Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: BlueWotsit on October 08, 2006, 05:24:44 PM

Title: Smoke Generator
Post by: BlueWotsit on October 08, 2006, 05:24:44 PM
Im looking for a simple to install Smoke Generator for a tug boat. I looked at JJC's but wonder if theres anything smaller that could be used, as space is at a premium due to many other bits in the innards.

Never having installed one before any information will no doubt be useful
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: barriew on October 08, 2006, 06:31:55 PM
Look at Action or Hunter systems - both do 'conventional' smoke generators. That is they use oil to produce the smoke by heating it - not vapourising plain water as JJC does. I believe Robbe and/or Grapner do them also.

Barrie
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: BlueWotsit on October 08, 2006, 08:51:07 PM
cheers for that - do you have any idea how long an oil refill lasts for
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Shipmate60 on October 08, 2006, 09:58:15 PM
Not long and they dont make much smoke.
I have one in a Denny Steam Gunboat, but might bite the bullet and get a JJC unit.

Bob
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 09, 2006, 06:31:08 AM
... and the "conventional" ones ( oil heating on a coil of wire ) are Very power hungry!!!

I've heard or some modelers using smoldering wicks or Josh / incense sticks but do you really want a small uncontrolled fire in a model boat?!?!!

Martin.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: BlueWotsit on October 09, 2006, 08:42:07 AM
Ive been looking at the JJC one again as that supposedly lasts about an hour on a water top up. The main problem I have is where to locate this unit as its reasonably large.

I dont have space directly under the funnel, but if perhaps it could be located elsewhere in the hull and a pipe run through to the funnel then that would be the best solution ultimately I think
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: barriew on October 09, 2006, 10:13:04 AM
You can add a reasonably long pipe run with JJC's unit - one of our members is building a large WW1 battleship and hads quite a long run, and it feeds 2 (or3) funnels.

Barrie
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: BlueWotsit on October 09, 2006, 11:46:03 AM
thats good news, what sort of piping are they planning on using ?

cheers
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: barriew on October 09, 2006, 04:51:29 PM
It was white plastic - about 0.5 ins diameter at a guess.

Barrie
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: johno 52-11 on October 09, 2006, 05:31:33 PM
The jjc Smoke unit uses standard overflow pipe and fittings that you can get at DIY stores
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 09, 2006, 05:34:21 PM

22mm domestic plastic (Upvc) plumbing.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: BlueWotsit on October 09, 2006, 06:36:57 PM
sounds great, anyone on here installed a Smokey yet ?
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 09, 2006, 09:26:13 PM
I've got one but fitted it yet.
 Seen loads at the shows, look great.
 On comparison to heat type units the JJC produces water vapour, lots of it but it does disperse
 quicker than smoke.

There is the JJC smoke unit ...... and then all the others!!!
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Shipmate60 on October 09, 2006, 10:21:09 PM
Seen one plembed in with plastic piping running in HMS Vanguard, feeding both funnels.
You can pipe it quite a way, and pumps out oodles of water vapour.

Bob
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: malcolmfrary on October 10, 2006, 12:09:50 AM
All of the joss stick / smouldering wick versions I have seen have had the hot bit in a brass tube up the funnel, so the model never gets hot.  I assume that the ones that didn't have this bit of forethought never lasted until I got to see them.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: cbr900 on October 10, 2006, 03:26:17 AM
Malcom now thats really going up in a puff of smoke....... :o :o :o




Roy
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: malcolmfrary on October 10, 2006, 11:43:21 PM
After watching them for a while, everyone seemed to be smiling when they walked away...... Must have been the pure pleasure of seeing a really nice model with that little extra touch.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 11, 2006, 12:21:14 AM
BTW. - http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/JJC_Smoke.htm (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/JJC_Smoke.htm)
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: lildavid on December 05, 2006, 08:13:01 PM
Hi, I`ve got a Jcc in my Smit Zeeleeuw (nangi). I have used 8mm pipe up the funnels attached to a fabricated "y" piece of same size and material. I then used clear tubing for a flexable joint as I need to remove the cabin, this then goes onto a 8mm to 22mm converter (manufactured) into the unit.
When running off 6v the unit runs for around 35Min's so far, as this is only a bench test. As for sailing unfortunately i forgot to take a warm flask of water as it was a cold day, it doesn't like the cold :( (same as most of us). I ran the model on the water for a good 1/2 hour on 6v but didn`t know if the unit drew any current due to no exhaust smoke.
I`ve heard that you can put black food dye in the water to give black smoke, is this possible ?? as i don't want to damage an expensive unit, In the instructions it says don't use coffee (cos it leaves a sticky residue). If so where can i get some as the local cake shop says it doesn't exist!!
 Hope this helps Dave
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Bunkerbarge on December 05, 2006, 10:20:09 PM
The best fit pipe to use is 21.5 mm overflow pipe.  It actually fits better than the 22 mm plumbing pipe and can be used with with nice neat push on connectors.

The Mark II vesion actually produces noticeably more vapour than the Mark I and comes with a new 'Puffer' configuration and a show mode whereby the unit can produce vapour with no radio signal to the receiver.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: andywright on December 12, 2006, 01:21:16 PM
I fitted one to  my Nangee, running on one funnel for now, I must say it does look realistic. I will most probably will sheathe the generator with mahogany planks and fit it permanently to my steam launch, its a tight fit in Nangee.

Andy
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Kaskazi on December 31, 2006, 02:09:31 PM
Has anyone using the JCC unit noticed any potential problems from condensation?
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: RickF on December 31, 2006, 02:45:57 PM
Since the principle of operation of "Old Smokey" is vapourization/condensation, the chances of potential problems are high. However, provided constant bore plastic piping is used (I believe JCC recommend overflow pipe) and the open end is near the top of the funnel, everything should be OK. I guess a piping system that allows any condensate to run back to the vapourizer would also help.

I should add that I intend to install one in my 1:48 HMVS Cerberus -  if I can wangle the money out of the DSM!

Happy New Year

Rick
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Bunkerbarge on January 06, 2007, 09:40:26 PM
The main consideration is that you have a continuous drop in the exhaust pipe to allow any condensate to run back to the tank.  The use of plastic drain pipe minimises this happening anyway.  The only other opening in the unit is the fan inlet in the top of the tank which is always runing when the nebuliser is in operation.  This ensures that vapours do not enter the boat and cause problems.

I have two now and neither cause any issues with moisture inside the boats.

The large size of the unit is a concern, not just the physical size and how to get it into the boat but also the weight when it is half full of water.  If you have room you can't beat them though, they do not create heat and waste battery power and they generate a nice thick controllable smoke.

The basic principle is that it incorporates a nebuliser which uses a very high frequency to generate a saturated cold water vapour.  This is actually denser than air so it has to be ejected by the fan otherwise it will sit inside the unit.  Condensation does collect on the insides of the exhaust pipe but it simply drops back into the tank ready for another go.  I get about half an hour on one fill but that isn't really an issue as all you have to do is come into the bank when you can top up the tank with a shot from a large syringe down the pipe in the funnel.  This takes about ten seconds and you are ready for another half an hour.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: 2772e on January 08, 2007, 07:27:55 PM
Hi Blue wotsit,

I have one fitted in a 1/12th RTTL with four 22mm pipes in the transom, all horizontal piping Its not quite finished but runs for about 20 minutes, any condensation just runs back into the tank, i have baffled it horizontally and vertically to stop it sloshing around with the speed.

Very impressed with it but it can be a bit temperamental if you switch on/off too quick. You should be able to mount it anywhere in the boat, very little loss of smoke with the pipe run.

Well worth it.

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: justboatonic on February 25, 2007, 02:12:43 PM
Just bought an Envoy civvie tug from Slipway (hopefully delivered tomorrow, Monday!  ;D) and was thinking of a proper steam engine (ACS but they have a full order book to at least April!) although Im a little concerned at operating a 'live' steam engine never mind the 2 yearly bolier test!

This JJC Old Smokey is an alternative. Anyone like to give an indication of price and can it be bought another model shop, if so who, because JJC just doesnt answer my emails!  >:(
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: rats on February 25, 2007, 02:15:37 PM
 justboatonic  Westbourne models sell all of JJC's gear
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Bunkerbarge on February 26, 2007, 03:00:22 PM


I have a Slipways Envoy tug with a JJC Old Smokey MK II fitted.  I am currently having interference problems so I'm going to try some different locations for the control unit but the effect is superb.

I'll put up a picture later.

I bought mine from Jim directly.  I know he can be difficult to get hold of but I have never had a problem and if you need some help he is very willing and accommodating.  I would try to give him a ring.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: justboatonic on March 02, 2007, 09:41:40 PM


Yes but they dont seem tolist the old smokey unit. Lots of sound modules but nothing else that I could find.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: DickyD on March 02, 2007, 10:15:35 PM


They do, its halfway down their home page : http://www.westbourne-models.com/erol.html#1X0

Richard ;)
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: PIT on March 03, 2007, 11:46:15 PM
 I have built a vaporising smoke generator from a small old computer fan, and a pond vaporiser from Maplin. The smallest unit cost 6.49 on offer (normally 12 ish). The unit is 24volt, but very low current. NiMH pen cells run it for well over an hour. I have also built a much larger unit with three generators for a model of Olympic. They are plumbed to the three forward funnels and are quite effective. All from Maplins, and a total of 30.00      PIT :)
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: justboatonic on March 04, 2007, 12:44:50 AM

Cheers, thanks for that! Found it under general boat electrics.
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Barthez on March 05, 2007, 09:00:46 PM


 PIT, I found a mini fogger on the maplin web site and in the FAQ section they say it can only run off 24vAC have yours is OK on DC ?
any pics of your unit in operation ?

Bart
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: funtimefrankie on March 30, 2007, 07:34:41 PM
Having read the above, I got a mini fogger from Maplins.

No smoke on 12volts, it's going back next week :'(
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: PIT on April 22, 2007, 10:17:23 PM
Dear Bart worked fine on DC24 volt
        :)PIT
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: Martin [Admin] on May 20, 2008, 03:48:48 PM
Looks like there's a new vapor steam unit on the market!

http://www.harbormodels.com/site08/main_pages/smoker.htm (http://www.harbormodels.com/site08/main_pages/smoker.htm)
Title: Re: Smoke Generator
Post by: RickF on May 20, 2008, 04:59:51 PM
It's an oil burner, I think

Spec = Uses traditional model train smoke fluid, included with smoke generator

Rick