Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: john54 on November 19, 2008, 03:30:27 pm
-
So Ladies & Gents
Whats the answer to the Pirates of EYL (Somalia) then?
-
Submarine patrols ? The few surface ships of the various navies seem to be easily avoided due to sophisticated equipment used by the pirates. The thought that a submarine might pop up at any moment might make them be a bit wary. A couple of towed decoys would make them think the area was infested with underwater weapons. Plus of course get rid of the warlords and corrupt government and get economic stability so people dont have to resort to big-time crime. Remember Mogodishou and the starving hordes ? >:-o
-
We only have to look to fairly recent history , convoys and Q-ships.
The shipping insurance companies could force all shipping companies to wait in designated areas to be escorted in 20 ship convoys through the Gulf of Aden and down the East of Africa. Leaflets should be dropped onto Somalia to explain that ANY vessel of any size that approaches any warship , merchant ship or convoy would simply be blasted out of the water without any warning shots being fired.
The Q-Ships would be the same as WW1 and WW2 , take a relatively old cargo or oil tanker , fit it out with 12 heavy machine guns each side along with plenty of Milan anti-tank guided missiles ( wire or RF guided by a trained operator ) which have a range of a few thousand meters and would sink anything up to 1000t deadweight without too much trouble and man it with 100 trainee Army/Navy/Airforce Regiment recruits as part of their training ( need a few good officers and NCO's to fire the Milan's and give orders but that is it , combine real training and anti-pirate patrol and save money on both !! )
Time to fire first and ask questions ( if we can be bothered ) later. Force is the only thing these Pirates will respect and if we declare that no vessels are permitted more than 12nm from their own coast ( the start of international waters ) stating that any found will be sunk then they will get the hint eventually !!
-
Q boats! O0
-
I hear an Indian navy ship as just dealt with one of the mother ships.
Colin H
-
Piracy on the seas has been going on for centuries, ever since man took to the water... you will never stop it.
-
The Somalians would appear to be just getting started. For at least the last 30 years piracy has been rife in and around the Malacca Straits, and for a liitle less time: off the Nigerian coast. I have had first hand experience of these pirates in the Malacca Straits....they do tend to be of Indonesian origin. Unless the pirates have night vision equipment then at night one ship looks much like another. Although a warship can be quite distinctive. Be a bit stupid to attack one of those! But an RFA can (and does) look a bit like a merchant ship as far as profile / lights etc. are concerned. Our solution was a very simple one. Before we reached a "dangerous" area we would embark half a dozen Marines (or some other outfit that know how to fire a rifle) and have them patrol the decks. If a commercial ship has its radar on then any approaching boat should be picked up. So the deck patrol would be forwarned. A couple of warning shots was always very effective. So that would be my solution to the problem. Cheap and easy. But perhaps some "shipowners" are using piracy as an insurance scam....so they wouldn't be interested. Thereby opening another can of worms.
Some cruise liners are employing the "audible" method, to blast the pirates with sound. The whole thing seems very preventable if only owners and National Governments were really interested.
-
When I saw "pirates" on the forum list I thought someone had made a thread about solicitors......sadly I can't have a rant any more {-) {-)
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a few single barrel shielded Oerlikons (&/or just good heavy auto rifles), some decent remote control armoured searchlights, and a decent radar would surely go a long way in putting such types off?
One slight snag in lobbing really nice heavy stuff at them from a freighter or tanker, is that they just might start lobbing something the same size or bigger back?!!! :embarrassed: With no armour, RPG/anti tank stuff could be very unpleasant......... {:-{
-
News reports now confirm That INS Tabar an Indian frigate requested a pirate mother ship to stop for a search.
The pirates answer was that if they were approached they would blow up the frigate, they then opened fire.
Tabar returned fire and the pirate vessel sank after blowing up. One down a few more to go.
These guys cannot be very clever opening fire on a FRIGATE, lets just hope the rest are just as daft.
Colin H.
-
The pirate problem can also have another knock on effect... any vessel genuinly in difficulties and in need of help will get ignored and maybe even shot at! When I first heard about this on the news, the first thing to spring to mind was Q Ships. A few sinkings will help to quell their activities I'm sure. Congratulation to the boys on the Indian frigate... well done!
-
Dear Colin H.,
Well, if they are wandering around with bigger vessels like that, these areas would be ideal for submarine torpedo practice and general training... just shadow the area in general and navy vessels and ships. Non compliance... boom! :-))
Regards, Bernard
-
But of course, as far as our Government is concerned, it's OK to run the destroyer/frigate force right down as there is no obvious need for them these days. >:-o
-
But of course, as far as our Government is concerned, it's OK to run the destroyer/frigate force right down as there is no obvious need for them these days. >:-o
I can see it soon the Warrior,Belfast,Victory etc etc will be again an the high waters again O0
-
When my ship was out there we had a "minor incident".
A "fishing boat" decided to try and stop us to "inspect our papers".
What wasn't known was a detachment of Royal Marines complete with heavy personal weapons and live ammo were left on board.
1 RPG could be seen in the wheelhouse of the "fishing boat".
They radioed that they had made a mistake when 10 heavy machine guns and 2 rocket launchers were aimed directly at them.
They "retired", That was the fastest I had ever seen a fishing boat go.
We did have a good laugh though when the Royal Marines asked for permission to fire and was refused, weren't they disappointed!! Visibly so.
Bob
-
One sure way to bring them to there knees. Get Gordon Brown and his cronies to organise the finances, that should bring them up short :-))
Actually
I second Q boats
-
just send in a couple of Polaris and Trident subs, along with a few ohio's and Typhoons, and let rip the magic mushrooms and let us have Lake Somalia
-
...in other words NUKE them!
-
When I saw "pirates" on the forum list I thought someone had made a thread about solicitors.
Or bankers :}
Peter
-
The German frigate "Karlsruhe", on her way back home from the Persian gulf received an signal from the Egyptian merchantvessel "Andinet" about being attacked by two pirate speedboat. The frigate was sending her helicopter and the pirates stopped the attack and went away. Later the frigate received a signal from the British tanker "Trafalgar" also being attacked by pirates. Same here: helicopter sendet, and the pirates just broke up their attack. The German navy has to help in case of piracy but it is not allowed to use armed force. This law will be changed soon.
But not only the pirates making their cut, the guys behind the scene in London or Dubai are taking the bigger slice of the cake. Lets hunt them to... <*<
-
Pirates of the Caribbean has a lot to answer for; In romanticising Piracy in the public eye the press has blinkered people to the real threat to the seafarer; over 200 ships were pirated last year; some of these have completely vanished ;2 masters and one chief officer and at least one engineering officer were shot or beaten to death; a lot of crew members [200+ ]have been imprisoned many beaten and robbed of personal possions;; Under international law they are not allowed to be armed. if they open fire or repel boarders they can be arrested ====if any of the pirates are injured, by the local government who often have a vested interest Most of the Navies in the areas are too thin on the ground to do much and if it comes to a hostage situation---- do not have the trained personal or equipment on board to intervene without a blood bath.
as a foot note under ENGLISH law Piracy is one of the two things you can still be hung for.
Freebooter [Jimmy]
-
One or two small prob's sending nuclear sub's to find /fight pirates
1] most of them work in small fast motor boats 18 to 25 feet long armed with 1 or 2 RPG 7's with approx 8 to 10 reloads + at least 1 heavy machine gun + up to a doz AK 47's Total speed 40-50 kts total worth £6 or £7 000
Sub Le nth Approx 250m+; speed 30kts; armed with; Torp's Yes approx 20 ICBMs Pos.bly up to 16; cruse missiles prob'ly up to 12; harpoon missiles prob 8 to 10;.....Deck gun?? NO; machine gun pos. 1 light or med GMP; small arms a few pistols and maybe half a doz sub machine guns total worth ???Millions
So who Win's in a fight;.... unless he's completely stupid my money is on the motor boat to get clean away; and if the sub is crazy enough to surface the motor boat can cause so much damage with RP-G's and machine guns that you might lose the sub or even have it captured.
The Q ships [not boats--SHIPS] in the 1st & 2nd WW were designers to sink Submarines
Freebooter [Jimmy]
-
Thirty or so years ago the pirates, (or their fathers) were subsistence fishermen. Then the big boys turned up with fleets of big trawlers and emptied the fishing grounds, destroying the nets of the locals and occasionally running them down. Their government, lacking both resources and any real authority, could do nothing. So, wanting to eat, and having been taught by good teachers that crime does pay, they took to crime. A bit like the robber barons who infested the Rhine valley in the middle ages, they extracted tribute from passing trade. It seems that they spend freely when they collect, and a whole local economy has grown up. The people running the area are the local warlords, and they benefit as much as anybody else around there, so there is no incentive to stop.
The punitive measures proposed will no doubt satisfy briefly, but they will not cure the problem. Chances are that unless huge resources can be piled in, they won't even keep the lid on it. Most likely they will store up another generation of grudges to be worked out in the future.
-
ive got the answer to the pirates a couple of ex service blokes two gpmg a few hundred rounds that would sort them out
-
How come there shipping lines aren't hiring
mercenaries security guards if you know you are entering known pirate waters?!?!?
-
PROFITS
-
That has been considered Martin but the shipping companies don't like the idea as they feel it just inflames the situation and there is no guarantee that the on board guards will be sufficient to beat off a determined attack anyway. I believe when it was tried recently the two guards ran out of ammo and had to jump overboard to escape the pirates.
At some point the international community is going to have to take a proper grip on the situation though. At the moment it seems to be only the French who are acting firmly but this can have tragic consequences as the death of the yachtsman last week demonstrated.
Colin
-
Yes, sadly the French response resulted in the death of a Frenchman. However, I think this is the only way to go as negotiating or persuading these thugs is a lost cause.
The only things which will improve the situation is a stable government in the country which provides opportunities for its citizens.
Until then (and because such a thing is unlikely for a long, long time) the thugs need to know that there will be violent resistance and rescues which will most likely result in their death.
(And I am a peaceful, wishy-washy liberal!)
Roger in France
-
2 years ago we were transitting an area known for pirate activity.
A small fishing boat came up to us and ordered us to stop to examine our "papers".
They realised they had "made a mistake" when a few dozen Royal Marines with heavy machine guns and grenade launchers popped up and aimed at their ship.
Funnily enough we weren't bothered again!!
Bob
-
International law regarding Pirates is a mess...
And British law and US law make the situation even more confusing... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122757123487054681.html
By the way, piracy on the high seas has been taking place since man first got in to a boat.. Egyptians, Romans, Greeks... they all had problems with piracy.
-
Even Julius Caesar was captured by pirates and had to be ransomed. I think he got his own back later though!
Colin
-
Oops...!
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090330/twl-pirates-shock-as-they-pick-on-the-wr-3fd0ae9.html
"Poor judgment by the pirates turned out to be a real opportunity for seven nations representing three task forces to work together and strike a momentous blow for maritime safety and security."
It did take German, Greek, Dutch & Spanish naval ships together with a Spanish marine aircraft & US marine choppers 5 hours to catch the 7 pirates though %)
-
there was something on the tv a while ago about a large oil tanker which frequented waters known for piracy and the crews only defense against them were hoses pumping water off the side the ship. The crew didnt seem to confident in their defense to say the least.
Im probably just being ignorant but how can a small fishing boat board a huge oil tanker if theres no ladders etc... Or do the pirates have some serious weapons which could sink the ship?
What does everyone think about the americans shooting the 3 pirates holding an american captain? I thought it was a little risky as the 2nd or 3rd pirate to be shot could have shot the captain in retaliation. Hey i wasnt there so all i have to go by is what was said in the papers. Certainly you would think if the pirates were surrouned by a pack of american destroyers they wouldnt have much choice but to surrender?
-
The pirates use grapnels and ropes to get aboard the ships and they have machine guns and grenade launchers to intimidate the crew - fire hoses are not much of a response there! They don't use fishing boats but fast motor skiffs with powerful outboard motors which can do twice the speed of the target ship.
I would imagine that the recent rescue involved a number of American SEALs (their equivalent of our SBS) on the American naval vessel with sniper guns trained on the pirate's lifeboat at all times (it was being towed by the US ship at the time). All the pirates would have been shot simultaneously. The guns they used would have literally blown the pirates's heads off so not much opportunity for retaliation!
The pirates tried to bluff the Americans on the basis that their friends were coming to their assistance and relying on the complicated situation with International Law. They guessed wrong.
Colin
-
As most ships in the Gulf of Aden are heading to or from the Suez Canal, surely it's not rocket science to organise a convoy system? There are apparently Naval vessels from plenty of countries there now, so escorted North bound and South bound convoys shouldn't be too difficult to arrange. Yes, the pirates have high speed skiffs etc, but they would not outrun a helicopter, nor a rigid raider, and warships are unlikely to run out of ammunition, large or small bore, dealing with a few pirates. When is someone in authority going to see sense? >:-o >>:-( >:-o
Danny
-
Convoy entails delays = extra costs. As Regiment says - Profits!
Some things never change.
Colin
-
i've been told by a reliable friend that the american forces knew exactly what was going on on the covered boat with highly sensitive listening devices,
they waited till dusk for the light to fail. and using heat sensitive cameras similar to the thermal imaging cameras, took the three out with ease and with no danger to the hostage captain.........just perfect timing.
and quite brilliant to. :-)) :-))
-
Part of the answer lies with the level of crew manning. Reduced manning means profits for the owners, but leaves the ship vulnerable to not only piracy but inability to deal with any "life-threatening" emergencies that might occur. Like yachtsmen (deep sea type) they rely on "somebody else" to come and rescue them. There are just not sufficient crew members to patrol / guard the ship in areas of high danger. We used to have a minimum manning scale for ships, but this seems to have been ditched through "owners" pressure.
How far offshore do these so-called pirates operate? Seems to me that they are just a bunch of illiterate thugs with access to modern weaponry. In my "commerciial" days around Indonesia it was common practice to fully secure all access points to the interior of the ship. I agree that rocket launchers raise the game a bit but restraining access would be a good start. But at the end of the day it comes down to the level of manning of the ship. BY.
-
I read a report on the release of the American MV's captain.
The Captain of the MV had a gun at his head, and it looked like his shooting was imminent.
The Captain of the Navy vessel then gave his snippers (3 I think) permission to take the shot.
-
Pirates hit navy ship 'in error' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8296016.stm
-
Should have gone to Specsavers
-
Surprised there were any left to capture.
-
Here is the easy answer to pirates... Just ban them due to their dirty engine... {:-{
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/movies/2010021075_ladywashington08m.html
-
New water cannon to deter pirates from boarding ships
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8473753.stm?ls
-
Does not look that powerful from the footage..
-
Probably a silly comment, but why go there? If the earth is circular, then instead of going through the pirate infested waters, go the other way round...simples. No?
Rich
-
Probably a silly comment, but why go there? If the earth is circular, then instead of going through the pirate infested waters, go the other way round...simples. No?
Few ships do round the world voyages. If you are going fro A to B then visiting Z,Y,X etc. on the way is maybe not the most advantageous route....
-
rich the Suez canal is one bit short cut from east to west. Saves Shipping company thousands in fuel bill and time ,so that's why they go that why and take the risk.
John
-
The shipping companies don't take the risk, other than financial of course, it's the poor seafarers on the ships who take the risks - no change there then!
-
Does not look that powerful from the footage..
They reckon that with the right pumps, the water jet is like being hit on the head with the large size bowling ball.
-
This programme on radio 4 gives a lot better understanding of what it is really about and well worth listening to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pxll6
-
The only way to fix the problem would be to fix the country where most of them are coming from. Somalia is the problem but I don't have an answer on how to fix it. <:(
Q-ships seems like a good idea, but could lead to an escalation of the problem. If ships start carrying guns then the pirates will simply bring bigger ones. Perhaps even just opening fire on vessels and inflecting heavy damage to them and inevitably lead to an increase in the loss of lives.
Escorting vessels through the area with warships seems like a good idea for a deterrent but who is going to cover the costs?
O.k. serious thoughts aside, how about some less serious ideas?
Put a huge reward for the capture of pirates and fill the sea with gun crazy mercs and let them all fight it out for a while.
Impose a world navy blockade on the coast of Somalia so that if any boat leaves the sure it is staring down massive aircraft carriers and escort fleets.
Better still get all the big Battleships that are mothballed (or not) in America, crew them, arm them and have those patrol the waters.
Surely Captain Nemo and the Nautilus could be a solution?
Legalise Piracy and impose huge taxes on them so they can't afford to do it anymore?
More contraversally send them Gordan Brown to run their organisation and finances and they will be broke in a few years and (too far?)..
-
Do 2 of the above things,
Send them gordon brown
legalise piracy
And he will screw or tax them to death,like he is doing to us
The goverment are legal pirates,they rob us,so it will work
-
Just tell bankers they will get bonuses if Piracy ceases - job done!
-
I noticed in the paper today,that some Somali Pirates are possibly looking to get into the Scrappage scheme,..they hijacked a container ship full of what they thought was New Hyundai cars,..turned out it was full of old Bangers, {-)
Wullie
-
Escorting vessels through the area with warships seems like a good idea for a deterrent but who is going to cover the costs?
I note my taxes already pay for a navy - isn't this their job? Why should it cost more? %)
Andy
-
Biting off more than they can chew?
Barry M
Quote:
U.S. Navy Captures 5 Pirates After Firefight
Suspected Somali pirates fired on a U.S. Navy warship off East Africa early Thursday in what appeared to be a ransom-seeking attack on an American guided missile frigate, officials said. The USS Nicholas returned fire on the pirate skiff, sinking it and confiscating a nearby mother ship. Five pirates were taken into custody, said Navy Lt. Patrick Foughty, a spokesman.
International naval forces have stepped up their enforcement of the waters off East Africa in an effort to thwart a growing pirate trade.
"If you think of the kind of young men who are doing this, they go out into the middle of the ocean in a tiny boat. They might not always make rational decisions, and they often attack things that are bigger than they should (attack)," said Middleton. "It's also quite possible that they don't have a full understanding of the targets they are attacking. Perhaps they just see a big ship they think is a worth a lot of money," he said.
Source : CBS2
Unquote
-
If I was a Pirate I don't think I would take on something big and Grey (assuming it was Grey) as big grey thinks tend to shoot back.. %%
-
I was listening to a radio 4 programme a while ago and they interviewed a Captain that had fought off pirates. he had many large pieces of heavy wood aboard and he got his crew to line them up along the sides of the deck. When the pirates came along side in their fast boat the pushed one of these "sleepers" off the side in front of the pirates who then had to swerve away from the ship in order to avoid wrecking their boat. even though the pirates hit the ship with a couple of grenades, the crew just held their nerve and pushed more wood over the side until they gave up.
The captain said that they have boarding ladders with hooks at the top. when they get them hooked over the rails and get a man on the bottom rung, the weight is almost impossible to unhook.
http://www.idaratmaritime.com/wordpress/?p=229
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/5436442/British-captain-describes-fighting-off-Somali-pirates-in-Arabian-Sea.html
-
In all honesty and seriousness I don't think you can lay the blame on the "big grey ships". In times of yore (ie prior to 1997) I think the Rules of Engagement were pretty clear to all COs. Piracy is not a recent phenomenon, nor is hostage taking. But it does appear that nowadays the "guy on the spot" (especially if he/she is British) have the "guiding light" sitting more of less permanently on the shoulders. This problem will never go away until the Whitehall brigade just let the bod on the spot take the action he has been trained to evaluate and act on in an appropriate manner. Assuming you are referring to the incident involving one of the newish RFAs, the press approbrium on that ship was surely misdirected, and should really be aimed at Whitehall. BY.
-
If I was a Pirate I don't think I would take on something big and Grey (assuming it was Grey) as big grey thinks tend to shoot back.. %%
It was definitely grey, it was a USN Missile Frigate.
They caught the 3 on that boat, sank it and then got it's "Mother Ship" with another 5 on board and then took the ship captive.
The problem they have is where do they drop them off?
-
The problem they have is where do they drop them off?
The stern preferably....
-
It was definitely grey, it was a USN Missile Frigate.
They caught the 3 on that boat, sank it and then got it's "Mother Ship" with another 5 on board and then took the ship captive.
The problem they have is where do they drop them off?
Send them back to the Mainland, How big are the Missiles :} :}
-
An open helicopter door at 5000 feet is a lot cheaper than a missile and less open to misinterpretation.!!!!! Just return them to place of origin :-))
Freebooter
-
On OZ television last night we had one hour about HDMS Absalon & pirates....very interesting vessel & deployment ....here is the link :-)) ...Derek
http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearch/redirect.jhtml?qid=b926b55247bbbbeaac163214f32e7705&searchfor=HDMS+Absalon&action=pick&pn=1&si=&n=77ce8070&ptb=IxbEzp1NM9MK2d2eur41Dw&ptnrS=ZJman000&ss=&st=bar&cb=ZJ&pg=GGmain&ord=3&tpr=&redirect=mPWsrdz9heamc8iHEhldEQHBHsoXTirFdeXdUcT5Rmn2N9RhLxFm9PrJH29vzf16B%2FlpgqNZGl3vCWCY13AFDlgHfcGYmZKHm9gtIL%2Frr9HoeMS3p9BrRQRtSfRInxOHxkMJeVu1hWYecCgpPh19%2Fw%3D%3D&ct=AR
-
ah yeah, I saw that a couple of months ago. BTW, has anyone here tried the kit of the HDMS Abslalon?
-
My apologies {-) Minime ....being in the worlds best OZ convict great southern land :-))..........we obviously get broadcasts after their use by date in the northern hemisphere :P
However to answer your question on the model......if you corrected your spelling from HDMS Abslalon .....to the vessels correct name HDMS Absalon & searched in Mayhem you will find the latest response ....Derek ;)
-
and I thought our broadcasts were late... I'll do a search then and since it isn't 4.30 in the morning I might even be able to type it right in the search bar :-)
-
If I was a Pirate I don't think I would take on something big and Grey (assuming it was Grey) as big grey thinks tend to shoot back.. %%
Except when they are flying the White Ensign. ( <:( "those naughty Iranians took my ipod and called me names")
-
A Cunning Plan? http://www.p-trap.eu/
Barry M
-
Would have been more convincing had they employed an English speaking proof reader. It looks like it written by that guy who keeps trying to tellme the I have won the Irish Lottery. Or John from Nigeria.
-
How the Dutch do it:-
http://www.defensie.nl/marine/missies/nieuws/wfp/2010/04/30/46158887/Beelden_bevrijdingsactie_koopvaardijschip_Taipan_vrijgegeven_video
Barry M
-
sad they didn't shoot any pirates though
-
Now that's what I call a warship bow! :-))
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47787000/jpg/_47787112_009233327-1.jpg)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8667640.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8667640.stm)
-
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d3_1312921330
-
Just caught up with this thread, but one of the earlier depositions queried the use of the Suez Canal. Don't quite know why as most (if not all) pirate attacks are south of the "Horn of Africa" (Cape Guardafui).
But there are many reasons why a ship would prefer going around the Cape of Good Hope rather than via the Canal.
For one, not all ships transitting out of the Persian Gulf are going to Europe or North America. Be a bit silly if you were going to South America.
Secondly, "tankers" are basically a floating pipeline. With sufficient ships en-route the ships speed/distance is immaterial. Given enough ships they could plod along at 5 knots as long as they continue the flow.
But there is another consideration. The "Load Line" regulations. Why, do you think, the Load Lines (Plimsoll Line to some of you) has the markings such as WNA (Winter, North Atlantic), "S" (Summer), FW (Fresh Water) and so on?
The route around the Cape used to be classified as a "rough" area and so ships had to be loaded more lightly, but that was changed so ships could be loaded to their Summer marks as the passage around the Cape was of small duration. There are charts showing all the various areas where ships have to be at a particular "load" when transitting. BY.
-
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d3_1312921330
That was on Aug. 9/11
-
did someone say pirates ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRHTmVr9bQ
:P