Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: kno3 on November 12, 2008, 10:17:50 pm
-
Hello!
I bought a Cheddar steam plant and would like to restore it, because although technically in good shape, it looks pretty bad. The pictures show why: somebody has covered the boiler with wood strips and painted then everything with a thick black paint. The job was pretty careless, and several other parts got dirty too...
The steam engine is an old-style Cheddar oscillator with 2 cylinders, made from bronze castings. The red paint flakes off and will have to be removed.
I'd like to find out if the boiler is also made by Cheddar.
-
I have dismantled the wooden cover and found a pretty interesting boiler design beneath: it has two removable lids at both ends. these were both inaccessible because the wooden strips had been glues over.
There is a large fire tube with diagonal 3 water tubes and another 4 fire tubes for returning the gases and exhausting up the chimney, which is at the same end as the burner.
The back of the boiler is insulated with a material I can't identify, looks like thick cardboard to me, but must be something fireproof. What could I to replace it with?
My biggest problem is how to get rid of those ugly black paint marks. Could you recommend a good paint stripper?
-
Started taking the engine apart for a thorough cleaning. Here are some pictures of the process and some of the cleaned parts.
By the way, is there a setting to make the pictures appear as icons?
-
Have a look at this chap if you pm me ill give you his e-mail if you want .His name is Gerry Watson Ex cheddar guy will supply all the O rings and springs you need cheap
The boiler is cheddar return Flu type they work well
Proteus
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Clevedon-Steam
-
Thanks!
Somebody else just gave me his e-mail and I wrote to him to enquire about a water gauge and safety valve.
-
A note for anybody who has not played with steam and decides they are going to re build an old plant is to make shore you have marked all the parts so they go back together exactly the same as they came apart as they have all bedded in over the years and become very leaky if you put them back in the wrong places or even half a quarter turn out in the case of the bottom steam glands.
well thats what I have found anyway. O0
Proteus
-
Hi Kno3,
This is all very interesting to even us none steam heads!
By the way, is there a setting to make the pictures appear as icons?
We used to have a setting for thumbnails but it just annoyed everyone to have to
keep clicking on picture to enlarge them so we abandon that idea. :-))
-
Removing paint?
Dunk it in Nitromors for as long as you like.
Don't get any on your skin - wear rubber gloves.
Rub the gloop off with a washing-up sponge when the paint's lifting.
Repeat as necessary.
Rinse.
Andy #1963#
-
Hi Kno3, just a quick point in case you hadn't noticed, in the close up photo of the engine, the displacement lubricator is upside down !
Whoever had attacked the poor boiler with a yard broom and tar should be locked away. Keep up the good work.
-
I don't think Nitromors is available in Germany, but thanks anyway.
Yes I have noticed the upside-down lubricator. And even more, the person from whom I bought it said he ran the plant like this, without a safety valve!!! I guess he felt lucky.
-
try a brass wire brush for the boiler in a drill or a scotch Britte buffer, and if the paint is flaking on the engine the last one I did I used a blunt small screwdriver to scrape it off and a small brass polishing mop for finishing off . to re paint engine use Phoenix paints.
don't get any paint stripper in the boiler,
Proteus
-
I don't think Nitromors is available in Germany, but thanks anyway.
Ah...I see it's probably illegal. There's been a ban for the last ten years in Germany relating to dichloromethane-based paint strippers.
It IS pretty powerful stuff.
Andy #1963#
-
You could try carbonising the paint on the boiler with the CAREFUL use of a blowlamp flame and then dump the boiler into a supersaturated solution of Citric acid, That's made from Citric acid crystals dissolved in warm water until no more will dissolve, you can get them from a Chemist or Home brewing shop. (Citric acid is basically Lemon juice) After a period of dunking and scrubbing you can safely dispose of the solution by diluting further with water and pouring down the drain.
Probably a bit late now but you haven't damaged/scratched any machined mating surfaces? John Bogstandard will tell you how to get them back.
Regards Ian.
Sorry Malcolm forgot you are on here.
-
To me, what you have done is taken a potential bomb out of the hands of a dire idiot. Well done.
Steam is not to be treated lightly, but if looked after and treated with care (unlike this one) they are totally safe.
You have chosen a good classic there, and if you do the restoration correctly, you will never know it had ever been in the hands of someone who knew nothing about them, and will give you many years of pleasure.
Really, the only problem with the engine you are liable to come across, is where the conrods exit from the bottom of the cylinders, this area is prone to wear, as it takes all the forces of the engine thru it, and because there is no stuffing gland, it is liable to weep a little steam out of it. Nothing to really worry about, unless it is excessive, then it is just a matter of knocking up a couple of new ones out of bronze. I never had to do it to mine, but I have done the repair to others that were run without good lubrication. The piston rings take a couple of hours to bed new ones in, but once done, and again good lubrication, they should last a good couple of years, if not longer.
I am sure it will look like new by the time you have given it a bit of TLC.
Nice one.
John
-
Hi guys thanks for the input, a quick progress report:
I bought a can of gel paint stripper yesterday and had a go at the old paint. After painting it on all parts with a brush and leaving it for an hour or so, the paint just flaked off the engine bits. For finishing I only had to chip a few stubborn bits of paints in tighter corners with a toothpick. I'm very happy with the result.
The boiler needed a bit more work. The paint flaked off too, but a few marks still remained, I guess the had burned themselves in. So after washing the stripper away, I took a kitchen scrubbing pad (like scoth brite) and some liquid detergent for scrubbing kitchen sinks and had a go at it. The result is decent too. I'll post some pictures tonight.
-
I can't believe someone would run a boiler without a gauge glass or a safety valve. They really don't understand what the potential of these things are if abused.
You're doing a lovely job of bringing it back to life though and I bet you are going to end up with a lovely plant with many years of reliable running in it.
Excellent point by proteus though of putting things back exactly as they came apart. That's the whole point of running these things in is to get the parts to bed together and match perfectly.
Good luck though, many thanks for the build thread, I'm looking forward to seeing what you are going to end up with.
Something you might want to try sometime is using very fine wet and dry for cleaning up surfaces. You need a grade of about 2000, which you can usually get from automotive paint suppliers. Use warm water and detergent and gently rub the surfaces clean. You will find that a going over with a metal polish such as Duraglit or Brasso will then produce a very impressive shine.
I do this with brass pipework after I have finished soldering fittings to it and annealling and bending it to shape and they come up very nicely.
-
Thanks for the advice. As Proteus said, I marked the cylinders before disassembly, and put the parts into separate cups to know which belongs where.
Now it's time for some new pictures. This is the paint stripper in action. Smelly and smearing everything, but it seemed able to do the job.
-
Here's the end result of several hours of cleaning and scrubbing, last night. I have assembled it but still haven't decided if I should leave it like this or paint some parts again. Yesterday, when I bought the stripper, I also bought some dark green paint for the engine, but now, seeing how good the metal looks after removing the old paint, I'm not so sure any more.
I am planning to insulate the boiler with some nice wood strip in a natural finish and the steam pipe with cotton thread, perhaps adding a superheater.
What would you suggest?
Before and after:
-
That looks great what a difference , if you are going to paint it and want it to stay on think about Phoenix paints they do the right colour of Brunswick green and if you use there etch primer it will stay on
barbecue paint works for boilers, you can also get some lagging from the likes of Polly eng (Bruce) that can be put under the wood to stop it discoloring and to keep it cool on the out side, similar type of material that was in the end of the boiler to stop the flame overheating the back of the boiler.
Proteus
-
Hey,,,,,,you did a great job with this,,,,,,,Bot i sai Paint it ,,look more real......
regards Bernhard
-
Now you can see why these are such a nice engine to own. Just look at the quality of the investment base and standard casting.
I just wished I had bought a dozen sets when they were available as a machine your own kit.
Modern day Puffins aren't a patch on these. But to make something like this nowadays would most probably double the price.
You are doing a wonderful job of restoration.
John
-
Guys, thanks.
@Bogstandard, you're right, the cast cylinders and base are very well made. I didn't think much of oscillators before, because many are made to be really cheap, thus poor quality, but after seeing these old Puffin engines in Bogstandard's pictures and elsewhere, I changed my mind. And then got lucky to spot this one on Ebay.
@Proteus, who is Polly eng (Bruce) ? Do you have a web address?
I'm still thinking about the paint. The green I bought is from automotive supply. I hope it's ok for the engine.
About the boiler, I reasoned that if I'm going to have it lagged in wood anyway, painting isn't really necessary, as only the copper ends will show, which could even be an interesting feature?
Now I need to find a suitable water gauge and safety valve for these weird Imperial threads. Before calling people who make such things new, I'd like to ask you if you happen to have such old Cheddar parts, or know anyone who does?
-
Have a look at these
http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/
http://www.maccsteam.com/Fittings/Fittings.html
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/index.asp
Ceramic Fibre Boiler Lagging
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Shim_Packs_and_Gasket_Material.html
Proteus
-
I notice that your engine is the later version, it has the extended rear crankpin and the extra drillings in the base. This is for fitting the custom engine driven water pump. In fact it was another little oscillator with a fixed 1/8" ram size. It was not designed for filling the boiler up on the run, that would cool the water too much, but to just put a drop in to stop the boiler going down too fast, with the excess being bypassed back to the water tank. With it fitted it was thought you could at least double the run time before topping up the boiler.
I modified my engine to take this pump, and it worked well, but found that really 45 to 50 minutes was too long for a steaming session and duly removed it.
I suppose I should really fit it back on, as the engine would be worth a lot more with it fitted.
The threads used on your boiler are standard Model Engineering threads, and are really a UK standard for boilers. I could measure mine if you want, just in case you could get someone to make them for you.
John
-
Oh yes please do. Thanks for the kind offer.
And, by the way, since you seem to have no use for that pump, why not let me have it? %)
-
Oh yes please do. Thanks for the kind offer.
And, by the way, since you seem to have no use for that pump, why not let me have it? %)
cos I'd like it :-)
BTW I'd suggest Jerry at Clevedon Steam for the water gauge and safety valve for the engine. He's ex-Cheddar Models and very helpful. He replaced the damaged water gauge on the vertical boiler from in Fair Constance.
BTW congratulations. You've done wonders on that kit. It looks like it should now!
Cheers
Guy
-
Looks like a different plant already, superb job. You can buy planking in any width and thickness for the cladding and you are lucky as you have the brass bands already to hold them in place.
I tend to think that carefull painting of the cast parts of the engine in green would look better than simply bare metal all over. I would just leave the machined surfaces bare metal.
-
I did talk to Jerry of Clevedoin Steam but he doesn't have the water gauge yet. It will take a couple of months, he said.
-
try Polly eng ask for Bruce Davey he will know what you need for a sight glass , he knows all about cheddar models.you will need a elbow and a couple of spacers as well . Macc or Polly will be able to supply the correct safety valve make shore it is set correct.
over not painting the boiler , you may find it will tarnish very quickly, it a lot different animal to the spirit fired one you have been using there is a lot of heat of them .
one last thing in one of the pictures of how it arrived it shows the bearers in the wrong way these are the supports the boiler sits on the chamfer goes in the corner to help it sit straight , if you turn the around the boiler sits on the base and heats it up, picture
Proteus,
-
Thanks, I know what you mean. I turned them the right way now.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0xp9cNVcWU
Here's a test of the Puffin engine (only) under steam, with a smaller Pippit boiler.
-
looks to be running nice ..why did you not use the speed regulator on the engine ??
Proteus
-
Because it was hot %)
-
Time for an update:
I finally got a suitable water gauge for the Cheddar return flue boiler. Jerry Watson of Clevedon Steam made it for me, he does very nice work.
Here it is mounted:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3462/3216824126_f6d7bc525f.jpg)
Also decided to add some wood insulation (walnut). It doesn't extend the whole length of the boiler because the left side is the smoke box.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3411/3216825070_a7014b6a37.jpg)
Oiling the wood:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3215971871_1c3fe4f59e.jpg)
The almost finished product (the chimney is borrowed from a Saito boiler):
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3215972861_77a4c9a22e.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/3215973921_5c5a33078c.jpg)
-
Wow!, lovely job. :-))
-
What a great looking bit of kit,So impressed I might even have a go at a steam powered boat myself.
Who else apart from Puffin manufactures them ?
chris
-
tomocj:
Before setting off on steam engines have a read of the last 2 editions of "Model Boats" where a well known Mayhemmer has started an excellent series on this subject, especially for beginners. (Mind he would be far too modest to draw your attention to it!)
Roger in France
-
Who is that mayhemer?
Tomocj, thanks, there are several manufacturers of model steam engines, ranging from cheaply made tin toys to superbly engineered steam plants. One of the manufacturers of these high end engines is a member of this forum too, Nick Monahan, and he has a very nice website. If you need links to manufacturers, let me know, I can e-mail them to you.
-
What a great looking bit of kit,So impressed I might even have a go at a steam powered boat myself.
Who else apart from Puffin manufactures them ?
chris
Puffin or do you mean Cheddar ?
Proteus
-
I mean cheddar ,have I had a senior moment ?
-
I only posted that in case you where going to do a search for items, and spent ages not finding anything. keep an eye on ebay
do you sail close to home as I have to go that way to often to the outlaws
Proteus
-
Could I ask a stupid question?
I just finished reading "Scale Model Ship Propulsion", by Tom Gorman.
All through the book he mentions Cheddar and Hemmens products. (He even says there are no model Compound Steam Engines! That's a laugh! I have 2 Twin Stuart Compounds, and a Stuart Triple Compound. Opening the book, I see it was printed in 2003. I rest my case.)
I have some Hemmens models, and would love some Cheddars too, but their website seems to just refer to Loco boilers now. Are they still making steam boilers for other than locos? Are they still making the ABC control? (The Automatic Boiler Control.)
On the subject of Tom Gorman books, I have six or more. I shouldn't have bothered. Two of them are identical, but with changed covers to "suck in the suckers"! Several of the others have exactly the same photos, articles, even chapters in them. Now, over £100 lighter, I shall never buy a Tom Gorman anything again.
It's just like the record albums in the 60s. A couple of good topics (hits), and the rest scattered through different books (albums), photos and all, and sell it again. Records were notorious for having one or two hits, and six albums later, you got the same songs over again.
I've been suckered quite enough thank you.
Neil.
P.S. I have the books here to prove my claims.
-
you cannot get the ABC yet, but you can get the Electronic gas valve. Ive just got one and they are as good as they where and much better I think than the mechanical ones
http://www.stuartmodels.com/accessories.cfm/mainaccess_type/9/the_type/Electronic%20Gas%20Valve
Peter
-
Neil, Cheddar Models ceased trading a number of years ago however the boilers continue to be made by Tim Taschimowitz, who used to work for them, and can be purchased here:
http://www.cheddarvalleysteam.co.uk/
As Peter says the EGV is still available through Stuart Turner models and they also continue to produce an oscillating 'V' twin engine.
-
however the boilers continue to be made by Tim Taschimowitz, who used to work for them, and can be purchased here:
And as an addition, if you ring and speak to Claire, be warned, she is ALSO a boiler maker par excellence O0
Regards Ian.
-
And as an addition, if you ring and speak to Claire, be warned, she is ALSO a boiler maker par excellence O0
Regards Ian.
They even named a boat after heir.. ;)
Peter
-
They even named a boat after heir.. ;)
Peter
Have Tim and Claire got a child then? :-)
Guy
-
not heard about any children, but rember this
-
not heard about any children, but remember this
Yes I do indeed. My post was an attempt at a joke based on the typo in the previous post "heir" for "her" Ah well.... :-)
Guy
-
yes I thought it was that but I always think this is a place to relax and talk model boats, not a spelling compertition semi final. :} :} :}
peteR
-
yes I thought it was that but I always think this is a place to relax and talk model boats, not a spelling compertition semi final. :} :} :}
peteR
Sorry if I upset anyone! If it had been a spelling mistake as such I'd not have made a joke out of it. Since it looked like a genuine typo I weakened.
Anyway 'nuff said. back to the topic.
Guy
-
No not upset at all , my spelling is prob the worst on the site it does not bother me in the least but I know a few people who are new to pc's and who have spent most of there lives in manual jobs and not had to write anythink can be very rusty and a few have been put off posting, I was put of one site because it was like being back in school and at one time a few people had pop's at members who had English as a second language. I just look at the boats and as long as I can get an idea what it's about all the better.
I hate text speak.
peter
-
yes I thought it was that but I always think this is a place to relax and talk model boats, not a spelling compertition semi final. :} :} :}
peteR
Thank goodness for spell check, it picks up most errors. unfortunately nor grammatical ones. I did like the play on words.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS It cought two for me (unfortunatly & gramerical )
-
Hi!
I just finished restoring a Puffin engine I bought a few weeks ago on ebay.
I thought you might be interested in a few pics. It was easy to remove the old paint with my Dremel after indicating all of the parts to put them together in the same order later.
Before I painted the parts, I washed them thouroughly with brush cleaner and only touched them with rubber gloves afterwards. I have chosen Humbrol Royal blue as colour and brus-painted three layers of colour.
When reassembling, I realised that one of the piston rods has been bended, so I has to order a new one. They where very helpful at Stuart Models and provided one free of charge. A Clevedon Steam I ordered new springs and piston rings as the old ones where a bit worn out.
With all the new parts, reassembling was quite straightforward. I made some Cylinderhead-gaskets out ob baked paper, a method I also used with my Anton Quartz. I am quite happy with the result. The engine runs well on compressed air but I didn't check under steam Still have to decide what boiler I will buy (Stuart, Maccsteam or Cheddarvalley?) It was mentioned in this thread that the latter would produce the old Cheddar boiler? I this with ceramic burner?
So here are the pics:
Kaspar
-
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa59/anotherbaldrick/IMG_0453_zpsoxsvstaf.jpg)Deja Vu , all over again.
I am making reference to this 2 year old post as I am embarking on a restoration of an identical steam plant. Though perhaps not so much a restoration as a good clean and tart up.. I intend it to go into my Topaz which I am starting on.
One thing I would like to ask more experienced members, in order that the boiler is level and the engine is angled to align with the shaft and propllor would it be in order to cut the upstand on the brass base and bend the base to turn down to achieve the correct angle. ?
(http://[URL=http://s200.photobucket.com/user/anotherbaldrick/media/IMG_0453_zpsoxsvstaf.jpg.html][IMG]http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa59/anotherbaldrick/IMG_0453_zpsoxsvstaf.jpg)[/URL][/img]
-
Yes you can bend the base. But before cutting/bending (which is permanent), try this easily revesible method: use longer screws for fixing the front of the engine base, add a suitable amount of washers or spacers under the engine and you can have it inclined this way.
-
Yes you can bend the base. But before cutting/bending (which is permanent), try this easily revesible method: use longer screws for fixing the front of the engine base, add a suitable amount of washers or spacers under the engine and you can have it inclined this way.
Many thanks KNO3 for that valuable tip , checking on the plans it would appear that the spacers would only need to be 4mm to achieve the tilt, I will go with that.
Benefit of a wet Easter I spent a bit of time with some solvent and metal polish and found the engine to be as good as new and paintwork unblemished, no discernible wear . A bit of a result, only thing I have had to do is clean out the displacement lubricator, the steam oil had turned to axle grease, can't have been run for a long year.
One thing I note is a small degree of tolerance on the bearing hole, back flywheel to piston crankpin. I assume this a designed in machining tolerance not wear, as the pin has to engage between two flywheels on separate mains shafts and a zero tolerance fit would be impractical.
-
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa59/anotherbaldrick/IMG_0461_zpsmycdcjwi.jpg)
-
Looking good! I like a green engine, it looks proper, like a Lister or Gardener :-))
Regards boilers, I know it has been said before so don't grumble at me, but beware of the rules and regs regarding them and running them in public places as if not tested and certfied safe, no club would allow them on their water due to insurance.
If the boiler capacity is below 3 Bar/litre then I do not think it needs such a strenuous test, but to be on the safe side you will know your copper beauty is sound and ready for lots of sailing :-)) :}
-
Those are great running and looking engines. The castings are beautiful and look much better than the later machined from solid.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding tolerance.
-
Those are great running and looking engines. The castings are beautiful and look much better than the later machined from solid.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding tolerance.
Hi KNO3.
On my photo the RH cylinder bank has two discs . Of these the left is the crank disc and this holds the pin on which the big end runs. The RH disc is the follower disc and has a bearing hole in which the pin is a free fit . My concern is the degree of tolerance at this point pin to bearing hole. Presumably it does not cause any running noise as it is under drive and not oscillation. pin O/D is 3.2mm hole diameter is 3.35mm ( 0.15 mm tolerance) 5 thou.
-
I see now. I wouldn't worry about that tolerance. It certainly won't cause noise.
-
Hi don't want to sound picky but I would certainly have some protection for the gauge glass looks very vulnerable to accidental damage because of the length
Cheers
John
-
Thanks All.
There is one matter that I would like some help with. I wish to get the old boiler tested before I decorate it but am having trouble finding a certified inspector. I am not a member of a club as there is just not one near me and the local model engineering society gave me the brush off. I have tried Google and several societies without luck. Could someone please give me some guidance on how to locate one please .
cheers.
-
Baldrick......I suppose our first challenge is to understand if Sudergeona is actually Surry in the UK.......
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=va86AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=Sudergeona&source=bl&ots=HDPvGWoSni&sig=j5x4X3JOijQyO3bV9XDllh540VI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjh4uyckZTMAhXEE5QKHQqsCJYQ6AEISjAH
If this is the case, GOOGLE does find a number of Model Engineering/Steam Groups within a reasonable proximity.....
An unfortunate fact in life is that model steam rail appears to be 100 fold in members over model steam boats and as such the steam train people only see a steam boat person as someone who wants their boiler certified.....
You could ask yourself why you did not see eye to eye with the Model Engineering Society?......good luck....... Derek
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV8tb7kZTMAhWEGZQKHTHqD0IQFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modeleng.org%2Fukclubs.htm&usg=AFQjCNG-8wiwuGPVafltTVi7H3tanfbJ0A
-
Thank you for your reply Derek. Yes I have an overdeveloped penchant for the ludicrous which led me to use the early Saxon name for my location. I have to confess that I was a bit miffed by the response from our local model rail steam society which is on the list you kindly sent me . I thought my overture to them was a very friendly request for help on the basis that "we are all into steam together" and did not merit the s*d off response it got. I assume their in club tester is not insured to take commissions from outside their club but there you go.
My main hope was to find a freelance engineer qualified to carry out the testing. I have since found Farncare Inspection Ringwood Hants but further searchin leads me to believe he may no longer trading.. I will ring him Monday and also try sme of the other names on your list
thanks again
-
I have asked a friend who I know from a model engineer society if he knows anyone who can do it in your area. Do you have a preference for a local inspector, or would you travel to get the boiler tested?
-
I'm sure someone at the Guildford MES will test a boiler for you. They're usually a friendly lot.
http://www.gmes.org.uk/
-
Thank you for both replies, that's great. Having looked at the Guildford mes site I note they have a separate section for small steam plants. I will talk to them and if they are as friendly as they seem will join if they will have me. Might try talking them into starting a boat section .
-
Excuse my rather off topic question, but I am curious: if you have, say, a Mamod SL1 loco are you supposed to have its boiler tested each year in the UK to be able to run it (where?)...