Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: DickyD on June 18, 2009, 06:17:08 pm

Title: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DickyD on June 18, 2009, 06:17:08 pm
Daily Mail today

Gipsies and travellers should be given priority in NHS hospitals and GP surgeries, doctors have been told.

They will be fast-tracked for doctors, nurses and even some dentist appointments above all other patients.

GPs have also been told to see any travellers who simply walk in without an appointment, even if all consultation times for the day are full.
Who's jumping the queue? Waiting in line to see a GP

Wait for it: GPs have been told to see any travellers who simply walk in - even if all consultation times for the day are full. They will also be fast-tracked for nurses and dental appointments

They will also be given longer consultations than other patients. Five or ten minutes is the average but travellers will be given 20 minutes and allowed to bring relatives into the consulting rooms.

Staff will be given 'mandatory cultural awareness' training so they can fully understand what it is like to be a traveller or gipsy.

It raises the prospect that other patients will suffer worse healthcare and have to wait even longer to see their GP.

The guidelines have been introduced because, under race laws, gipsies and travellers are defined as minority ethnic groups and the NHS is obliged to consider their special needs and circumstances.

Yet no special treatment is promised for other groups such as those from the Asian sub-continent or Africa.

The guidance also encourages Primary Care Trusts to establish new services for travellers if none exist, and to designate a senior manager to be a named lead for 'Gipsy and Traveller Health'.

The rules form part of the Primary Care Service Framework, drawn up by the NHS Primary Care Commissioning - an advisory service for local health trusts - to help all PCTs understand the Department of Health's policy.
gypsy health.jpg

It will go on trial for between three and five years, Although PCTs do not necessarily have to follow the guidelines, they could be breaking human rights law and the Race Relations Act of 2000 if they do not.

Groups covered by the framework include Scottish gipsy travellers, Welsh gipsies, bargees, circus and fairground showmen and new travellers.

Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley said: 'No one should get priority treatment in the NHS apart from our Armed Forces, to whom we owe a special debt of gratitude.

'Decisions about who should be treated first should be based on a patient's medical needs, not their ethnic group.

'NHS managers need to get off doctors' and nurses' backs and start letting them get on with what they do best - looking after sick people.

'Such a policy of fast-tracking one section of society over another goes against the founding principles of the NHS.

Labour's botched handling of the new GP contracts and obsession with a tick-box target culture in the NHS mean many people find it difficult to get a GP appointment quickly.

'Families will feel aggrieved that it will now be even harder.'

Mark Wallace, from the Tax-Payers' Alliance, said: 'This kind of special treatment is totally uncalled-for and utterly unjustified.

'The NHS is meant to treat people equally so matter who they are or whatever their race.
Gypsy and travellers

Groups covered by the framework include Scottish gipsy travellers, Welsh gipsies, bargees, circus and fairground showmen and new travellers

'The only priority should be how ill someone is, not their politically-correct concerns.

'This will be incredibly frustrating for people who have paid tax all their lives to fund the NHS and are left struggling to get a doctor's appointment and prompt treatment. H

'Hardworking people will be outraged at this double standard.'

The NHS estimates there are 120,000 to 300,000 gipsies and travellers in the UK but there are no firm numbers as the census does not include them as a category.

Traveller spokesman Gratton Puxon, from the illegal camp at Crays Hill in Essex, welcomed the initiative.

He said: 'The problem stems from years ago when there was simply no access to healthcare, but things have greatly improved. Health workers visit the site quite regularly if people have chronic problems.'

The Department of Health said: 'We are aware that gipsies and travellers have experienced tremendous difficulties in accessing primary care.

'Partly as a result, community members experience the worst health inequalities of any disadvantaged group.

'The framework suggests fast-tracking for two reasons. First, as a matter of urgency, inroads need to be made into the health problems of gipsies and travellers.

'Second, if mobile community members are not seen quickly, the opportunity could be lost as they move on or are moved on. This should not be to the detriment of service provision to the settled community.'
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Mark47 on June 18, 2009, 06:26:48 pm
There are a coupled of points I would like to pick up on, but why bother the goverment does what it wants because it can.

My overall feeling about this is.  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( <*< <*< <*< <*< <*< <*< >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

But as it's an open forum.  :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Mark
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: sheerline on June 19, 2009, 08:13:19 am
I have also heard that one council is to spend 47000-00 of the taxpayers money on a Gypsy awareness week in their schools.
I can only repeat, we get the government we deserve because people won't vote! Now will people believe we the working class taxpayers are truly second class citizens, just cattle to be milked so this ruddy shower we call a government can wreck our country.
It seems that the less you pay into this society, the further up the pecking order you go but as a taxpayer, you fall of the bottom and land on your ar-e. I think we have all got it wrong somewhere, perhaps if we all dropped out, we might get some  of the sterling service enjoyed by our minority group counterparts
Because a law was passed stating that Gypsies are 'a minority ethnic group' we now find ourselves cornered yet again, controlled in such a way that mere discussion of the subject means the liberal pc brigade will be watching, waiting to pounce, so they can scream their favourite word 'racist' at anyone who starts discussing these people in any kind of negative way.
I concurr with Mark47 but would get finger ache pressing  this<*< button as much as I would like.
As usual, I am disgusted.... but not surprised!
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: andygh on June 19, 2009, 08:19:30 am
Daily Mail..... say no more  %)
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DickyD on June 19, 2009, 08:36:28 am
Daily Mail..... say no more  %)
Dont dismiss it because its the Daily Mail, my wife works for the NHS and she has been hearing this through the grapevine for some time.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: sheerline on June 19, 2009, 08:43:52 am
Why hasn't it appeared on the tv news media or am I correct in thinking that it may have been supressed ! %)
Dicky, your thread is titled 'Unvbelievable? ' Maybe you should have been entitled.....'BELIEVABLE' as with each day that passes we become less and less surprised at the way we are being treated...... or in the NHS sense...'not treated'!
 
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: hopeitfloats on June 19, 2009, 09:02:39 am
welcome to the world of PC. we have been getting that sort of rubbish for years. the latest suggestion is that a certain section of the population (thats me being PC) should get automatic entry into universities regardless of educational background.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Martin [Admin] on June 19, 2009, 09:25:04 am

      But as it's an open forum.  :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X


Yes. Good. Thanks Mark!    Don't want to dealing with any spats this weekend ladies and gentlemen.    :-))
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: maninthestreet on June 20, 2009, 10:21:43 pm
At least I suppose allowing them to jump the queue in a doctor's surgery may prevent them from trying to flog 'lucky' heather to the other patients in the waiting room.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DieselDo on June 21, 2009, 12:35:46 am
What is unbelievable?
You reading the Mail or the article   :}
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Captain Jack on June 21, 2009, 02:49:29 am
Now, just wait a damned minute....did you guys elect Obama too?
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: maninthestreet on June 21, 2009, 07:59:06 pm
Now, just wait a damned minute....did you guys elect Obama too?

No - we elected a bunch of cultural Marxists in 1997 who have been wrecking our country for the last 12 years.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: wombat on June 21, 2009, 09:47:42 pm
At the risk of spoiling a good argument with facts, here are the guidelines:

http://www.pcc.nhs.uk/uploads/primary_care_service_frameworks/2009/ehrg_gypsies_and_travellers_pcsf_190509.pdf (http://www.pcc.nhs.uk/uploads/primary_care_service_frameworks/2009/ehrg_gypsies_and_travellers_pcsf_190509.pdf)

Here is the report referenced in those guidelines:

http://www.shef.ac.uk/content/1/c6/02/55/71/GT%20report%20summary.pdf (http://www.shef.ac.uk/content/1/c6/02/55/71/GT%20report%20summary.pdf)

The justification for offering the priority to the various nomadic groups is that they show significantly poorer levels of health than other disadvantaged groups.

Quote
There is now little doubt that health inequality between
the observed Gypsy Traveller population in England and their non-Gypsy
counterparts is striking, even when compared with other socially deprived or excluded
groups and with other ethnic minorities

Wom
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DickyD on June 21, 2009, 09:53:22 pm


The justification for offering the priority to the various nomadic groups is that they show significantly poorer levels of health than other disadvantaged groups.

Quote
There is now little doubt that health inequality between
the observed Gypsy Traveller population in England and their non-Gypsy
counterparts is striking, even when compared with other socially deprived or excluded
groups and with other ethnic minorities

Wom
They aint met me or my mucker John then, load of cr*p !  >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DieselDo on June 21, 2009, 09:56:03 pm
and....................................

Their choice of lifestyle

Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: wombat on June 21, 2009, 09:58:36 pm
I do like a well-reasoned repsonse.

Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DieselDo on June 21, 2009, 10:04:45 pm
It just seems like more positive descrimination.
The problem with positive descrimination is by its very nature is descrimination to the non traveller community.
Once again pandering to the minority at the cost of the majority who, by the way, pay for the services.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 21, 2009, 10:14:55 pm
In what way are they disadvantaged? They positively choose to live the way they do and frequently cause major social disruption to the rest of the population. Nor do many of them appear to be short of funds.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: wombat on June 21, 2009, 10:21:21 pm
Question is, though, is positive discrimination such a bad thing - if there is a group that is identified as having sginificantly higher problems then, given that one of the key tenets of the NHS is provision of care to those who need on the basis of need and not of other factors such as race or wealth, shouldn't that care be focussed on those groups who have higher health problems. After all it seems to me that if you can increase the general level of health in the nation, then fewer people are forced into the healthcare system freeing up resources for those woh need speicalist help.  

There is also an economic factor to consider - Primary care is significantly cheaper than chronic care - if you can solve these problems through first line care then you can probably avoid much heavier costs further down the line.

Of course you can say that these groups because they lie outside "accepted" and "acceptable" should have care limited - but then where do you stop? Gypsies first, then perhpas the long-term unemployed and the social underclass and so-onand so-on. You start to apportion care based less on what people need and more on who they are. Health care then becomes discriminatory - more and more your health becomes based on your social class and earning potential.


Quote
In what way are they disadvantaged? They positively choose to live the way they do and frequently cause major social disruption to the rest of the population. Nor do many of them appear to be short of funds.

Well , if the report is to be believed, they have significantly higher health problems than the general society and those problems seem to get worse if they move away from their nomadic lifestyle. It maybe a lifestyle choice - but then one could argue a similar sort of thing for most people. After all, it was pretty much a tenet of Thatcherism that being poor was a lifestlye choice and if only people got on their bikes then they would find prosperity.

Wom
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 21, 2009, 10:32:31 pm
I'm not suggesting they should be discriminated against but they don't tend to be very co operative with conventional authorities. Attempting to get their kids into some minimal degree of education has proved to be very difficult. It is certainly a problem but the very nature of their society is that they do not wish to engage with normal society and are to some extent parasitic on it. And yes, I do recognise that there is a distinction between genuine Gypsies and "Travellers" generally. My comments stem from many years working for a County Council which has a statutory duty to provide for travellers.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DieselDo on June 21, 2009, 10:35:51 pm
Wom,
I do disagree with positive discrimination. Discrimination is Discrimination so where should it stop.
I personally blame all the PC nonsense and positive discrimination on the backlash that is allowing the BNP to get representatives voted in.
While the "Main" parties all pander to the above where can a protest vote go, only to the far right parties.
There is an upsurge in English Nationalism which has been exacerbated by the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies which without the West Lothian Question being answered will continue.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Bartapuss on June 21, 2009, 11:19:10 pm
I sometimes wonder who and where these faceless persons come from and whats their hidden agenda, no doubt they're white, affluent and in a position with a little power in the civil service, NHS or local government etc. etc. They seam to come out every so often with some new clap trap which only serves to stoke the fire of further tensions towards minorities, what is their background where did the come from, BNP, Class War, Anarchy in the UK, Combat 17 or Smash the State, skin head thug to elected representative in a suit in one easy step!!
Government is useless, judiciary is useless and the police are useless, this country is on the precipice of a slippery slope to becoming a violent nightmare place.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Captain Jack on June 22, 2009, 01:17:47 am
Oh MY God...Bartapuss just described, Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, and almost every other big city in the US!
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Captain Jack on June 22, 2009, 01:25:12 am
Just some bumper stickers I've seen lately here in the States.

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8886/13907236.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1188/98329135.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7914/22289692.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3366/37953248.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: sheerline on June 22, 2009, 08:55:39 am
And people wonder why there is a surge toward the right, it's staring everyone in the face for goodness sake! This kind of pc pandering nonsense will eventually turn society round, the right wing will grow and there will be bigger problems ahead than we have now. It's no good moaning about people turning to the 'right' if all you do is keep raping the system and their wallets in favour of some 'disadvanted' minority who decide to either dump themselves on your doorstep or choose to live outside society with their own rules which are diametrically oppose to the very society which supports them.
This pathetic pc thinking and practices will be responsible for putting and extreme right wing government in place. It will be by their own hand and everyone will be able to sit back and watch and listen whilst THEY moan for a change!
 
 
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Patternmaker on June 22, 2009, 11:05:33 am
Here's an interesting story to mull over about Dale Farm illegal travellers site to from our local newspaper,

(Traveller leader president of the Gypsy Council tried to strike a 2million deal with Local Council chiefs so 86 families would leave peacefully if they handed over the huge sum as it will cost the 2million to remove them).

I has already cost the council  100 of thousands of pounds in legal fees to get the eviction order to remove them, all the travellers costs borne by legal aid!

No wonder our council tax has gone through the roof.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: maninthestreet on June 22, 2009, 12:43:36 pm
And people wonder why there is a surge toward the right, it's staring everyone in the face for goodness sake! This kind of pc pandering nonsense will eventually turn society round, the right wing will grow and there will be bigger problems ahead than we have now. It's no good moaning about people turning to the 'right' if all you do is keep raping the system and their wallets in favour of some 'disadvanted' minority who decide to either dump themselves on your doorstep or choose to live outside society with their own rules which are diametrically oppose to the very society which supports them.
This pathetic pc thinking and practices will be responsible for putting and extreme right wing government in place. It will be by their own hand and everyone will be able to sit back and watch and listen whilst THEY moan for a change!
 
 

Couldn't have put it better myself.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Perkasaman2 on June 22, 2009, 03:17:05 pm
Our NHS/democracy is still the envy of many peoples in the world.  :}
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Inkmark on June 22, 2009, 03:39:42 pm
Guys
Interesting reference to democracy.
I think we have the democracy of the media in the UK now, after all if it's on the tele everyone takes notice.
I am old enough to remember when CB radios were introduced on 27 Meg. Over a million licenced modellers
(yes we had to pay in those days) suddenly were overruled by a few hundred cars driving round parliament square.
Same here. Travellers do what they want and make a song and dance in the media.
As an experiment just you try to build a shed on green belt without planning permission.
You would be gone in a flash, just like the guy who built a tree house in his own garden without planning permission.
Basically there are rules and we should abide, everybody no matter from what ethnic background you originate.
Cheers
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Patternmaker on June 22, 2009, 06:04:45 pm
Absolutely correct Inkmark,
The travellers have built several houses on the Dale Farm site without planning permission and the council had to get an eviction order to gain access to demolish them as it is to dangerous to enter the site, I wonder if the council will eventually send them the bill for demolition as they do normally to anyone who builds
without planning permission but then I suppose they would get legal aid to pay the bill or rather the tax payer
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: wombat on June 22, 2009, 08:49:42 pm
I'm not suggesting they should be discriminated against but they don't tend to be very co operative with conventional authorities. Attempting to get their kids into some minimal degree of education has proved to be very difficult. It is certainly a problem but the very nature of their society is that they do not wish to engage with normal society and are to some extent parasitic on it. And yes, I do recognise that there is a distinction between genuine Gypsies and "Travellers" generally. My comments stem from many years working for a County Council which has a statutory duty to provide for travellers.

Colin - yes there does need to be a quid-pro-quo. There has to be some measure of reciprocation. The coming of travellers does tend to be disruptive on the communities they encounter. One of the problems comes from a fundamental shift in the way government services with the Major administration - the shift in concept to view the users of services as "customers" rather than "clients" and the rather fatuous idea of the internal market. It put the emphasis on the consumers demanding what they want.  Perhaps what society needs is to shift the focus back from rights to responsibilities.

Quote from: DieselDo
Wom,
I do disagree with positive discrimination. Discrimination is Discrimination so where should it stop.

I am not so sure - it is something that can help disadvantaged groups in the short term. Problem is that it does stir up prejudices that those groups are getting an easy ride - despite the fact it is attempting to level the playing field. Problem is how do you deal with prejudice and the discrimination that comes from it? In many ways positive discrimination is perhaps not so much the best solution as one of the least worst. Political Correctness does get fairly bad press - I think that it has become a parody of itself because of the ideological and doctinaire way it is used. The basic idea of politcal correctness though is very laudible - that one sohuld be aware that the way things are said may betray you own prejudices and that as far as possible neutral or positive terms should be used, particularly when speaking on behalf of an agency or body, where what the individual says is taken as what the agency says. This can get taken to extremes though.

I think that our welfare state is something to be proud of - it embodies the ideals of a socialism that is now lost - the idea of comunity where each recieve according to their need and provide according to their ability. Problem is it don't work when the emphaisis is on the individual. The move to the right, I think, is not just a feature of the disenchantment with the political process. With the disintigration of the concept of community, people have lost their sense of belonging and become isolated and alienated. Bring in a sense of uncertainty such as economic upheaval to create a climate of fear and you have a fertile groud for the right who offer a sense of community and a set of scapegoats for the problems the individual see as besetting them. Just look at the rise of Fascism in the wake of WWI and the collapse of the Weimar Republic.

Going back to the original subject - I think that the situation is being exploited by the tabloid media for no other reason than to see papers. It is out and out manipulation. Remember what R.L. Stevenson wrote: "One can never hope to bribe or twist, thank God, the British journalist. Being seeing what the man, unbribed, will do there isn't an occaision to" The print media has a problem in that its traditional role has been taken over by the broadcast media and the Internet - they have to find a new role, and one they are trying to develop is to comment upon and interpret events rather than report them. This involves them taking on populist hobby-horses to sell their rags.  Typically, inm the tabloids, this is through lowest-common-denominator rhetoric.

And the solution offered in the guidelines - in the first case it did make me uneasy, but the more I have thought about it, the more it seems to me that it is a very good solution - low cost - very simple to implement the guidelines - it ticks the positive action box meeting the requirements of the legislation and yet it relies no the travellers to come into the surgeries - if they don't come in there is no service given (no outreach costs, no special staff etc etc). Then they will get the attention - but because of their mobile lifestyle the travellers will be moving on very soon so the burden on any particular surgery or trust will be limited. A fairly elegant solution - with a Machiavellian simplicity.

Wom
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Patternmaker on June 22, 2009, 10:04:21 pm
Travellers building large 4 bedroom houses, I dont think they will be moving on soon.
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: DieselDo on June 22, 2009, 10:47:13 pm
Wombat,
One of the real sticking points is the cost.
This positive discrimination is seen as disadvantaging the very people who pay for the service.
Most residents pay Tax and National Insurance, as the Health Trusts are very cost conscious now it has to lead to a reduction of the service to the indigenous population who are paying for the service.
I don't have a problem of use when needed, but do have a problem with ANY group having a disruptive advantage over the rest.
As Colin has said they use a lifestyle choice to suit themselves, not the community as a whole, leave the local taxpayers with huge costs to clean up after they chose to leave.
They force entry on any land they want so therefore disengaging with our laws and customs.
Then expect superior service over the tax payers supplying it.
Surely you must admit there is ammunition for a backlash.

Bob
Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Patternmaker on June 23, 2009, 11:22:13 am
I do not object to travellers or their lifestyle as it is their choice, what I do object to is their blatant disregard for   the law.
I lived on a houseboat from birth for over 20years and were regarded by a minority of people as gypsies but we did pay rates, and pay for our water.

With regard to Dale Farm you have to respect the feelings of the law abiding people who bought their houses many years ago backing on to the green belt land which has become an illegal travellers site. There outlook now is a fenced garrison living in fear of reprisals if they do or say anything to the travellers, they cannot move because nobody will buy their houses. It's now become a no-go area for the police. The only way to track the activities on the site is by aerial photograph's

Title: Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
Post by: Perkasaman2 on June 23, 2009, 06:31:45 pm
I agree with Wombat's impressive reasoning/analysis but also see a real need to pass law's which give police appropriate/immediate powers (which apply on public roads/areas) extended to act in these 'trveller' situations. An alternative to the current ineffective lengthy/cost prohibitive civil actions to prevent  'Dale Farm situations' which enables prompt/effective action. These people are still paying plenty of non- house taxes - many authorities run transit/short stay sites/facilities to minimise avoid friction/nuisance - a better solution for everyone. Don't fancy the protest vote/bunker/armageddon approach  :o.