Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => DC Motors (Brushed) and Speed Controllers => Topic started by: tight-lines on May 25, 2009, 08:57:20 am
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hi guys,im new to the forum,but i have been looking at your site for ages,,so thaught id ask you a question,,,thanks
right i have 2 x viper marine 15,,,,,that i was going to controll 2 motors on a bait boat,,,im have spent alot of money on this boat,and my goal is to build the best bar none,,,some aspects that should make it the best are my low drain electronize motors,that will only pull up to 4 amp stalled and the,8 x 4000 mah,,11.1 v lipos,,but after getting everything to gether i have tried one of my motors and the viper 15 esc make a realy bad whine at low revs,,,,now i know that this has been posted before,but i relay dont have the option of keeping the whine noise this load as it supose to be quiet for sneaking my rigs out,,,and when i have them both running it will be like a cat on a hot tin roof,,,,but! i do like the way they work,,,,but the sound realy is not a option,,,,,any help on what to do or what esc's to get ,,thanks for any help,,,,,and i love the site lads
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A rheostat or bobs board type condrol works on dc or you can convert your esc output to dc with a low pass filter between the esc and motor.to stop the the vibration.
A filter needs two two 4 amp inductors per motor on the esc to motor leads and anyhing from 1 to 10 microfarad 63 volt in parallel stacked polyester capacitors across the motor terminals.
Some clever person or the Maplin counter staff will help you choose the right parts.
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hi,thanks for the reply!,,,and will these things elimanate that whine noise completely,or just help a bit,,,you mention two ways of doing this should i do both? or which one is better,,,i dont supose you could post i link to some parts as i dont have a clue at this stage,,,,thanks for the help,,,any one else with any views on this? :-)
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Welcome tightlines.
Right as I understand it you have two motors and two esc's. You want to run them quietly and as efficiently as possible. This is no problem. What you need to get is a P94 from ACtion Electronics. This is a little black box with two esc's and a mixer built into it. You can run your motors in any configuration you like and the mixer works beautifully and quietly. You will not be disappointed. Check it out here. I am just a very happy customer..
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/mixers.php
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hi thanks,i did want tank steering thougth,your right about these thougth,,wish i had got one now,well i do a bit,,
im stuck with two new viper 15's now thougth,,,,i dont doubt the guy that posted about putting things in between the motor and esc,,but as i know nothing about this,,,cananyone tell me more ?,,or if this will cure it or help?,,and are there any down sides to his ideas,,,eg fire! or very high curent draw,,,etc,
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A rheost control (http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=66_69&products_id=312) is a servo operated variable resistance between a battery and motor to regulate current and rpm.These were much more common in model boats when electronic circuits were expensive.They are a pain because the resistance range has to closely match the motor.You would get a 2 amp bobs board for example.They don't make a whine because they don't chop the motor current at audible frequency like the Viper esc.
If you scroll down to the fourth diagram in Paul Hills' site (http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/SpeedControl/SpeedControllersBody.html) you can see what an inductive filter does.It smoothes out the motor current so that it.doesn't give off the distinctive whistle.
Does the boat have to creep up quietly behind the fish?
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A rheost control (http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=66_69&products_id=312) is a servo operated variable resistance between a battery and motor to regulate current and rpm.These were much more common in model boats when electronic circuits were expensive.They are a pain because the resistance range has to closely match the motor.You would get a 2 amp bobs board for example.They don't make a whine because they don't chop the motor current at audible frequency like the Viper esc.
If you scroll down to the fourth diagram in Paul Hills' site (http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/SpeedControl/SpeedControllersBody.html) you can see what an inductive filter does.It smoothes out the motor current so that it.doesn't give off the distinctive whistle.
Does the boat have to creep up quietly behind the fish?
sounds sad i know ! but yes,,quiet is good
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A rheost control (http://www.dumasestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=66_69&products_id=312) is a servo operated variable resistance between a battery and motor to regulate current and rpm.These were much more common in model boats when electronic circuits were expensive.They are a pain because the resistance range has to closely match the motor.You would get a 2 amp bobs board for example.They don't make a whine because they don't chop the motor current at audible frequency like the Viper esc.
If you scroll down to the fourth diagram in Paul Hills' site (http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/SpeedControl/SpeedControllersBody.html) you can see what an inductive filter does.It smoothes out the motor current so that it.doesn't give off the distinctive whistle.
Does the boat have to creep up quietly behind the fish?
hi so if i want to keep my esc's do i just need to get one of these filters?,,,ive looked and looked at the 4rt diagram and read it all but its,well,well over my head,,,,i could do with some one showing me what i need to buy for the filter set up,and if it will work well in making the viper 15's quiet
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personally I would just sell the mtronics vipers on ebay and get a P94 A much better set up and less hassle
Oh just to let you know there has been a lot of grief with the mtronics set up's catching fire the Action products do not
Dont believe me then read this thread THIS is what happens to them,last week I was seting up for a friend a trawler and you guessed ti a brand new Mtronics 20 amp burnt it's self out on the bench!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16385.0
Stav
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Most modern ESCs work by pulsing the motor coils at a high frequency. This is exactly what happens with a loudspeaker, with exactly the same result - an audible tone. Some do it at a higher frequency than the human ear can respond to. I have no idea what the fish can hear - they might respond to higher frequencies than humans, they might not. The same "noisy ESC" when working a different motor, might well be quiet. The same can apply to the same motor mounted differently - a totally rigid arrangement will ensure that any sound energy generated by the motor will be transmitted to the hull structure, which then acts as a sound box.
Bobs boards have other downsides - they dissipate heat at anything other than flat out, and they are mechanical, with moving parts that need careful adjustment and are subject to wear.
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In one of my boats, i use a viper marine 15,never again because of the noise.
Another boat uses an action esc runs perfect and quiet
Another uses a cheap china esc runs perfect and quiet to (well the missus boat,cant hear it above her screaming {-))
Mark
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dont know what to do for the best now as im,unsure how to do the low pass and cant afford the p94 unit
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For those of use who have these noisy viper 15s, does anyone know what motor/battery combinations they are quiet with?
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hi,ive tried it with mfa motors and some outher 400 motors,id be hard pushed to find a motor ,i think thats quiet looking at these 2,or hearing them
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
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You would need a white stick and dog if you missed it.
Proteus
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
What action to you propse should be taken? {-) O0 {-) O0 {-) O0 {-) %% O0 %% %% :police: :police: :police:
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Hi
Umi must be new MMB smoking controller
Ps and it,s HOT
Timo2
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hi,thanks for the help guys!! :-)),,,,ive got my options down to 2 choices,,,action electroniks ,they were very helpfull,and knew there stuff,but said i might still get the noise,but there stuff is top quality,so many good reasons why i want there stuff,,,or electronize speed controlers,,i belive these are good too,would still get the noise but can change the freqency to try and get it a little better?,,,,
so its a case of wich one i take a gamble on?
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action electronics,or electronize speed controlers, which one do i take a gamble on?
From my standing, only the electronize is the gamble...
Go 2.4ghz, no worries
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hi mate dont supose you could just give me some ideas about why it might be a gamble,or why it might help to choose2.4ghz,,,as im gona be parting with what little money i have this week,,,thanks
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2.4Ghz radio equipment accepts no interference, because the oscillating frequencys of everything in a boat is waaay lower than 2.4Ghz
Also, I have heard some not so satisfactory stories about electronize stuff.
The best ESC to get will be one of Dave's
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I have at least 6 Viper 15s in my various boats, and apart from a slight whine as the power is applied, they are extremely quiet in operation.
DickyD, as far as I can tell, some members are reporting problems with Viper ESCs, and others are saying they have found the ACTion gear to be good. I see no favouritism in that, merely calling it as they see it. The only commission the ACTion owners would get is the Forum member's discount Dave offers.
Peter.
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I have at least 6 Viper 15s in my various boats, and apart from a slight whine as the power is applied, they are extremely quiet in operation.
DickyD, as far as I can tell, some members are reporting problems with Viper ESCs, and others are saying they have found the ACTion gear to be good. I see no favouritism in that, merely calling it as they see it. The only commission the ACTion owners would get is the Forum member's discount Dave offers.
Peter.
discount,did i hear discount?--how long do you have to me a member for before you are allowed one?,,would come in handy that,,,
so am i right in thinking that 2.4 handset and reciver if used with my viper marine 15,would stop them making noise,
if so i bet there alot of money,,,i think im leaning towards actions stuff and its gona be either 2x esc or just get the p94 mixer,,i dont no why but i think that the mixer will be a bit more quiet,than there esc's,,,,bcos my old bait boat called a procat,had a mixer board and it was 100% silent,,,,,
please keep your views comming in ,bcos they are helping alot thanks
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I use 2.4 with viper and still get a whine,except at full throttle
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I use 2.4 with viper and still get a whine,except at full throttle
cheers,that rules that out for me then,its down to the other options not,,which is more quiet,,,
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
Very sorry Dicky but this comment is a bit naughty. You should know me better than that....I promote ACTion's gear because it is outstanding and the service is second to none. Never once have I heard a complaint about the equipment, which cannot be said for many others..
As for discount, ACTion do, I believe offer a 15% discount to ALL forum members.
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
Richard I sincerely hope you are not implying that i am on commission for promoting ACtion products how far away from the TRUTH can you get
Statement of fact
I DO NOT AND NEVER HAD ANY DISCOUNT OFF ACTION OR ANY OTHER SUPPLIER FOR RECCOMENDING THEIR PRODUCTS SO THERE
PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT
If I hear or see anything in print that I do well legal action WILL be taken against said person or persons I MEAN IT
Stav
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
As for discount, ACTion do, I believe offer a 15% discount to ALL forum members.
Think its only 5% Not 15
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Think its only 5% Not 15
Too darned right!
FLJ
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I think that's a bit far Stav... However I've seen loads of Dave's stuff, and everything I've seen is first rate, our club chairman has enough ACTion kit to sink a ship, all works perfectly. I have one of his sound systems in my Hellcat, works flawlessly, can hear it from half a lake away...
And from my experiences so far with ACTion kit, I can assure you that in my Sylvia there will be a P94 mixer and as many of his other systems I can afford.
Top notch kit all of it.
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Opps sorry Dave.......I suppose thats the commission gone west then!! {-) {-) {-)
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hi guys dont get mad at each other,lifes too short,,do action do any cheaper mixers that can handel 5 amps per motor,,,
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Have a look at the website
under traders or a quick phone call
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
Very sorry Dicky but this comment is a bit naughty. You should know me better than that....I promote ACTion's gear because it is outstanding and the service is second to none. Never once have I heard a complaint about the equipment, which cannot be said for many others..
As for discount, ACTion do, I believe offer a 15% discount to ALL forum members.
You know me better than to think my remark was anything other than tongue in cheek Barry. :embarrassed:
By the way I didn't mention any names you know. ok2
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Has anyone other than me noticed that there appears to be a couple of forum members who appear to be working on commission with a well known manufacturer and retailer also on this forum ? {:-{.
Richard I sincerely hope you are not implying that i am on commission for promoting ACtion products how far away from the TRUTH can you get
Statement of fact
I DO NOT AND NEVER HAD ANY DISCOUNT OFF ACTION OR ANY OTHER SUPPLIER FOR RECCOMENDING THEIR PRODUCTS SO THERE
PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT
If I hear or see anything in print that I do well legal action WILL be taken against said person or persons I MEAN IT
Stav
Sorry Stavros but I don't think you were mentioned. ok2
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Could be me,but life goes on,just use what what works for us.
Everyone has their own preference,and who they use
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Come on, chaps! Like the man says, whatever floats your boat. It's a big world and a broad church - even in this narrow little corner of model boating. I once had occasion to speak to MTroniks' tecchie guy, Steve, on behalf of a customer. He's a good bloke and was really helpful - 'nuff said.
I've now spoken to Mr Tight Lines over the phone and I think he knows what the score is - at least enough to make up his own mind.
My undying thanks to the President ("P94/1") and the Chairman ("P94/2") of the ACTion Fan Club for their unfailing support, and perhaps a smudge of shame on Richard D ("P94/?") for shoving his tongue so far into his cheek that it became all but history. He's since PM'd me and we're friends again (well, maybe a truce............. again.... ;) )
Lest there be any doubt, no-one gets more than our standard 5% Mayhem members' discount without doing a hard day's work for it - like Bluebird helping me out for six hours on both days at South Shields when Liz wasn't there. Good on yer, marra. Oh - and Wombat pays nowt, but he does do a little work now and then..... :o :o
We don't pay commission to anyone at all, but we will continue to support the Mayhem Forum and its members.
Please continue to suit yourselves.
FLJ
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Thanks for the common sense approach chaps. I really don't want to lock a thread unecessary but any more flare ups of the type earlier and I'll have to.
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hi,please can the man that said he spoke to me,please tell me what he thinks once more will be quiet,as far as the esc,,,i think im gona go for the p94 after all this!! so can you just tell me if its gona be more quiet than the viper,i know your a fair man and wouldnt dream of saying anything about viper products being bad so i just want to know if you think yours is more quiet,,,,you can send me a pm if you want so no one will get mad,again about sponsors and stuff,if im happy im gona order soon when i get some money thanks,and thanks for every ones help,,,
my mind is going round and round with ideas for this build,but i just want to make sure i get the foundations right!
so please help me again with more ideas,,and questions,,ive still got a few!,,,but ill give you a rest b4 i ask some more,cheers
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the whine ISN't from the esc, it's from the motor
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Tight lines I haaev never had a whine from a motor since going Action
Stav
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I'm with Ghost, are you sure its the esc whining? It could be your set up, possiblly a tight spot on a prop, or the motor. I have had a number of vipers, and they have never whined, its always the motor or something else in the drive line. Justr a curious question, is a bait boat what it says on the tin? Just to get out off the bank and drop bait? If so, why are you using 2 motors as I would assume speed isnt an issue?, so you can cut down the running gear by 50% on one motor.
As you already have the vipers, ring them, they are UK, and will advise accordingly, before you go splashing out more cash with other makes of esc, which could result in the same problem as you might be diagnosing the fault wrongly. :-))
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hi,yeah it is just to drop bait and rigs,its a toy realy,but i want it to be the best toy,,,and the vipers have made the noise with out the propshaft conected and on diferent motors,and my mate braught his round and that whined too,so its defo the viper15's,,,,,,
and yeah it doesnt need to be fast,as such but needs to be not realy slow,,i think you lads that know what your doing would probably think of it as scale speed,or a model ship,or a small tug boat,as opose to the rpm monsters that are fast,,
the ideal set up for one is about 4000-9000 rpm depending on prop size but at a guess it would usualy be about 35ml 2 blade prop,,as thats what most the bait boat companys use,,,but i think i might try a 3 blade prop from reading you guys other posts,,
i dont know if im allowed to post a link to show a video of a bait boat running but if i am ,i can post one, if any of you guys want to help me with my final desighn,it would give you a idea,,ill post some links and if this is not allowed im sorry and i wont do it again and remove them,bcos i know that the fishing sites i go on wont allow links to the out side world :-))
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just go for it no probs with that on here
Stav
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heres the links incase anybody doesnt know what one is,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sAS3_aho_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TuL39coI8&feature=related,,,,,,
the second boat is just like the one im building,with the twin hull points at the front,,the boat in the second video use's bilge pumps,,these are quiet but amp hungry,so im gona use props,
as you can see the they both use a twin hull desighn,with two hoppers to drop bait,,
both basicly the same,,,,as us silly carp fisherman will be out in all weather,,,sleeping next to the lake waiting for the big fish,,,genral boat maintenence is not a option,so what gets sealed in know has to stay there,
one more for luck,,,this is a good video,bcos you can get a feel why the little noise is so important,noise scares the carp,when there feeding,,
link,,,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A77cvXre3XE&feature=related
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upto now i have the hull,two motors,a futaba skysport4 ty4f handset and reciver,two screaming :(( viper marine 15's, 2 futaba servos,
4 11.1v 4000 mah lipo's,with 4 more coming when i have the money,and i might get anougther 2 to make 10 when im out my low money situation,,,power switch ,all chargers for handset etc,lipo monitor,,,turnigy accucell-6 charge everything charger,,2x 12v 7.5 ah sla batterys,,,2x6v 7 ah sla batterys,,,and a folding solar pannel to charge my batterys
just need 2 prop shafts,2 prop blades,,and some none screaming esc
maybe two more motors,,bcos the ones i have i cant tell what they are,,but they draw 1.7 amps with my fingers holding the prop as hard as i can till i burn myself,to try and achive a working current,,they sound like quite high rpm on 6v,,,but i think they might work ok as they come from anougther bait boat,,,and they worked well in that,,,but i might strugel to get the old prop off bcos they fitted it realy strange and welded it to the motor spine?,,,did work well in the old boat thougth,,just wont fit my new one as its to short,,
probably more info than you wanted here lads,but i might as well put my cards on the table,and see if you can still give me ideas
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I am not a fisherman, however, I wonder if it is vibration in the water rather than noise audible to humans which is likely to disturb fish?
Roger in France
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- a totally rigid arrangement will ensure that any sound energy generated by the motor will be transmitted to the hull structure, which then acts as a sound box.
Mr Fisherman,I have just tried following Malcolm's hint 5 minutes ago.
How about you just unscrew the motor from its mount,hold it in your hand and throttle up as slowly as you can.
I won't tell you what happened when I tried that 5 minutes ago.
If you then want a remedy for the bait boat look no further than inside a cassette player.
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hi thanks,,i have try'd taking the motor out the boat and various motors,and the noise is being generated by the esc but comes out the motor at low revs ,it does go at full chat but when your trying to gently sneak about and manuver your boat under trees and stuff,its like some one
shot a cat,,,,i would use the old mixer board out my old bait boat bcos thats silent,but wont mix in reverse,and they have solderd the rubish atcoms reciver to the circuit board,and i would like to use the quality futuba stuff,ie handset and reciver,
the motors i have run fine and silent on the old mixer,but not on the viper,,,i wonder if action could alter that mixer for me that would be awsome!,,,,i bet they probably made it custom for the bait boat company seen as there the leaders in the mixing field?,,,
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Personally speaking as a fisherman and bait boat user i have never had a problem with noise.I must admit to what I do is quite simple really as I used to have a broadlands bait boat which was noisy,I used to drive the boat around the swim that I was fishing especially if there were carp in the swim and visible and leave them with the boat it is amazing to watch the carp go up to the boat and nudge it as they are very curious fish,as long as you have left them come to terms with the boat and it's noise they do not spook away.having worked in a fisherey and been in the water working after a short while the carp will come up to you and as long as you stand still they will nudge you which is quite funny really,I worked in a lake for over a week and allways had fish around me all the time.But of course it is a different matter when one is walking around a lake fish spotting cos as soon as they see you they are off like a rocket and not returning to that spot for hours or even days.
Stav
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i wonder if action could alter that mixer for me that would be awsome!,,,,i bet they probably made it custom for the bait boat company seen as there the leaders in the mixing field?,,,
No.
We don't modify P94 units for anyone except Subtech, who simply have a version with dual steering outputs.
Most of the bait boats for which we have sold these seem to use pumps instead of propellers.
To change the frequency would not only be unnecessary but would involve a total software re-write. That is not going to happen.
It's different by design.
It doesn't make motors whine.
End of subject.
FLJ
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calm down,i didnt mean change the frequancy,i ment change the one i got to steer in reverse ,bcos it goes backwards straight with no steer,and steers forwards ok,,,never mind im not trying to upset you ,,forget it,,,i understand what you must be saying,if you dont want the one we have dont bother,,,well there is a good chance i do yet,just looking at my options,,
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Been looking in on this with mild interest. Now, I am not a fisherman so don't know much about the subject, but looking at Stavros's comment got me thinking. I reckon fish are probably like a lot of other creatures and would get used to something moving very slowly and gently through the water and as Stav has pointed out, would be intruiged by it, especially after it has come to a standstill. Even if they could detect the noise, the fact they got a meal everytime they heard it and saw 'the thing' on the surface, might actually mean they would associate the noise with food and at some point, may actually follow the thing around, provided it was a slow and gentle movement across the lake.
With most creatures, slow and gentle is the name of the game, no sudden noise or movement makes them see most things as a 'safe bet' and they will get used to a continued presence... especially if it feeds them.
We have had fish follow our submarines around and actually go and inspect them when they became static underwater. I personally use a Viper SSR driving two motors on 50mm props in my sub and it produces audible oscillations, but the fish don't seem to care because the sub does not produce any kind of sharp or disturbing movements or noises.
Maybe you should be looking at larger slow turning props as they cause little disturbance and don't worry about doing anything in a hurry when dealing with these creatures. I do know one thing, they are basically driven by food, and are a bit smarter than most people give them credit for.
Chris
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thanks you two,might give it ago with some bigger props then,also im gona get the p94 unit next week,,,and try and use my old motors,,
just gona sell my new vipers on a well known @bay that should get me some money back towards the p94,,
looking forward to ordering it now,,and i think the action boss will be happy ive made my mind up tooŽso im not pestering him about it,
if i cant get the propshafts off the old motors im gona have to get the ones i would realy like anyway and that the electronize 545-12,
so what ever happens ive gona have a quiet boat now,,
thanks action man :embarrassed:,,will order soon,,if your not ready for shooting me :-))
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Topic renamed. :-)
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Topic renamed. :-)
hi martin i dont supose you can remove the two posts with the pictures on of the bait boat,bcos ive not ben able to get hold of the lad i got it from ,i think hes away fishing,so i havent asked his permision if i can use them,,dont think he will mind,but he might think im a bit cheeky,,thanks