Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Working Vessels => Topic started by: ZZ56 on May 10, 2009, 06:25:18 am
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Hello Mayhem.
I would like to start this topic with a big thanks to Bluebird, DickyD, Boatmadman and all the others who posted their builds in this section and the Masterclass section. In particular, Bluebird's Cervia step-by-step is what gave me the courage to try this project. This is my first boat build, and my first plank on frame hull, so i have much to learn
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1243.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1246.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1248.jpg)
the spring clamp i used for the ends was a bit too strong!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1250.jpg)
All the gaps will be filled with e\poxy prior to a filler coat, sanding, and the inevitable fiberglass/resin part, but first, planking! I will try to keep this updated as i go, but progress is... leisurly right now, until the weather allows me to get out the planer and buzz some cedar stock down to size.
Questions/comments/advice most welcome, especially the last part.
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For a first first build, you are doing a terrific job of it. I particularly like the way you have done the area around the prop, that always difficult to do - well done.
I would suggest you cut out a small corner section on each frame where it meets the keel just so that if you did get any water in her, it doesnt get locked behind each frame - make it easier to get it out again.
Just a little thing, but its best to remove the bar code! From experience I have found that leaving it on too long makes it really hard to remove and then it leaves a sticky residue behind.
Dont worry about the dent - filler will take that out.
Well done and keep the pics coming.
Ian
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Thanks Boatmadman!
The barcode is actually printed onto the stock... i can't remove it, even with sanding. I will go in and try to put drainage notches or holes in the frames.
I forgot to mention, the centre section, having a constant cross-section bow to stern, will be a U-shaped hardwood box that will free flood. That should make it easier
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Good idea for the centre section, just make sure you fit plenty of baffles lengthwise as well as crosswise to minimise the free surface effect - see what I did on Blue Marlin build.
I wouldnt open the whole centre section to free flooding - it might be too much. I would consider having free flood tanks either side of the keel to keep the weight towards the centre, and leave sections at the sides as buoyancy, this will also significantly assist with stability. Again, my thread on the Blue Marlin shows the difficulties that can arise with weight v stability v buoyancy.
Its probably better to have free flood provide something like 75 - 80% of required ballast, then you can trim off with lead. Also, you need to consider the weight of the rest of the build materials, hardware and batteries etc before deciding on your free flood quantities.
Ian
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Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to post some sketches soon, make sure i get feedback from those more experienced.
I might as well ask here: how does one put a bow thruster in a planked hull? I see you put one in on your Marlin, did you add it after the hull was fiberglassed?
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I cut the holes for the thruster before glassing, this allowed resin to get to the cut edges of the planks, then fitted the thruster later, sealing it externally with car body filler and internally with epoxy.
Ian
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I look forward to more pictures of your build. Very nice so far :-))
Ron.
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Nice looking build, well done! I haven't seen many lakers built. Are you going to make the three sections separable for ease of transport?
I like your idea of the flooded center section. A friend of mine built a barge with the flooded technique. It works very well. A portion of the underside of the barge is left open. The top of the open portion has a layer of blue Styrofoam to create a buoyancy level. The bottom of the compartment is open to the water. When the barge is lifted from the water, the water drains freely from the barge significantly reducing the weight. The vessel won't go any lower than the layer of blue Styrofoam. The whole barge comes out quite stable and handles easily. The barge, in this case is 8 feet long. I can post a drawing of the concept if you're interested. Meanwhile the attached photo shows the barge in action.
John
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that dent, dont worry about it, especially as its below the waterline and wont be noticable, and after all, it is a working boat so would be covered in dents from where tugs have thumped it.
Even My Nord Icelandia isn't perfect, this is her just after initial painting, notce the dent on the hull where a frame is. I could have filled it in, but instead chose to leave it, and it, along with the weatherig dont look too bad.
looking good though :) :-))
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Hi your laker is looking good so far here is a web site that can give u alot of info on building lakers
http://www.greatlakesmodeling.com/
the web maters does a step by step of the ones he owns he did his in 1/78 scale which makes then about 12 feet long
keep up the good work and post some more pics soon
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Hello again,
I was going to take some photos today but i can't seem to find the tripod. On the bright side, the rest of the planking was ordered and will be here soon. The cedar will not plane down to a sixteenth without splintering all over the place, doensn't plane very well when placed on the hull and is too thick as-is to bend to the complex curves im starting to get into. I can use it for much of the simple bow section but i decided to do the job right and ask a family member away on vacation to pick up some basswood for me.
I do have some sketches to show. The first is the center section idea, as suggested by Boatmadman and Oldiron (the hull will be permanently bolted together, btw, saves me having to worry about wear and tear on the joints, but also means i have to save weight)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/floodchamber.jpg)
I was thinking by shrinking the size of the hold, as suggested, i could run electrical bits in the dry portions and put in foam for extra buoyancy.
The other main problem i came across was making a rudder that could be taken out of the way to access the prop. I want to permanently screw the brass bottom bracket in place, so i thought of turning down part of a 3/16 brass rod to fit into square stock which would itself slide through the circular rudder tube, then sliding that into the next largest size square stock. The larger stock would form part of the rudder itself and have a 'nub' on the bottom that fit into a socket
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/rudder.jpg)
This way, the whole assembly locks together with no slipping, the rudder shaft can be lifted out easily and the rudder will fall to the side. I don't think it would come out under any conditions on the water because that would require the entire shaft to move over three inches straight up.
Thanks for all the feedback and kind comments, and i promise to find the tripod ASAP. More planking was done, i tested out some putties and i made the basic forward superstructure in the meantime.
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just playing devils advocate here,
but would the foam not retain water content making it both heavy and prone to rotting the timber from the inside??? <:(
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The foam part wouldn't get wet.... i hope. The center section would be the only part that flooded.
The foam is more of an insurance policy, should the bolts, glue and fiberglass fail and the middle portion separate from either bow or stern. Absolute worst-case scenario, but if it did happen, i'd rather not have it drag down the part it's attached to.
Forgot to mention, my poor tablet skills aside, the walls of the flood chamber would be plywood, epoxied. the foam would fit between the outer hull and the inner walls in a dry space.
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just playing devils advocate here,
but would the foam not retain water content making it both heavy and prone to rotting the timber from the inside??? <:(
No, the pink and blue foam is too dense to absorb water to any significant degree. I've used it myself and the amount of water absorption is negligible.
John
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ZZ56, where abouts in Ontario are you located?
John
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Really nice - I love the "hull on the carpet" stage of boat building! :-))
Andy
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if it really worries you, a layer of styrene can be put in as a water barrier, very much like a DPC on a house
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I would strongly recommend running your electrical cables in a length of plastic conduit and use connectors at each end to enable strip down. This way you can seal the two ends of the conduit with silicone sealant and be sure that it is watertight.
Ian
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ZZ56, where abouts in Ontario are you located?
John
Sudbury, now. Was in Toronto for college.
Found the tripod again.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1251.jpg)
cut out a hatch to do work inside when it's all planked. will make the hole in the deck fit the rear superstructure.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1252.jpg)
Made the basic shapes of the pilothouse. It's self-designed but i want it to look right and be to scale, so there was a lot of staring at photos before i put these together
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1256.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1254.jpg)
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I would strongly recommend running your electrical cables in a length of plastic conduit and use connectors at each end to enable strip down. This way you can seal the two ends of the conduit with silicone sealant and be sure that it is watertight.
Ian
I will do just that, then. I have a large piece of copper pipe from when my dad got the water tank replaced, woudl that work too?
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That will do the job just as well, Forgot to say, add a couple of spare lengths of cable when you make it up - you never know! Its better looking at them that for them!
Ian
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With regard to the picture of the barge and my suggestion on using Styrofoam as a flotation assistance, I've put together a sketch of how that barge is constructed inside. It appears you've put the Styrofoam vertically inside your water space. I'm wondering if that may not give you too much flotation. The barge is constructed so the Styrofoam is horizontal below the upper deck of the barge. This is the limit the barge will settle in the water. The flotation level is consistent and stable. No pumps are required to put water into the compartments or remove it. Gravity looks after everything. Indeed, there is only one large water compartment below the deck. The wood areas are coated in fiberglass resin to seal against water intrusion.
John
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Further to my comments about a cable conduit, if you can hide it ok, it would be better if you could run it on or just under the main deck. This would remove the need to penetrate the watertight bulkheads below the waterline and the resulting sealing issues.
Ian
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:-)) :-)) :-)) Your hull planking. Very neat job.
Incidentally, why run anything electrical along the hull? Wouldn't all the R/C & power gubbins be ok in the aft section?
Andy
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Its better looking at them than for them!
Haven't heard that one for a good few years, still holds true though :-))
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I have a number of photos of the William A. Irvin that I took in Duluth last year. There are various deck and fittings shots, stateroom, and wheel house interior shots. If you're interested I can post them here, or send me a PM and I can send them to you directly.
John
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I have a number of photos of the William A. Irvin that I took in Duluth last year. There are various deck and fittings shots, stateroom, and wheel house interior shots. If you're interested I can post them here, or send me a PM and I can send them to you directly.
John
Thanks! Could you post some of the deck fittings? The plans i have show positions but not details of the fittings.
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William A.Irvin photos:
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fantail:
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these winches are just in front of the aft deck house:
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wheel house interior, and walkway along side the aft deck house:
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telescoping hatch cover and stack:
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Thanks so much. The winch details are especially helpful; when it comes time, i'll have two mooring winches to make for the spar deck
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Here are a few more pics of winches from Port Colborne scrap yard. This yard, at the head of the of the Welland Canal, scraps lakers. They have a tremendous collection of stuff, all for sale.
John
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steam winches:
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Can't wait to be working on the detail fittings. That's the easiest part- no power tools or sawhorses needed.
Right now i just got the last of the wood i'll need for planking, so i can finish that. And i made a rudder that can be removed without disturbing the bottom bracket.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1259.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1260.jpg)
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Looking very nice with some neat frame work and planking.
More updates and photos soon please?
Ron.
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Updates and photos soon- working on the midsection now, which is a rather 'boring' looking thing, so i will take photos when it's all done before the decks go on. Also spent a long time fiddling with the driveshaft, but at least it seems to work smoothly and quietly.
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zz56........that is a wonderful and very "nostalgic" model .'as a kid, living in the UK I was always fascinated by these long and graceful vessels.
She will look beautiful when finished(as the workmanship does now).
Have you considered pulling a GRP mould and mouldings from her before you start adding rudder stock and gear............I'm sure there would be a market for them..me for one.
Neil. :-)) :-)) O0 O0 O0
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Hi Neil.
I did think about it but honestly, I've never touched fiberglass before, and i don't know anyone skilled at mouldmaking near enough to me. I'd end up dropping a pile of
I won't leave you empty-handed, though. If you wish to build one yourself, you should look at the Great Lakes Marine Archive (http://www.greatlakesmodeling.com/products/canadian_boat_plans.html), which is a one-man operation that has actual plans for hundreds of boats. Dave runs a 'non-profit' organization and only charges for the printing and postage costs. He has multiple sheets for most of the ships on the list and can print any combination of them off for you. Now that it's sailing season it might take him a little while to respond.
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oops- should read 'dropping a pile of money on supplies only to botch it up :c'
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Hi Neil.
I did think about it but honestly, I've never touched fiberglass before, and i don't know anyone skilled at mouldmaking near enough to me. I'd end up dropping a pile of
If you are interested in doing a fiberglass hull(s), a friend of mine, here, does molds for model boats and can make you one if you're interested. As far as his skill, you won't find better anywhere. Contact me via PM if you're interested and I'll put you in touch.
John
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thanks to both of you......she really is a beauty. neil. :-))
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I have sent off to Dave Benedet for 1/192 plans for CSL Saguenay. Was talking to a friend who sailed on her during summer break (2) from school so was quizzing him for info. One thing I noticed on your build of the stern was the prop. I believe (?) that the lakers had 4 bladed props. Nice job on the planking.
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Yup, i think 99% of them had four-bladers. I'll have to find one. Problem is, i went for a 3/16" shaft for a Dumas prop, but all the four-bladers i've seen are European and metric :(
minor update for now. Forecast is clear tomorrow, means i can glue up the center section and rout the bottom radii outside. A few more planks in the bow and stern and then it's time for fiberglassing. I think someone asked before about disassembly- maybe when i'm more experienced. This one is getting permanently glued and bolted together.
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oops, forgot pics :embarrassed:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1263.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1261.jpg)
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Hi there
First may I say, Congratulations on a superb build ZZ56 :-))
May I make one suggestion? You could find it is best to give the hull one coating of polyester resin with the correct amount of hardener mixed first allowing this coating to dry. This coating of resin will soak in to all the gaps between the planks and seal them for you. After this coating has dried, if you lightly sand down then look for any hollows in the planking, this then can be filled with car body filler and then smoothed flush.
When you are happy with the finish, proceed in giving the hull another coat of resin/hardener mix - with a layer of tissue matting added. When this has all dried, you could then give a final coating of pure resin with hardener mixed. This will give you a workable surface to produce a good finish on the exterior of your hull through sanding.
The other thing is as well, with giving the hull a coating of resin/hardener mix first off, it will also harden the balsa blocks at the stern thus preventing too much being sanded off these easily.
Hope this helps my friend - carry on with your build - very enjoyable read :-)) :-))
Aye
john
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If you're looking for four bladed props, you could try Lowell Briggs . They have quite a selection of four bladed props . I think they're in Halifax. They have quite a range of props and other marine fittings:
http://storesense4.megawebservers.com/lowellbriggshobbies_com/Categories.bok?category=Brass+prop&searchpath=1935446&start=129&total=430
John
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Thanks so much, John & John. I will put a coat of resin over the hull then, before i break out the putty.
These brass props, are they Raboesch? It says the thread count and the prop diameter, but not the shaft diameter. If they can be safely threaded on a 3/16'' shaft, i'll definately pick one up.
Filthy cheater that i am, definately going to order some bollards from that site. I can't even buy the materials to make them for that price.
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Thanks so much, John & John. I will put a coat of resin over the hull then, before i break out the putty.
These brass props, are they Raboesch? It says the thread count and the prop diameter, but not the shaft diameter. If they can be safely threaded on a 3/16'' shaft, i'll definately pick one up.
Filthy cheater that i am, definately going to order some bollards from that site. I can't even buy the materials to make them for that price.
Glad to be of assitance.
Yes, the Lowell Briggs props are from Raboesch. If you go to http://www.raboesch.com/ , and click on "catalogue 2" you'll find the specs on the props. About half way down are the for bladed props. The are listed for 1/8 and 3/16" shafts depending on the prop diameter.
John
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Although this is turning out to be a really good model I would never in my wildest dreams call the things "graceful". "Utilitarian", "Fit for Purpose", "Shape Follows Function" etc. etc. But "Graceful" she aint!. Just my opinion. BY.
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Have received my working plans (1/192 Scale). Nice job on the stern. Was wondering what size of ply you used for the frame work. Since my hull will be smaller than yours perhaps 3/16 ply would suffice.
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I used 1/4 inch standard lumberyard ply and it worked just fine, so i think 3/16 would be fine for your model.
Please post a build thread when you start, I for one would love to see your laker.
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Hi all,
Progress has been slowed down by the heat and bugs... gotta do all filling and sanding outdoors. So far i have the hull almost as smooth as i want it, just a few small pocks and bubbles to fill and then it's ready for glassing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/IMG_1271.jpg)
Speaking of glassing, I must admit i have little idea how to do it properly, and so i have a number of questions:
- can you reduce the amount of hardener added to prolong working time? Even with a helper i will need quite a bit of working time, considering the length of the model.
- can you use two sheets instead of one, overlapped slightly in the centre? Can you apply one sheet, let it cure, then apply the second?
- what is the best way to apply fiberglass and resin? Tin says to soak the cloth separately, then apply it to the surface and add excess resin. Building demos here seem to involve laying the cloth on the hull and painting resin overtop. Is there a right and wrong way?
Thanks for all the help so far, i hope i can do ballasting trials in a few weeks, if the heat hasn't boiled off every lake in the vicinity.
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Hi all,
Progress has been slowed down by the heat and bugs... gotta do all filling and sanding outdoors. So far i have the hull almost as smooth as i want it, just a few small pocks and bubbles to fill and then it's ready for glassing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/IMG_1271.jpg)
Speaking of glassing, I must admit i have little idea how to do it properly, and so i have a number of questions:
- can you reduce the amount of hardener added to prolong working time? Even with a helper i will need quite a bit of working time, considering the length of the model.
- can you use two sheets instead of one, overlapped slightly in the centre? Can you apply one sheet, let it cure, then apply the second?
- what is the best way to apply fiberglass and resin? Tin says to soak the cloth separately, then apply it to the surface and add excess resin. Building demos here seem to involve laying the cloth on the hull and painting resin overtop. Is there a right and wrong way?
Thanks for all the help so far, i hope i can do ballasting trials in a few weeks, if the heat hasn't boiled off every lake in the vicinity.
The build is looking good
1) You are playing it doggey trying to alter the setting time with less hardner. It will work to an extent, however, you run the risk of it not setting at all. In your case, only mix up enough resin to do a third or a quarter of the hull. Start at one end and work to the other. Don't wait for one section to fully harden before going to the next. When you're done with one batch, mix the next and move along. You can over lap the resin as you go. It will be helpful to have someone else to assist you on this too.
2) Yes you can use multiple sheets of glass fibre. However, you could do it in one. Place the hull upside down, cut the glass cloth to the size to fit the hull. Place it over the hull, notching it at the bow and stern so you don't get any bunching. Place it over the hull in the correct position. Use cyano to hold it down at spots along the edges. Mix you resin and start at the keel and work downward to the edges of the hull.
3) Don't soak the cloth separately. You'll never get it on if you do and end up with a small mass of resin/cloth that you'll never do anything with. Go to Canadian Tire paint section and buy one (or more) of the cheap small foam rollers. The throw away kind. Mix your resin in a small container ( I find a small plastic Yogurt container works well) and pour a strip of resin along the keel, starting at the bow, for instance. Using the roller, starting at the keel, roll the resin into the cloth moving the roller from the keel down word. Don't apply a lot of pressure or you'll draw and drag the cloth and get your self into an awkward situation. Work from the keel down both sides more or less equally. The roller smooths out the resin requiring less sanding afterward and creates less drag on the cloth reducing the tendency for it to slide around. It also works better than a brush to remove air bubbles without disturbing the remainder of the cloth.
Pay special attention to the air bubbles. Roll them down to the edge of the hull traveling in the same direction. Imagine trying to remove an air bubble when you're wall papering. Same thing.
I use Canadian Tires fiberglass resin from the body shop section. Works great. The small tin will go along way.
When the exterior is done, resin coat, only , the interior too. A cheap paint brush works well for this. Put a little extra in the bow when you're done "painting the interior of the hull, then stand the hull on end, bow down, and let the lot set. This will make the bow section much stronger and reduce the damaging effects if you run into something while running.
If you have any more questions, send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. We can talk about it that way.
John
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I don't think John's said anything I wouldn't.
I would recommend, however - depending on your weather - doing the fibreglassing in the early morning or in the evening. Hot ambient temperature speeds up the setting time.
Do follow the mixing instructions - reducing the amount of hardener could definitely lead to non-setting of the resin. I have been there! :embarrassed:
As a first-timer, while you could lay the cloth in one piece (especially with assistance) you will almost certainly find it easier to do it in segments, overlapped by an inch or so. A sanding later will remove any raised overlap.
I'm not sure I'd recommend yoghurt pots - I've melted a few in the past. But maybe your pots are different?
You might want to buy some disposable gloves. Resin and glass fibre is possibly the most horrible, sticky nastiness known to man (speaks Andy, having cleaned a kitten's litter tray this morning) don't feel you've messed up while working on your pristine wooden gorgeousness. It will come right in the end!
Speed, a positive attitude, and methodical approach is essential. :}
Good luck!
Andy
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Resin and glass fibre is possibly the most horrible, sticky nastiness known to man
Never changed a newborn baby then? A mixture of toxic waste and velcro... {-)
Lance
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I would add just one thing, its well worth having a practise run on some scrap wood just to get used to handling the stuff and the process you need to work it, and you will get a feel for the pot life, ie how long you have to work a batch before it starts to go off.
Ian
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Never changed a newborn baby then? A mixture of toxic waste and velcro... {-)
Hi Lance, I have, on many occasions. But at least, with nappies, you can hose yourself down afterwards. {-)
Andy
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I don't think John's said anything I wouldn't.
I'm not sure I'd recommend yoghurt pots - I've melted a few in the past. But maybe your pots are different?
Speed, a positive attitude, and methodical approach is essential. :}
Good luck!
Andy
I agree with your comments Andy. Interesting about the yogurt pots, as an aside. I've got one I've used a number of times. It hasn't touched the plastic, in fact it I can remove the set resin from it easily, in one piece, before I prep the next batch. Would be interesting to hear from a plastics expert what the differences in the plastics are.
John
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Thanks for the fast advice!
The resin I'm using is 3M polyester that i got at a local Home Hardware. I already used some to seal the outside and inside of each planks, and according to their mixing ratios, i found it becomes unworkable and gels after about four or five minutes. That's at the recommended twelve drops per ounce. I asked my dad (chemistry teacher) and he suggested reducing that to about 9 drops to extend the time. However, if it's best not to alter that, I'll use the batch method (sounds easier anyways)
The reason i asked about using two pieces of glasscloth is that the local autobody store only seems to sell prepackaged pieces that are 3' by 44". I'd need to cut them in half to get the right sizes.
As for yogurt cups, got plenty of those and they seem to withstand all sorts of glues including epoxy. I think they're made from butyrate, similar to Rubbermaid bins.
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Sounds like you're off an running. When you get the glass cloth, get the finest grade you can. It'll make a nicer job and mean less sanding in the end.
John
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Go to www.airfieldmodels.com then to section on How to - Finishing. Although it deals with aircraft I found it very helpful in dealing with the laying of fiberglass. Also check out your Hobby Shop for Glass cloth for aircraft as it is lighter than your car dealers supplies, and Finishing Resin as it is easier to work with.Great looking hull. %)
granpal
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Another small update - flotation trials today!
Well thankfully she isn't sitting on top of the water, but bearing down on her still felt like pushing against concrete. Time to cut some ply and gussets for a free-flood chamber, and put lots of foam in it as Oldiron suggested to make sure she doesn't ride too low. Always better to have reserve buoyancy.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/IMG_1274.jpg)
In addition, a few more layers of epoxy and sanding to get her hull nice and level.
EDIT: for the curious, the reason i'm not using standard removeable solid ballast is that i want the spar deck to have as few large holes as possible, and due to the design of the hatches on lake freighters, i'd have to make a removeable deck section. The flood chamber will be slightly smaller than 5 3/8 by 22 by 4 inches, so 440 cubic inches of water, minus the foam and baffles. And before i ever open it to the water, i'll fill it by hand and see if it makes the model float too low in the water.
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oldiron...the table below confirms a cubic inch of H2O is 0.0164 kg..so 440 = 7.26 kg only...is this in line with your design thoughts?.......Derek :-X
Pounds Grams Kilograms
Cubic cm. 0.002205 1 0.001
Cubic inch 0.036127 16.387064 0.0163871
Liter 2.204684 1000.028 1.000028
Gallon 8.345404 3785.4118 3.7854118
Cubic foot 62.42796 28316.847 28.316847
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Hmm, that's less than i thought. Would actually be less than that, 220, as that's a full chamber and she would only settle down halfway. If i increase it to 30 inches long, it goes up to 322 cubic inches and 11 pounds.
Thanks for that Derek, I'll have to figure out what combination of ballast and water i can use so that i get minimum 'handling weight'. Bloody thing's already hard to get through doors. Now i see why you guys all build short tugs!
Cheers
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Your vessel is coming along nicely.
As to the amount of foam to put into the hull. I think perhaps its being made more complicated than needs be. If you are to consider the hold portion of the hull that is to be flooded, it alone will float to a depth equal to an amount of water it displaces even when flooded. Being Styrofoam, even with a resin covering, its still going to float with its deck above water when water occupies the full hold area. What you are trying to maintain is your desired free board level on that section.
The fore and aft sections will float high in the water as they do now, because you will have two water tight compartments with , relatively little weight in them. As in any vessel, these will have to be weighted to bring them down to your desired level. Since the hold section is relatively speaking neutral in the water. Your vessel depth is determined by the amount of ballast placed in the fore and aft sections. The Styrofoam in the center section will ensure that the desired free board is maintained and provide some flotation support to the center section.
The drawing below illustrates how I would handle the build in terms of water into the hold section of the hull. If built this way, simply weight the fore and aft sections to taste.
John
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ZZ56....sorry for the mis-name. :embarrassed: ...it is also important to understand the positioning of the balllast....so .....tell the members .......Derek O0
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I would recommend putting the foam ballast alongside the sides of the boat (inside of course), this will give lateral stability.
At the moment you have for/aft stability produced by the buoyancy in the bows and stern, but very little side to side.
Ian
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Vertical baffles to reduce the slosh/free-surface effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect) in such a large tank would be a good idea, too.
Andy
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Vertical baffles to reduce the slosh/free-surface effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect) in such a large tank would be a good idea, too.
Andy
If he puts the styrofoam at his desired free board level, he won't have an slosh effect as the hold will fill with water. Granted a small amount of air will be trapped in the top, but this can be eliminated through the use of scale vents.
John
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I would recommend putting the foam ballast alongside the sides of the boat (inside of course), this will give lateral stability.
At the moment you have for/aft stability produced by the buoyancy in the bows and stern, but very little side to side.
Ian
If the foam is placed along the sides, it will encourage the vessel to ride higher in the water. rather than increasing stability it will reduce it. Try placing a slab of foam vertically in the water and see what happens. It attempts to move to a more stable horizontal plane. It is this horizontal plane I've recommended for this vessel.
If you look at the barge in the earlier part of this thread, it was done exactly this way and is very stable in the water and never goes lower than what you see in the picture.
John
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Hi, sorry for the lack of updates. A lot of sanding leaves little progress to show. only two more bulwarks to fair in and a few more pinholes to fill!
Within a few days i should be ready for paint! Ordered a 2.4gHz radio from overseas, rather than try to convert the radio my dad gave me to 75mHz. Besides, it's a four channel unit, might as well save it for when i've got four channels worth of functions.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1281.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1282.jpg)
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Lookin good. have you decided on the name yet?
John
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Nope. I'm thinking either after a friend of the family (owner of a trucking firm) or 'Thunder Cape'
I put in the flood chamber just as you said and it works well, still a lot of buoyancy though. I will probably make up some shot-filled ply boxes for ballast. Can you buy shot without a firearms license here in Canada?
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Nope. I'm thinking either after a friend of the family (owner of a trucking firm) or 'Thunder Cape'
I put in the flood chamber just as you said and it works well, still a lot of buoyancy though. I will probably make up some shot-filled ply boxes for ballast. Can you buy shot without a firearms license here in Canada?
Glad the chamber is working for you. As to the shot, I've had no problem buying shot without a firearms license. Since there is no gun powder in it, just a bag full of lead balls, I guess they don't see it as a problem, which they shouldn't. The store owner doesn't know me, so that wasn't an issue.
When you put the shot in the boxes, put the shot in plastic seal able sandwich bags first, then put the filled bags into the boxes. I tried this on my Neddy build and it worked superb. That way you can easily remove the bags and add or delete shot as required to trim the ballast.
good luck, its going well.
John
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Try a fishing tackle shop - anglers use split shot to weigh their lines down. Not as cheap though.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1292.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1293.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1288.jpg)
just some paint for today, I can't find one of my couplings for the Dumas dogbone connector, might have to order a double-kardan replacement. I hate when that happens.
also, the biggest dang beetle i've ever seen landed on my boat while i was photgraphing it. I was going to pick it up when i saw the size of the jaws it had. It was easily 3 inches long
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1290.jpg)
also, i finally chose a name for it. Going to name it after my grandfather on my dad's side. Is there a way for me to change the title of my thread to reflect that?
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The vessel's looking good.
That beetle looks like the remake of one of those 50's Japanese horror/monster movies.........."Godzilla Strikes Back". {-)
John
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Just a daft question, why do Great lake bulk ships tend to have the bridges forward?
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Just a daft question, why do Great lake bulk ships tend to have the bridges forward?
Isn't it odd that daft questions are often the ones that many of us don't know the answer to. I had always assumed visibility but then why are Great Lakes boats so unique in this respect?
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1290.jpg)
:o
Good looking model - shame about the wildlife!
Andy quickly striking through "Ontario" as a holiday destination.
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I suspect the bridge forward is as much an evolution thing as anything. When lakers, as we know them began in the late 1800s they were much shorter vessels being restricted by canal and lock size. Also, since these vessels traditionally had to negotiate very tight harbours and numerous small locks, many times without tug assist, I suspect the navigation was much easier with the wheel house forward. On thee type of vessels you'll notice what appears to be a bow sprit. Its actually a steering pole. Since most of the vessel is behind the wheelhouse its hard to determine the overall position of the vessel from a steering point of view. This pole gives you a reference as tot he direction the overall vessel is pointing when steering it.
When seaway size vessels came about with the opening of the St.Lawrence Seaway this deign continued for a few years more in construction. Many old canalers were lengthened to Seaway Size (730') after the opening of the Seaway. From the mid sixties on vessels were constructed in the traditional pilot house aft configuration. Additionally, except for a few thousand footers on the upper lakes, new construction was also design for salt use.
There aren't many traditional lakers left running anymore, most that run on the lakes are salt water compatible.
I'm sure you've all seen the video on YouTube of the ship loosing its pilot house while going under a bridge. That happened not for south f me in the Welland Canal. The ship was one of Paterson Shippings vessels later built in the bridge aft configuration. That vessel was scrapped by the way.
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:o
Good looking model - shame about the wildlife!
Andy quickly striking through "Ontario" as a holiday destination.
If a 3" beetle bothers you about visiting Ontario, you won't want to see the rest of the creatures we have around. Wolves, coyotes, bears, Missisaaugii Rattlers(in the right places)..........and I won't even go into the all night parties.
John
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also, i finally chose a name for it. Going to name it after my grandfather on my dad's side. Is there a way for me to change the title of my thread to reflect that?
Sure, what do you want me to rename the topic too?
(Almost missed this request...)
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Sure, what do you want me to rename the topic too?
(Almost missed this request...)
Could you just delete the ''not named yet part'' and insert ''G.J. Valiquette''? Thanks!
I think that beetle is one of those invasive Asian species that eat up hardwood... so if it can bite into oak, im not picking it up!
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I think that beetle is one of those invasive Asian species that eat up hardwood... so if it can bite into oak, im not picking it up!
A rolled up copy of the Sudbury Times works really well, particularly if its what you think it is.
John
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:-)
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Certainly looks close to an Asian Long Horn Beetle:
John
From City of Toronto Parks web site:
Adult Beetles: Identification
1) Body
* glossy black with from 0 to 20 irregular white spots on the back (giving rise to the beetle's Chinese name, translated as "starry sky beetle")
* bullet-shaped
* length - 1.7 to 3.5 centimetres, with females generally larger than males
2) Antennae (there are two antennae)
* long (1 to 1.3 times the body length in females, 2.5 times the body length in males)
* 11 black segments with whitish-blue base
3) Legs (there are six legs)
* black with bluish-white tinge
USDA, Forest Service
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Couple pics from yesterday of the details on the wheelhouse and deck
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1286.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1287.jpg)
Oh, and thanks for the change, Martin!
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more work done, more to go!
I fried the speed controller due to my own stupidity. Always check that exposed wires are wrapped up and not crossed! In defiance, i used an old battery pack and connected the motor right to the battery, and threw it in the lake. Ran well, but needs an upgrade to 12v and more ballast. I'll put the two 6v batteries up front and a single six-pound 12v battery in the rear, plus a few capsules of lead.
The hatch covers are going by faster than I'd thought.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1295.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1296.jpg)
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Looking good. What size motor are you using? I have a problem as with the plans for a 1:192 hull, there is not much room from the top of the keel to the center line of the prop shaft. Just received my wood from Great Hobbies in PEI and will start cutting soon. :-))
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I am using an old 'mystery motor' my dad gave me. If you need a small motor, try Radio Shack or a local surplus/electronics store. You can always make a cut-out in the keel to accommodate the motor.
Haven't updated in a long time because i've been doing a lot of 'invisible' work like soldering up the electrical bits and making door handles and such. I have some pics and video of her on the water, but they are on my dad's cameras and he is away for a few days.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/CRW_0257.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/CRW_0255.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/CRW_0254.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/CRW_0253.jpg)
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A video from the latest run. Weather was beautiful and there was nobody else at the lake.
http://www.vimeo.com/6629458 (http://www.vimeo.com/6629458)
Is the vid a little choppy at the beginning or is it just me?
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Runs nicely. Looks like it handles pretty good for a long vessel. Nice work. Are you going to ballast it more? I was wondering what the stability will be like in rougher water.
John
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Stability is excellent, the real problem is windage. In a stiff breeze, turning into the wind takes a lot of room, and turning away from the wind can be done almost on the spot. Also, she's so stable lengthwise that without enough ballast in the stern, her propeller gets exposed in the trough of tiny waves and makes an annoying 'shussh' sound.
I will be adding more ballast to the bows to bring them level with the stern. Other than that, and a tendency to go to port when reversing, she handles amazingly well and is fun to drive.
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Interesting video, the bow mounted bridge really emphasizes how much the back swings around in turns.
... man, she a big b--------er! :-))
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Interesting video, the bow mounted bridge really emphasizes how much the back swings around in turns.
... man, she a big b--------er! :-))
Imagine what it was like to trying to navigate those vessels on the lakes before the days of bow thrusters, especially during a storm.
John
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more pics.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1303.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1304.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1305.jpg)
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for such a long thin boat, it actually handles remarkably well.
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She is looking good and having worked in down town Cleveland on the east bank of the Cuyahoga River (AKA Crooked river, Burning River) I have seen many lakers go by. Are you going to paint it in any known company colors? like Cleveland Clff ect.. keep up the good work.
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Thanks for the compliments Cadman. I'm painting it in 'traditional' Canadian colours (black hull and white superstructure) with a red and black funnel. Since much of the model is 'freelance' I want to put side lettering on for the fictional 'Current River Company' as well as some sort of C logo on the stack
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1336.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1340.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/DestructorBot/laker-hull/IMG_1338.jpg)
Does anyone know where i could find 1/96 or 1/100 scale railing besides Plastruct? I bought some labeled Model Builder's Supply but it was the only package the hobby store had.
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Hi there
that is a lovely model you have made. You have captured the unique style of the great lakes boat in your model .
John
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Just watch a program about the Great lakes ships..
Mighty Ships - M/V Paul R Tregurtha The Paul R Tregurtha, which is the largest vessel serving the North American Great Lakes
QUEST 10:00pm-11:00pm (1 hour ) Wed 11 Nov
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Anything the show might not have mentioned can be found on the Boatnerd page: Paul R. Tregurtha (http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/prtrgrth.htm).
Boatnerd has been a huge help for me, with tons of photo galleries and historical overviews of lake freighters, and it also has good galleries for fishing vessels, tugs, ferries, and ocean freighters involved with the great lakes.
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Ck out your local Home Depot store or a local welding supply house and get a small Roll MIG wire look at G-.0048 I think that MIG wire it may be the scale you need.. a small roll will coast some where around 10 to 15 dollars I think.. Ship looks great I hope, I was some small help to you and good luck with build, hope to see some photos of her in the water.. again great job :-))
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Hi,
Why not try chichen wire. it comes in loads of size's.
Here are some pic's of some fellow members boats that have used chicken wire for railings.
Hope This helps.
Daz
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another pic
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1 more
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and the last
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If you are looking for railings for your laker, try Bluejacket in Maine. They have 1/8 scale two rail etched brass rail. You can download their catalogue. I use them quite often and their service is supurb. :-)) :-)) I haven't started on my laker yet as am waiting for a prop shaft to arrive from the UK.
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Again it is looking good and if anyone or yourself are looking for a site to help with your laker's you mite want to try this one http://www.greatlakesmodeling.com it is a good site for tip on laker's both old and new good luck all :-))
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Hi Daz
Could you please tell me what model your last photo is.
Is it a stock kit, semi or scratch build?
Yours Aye
Ned
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Hi Ned,
The boat in qustion is the paciffic Banner she belongs to and was built by a fellow club mate.
She is a Scrath build from a plan "paciffic Buccanner" which you can get from marine modelling international plans servies, My mate in-larged the plan i forget to what scale but i could find out if you like?.If you have a look a our club web site you weill see lots of pic's of her.homepage.ntlworld.com/stuart.cox/hembc.htm (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stuart.cox/hembc.htm)
Hope this hels
Best Regards
Darren
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Hi Darren
Thanks for the info
Yours Aye
Ned
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Thanks for the suggestions, all. Those are some really neat models there Daz, I've seen the working crane ship on Youtube.
I will check out the chicken wire today, because I like the price point on that solution, but if I can't find wire that looks okay I'll go with the Bluejacket etched railings.