Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: nhp651 on March 04, 2009, 01:44:53 pm
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A manchester Top of the education league school is dumping the British GCSE examinations for the harder IGCSE (international exam)
The british government has gone off on one because the school, which charges £9k a year for it's ed. will not be teaching Shakespear and other classics in the curicullum, and has said that the school will therefore come BOTTOM of the exam league tables in future years because the IGCSE's are not counted in the league tables.
a) when did you last use that knowledge of Shaky that you learned in school, and
b) is the government not throwing it's dummy out' the pram because it can't get it's own way in totally ******* up the education of people in this country.
They bang on about being an integral part of Europe and when a school gears it's kids up to learning more about european matters, ol' Gordon the moron and his headless crew bleet about it. <*< <*< <*<
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a) when did you last use that knowledge of Shaky that you learned in school, and
b) is the government not throwing it's dummy out' the pram because it can't get it's own way in totally ******* up the education of people in this country.
A/ Yesterday.. "Good morrow my lord" Richard III, Act 3, Scene 2
B/ Yes, but with good reason. British schools should teach British Language (English), British history (First).. and some European history (Second).. and some world history (Third).
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Nah, Toesupwa,
I don't agree, (well I do in a way)
Yes, we should be proud of our history, ( as I am) and should learn about our history and geography.
BUT, and this is a BIG but................I don't find any use for such things as Shakespeare ( we don't use that language any more), algebra,( I have never used that maths either before or since) or a multitude of parts of the curriculum that are totally useless.
I mean, when was the last time I used greek mythology or latin to further my aims in life.
Much more use to the kids of today would be those subjects which give them a good start in life in a cosmopolitan world in which we on this side of the pond live(no detriment intended, but at times I feel that the US and a large percentage of it's inhabitants generally have little in common with the europe that is developing today, with more and more eastern block countries joining the EU)
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make in my original post.
The point was that this useless government that we now are all enduring over here throws its rattle out the pram with threatening notions to a school which is trying to better the lott of it's kids rather than embracing what the school feel is progress in a country that seams to be going down the pan, RAPIDLY!
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BUT, and this is a BIG but................I don't find any use for such things as Shakespeare ( we don't use that language any more), algebra,( I have never used that maths either before or since) or a multitude of parts of the curriculum that are totally useless.
That's a rather insular viewpoint Neil - just because you personally don't find it useful doesn't mean it is useless to somebody else. If you don't expose kids to some of these subjects when they are young you would be stunting an awful lot of potential careers. Can't say I much enjoyed my brief experience of Latin but it comes in handy in Europe when trying to decipher something as a lot of languages have their roots in it. Shakepeare is a lot more than just funny old language too, there are universal human themes running through his work which many people to respond to. It was only when I got involved in computer programming that I began to appreciate and use some of the maths that was drummed into me at school. My long standing interest in ancient history was sparked off in school, knowing what the origins of your civilisation are gives you a much deeper perspective in life such as learning that they had flushing toilets on Crete 3,500 years ago and you can still see them - clever lot they were in those days. Must have had better schools!
Too many people just live in the present and don't know what they are missing.
Colin
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Didn't mean it to come out like that, Colin
what i was trying to point out is, that although the present government is totally pro EU,(which is another argument and minefield altogether) one would expect a school that makes it their point to give children the best start in life by gearing up their exam's to a european level, the education ministers have ( as usual) taken an insular viewpoint and stand and said that first and foremost the school should be teaching as a matter of course, the OLD CLASSICS and those subjects that so many modern kids are just NOT interested in.
I have never said that these subjects should be stopped but kids should be given that choice in their options from year 9 onwards should they wish to do so.
I maintain that some of the stuff that I was subjected to as a kid, and also what I subjected kids to in my 22 years of teaching, because of set government guidelines and exam board curriculum was neither use nor ornament, but sadly I had no option but to teach it.
However I would like to hear whet some of our european members from germany, france norway and such think of the way in which we in Britain teach and still glorify our age of colonialism and our classics rather than teaching for the future.
Do they spend inordinate amounts of time teaching stuff, that even though widens the mind, does little for future job success through out the world.
Sorry, I might be very cynical, but I spent 22 years in the profession, and although teaching has come on tremendously in the years that I have been out of the frey, the sad fact is that the teachers are still to a certain extent still bogged down by the subject matter.
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...because of set government guidelines and exam board curriculum was neither use nor ornament, but sadly I had no option but to teach it.
Good point. The only classes which the kids at my secondary school shown any interest in were metalwork, woodwork and sport. Subjects such as English, math and geography, etc, were already covered at the primary school. One teacher in particular was aware of this and, in his own inimitable style, had a knack of making topics such as algebra and Shakespeare quite interesting. He didn't conform to the usual curriculum, was very popular with the kids, loathed by the other teachers, and needless to say, suddenly disappeared from the teaching scene.
Is your surname McHugh, by any chance?
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No but my subjects were woodwork, some metalwork and tech drawing, ans as you say, the kids enjoyed those subjects. %% %% :-))
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I think as PMK says, a good teacher can make almost any subject interesting, just as a good writer can make any book readable.
Colin
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dont knock shakespeare,,, i think he makes some great fishin gear {-) {-) {-) {-) %)
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You've lost me there, Colin.
I'm not talking about the pro's and con's of good and bad teachers.
I'm talking about a top school in this country saying that the gcse subjects which this government wants them to teach, are worthless and too easy in today's modern schooling, and that they want to gear themselves up to teaching kids towards a modern european education.
That, I commend,
And I have said nothing about teachers making dreery subjects interesting.
It's horses for courses really, but I wish I had had the oportunity to study far more interesting work than Hamlet or how Agammemnon took Troy(did he, I forget).
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Bang on with that last remark Colin. Personal experience of struggling with and rejecting maths as a lost cause was my lot until a good teacher sparked me off and made me understand it a lot better. Once the ball was rolling I went with it and couldn't get enough. The trouble was, it only started rolling in the last three years of my schooling but, nonetheless, it helped me enormously in later life as the fear of it had been banished.
This probably applies across the board and as everyone has different talents, it is a good plan to expose them to as much as one can, find out where their talent lay and then expand them.
As someone once said to me "Even the apparently dumbest in the class is good at something, we just have to find out what that something is"!
I didn't get exposed to Shakespeare or Latin however and personally can't work up any interest to find out more about it either. My talents lay in more practical areas and personally I feel i would have wasted good school time had anyone forced me to do it. I loathed religious studies with a passion, I consider that more of a waste of time than anything else and strongly believe this area of education should slung out of the window . These beliefs are personal to the individual, are divisive and should be left at home, not brought into the school where they waste time for some and actually appear to create problems for others.
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Can't disagree with any of that Sheerline. Common sense.
Colin
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Our school was predominantly C of E. Religious Education was a joke. Our R.E teacher was the most horrendous woman on the planet, and what really stank was the fact she was having an affair with the geography teacher. The Catholic kids were banished from morning assembly, ushered into a grotty room, treated like second-class citizens, while the rest of us had to endure thirty mins of total hypocrisy every morning. Sheerline is bang on the money when he says R.E is a total waste of time.
I'm voting that he and NHP should be put in charge of school education at the next election.
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During my time in Local Government I spent five years in an Area Education Office back in the late 70s, early 80;s. It was actually quite an efficient operation and one of my jobs was to act as Clerk to 25 or so School Governing Bodies. I remember having to explain quite emphatically to one of our Roman Catholic (Aided) Schools that, no, it was not acceptable to attempt to indoctrinate local non Catholic pupils into the Catholic faith. They were quite put out about this.
Colin
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but I wish I had had the oportunity to study far more interesting work than Hamlet or how Agammemnon took Troy(did he, I forget).
You might find it more interesting if you have stood where Agamemnon once did in Mycenae and ventured into the underground passageway which led to the citadel's secret water supply - constructed over 3,000 years ago. Spooky just isn't the word.
Colin
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now THAT I would have enjoyed, colin. :-))
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Well, here's a couple more pictures then:
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You're right -- spooky just isn't the word. Try dead fascinating.
This is where I feel left out, education passed me by, because who was Agememnon? Where is Mycenae? I have heard of Troy/Trojan horse, but that's as far as my 'knowledge' goes.
You mention 3,000 years ago. And secret water supply. What was that all about? And why?
Who carved those lions in the rock?
Can you elaborate pse?
Who took those photographs?
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Personal experience of struggling with and rejecting maths as a lost cause was my lot until a good teacher sparked me off and made me understand it a lot better. Once the ball was rolling I went with it and couldn't get enough.
Wish I had the sense to put it into words like that, because what you just described was exactly as it was for me and all. I used to be terrified of math. And that alone scared the hell out of me because even from infant days I had a hankering to get into wireless and electronics. I knew that some understanding of math was required but figgered I was waaaay above my station because the math problem would always be in the way.
Then one day, bunking off from school, I found myself in the library and came across a book which explained exactly what those formulas meant - written in a way that this bozo could actually understand. And that was it, I was hooked. It was very much like your fist girlfriend; once you had a taste of the goodies there was no going back.
My only regret is not remembering the name of the author of that book because I'd dearly love the shake the dude's hand.
I'm glad your posted your post. Most everything I have learnt has been through books - not via a proper education. I've always felt guilty about that, felt like I've cheated my way through life, learning little snippets from others - not having the sense to know what I should have knew anyway. Reading your post, and seeing that you too struggled with math, kinda makes me feel a tad less guilty.
I owe you a beer.
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PMK...Historical archiology has got to be one of the most fascinating studies next to forensic archiology that you could ever wish to study. :o :o
It's understandable and fathomable, and I only wish I had gone down one of those two roads after leaving college.
Real top notch stuff. O0 O0 O0
Thanks for posting the pics colin. :-)) :-))
neil.
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Neil, I took the pictures myself. We've had a couple of package holidays in nearby Tolon which is a nice place to stay and a lot of the famous sites are within an hour's drive or less.
The underground passage was built to gain access to a subterranean spring which gave the citadel a secure source of water if it was beseiged. It goes down quite a way with a dogleg bend in the middle and is unlit. If it were in the UK you'd never be allowed in!
There are some general views of Mycenae here: www.ontclassics.org/images/VIR_0004.PPT
If you want to learn a bit about the Trojan war without getting into archaeological technicalities this book by Barry Strauss is very readable and up to date. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trojan-War-Barry-S-Strauss/dp/0099474336
Colin
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Hi PMK, sounds like were all out of the same mould , formal schooling is ok for some but for others, at the very young age at which it is introduced, home life , emotional and class factors all come into play and can serve to restrict a youngsters ability to concentrate and absorb information. We all learn from others and snippets of this and that picked up from all over the place, it's normal and it's how we move through life so don't feel like you've faiiled or are some kind of cheat, you are just like the rest of us. Most of begin to 'take off educationally when we have actually left school... thats what happened with me. The inability to pass exams simply meant that a lot of opportunities for work were closed to us simply because we did not have the qualifications.
I have a friend who has a photographic memory, he astounds me with the immense level of knowledge he has retained on just about everything he has read, it's unbelievable. I can't even remember where i left my ruddy glasses 10 seconds ago!! There are also those out there who have an ability to pass exams, they just swat up, retain the info for long enough to answer all the questions and pass... don't you just hate them?
The ability to learn and retain info is a sign of intelligence but what you do with it is another thing. I have met a lot of people in this life who are well educated, well spoken and well heeled, but who are completely useless at just about everything. A lot of them have little common sense which is probably the best attribute one can have.
Contentment is the secret to a happy life, it doesn't matter how much money or possesion one holds just as long as you are content. As humans, we are all discontented to one degree or another but we do the best we can with what we've got and hopefully are not too discontented.
One day i'm gonna call you on that pint! :-))
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Thanks Colin.
It's the archiology that interests me. fascinating to be able to look and tough that which was made by other craftsmen/women hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, with basic rudimentary tools.
Just simply fascinating. :-))
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I think as PMK says, a good teacher can make almost any subject interesting, just as a good writer can make any book readable.
Colin
I'm not a particularly religious person but the secondary school I attended in the 1950s had a brilliant RE and History faculty. Our history and RE was brought alive and as pupils we learned to appreciate what history can teach future generations. The bible was seen not just as a religious text but as a historical document and we were taught to question and not just accept. Even today I have an interest in post Roman Britain and how our islands developed in that turbulent period. As for the works of Shakespeare I am a fan , as the appeal of his works has so much relevance to modern thought. Greed, treachery , war, love and hate are all part of human existence and Shakespeare could encapsulate these human experiences not just to entertain but to make the audience ponder and question the same conditions that are with us in abundance today.
Bowwave
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Well said, Bowwave.
I enjoyed Shakespeare at school, the 2 plays we studied in depth were The Merchant of Venice and Macbeth, and to this day, over 50 years on, I still know some passages from both works. I also read a number of his other plays for my own enjoyment while still in my teens, but I have to confess I have not read any for many years now. I agree with your statement that Shakespeare still has relevance in the present day.
I did Latin in my early years of schooling, and I believe it gave me a good grounding in the basics of the English language. I know it is a "dead" language, but its influence on English is quite strong. I also studied British and Ancient History as 2 separate subjects, and one of the great fascinations for me was visiting Britain, and seeing first hand many of the sites I learned about all those years ago.
Peter.
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A brief flirtation with The Merchant of Venice - "neither a borrower or a lender be, for loan oft betrays the friendship". That was thanks to a former grammer school teacher called out of retirement and stuck in a "factory fodder" secondary modern. Poor old guy, still feel sorry for him - even fifty years on.
Some people have questioned the worth or value of certain subjects. Each to their own idea, but is it not better to have a broad based education than a highly selective one. My education was basic but it was solid stuff. At least we could read, write and do our sums etc. Not high flying concepts but looking at the modern output of the system we would appear to be damn nigh genius level. We had (largely) good, caring staff who hammered the topics into us. The idea that they were "boring" or "not interesting" would have been met with absolute disdain. We left school at fifteen, no qualifications - simply because most sec.mods. were not into that idea.
After ten years of further education we had some idea of what we were supposed to be doing. This was achieved in my company by being "encouraged" to carry on with our education i.e. you had to gain a certain level or else. A great incentive is pure, absolute terror and fear. I have tried, in my mind, to picture standing in front of our training manager and uttering the modern sayings "it's boring" or "it's not interesting". I would think he would have quite easily blown a fuse as he enlightened us as to the plain facts of life (which most youngsters just do not understand), life isn't full of excitement, glamour or easy attainment. It is (or can be) a pure session of hard graft and pure grind. Ain't that tough then son? Life is a real b*****d at times!
The politicians, of whatever colour, have used education as a play toy for many years. Each attempt at improvement has produced a further downward slide. Now we have the situation in which everybody must have a certificate on completion. That the said piece of paper is worthless in the big world doesn't register except that the youngsters are fed with the belief that they are "qualified". Try convincing someone that perhaps, just maybe, they are not as good as they think. It leads to (if they can see the point of the discussion) a horrible dawning that they are weak and vulnerable in many areas.
I was fortunate in my time (most of my working life) to encounter some really bright lads who had been sold the tale of just how good they were. Most of them saw the object of my version and went on to achieve very good careers. But what do you do if, after eleven plus years of education, you are presented with people who can't write, express themselves verbally and have no concept of basic (stress the basic) maths or science. Apart from sitting and cursing the system that allows this fiasco to occur, it beomes a battle to force them into accepting that the world has it's standards and that they have to come up to them. No more school type sliding along, either do it or you fail - that terrible word that you are never supposed to use to youngsters - yes son, FAILURE.
Some on this thread have suggested that the youngsters should have the choice of what they do at school. In my mind this is akin to giving the keys of the asylum to the inmates. Many of them will run away if some subject is "hard" or "difficult" - witness the rapid rise in easy (useless?) qualifications. In a decent educational system the progress of a pupil should be graded through their school life, after all, we all have to start at the begining with the basic stuff.To plan such a system is hardly rocket science if you know what you are aiming for. Sadly the experts used by our politicians want to be more radical each time, resulting in utter confussion.
It seems that most of the youngsters simply want to be "famous" or "rich". The curse of the reality t.v. world? Easy attainment for little or no effort?
Just in case anyone thinks that this has gone over the top, one example for your thoughts. In one of my last classes, the lads had to fill in their NVQ record books. One little character tried his level best to avoid doing this. He was persuaded (sic) that he would do it there and then. It was only after checking it (prior to it being sent to an external assessor) that we found the hand writing was completely different. Answer? he had been taking his book home so that his sister could write it up for him!
Looking at his efforts the reason was very clear. Nearly twelve years of state education to produce a complete,utterly useless result. But, he protested, "I've got eight GCSE's". True, he had (when we checked later). All unclassified grades - and he was convinced he was good. He is probably of the same opinion even now.
We've a lot to be proud of in our sytem. As Tony B.Liar said (many times) Education, Education, Education.
Can someone please explain how a politician can talk with his tongue so firmly in his cheek and his head firmly placed so that it never sees the sun?
Rant over, off soapbox now and allowing blood pressure to settle.
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Sweeper, at the age of 77 I have a some experience of life. May I just say that you have very succinctly described the problems with today`s education and its effect on some, but not all, of today`s youth. I would quote my grandson as an exception. Now 20 years of age, he was a complete duffer at school, not through any fault of his teachers. He was lucky enough to get an apprenticeship as a plumber, pulled his finger out, went to evening classes, and is now fully qualified. Pete
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Sweeper, ,what Blair actually said ( i believe) was "ejucashun, ejucashun, ejucashun" %% %% %%
For which expert language tutors lambasted him for! {-) {-) {-)
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Peterm,
I hope that I would never, ever, tar all the youngsters with the same brush. I have had dealings (as a professional) with too many great kids and as a result I have more than a touch of admiration for their abilities. Some may be slow to start, fair comment, but it is their willingness to overcome whatever problems are thrown at them that lifts them in my eyes.
Further education in that magnificent setup that once existed (technical colleges) was the making of me, aided by the company policy of education. Yes, a large element of the fear of failure and it's consequences drove me (and countless others) to achieve our goals.
I still have dealings with a very large comprehensive school - not in a teaching role - and the frightening fact that I have noticed is that if the youngsters are able and do well they are looked after very well. If however they are not so good, they appear to be pushed aside. They go through the motions of education but gain (in my opinion) very little from it. I once had two apprentices in a class that had been through this school and, knowing their maths teacher very well, I thought they would be reasonable at the subject. Six months later after more than a little sweating and cursing, they could at least handle electrical calculations - I was supposed to be teaching electrical principles, not maths! One of them said, when the penny dropped "why the hell were we not taught to do it like this at school". Fair comment. How could I even start to justify the system?
Come the revolution, perhaps sanity will prevail and the kids will get back to a decent system that they will benifit from.
Please note, I'm not holding my breath until it happens - I'll likely be long gone to the great technical college in the sky by then {:-{
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On the subject of IGCSEs.
It must be remembered that we are talking about fee paying schools here, who are subject to market forces. Most of the parents who send these schools are middle/upper middle class, educated, and if spending good money on schooling should also be well informed.
So if these independent schools are offering IGCSE there is a good reason.
The Shakespeare issue is a red herring.
My daughter did IGCSEs in Shanghai. I too was worried that they were a watered down version of GCSEs. I did some research and they are not, they are more like the old GCSEs that most of us would recognise.
The IGCSEs my daughter did were Cambridge board. The are recognised as being harder. They are not dumbed down (remember all the controversy about record GCSE results). Many universities in the UK have complained about an inability to recognise students of better ability among the sea of A grades they are now faced with. When my daughter approached UK universities they were more than happy to accept her IGCSE grades at face value.
One of the reasons why many schools want IGCSEs is that they do not offer combined sciences at Level.
They offer separate IGCSE O'levels in Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. GCSEs don't .
The combined science GCSE is particularly controversial. For example, if you are good at the physics part of your GCSE O'level, but not good at biol and/or chem, you cannot do physics A'level.
Is it any wonder we are short of scientists.
Many parents who pay for their kids to go to school also want IGCSE or International Baccalaureate, but the current Govt does not want to count them in the league tables.
It has been speculated that this is being used as a political tool to force independent schools to conform and/or make them less attractive. With a view to phasing them out, because they are seen by some as being elitist.
Meanwhile the state education system seems to many to be going downhill fast.
Just my two cents.
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Now is the winter of our discontent !!! Made glorious summer by ?????
We both love Shakespear now that it is not compulsary for us to study. Being local to Stratford I suppose helps more so now that we are informed that Will spoke like what how we do.
Also made some fine Fishing tackle as I recall
Steve
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Would somebody care to explain to an ignorant Aussie what GCSE actually stands for???
Mark, a similar situation applies here, as regards the private v state education system. The private, or independent, schools are seen to be elitist, and some of the more affluent ones really are, but the vast majority of independent schools do not charge exorbitant fees, and provide a high quality alternative to the government run system. Opponents of private education claim that too much government money is given to the independents, resulting in lower levels of funding to state schools. What these people don't seem to realise is, most of the money given by government to private schools is used to pay teacher salaries, and would have to be paid whichever system the teacher is employed by.
The simple fact is that independent schools play a vital role in education, a role which the government could not fulfill should the private system be phased out. Despite what some of its opponents think, this scenario is never likely to happen, as the private system is too well entrenched, and it would be totally unrealistic to even contemplate closing it down.
Peter.
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Hi Peter
GCSE, General Certificate of Secondary Education.
There were basically two levels. Ordinary level (O'level) and Advanced level (A'level).
These can be taken in a range of subjects.
O'Levels require 2 years study normally, and exams are taken at about 16 years of age.
Good grades mean you can go on to A'levels, exams are taken at 18. The grades achieved in these exams earns you points for university entry.
In more recent years they have split the two years A'level study with certificates being awarded if students bail after 1 year. So now we 'A', 'AS', and 'A star'.
Because of the introduction of league tables for the performance of a school (based on exam results), it is in the schools interest to help students pass. The course work is one area where grade inflation is possible.
Also some schools seem to opting for 'softer subjects', like sociology and critical thinking. And away from harder subjects like languages. This is because a pass in Applied Mathematics is equal to a pass in contemplating one's navel.
It may also be part of the reason why there was a move away from teaching the 3 sciences, and now we have a combined science O'Level. As the Government is always showing that the grades are the highest in history, assumptions about the quality of the Government's leadership in education are then made.
Many people including business men and universities say that standards have fallen. Others argue that they have not, we just have better teachers.
I tend to think that standards have dropped because, across the board IQ among the population has not grown, and if we compare that past to the present things don't add up to me.
Past
When I was in state school we did 8 O'levels, and if we went on 4 A'levels.
At O'Level only 2 or 3 students each year would get 8 grade A results.
A grade C (think 50%) was a pass, a grade D was a fail.
At A level straight A grades were rare.
Present
Kids do 12-14 O'levels. A larger number get straight A grades.
Also a grade E is a pass, although most employers ignore anything below a grade C.
Most students still only do A/AS/A* in 4 subjects. But straight A grades are more common.
The fact that independent schools are opting out of the GCSE system is very telling.
I would be interested to read the Guardian Newspaper's Education section's take on this. Rather than some of the other press. I think I will do that.
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On a slightly different tack Peter.
In the very old days, when I did my exams. There were two level of education available up to age 16, in state schools.
There were GCE (General Cert. of Ed.) O'levels, and there were CSE (Certificate of Secondary Education).
The more academically gifted, who would probably go on to A'levels and perhaps university, did GCEs.
Those students who were more likely to go into the workplace took CSEs. These had a more vocational leaning. For example, in maths there would be more numeracy skills and less pure maths. An A grade at CSE was seen as being a GCE equivalent pass at grade C.
The Government in the late 70s, in its wisdom, decided to merge them into the GCSE. So that perhaps all could aspire to university one day.
In later years the Government introduced a new qualification the NVQ (National Vocational Qualification), this was introduced to fill the hole left by the CSE but also included the ability to go on to higher NVQ levels (level 6 is honours degree equivalent). Sadly, a lot of kids who could do very well in the NVQ system stay in the GCSE system in the vain hope that they can go to university. And they fail.
The Government is also talking about statutory education to age 18. This may be aimed at keeping unemployed yoofs off the streets but will further hamper an already struggling eduction system.
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Here it is from the Guardian.
A left wing paper for the middle class.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/04/private-schools-gcses-manchester-grammarschool
The reason for Manchester Grammar School's switch to IGCE is that the government is introducing even softer (as seen by the school) GCSEs in September 2009.
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When I became a "jobseeker" as one of Major's millions, I took an NVQ course to be able to have a piece of paper that said I could do the job I had been doing for the previous several years. That, and keeping the benefit going a few more months. Most of the interviews I had, the interviewer was more interested in my modest collection of elderly GCE O levels and City & Guilds than the nice new shiny NVQ, supposedly at the same level at on the face of it, more appropriate for that job.
One of the people on the course did not like it. He had done supposedly the same course previously at a different establishment. At the other one, course work consisted of collecting handouts and putting them in a folder in the right order. Not so with Freda the dragon lady. You produced your own examples.
Incidentally, 2 of those GCE passes were "General Science" on two syllabi, but usually got counted as one subject. As I was cr rubbish at biology (long Latin names for everything delivered by a very Welsh teacher apart from my total lack of talent in the field) it was the physics and chemistry that got me through the general sciences. I could have had two more for free!
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Thanks for that explanation, Mark, I've often wondered what GCSE stood for.
It seems that the education system in Britain is in a similar situation to the system here in NSW. There is also a push to keep kids at school until age 18 which I feel, is ridiculous. There is no point keeping kids at school just for the sake of it, the less academically inclined should be encouraged to channel their energies into other fields, such as technical training.
Education in Australia is run on a state basis, and each state has its own system. The Federal Government contributes to each state's finances, but has no real say in the running of the education systems. This, to my mind, is absolutely stupid. I, and many others, feel that education should be on a national basis, but if this were to occur, the problem would be which system to adopt as the national standard, as each state would want their system chosen.
The state system worked well enough in years gone by, but with the movement between states that occurs now, many children are severely disadvantaged if the family moves to another state. I have seen this in my own family, when my youngest son and his family moved from NSW to Queensland for 3 years, than came back to NSW. The children had to adapt to different education systems twice in a relatively short time which, at a young age is not too bad, but can be very difficult in later school years.
Peter.
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Hi Malcolm
I know what you mean about the lower level NVQs. They can be more about the paper-trail than the training. They are really for absolute beginers, but at that time the Govt was trying to force the NVQs on to us.
Like the old City and Guilds they were trying to replace (C&G still going strong), the lower levels are aimed at those who achieved little in schools.
It can be argues that NVQ 1 is hardly worth the paper it is written on, but it can be a first step for those who left school with nothing. Level 2, 3, etc are then open.
The higher levels are widley recognised. For many professional bodies/institutions, they can be accepted in place of some of the institutions' examination content.
My brother was obliged to do NVQ 4 recently at his work and he did find parts of it useful. Even though he has been doing his job for 15 years. His job is semi-skilled, but now he does have some form of further education qualification which is useful.
If he chose to he could move up through level 5 to level 6. This is degree equivalent and is recognised by industry.
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Re: the NVQ system.
We ran three NVQ's for different organisations, which should have produced largely similar outcomes. The first was so basic that anyone on this forum could have achieved success with five minutes of tuition. The second was a very difficult job, highly industry slanted, I've seen adults weep at it (and it was intended for new entrants into the industry). The third was a dream setup, loads of practical work (in a number of different trade areas) plus very highly organised trade training schools plus industrial experience plus a very hefty academic content. The disgusting fact is that any sudent would only be shown as achieving the same standard - regardless of which scheme they did. National standards? ehhh, no comment.
To my personal disgust, I was compelled to do one (to prove that I could do my job - after nearly thirty years in post). What did I achieve? I learned how to gather "evidence", sort paperwork and bite my tongue at the futile waste of effort (for which I received a whole sheaf of certificates). Not that I hadn't been quite capable of doing that prior to the course. The final twist to this one, I received my paperwork back from the assessors ten days before I (gratefully) accepted early retirement.
Like the old City and Guilds they were trying to replace (C&G still going strong)
You may find that, in order to get some courses (notably BTEC) off the ground, many colleges raided the C&G courses for students and to "persuade" employers that these courses were the latest thing transferred students to them. Result? The craft level courses were weakened, the technician level courses were (in many cases)shelved ( although still on the books) and students were put into work that they were not suited to or could not achieve success in. Square pegs into round holes comes to mind.
The general term for the operation is, I believe, empire building. Just witness the number of instances of admin staff being increased vastly and the (not uncommon) cases of financial "errors" that have come to light.The "old" system was not perfect but it did produce (mostly) the required outcomes i.e students who achieved a set national standard in their own subject area.
A final quote from an educationalist "Education can be said to have talen place when there is a change in attitude".
Am I cynical? Me? <:(
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Am I cynical? Me?
Nah. Sceptical is probably nearer the mark. The cynical are those running (or is it ruining, only a small change) the system, and don't care about the outcome as long as their personal paycheck comes through.
Wonderful language, English, owing a lot to the likes of the immoral bard. You have to bear in mind that it had only been around a couple of hundred years as a language when he wrote his stuff, before it was a sort of French for the nobs, and for the rest it was an accent with strong local roots, be they Saxon, Danish, Norwegian or whatever. English has come a long way since then, but looks set the regress to sounds with optional meaning.
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Shakespeare? One of the people who makes me proud to be english. (Can I still say that ?) Other nationalities are availble but may contain nuts. But in spite of all temptations, to belong to other nations (etc)
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immoral bard
Was that a Freudian slip?
Yes, I know he has a character called Bottom.....
Colin
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I know he was immortal, but perhaps he was immoral too ok2 . Some of his characters certainly didn't have high morals {-).
Peter.
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Yes, but he had real gravitas didn't he? Only they called it Bottom in those days. ok2
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Not so much a Freuian slip, more of a malapropism, from Mrs Malaprop, Sheridan's "The Rivals". She reappeared last century as Hylda Baker, and my auntie Peggy.
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a) when did you last use that knowledge of Shaky that you learned in school, and
b) is the government not throwing it's dummy out' the pram because it can't get it's own way in totally ******* up the education of people in this country.
A/ Yesterday.. "Good morrow my lord" Richard III, Act 3, Scene 2
B/ Yes, but with good reason. British schools should teach British Language (English), British history (First).. and some European history (Second).. and some world history (Third).
re point b) If the Schools in Britain, were to teach British history first, European and world history would be well covered any way!!!
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One day i'm gonna call you on that pint! :-))
Ordinarily I receive an email letting me know whenever a new reply to any particular thread comes in. Oddly enough, I only received that email alert about five minutes ago, else I would have replied sooner. Sorry about that.
Sure, call for that pint anytime. In fact, since you bothered to pen such neat words, let's make it several pints. That was quite a nice, uplifting piece you wrote there. Top thanks to you.
NHP:
I believe you, buddy. Archaeology never seemed to interest me in my teen years, but for some reason it suddenly became dead interesting with a whole new appeal by the time I reached my thirties. I think I can identify with your interest on the subject, probably down to Tony Robinson's Time Team program, and also a girl by the name of Claire, who I happened to meet one night in a local pub, who, as it turned out, had studied archaeology at York university (It really is brilliant what you can learn from the educated ones). She introduced me to a girl called Jennifer, who in turn introduced me to the world of theatre. That was when I had my first taste of Shakespeare. 'The Tempest' it was called. A strange new world, and at times a little hard for a working-class dork to understand. But, with names such as Aeriel and Miranda, etc., the whole scene was quite an eye-opener - quite enjoyable if you care to get into it.
So, to answer your question, the thing Shakespeare done for me was to meet a top-notch educated and gorgeous flooze who just happened to have a thing for long-haired, guitar-playing bozos.
It seems old Will still has quite a fan club.
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Come the revolution, perhaps sanity will prevail and the kids will get back to a decent system that they will benifit from.
Hello, Mr. Sweeper. Good to see your name here, too.
How are you, sire? Long time no hear.
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Archaeology....a career in ruins. :embarrassed:
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My wife is an Archaeologist,,,,
She is always digging up my past
R, {:-{
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"...his brave fleet
With silken streamers the young Phoebus fanning:
Play with your fancies, and in them behold
Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
You stand upon the ravage and behold
A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
For so appears this fleet majestical,
Holding due course to Harfleur. Follow, follow:
Grapple your minds to sternage of this navy,
And leave your England, as dead midnight still,
Guarded with grandsires, babies and old women,
Either past or not arrived to pith and puissance;
For who is he, whose chin is but enrich'd
With one appearing hair, that will not follow
These cull'd and choice-drawn cavaliers to France?"
...It's no bad, is it?
Andy
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More and more schools and education systems are being placed under increasing pressure to perform and turn out lots of good grades. This can lead to students being taught how to pass the exam rather than being taught! i see it increasingly in Asia where people have great grades, but no idea what to do :o