Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Bryan Young on February 05, 2009, 06:37:17 pm
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I have "Model Boats" (and its earlier incarnations) going back to the 1950s. It is extremely difficult to find a particular item /article or subject without spending hours wading through the contents pages. Is there a reasonably cheap program available to enable me to make a cross-referenced data base for all this guff? I don't mind putting in the hours setting it up if it saves me weeks of searching in the future.....and doing it during this cold spell is another bonus. I'm sure other members could benefit from this as well as me.
Cheers. BY.
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Bryan
Why not make up an excel spreadsheet with hyperlinks to all the articles in a particular edition you could include a short entry to tell you what the article was about. Saves having to buy database software
Brian
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The Open Office suite has a database included. Not sure if you can download it on its own though.
http://openoffice.3-suite.com/index.asp?aff=105&camp=gg_op_uk&se=google
Colin
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Model Boats magazine have talked about doing a complete 'index'...
http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=1004
But nothing has come of it.... yet..
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If you just want a list that can be readily searched Excel will do the business. However, if you want something more fancy the Open Office database is free but has a fairly steep learning curve. Most Windows based computers come with Microsoft Works already loaded. This has a database application. If you have it take a look. (I haven't tried it myself so I can't recommend it).
HTH
Doug
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Bryan, do you have any flavour of Microsoft Office on your PC?
If so - then "Access" would work really well. This is a database programme with loads of bells and whistles. Whilst it's not "obvious" in terms of generating the basics of a database, the hard work is in terms of plugging in the data. If you like, (and if you have Access) then I'd be more than willing to do the "front end" stuff if you're up for going through every mag and sticking in the info.
You'd be able to search by boat type, designer, size, scale, period - all sorts. If you're interested, please feel free to drop me a PM.
Regards,
Andy
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I could be wrong, I think Access is only on MS Office Pro.
For one of the boat magazines I have seen a list of every issue and its contents.
A sort of Master Index. Sorry I cannot remember if this is MMI or MB, but it is on the mags website.
If it is for the one you want it will make your job much easier, as you will not need to go through every mag by hand, this could save you a lot of time and energy.
A great idea Bryan, and one that would be appreciated by others I am sure.
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As an aside. There are two American mags (one discontinued) that have every copy printed available on CD.
I think one may be Ships in Scale. Complete sets about 10 000 pages for $73 on 2 discs.
Now that is smart thinking. I wish MMI and MB would do this.
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Hi Bryan,this is a GREAT idea and one I've desired for many years, a fully comprehensive Model Boat Article central resource.
Now with the internet and we're really smart, we could do this ourselves and all contribute to the project!
If we will need to agree on a set of desirable information to build a "relational" database but we can decide on the mechanics
later (database, spreadsheet, webpage, etc.) but what information do we need? I tender:
Article name;
Article Type; (plan, kit review, construction, how to, club, modeller, real ship, New product, Tools, etc, etc.)
Article Tag line; ( Jim Bloges visits HMS Victory Portsmouth, etc )
Article subdivision; (electric, steam, radio, batteries, sports boat, yacht, canal boat, etc, etc.)
Names; (Writer, Builder, Ship, Club, location, etc, etc.)
Issue; ( Year, month, No, Page)
Search Words; (Liberty, Kort, Brushless, planking, etc, etc.)
So typically someone could email in the following "record";
Blue Bird II - Construction - Charles builds a classic motor yacht from MMI plans - Plans build - Charles Sells - Malcolm Campbell - MMI, Feb, 2009, p42 - MAR2904, Goole Shipbuilding Co, Dunkirk, Chelsea, Baudoin, Colberg, Bob Sheila Harvey-George, plank-on-frame, twin motors.
I could find a way of setting this up but only if enough Mayhemers are willing to contribute their time on effort.
Doesn't have to be a full time job, just sending in one "record" a week would be enough to get it going.
Setting up a database is a tricky prospect as it has to be got right at the outset and I'm willing to do that...
BUT it's up to you....... ... is this worth perusing? Who's on-board?
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A great idea to extend Bryans initiative, Martin.
We would also need to think of a way of avoiding duplication (or even multiplication) of effort, especially for more recent articles.
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Bryan, I think most of it has been said but I would definately recommend a data base. The best is Access but it only comes with Office Pro so not quite as readily available.
A freeware database application such as open office would be the next best bet and probably do what you want very well.
XL would do the job and be searchable but nothing like the slick interface of a data base.
I have played around putting data bases together in the past so I did get a feel for what is required and whilst there is a bit of learning involved the benefits are well worth it. I would start off by having a play around with a sample data base and see how it is put together and possibly how you can hack around an existing one.
Having lived with the results over many years of a multitude of people putting information into a data base, I'm not the greatest fan (ships planned maintenance data base). I realise that it can spread the work out but it leads to inconsistencies and can mean nearly as much work editing it all afterweards to get it consistent.
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Yes in would be nice to have, but being not too much into computers I would still like it and try and put some info on it. I put most of the builds on to word then to PDF files which is good for me. I have the time at the moment to do this. But ready data base would be the thing.
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Martin,
If you do use Access ( or any other relational database) it would be relatively easy to add additional fields once you got going. I have done this several times when I had a proper job. Also, isn't there an option to make a 'complied' version of the your Access database so that it will run without having the Access program on your PC - a bit like the pps powerpoint files?
Having a copy of Access (2 in fact) I would offer to do the design work, but will not be around for the next 8 weeks.
Barrie
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MMI have a neat search page for all their back issues and articles on this page...
http://www.marinemodelmagazine.com/search/search.aspx?cid=3852 (http://www.marinemodelmagazine.com/search/search.aspx?cid=3852)
Hopefully MB will do the same at some time.
Richard
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A little bit too much enthusiasm here for my liking! Databases are very deceptive creatures. They are like a steeply shelving beach - one moment you are splashing about in the shallows, the next you are in over your head and drowning. As part of my old job I spent 20 years designing, maintaining and developing a PC network based property management and accounting system which is still in use. I was also heavily involved in converting much of the data to the heavyweight SAP system which my misguided employers decided to buy.
This would be a relatively simple application but the fact that you can easily get hold of a package and throw a few fields together certainly doesn't guarantee success. If it did it would have been done long ago. I have looked at the possibility of cataloguing Model Boats articles on several occasions and come to the conclusion that life is too short! That is not to say that it can't be done, only that a lot more effort is required than you think, and I'm not just referring to wading through all the issues and typing in the material. Martin may have got the basic field structure more or less right but a good deal more work would be needed to correctly identify which data should be placed in them. The relationship between article type and subdivision is a particular hazard. What is a type and what is a subdivision? Might be hard getting agreement there. And then you will find that on each of those levels you have an article that falls into more than one heading which you can't normally have in a hierarchical database. A lot of data analysis is involved including applying what is termed third normal form. (Google it). The keyword facility gets around this to some extent but you must have a standard set of keywords, you can't just make them up as you go along and there will be an awful lot of them so you may need a separate sub database to hold them with the same issues I've just described for the main one.
A simple word search could be a further alternative but would only really work properly if you have the text of the full articles held in the system which realistically ain't gonna happen.
Then comes the question of how do you distribute and maintain the database? You can't rely on all the "customers" having the same database software as you do so you need to send it out as a standalone application which can be installed on any PC (or Mac?) which usually entails buying the developer edition of the database package which can be expensive. Then of course, the thing goes out of date every month as a new edition of the magazine comes out so how do you keep the customers up to date. Maybe by setting up a download on the Web as is done for virus updates. More complexity and expense. Or maybe you just host the whole thing on line and make a charge for using it so you are setting up a business which the taxman will take an interest in.
It's not that I am trying to pour cold water on the suggestion %), I'm just making the point that a project like this can spiral out of control very easily indeed and end up as a crash and burn, just like a lot of other IT projects. I know Model Boats have looked at doing this themselves several times but decided that it's just too expensive.
The MMI offering appears to be just a simple search facility operating on article headings and a brief description of the article. Certainly a lot better than nothing but of only limited application to the sort of research that I think Bryan was originally driving at. For example I put in the word lathe and nothing comes up at all! Put in "fitting" and you get nothing, use "fittings" and you get some hits but if you wanted to look up windlass, capstan or davit forget it, the MMI system isn't designed to do that. The search appears to be entirely dependent upon how the article was described which can be very hit and miss.
Colin
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The MMI offering appears to be just a simple search facility operating on article headings and a brief description of the article. Certainly a lot better than nothing but of only limited application to the sort of research that I think Bryan was originally driving at.
Now this was about the limit what I thought practical. And this can be done easily on MSExcel.
Actually, in a practical sense, Excel 6 onwards is just as powerful and flexible as early databases were.
As you say Colin, you have to limit the scope. Otherwise it quickly can get bigger than Ben Hur.
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Very true TT and it's handy for the "I'm sure I saw an article on that last year" sort of query but it wouldn't meet the sort of data retrieval that Bryan has in mind going back to the year dot. There is in fact a huge amount of valuable information in those very old Model Boats/Model Maker issues but simply cataloging it would be a huge task, never mind setting up the database structure.
Colin
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Perhaps another reason why I wish MMI and MB would put everything on disc.
At least then you can do a word search. Unless it is merely a scanned image. And not scanned text.
Hey sent it to China, get students to do it for a summer job, they can re-type it all in. {-)
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One other factor as well concerns "input" consistency.
Years of working with databases I have seen an immense range of inputs that affect search routines - people adding fullstops, using tab keys rather than enter keys to switch between fields, entering in capitals or only lowercase and of course spelling of words.
Not an easy task for multiple involvement - perhaps better to keep on at the magazine publishers.
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Quite right Bluewotsit - on the Model Boats website MyHobbyStore is spelt at least three different ways... :}
Colin
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They are taking all the apostrophes out of road signs cause it upsets the satnavs or something .I can see the problems with regards to the above replies
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Some of the mags carried a back numbers index - it should be possible to scan these in at high definition and use some OCR software to convert to text that could be used in WP docs. Any extra information could be put in by hand.
MS Office (expensive but comprehensive), MS Works (often bundled, but limited), Open Office (comprehensive, and FREE for those who bother to download it or buy a mag like PC Advisor with a disk) all have applications that will do the job.
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Following on from Bluewotsit's comment, you would need to have data validation routines to control the input. For example keywords would be matched agaist a standard list and an error flagged up if not found, it would also be possible to select the keyword rather then type it in. Things like upper and lower case can be dealt with within the software. But all this means that you are designing an application rather than just a simple database. The old adage in IT "garbage in, garbage out" certainly applies.
So it would seem that you could either have something simple like MMI which is only of quite limited use or something more comprehensive which would take a lot of work to set up but would be a proper research tool. You pays your money and you takes your choice as usual.
I am rather reminded of when we set the Trader Directory up on Mayhem, a simple concept but almost as many ideas on how to go about it and what it should contain as there were members at the time - OK I exaggerate but the point is valid.
Colin
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Yeah well while you guys have been hosing everything down, I've done this: :P
The ultimate Model Boat Articles database!
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=p-pFMmND7Cl7ZHGb_KzKEMg&hl=en (http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=p-pFMmND7Cl7ZHGb_KzKEMg&hl=en)
Results can be seen here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-pFMmND7Cl7ZHGb_KzKEMg (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-pFMmND7Cl7ZHGb_KzKEMg)
Yes I know it full of holes but point out the obvious errors and anything I've missed and we can take this forwards. :-))
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Nice one Martin :-)) :-))
Added the Footy feature from Richard Webb but the input fields don't seem to match up with the results view as I read the hints next to the fields and didn't check with the results view.
Should be easy to use with a bit of practice
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Martin, you are brilliant! Pete M
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Different people will enter information in different ways so when you search you will only get a proportion of what is actually there and quite possibly miss the bits you were actually looking for. You will only get a patchwork of articles and is there anything to stop the same one being entered more than once? No data validation for consistent spelling. Sorry Martin, but this is emphatically not the way I was taught to put a database together - but good luck anyway! {:-{
Colin
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It's getting the data that the hard work.
Once we got the data starts coming in, we can sort it all out as we go along.... :-))
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Once we got the data we can sort it all out as we go along....
Oh Martin! Famous, Famous last words...... {-)
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I'm Famous for my Famous last words! :D
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The database design and the data definition are the important bits.
Otherwise you cannot mine the data effectively after it has been captured.
Quick and dirty solutions are not scaleable.
And this thing will grow and so I think scalability is a major issue.
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I'm Famous for my Famous last words! :D
Was that
'Kiss me Hardy' :kiss: or
'Et tu Brute' {-)
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No it was "They told me it would be OK...."
or maybe "Yes sir! Your money is perfectly safe with us." {-)
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No, it was " Ctrl+F5 will solve all your problems >:-o
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The database design and the data definition are the important bits.
Otherwise you cannot mine the data effectively after it has been captured.
Quick and dirty solutions are not scaleable.
And this thing will grow and so I think scalability is a major issue.
Agreed. Anybody want to step up?
All I think most people want, well me for one is a searchable database where I can type in eg. sandpiper or planking and
I get some results back. At the moment we have nothing and starting with a spreadsheet is easily expandable and
convertible to a database with a minimum of effort. I can add, remove or change any field as quick as you like but
- lets get the data in first!! <*<
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Oh my, goodness gracious! What have I started now?
I certainly didn't expect this level of response....but it seems to have triggered a need (desire?) for some sort of access to info that isn't readily available to all.
May I give you a little background to all this? For my sins I have been looking after the records etc. of Tynemouth Model Boat Club for a number of years now. Including "Model Boats", "Marine Modelling" and sundry others. About 7 ft of shelf space. Now I need the space back.The "take-up" of requests from club members has been abysmal, so I decided to go down the "putting it all on disc" route. I now have 12 CDs (1967-2000), and the annotated contents pages on another disc. All free to club members. But perusing all this still requires some reading....and I'm sure you all agree that the "average" club member of anything wants things presented on a plate. Hence the request for help with a database. I also hold a shed load of plans (not all TMBC property) that I would like to be able to disseminate.
I have a suggestion. The committe of TMBC seem to have gone into the shaking of the head, tooth sucking mode, wondering what to do with this pile of stuff. It isn't really saleable as it is by no means 100% complete. If Martin or anyone who will be visiting the NE Model Boat show who is passing(ish) Martins castle is willing then the mags can be passed over to be done properly....rather than finish up in a skip. I will try to convince our committee that this would be "a good thing".Ideas?
But thank you all for the staggering response to what I thought was a simple question.
For Dicky and Stavros.....yes, I have included the kit revues and builds. But lets not go there again! Bryan.
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Well, there's your data Martin.... {-)
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Oh my, goodness gracious! What have I started now?
I certainly didn't expect this level of response....but it seems to have triggered a need (desire?) for some sort of access to info that isn't readily available to all.
May I give you a little background to all this? For my sins I have been looking after the records etc. of Tynemouth Model Boat Club for a number of years now. Including "Model Boats", "Marine Modelling" and sundry others. About 7 ft of shelf space. Now I need the space back.The "take-up" of requests from club members has been abysmal, so I decided to go down the "putting it all on disc" route. I now have 12 CDs (1967-2000), and the annotated contents pages on another disc. All free to club members. But perusing all this still requires some reading....and I'm sure you all agree that the "average" club member of anything wants things presented on a plate. Hence the request for help with a database. I also hold a shed load of plans (not all TMBC property) that I would like to be able to disseminate.
I have a suggestion. The committe of TMBC seem to have gone into the shaking of the head, tooth sucking mode, wondering what to do with this pile of stuff. It isn't really saleable as it is by no means 100% complete. If Martin or anyone who will be visiting the NE Model Boat show who is passing(ish) Martins castle is willing then the mags can be passed over to be done properly....rather than finish up in a skip. I will try to convince our committee that this would be "a good thing".Ideas?
But thank you all for the staggering response to what I thought was a simple question.
For Dicky and Stavros.....yes, I have included the kit revues and builds. But lets not go there again! Bryan.
[/quote
I suppose the word "revue" conjures up visions of lap dancing.....perhaps my mind wandered....I shal review the situation.
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I shal review the situation.
Mind wandering again Bryan :}
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Martin
Who is going to control the database and check for consistency of entries, perhaps control is the wrong word. Whe is going to be the person to contact if there is a problem with the database? Also who is going to be the person who has the access to correct any problems with the database?
Brian
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for some threads everyone knows a little bit :}
Avoid database programs like the plague.
I think Martin's first post was good, except each field should be separated by a comma and ensure no commas elsewhere. This can produce a CSV (comma separated values) file that excel and many other programs will input. (do they have CR/LF at the end of a section?)
Martin's google stuff offers one way of capturing data, others may prefer Notepad, others Access. Doesn't matter provided they can all output a CSV.
The CSVs can be merged.
Spelling errors don't matter becasue spell checkers can clear it up ( a feature not often available in a fancy database).
If the data is simple and standard it can then be post processed and presented in many different ways.
Data may not be perfect and articles missed but it's not a safety critical system - so don't fuss.
Programmers can offer different programs for searching over time to improve capturing similar words and spelling or import it into the database of their choice.
Dates are probably the thing that will end up with most different formats, but they can be processed into a standard.
Data entry - snow bound, ill, disabled, bored, retired, lots of us have an hour to fill. So what if there are dupications if it tells you twice it won't hurt and eventually the data can be cleaned.
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yes where to store.
Can a non-picture file be attached to a post? If too big it could be divided into decades perhaps. There could be a thread per decade. After a while once a newer file was 'verified' by useres the oldest version could be expunged to keep the size under control. Somone posting a new version would just say what they had changed in the post - self documenting.
Say 10 years = 120 issues = 2400 items(at 20 items per issue) = 240k at 100 characters per item. Not too big. Mostly user administered.
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eventually the data can be cleaned
And I've spent many unhappy hours in the past just doing that to the extent that I'm convinced it's better to put in the upfront effort to get it right in the first place.
Colin
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eventually the data can be cleaned
And I've spent many unhappy hours in the past just doing that to the extent that I'm convinced it's better to put in the upfront effort to get it right in the first place.
Colin
Whats that mean... in English.
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If a job is worth doing it's worth doing properly Bryan.
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eventually the data can be cleaned
And I've spent many unhappy hours in the past just doing that to the extent that I'm convinced it's better to put in the upfront effort to get it right in the first place.
Colin
Whats that mean... in English.
When the data is entered someone might keep putting in "Brian Yung" which will mean simple searches fail for Bryan. For a professional application like Criminal Records this would be unacceptable. Either you say nobody can enter data enless they are a member of the 'faultless data entry union' or you have someone clean up the errors afterwards. For our application the first would yield zero volunteers so forget it.
It's not nice to ignore Bryan's articles but not the end of the world. Sometime when it is realised someone can do a simple search and replace. The great thing is that if the data is in a simple form anyone can load it into Notepad and do that then post the corrected version with a note to say what they did. It won't even need a script programmer.
The only big one we should get right in the first place is the date since 6/2/09 and 2/6/09 are both valid but one is wrong and it is only possible to correct by looking at the article in question. I suggest we insist on 3 letter months since 6/Feb/09 and Feb/6/09 are unambiguous and anyway Martin's entry form can force it to be in this form. If some entries don't use the form and end up the wrong way round they will need correcting to make it easier for searches. But again there must be a dozen programmers on the forum who can do that.
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Yes, but in the real world people type in Brain Yung, Byryan Yurng and several other permutations besides, And they do it for all the other entries too so you end up with a huge number of inconsistent entries which take forever to rationalise using search and replace (if you can guess some of the more arcane versions anyway). I have been in this situation with a database of outstanding building maintenance at hundreds of properties involving thousands of entries typed in by individual surveyors. These had to be sorted into various categories to meet Government statistical requirements identifying the outstanding maintenance backlog between local authorities. We had to do it to get the Government grants but it was a dreadful job and the number of ways the surveyors spelt or described the same things was simply incredible. With a bit of data entry validation programmed into the input routines most of this could have been avoided. I am consequently a great believer in preventing a mess from developing in the first place rather than in clearing it up afterwards but I appear to be in the minority here! Been there, done that, not getting caught again!
Colin
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Bryan, what "fields" (columns?) does you data consist of?
After years of nagging at people I can't believe I'm actually saying this but in this case I'm actually in favour of using
a spreadsheet data collection over a database. Data, sorting, duplicates, spell checking, errors, etc can be quickly
spotted and corrected in a spreadsheet and to some extent, done automatically.
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Looking at Bryan's post Martin I think he has simply scanned in the articles. but I could be wrong. :o
Colin
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a great believer in preventing a mess from developing in the first place
Hmmm, good idea Colin, I'm not one known for that kind of rational thinking! %)
How about we get some records together, say 50 or 100, we can then assess what we have and see if it's worth pursuing!
Go on Colin, enter one article.... even if it's just to prove me wrong! O0
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Looking at Bryan's post Martin I think he has simply scanned in the articles. but I could be wrong. :o
Colin
I think the same.
So a simple catalogue of articles and key search terms.
The output of a search could be just an issue no, article title and page no.
If they are scanned on CD that is about the level of detail that is most suitable.
Getting the search terms correct will help.
And boolean search would be helful, to find most relevant.
For example if we searcehd for anything on 'pins' we could end up with 1000 articles, not good.
Also if somebody wants to search 'soldering brass', perhaps only those articles that deal specifically with the techniques (perhpas even the subject of the article) should be tagged.
There are some more major condsiderations, that I can see.
1/ People need to re-read every article. If they are only looking for the headline content, and not reading everyword, this work is made easier.
2/ Task 1 will be made easier with a predefined set of tags. This list can get bigger than Ben Hur, but in reality 100 tags could do it. This list needs to be decided on before work starts fully.
3/ Data capture bodies need some training. This can be done via forum chat, just to make sure we are all on the same page (so to speak). And some kind of Test Text, to see if we have a shared understanding of how tags are used, and what tags should be assigned where.
4/ The biggy.
Copyright. If the scanned articles become part of the data set. And if this is going to be of open access.
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2/ ... predefined set of tags. This list can get bigger than Ben Hur, but in reality 100 tags could do it. This list needs to be decided on before work starts fully.
4/ The biggy.
Copyright. If the scanned articles become part of the data set. And if this is going to be of open access.
2. Yes. My list was just a test/rush job, can we suggest some better tags?
4. As we are just creating a list, an index, does copyright come into it?
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4/ The biggy.
Copyright. If the scanned articles become part of the data set. And if this is going to be of open access.
4. As we are just creating a list, an index, does copyright come into it?
If all we are doing is a list that is OK.
But if we are using scanned articles, on CD or other media, there would be an issue.
The scope of the work needs to be settled before anything starts.
A question for Bryan
What is your intention and what outputs do you envisage?
or to put it another way what do you want to achieve?
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Topic renamed.
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Right I don't know much about computers nor do I wish to but I do like them to work for me. A magazine article database would be a great help for many of us if not all of us boaters.
Hopefully the thread's replies won't stop that from happening as everybody has their own ideas and experiences in this field. Which could lead to contradiction and falling out with each other.
As a suggestion, can I propose an idea of the best people ( team 1) chosen to build this database and aiders (team 2 ) to cross reference and check everything is going to plan.
If the forum (majority) wants this database then I think it should be construct behind closed doors till it is up and running .On occasions a release of what has been done to see if the feedback is acceptable.
Just an idea cos I don't want 2 loose this opportunity.
Seaspray
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The copyright notice in the front of MB says
The publishers written consent must be obtained before any part of this publcation may be reproduced in any form whatsoever including photocopies and information retieval systems.
So I would think that would include article titles etc.
Maybe the best way to procceed would be to to contact the editor and do it in co-operation with the mag.
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My little brain is now getting a bit overloaded.
So. For a start all the mags "collected were due to be ditched or sent to land-fill or something after the owners had finished with them.
The copyright issue has bothered me slightly, but as they are all "rescue" items and there has never been any intention whatsoever to sell anything, more to give people access to otherwise unavailable information (within TMBC). I suppose that an open (and internationally available) database would have to be sanctioned by whoever owns (or has owned) the publishing rights. Others will know more about that than me.
Anyway, my first thought was to put everything on DVD, but the thought of having to meander through 7gb of material sounded even more time consuming than searching the actual magazines. So I went for CDs, and with the earlier issues when there was little or no colour I was happily managing 3 years issues per CD.
Also I only scanned items that were either only of interest to me or people I know with similar interests, so the mags still have reams of stuff in them that would appeal to the wider readership of this forum.
Being pretty ignorant (about computers) I did just scan each page that took my fancy and saved in JPG format just adding the year/month /page as a field. ie 081-feb-157. The next stage was to transfer all the contents pages and underline the items I have saved. This will appear on a seperate "contents" disc. Still takes a bit of browsing but a darn sight quicker than doing it "the old way".
My long term wish is about the same as Tigers. A relatively straightforward, upgradeable "thing" that wouls respond to a request for "planking", "ventilators", "HMS Warrior" and so on.
Like some on this forum I have many issues of "Model Shipwright", They have published at least 2 indexes in booklet form which I have found invaluable, so really and ideally an electronic version of that would be pretty good. Sorry to take up your time again.
Brian Yung.
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Dear Brain Yong,
Thanks for explaining that, it clarifies things a lot. It also leaves me wondering whether OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software could be successfuly applied to the scans to turn them into text. If so then we really would be motoring as a search facility could pick up the individual words. There may also be a possibility of negotiating something with the magazine owners to mutual benefit. You never know!
Niloc
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The articles text is obviously copywrite but the originals, not copies, can sold like any book, but not turned into another format, like CD, for sale.
They have included the index probably when the accountant saw CDs of indexes being sold eg for Model Engineer, so copies or cd scans of the index page would also be copywrite.
However the information the idex page contains is in the public domain becasue they have been published. I am not a legal expert but I think you can freely take such information and retype it into a new publication in your own words with a credit to the source. That is just the same as a citation or reference being put in an article or technical journal.
Have you tried googling "model engineer index" or "Railway modeller index" then "model Boats index". Looks like the boaters are behind the times.
Typical record from the ME index:
Volume","Issue","Page","Category","Title","Part","Author","Notes"
"121,,,,"All rights unless specifically released reserved Bill Phillips and Chris Orchard 1998-2009",,,
121,3031,8,"Workshop","Changing the Cellar into a workshop",,"Denis Horler","Vibration, secure fixing, single line distribution diagram, curves showing cutting speeds"
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There may alsoould be some be a possibility of negotiating something with the magazine owners to mutual benefit. You never know!
Niloc
That's what I was thinking, do you know anyone who has the editors ear?
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Dear Brain Yong,
Thanks for explaining that, it clarifies things a lot. It also leaves me wondering whether OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software could be successfuly applied to the scans to turn them into text. If so then we really would be motoring as a search facility could pick up the individual words. There may also be a possibility of negotiating something with the magazine owners to mutual benefit. You never know!
Niloc
Oops. Lost me again, Colin. Sorry. Young Brain.
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Guys If It's Suitable I'll Run An Excel Sheet And For Ease Of Use, Those With Magazines Can Post There Articles From The Mags They Have And Through Time I Can Add Them As Long As I'm Not Bugged (I Do have A Social Life :P ) And When I Get It Done I Can Email I To Those Who Wish It Or The Details That Someone Is Looking For
Best Point Being ONE Person Updates It And Distributes It And Keeps It Consistent
Rules Are Though (If Possible)
FULL Magazine Name (With Scanned Cover)
FULL Article Name And Persons Name Doing The Article (With Scanned Page(s)
Page Number
Month Issued
Issue No
And Your Name For Kudos :P
Or If You Have Time Do Your Full Magazine {-)
If Theres A Double Article Kudos To The Person Who Follows Full Rules
Oh Aye PM The DetailsAswell Guys
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That's what I was thinking, do you know anyone who has the editors ear?
Yes, me maybe, but the changes currently going on in the Model Boats company mean that it won't be possible to raise the matter for a week or two at the earliest.
Colin
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Colin Tell them its more income for the magazine , they'll jump at it. :-))
Does a copyright have a time limit on it like a patent ?
Is it the author that has the copright or the magazine ?
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Normally the publication will have the copyright. If they have agreed to the author owning the copyright (it is negotiable) the individual article will have to carry a copyright dedication.
Roger in France
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http://www.ipo.gov.uk/
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Hi Bryan
OCR is a magical application. When you scan a text document in, you get a picture of the document. When you pass this picture through the OCR program, it spots anything it can recognise as a letter, and uses this to build a typed document. A well mannered one let you check it out both automatically and manually for any questionable marks such as bits of dead fly that were on the original or on the scanner glass that alter the recognition. For magazine articles, it's best to scan a column at a time.
The result is that the information is now in (usually) a Word document that you can do anything to that you could do with one that you typed in, but without the copying in in the first place. Much liked by students plagiarising dissertations, but it does have legitimate uses, as well.
OCR is often bundled with a scanner, I have been using a freebie Abbey4 that was on a magazine cover several years ago, but there are others. They usually need better than 400 DPI resolution from the scanner.
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Just to add to what has been said re-indexing Model Boats articles. There already exists an index , not I hasten to add as comprehensive as that proposed on this board. It's used commercially , it's free and provides general content for the Model Maker magazines between 1959-1966 and Model Boats between 1966-2004. I find it very useful if not a little long winded as there is no provision for typing in and going to search. But this is a minor deficiency. http://www.payhost.net/modelling/acatalog/Model_Maker.html . Hope this provides some food for thought.
Bowwave.
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To add further to this discussion It may be unwise for Mayhem to consider copying the contents of any article from any magazine . There is the problem of production copyright and that relating to the originator of the article ie photos or text or both . I see no problem whatsoever with any form of detailed indexing but Martin may run into some problems if Mayhem reproduced any of the contents from a magazine with out acquiring the necessary permission no matter how well meaning or altruistic the motives.
Bowwave
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I strongly recommend that everyone takes a look at the link provided by Bowwave. Looks like somebody has already done the job in a manner that would satisfy a lot of people.
Colin
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Quite right Bowave. I have no intention of reproducing any part of any magazine, just an index of articles that anyone
can use to look thinks up and then find the magazine in their own possession, borrow from a friend, ask at the club,
ask on here or purchase from the publishers or other sources.
As I keep reiterating, this is an exercise in collecting the data. If the Mayhemers all contribute a just a couple every week,
it would soon grow into a pretty comprehensive list!
We a can all think or a thousand reason why this can't, shouldn't, won't be done but in reality, why would anyone want to?
The list won't be for commercial gain and if you have a requested magazine you can offer it for loan or sale.
http://www.modelboats.co.uk/
http://www.traplet.com/
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14084.msg134874#msg134874
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14101.msg135030#msg135030
http://www.payhost.net/modelling/acatalog/Model__Boats.html
www.ebay.co.uk/
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Found this today: http://www.marinemodelmagazine.com/search/search.aspx?cid=3852
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I see Model Boats has a Digital Archive system, subscribers only. There isn't much on this site now that isn't subscriber only.
Never on it now.
Seaspray.
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I see Model Boats has a Digital Archive system, subscribers only. There isn't much on this site now that isn't subscriber only.
Come on Seaspray! That's an exaggeration. I run the site and we have added subscriber only material as requested by the publishers and I mean added, not substituted! The previous free content is still there and continues to be updated - I know because I do it!
The digital archive is indeed very useful for finding anything anything going back to January 2007. But you can't expect MyHobbyStore to just give all their stuff away - they do have a company to run with shareholders and staff to pay who have mortgages etc.! The digital archive has been added to encourage people to take out subscriptions, these help pay for the magazine - no paying readers - no magazine. People who just buy it occasionally or browse the juicy bits in W H Smith are not enough I'm afraid.
Colin
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Sorry Colin I think its dying a slow death and has been for sometime now.
Shame I use to read it instead of doing me homework.
Seaspray
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Topic renamed....
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You are perfectly entitled to your opinion Seaspray but making a head to head comparison with Mayhem would be missing the point.
However, if you have any ideas on how we could improve the Model Boats site we'd certainly be happy to consider them.
Colin
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No comparison with Mayhem was implied. But I believe Mayhem took the model boaters forum to the great height it is today. (Fact)
Something I found with MB lacking at that time and still to date.
Also the times my subscription ended at MB and was never chase it up for renewal. Be surprised how a phonecall or an email will bring in renewals.
Seaspray
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Quite right Seaspray, Mayhem is an independent forum and the Membership value that as it allows much more freedom than would be the case on a commercial site - the Humour section is a case in point! The Model Boats website makes no bones about being there to support the magazine and their Forum is integrated with that so it can never become another Mayhem and nor should it. The underlying motives of the two sites are quite distinct.
However, you have not answered my question as to how the Model Boats site might be improved. If you want to criticise it then fair enough but some suggestions for improvement would be welcomed!
Not chasing you up to renew your subscription may have been an administrative oversight. I don't know. But my personal view is that the magazine does give pretty good value for money these days and Paul Freshney has made a very good point of improving the variety of content on offer. Model boating is very much a niche interest these days and I think we should be supporting the magazines which underpin the hobby rather than running them down. You'd miss them if they were gone, believe me!
Colin
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There has been a lot of not chasing up renewals to my knowledge and enquiries over some time, with a lot of subscribers.
The forums are identical in that they support model boating and the many offshots to that hobby. I am just waiting to have to subscribe to MB to get on the MB forum. Also I think Hobbystore is a bit rocky at the moment not having the turnover expected. Believing like so many other institutions they have sat back traded on their name alone.
I don't intend to be so presumptuous to offering ideas to MB as you requested, its the way things have become now. The hobby is in a minority base, and it is hard to cater to that market to get enough sales to made a big profit margin(S). Mind you MB is world wide trading has been for donkeys the bigger your market the more competition there is. The harder it becomes to trade. You can become too big and loose the pulse of your business.
I might live to see MB cease publication and possibly other model boat mags as well but MB and the others will survive through subscription on line. They will be available through internet cafes, libraries and at home. You may also have them available on our journeys by land air and of course sea
Trust me its the future, heck its out there waiting.
Seaspray.
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Seaspray,
Some valid points there. I will pass on your comments re chasing up subscriptions.
All publications and magazines have been hit by loss of advertising revenue which has switched to the Internet. Many with online content, including the national daily papers, are looking at ways to charge for access to online material. The problems lie in being able to set up some sort of system of micropayments so you only pay for the articles you read (many people would not want to take out a full subscription for a newspaper) and the fact that the BBC has it's own news content which is of course completely free. They regard this as unfair competition.
I can't speak for the other MyHobbyStore titles but I do know that Model Boats is actually doing quite well at the moment and easily meeting its targets, I think this is largely down to Paul Freshney increasing the variety of material in each issue which makes it more likely that people will find things that interest them. Of course in circulation terms Model Boats is just a minnow compared with the bigger magazines on the bookshelves but the readership has remained pretty stable over the years and will probably continue that way until we all start dying off!
I think there will be online subscription at some point, the Flexipage feature shows one way forward, but in the meantime most people do prefer hard copy if they can get it. Reading stuff onscreen is less convenient and even the new Ebooks have some way to go if the one I tried out in Waterstones recently is typical.
Incidentally, you should be able to post on the MB Forum by simply registering on the site, you don't have to be a subscriber.
Colin
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I think waiting for the micropayment system is a bit like an excuse for inaction. Waiting for new technologies is never a good idea. Many of them fail in thier own business cases, G3 subscription services using GPRS was a classic. That was about microbiling for packets of data, instead of paying by page view. Guess what, the packets were so small that they were of no commercial value to the telecom network, and they would have trouble marking up data packets by 10 000% due to fair trade issues.
Have the publishers looked at those that do provide payed for services.
My wife gets The Economist. Online content, podcasts, and video downloads. Every week.
I think that in 50 years time there will be no hard copy left. I think that in 20 years time there will be a niche market for hard copy. Some will move forward, others will be left behind. Some like The Independant have already gone.
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I have n will contribute to the forum @ MB. I've got pics of the Meteor there.
Paul has done well and like yourself has help me in the past, and it was appreciated.
You never see hobby magazines advertise on the media ie radio and television. Expensive yes but a quick advert encompassing all of the hobby magazines in the various hobby fields could generate subscriptions.
The media is struggling for advertisers, now would have been a good time I would have made an enquiry, at least.
Seaspray
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Colin...and others.
Of course model boating is a minority hobby. So is every other hobby you could name. It's the nature of hobbies to be minority interests. Here I'm talking about a hobby that requires a lot of work by the hobbyist. I appreciate that "angling", "shooting" and so on may (just) be called a "hobby", but quite often they are referred to as "sporting activities". Surely the main productive hobbies must have Railways, Aircraft and Boats/Ships near the top of the list. Wood Turning, making Dolls Houses,Wargaming.....the list is endless: and ALL are "minority" interests. People are "odd". Personally I think that there are so many "minority" interests out there that they are actually the majority. In the old days of the "Earls Court" exhibition the hall was full of wonderful and diverse modelling expertise. Now look at Harrogate. Everything from Steam Locos to little hand carts. Boat/Ship modelling is a part of all that, and each persuasion can and does pick up and learn from another. So the gist of my argument is that one form of modelling should never be held up in isolation from any other form. It's all part of the world of modelling. BY.
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Having just today received my invitation to renew my subscription to "MB" I consider myself qualified to join this topic!!!!!
To suggest that books/magazines will be replaced entirely by the Internet has been threatened for years. In fact the number of books in print grows every year and is higher now than ever before. We may disagree about how good or bad some of them are but at least we should remember that owning a hard copy of something also appeals to the acquisitive nature of many of us. I look upon a good book I enjoyed as an old friend and while I may happily lend it to those I think will appreciate it, it is mine and I want it back!
The physical relaxation of sitting back and reading in an inclined or horizontal position is a little difficult with a screen. It is also much easier to transport a book to read anywhere. It is also easier to put down and pick up a book.
Many hobby magazines rely quite significantly on voluntary submissions by enthusiasts. Hence in "MB" there is far too much about high speed and high powered boats for my taste but I suspect that is because the OMRA enthusiasts have got their act together. I also dislike the amount of space allowed to the guy who visits naval ships. But, good luck to them and I will continue to hope some other branch of the hobby will contribute so as to take some of the space.
I think many individuals and clubs are far too reticent about submitting material. They need to remember that Paul Fresney is not a judge he is an editor who, I am confident, will undertake a certain amount of rewriting if he thinks the basic material submitted is worthy of readers interest. If you look at what is published currently, you can see evidence of Paul's polishing cloth even when he does allow the natural tone of the contributor to show through!!!
I think the idea of TV advertising is a complete non starter. The cost is vast and the medium is susceptible only to brief simple messages. The proportion of those interested and those likely to be interested as a part of the viewing population is minuscule.
As "tigertger" says the publishing industry is tentatively exploring how it can charge. As an example, I have to pay for "The Times" crossword but some papers are free. I pay because "The Times" crossword setters provide me the kind of challenge I enjoy.
My attitude to model boating magazines is very ambivalent. Sometimes I enjoy them other times they bore me. But "seaspray" is certainly right about the need for effective subscription reminders, I only take "MB" because the "other lot" never bothered to remind me my sub. was due!
Roger in France.
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Roger,
Must say, the others also failed to advise when my subscription was due renewal. Like yourself I also didn't bother.
I subscribe to MB which is good 'suppertime reading' and the excellent bi monthly 'Ships in Scale' from the USA. This publication is growing outside the US and now has a European editor, additional to the American. They appear to have taken into account those of us who now need reading glasses by making the text a more legible size.
http://www.seaways.com/
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See there is a nice tug kit on offer at MB and a free book with the kit. Very good looking model.
Seaspray
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Reading the comments above does give food for thought. Being a model internet junkie I gain a substantial amount from sites such these and marvel at the breadth of knowledge and enthusiasm, especially on Mayhem and I enjoy the spontaneity that sites such Mayhem offer . Right enough of the praise. Magazines catering for our branch of modeling have been around for two or three generations. In fact I still see and hear of various copies of Scale Model Ships , Model Maker , Model Boats, Marine Modeling or Radio Control Boat Modeler, being either brought along to the model clubs or re-cycled on various web sites . These hard copies will no doubt be doing the rounds for the next 50 or more years, long after I’m gone. Some have even been carefully bound into volumes and occasionally pop up on e-bay.
Many modeling sites operate some form of archive where modelers can refer back to posts or builds that interest them but it’s not always a simple operation to access these archives. . However any form of electronic storage either personal or collective is by design more transient than the old fashioned hard copy. If and I have seen this happen, a popular site, for what ever reason ceases to exist. Then what happens to all the archive material, members discourse, views, and options?. Where does it go? How many have lost information, pictures etc from any one of their electronic storage devices? How good is the CD , extra hard drive, digital camera, Jump drive you name it, for permanent storage? I picked up the other day a copy December issue 1955 of Scale Model Ships, it was out there and not that difficult to locate. But will some future model builder be able to source that super built project from a model site his father told him about? Or locate that e-.copy of Model Boats or Marine Modeler May be but don’t bank on it.
Bowwave
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I am sure they'll be many a hoarder out there with something of interest for everybody. This can be stored by many means, but the likes of scrap yards ( junk yards ) with old car parts are disappearing faster or is it that the cars scraped today are shorter lived than years gone by.
Little twist of the subject
Seaspray