Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Colin Bishop on May 28, 2009, 06:25:15 pm
-
What a total pig's ear our Government have made of this business.
A member of the Royal family, preferably the Queen should certainly be present. She is the only head of state who actually served in WW2.
But then of course, it was just the Americans who liberated France wasn't it? >>:-(
Colin
-
Apparently, Colin, nobody thought to invite her! I suppose she is easily overlooked - after all her face is only on every banknote, coin and stamp?
Rick
-
Yes but apparently the French government has said any member of the Royal family is welcome to attend,, but it is more a Franco-American event. That is a genuine quote from a French Minister...... >>:-( <*< >>:-( <*<
-
I don't know if you realise this but this is the last time the D-Day vetrans will be parading "on mass" in normandy.
This year the Normandy Vetrans Association are handing over the parade to the Cadet forces of the UK and they will be
carrying out the parades as such for the future.
My Friend is an Officer taking Air Cadets from Glasgow over as a part of 500 air cadets from the UK
-
Yes I realised this was effectively the last gathering. We go over to France quite frequently and know the D day beaches area very well. The American Military Cemetery above Omaha beach is a very moving place, as are the smaller British cemeteries dotted around the place.
It's surprising just how much is still there to see. In the history books you can read that the cruiser HMS Ajax on bombardment duty scored a direct hit on a German gun mounted in a concrete bunker. The gun is still in place, as is the severed barrel embedded in the ground just in front of it. Now that really brings history to life.
Colin
-
But then of course, it was just the Americans who liberated France wasn't it? >>:-(
I thought it was just John Wayne :-)
Unfortunately, it seems to me that most Americans believe that they won the war single handedly. They apparently don't realise that Britain and her Commonwealth allies were involved well before a Japanese raid on a certain naval base in Hawaii "awoke the sleeping giant". I don't believe anyone would deny that without the involvement of America, Britain may well have lost WW2, or at the very least, it may have gone on much longer, but it was a joint effort.
Peter.
-
You bet your sweet :-)) !!!!!! Quitting was never an option!!!!!!!
-
...but it is more a Franco-American event.
Which, ulimately, just goes to prove the arrogance of the French authorities. I'm not a die-hard royalist by any means, but to snub el Queenie without even as much as an invite is a slap in the face for any decent Englishman.
My old momma, I've oftentimes heard her relate horrific stories of that D-day skirmish. But anyone would be hard-pressed not to notice the hint of disdain in her voice when she talks of the Yanks. She reckon they were crying like babies on that day. Whereas on the other end of the scale, she talks of the British and Australian soldiers with deep pride and respect.
I wasn't born then, so I cannot really comment. But from what I learnt of the Yanks, they are basically good people... if only they didn't go nicking all the best British inventions and proclaiming it theirs and proclaiming to win the war singly-handedly for us Limeys. And before you jump down my throat, no - I am not anti-American. In fact, one of my very best mates' is American. Eighty-four years old and doesn't look a day over sixty, but we click because I love his down-to-earth honesty. I just today Rx'ed an email from him, and, in his words, he is "frightened" at just how low the American regard seems to have sunk. He himself would be the first to tell you that ehe American 'me, me, me' culture has dragged his country to the pits.
And yet the French gives the thumbs-up for them to join the veteran parade, but don't give a hoot about the real heros of the day.
Bummer.
-
Hi ya
I wonder if the French still dislike us (The British) for OPERATION CATAPULT, MERS-EL-KEBIR. 3RD JUL 1940 - this is where Sir Winston Churchill ordered the British Naval Fleet to turn their guns on the French Naval Fleet - thus inflicting heavy casualties.
-
Yeah, of course they dislike us. Remember how their farmers burnt all those English sheep, out of pure spite and hatred?
Though, for the most part, the average French person is pretty decent. It's mainly the ones running the show which you have to worry about. They conveniently forgotten how we saved their asses all them years ago.
Thinking about it, pretty much the same mentality as the British gvnm't.
-
Everyone knows that Hollywood won the war. Look behind the gloss of the film world and there are some really remarkable stories. Not all of the actors who took part in the film version of the event (Wayne, Flynn et al) stayed at home. Notable names to ponder, James Stewart, Robert Mitchum, Frankie Laine, Audie Murphy, Jack Palance...
The colour of the uniform or the badges worn is immaterial, it's the simple fact that belonging to a particular nation does not make anyone proof against gaining a headstone in a war cemetary.
Regardless of nationality, I still bow my head to them.
-
Way to go, Mr. Sweeper. You still posses that ability to speak good words, yet without sounding malicious or such. Wish I had that gift.
-
Just to get actual involvement and losses in perspective....
The three main attacking forces were:
USA (73,000) - Casualties were about 6600 dead, wounded or missing. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.
United Kingdom (61,715) - Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, with 600 missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties.
Canada (21,400) - The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.)
There were also contingents from: Australia, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway and Poland.
Rick
-
Living among the French is very interesting.
There are those who are ignorant, probably the shy and inexperienced for whom anything "different" must be viewed with suspicion which is a very natural, understandable and worldwide response to foreigners.
There are those who are arrogant and believe all things French to be superior, they are few and far between.
There are those who view the British with tolerant amusement. "What, they don't eat everything?". "Why do they denigrate their own country?". "What makes them shout so much?". "Why do they not tolerate their youngsters, life gets hard soon enough?". "They have a fine Queen but she has no powers, strange". "They pay less taxes than us but they complain more". "Why do they not like the Euro?"
There are those who are very kind and helpful and move heaven and earth to assist their British neighbours, seeming to take great pride in welcoming and assisting them into the community. Embarrassingly I was once told, "You honour us by choosing to live here"!
Then there are those who do remember with gratitude the sacrifices made by the fallen in both World Wars. Celebrations of the various commemorative days are well supported and veterans of all nations are feted.
Visiting a French friend on one occasion I remarked on the three flags proudly displayed on his desk, they were the French Tricolour flanked by the Union Jack and the Stars and Stripes. I asked him why he had them there. To which he replied, "It is a debt I owe".
Roger in France
-
It is also a sad thing that soon there will be no vet's able to attend, forgeting what side they were on, there were acts of bravery maybe never to be seen again. I salute them all :-)
Rich.
-
Roger, your comments on the French are very interesting. It seems the common perception of the French is one of arrogance, particularly towards English people but, of course, this is generalising, and making generalisations is fraught with danger.
I believe there are some lovely monuments commemorating Australians who died in WW1, in some parts of France, and some villages hold annual ceremonies honouring these Aussie soldiers. There has been recent TV news coverage of the discovery of a mass grave of Australian soldiers killed in WW1. The French authorities are co-operating with Australia in having these men identified, and re-buried in a war cemetery. This is a wonderful gesture, all these years on.
Peter.
-
Peter,
Many years ago I was wandering in the hills in the Cevenne. Following a track I turned a corner and came upon some 4 wheel drives all parked up and empty. Walking on further I heard the clinking of bottles and some mingled French and Aussie voices. Apparently this was a reunion between the local Maquis and some Australian troops who had supplied them with explosives and weapons.
As old as they were they were having a great time and were all dressed up with medals etc. A large group of young men and women were cooking and serving drinks and a huge BBQ was about to be served. An adjacent memorial and flag staff had flags of many nations displayed. Strangely there were no children.
My wife and I were invited to join but after one glass of wine we pushed on as we had a night stop and dinner to make in the next valley.
Roger in France
-
Good story, Roger, :-)) and I'll bet the old Aussie diggers were enjoying the BBQ and drinks, too. O0
Peter.
-
Hello
As I know diplomatic organisation and decision are not so simple and about the Queen invitation it's appeared that it's not only a French decision but a joint one after talking with UK and other nation involved government ...
I've read on this thread that this 65th anniversary is the last one with living D-day actor maybe it's thrue but in fact nobody can predict how long will be the life of those people
It was admit by all concerned nations that the 60th was the last "great ceremonie" with all head of state all "flonflon" as we said in french. The reason is because 60 years + minimum 18-20 for the D-days actosr means minimum 78-80 years for the younger veterans.
The 70th should also be a great ceremony but with a different organization because only some actor of time will still be with us.
So, this "dispute" about the Queen invitation is quiet stupid : 65th anniversary is not a "10 years great ceremonie" and the reason why this year is particular is because Barrack Obama was asking to come to honour these fellow Americans dead on these beaches. By the way, prior this american demand, the coming of Sarkozy to the 65th was not planned. And a "regular each year" ceremony was planned.
About french arrogance, American john wayne attitude, "la perfide Albion" (deceptive British) etc... Sometimes I am ashamed to be French, after the Rainbow Warrior affair for example, but also once at the airport of Seattle when I have seen a herd of French speaking loadly with silly thinking that nobody understood what they said.
But now if I'm american may I have to be ashamed for this supid oil war in Irak searching for mass destruction weapons ? For Guantanamo jail etc... Off course not. Then, one thing I'm proud is to be Breton, I'm more Celtic than French and even ... I have a neighbour stupid as a turkey, but he is Breton 100 %. To be proud of all his actions would be shameful for me. Then in this case I would prefer to be English that Breton !
A+ Xtian
-
Hi all.....A+ Xtian ....I do not question your comments.....& you will remember that I praised your diplomacy in a response you made recently ........however I do not understand your short time postings [days/weeks] on Naval vessels of differing countries :o :o
I spent 1504 days with one section of the Australian Department of Defence [Navy] ......& during that period was offered only two short term promotional transfers ...one to UK & one to US of A...& neither did I accept for personal family reasons [small children] etc
More of your background would make interseting reading O0 O0......regards Derek
-
Hello
Serving a Navy and to be placed on another Navy for long period is rare but it's happen - actually there is almost 20 foreign officers serving aboard of French ships for one or two year deployment. And there some more (up to 100) on bases and Command Staff.
There is also short time deployement (1 week to 1 month) during operations like during Blakan crisis, off the Liban coast, Gulf of Aden operation etc...
I have a good friend, an helo pilot, serving actually for 2 years with the German Navy - since many years there permantly 2 french pilots serving the German Navy and same on the other way.
Mainly those exchanges are with European navies and some with other NATO. It's rare with other nations even if there is some training officers and I remember to have 2 Brazilians aboard during a month at sea (it was not an exchange but they have to learn some the way of working equipments with us) .
An exchange between ships sailing on same joint exercise or the same joint operation is more frequent. A British counterpart from the HMS Northumberland had come one week aboard the French frigate Primauguet (D644) while I was aboard of the Northumberland during Joint Maritime Course off the northen Scotland. It was the same for the HMS Severn or the HMNZS Canterbury where a New Zealand officer "replaced" me for two days aboard of my ship.
I have to say that in those cases its' more a friendly exchange and as exemple some of my friends aboard of french ships don't want to stay a week aboard of an US ship as the food is so bad, but there is so many volunteer to go aboard of German ships as the beer is good etc... I was Ops officer and from the Norhumberland my contrepart was an engineer owner of a house in France (Perigord) I'm sure it was not a chance but a real choice to be "exchanged" aboard of a French navy ship.
From my side I'm always ready for foreign experiment and even I've spend a day aboard of an Ukrainian and 2 days on Saudi ship O0
About the Success it was quiet different as it was just experience sharing. At that time I was ops officer aboard of the same oiler Durance class design. I was in Australia to learn your way of work and to share our experiences. So I spend some days at sea aboard of the HMAS Success during RAS training, prior and after I've send some day of working on paper and procedures. As I remember 2 or 3 australian officers have spend some time aboard of French oiler prior the commisioning of the Success and also aboard or Canadian AOR as the transfert equipment for French, Australian but also Saudi oiler is Canadian designed.
Maybe Australian is particular as you are not in NATO and as your are so far down under, so I'm sure there some exchange with the New Zealand Navy, some with the US and UK (you are serving the same Queen {-) with your ships named Her Majesty's Australian Ship )
I hope to have answered your question
Otherwise do not hesitate to send me a MP certain things cannot be said on an all over the world read forum
A+ Xtian
-
Thanks A+ Xtian.....your comments only confuse.........HMAS Success....yes I understand she was built on French plans....& yes I was engaged to assist in resolving an hydraulic mooring winch issue many years ago........but as she only had a few 0.5 caliber machine guns...was not any function of my role in above water weapons.............
BTW....Australia is a signature to the ANSUS agreement's .........& I thought also the North Atlanic Treaty Orginization [NATO] ........Derek :-))
-
I find the attitudes to other nations interesting - ISTM that one of the main reasons we get wars is because one group of people think another group of people are inferior and more than that are denying the first group their due respect and their place in the world.
The relationship between the English and the French amuses me - more than anything it is a family squabble, a bunch of warring relatives. Ever since William the Bas***d stuffed Harold a large proportion of English culture is derived from the French, though with all sorts of other influences (the Windsor family, formerly the Sax-Coburgs and the Mountbatten family formerly the Battenburgs spring to mind).
I am a pacifist - but that does not stop me wanting to honour the dead of battle - not just allied forces but all sides. The Germans were on the wrong side, but we shouldn't forget that they also fought heorically and bravely. I think that at this memorial, the royals and preferably the queen should be there - after all it was in the name of the monarch that those people went to fight and to die. The Prime-Minister is not the head of state, but a mere functionary - the First Lord of the Treasury and servant of the crown.
Wom
-
Hello
About the Queen invitation. Until the end of february 2009 it was not planned to have an important ceremonie for the 65th anniversary, as not a decade ceremony
Even Sarkozy was not sure to be present
Now this ceremonie start to be "bigger" following the demand from Barrack Obama for coming to the D-day Beaches this year. Anyway it still not a "great ceremonie" like the one for decade anniversaries with all head of states even from small Pacific Ocean or African countries.
As I heard, the Queen planning concerning this kind of big event is done some years in advance, at least one year ! So as this ceremony was not a "great one", a "decade one" The coming of the Queen was not planned (as I said even the coming of Sarkozy was not sure).
It was some changes with the demand of Barrack Obama after his election, so Sarkozy will be there to received the guest.
Now it's time for the formal invitation but as it was planned since long time, the Queen is not invited.
Ok now think about a change in this month of May with a Queen invitation because Barrack is coming and then also Sarkozy...
There is two ways
- She have to refuse as her planning is done since one year - that means an offence from the Queen to the Veterans, Army and so on.
- She accept and then there is a mess with other obligations, a mess with honour guard planning regiment to be present, etc...
In fact there is nothing wrong in this history. The 65th anniversary was planned as a regular each year ceremony without big "flonflon" and all invitation are well organized each time with both part : Foreign Office and Ministère des Affaires Etrangères. Then according to French and British autorities the invitation was not to the Head of State but for the inferior level - that's all
So I know that in Britain news paper like the Sun said " the arrogant French do not invite the Queen but Barrack is coming" the day after some stupid french news paper do the same error and then publish some embarrased answer from the Queen secretary or administration ...
It's a stupid thing from stupid people and please don't mix everything.
About the Germans, remember that for the 60th the German Prime Minister was here for a part of the ceremony, only the ones in souvenir of deads.
- About the Australia, Canada, New Zealand soldier dead don't forget that the Queen is also your head of state {-)
- Australia in the NATO : No
- Your are right Wombat with the relationship between English and French but you are wrong about Windsor Family and Mountbatten as they are from germany austro-hungry and so on but not French as from our side we have cut the head of all royalist {-) (it's humour as I don't care...)
A+ Xtian
-
Hi Xtian,
Yes I mentioned the Sax-Coburgs and Battenburgs as other (not French influences) - made the WWI an irony - that really was a family squabble with naughty uncle Willy.
The queen I guess must be booked well in advance, but some things surely can be an exception - especially when the date has been known about for 65 years. Personally I think this is the place of the Royal Family - fighting for Queen and Country and all that. It won't be that much longer before the events are outside living memory
"And the band plays Waltzing Mathilda
The old men still answer the call
But as year follows year,
More old men disappear,
One day no-one will march anymore"
From "The band played Waltzing Mathilda" by Eric Bogle
Ignore what the tabloids say:
Q: Why is a girl on a beach in San Tropez like a tabloid journalist?
A: They are both lying in the Sun.
(modified from an original by Stephen Fry)
Wom
-
Hello
Yes Wombat, War is stupid but the WWI is certainely one of the most supid for many reasons and this ironic royal families squabble is another brick in this wall of stupidity ...
A+ Xtian
-
Anyone read "The Magic Army" by Leslie Thomas? A wonderful novel about the build-up to D-Day. Most of it set around Lulworth Cove area. Really, well worth a read. BY.
-
Armageddon By Max Hastings is an incisive overview, albeit in hindsight. of WW2 and well worth a read. Food for thought and reflection.
-
Wombat, we now claim Eric Bogle as one of our own, even though he was born in Peebles, Scotland, in 1944. He emigrated to Australia in 1969, as he put it, "the only sensible thing I've ever done". He wrote "The Band Plays Waltzing Matilda" in 1972, after watching an ANZAC march in Canberra. It's a very poignant song about the futility of war.
Peter.
-
Apologies A+ Xtian........you are correct.....Australia in not a member of NATO..........however we do assist NATO members in real terms with Australian enlisted personal & equipment in support of various NATO activities O0 ...Derek
-
Australia in not a member of NATO
Correct, Derek, seeing that NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and we are a loooooooong way from the North Atlantic.
We are, as you say, a partner in the ANZUS Alliance, Australia, New Zealand and the United States, although New Zealand does not have much to do with ANZUS any more.
Peter.
-
Hello
There is some political divergence specialy about nuclear weapon and nuclear propulsion. So ANZUS without NZ is more AUS - stange acronym isn't it ? As I remember Australian are also in a "like alliance" with Rimpac countries ...
A+ Xtian
-
Hello
Yes Wombat, War is stupid but the WWI is certainely one of the most supid for many reasons and this ironic royal families squabble is another brick in this wall of stupidity ...
A+ Xtian
Amazing how quickly your English is improving.
-
Hello
I don't know if you are joking or not about my English ... In fact it depend how long time i'm "in situ". For exemple when I was in US since more than 2 or 3 months wihout any French word even at night I was dreaming in English.
The last time I really spoke English was last year while I spent 1 month in UK, but since then : nothing. Indeed it's good for me to discuss here and to maintain my English. I had learnt the Dutch 20 years ago, I forgot everything because I do not use it any more. Similar for the Arab whom I learnt a little 10 years ago ...
So, thank you to all people of this forum and sorry for my poor English as I know sometime it must be hard to understand me !
A+ Xtian (http://nsa08.casimages.com/img/2009/05/31/090531113815899624.gif) (http://www.casimages.com)
-
The uk tabloid newspapers often promote/engender prejudice and distort the true facts to create sensational headlines as they compete with one another. They display/promote attitudes and stereotypes which are misleading particularly when they champion our national (apparently English?) honour (a real favourite theme). They love to stir up indignation and are very selective with the truth and sacrifice the facts for a good headline. I suspect we get the misrepresentation/newspapers we deserve - their garbage sells. :((
-
Xtian, don't worry about your English, we are receiving you loud and clear!
I actually think it's rather nice when people don't have perfect foriegn language skills, it makes life a little more interesting and sometimes quite amusing. I remember well those wonderful posts of Godo and his use of English. We all found his stories hilarious, made funnier by his use of the language. This did not mean we laughed at him in a derogatory manner however, butI for one sat here with tears streaming down my face.
Like you, I found when I was in Germany, my language skills improved no end but returning to England and with the passage of time, it all began to slip away again. I also found it extremely tiring trying to keep going in a foreign language all day. I am certainly not brave enough or educated enough to attempt it on a German forum ,thats for sure.
I have to say, that when my foreign clients e-mail me apologising for their poor English, I always thank them for using it and point out that their English, however poor is a damn sight better than my German/Dutch/ Spanish etc etc.
You are doing ok Xtian. :-))
-
Hello
Thank you for your comments :-)
A+ Xtian
-
Well done Sheerline, nicely said.
-
Hello
I don't know if you are joking or not about my English ... In fact it depend how long time i'm "in situ". For exemple when I was in US since more than 2 or 3 months wihout any French word even at night I was dreaming in English.
The last time I really spoke English was last year while I spent 1 month in UK, but since then : nothing. Indeed it's good for me to discuss here and to maintain my English. I had learnt the Dutch 20 years ago, I forgot everything because I do not use it any more. Similar for the Arab whom I learnt a little 10 years ago ...
So, thank you to all people of this forum and sorry for my poor English as I know sometime it must be hard to understand me !
A+ Xtian (http://nsa08.casimages.com/img/2009/05/31/090531113815899624.gif) (http://www.casimages.com)
You don't half get around a bit....do you have a caravan? BY.
-
Les chiens aboient la caravane passe
Dogs bark, the caravan passes ;D
A+ Xtian
-
So, thank you to all people of this forum and sorry for my poor English
No need to apologise xtian, your English is excellent. :-))
Peter
-
Hi there,
As I said earlier a friend was one of the officers taking part in the parade,
he gave me some pictures that I thought I would share
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC10023-1.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC10022.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC10040.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC10039.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC10043.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg282/gingyer/normandy/SDC100152.jpg)
He was telling me the majority of the reenactment people were germans
that were dressed with American uniforms
-
He was telling me the majority of the reenactment people were germans
that were dressed with American uniforms
Re enacting the "Battle of the Bulge" then?!
-
Many thanks for the pictures gingyer, that landing craft looks well beached - a huge tide reach on that beach.
-
Re enacting the "Battle of the Bulge" then?!
probably got there dates mixed up O0
Many thanks for the pictures gingyer, that landing craft looks well beached - a huge tide reach on that beach.
I thought so also, He was unable to get closer shots as he had to do some parade %)