Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Other Technical Questions... => Topic started by: TCC on December 17, 2008, 02:12:36 AM

Title: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 17, 2008, 02:12:36 AM
Hi
I want to try upscaling a 1:196 plan to 1:144, this equals 1/16th on an inch per foot to 1/12th or the first has 16 feet per inch while the latter has 12 ft per ... .

What is the percentage difference? If I scan the plan, how many % do I need to enlarge it to get it right?

In my rough tests, I scanned the actual 1/16th scale on the plan (2" long) and have dragged the resizing handles to 3 & 5/16ths long (which is the resultant size of that box on my comercially upscaled plan). That reports it is being enlarged by 132.something % to 134.4% to 136.x%. I get differing results on where I grab the resizing handles and if I do it in MM or ".

This is why I'd like to do it mathematically. Can anyone help?
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on December 17, 2008, 08:19:22 AM
Multiply by 196 then divide by 144. This is 136.11% according to my calculator.
FLJ
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: RickF on December 17, 2008, 12:27:53 PM
What are you doing the scaling on? If it's a photocopier you cannot rely solely on the calculated percentage, and you need to print off a test. In fact, whatever you are using, computer program or copier, I would take a known length at the smaller scale, do the enlargement and then print out  that bit of the plan and actually measure it.

Rick
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 17, 2008, 08:18:14 PM
1/16" to the foot is 1:192.  To get from 1:192 to 1:144 Multiply by 1.3333. If you have 1:196 plans then scale by 1.3611 to get 1:144 as FLJ said.

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 19, 2008, 04:50:08 PM
What are you doing the scaling on?
Rick

Thanks FLJ.. but as doug said, I messed up. It's 192, not 196.  I think there's another error in my post somewhere as when I re-read what I'd posted, I thought I'll have to correct that tommorrow. Anyway, Sorry about that.

One Q: multiply what by 192?

Rick, I'm scanning on a scanner, enlarging in Photoshop, and printing on an inkjet. [I wish I had this gear years agoo when I built this model.. doesn't it make 'plans' and thus building, so much easier?


 If it's a photocopier you cannot rely solely on the calculated percentage, and you need to print off a test. In fact, whatever you are using, computer program or copier, I would take a known length at the smaller scale, do the enlargement and then print out  that bit of the plan and actually measure it.

I have done. I did a few of these when I was messing around with my rough way of doing it. Result? the prints I made are pretty damn close to the actual model I've built. Individual fittings are very close or exact to the plan... Except when I'm trying to join the sheets, one or two of them are just a bit too big or too small to those either side, so straight lines that go from end-to-end hve a dog leg in them. I'll re-do and make sure I'm a bit more clinical about it.


Thanks Doug.
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 20, 2008, 11:39:16 AM
[One Q: multiply what by 192?


TCC

If your plan is 1:192 and you want 1:144 multiply/enlarge your original by 1.33 (133%) thus a 3 inch measurement on the original should become 4 inches on the new plan. If you multiply the original by 192 you will get full size! Not what you want I think  :D

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 21, 2008, 12:39:49 AM
Doug
Sorry about that... I'd say I was going senior but I'm a bit young for that.

I was sitting there the other day and I'm thinking 'multiply what?' and nothing would compute. :-)
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 25, 2008, 10:22:49 AM
One thing to watch for with photocopiers and probably anything else is the aspect ratio distortion that can creep in.  This caught me a few times with earlier copiers when tiling up drawings, and might still apply.   A couple of percent on something small would not be noticed - on a large item it could make a considerable difference when trying to match up joins between sheets.
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 26, 2008, 05:09:34 PM
One thing to watch for with photocopiers and probably anything else is the aspect ratio distortion that can creep in.  This caught me a few times with earlier copiers when tiling up drawings, and might still apply.   A couple of percent on something small would not be noticed - on a large item it could make a considerable difference when trying to match up joins between sheets.

Yes, I don't know where I'm going wrong:

I'm scanning on an epson A4 scanner and I leave the scanning area (and settings @ 100%) the same throughout the range. I import into photoshop, tweak for brightness/contrast, resize by 133.33% and then print them out @ 100%. I assembled the prints into 2 ranges, one of a plan view of the model, one a side view. Mt orig comercially resized plan, and my maths, say it should be 58" and 5/8ths.

One is 58 and 3/8ths and the other is about 58 and 3/4s!!

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought that this would have been so hard to get right! As you can see, I'm not that far out (2/8ths and 1/8th either way) but it's still disconcerting when you can't account for it.

Aspect Ratio? Yes.. maybe.. but I can't figure where as at the csanning stage, I don't touch the settings after the initial setting of them. Nor at resizing when the 'Keep Aspect Ratio' box is ticked.
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: kiwi on December 26, 2008, 06:43:20 PM
 :-))
Hi Guys,
A thought re your scaling problem, and it may not be the answer, but, Copiers only adjust to 1% increments, and what you are getting is 0.6% difference. Now your photoshop tweek of 133.33%, you sure it is to exactly that, to two decimal places? Now I know that even though you haven't changed the settings between the two sheets, theres maybe a slight difference in the second and third decimal rounding, which you cannot see, because the computer does this in the background and you have little control of it.
Try reprinting but at 101% for the first sheet (the one that gave you 50 and 3/8ths) and then the other as before 100%), this "may" get the two sheets closer matched.
If this doesn't result in an acceptable match, try going back to the original, adjust in photoshop, but instead of using 133.33% for both, reduce the larger one (133.12%) and increase the smaller one (133.76%) and then try printing both again at a constant setting. (you may want to fiddle the quoted percentages a bit, as my maths is a bit random at times).
Hope this helps a little
kiwi
All the best for the new year

Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 28, 2008, 01:12:09 PM
Hi Kiwi
the problem is I've printed out each A3 sheet and I'm joining them and 1 or 2 from each stitch (plan or side view) is slightly too big or too small... and you don't know if that odd one is right and the rest are wrong or they are all right and the oddy is wrong. If you follow?

{but this is all null anyway as I've been measuring both without taking into account that the side view IS longer than the top as the plan viw is just the deck, and not the HULL which is a bit longer (ram bow) but there's a 'cruiser' stern to minus from it as well.

But to anyone doing this after me, join your scans in software and get all the stitching right, print it out and if it's not right, go back to the computer and resize it till it is. (I'd have done this but the computer is full of images and theres not enough free space to do anything on it until I do a disc writing session. So many things to do, so little time... )
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 28, 2008, 03:55:44 PM
Quote
you don't know if that odd one is right and the rest are wrong or they are all right and the oddy is wrong
Just take a measurement of a single item on the original, do the times-144-and-divide-by-192, and see if it fits on the resultant page.
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 28, 2008, 07:07:15 PM
Quote
you don't know if that odd one is right and the rest are wrong or they are all right and the oddy is wrong
Just take a measurement of a single item on the original, do the times-144-and-divide-by-192, and see if it fits on the resultant page.

As we want to enlarge the original plan we should be taking an original meausurement and multiply by 192 and divide by 144 and check against the enlargement.

If we take the measurement from the enlarged version then we multiply by 144 and divide by 192 to check against the original.

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 29, 2008, 10:27:29 AM
Very true - I really should let the effects wear off before tackling things like thinking.  {:-{
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on December 29, 2008, 11:36:42 AM
Very true - I really should let the effects wear off before tackling things like thinking.  {:-{

At least it 'wears off you', I live with confusion, doubt and ignorance 24/7!!!
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 29, 2008, 02:18:51 PM

At least it 'wears off you', I live with confusion, doubt and ignorance 24/7!!!

Yes, but what do you do for the rest of the time?  8)   {-) %% {:-{
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: Seaspray on December 29, 2008, 03:23:32 PM
Its the drawing that has to change to the required scale.

I believe the more arithmetic / maths / software methods to get the size, might just give a you a lemon.

Been very interested in reading the threads containing  "scales" and "how to scale" for some time now.

Would like to see a list of the common scales (on the forum) we use and how they are worked out ..as there is 96 eighths in a ft. scale is 1/96. So I think were saying 1/8 on the plan is a foot on the real boat / ship??? 

Coverting to another scale or Metric is beyond me.   %%

Although I have 5 arithmetic / maths qualifications, scale or its formula was never on the syllabus

Till I master it, its off to the printers   {:-{

Seaspray


Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 29, 2008, 05:19:04 PM
Seaspray

re your request for a list of scales try here
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14483.msg139241#msg139241

Is that what you want?

Unfortunately, I know of no maths free way of calculating scales or converting from one scale to another. I just treat it all as fractions or ratios. Works for me  :-)

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: RickF on December 30, 2008, 12:10:04 AM
Actually, unless you are using commercially available components, or entering a competition that requires you to build to a specific scale, there is no need to do it at all. If you just want a model that's three feet long, build it that size. All you need to do is divide the original length - say 270 feet -  by the intended length of the model - 3 feet - to get the scale - 1/90. Then everything is 1/90 original size. We sometimes make things too complicated for ourselves.

Rick
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: Seaspray on December 30, 2008, 11:59:31 AM
Cheers  :-))  :-))

dougal99 I've printed off your reply for a quick reminder

RickF  I'll have a go at your reply to get the hang of it.

Seaspray
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dougal99 on December 30, 2008, 01:51:37 PM
Actually, unless you are using commercially available components, or entering a competition that requires you to build to a specific scale, there is no need to do it at all. If you just want a model that's three feet long, build it that size. All you need to do is divide the original length - say 270 feet -  by the intended length of the model - 3 feet - to get the scale - 1/90. Then everything is 1/90 original size. We sometimes make things too complicated for ourselves.

Rick

I'm all for the KISS principle, but using your method (assuming you have scale plans) you would need to take a measurement from the plan, convert it to full size and then divide by your chosen scale. Surely easier to work out the factor once and have the plans scaled in a copy shop?

However, each to his own  :-))

Doug
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: kiwi on December 30, 2008, 07:01:58 PM
Hi All,
Have been following this thread with interest.
We appear to have two methods of getting drawings from one size to another.
one - take it to a copy shop (or do your own thing with scanning and reprinting)
two - measure from original and redraw at the required scale.
ok - the first requires a bit of simple maths to get the required scale conversion, and a bit of faith in modern technology to actually do what you want.
ok - the second - can be done basically two ways - shall we say method A is where one measures the original, converts it (in head, on paper, or using calculator), Murphies favourite as the opportunities for him are endless.
method B for the thinking person. Use two scale rules - scale the original with appropriate scale rule. Then use the scale rule of the scale you want and draw. Hey presto, no calculations, read from first scale and draw from matching position on new scale. Don't have the appropriate scale? then make one, very simple.
Redrawing from paper plans into a computer, once again use appropriate scale for paper drawing, draw into computer -BUT AT A SCALE OF 1:1 - FULL SIZE - (ie if the ship you wish to model is 80 feet long, then draw in CAD a ship 80 feet long. When done, print off at what scale you want your model to be - that way any minor errors, inaccuracies or such are scaled down and probably cannot be noticed, and if adding detail from photo reference you are working in real units, not trying to convert in your head etc.
Also, if you or your fellow modellers then want to make a model of a different size, simply reprint at the new scale, you know it has to be right.
Anyway, that's my two bobs worth, and how I was taught to do things by wiser men than me, back in the sixties of the last century.
cheers

kiwi
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on February 08, 2009, 12:04:31 PM
Hi
can I ask this same question in a different form? The above won't work for this.

I have a plan at 1:250 and I'm scanning parts and want to print them at 1:144. How do I do it?

I hope to do it in 'Photoshop' where I can enlarge/reduce by percentage or by in-putting a finished size in Inch or CM (or MM)

I tried last night but the percentage box won't accept numbers higher than 22xx%.

What it is is I have roughly the same ship on 2 different plans, 1 on 1:250 and 1 on a 1:144 plan... I'm trying to marry the 2 up so that I can use the drawings of fittings on the 250 plan, which are more detailed, than on my 1:144 version.

I'm trying to us the method above [take a known size, multiply it by 250 to get to the real size and divide by 144 to get it back down to my scale] but I don't have the 'original known size' as it's a sheet of paper. Well I do have the paper and can measure if I need but that seems prone to innacuracy as any errors in measuring will then be multiplied by 144..

I'm hoping there's a clever mathematical way to do it. Cheers.
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 08, 2009, 12:38:55 PM
Plan is at 1/250th.

Open Photoshop and scan at your maximum resolution. Say 300dpi? For Photoshop 6.0 you could then do this:

Go to "Image/Image Size..." and you'll see "Width" and "Height" boxes. Checking that the "Constrain Proportions" box is ticked, put in, as "Width" a number which is the old width * 1.7361.

This number is 250/144. (Above "1", as we're making the 1/250th plans bigger.)

Save this, since you may need to crop it to fit your printer.

Under "File/Print Options..." ensure that the "Scale" box is set to 100%, and that you've not got a tick in the "Scale to Fit Media" box.

Print it - the result should be at 1/144th.

It's easier to set a photocopier to 173.61%, though, and check the output.

Andy



Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on February 08, 2009, 01:38:48 PM
Andy, 'you de man'!

So it's 173.61%

I did the sums, printed it, checked it and am awarding you a gold star. * Hell, you may as well have a big one

 *How did you work that out?

I've been measuring of the QUEEN MARY plan, multiplying by 250 and dividing by 144 and doing fittings that way, now I can scan to the right size, I can knock up my own plans in photoshop for fittings by interchanging bits off both plans and then printing them off.

Can say how helpful that is... all I'm short of is an 'Anatomy of a Ship' book on LION. :-))
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 08, 2009, 02:17:08 PM
Thanks for the star!

And, yes, an AoTS for any more WW1 Grand Fleet ships would be tremendous. Though I won't hold my breath - I know the publishers need to make what'll sell, and I think the market's pretty small for anything other than the Dreadnought and Warspite. Though Lion, Invincible and Iron Duke could maybe have made it at a pinch?

Andy
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on February 09, 2009, 04:33:53 PM
Thanks for the star!
You're welcome. :-)

And, yes, an AoTS for any more WW1 Grand Fleet ships would be tremendous. Though I won't hold my breath - I know the publishers need to make what'll sell, and I think the market's pretty small for anything other than the Dreadnought and Warspite. Though Lion, Invincible and Iron Duke could maybe have made it at a pinch?

Andy


Well you could think that about BELFAST, GAMBIER BAY or the Brit fleet carrier they've done (is it VICTORIOUS?) as those builds will be in the single figures too.

You an make a case for the corvette and D'NOUGHT though as they are popular kits... especially the former.

Does the DREADNOUGHT AOTS book give detailed drawings of the secondary armament and the AA/saluting guns?

I do have an image of her firing her 'Q' turret broadside, iirc, it's a deck shot including all the winches and deck slutter. Do you think you've got it?

Cheers
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 10, 2009, 04:19:42 PM
The Dreadnought AotS book gives substantial detail of the 12lb-er secondary guns. Which is good, because I need ~24 of them...  <:(

There's less info on the HA guns - so I'll need photos to help build these, but that's a long way off yet.

On the photo - I'm not sure I have that one. There's a "famous" (bear with me, none-Dreadnought-readers - we're in the land of anoraks here) one of her X and Y turrets being busy. Is there any chance of a scan?

Many thanks,

Andy
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on February 10, 2009, 05:31:20 PM
Yep... I'll swap ya! LOL

I've left it with the half-tone dots that make up the image as removing them can soften whatever detail is in it, and there's not a lot. I didn't sharpen it either because it just sharpens these dots and doesn't do much for the image. I can do if you'd like? Give us an e-mail addy and I'll send you the bigger version but it's not got any more detail in it. The book is from about 36-37.

This is the scanned image:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/DreadnoughDeck.jpg)


How are you for Wasteney-Smith anchors?

Here's what I have:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/DreadnoughtAnchors.jpg)

The above is from a US Govt. naval archive... and where I think I've seen the image you're talking about.

and anchors:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/WL_Byers_Stockless_Anchor.png)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/Wasteneys_Smiths_stockless_anchor.png)

I've made my own anchors and I think I got them both wrong a bit, I think the the byers anchor flutes detail is transposed, depressions should be protusions and vice cersa. The wastney smith.. the bit betwen the flute and the body foxed me... but all my achors rotate to 45 and then stop, just like the real things. ;-)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/HMS%20LION/Anchors-Painted.jpg)

John Haynes has images of some anchors on his site, they may be your scale if you're interested.

Cheers
paul
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 11, 2009, 09:39:07 AM
Hi Paul - that top photo is not one I've seen before, but it's X turret, not one of the wing ones.

Hmmm...coaling hatch is flush with the deck: that's good - the "stuck on" Dean's model ones feel very wrong. What else?

Where's the blast bags for the 12"ers?
And that big metal thing resting next to the right hand barrel? Is that a searchlight cover?
Good view of the coaling winch.
Tampions in the 20lb-ers.
Towing cable wrapped around the base of X barbette.
Awning stanchions still standing where the crew are, dropped where the turret's training.
I'm sure I've seen "cleared for action" photos where the net davits are laid back onto the deck.

My anchors - they're looking ok. I've made "a few" in card and Milliput. I'll be casting the best of these later, once there's enough moulds made up to do things in a batch.

Regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: TCC on February 12, 2009, 12:24:17 AM

Hi Paul - that top photo is not one I've seen before, but it's X turret, not one of the wing ones.
ah! I was half right.. I knew it was a turret in action.

Hmmm...coaling hatch is flush with the deck: that's good - the "stuck on" Dean's model ones feel very wrong. What else?

How many do you have to do? I didn't count ine but there was no way I was drilling 30-40? holes in the planking. So I've used a hole cutter to pucj a circle in paper and painted it grey. I'm not happy with them as the coaling hatches have a pattern to them. I don't know how else to portray them short of getting a drill out.

Where's the blast bags for the 12"ers?
LIONs 2ndary positions have a bit of a non-standard pattern to the blast bags... it's only the ones pointing fore or to the beam that have them. The rearward ones in the aft structure don't have them. But the main guns have always had them.

But DREADNOUGHT without them? Well aren't they to prevent the blast from neighbouring guns? Don't know anything else that could prod you to a conclusion.
And that big metal thing resting next to the right hand barrel? Is that a searchlight cover?

That 'wooden frame' with the wire diagonals looks like oone of those joiners benches... actually, it looks like a bench for sharpening a saw... and I'm thiking workman/joiner as there's barrels full of hardware/stores/equipment nearby... but it could just be a tressle/table.
Good view of the coaling winch.
Can't tell you how much I detest giving you that when I go without.  ok2
Tampions in the 20lb-ers.
Towing cable wrapped around the base of X barbette.
Does AOTS give a clue on how they fix that to the deck? I'm guessing eyelets in the hawser and shackled to eyebolts on the deck?
Awning stanchions still standing where the crew are, dropped where the turret's training.
I'm sure I've seen "cleared for action" photos where the net davits are laid back onto the deck.
would they remove the brailing davits to fire the main guns? I haven't seen that. Stanctions? yes! But not those davits.

My anchors - they're looking ok. I've made "a few" in card and Milliput. I'll be casting the best of these later, once there's enough moulds made up to do things in a batch.
Well where did I go wrong on the w-smiths? What's the area betwen the flukes and the body like?

cheers
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 12, 2009, 04:46:59 PM
Ahhh...

Here's a picture from the AoTS Dreadnought book.

(http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.goddard/dreadnought/real001.jpg)

Looks familiar?

It was taken at a similar time to your closer shot. The metal disc on the deck (which appears to be a searchlight reflector, now I read the blurb) has moved between shots, while everything else is more or less the same. More or less the same, since - without telephoto lenses - our photographer has had to move between shots.

Andy
Title: Re: Upscaling plan from 1/16th to 1/12th: how many %?
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 13, 2009, 11:56:41 AM
Apologies for the last post - the image ought be:

(http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.goddard/dreadnought/real005.jpg)

...this one.

(I've just had a bit of a Spring clean among my files storage, and we can't back-edit posts in Mayhem.  <:(

Andy