Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: DavieTait on April 01, 2009, 04:26:57 PM

Title: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 01, 2009, 04:26:57 PM
Latest info is 16 onboard , 10 bodies recovered with 6 missing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7977095.stm
http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/1151691?UserKey=

A sad sad day indeed. This happened only 35 miles from where I live and the local Lifeboats are out searching for survivors.

My thoughts go out to the families of the men that have been lost
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: nhp651 on April 01, 2009, 06:39:45 PM
God bless them all, and their families too.
It hits home when you have  lost friends that way, and have others working the north sea.
my sincere condolences to all their families at this awfully sad time.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 01, 2009, 08:36:33 PM
I don't think there's much to say after that.

Very sorry for your loss Dan and Joan. A prayer tonight would be indeed in order, whether you believe or not.

Colin
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Garabaldy on April 01, 2009, 10:41:10 PM
living in aberdeen - the vast majority of people you encounter travel to work by these helicopters.  This is very sad news.  My thoughts are with the familys and loved ones of all who are involved
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 02, 2009, 04:20:17 PM
Latest from the Evening Express

Quote from: Evening Express
Those lost in the tragic crash were:
Brian Barkley, 30, Aberdeen
James Costello, 24, Aberdeen
Alex Dallas, 62, Aberdeen
Vernon Elrick, 41, Aberdeen
Warren Mitchell, 38, Oldmeldrum
Leslie Taylor, 41, Kintore
Stuart Wood, 27, Newmachar
Paul Burnham, 31, Methlick
Raymond Doyle, 57, Cumbernauld
James Edwards, 33, Liverpool
Nairn Ferrier, 40, Dundee
Nolan Goble, 44, Norwich
Gareth Hughes, 53, Angus
David Rae, 63, Dumfries
Richard Menzies, 24, Drotwich Spa.

One victim has still to be named by police.

Alex Dallas was one of the men rescued in the February ditching where all 18 men were saved.

My deepest condolences go out to the families of the men who have been lost
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: wbeedie on April 03, 2009, 04:21:42 PM
Not nice for his family Davie having to go through it all again two trips later
My thoughts got to all the families involved
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: catengineman on April 03, 2009, 05:41:17 PM
A sad time for all the families involved.

My thoughts are with them.

R,
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: gribeauval on April 10, 2009, 10:53:36 PM
Just read this report on the BBC website:

Click here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7994305.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7994305.stm)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 10, 2009, 11:08:31 PM
Tail rotor gearbox again! These "super pumas" need a rethink me thinks! I was looking at one the other day, nice looking machine, but, in the hanger they had the gearbox for the tail rotor  in bits, must be cos of these two crashes, thing is, it has happened before these latest two and the beggers knew there was a fault then. Being an engineer at heart, the thrust bearings do not seem up to the job.

 Paul... >>:-( <*<
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: polaris on April 11, 2009, 02:54:53 PM

Dear Paul,

The Puma has been about for quite a while now, and I have been in one or two. But it is rather strange that probs. have 'suddenly' appeared - they have been flying well until recently.

Regards, Bernard
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 11, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
Not that long ago they "all" got grounded for some sort of problem, I will look in to it again and let you know Bernard. The one they have in the hanger where my chopper is stored is completely in bits now, just the airframe still in one piece, they even took the windows out and have it all layed out on the floor like a Haynes manual.

 Paul... :-)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 11, 2009, 09:46:41 PM
It was the S3 variant that was grounded Paul after the crash off Canada. It was defective gearbox mounting bolts that caused that incident with only 1 survivor. It was the gearbox that went on this helicopter so looks like they will have to do a full check on all of the Super Puma variants to make sure the mounting bolts are up to the job I guess.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: wbeedie on April 11, 2009, 09:54:37 PM
Was that not the Sikorksky that crashed off Canada Davie ,the reason the Coastguards fleet were grounded also
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 11, 2009, 09:56:35 PM
Hi Dave, what I have been told by the guys in the know, is the same thing as what you basically just said, there are several versions of the Puma, they by the sound of it will be checking them all no matter what variant by the look of it at the moment. The same sort of problems have occured with Chinooks, Sea kings and a few others, the new civvy version of the Hawk is under investigation too as I beleive from a US mate of mine.
 Cost cutting? I would not like to say, but, those bolts if that was the problem? Have to be of a certain tensile strength, not just any nut or bolt.
 The reported problems and these two crashes just lately described by survivors, is hearing a loud mechanical bang, the aircraft then goes in to a free fall spin with no controll and either the main assembly or the tail pylon breaks away, they first thought it was the thrust bearings, but, they are now not too sure, but, I better not say anything else on this for now.

 Paul...
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 11, 2009, 10:19:28 PM
Your right Willie that was a Sikorsky that went down but it seems to be a relevant crash as it was the gearbox mounting bolts that failed and in this case with the Super Puma S2 it was the gearbox coming off the engine ( starboard engine casing badly damaged from within by reports in the press ) so it does look like a problem that all manufacturers need to look at again
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Bryan Young on April 12, 2009, 06:10:59 PM
it may be helpful if one of you aircraft technicians could explain the operation of the tail rotor.
As a layman I only really saw (and understood) a 1" shaft with 45* bevel gears at each end. The tail rotor is a flappy thing without any purpose apart from preventing the aircraft from spinning. Our Sea Kings always had "problems" with the drive to the tail rotor.  Somebody with more knowledge than I have could perhaps explain? Hopefully..BY.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: andyn on April 12, 2009, 06:40:48 PM
it may be helpful if one of you aircraft technicians could explain the operation of the tail rotor.
As a layman I only really saw (and understood) a 1" shaft with 45* bevel gears at each end. The tail rotor is a flappy thing without any purpose apart from preventing the aircraft from spinning. Our Sea Kings always had "problems" with the drive to the tail rotor.  Somebody with more knowledge than I have could perhaps explain? Hopefully..BY.
The tail rotor is a fan mounted on the tail boom of the helicopter, with a lateral axis of rotation. The thrust it creates is offset from the center of gravity, producing torque which counters the torque created by the main rotor. The pitch of the tail rotor blades is adjustable by the pilot via the anti-torque pedals, which allows the pilot to rotate the helicopter around its vertical axis, providing directional control.

Basically, it stops it spinning...
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 12, 2009, 10:18:14 PM
Andy has more or less explained what it does there Bryan, but to add, it is basically a rudder as well.
 If you had a ship with only one prop and no rudder, you would end up sailing round in circles in the water, similar thing here with helicopters.If you are at any height and you lose the tail rotor, you are normally screwed as all you do is spin, in some helicopters the tail rotor is driven independantly from the main rotor assembly through either belt drive or another gear box from the engine/ s.
 If you lose the main rotor you have no choice but, to go down as basically you have lost your wings and then it gets very messy real quick. I had a tail rotor hit a fence a few weeks ago when got caught in a very strong gust of wind on landing, it was lucky I was only about 6 feet or so off the ground at the time, I killed the power and just dropped it on the ground.
 Saved the aircraft apart from the tail boom, which has now been replaced and the aircraft is flying again now.
 I can't post pictures at the moment as I have a new PC with no photo suite on it to re size pictures.

 Paul... :-)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Bryan Young on April 12, 2009, 10:40:06 PM
Andy has more or less explained what it does there Bryan, but to add, it is basically a rudder as well.
 If you had a ship with only one prop and no rudder, you would end up sailing round in circles in the water, similar thing here with helicopters.If you are at any height and you lose the tail rotor, you are normally screwed as all you do is spin, in some helicopters the tail rotor is driven independantly from the main rotor assembly through either belt drive or another gear box from the engine/ s.
 If you lose the main rotor you have no choice but, to go down as basically you have lost your wings and then it gets very messy real quick. I had a tail rotor hit a fence a few weeks ago when got caught in a very strong gust of wind on landing, it was lucky I was only about 6 feet or so off the ground at the time, I killed the power and just dropped it on the ground.
 Saved the aircraft apart from the tail boom, which has now been replaced and the aircraft is flying again now.
 I can't post pictures at the moment as I have a new PC with no photo suite on it to re size pictures.

 Paul... :-)
Thank you....but I'm surprised that the pitch of the tail rotor is variable...I'm sure it wasn't on a Sea King. Pleased you dropped from only 6' though! Cheers. BY.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 12, 2009, 10:51:22 PM
They are almost all variable Bryan, they work almost the same as the main rotor head, by adding right or left peddal, you can either make it spin left or right around the axis, with the main rotor, the cyclic stick alters the vector of the blades there, this gives you either lift or no lift, plus banking in most cases if you turn and bank using all contoll surfaces at once it can be real fun!
 They are not for the feint hearted though if you want to do any aerobatics of any kind, it normally makes people chuck up as they tend to get dis oreintated if they don't know what is happening. I got the back of my head covered in puke two weeks ago.

 Nice!

 Paul... :-)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: BarryM on April 12, 2009, 10:53:21 PM
Hang on a mo' - was it not the case that the entire main rotor assemby became detached from the gearbox (for reasons so far undeclared) and in doing so sliced through the tailboom? The rotor assembly then, according to eyewitnesses, fell into the sea independently from the fuselage and seperated boom? Comments above seem to be at variance with this.

Barry M
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 12, 2009, 10:57:51 PM
Hi Barry this is why I said in an earlier post that I'd better not say too much about the crash, I am simply trying to explain how helicopters work here, the out come of the last crash will be reported once they know for sure, they have got a Puma in bits where I fly from, examining everything litterally, they are looking for what was the actual cause, not the speculated cause.

 Paul... ;)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: BarryM on April 12, 2009, 11:06:18 PM
Go http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/G-REDL%20-%20Initial%20AAIB%20Report.pdf which confirms rotor separation and tailboom strike.

Barry M
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 12, 2009, 11:25:32 PM
This is obviously why they have got one completely stripped down here then. Looks like main drive shaft failure to me or main bearings at the moment, this report says they still do not know for sure Barry!
 Paul... %)
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: BarryM on April 13, 2009, 08:26:49 AM
No, they don't know the cause of the rotor head detaching but they do know that it did - which was my point in the first place.

Barry M
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 13, 2009, 11:04:58 AM
Thanks for the update Barry , all i had heard was that the gearbox had separated didn't realise it was the whole rotor hub assembly that came off , that makes it even more of a problem as I would have thought the fixing bolts for that assembly would be the strongest on the helicopter having to hold its entire weight as well as all of the dynamic loading with flying.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: BarryM on April 16, 2009, 09:10:37 AM
After yesterday's Memorial Service in Aberdeen, BBC news broadcasts referred only to a service for the "16 men who died in the helicopter crash". The 17th man who died on the same day on the Wellservicer, was also remembered at the service but did not rate a mention by the BBC studio presenter.

I wonder how his family felt about that?

Barry M
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DavieTait on April 16, 2009, 08:08:03 PM
He was mentioned in the half 6 BBC Scotland News Barry and was mentioned a few times in their coverage on the BBC News24 channel on the Satellite.
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: BarryM on April 16, 2009, 09:20:37 PM
Aye, Davie, but almost just in passing and the newspaper coverage today was no better. His death was as much a tragedy as all the other lads. Sad really.

Barry M
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Garabaldy on April 17, 2009, 06:07:40 PM
what sickens me is when the reporting scotland team were doing a report outside the st nic church a man in the background dropped his trowsers.  Extremely insensitive >>:-(
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: Garabaldy on April 17, 2009, 07:22:34 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8003182.stm
Title: Re: Helicopter ditches in North Sea , 30 miles East of Crimmond...
Post by: DARLEK1 on April 17, 2009, 09:03:19 PM
I see they have grounded two different versions now due to findings so far.
 H'mm, what did I say in an earlier post?

 Paul... >:-o