Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: tigertiger on November 29, 2008, 02:14:19 am
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I am in the planning stage of my first scratch build. Louis Heloise a French bautier.
I live in China so many orthodox methods may not be open to me, as there is a lot materials etc. that I have been unable to find here. So I will have to 'make do' and bodge. I am also a bodger by nature.
I have the plans from Traplet. And copies of the MM articles.
I get the impression that this is a 'fair wind' boat. As the ballast is internal I figure she will heel over a lot.
Does anybody know if my assumption is correct?
If so, I plan to insert a drop keel into the main keel, where the lead would have been installed if I were using internal ballast.
This is a hollow section of the keel.
I plan to make up the keel by sandwiching different layers of plywood together, and leaving a hole in the middle. As an alternative to one thick piece of ply, and cutting the keel slot.
Does anybody have any advice on sandwiching ply for the keel?
Like I say, I am at the planning stage, so any advice is most welcome.
I also welcome any alternative methods people have dicovered along the way.
To give you an idea. I cannot find white grease here. I needed it for a thumb nut on a sailboat, and do not want black grease everywhere. I thought about vaseline (petroleum jelly), but I can't find any here. In the end I used some lip balm.
Regards Mark
aka TT
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Mark,
When you sandwich ply, put a layer of glass cloth between when you epoxy - increases strength.
Why not think of a bolt on keel made of perspex? Sink a couple of threaded nuts into the keel and use stainless bolts, that way is easy to fit/replace and doesnt change the visual image of the boat.
Ian
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...Sink a couple of threaded nuts into the keel and use stainless bolts...
Hi Boatmadman
How do you acieve a water tight seal?
I have something similar where the keel box is below the water line, but a wingnut is used and a piece of sheet rubber acts as a seal/washer.
Or are the nuts nyloc?
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Err, dunno, never done it myself, it was just a thought!
I guess you could cut a slot of some sort in the keel, glue in the nuts with epoxy and re seal on the inside with epoxy and cloth?
Ian
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OK thanks. I shall think around that.
Thanks agian for input. I will definatley sandwich the glass.
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OK this bodgers build has now begun.
This is my first scratch build, so I will be using all sorts of non-approved methods. But as the original designer of the boat, Andre Moreau said, 'do it your own way'.
The months of mulling things over have ended and I have made a few decisions about the model.
-It will be at the original planned scale of 1/10. I have put aside plans of a 1/6 scale for now due to the cost of 16kg of lead.
-This will be a stand off model.
-Working boats are not yachts, I will not be aiming at perfection of finish of anything.
-I will where possible use materials at hand, sourcing the 'right stuff' is a problem in China.
Variations from the plan.
-It will have a drop keel. Where I live the wind can get up very quickly and I want to sail in all conditions.
-It will be motorised. The wind can also drop to nothing, and motor can also help bring her about across the wind.
-It may have an additional sail winch, as I will be sailing in stronger winds than the original model (as planned) could cope with.
-Rigging will be modified for ease of breaking down.
The builders board is glued and drying as I write. I will continue again on Monday.
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Good luck with the build Mark, at least with "bodging" nothing can go wrong, as there is no right way to do it in the first place.
Pics when you can :-))
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Hi Mark,
Good luck with the build.
Going back to your add on keel. How about bonding two threaded studs into your laminated keel extension. The protruding ends passing through two tubes firmly fixed within the boat. If the tubes terminate well above the waterline, surely this will stop the ingress of water. The keel extension can then be secured in position with wing nuts
By only having the tubes bonded within the hull you will be able to change the size/style of keel extension if reqd.
Regards
longshanks
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For what it is worth I have built this model and sailed for over 2 years in a wide range of weather conditions these are my observations:
A droprudder is essential a drop keel is not
With 20lbs of lead the boat sails best in a steady but strong wind,
You need to think ahead when sailing as this is a big lump
I have a number of photos in sail which I will post tomorrow
All the best
Mark
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Found them
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And more
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Thanks for the input guys,
and the photos.
Ref the keel.
My plans are.
The laminated boat keel will be hollow, and the drop keel will slot in. It will then have bolts going horizontally through both. I indend to set a nut into the boat keel on the far side. This will be for speed/ease of assembly, and allows for interchangable keel lengths if needed.
I know there will be some drag, but this is not a racing yacht and a boat this beamy has drag ok2
I thought about using the vertical nut, I have one on my other boat (below the waterline no probs) but it is fidly and difficult to get to. Also this part of the boat is where the radio tray will be, so a tube up to the deck may not be straight forward.
I want to keep the ballast weight close to the recommended 4kg. As you say MCR, with 20lbs you need to plan your sailing.
I will be compromising on rigging and detail as I want this boat to be usable daily. Ease of use will be the primary concern with this model.
For example, my keel will be 21-22mm wide, this is 3mm wider than standard. It suits the materials I have and will be extra strong.
- 9mm core
- 6mm sides
- thin layer of glass to sandwich.
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Questions on the sails and running rigging for MCR.
How is the sail setting on this model? The MM article by Andre Moreau suggests it is not too good.
Did you modify any of the running rigging?
Are you using only 1 sail winch? If so, is this adequate?
Hope you can advise
Mark
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Well the builders board is finished. And yes I will be building the model 'right way up'. Goodness knows what possessed me, but at least it shows the alternate way of hull building.
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Before I start the keel I need to estimate where the drop keel will go. This is so I can leave a slot in the boat keel for the drop keel.
To place the drop keel in its proper place I need to find the centre of lateral resistance (CLR) and then centre of resistance of the drop keel needs to be in line with this.
I will not be able to find the CLR until the hull is complete, but by making some assumptions I have guestimated the position of the CLR, I have then allowed for a slot for the drop keel. The drop keel slot is wider than needed and the actual drop keel can be trimmed later match the actual CLR.
Getting the CLR sorted is one of the things needed if a boat is to handle well.
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To estimate the CLR
Assumption, on a well balanced boat the CLR is close to the vertical line passing through the centre of pressure (C of P) of the sails.
The CofP I have considered to be the same as the centre of area of the sails when sails are close hauled (pulled in to the centre line of the boat).
I took an enlarged copy of the sail plan as shown in a magazine article. I mounted this on cardboard, cut it out and then found the centre of gravity of the cardboard by suspending it from three points and dropping a vertical line with a plumbob.
The centre of gravity of the carboard should be the centre of area of the cardboard and hence of the sails. This was then transferred and marked on the plan. A vertical line was then dropped to the datum line on the plan. I then measured 10cm either side and this is the line of my drop keel.
With a 20cm (8") wide drop keel I can I hope easily trim it to match the true CLR when I establish it.
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Next I took tracing paper and traced the keel outline. I will not be making the keel from cut pieces of timber as per the plan.
I then traced the pattern onto plywood.
I will be sandwiching 3 layers of ply with some fiberglass tissue and resin for strength. I should be using FG mat, but I don't have any and have not found any in my neck of the woods (yet).
The ply was then roughly cut to about 2cm from the line. After the sandwiched keel is set I will trim it all together to make life easy.
There was one exception. The inside edges of the keel slot were cut to the line.
I also drilled some holes so that the cut pieces can be aligned for gluing.
Gluing up tomorrow. Today I clean up first.
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I'm looking forward to this! Excellent stuff, tigertiger.
You might want to arrange it that the CoP is slightly aft of the CLR, as in most sailing craft. This'll provide a small amount of weather helm which would mean the boat will want, under neutral rudder, to turn into the wind.
AndyG
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Hi Andy
Thanks for that. :-))
At the moment it is only a guestimate, the true CLR will be found when I get the hull in the water, I will just aim not to upset it with the keel. If the CLR is not just aft of the CofP I can easily tweek the drop keel to achieve this.
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Well no glassing done today. We have had torrential rain and with the heat the humidity is up above 70% some resins don't like this. I will see if the aircon in the workshop takes the humidity down significantly.
One advantage of working slowly, especially as I am learning as go, is time to ponder.
On looking at the plans again I saw I had forgotten about the propshaft and rudder tube.
The motor and prop were held up to the plan and the location of the proptube through the keel was marked and this was then transfered to the core of the keel using tracing paper.
I will cut out a space for the prop, from the rudder. I may need to increase the rudder size.
I have done this as I was advised that in the event of a major problem/blocked prop etc, the rudder will get trashed, and not the boat.
I need to find out if I have planned enough clearance for the prop from the keel. I will do this on another board.
The location of the prop tube was also marked on the keel's core.
The core of the keel was then cut to allow positioning of the proptube and rudder tube. And the propshaft and rudder tube test fitted.
The propshaft has a bit of waggle (8mm tube in 9mm ply) that can be packed with a little fibreglass tissue.
The rudder tube is only 5.5mm, and so will need packing with thin strips of wood to keep it central.
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When doing this I noticed that I will need to precut some areas, to the line, before gluing.
This is needed to prevent fouling of the metal parts when gluing, and damaging them by cutting when final shaping the keel.
Well that is something learned today.
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Hi Mark,
I'm enjoying this thread - keep it up.
A thought for the future - I hope I'm helping. Don't know if you've come across this in your previous builds but the angle of the rudder stock to servo will require some thought.
longshanks
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Hi Longshanks.
I have thought about this and you are right, it is a tricky one.
I have two options
Option A is a ball jointed connection, but if this is too tight;
Option B is a flexible control cable, as used in model aircraft. It behaves like a brake cabel, inner core and outer sleeve.
Hopefully I have it cracked. :-))
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Option B should work well, I have used this method to turn the cables through 90 deg with success.
Ian
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I didn't get much done the last few days, I have been playing with glue.
None of this does what is says on the tin malarky here. Notice two different manufacturers.
I took some old two part epoxy glue into a shop I have found in this new city of residence.
I said I wanted the same. They assured me that this stuff is the same, but that does not mean anything here.
So what I did was I made a test batch and let it go off for 24 hours.
Tin one is half full, tin two is full.
Tin two smells like stale digestive biscuits, so I think it is epoxy.
It seemed to have gone off OK after 24 hours, although not rock solid.
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Other prep included masking the prop tube and scoring it with sandpaper to allow the glue to bite.
I also stopped off the rudder tube by pushing it into an eraser. I had not blue tack or chewing gum. This is to stop glue getting into the end of the rudder tube, I had this on my MJW build and I could not get the rudder inner to go through.
I also wrapped some fibreglass tissue around the propshaft as packing. The tube is 8mm and the Ply core is 9mm.
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Preparing to glue.
Firstly I cleared away everything that was not needed from the bench.
Then I covered the bench in a cheap plastic sheet. Sold here as disposable tablecloth.
After this I set up my glue pots, my measuring pots, my mixing cup, my stirers, my latex gloves, my screw driver for opening the tins.
Then I laid out everything I would need. All the parts of the keel, the FG, the rudder tube, the prop shaft, and the packing pieces for the rudder tube.
It was at this stage I realised that I needed to cut my rudder tube closer to its final length, as the weight of the excess tube would pull things apart before clamping, and would get in the way after clamping.
Rudder tube duly cut.
Next step measure and mix the glue. I am paranoid about mixing glue. I over mix it if anything, but not using the 5 minute (or even 30min) epoxy you have time.
I often read people complain that the glue didn't mix properly, like the glue mixes itself %). So I mix for at least 5 mins.
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Gluing up
Taking what will be the base (one side of the keel) I coated liberally with resin. I used a cheap (20p) paint brush.
Then I laid the FG tissue on top and used the paintbrush to daub it down into the resin, and added more resin.
After this the I took pieces that would form the keel's core and coated the back with the resin, and then placed on top of the FG (using the locating screws as a guide) and pressed down.
NB. All sides of what will form the keel box need to be coated well as these will be exposed to water.
Next step was to locate the rudder tube.
This needed packing as the tube is 5mm diameter and the core of the keel is made from 9mm ply. I placed a piece of 2mm balsa (what I had) at the bottom of the slot. Dabbed in some resin, then placed in the tube, more resin and finally the last piece of 2mm packing.
After this the prop tube was located.
The prop tube is 8mm, and so only a wrapping of FG around the tube was needed.
A good helping of resin was put in the slot. the prop tube inserted and twisted around to soak up resin. Then a little more resin was poured on top for good measure.
Next a liberal application of resin to the uncoated sides of the ply and another layer of FG tissue was place on top and daubed with the brush as before.
After that, the top piece (opposite side) of the keel was painted with resin on the back, and put in place (using the locating screws) and pressed home.
Final job clamping up.
I used more of the plastic sheet to prevent the keel from gluing to the workmate and clamps. I also used scrap wood to prevent the clamps from damaging the surface of the keel.
And don't forget to remove the locating screws before the get glued in.
Final note
Some resins do not like humidity. I am not sure if this effects epoxy, but currently the humidity here has shot up to about 80% in the past week. So just to be safe I have left the airconditioning on in the workshop to reduce the humidity, and got it down to about 35% and temp of about 28*. Hopefully ideal conditions for curing.
This will be left now until Monday, three days.
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Frames.
I glued the templates to the ply about a week ago now. I used a simple water glue, as long as it has plenty of time to dry it is good enough.
I cut the frames out quit quickly by using a jigsaw.
I then trimmed carefully using on of those Permagrit tools. They were highly recommended by FLJ, and so I bought a couple from expotools. They really are good and made light work of trimming the frames. This was not a job I was looking forward to, but in the end it was easy.
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Slightly off topic.
Lucky find.
While looking for a fat soldering iron to abuse for bending planks I found the beast in the picture below.
It is used for bending PPP, I have no idea what that is, but that it has PPP on the box. I am guessing plastics or melamine.
It has a thermostatic control up to 300*C. I tried to bend a piece of 3mm plank. Easy peasey.
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Hey Mark,
Just came across your build which I'll be following with interest. Its looking great so far. :-))
Isn't that new fangled plank heating device what they use here for welding PPR tubing? I might just run out to the market tomorrow morning & get one myself. How much did that set you back up in Zhengzhou?
Chuck
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Hi Chuck
You are probably right about the use.
It cost me about RMB120, but that was in Home Depot, I am sure trade will be less than that.
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Well the glue went off, and she is as flat as a board :-))
Just a few blobs of glue to trim off the surface, these came off easily with a chisel.
The next step was to cut back and trim the keel assembly. Remembering that this has FG in it, I decided I should take some precautions, including a mask, as the saw dust will contain glass.
Not forgetting to protect the ears from noise.
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After trimming off the excess wood, and fibreglass, and resin scraps.
Time to check the stern, the prop tube undamanged, and the rudder tube cleared of the rubber (eraser) bungs.
Next check the rudder tube inner fits nicely and has good alignment and good clearance from the stern post.
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I needed to make a rebate to take the front edge of the hull planking.
First, transfer the planking line from the plan to the keel.
Next, scribe the line with a knife to denote the edge. This will also stop over cutting when carving the rebate.
Then, cut towards the line with a chisel to carve the rebate.
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With the propshaft now fixed, I attached the prop, and could rough out the lines for a redesigned rudder.
It will have a cut out for the prop and will also have a larger area. This will compensate for the area lost from the cutout and add strength to the rudder assembly.
The bottom picture shows progress so far.
The completed keel assembly (notice the keel slot), and the frames.
Slow progress.
And I spotted a problem. The finished keel is 23.5mm wide. This is too wide for the building cradle I originally constructed, and so I have had to modify it :embarrassed:
I have also made a start on the sails. But at this stage only preshrinking the cotton cloth. I will also be doing some other things in parallel. I will record the progress on the these items offline and will introduce them at a later date. Rather than doing it in dribs and drabs.
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I have sailed this model for over 2 years about 9 months ago I added a drop rudder made out of perspex it is invisable in the water and has transformed its sailing performance. You might like to consider it.
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Hi MCR
What do you mean by a 'drop rudder'?
Do you mean a long one extending straight down, like on sailing yachts?
How far did you extend?
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Hope this helps
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By the way the dimensions are 9"X 3" the removable rudder is held in place by the springing action of 2 steel rods which run inside brass tubes.
Mark
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Thx :-))
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TT,
I have been too busy to dive in and say thanks for the build - lovely detail and it is very helpful (to me at least) to hear your thinking, planning and the adaptation of available materials.
Wear the "bodgers" badge proudly :-)) and it is my belief that 'fessing up to dead ends and things that did not conform to plan are as helpful to me and aspiring builders as the sleek, successful and elegant :}
Something like LH lies in my future - and about this size; so I am in there rooting for you.
thanks for sharing
andrew
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A bit more progress.
The slots were cut into the bottom of the ribs and ribs were glued onto the keel.
Then the ribs were faired. Fairing is making the profile of the ribs fit the shape of the hull outline, i.e. the way the planks will run around the ribs.
The first two planks were pinned and tacked in place to see how it looks.
Problem
ribs 1 and 10 were not aligned. They were too high. They need to be lowered. Just cutting off the tops would not be OK for two reasons.
Firstly, the deck would be out of line.
Secondly, even if the rib had the deck rebate re-cut, the hull profile would be off.
Solution
Remove the ribs 1 and 10. File a bit more out of the slot in the rib that locates on the keel, thus lowering the rib.
Everything fitted better the second time. And the first planks were glued.
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As an aside.
Bending the planks abusing the tool I mentioned in an earlier post.
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Trying to locate the second plank below the first, I could see this would not work.
Looking at the area between rib 10 (last rib) and the transom. There is a change of orientation of almost 90 degrees. The angle is shown in yellow in the figure. This would require an impossible amount of twisting.
The red lines show the area of most concern with regards to twisting. The blue lines just highlight the continuing lines of the hull.
I will sleep on this one until Monday. But I think the second plank will need to follow the buttock line of the hull. I will then infill the planks between.
The buttocks are the curves where the hull side changes to the hull bottom.
I taped on plank two to see how this would work. I am pretty sure it will.
The only other choice would be to stick a big block of foam between the transom and rib 10. This could then be sanded to shape and and then given an FG coat.
However I do not really want to go on a materials safari if I can avoid it. And I was not planning to FG the outside of the hull. I wanted to show the planking.
Any thoughts guys?
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This is looking really good, great work so far. What wood are you using for the planks?
For the transition bend from frame 10 to transom - when I have come across this problem, I use half width planks, they are more forgiving to big bends.
Your suggestion of using infill (or stealer) planks will work, just alternate the stealer planks, ie fit one under the side plank, the next on top of the lower plank etc. - clear as mud?
Ian
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TT
I have some thoughts, and they are on the side of the angels - the geometry seems to have things in your favour, if I can explain what I am thinking
With that "knuckle at the lower corner of the transom I think you need a bit of wood running from there to the appropriate place on the next former along - a longeron which will help the planks in that challenging area have something to glue to and make the transition neatly
- I was thinking of something like 10mm square rock-hard balsa or maybe ramin or one of the light hardwoods. When in place sand as near as possible to the right conforming shape at both ends and faired kindly in between.
planking - the near-vertical part of the transom will take a small number of full planks - 2 or 3, and there are going to be OK, I think - not too much twist.
The planks on the "underhang" of the transom are as you say twisted, but they are also enormously tapered - so what is being twisted is tapering to maybe 1mm thick by 2 or 3mm wide at the transom. This will make twisting easier, and the wood you are using looks as if it is good and flexible, especially if it lives (transom end down) in boiling water for half an hour and is then bound in position till it dries .
Sorry, I have used a lot of words - I'll try a picture if you think it might have merit - all that Ian said is along tha same lines as my thought
andrew
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Tigertiger.........along the lines as Andrew has suggested.....the second plank could be in block format [the height of your actual planks] - this would not bend well so would need to be fashioned [cut, profiled & sanded] to meet the required sharp transition angle..... you would also need to cut a rebate in each hull frame to accept this .....Derek
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Another alternative would be to taper plank the hull. Its more work but looks real nice if you intend to leave the hull unpainted.
This involves planing each individual plank into a taper from the centre to each end. You need to measure how many planks are needed to get around the widest point of the hull, then at each frame, measure around the frame from keel to top, divide by the total number of planks needed at the widest frame and that will tell you the width of the plank you need at each frame.
You would probably need to plane a slight angle on the edges of the planks where they glue together to get a good fit and avoid the need for filler.
This will avoid the need for any stealer planks, and will give you narrow planks at the transom which will help with the bending issue.
Ian
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Thanks Boatmadman.
I was thinking along similar lines. When I have seen it done there are also, what could be called, transitional planks. For example along the buttock line, and on larger models perhaps half way between buttock line and deck line as well. Something like a gap of 5 or 6 planks at the widest point, between these transitional planks.
But I think I would still need one of these transitional planks along the buttock line. But I am not sure.
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I think the need for transitional pieces depends entirely on the hull profile. I used tepered planking on a 1m yacht hull, the transom is small, although not squared at the bilge, it curves nicely. I didnt need any transition pieces for it.
I will get a pic of it later so you can see how it looks.
Ian
Pics here, first one shows mid section of the hull, planks at 10mm width, the others show the bow and stern, hope you can see the taper in the planks. There is the same number of planks running from bow to stern.
This hull is mid way through a refurb having been rubbed down and put on the shelf for a later date :-))
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Well on revisiting the build today I found she had spring a plank in a couple of places.
I know the reason for this. I have seen written that if you use CA and PVA together, you get an instant tacking of the component from CA and a more solid bond from the PA after it goes off. This did not work for me. The PA seems to have gone soft and pliable, too soft.
I also found that there are many ways you can try to use clamps when planking. Some ways more successful than others. But I read on here that using masking tape works best. I doubted this until I tried it. It is very effective. So I binned the clamps and got more masking tape out. It is actually quicker and easier to use as well :-))
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Attaching additional planks is easy.
First, use tape to hold the next plank in the rough position needed.
Then attach the forward end to the stem post of the keel, I used CA. Pin and brace with tape.
After this, work back along the frames towards the stern. First gluing and then bracing as you go.
To make things more secure I used brass pins at the stem and at tha last frame I attached to (frame 10). Having a pin pusher helps a lot.
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Oops! Mishap, but not a disaster.
When pinning the front end of the fourth plank, the plank snapped and the pin pusher also went through and broke the third plank.
And so I had to remove the third plank and replace it.
The other thing I have learned.
By sheer chance the first few planks I cut were not good. The grain was awkward and the planks did not bend naturally. Because of this I used heat to bend them. By heating them they seem to have lost flexibility, and although bent now, this bend is a little rigid, uneven, and not a natural curve.
Later planks are much more supple, the grain is going in the direction of the plank more. They form nicely around the frames.
The result is that the heat bent planks do not line up well with each other, or with the unheated planks. This will increase the amount of sanding filling required.
The unbent planks line up nicely and will require less sanding.
I may go back and remove the first (heat bent) planks and replace them. A set back but it will probably save time in the long run.
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One more question was left hanging from before.
What to do about the transom.
In the MM article the author (the original designer) says he had problems with transom area and used plywood. I was not sure what he meant by the use of ply, at the time of reading. But now I think I understand.
After offering up the second plank, to the hull, it is clearer what needs to be done.
I think I will tackle the transom like this, applying some of the advise given above.
Firstly, cut a piece of square stock wood from my timber. I will use the same timber as the planks. If I used my balsa stock it would be too soft and cause problems when sanding.
This piece of square timber will then be shaped to fit the curve between hull sides and transom corner (and bottom).
I may also add some longrons.
After this, I will use a skin of thin ply (maybe two layers) bent to fit around the curve under the transom area. The frames will not need to be rebated, as I will simply run a 1-2mm square batton inside the edge of the frame to support the ply.
A substitute for ply, that is waterproof, could be CA soaked card. The use of longrons would support this.
This method will leave a line of planks cut at the same point. This is not ideal, but I don't really have a lot of choice as my skills at planking are limited.
However I don't think it will matter a lot for two reasons. Firstly, I can fill and sand the gap. Secondly, it is in an area of the hull that would not really be seen unless the boat is inverted (and then I will be worrying about more than aesthetics %) )
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TT.......
1) your PTC 116 - the turn of the bilge plank positioned as such will require a huge fearhering requirement of planks in the vertical plane & you would require mid frame blocking to get the tapered planks secured...it is more comon to raise that lower plank & have the majority of the feathering...'lower & under'
2) your PICT0133 - you must position the planks firmly & accurately against the rebate in your bow riser & then trim the plank length at the appropriate hull frame
3) your slide 1 & slide 2....is :-)).....this is what I termed as blocking in
4) Could I suggest you review the current Burbon Orca build in Working Vessels........ by Ian........he is a little more progressed & is following those cardinal rules I had mentioned
5) Do you intend to leave the planking exposed [under polyurathane or the like?].....if so some pretty hard sole searching is required :-X
Please remember I am not a :police: .......ar a %% .....we just want to be constructive in line with your goals......................Derek O0
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Hi Derek
Thanks for the feedback :-))
Ref Pic 133
I know what you mean. This is one of the planks that was bent with heat, and it kept moving. It just did not want to fit.
I am thinking of replacing the first two planks (the heat bent ones), as the wood was unluckily the lowest quality two planks. Sods law it was the first two I cut. Never having cut or used this timber before I was none the wiser.
Worst case I will fill the gap at the front of the plank.
I will be painting the hull. I am not a big fan of natural wood finish on models, unless it was seen on the prototype. You see it on some yachts and launches and looks ok.
But not on a working boat.
I am not looking for a perfect finish, some planking visible is something I want. Even if only to stop the ruddy Chinese from telling me it is a bought FG hull.
I will have another look at the Bourbon Orca.
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TT
Quite a learning experience - she will be great!
As you say a bit of the planking as evidence under the paint is nice - just like the prototype.
Forgive me you have already said - are you stripping the planking from what is available locally? the appears to be pretty good, but a bit short in the grain, to judge by the pin-push damage.
It does you credit that you just exclaimed "bother" when that happened :}
I don't know if Polyurethane glue is common in china - I would have thought so, because its much used in building to join anything to wet concrete. Not easy to make a perfectly neat job with it (because it foams well) but quick drying and perfectly waterproof. But I would agree with your white glue for planking.
Keep sharing, please
andrew
btw your transom plan looks practical - the ply would follow this well, but how about fitting the structure (corners and supports) first on the lower side of the overhang, then the ply (1.32nd?) then plank ther upper level down to the ply edge. Should make it easier to get a smooth transition
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With reference again to the low quality of the first two planks.
As I said before these were the first two planks I ever cut myself and did not realise the quality issue, until afterwards when I had cut and fitted better planks.
You can see the difference in the grain of the planks in this photo.
You can also see there are gaps between the planks. This is even more prevalent where the planks curve in more direction around the buttocks. But I am not concerned. I assume that real boats had this, hence caulking, and I will be using filler.
I will also use resin and mat on the inside. I may also have to use FG tissue on the outside, which I had not planned on.
This is a model of a working boat remember. I am not after a superlight racing hull, and being down in the water does make for a more impressive looking wake.
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Progress is slower now. I have had a few visitors.
Additionally, I can only really do one plank on each side per day, because of the clamping and gluing of wood under tension/torsion.
As the curves got more complex I had to revert to using clamps, as well as more pins and a thicker grade of CA.
I also realised that I need to trim some of the plank ends, while I can still get the saw in. I will then continue planking and cut/trim from the other direction.
Only a couple of more planks on each side and then I will start planking up from the bottom of the hull.
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TT,
Great progress, its looking real good.
Re gaps between the planks, this isnt a problem if you are going to paint a hull, as, like you said, use of filler gets over this. Unless you bevell each edge of the planks as they meet, you will often get little gaps.
If you are going to glass and tissue inside the hull, you probably wont need tissue on the outside, a couple of coats of resin will be ok. I suggest you use a thin skimming resin on the outside, and after the first application, go over it with a plastic scraper (an old credit card or similar), to take off excess, this will help work the resin into the wood and avoid any runs.
Ian
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Cheers for the tip Ian. :-))
Now I have to find some thin resin {-)
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While I am doing the planking I am doing a couple of other tasks simultaneously.
First one of these is the rudder. I need the rudder to be ready when the hull is finished. This way I can check the line of lateral resistance (see above, but more on this when the time comes).
Because of the choice to add a prop, with shaft built into the keel, my rudder needs to be redesigned.
First step was to trace out a new profile for the rudder. I used electrical tape (red) to hold down the tracing paper, as electrical tape is low tack and won't tear the plan when removed.
The mouth in the rudder for the prop may seem high. But this was needed. Length L2 (The gap between the propshaft and the top of the mouth) must be greater than L1(the length of inner rudder tube above top of rudder). This is to allow enough room for the rudder to be fitted/removed.
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This pattern was traced onto two pieces of 9mm ply, and the pieces cut out.
Then, the two halves of the rudder were then put together and pinned. This is to allow shaping to remain symmetrical. And at the moment there is still one square and straight side. It will not remain square but must remain straight.
Next, I started shaping the front (leading) edge of the rudder only. The picture shows the roughed out leading edge, but it still needs work to ensure the rudder can turn without jambing on the stern post.
The process of shaping and assembling is not straight forward, but there is a logic that will become apparent as we go along.
But that is it on the rudder for now.
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The other task was making a template for the deck beams, to get the deck camber.
I first copied a part of the plan showing the deck camber and glued it to scrap ply.
I then covered it in plastic (acetate sheet) to prevent things sticking to the board.
Next I used large pins/small nails to using three strips of scrap planking, decided the upper and lower limits of the deck curve and put the nails.
These 3 nails will act as a former.
After this I put the three planks into the former, doused liberally in liquid/thin CA, clamped, and retired due to the fumes. I worked out on the balcony for this one.
When dry I had a nice template that I will use when scribing out the deck beams. I am tempted to actually use the former to make deck beams, but several of these beams do not run between the hull formers.
I also put the template in place on the widest part of the beam to get an impression of where the deck line will be.
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Look very good! :-))
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Last time I had managed to do some planking on the bottom of the boat.
This was quite gappy in places, but as I said fibreglass, resin, and filler will sort this (I hope).
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Now she is flipped I can continue planking from the keel down.
Remember that there is a slot cut into the stem post (front of keel) to accept planks. For the first two planks this slot is horizontal and then near horizontal. For this reason I did not start fixing these two planks from the stem to stern. I roughly lined up the front of the plank (so that it was too long) and fixed from about frames 3 and 4 first. Then I worked forward.
At the stem I slowly cut and filed the plank to fit, this was a process of trial and error.
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When fixing the second plank I let the plank follow the contours of the frames out to the stern post. This means there is a wedge shaped gap to fill with planks. I chose to let this happen at the second plank. This is going to happen anyway, but doing it now allows me to plank onto the flat surface of the keel. Easy.
Doing this I needed to shape the planks so that they narrow. I have not cut the planks so that they will end on a frame as they do in real life, forming planks called stealers. Carefully marking and cutting the planks to fit was much easier than I have anticipated, and the scrap piece was also used to take up the remaining space.
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I have now found the best way to plank is using pins. BUT I didn’t have enough. This is why I was using tape. Brass pins will actually work out cheaper than using tape, as well as being more reliable. I have a mate coming over from UK in two weeks had he will bring pins.
NB If you are going to buy pins, don’t buy them by the packet (50/100), buy them in their hundreds, because that is the quantity they will be used in. I am now a bit stuck until the pins arrive. However there are lots of other jobs to be getting on with.
I wanted to source locally, but could not. I could have used bamboo trenails, but I am too lazy.
Planking to date is below.
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Something I forgot to show before.
Before the keel was put in the building cradle, and before the frames were attached, provision was to bolt on the removable drop keel.
Holes drilled in the keel, horizontally. These holes were then lined with tubing. The aim of lining is that the screws used will with time cut into the resin protecting the wood.
I lined the holes with the tube I had available. I would have liked to have used brass tube, but I did not have any. The tubes were fixed with resin.
I also countersunk two M6 nuts into the far side of the keel, and glued them in place. This means that on the dockside I only have to worry about fiddling with the M6 screws, and not the nuts as well. A one handed job now.
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Last time I worked on the rudder it had been left with just the 'leading edge' shaped.
I next cut a slot in the edge to take the rudder tube. This was done with a table saw.
The rudder tube was fitted the full length of the rudder, even though the centre section will be removed. I did this to avoid alignment issues. It may seem wasteful, but I will use the odd bit, and it was easier for me.
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Because the lengths of tube that meet the rudder, compared to the overall length of the rudder, I decided they needed to be strengthened.
This was done by sandwiching fibreglass (FG) mat between the two (9mm ply) halves of the rudder and around the rudder post. This was then glued with resin and clamped.
After it had dried, it was trimmed, cleaned, shaped, and then tried for size in its location.
After some further trimming, to ensure it rotates freely, it fitted well.
I feel another shopping trip coming on for materials. I will try to find some thin resin (for finishing) and some 20mm ID brass tube (for the mast tube).
Shopping is always an adventure. There is no Yellow Pages for these small traders, and I am searching a city with an urban population of 3.7 million people. The people who would know where to find stuff don’t speak English. Those who do speak English are not the kind of people to ‘know’ workers.
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Hi tt...I think you have a flat spot about frame 7....please see the attachment............ :-)) ...I have experienced a few difficulties in posting this....... >>:-( I took your image...sent to Paint...added a few lines & text.... then the system would not allow the .extension as the attachment ..........so I have renamed it as .jpg & hope it works .....Derek
OK...yes it works :D.....I am guessing that frame 7 on the Stdb side in the marked up area is say 1.5 mm too low....the Port side in the same area of frame 7 only say 0.5 mm too low
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Hi Derek
You are probably right. %)
This is, I think, a product of building the model 'right way up'. Where the only fixed datum is the keel, every frame is then open to error, movement in three dimensions.
This is a very good arguement for building 'upside-down'. Where all the frames are fixed in 3 dimensions, the only movement error is the in the keel. I chose to do this model 'right way up', as this was the method used in the MM article for this model.
I future I will build 'upside-down', it is a lesson learned. But learning is half the fun.
A flat spot is something I am happy to live with. It is too late to do anything to fix it now now.
If I was building an IOM, or other racing craft, the lines would be critical. But on a working boat, that won't be competing it won't matter.
Belive me you are going to see a lot worse before I have finished. :embarrassed: Especially in the transom area.
There are many master model builders on this site, who produce near perfect results. It can at times be intimidating to new modellers like me.
There are also lots of expensive kits, that I don't want to spend so much money on.
One of the reasons for doing this build log, and calling it 'Bodgers Class' is to show that even if you are cack handed, and do not have all the right tools, all the right materials, and years of experience, even a newbie can build a boat from scratch. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just a boat that will sail and look good, to the untrained eye. OK it won't win any prizes at modelling shows, or any races, but that is not the aim here.
I would encourage anybody to have a go at scratch building, even if only once, even it is isn't perfect. Bodge it :-))
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As tt says ......." It is too late to do anything to fix it now" ....no sorry tt
1) one tea spoon of P38 filler will cure the depression @ either side of frame 7
2) my comment was based upon humble visual observations & not intended as a critism of build
regards Derek :embarrassed:
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TT,
I will let you into a little secret:
even when you have built a number of scratch boats there is always some 'bodged' bits - you just learn how to hide them better. :}
Ian
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Well the hull is on hold, so I can should start something else.
An obvious thing to start would be the sails, as there is a fair bit of work in them, if you do them properly, but I will be taking short cuts.
First job is was to buy 100% cotton sheet. This was preshrunk by soaking in a bucket of cold water for a few hours and then let it dry naturally.
Repeat many times. I have actually been doing this as I go along.
Then I went to dye it. I bought the dye last year in UK. I did not know how to use Dylon Dye or how much to use. I bought several colours for different projects.
I have no idea of how much dye to use. The pack says on dye pack per 8oz of fabric. I find that the double sheet I had was just over 20oz. I only had 2 red dyes, one dark and one medium. So I figured if I use less water I will be OK.
Followed the instructions.
But the resulting colour is too light, for my mind. I have no idea what colour red sails really are, but I imagined a dried blood colour.
I guess I will now need to buy a medium brown and use half quantities to tone this down.
So the sails are on hold now.
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Hmm! What else can I do.
Well I can knock out the blanks for the masts and spars.
Luckily I have some 1/2" dowel. So cutting the lengths for the gaff spar, top mast, and bowsprit was easy.
This dowel also fits in the jaws of my drill. Using gloves and sandpaper, I used the drill to turn the dowel and taper the bowsprit.
The larger mast and main boom are 20mm diameter. I selected a nice straight piece of cedar with nice straight grain and no knots. Cut it square section and then octagonal on the table saw.
From the octagonal I simply used a Permagrit block to sand off the corners, and make it round. This could be done with a plane, but the block has a reasonable length to keep a straight line.
It is easy to find the flat spots, by feel or you can see them in the light, keep working to elininate the flat spots.
I was not looking for a perfect factory finished round dowel. But I do need them to be straight. After getting the round shape I switched to sandpaper to smooth it.
When doing a taper, I found it helped to draw the smaller diameter on the end of the wood as a guide.
This was actually a really easy process.
And that is as far as I got today.
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Hi TT, Mark here. I already have a Louise Heloise which I was lucky enough to buy from a fantastic model maker.He only makes, never sails them .I see you were thinking of adding extras to the hull.Iam no expert but it is not needed the hull is such a great shape it sails fine as it is .The trick is you will need about 30 lbs of lead ballest at least. Plus use three servos if you were not already. One each for the jib, main sail and rudder. Control of the front sails makes steering - tacking so much easier, even in high winds.I have sent only one picture ,if it is useful I could send more, good luck Mark
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0069-2.jpg)
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Hi Mark
Thanks for the pic. She is a nice boat.
If you could post a pic of the scuppers along the the bottom of the gunwhales I would be very greatful. This is the area I am most unclear about at the moment.
I will be fitting 3 servos. Do your two sail servos work in unison or are they independantly controlled.
If the latter, I would be interested to know more.
The reason for adding a fin keel is that I do sail in very strong winds and rough water (see pic), and I have only been able to find lead in a fishing tackle shop here, so I need to keep the costs down, as I have to pay the equivalent of £8 per kilo in local currency.
If you post and I don't reply straight away, it is because I am going off on travels for a couple of weeks.
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Hi, Yes the servos are independant control. It makes it much easier for steering and tacking with a boat this size. The rudder is the same size as the plans show, it didn't have to be made any bigger because of the extra control from the independant sail control. I hope the pictures below will be of use. Having control of the jib makes tacking much easier especially in heavy weather as you have. Mark.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0517.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0518.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0519.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0520.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0521.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0522.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0523.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0524.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/IMG_0525.jpg)
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Planking issue.
The following is hopefully a clear description of how I tackle planking a model boat hull. At the end are a few photos of my models that will hopefully show my system works very well. Both hulls a lapstrake as opposed to carvel or edge to edge planking described here but the principles are basically the same for both planking methods.
When planking a boat hull it must be realized that the girth of each frame is wider at the centre or mid-ship section than near the ends of the ship. On ships with a deep heel such as this the girth of the frames towards the stern are actually wider than the mid-ship section and so the lower 6 to 10 planks are much wider than mid-ship width.
The trick is to decide first how many planks per side you need forgetting width of planks at this point in time, this is best done by laying a strip of paper along the edge of each frame from keel to deck to work out its half girth from keel to deck line.
Let’s say for instance your ship has 20 planks per side port and starboard and you have all your strips of paper for each frame (hopefully at each of your strips match for length port and starboard at each frame!).
Measure the mid-ship frame paper strip and using a calculator divide this by 20 and this will give you the width of each plank at that point. It will be noted when this is done for the subsequent frames forward of mid-ship frame to the stem, that each plank will get narrower (rather like the staves on a wooden beer barrel). Each set of plank widths is now transferred from the paper strip to its matching frames either side of the keel.
On this particular model the girth of the frames as mentioned earlier will get wider towards the stern, this is because of the deep heel where the keep slopes slightly downward from stem to stern, and here we take a different tack.
We want the first 6 to 10 planks up from the keel to be wider as we come back from the mid ship section so the top one of these particular planks reaches the point where the stern post disappears up into the hull and the rudder post pokes down through the rudder port.
The 11th plank will then cut across the side of the stern post and its upper edge will stop at the rudder port. And then the 12th and subsequent planks run past plank 11 and meet their opposites on the centre line of the boat from the rudder port to up and under the lower edge of the transom. If you google Brixham or Lowestoft Sailing Trawler and look at some of the photos during restoration of these lovely ships you can see the run of the planks in this difficult to visualize area.
http://www.vigilanceofbrixham.co.uk/gallery09.shtml here is some great shots of Vigilance's underside at her stern post.
Next comes the impossible area at the sharp turn on the transom, here the planks near this tight turn become very narrow, on the real ship they might go right down to 3" wide or less to get around the turn, where as at the mid-ship area the same plank might be 8" wide.
The trick I use at this point when planking is to get some fine piano wire and a tin of hard stainless steel dress makers pins. The pins hold the wires on the marks you have just made on each frame edge representing the plank seams.
The wire represents the seam between two adjacent planks and because it is springy it will show you a fair run around the hull. Take care as you run each wire around the hull that you are following the correct mark at each frame for that plank seam from stem to stern, i.e. the wire on the seam between plank 6 and plank 7 does not jump to the marks for the seam mark between plank 7 and plank 8. Also avoid kinking the wire as this will not give a fair curve.
If you play about with a number of these wires you get a view as if the planks were invisible and only the seams can be seen.
The idea is to plan out the run of planking before planking begins avoiding frustration and wasted precious planking material. Each wire can be moved up and down frames a fraction until a set of sweet lines can be seen.
At this point the marks on eack frame edge may be made permanent with a fine bladed saw.
A thought here about the guard-board plank.
This is the one next to the keel. I was usual on this type of hull to keep the mid-ship plank width all the way to the stem post allowing it to reach up the stem as far as it would go.
This gives a pleasing up sweep to the rest of the planks at the bow and avoids the planks taking an ugly down-sweep when viewed directly from in the front of the ship. Then the rest of the frame girths are divided up with the remaining 19 planks.
If this is your first time at planking a hull, I would suggest getting some cheap pine and have it ripped up on a fine circular saw into thin planks so that they turn out wider than the maximum plank width you have on your ship. Start at the keel and work towards the turn of the bilge and from the deck down alternatively.
Google the process of lining and spiling off planking. There is a good article here
http://www.duck-trap.com/building.html
If you mess up a plank it is no big deal because the material you are practicing on is cheap. Tack each plank in place with your dress makers pins as you go. No glue at this point because you may need to these planks become templates for your expensive mahogany material later.
Just a side track here.
When cutting your planks you will probably want to use a small modeler’s plane to shave the edge of each plank to the scrived lines you have marked on your planking stock. So we are going to make a plank clamp that will hold your planking stock firmly and will allow you to plane its edge down to the scrive line on your lap as I do, or the whole thing may be clamped in a bench vice.
Grab yourself two pine boards about ½” thick by 3” wide and at least as long as your longest plank Mark the centre line down the length of both boards on their widest face and clamp them together so that you have effectively one board with ends 1” x 3”. Drill a series of holes to allow a carriage bolt and wing nut to pass through both boards side to sides along the marked centre-line at about 6 to 8 inches apart down their length.
The carriage bolts will be passed through their matching holes and tightened up using wing nuts thus closing up the two boards together rather like the jaws of a very wide vice. Along the edge of one of these boards, glue and pin a strip of your planking stock. This will now become the bottom edge of your plank clamp and become a pivot closing the jaws inwards towards each other when the wing nuts are tightened.
The plan is that when you sandwich a length of planking stock between these two boards of your new plank clamp, your scrived pencil line on the planking stock will be seen above the plank clamp upper edges.
When tightening up all the wing nuts on each carriage bolt, the plank stock will be gripped very firmly allowing you to plane down the exposed edge of the plank stock. It will be found that if you taper the upper outer edges of your new plank clamp, it will give better access with the plane to shave down the edges of the plank stock rather than leaving them square.
Back to planking the hull.
Soon you will end up at the closing plank, this is the last plank and it runs from half way up the stem, around the bilge and will tuck up at the stern somewhere between the stern post and the transom
If you work patiently tapering each plank so that it matches the widths at each frame position along its length you are going to end up with a very pleasing result with a hull that will be picked out by the beautiful run of its planking. Before each plank is fixed it is used as a template for its matching partner on the opposite side of the ship. This way the planking will be a perfect mirror image either side of the keel.
Your ship will be strong and tight as a bottle; the planks will be regular and describe a smooth sweep from stem to stern.
Be sure not to fill up the seams between each plank too much because these ships were built in a workman like manner where the seams could be seen. Only on yachts did the sides of a ship present a glass like appearance.
You will be so pleased with your efforts that you will want to varnish the hull to show off your efforts!
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5308/60563732.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8517/64966258.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5558/15140403.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4839/26195598.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/691/94979190.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3880/69499581.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5839/87427527.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq20Fl1S)
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Plank clamp.
Here is a drawing of what I meant by a plank clamp, the image was meant to be part of my last post but I missed it off by accident.
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6342/84546892.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxpgIwS)
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Hi JMB
Thanks for the pics. The scupper area was the only really missing link in the plans, and magazine article.
Hi Greggy
Thanks for the very detailed description of planking. I will use this on future models.
The point about narrow planking around the sharp bends is allowed for in the plans (see pic) for LH. It is shown in the plans and magasine article without any explanation, and I realised my error while 'doing a noddy' on evening on holiday.
This is something I overlooked when I was planking. Me being keen to get on, and showing my inexperience.
I also now see that my fix/bodge will require some narrow planking, rather than using ply.
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TT,
Since your sail-dyeing and me losing a whole reply to the PostGoblin I have been looking in vain for the home website of the full-size LH.
Not surprising since I was remembering precisely the wrong boat! Reasonably right type but WRONG BOAT
Jolie Brise was built 1913 at Le Havre so is not so very far away from LH
This is her website with lots of pics in case it helps you (or is interesting).
http://www.dauntseys.org/page.aspx?id=272
There is also a nice site with 2 builds of models (1/50 and 1/20th) and a lot of careful stuff about CLR and CLA and CEs and things. Since the boats have a lot in common, this might be directly useful
http://www.joliebrisemodels.co.uk/french/index.html
andrew
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An Excellent very informative website, with lots of building tips, and how to's for tackle and rigging.
Thanks for that. I know what my winter reading will be now.
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After a bit of a layoff.
Back to the build.
I will be doing the sails alongside other stuff. But I will try to keep things together where I can.
The first thing to do was to trace out the sail pattern from the plan, onto tracing paper.
There patterns were then laid onto my material (self dyed 100% cotton sheet), taking care to follow the straight of the material (on sheet this is in line with the selved/clean edge), as per the pattern shown on the plans. The leech of the sail in line with the straight of material.
The material was then cut out and a hem line ironed into the material, and pinned.
The sail was then fliped and the lines that would be seen where the sail material (on the real boat) are sewn together were pencilled on.
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Then off to the little woman at the market to sew the hems and put in the 'decorative' seams in the sails.
There are two schools of thought about what thread to use.
1/ Only use natural cotton as natural cotton thread should have the same shrinkage characteristics a 100% cotton sheet.
If threads and sail fabric shrink at the same rate this will avoid puckering of the sail along seam lines.
2/ The one in the sail making guide I have read.
Only use synthetic threads. Synthetic threads will not shrink when wet. The stitching may become a little loose if the base fabric shrinks a little, but it will not cause puckering. It is when the thread shrinks more than the fabric that puckering occurs.
I kinda tested this indirectly when I was dying my sheet. I know the hems were made with synthetic thread as it did not take the dye, at all. The sheet was 100% cotton and dyed well. But when wet there was no puckering.
But I have not control whatever over the thread the woman at the market uses. But I am not really worried.
I chose a thread that was slightly darker than the sails, and kept the reel, as I will use this to sew on my bolt ropes.
The sails came back and they look OK to me.
As an aside, I was originally worried about the sail colour being too pink. But I realise this will get darker after I waterproof the material.
And she charged me the princely sum of 20 yuan (about £2), so I am happy.
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Next step was to glue on the bolt ropes, prior to sewing them on.
I read on Mayhem that somebody else had done this and it reduces the work involved in sewing, as you only need one pair of hands.
I used PVA glue as it dries clear.
Running a bead along the edge of the sail, then rolling the bolt rope in the glue and up to the edge of the sail.
Remembering to put a small loop in the bolt rope at the corners of the sails.
Plastic clothes pegs were used as clamps in the corners.
Last picture, bolt rope when the glue is dry. Ready for sewing.
The bolt rope is 100% cotton string, BTW.
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Although the bolt rope has been PVA glued on, it will also need stitching.
This needs to be done by hand.
I thought this would painstakingly difficult, but I managed to sew the jib sail (over 2m overall perimeter) in an afternoon and part of an evening.
I found that where I had used too much PVA the sewing was hard. At one point I bent the needle, but I actually found the now curved needle easier to use.
When sewing I tried to run the thread so that it followed the twist in the bolt rope.
However the flip side of the sail does not look so neat. This will improve with practice. And once the boat is 5m out on the water, no one will see.
What I would do differently is dye the bolt ropes a slightly different colour to the sail next time, so that they stand out.
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TT...will the PVA glue not re-whiten & moisten when wet?...having said this...an alternate bonding agent could be a product similar to our OZ branded 'Selleys' acrylic Kwik Grip
The package suggets 'dries clear,. forms a heat resistant, waterproof & flexible bond' .....Derek
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Hi Derek
Thanks for the heads up.
I don't think the PVA will re-moisten once set, I think it is 'water resistant' the same as the Seeleys. But I will keep my eye on it.
I will also be waterproofing the sails once finished. As they should not get immersed I think I will be ok.
The product you mention says it is an acrylic contact adhesive. Does anybody know of a UK brand of such a product?
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More in the spirit of What I Learned, than a How to...
I have changed my sewing technique.
I am getting better results and sewing at about twice the speed per length of cloth, even though I am using more stiches per inch.
The stitches are now much more regular, and look much better than before IMHO. Although still far from perfect.
Also, by attaching a small bag to one end of the sail, with a clothes peg, the fabric is held slightly taught. This makes it much easier to work with.
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TT
Nice work, and thanks for the great words and pics.
Technically what you are doing is "couching" - same as the gold braid attached to sleeves and caps. (incidentally removing the gold braid to recover the gold is a process known as "drivelling" (or so I have been told))
Very pleasing results you are getting. I can see that doing the bolt ropes and cringles is the only reason not to have 3 or more headsails!
Now I know why my trial suit of sails is always synthetic material cut with a soldering iron :}
andrew
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Now I know why my trial suit of sails is always synthetic material cut with a soldering iron :}
Hi Andrew
On a similar vien, I had an email from John C warning me that you cannot always trust the sail plan on boat plans to be adequate.
Perhpas cutting a set of trail sails would be a way of double checking.
However in my case I have not finished the hull yet, let alone stepped the mast, and finished the booms to do this.
I started the sails early as I have read that it can take many months of sewing, and task I dreaded, and so I started early as the sort of job that can be picked up and put down in between other tasks.
To be honest I have found sail making a very enjoyable task so far.
A short day to dye the fabric.
A short day to cut the templates, cut the cloth, and take to the sewing machine woman.
A short day for sewing the boat ropes on to each of the two sails I have done so far.
This is stuff you can pick up and put down easily and you can do it in the living room.
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Question
When making the holes to attach the mast hoops:
Would you punch a hole in the cloth with a needle and then push the weave apart to make a hole, and would this be big enough?
If so would you then whip stitch the edge of the hole?
OR
Would you cut a small hole and then whip stitch?
If so how would you cut the hole?
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just a thought tt.... :D...mark the all of hole positions with a single DOT then take the material to the Chinese lady with the sewing machine & ask if she can machine the whip stiching circles that small <*< ....Derek
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TT
To fix the mast hoops I would mark the spacing as derek suggests, and sew them with about 6 turns of button thread (very loose), knot it off then give the sail and thread a dab of my favourite "lock and anti unravel", water-based acrylic varnish .
But if your seamstress can make a rosette that would be even better and scaleish
andrew
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Good suggestion Derek I will ask if she can do this.
Andy,
I am not sure what you mean by 'about six turns of button thread'?
Do you mean six stitches to complete the circle, in a radial pattern (e.g. at roughly 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 o'clock positions)?
And why very loose?
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TT
Sorry, I wasn't clear at all. :((
What I meant was dont do any preparation of the hole , just sew the mast hoop to the sail with about half a dozen stitches (loose) - couple of turns round (whipping ) and a knot
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/masthoopj.jpg)
CAD dawing in LeftiCad
Viola!, Then paint with acrlyic varnish - which will also seal the holes in the sail
andrew
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Ah!
Now I get what you mean O0
Simple is best :-))
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I found this little diagram somewhere a while ago. It shows basically the same method as Andrew has described. I shall use this method on Colin Archer but not make the grommets as such. I don't think it will be justified at the scale involved. Apart from that i don't think I have the patience.
HTH
Guy
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Now then
If button thread is up to the job, I have small eyelets that would take 6 or 8 turns of thread easily. I could use these as grommets.
I am a bit surprised the button thread is up to the job. But I supose if it holds the buttons that stop my belly from escaping my shirt, they should be strong enough.
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TT
Ah! Now I see the confusion!
Button thread is not what buttons are sewn on with! Can't understand why you might jump to that conclusion :}
Its a (very) heavy version of sewing thread, also called pack-thread. If you had any you would know its strong enough and its also about scale for the cord that the full-size would have used.
I can sometimes find Linen thread on markets (in the UK) never had occasion to hunt in China :}
For first rigging I use copper wire stripped off a transformer for this king of thing
Guys picture is exactly what I was floundering to describe - if you have the eyelets you are deeply sorted!
andrew
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After a couple of months of distractions, I have been doing some modelling again.
Time to finish off the hull.
The difficult bit was the last little section of planking, especially where it joined the sternpost.
The planks needed to twist where they did not want to be twisted. I tried steaming and tried window cleaner, but it was still proving difficult.
Planks of 3x8mm didn't want to do it.
My bodge was to use planks that were between 3x3mm and 3x1mm. These were held in place with wedges as they glued. The ends were filed/sanded to fit the sternpost.
Some were over long.
After completing, the inside of hull was fibreglassed, and copious amounts of resin were used to fill the gaps and strengthen this section of planking. As I don't have microballoons to bulk up as a filler, I used sawdust. Ugly but it works.
There was a lot of excess resin that ran out of the hull. This was trimmed off, and the overlong planks were also cut and sanded to shape.
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Use of sawdust mixed with the resin, as a sustitute for microballoons.
Ugly but it works.
I have no idea what it would sand like. I assume OK.
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Now it is time to return to the tricky problem I had with the transom end.
Originally I used 3mm ply for the transom. The hull top planks kept springing, due to a lack of gluing area.
I replaced this section of transom with 8mm ply. This means that later on I will have to do this for the transom above the deck line as well. This will have a knock on effect for the upper frame, planking, and cap rails. But I will cross that bridge later.
There were also some difficulties with planking the transom that were overcome.
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To twist the planks to go around the curve of the transom I did the following.
First, planks were cut over length and then slash cut to create the wedge. This was an arbitrary angle.
Then soaked in window cleaner. I tested it first This made planks very flexible when wet, but they became firm again on drying.
Then planks were clamped together at the thin end, and twisted apart at the fat end. This gave them a 90 degree twist.
After that they were left to dry.
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The wedge shaped planks were pinned at one end, tacked with CA glue and taped together at the other end. This completed the rounded section of the stern.
The flats were then filled with available timer. Here I was using up scrap
There was still a section inside the hull that needed to be filled. This was also achieved with planking.
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The last part of the transom to be fitted was a filler that runs up to the rudder tube. This was glued in with Epoxy.
After this epoxy was used liberally where the planks join frame #10, and the transom. When set the whole transom area was rock solid.
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Next step was glassing inside the hull. Using epoxy and a light glass tissue I got in Halford's when I was back in the UK last year (Fast Glass brand).
I did not glass all the way to the top, as I wanted to leave some gluing surface for the rising posts. I think this was a mistake. I may go back and glass to the top edge, and then glue in the rising posts using epoxy.
Resin did escape through the planking. But this was cleaned off with a broad chisel and by sanding.
The other thing I did was use epoxy and sawdust as a filler to get down into the corners along the keel. The areas I cannot get in to glass. This also included where the planks meet the stem.
The next step will be sanding. And I now have a much more solid assembly to sand.
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The hull is nearing completion now.
I have used a bit of filler. The main bit for filling was the depression spotted by Derek Warner, before I have even begun planking.
And along the first (top) 3 planks where I had bent the planks with heat, and cut myself some difficult grain (I know better now).
I want this model to look 'planky', and so I have only used filler where sanding on its own would have left a hole perhaps.
Some bits of the hull I can see daylight through, good job she was fibreglassed inside.
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Looking very good, TT
The offer is prolly much too late but I could send you a bag of microbaloons if you would like (I bought a kilogramme of them so have lots needing a home) Sawdust is a great filler - I used to use a lot of balsa-cement-with-balsa-dust as a filler
Glad the stern planking is coming together - the whole hull is looking "real and planky" as you put it.
I strongly believe that your build is very encouraging to us mortals who know our limitations.
andrew
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Thanks Andrew.
My aim is to show that you don't have to be good to attempt a scratch build. And even when it goes wrong, you can make a reasonable bodge.
I pray to the God's of modelling every night and ask them for three things.
'Please make it so I can have more time for modelling'
'Please make me a better modeller'
'Please, please, please, oh great gods of modelling; never let me become a rivet counter' %)
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Amen to dat Brother :-)) ;)
Freebooter
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T T ,Your building has fasinated me .I Have only got the frames on mine .Yours looks damn good . well done . I Shall be watching .
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Excellent work Mark!!! :-))
Would you mind me asking what do you plan to use for the mast hoops?
Chuck
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Hi Chuck
The old method of taking a plane and making a few long shavings.
These shavings will be wrapped around a tube (my mast tube in this case) that is larger diameter than the mast. Wrapped and glued with PVA. The tube will be wrappen in clingfilm (food wrap) first, so that the ring does not glue to the tube.
Then dry the rings can be cut to length with my mini table saw. Alternatively they could be cut on the tube using a small hand saw, before sliding off.
I think Greggy did a mini-tutorial on his spin on this method on here. He then tested them to destruction.
I am on vacation for a month now. Perhaps I can get some dedicated time to advancing the build. Hope so.
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The next stages will be finishing the hull to the point where I can paint it and do a floating test, and thus find the Centre of Lateral Resistance.
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A side project that went wrong.
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Next part for the hull was fitting the rubbing strakes.
This is a layer of planking outside the hull at the widest part of the hull along its length. So that when the boat rubs against the harbour wall, or other boats, the rubbing strake takes the punishment, and not the main hull planking.
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Before fitting the stanchions I needed to work out where to put them and discovered an error in the plan. Apparently, reading around, errors common in plans.
In this case the stanchions are coincident with some of the bulkheads/frames. This does not work and so some of the stanchions were relocated.
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The stanchions were tacked in place with CA and problems became apparent when I offered up a bulwark plank.
Firstly, due to the earlier problems with my bad top two planks, some of the stanchions had a big gap cause by alignment problems.
Secondly, by taking a couple of marker poles (sticks) to the transom, it was clear that there is a transition of the line/angle of the last three stanchions becoming more vertical.
It became obvious that the transom would have to be extended before the stanchions could be fixed in their correct positions.
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It was clear that the transom needed to be fixed before a bulwark plank could be used to guide the placement of stanchions.
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The placement of the bulwark planks is not as important as the hull planks. They will not affect hydrodynamics. But they still need to look right.
With the transom extention in place, it was now possible to run a bulwark plank fore to aft.
Those stanchions that were spot on, or close, were left in place. Those that were obviously out were knocked off to be refitted.
The last three stanchions at the stern (where they move through the vertical) could now also be fitted.
The stanchions that needed to be adjusted were glued with epoxy and a filler (sawdust - no microbaloons) to pad them out and fix the position.
When all set. I went around the hull drizzling some epoxy to firmly fix every stanchion.
N.B. the bulwark plank is not glued. It is just clipped in place to act as a guide to glue the stanchions.
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TT
She's comming on nicely..Keep it up
Freebooter
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Next Job is the gutters.
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Next step
Rudders. This was a deliberate simple method of fitting the rudder.
I only have very thin brass. And so I used aluminium. Hopefully there will not be materials conflict or electolysis between the brass rudder tube and aluminium.
Can somebody advise?
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My next step will be to get her out on the water.
Firstly, to check for leaks.
Secondly, test ballast.
Thirdly, to find the centre of lateral resistance (CLR). See reply 14.
This needs to be done before the deckbeams are fitted really.
Before this can happen she needed to have her bottom painted.
I am using a domestic primer. A 1cm brush was used for this. That way any brush marks will at least be in scale.
I will spray over with the final colour and expect/want brush marks to show.
I cannot find rattle cans of primer, except Tamiya etc. (£6 a small can). The paint I used is called an Enamel Primer, Undercoat and Sealer. It is 100% acrylic. It was the only primer I could find in a small tin (1 pt), and cost equivalent of £10. Paint is expensive.
I have done a compatibility test with the rattle cans of colour I will be using. No conflict when topcoating with either of the Chinese brands of spray. And no conflict with Tamiya tins either. However, the Tamiya paint blistered when sprayed over the Chinese brand rattle cans. And so I will not be using Tamiya paints on this one.
The rudder will also need to be fitted to check the CLR.
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Really coming along now Mark (a little plant food and the you should be able to grow the short stancion) {-) {-)
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Cheers Phil :-)
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Looking really good Mark :-))
I use Acrylic Artists paints (In tube's) for my period model ships... I find it gives a good textured finish that I have been told looks realistic.... the number of colours is massave, its easy to blend or mix and a coat or two of satin or mat varnish makes it watertight
Freebooter :-))
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Quick job.
I need to modify/make a building stand.
Before there was a sort of a keel clamp, but now things are getting painted, including the keel, I need to make a stand/cradle for it.
I just used scrap ply and some exercise mat (green), glued on with epoxy, to prevent scratches.
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Now she has got some paint on her I decided to do a float test.
The original plan says to use about 4kg of ballast in the keel. In the picture here she has about 7.5 kg and she is still at least an inch above the waterline.
Also checked how effective the rudder was. Rudder effective
She leaks. It is seeping in around the buttocks area {:-{. I am guessing this is down to the fact that the primer is not waterproof. I have since geven her another coat of Epoxy on the inside, and with a coat of topcoat paint on the outside this should do it. After painting I will have to do another float check.
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There was also a problem with the Centre of Lateral Resistance (CLR), it was much further back than anticipated.
There was a madness in the logic, to guestimate the CLR from the sail plan, see reply #15.
The flawed logic, that a ballanced boat would have the CLR roughly in line with the centre of effort (COE) of sails. It was later pointed out that the CLR needs to be behind the COE to give weather helm. I did not expect it to be so far behind.
There are a number of options for fixing this.
Option 1 is favourite at the moment, but option 5 is also considered.
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Next job painting the hull.
I wanted to give a first coat of paint to go out and do the float test again and before I do the deck.
I first needed to create a paint shop area. This was indoors. It is subzero temperatures outside again, and windy.
I used some cheap plastic sheeting. It is not really a tarp as it is not waterproof. I strung this up against the walls, using the external (to the wall) water pipes.
And I also used some odds of ply on the floor as a base.
My trusty old microwave turntable was used again to rotate the object being painted.
The hull was given a good wash after the float test and then given a quick once over with 600 wet and dry (used wet). This also knocked off some specks of dust that were making lumps in the paint.
Areas of the boat where there is still gluing to be done were masked. This includes the stanchions and part of the stempost.
Using a rattle can.
The hull covered well, except for one pin head size bubble that would not cover. I can only assume I have a grease spot. I will clean, sand and repaint.
I am happy with the planky effect achieved. This was one of my aims. Also the brush marks from the primer stage also remain, this was also intended.
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Hi,T Tiger.I Am watching your build ,really looks good .I Am still looking at mine ,still as was ,two frames on keel ,as you have said ,I Need to make a VERY good building jig .This kit really has a lot going for it .And for the price ,I reckon very good value .T T .. i am watching and really am impressed ,together is the other chap ,Master Mariner .Jimmy James .
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TT
Mark one of our club members has this model sailing .... His has a fiber glass hull and it took just over 20 lbs of lead to get her into sailing trim....( she,s trimmed down by the stern) .... She sails well and tacks and wears easily ... but ... to acheave this he needed two sail servos one for the main and one for the head sails I'll try to get you some photos of her sailing so you can judge the trim
Jimmy :-))
Nice to hear from you Dave ...Hows the Build going
Jimmy
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Just read your posting from the 12th, TT.
I think your CLR is fine - that's not too far aft - and your original plan for a straight fin and ballast should be ok. You "might" need to apply a little weather helm when sailing close-hauled, but that's what the full-sizers would do.
Keep it up - I'm enjoying this build very much.
Andy
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Hi Andy
I also think the CLR is ok. ;)
My fear is that if I put the keel where originally proposed, the CLR will move too far forward. Thus causing lee helm. And so I will have to move it back.
The mast will be fixed and little room for adjusting for lee helm here.
Ho Hum %)
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Hi TT,
I understand your fears, but consider - with the rudder on, the CLR will move backwards. Adding the fin will move it forwards. I wouldn't, at this stage, personally worry about quite where it's going to land, now you're in the right sort of area, which I think you clearly are. Here's why: your fin is as much to carry ballast low down, in order to provide a greater righting moment, as it is to increase lateral resistance, which will already be considerable from the hull form, what with its full-length keel. So IF (big if) you end up with copious helm of the weather or lee variety (and I really don't think you will) you could always decrease or increase the fin area to correct this.
Regards,
Andy
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Goin' well TT :}
When I make an aircraft of crazy distinctive configuration - perhaps a canard biplane ducted fan delta I don't install the CG till after the test flights . This saves me from getting it in the wrong place
P'raps you could leave off the centre of pressure till after the first sail?
Sorry about that, I feel better now
I love your degree of plankiness - found this "Planky" pic on the Smacks and Bawleys website
http://www.betty-ck145.com/docueng/betty_ck145/betty_ck145.html
Which you might like for inspiration anyway - there are a lot of nice rig and detail pics
andrew
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Hi Andrew - good point about the CoP, and nice to hear from you.
Weather and lee helm are issues primarily when close-hauled. IF (another big if!) you find it a problem once rigged, you could always alter the CoP when close-hauled by sheeting in less or more on that big forward jib. Loads of leverage there, and - no doubt - more than enough to tweak the CoP enough even though the mast's fixed. This is, after all, not an out-and-out racer?
Andy
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Andrew
Great Website thanks.
Andy
Good point about sheeting the jib. That is probably the best way to go. Thanks.
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Two other ways to tweak weather or lee helm is
1) shift your jib up from the hounds to the top of the top mast {:-{
2) adjust your topmast fore stay and back stays to rake the mast slightly fore or aft {:-{ :-))
Both or either of these methods will shift the sail balance forward or aft ---- the Lowestoft sailing trawlers ,Smacks and Drifters used to regularly rake their Fore top mast FWD to ease the helm or aft to get closer to the wind :-)) O0
Freebooter
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These are the only pictures I have saved of Marks boat.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/Tess3.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/Tess.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JMB2/Tess2.jpg)
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JB
Tell Mark I said {-)that topsail still sets like Maggy's knickers %%
De Freebooter
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Tiger
The pictures "JM" just posted is in about a Force 4 (!! to 16 kts) the boat only has internal ballast( about 20 to 22 lbs) no external keel., She sails well , but ,because of the long straight keel can be a bit slow in stays, All said, Shes a lovely craft and is fairly steady
Jimmy
De Freebooter :-))
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Thanks for posting the pics and the comments.
Build slow at the moment as my schedule is eratic and the workshop is not at home.
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Excellent job TT
She's comming on just great :-))
And some inspiring photos from JMB too O0
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Thx
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Hello all,
TT this looks great so much detail, I am very glad that you are posting it all on here. I am currently working on a deans marine kit of hms bulldog but would like to scratch build Louis Heloise as my next project and first yacht.
Due to space I am thinking of doing it on a 1:20 scale rather than the 1:10 of the plans what problems would there be with the with doing so? I would assume that the performance will be not as good in high winds and all the wood would need to be thinner. Is that correct?
Are plans are the ones from marine modeling international as http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mar2431.html (http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mar2431.html) , I have contacted marine modeling international to see if by chance they have the back issues for that far back. I would like to see all their pictures but I don't expect they keep them for that long.
I look forward to see the progress.
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T T . Well done for showing us your Build of this lovely craft .As you know ,I have been attempting the build ,but alas ,I am a coward ,thought i had it made when i thought i had a bargain in buying a hull ,ready made ,may/be it was ,but i could not make head nor tail ,mostly because i am no joiner ,and i could,nt get my head around the french instructions even thoughi have the previous magazine from some years ago ,this explained a lot ,.but now i have put it in a box ,the original box it came in ,everything is put out of site before i do any more damage ..Just need some on to take it away ,do the hull and hard parts ,and then i can carry on .Shame i am no joiner as You have made a really good looker .. now i am open for ANY suggestions ,this kit ,i am led to believe ,is a limited edition ,so i must hang on ...
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Hi Jenkins
Yep same plans
Hi Dave
I am no joiner either. It really is a bodge job.
BTW Building still on hold. I am in Thailand until September, and then I am possibly moving house again when I get home to China.
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As someone else has referred to this thready, I thought it deserved a quick update.
Since I began this model I have gone through 5 house moves (7 relocations) needing things to be put on hold.
Where I live now, I do not have easy access to water. With a boat this size and weight I would need to get to the water's edge. Unfortunately the local government have a habit of walling in watercourses with 2-3 meter walls. I can lift in smaller boats, but nothing heavy. The model is also too big to sit on the window ledge as decoration.
Therefore, reluctantly, this build is on permanent hold.