Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Inkmark on May 05, 2009, 04:40:03 pm
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Guys
Just had a conversation with MOVAC, the car paint supply people, and can't quite believe what I have been told.
MOVAC would not sell me a litre of acrylic silver because it is a dangerous substance and I am not an accredited car painter.
I pointed out I could buy as much acrylic or spirit based paints as I wanted at Halfords or B&Q but he was adamant on it.
He said the government had put the block on trade supplies selling paint to Joe Public, seems like either GB or Euro government has struck again.
If this is true then is it the tip of an iceburg, how long will it be until we cannot buy paint at all.
After all even tea is dangerous, too much and you can drown.
In that famous phrase, I don't believe it.
Any one else has a similar problem?
Mark
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This is presumably why you cant get Tamiya metallic acrylics any more.
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Brilliant news about time as well.The government have actually got it right for a change :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Let me explain a few things to you on why it has been done,there are far to many so called mechanics and panel beatersout therte who buy write offs do them up in the back garden paint them and sell them off as good cars,and in effect most of them are death traps,it will also stop the lads in the body shops doing foreigners at home and believe you me as an ex Garage owner I am all for this.
What kills the garage trade in general is the lads doing foreigners at home so the garage will not get the work,BRILLIANT news as they will not be able to get paint to do the jobs,this has been on the cards for years bring it on I say
Stav
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I personally think that this is a Bad Idea , as the same could be said for any trade item Eg copper piping as you could be taking the trade away from a plumber, general paint as you are taking the trade away from a painter and decorator, I can understand where Stavros is coming from but at the end of the day if somebody in the trade wants to do a foreigner they will get the paint one way or another.
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Brilliant news about time as well.The government have actually got it right for a change :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Let me explain a few things to you on why it has been done,there are far to many so called mechanics and panel beatersout therte who buy write offs do them up in the back garden paint them and sell them off as good cars,and in effect most of them are death traps,it will also stop the lads in the body shops doing foreigners at home and believe you me as an ex Garage owner I am all for this.
What kills the garage trade in general is the lads doing foreigners at home so the garage will not get the work,BRILLIANT news as they will not be able to get paint to do the jobs,this has been on the cards for years bring it on I say
Stav
so as you are a painter you should not be sold brake parts or wheel bearings then is that ok or any car repair parts that are not paint related
Proteus
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So you really think that if someone is nefarious enough to put out dodgy motors, that they're going to respect the law when it comes to obtaining paint?
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Its like the Number plate rules, I needed one for my wife's car walked in to my local motor factors and gave them the reg and they did it while I waited and no I was not in the car for them to check.I was supprised, as my mate had to hand over his log book and all sorts.
Proteus
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Whilst I agree with Dave to a certain extent, the same could be said of almost anything.
As has been pointed out, the "shady" characters will always find a way round any law, it's usually the law-abiders who are the ones who feel morally obliged to obey whatever laws come out ie. the gun law (only effected bone-fide club members, the criminals can still pick a gun up for pennies).
Next we'll have the scratch builders banned because they are taking the trade off professional model kit manufacturers!
Danny
the over-cosseted!
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so as you are a painter you should not be sold brake parts or wheel bearings then is that ok or any car repair parts that are not paint related
Proteus
'I'm not sure that quite right' Proeteus (moderated) :-)
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It would be nice to have a pointer to the particular rule. Until a link can be provided to a checkable source, it is quite likely a fiction to cover a restrictive practice, otherwise known as a lame excuse.
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Judging from what was said in the original post, it would appear to me that any restriction on the sale of automotive paints to the general public would be on the grounds of safety, rather than stopping any threat, real or otherwise, to the motor repair trade.
Peter.
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This paint thing has been doing the rounds in the health and safety world for a while now, it is one reason Revell and Humbroll have brought out their own accrylics.
We model making type chaps have to deal with that and stop slanging off who ever the newest target may be, if ya get me?
Stuff happens, even if we don't like it, we just have to deal with it!
Find something new that you can still get without Brussells getting in the way!
Paul... :((
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Banning Brussels from general use would be a start. and I don't mean those round greeney things.. :}
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Stav
(moderated) what is wrong with stopping non qualified people access to brake and steering parts, its only the same as giving non trained access to paint..there was someone Jailed last year for modifying a land rover that lead to a accident..
Proteus
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This latest move suggests that Government/Brussels (whoever) pre-supposes that the car repair brigade are the only legitimate users of cellulose based spray paints? (If that is what we are talking about here)?
If that is the case, there is going to be uproar when (say) control panel manufacturers are no longer able to paint their products. What about steel office furniture (e.g filing cabinet) manufacturers? Architectural steelwork manufacturers? The list is endless, and not all products are powder coated.
I honestly can't see all of those industries turning to Humbrol acrylics {-) {-) I'm also prepared to bet that as a legitimate Limited Liability Company, if I place a purchase order on my local paint supplier, it would be supplied without any problem?
I can remember a thread on the Forum a while back about a guy who had designed and built his own (potentially lethal) spray booth. Truth is that volatile spray paints are probably best kept away from Joe Public, it's tough on the ones who know what they're doing, but kind to those who don't?
Malc
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Stav
(moderated) what is wrong with stopping non qualified people access to brake and steering parts, its only the same as giving non trained access to paint..there was someone Jailed last year for modifying a land rover that lead to a accident..
Proteus
and the 'someone' jailed was a mechanic!
Barry M
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i recently bought paint, and 25 litres of cellulose thinners from a suppliers trade counter, - there are also a multitude of industrial modelmakers out there who still buy and use cellulose, two pack and other paints and solvent products for legitimate commercial use, - and we are not in the car painting business !
we do however have fully certifcated and COSHH regualted spray booths and we are not ' fly by night' merchants with no care for safety or whatever.....
its the first time i have heard of this 'new ruling' but i will watch and wait to see what happens,
on the point stav just made i recently bought a car at auction, with painted front bumper- this had at some stage had an impact, the bumper was cracked and the fog light had been damaged, and one small bit of trim was missing.... the local body shop/ accident repair palce wanted £1100 for the repairs...
i decided i could do the job .... I bought the bumper, fog lights, trim, paint and all parts for £400 and i painted them myself...... yes it took my time but this basically is only a bolt on moulding, - some body shops think we are all made of money and us drivers are there to be ripped off !- i cant see why legitimate honest, decent people cant buy the products they want from decent legimate trade suppliers, why does brussels think they know best ?
and as stav does point out stopping the 'cut n shutters' from buying paint will only mean it all goes 'underground' - and it will send illegal sales of paint and supplies through the roof....they will still sell dodgy deathtrap cars....
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and the 'someone' jailed was a mechanic!
Barry M
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He was not a trained Mechanic Just another who thought he was.
Proteus
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4323665/Father-Nigel-Gresham-jailed-after-Land-Rover-crash-killed-his-four-children.html
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Must have gone through the same training as the 'mechanics' in Coronation Street and Emmerdale.
Cheers,
Barry M
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There are plenty of volatile and potentially dangerous chemical products available in any yacht chandler including two pack paints etc. I can't see those being banned otherwise people would be unable to maintain their boats.
All this increased regulation is encouraging people not to take responsibility for their own actions which probably ultimately defeats the object as they cease to understand what is potentially dangerous and what isn't.
Colin
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Hi Guys,
Quite a hornets nest here.
I have been on to MOVAC again and they have a policy of not supplying the public.
The only answer I can get is the universal health and safety nonsense but I do feel it is a bit of protectionism.
I cannot track a piece of legilastion that prevents the sale to the public so it may just be a put-off by MOVAC.
If you want a minor repair on your car you could be forced to go to the trade rather than do it yourself because of the colour match.
I have just purchased 10 litres of anti foul for my 1:1 scale boat with no H&S problems, and as you all know that is more toxic than a litre of silver acrylic.
I will try other paint suppliers in the near future and see what happens, but if they all stick together painting cars could be a thing of the past.
I get what Stavros says about the criminal element but you can still go to Halfords and get a few spray cans, there will always be a way.
Keep you posted.
Mark
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Bet the main agents still sell touch up cans. O0 Didn't know that acrylics were Cellulose based?? So if a car has been sprayed up with "Propper" paint it's been repaired "Propperly" :-)) Hmmm, Wada ya know.
Regards Ian.
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Hi Inkmark,
i think you are going to find problems with the other paint suppliers also. over the last 2 years the powers that be have really tightened up on the enforcement of the health & safety laws with regards to paint supplies. In the mid 1990's Brussels (well Germany really) introduced the coshh (control of substances hazardous to health ) laws, which had particular affect on spray painting. As usual most of the UK ignored the ruling, however, the last 2 years have seen a major clamp down on the suppliers & manufactures.
Most suppliers are required to take reasonable precautions to ensure that they only supply to registered users, so are not willing to sell to the general public.
Or to put it another way, they make sure the cant get their asses sued off by someone using the products they supplied & causing harm with them.
The reason you can still buy aerosols from halfords etc, is because it is considered that the amount of voc ( volatile organic compound) contained in 1 aerosol is insignificant, & most people don't buy these in enough quantity to cause a problem.
As from the beginning of 2009 it has been illegal for paint companies to manufacture 2 pack paint as it used to be. There are still some 2 packs available but these have to
manufactured to complie to new legislation & only contain small amounts of voc. also the solvent content of all paints had had to be significantly reduced.
There are several loop holes in this legislation which are being exploited by both manufactures & suppliers, but the net is closing & soon it will be almost impossible to get around the legislation.
Ask our many mayhemmers on the continent how easy it is to purchase these type of products in their countries & you will see how lax the laws have been applied here.
Just as a thought, try going to your local body shop & asking if you can purchase some paint from them. I 'd try the smaller independent ones , not the big main dealer ones, & remember to say the magic four letter word CASH, you will be surprised what doors that word opens in the motor trade lol.
Cheers Glenn
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All this increased regulation is encouraging people not to take responsibility for their own actions which probably ultimately defeats the object as they cease to understand what is potentially dangerous and what isn't.
Well said, Colin, I totally agree. :-))
Peter.
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Unlike you guys there is no EEC over here and we can buy whatever paint we choose,
Acrylic is dirt cheap here in Tasmania, you can buy it in tins from 100ml to 200 litres..
Roy
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What are we talking about here? I once sprayed a motorbike.. had the compressor, spray gun, bought a tin of cellulose car paint (of my choice) and thinners and some laquer. Are you saying I'll not be able to do that nowadays?
To the garage owner who wants to stop 'foreigners' or 'non garage repairs', fine... then stop B&Q selling bags of plaster or cement, make it a legal requiremnt that owning a cement mixer, or scaffold, or any building tool that you need to belong to a building industry trade body.
Life isn't fair but I don't sqeal like a pig because of it. If a mechanic does a dodgy repair on a landrover, well on his conscience be it.. you can't ban or outlaw home repairs because of it.
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... then stop B&Q selling bags of plaster or cement, make it a legal requiremnt that owning a cement mixer, or scaffold, or any building tool that you need to belong to a building industry trade body.
Give them a little time, they'll do it soon enough...
I'm a professionally qualified electrical/control engineer of 40 years standing - but I'm no longer allowed to work on the electrics in my own house. I'd have to go and do an electricians Part 'P' course and qualification first - around £800 / £900 for the course and (give or take) £1000/year thereafter...
Malc
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All this increased regulation is encouraging people not to take responsibility for their own actions which probably ultimately defeats the object as they cease to understand what is potentially dangerous and what isn't.
Absolutely - totally agree :-)) has always amazed me that they seem to clamp down on things like this & yet it's perfectly legal for just about anyone to walk into a garden centre & walk out with a petrol chainsaw..... :o
Not sure if you're all aware of the fact that many large branches of Halfords will make up either 1/2 or 1 litre tins of cellulose colour matched to any car / paint code, from memory the 1/2 litre costs around £14 & is unthinned so goes a long way.
Because we regularly use this service, & worried by the implications of this thread, I've just checked with their supplier & they have no plans to cease doing so :-)
Mark
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I have just spoken to my cousin who owns a garage and accessory shop, he tells me that he knows a lot of wholesalers
that will not sell to the public because of the small amounts required, It requires as much effort to mix up the paint from
one ounce as it does for 45 gallons and that involves a lot of work cleaning up the mixing machine afterwards. If that is so
then I suppose thats as good an excuse as any.. bigH
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Its not an EEC thing, its a world wide thing, most countries are involved, we just abide by the EEC part of it.
All cellulose paints / laquers are banned for most uses, they can not be manufactured for those uses, You can still buy thinners if you can get them to sell it as they can sell it , the cheaper thinner formulations are banned under different laws regarding toluene and some other chemicals etc.
Spray paint in aerosols is not covered by the law and it is still supplied and mixed to colour code as it always has been, the bulk litre cans of paints from paint factors are banned unless you can get permision to use it, one way, your car needs to be classed by the goverment as a classic, then your local classic car club ( you need to be a member) they have a trained (by the goverment dvla etc ) member wil check your car to see if it is worth restoring , if it passes the requirements you then can have permission to buy and paint the car, the one time, an application is needed each time you paint in a suitable classic colour!
You do not need to be a proffessional car restorer, no saftey checks or anything, but you do need the one time licence from a car club each time you buy or use it!
For about 15+ years we have manufactured high VOC cellulose laquers , coloured paints and sanding sealers there is nothing in the new laws to stop us doing this or supplying them to any customer retail , trade ( retailer or wholesaler )
As we manufacture coloured solvent based high VOC enamels , cellulose and 2 pack paints.....and its completely legal to do so! and legal to sell to anyone for certain uses, its the use of it thats banned , and the manufacture for the use in illegal activities they list like homecare/diy, car etc
Its now not worth manufacturing it to most companies as they have lost there main market, 99% of all companies you see in modeling and in large diy stores even do not manufacture it mowst dont even pack it, so they cant buy it as its not being made, the market they have is not big enough to bother with manufacture for the supplier and they do not have the technical knowlege or equipment to make it themselves, especialy as you also need to have been manufacturing it before the year listed in the ban came in to keep making it!
There are still no problems buying the solvents,pigments or resins needed to make it either as long as you have suitable place to store and manufacture for the HSE , fire officers, insurance etc
We are just sorting out waterbased acrylics and olyurethanes as well , as some people want waterbased , but they cant give the finish for some uses that you can get from something like our clear colour nitrocellulose laquers
This years stranger bans, neoprene contact glues can be no more than 227ml (something like that) and they can no longer sell multiples in a box retail to get round it.... one tin per customer!, and polyurethane glues or foams may soon need to be suplied with a gas mask.....
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How will I thin down my sanding sealer? <:(
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All cellulose paints / laquers are banned for most uses, they can not be manufactured for those uses, You can still buy thinners if you can get them to sell it as they can sell it , the cheaper thinner formulations are banned under different laws regarding toluene and some other chemicals etc.
/snipped/
As we manufacture coloured solvent based high VOC enamels , cellulose and 2 pack paints.....and its completely legal to do so! and legal to sell to anyone for certain uses, its the use of it thats banned , and the manufacture for the use in illegal activities they list like homecare/diy, car etc
/snipped/
This years stranger bans, neoprene contact glues can be no more than 227ml (something like that) and they can no longer sell multiples in a box retail to get round it.... one tin per customer!, and polyurethane glues or foams may soon need to be suplied with a gas mask.....
What is the 'why?' behind these laws? Is it to stop glue-sniffers? Is it the ozone layer? Who or what are they protecting?
neoprene contact glues? Is that Evo Stick? I looked but could only find the likes of 'No Nails' or glue to repair wet suits.
Malcom, yes, my brother used to be a plumber but he got out of it... it was Corgi back then. That was a racket... so much to join and a fee every year.
But I can understand them making gas and electricity tradesmen belong to a trade body as people die as a result of bad workmanship, it's a rare case for someone to die as a result of dodgy brickwork or a rough plastered wall. Builders generally only kill themselves, it's plumbers and sparks that kill thei customers. LOL.
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The laws are to reduce the amount of solvents going into the atmosphere, its part of one of the things like the Kyoto agreement, world wide nearly everone agreed to reduce solvent use.
Contact glues, we now do one in waterbased form called Depbond Pro-w , not to be confused with our Depbond that is a solvent based rubber glue, the High strength ones are based on Neoprene but genaraly had toluene as a solvent, this was banned, so the new formulas came in, now they have decided that the replacement solvents are banned, cyclohexanone ( i think ) so they have banned the glue in larger amounts again due to the enviroment.
How will I thin down my sanding sealer? <:(
We still make the thinners as we make the sanding sealer, other companies who manufacture it will still have the thinners but most are not making it anymore, but companies buying paints in own brand will not have the market to sell it now as you cant use it in interior wood finishing on the house so the market is very small and they wont be able to buy it reducing the ease of buying it retail
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Thanks for the update. I'm quite taken aback that our personal choice and 'freedom' is diminishing.
So if a car nut wants to respray his hot-hatch as he's put wide arches on it and a air vent on the bonnet, what's he supposed to use for paint? Surely there's a replacment available?
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Thanks for the update. I'm quite taken aback that our personal choice and 'freedom' is diminishing.
So if a car nut wants to respray his hot-hatch as he's put wide arches on it and a air vent on the bonnet, what's he supposed to use for paint? Surely there's a replacment available?
So when is GRP resin and carbody filler going to be included? - From one who is working on a couple of hulls right now.
You should relaise that these eco a*** h**** don't want car nuts in any shape or form, full Stop.
Hail Big Brother - Not.
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Thanks for the update. I'm quite taken aback that our personal choice and 'freedom' is diminishing.
So if a car nut wants to respray his hot-hatch as he's put wide arches on it and a air vent on the bonnet, what's he supposed to use for paint? Surely there's a replacment available?
You have to use waterbased paint on cars now , or a solvent based aerosol , it can work quite well but the car paint version neds different spray gun and heaters to dry the car afterwards
Ive just put a new bonnet on an escort i bought a few weeks back , legaly it now needs painting white, with either aerosol or waterbased.....im not using either of them when ive finished putting the rest of the kit on the car and the engines changed over to a rs2000 one
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So when is GRP resin and carbody filler going to be included? - From one who is working on a couple of hulls right now.
You should relaise that these eco a*** h**** don't want car nuts in any shape or form, full Stop.
Hail Big Brother - Not.
I havent heard of a ban on resin due to the fact that nothing evaporates from t it is all reactive the styrene that is used as a solvent copolymerises with the polymer so not evaporating, minimising polution, however you do need a licence from the enviroment agency to make fiberglass mouldings if you are doing it as a business, this costs about 2000 pounds! another way of trying to destroy any industry this country has
For sometime now full size boat companies have been using acrylic and polyester light cure resins that have far lower voc contents so polute less and create less waste as you dont have to mix resin up before use, its single part so theres no extra mixed waste setting in containers, but in general its not sold in small amounts as its light sensitive it needs more carefull handling so its harder to pack in small containers by grp suppliers , so it may become harder to get eventualy, but i cant see it being soon
From next year its now deffinate that polyurethane glues containing MDI need to be supplied with a pair of gloves, there still arguing about masks