Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 01:52:25 pm

Title: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 01:52:25 pm
Well I thought I had built the largest model I would ever build (HMS Dreadnought) until the "Belly Dancer" saw the G3 hull at Ron's show last year and bought it for me for Christmas!

Not being perturbed by mere facts like "Darling, I have already got HMS Dreadnought, it's collier and Tug and HMS Kent in the car, where am I supposed to put a nine foot hull?" or words to that affect. We did manage to slide the hull down the centre of the car and all the way home all I saw was the top of her head and a "light" snoring sound.

Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 01:56:56 pm
So I thought, I have a big hull now, what next?

Research

The National Maritime museum has a full set of plans for this vessel and after they had liberated quite a lot of money from me I received 6 detailed drawings of the G3 at 1/96 scale, which made each full size sheet ten feet long (I am going to need a bigger workshop!)

The G3 was going to be the biggest ship the Royal Navy had ever had, so big in fact that the docks where she would tie up, were going to have to be extended. Thankfully the Washington Treaty put an end to the repeat of the arms race that lead to the first world war from happening again in the 1920's.

The drawing below shoes the proposed layout, which was later adopted in a shortened version for the Nelson & Rodney.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 01:59:11 pm
Over the winter, I started work on the mechanical and electrical design for this model. I looked hard at the requirements and decided that with the room that I had to play with this time, I would use it to it's full extent and build in as much as I could to give me ultimate control and realism of handling.

1. Engines

I would need a lot of power at both high and low revolutions, but I was not sure how such a large hull would behave, so I opted for 4 motors with medium range, and to give me the control I went for 11 pole Buhlers that could be run off a 24V supply.

2. Drive train

To give me flexibility I went for the same belt drive system that I used in HMS Dreadnought, it's quite, easy to line up accurately, and by changing pulleys can alter the drive ratio easily.

3. Propeller shafts

The shafts are going to be quite long, so I order some stainless steel (316L marine grade), Bronze and Brass to make my own.

4. Speed controllers

With the requirement for low and high end control I went for 3 Electronise variable frequency controllers, and I will explain why 3 and not 4 later.

5. Fogger

Last but not least I wanted the realistic look of smoke coming from the stacks. I spoke to Mark of Marks Model Bits and after a bit of discussion we came up with the concept of the super fogger. 5 nebulisers, two fans and an ESC, all running off 24V.

So it was soon down to some design time on the computer to work out the layout of the motors and tubes.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 02:02:30 pm
Now I am getting into the swing of things, I thought it was time for some prototyping.

I always build and mess about away from the model as I am not often happy with the first attempt.

The first part of this build was going to be the engine room, so with a large piece of wood I set about putting the components together.

The scale of this engine room can be judged from the standard size servo acting as the rudder, just in front of the pulleys.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 02:06:42 pm
It is now that I had chance to try my first experiment. Now it is not going to be easy to explain as you really need to see the results in action, but here goes.

I recently treated myself to a 6 channel 2.4 Ghz Futaba 6EX. This set is designed for aircraft and so has flaps and aileron control built in. It also has a relatively good computer and most importantly two programmable mixers.

I setup the two central motors on one of the speed controllers as per normal, but the other two motors were connected to the remaining two speed controllers and then plugged into the aileron and flaps channels. This gave me the opportunity to drive them together in the same direction (flaps) or in opposite directions (ailerons).

Now this is where it gets complicated! By using the two in built channel mixers on the transmitter, I was able to mix the flaps with the throttle and get all four motors operating at full power without the loss you sometimes get when using electronic on-board motor mixers. The by using the second mixer I was able to combine rudder and ailerons which gave me the ability to change the speed and direction of the two outer motors as the rudder turns.

I still have the ability to use the flap and aileron controls independently for maneuvering, but the combined channels give me supreme control of the models power on one stick.

I am contemplating a bow thruster through the forward torpedo tubes to give me good docking control as the bow is nine feet away.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: ronkh on June 19, 2009, 02:52:33 pm
Hi Marmoi,

Looking forward to this build. :-))

Ron.

PS. I am not the Ron mentioned in your first post!!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: riggers24 on June 19, 2009, 03:20:43 pm
Have you thought of using a mixer like the ACTion P40C http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P40C.pdf (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P40C.pdf)

Just a thought

Riggers
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 19, 2009, 03:27:48 pm
Hi Rigger,

If I use the mixers on the Transmitter, I can switch them of at a moments notice and use the two outer motors on their own as a fine control.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: riggers24 on June 29, 2009, 10:15:36 pm
Hi Mark,

All four motors would be running all the time, do you not think with the length of the hull you will be needing all four. I believe the mixer would be a great help, I have seen other long hulls with the mixer fitted dancing on a six pence and other with huge turning circles.

I have been away last week so sorry about the delay in responding to you.

Marc
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 08:09:44 am
Hi Marc,

Now this is where the mixers on the transmitter start to be very helpfull, once moving at a decent cruising speed, at the flick of one switch the mixers are turned off and only the two centre motors will be running on the throttle stick, the outer motors can be activated if required on the right hand stick. To bring them all back together I just have to flick the switch again.

It is very hard to explain and it took a lot of thinking to get it working, but once had built the test bed it all came together and even I understood it better.

I have been reprogramming a friends 6EX the same way for his twin prop type 42 and the model performs and handles a lot better. We have also found that by reducing the mixing ratio in the programming, the mixing is less violent and more controlled at lower speeds.

Regards

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: riggers24 on June 30, 2009, 03:57:13 pm
Hi Mark,

Another thought I had if a mixer was fitted is reduces the number of channels you are using so if you want to fit anything else i.e. swing the turrets you have that option.

Just a thought

Marc
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 05:15:29 pm
Hi Marc,

With the mixers turned off, I can use the Action 4 way switcher on the rudder channel. I have used this system with good results for many years. The rudder signal passes through the switcher and is virtually unaffected with the quick flicking for the switching. I have also built a rudder servo slower into the circuit on this model as I want the rudder to turn realistically, so the switching will have little effect.

If I have the mixers turned on, then I will be doing some manoeuvring and therefore won't be wanting to switch anything on or off at that time (I hope).

This is all going to be a grand experiment and I will not garanttee it will all work, but that is half the fun. I experimented with my Dreadnought for 3 years and I am still not happy with the mixing.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 05:27:57 pm
I have had some time free in the workshop, so I thought it was time to start the rudder.

Because it's a big model and the are going to be 4 x 55mm props pushing on the rudder, I decided to go for belt and braces and machine the rudder from solid Aluminium. Good old ebay came to the rescue again and I got myself a block of Aluminium that should do for the rudder and it's support.

Steps:

1. Draw the rudder on CAD and plot to paper. Cut out plot and stick to Aluminium.
2. Cutout blank with saw and milling machine.
3. Mill the blade section out.
4. Burn hands repeatedly while linishing machine marks out and produce smooth profiles.
5. Give a quick protective coat while building the rudder support.

Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 05:27:57 pm
More
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: John W E on June 30, 2009, 06:18:05 pm
hi  there;
May I just take a moment of your time so I can make sure I have this clear in my mind your control set up?
So, what you are basically doing is you have 3 x speed controllers which control x 4 motors?   2 outboard motors, I take it, are ganged together on 1 speed controller & the 2 centre motors are on independent controllers?

These 2 inboard motors are the only ones being mixed with the rudder function?

So, these are controlled by 2 channels on your handset?

You have a 3rd throttle channel, which controls your outboard motors - and you have a 4th switching channel which switches this channel in and out - in actual fact you are using 5 channels to control the movement of the boat.

What Riggers is trying to explain to you is; with the ACTion P94, you would be able to control 2 pairs of motors - in other words 4 motors.  This is because there are several facilities on the P94 and 1 of them is to add an extra speed controller - so, you would still have the mix of the 2 outboard motors or inboard (whichever you prefer) and the 3rd speed controller would not be affected by the mix, it would just respond to the throttle settings either ahead or astern.
The other function is that you can adjust up to 50% of the mix between rudder and throttle.  This would eliminate the harshness of the mix.   Now, the next piece which I shall mention is my own experience, from when I built a model of HMS Ajax.
  
HMS Ajax is also controlled similar to the way you are doing it, only instead of the Futaba 2.4  6EX mine is the old 40 mg version – same sort of mix facilities on it; and by only using your inboard props mixing you are going to find it difficult to turn the vessel.   What I found was, you have to have the motors ‘ganged together’ in pairs.   In other words one speed controller controlling the motors on portside and one controlling starboard side.
You will possibly find, that having 1 set of props sitting idle, whilst the other 2 are trying to do the work will be more of a hindrance than a help.  
The last thing I would err caution on is slowing down rudder movement;   the model you are building is going to be a fair weight when you have completed it.    Natural momentum of the vessel going through the water, with its weight – it is going to take something to stop/ turn it.  You will therefore require all the power you need and all the movement of your rudder as quickly as possible.
The model I made of HMS Leeds Castle at 1:48 Scale will be something in the region of a similar weight to yours – she carries 3 x 12 volt x 12 amp wheelchair type batteries.  When she is under way, believe me – she takes some stopping  ask Riggers to show you the photograph of the ‘chunk’ out of the side of lake and the state of the bow of the Leeds Castle. 
Food for thought; and I can appreciate where you are coming from – because like me – you like to experiment with your radio gear and so forth.   Best of luck.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: riggers24 on June 30, 2009, 06:46:39 pm
one damaged bow
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: John W E on June 30, 2009, 07:24:42 pm
 %% %% they don't build em like they used to son....   {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: The long Build on June 30, 2009, 08:16:28 pm
Hi Marmoi (Mark)
If I am wright in thinking it is your HMS Dreadnought in this months MB as displayed at the Ellesmereport show last March, and if that is anything to go by this build should be just as stunningly spectacular.

Larry
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 08:23:02 pm
Hi Larry,

Yes that's my Dreadnought in July's MB and she has come on a bit since then, the radio aerials are now fitted and the crew is on board.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on June 30, 2009, 08:35:49 pm
Hi Bluebird,

The four motors are on 3 speed controllers. The outer motors are on individual controllers and the centre pair are on one. The middle two motors are controlled on the normal throttle, the outer two are set up on the flaps and aileron's. The flaps are then mixed to the throttle, giving full control of all 4 motors on the throttle stick, the ailerons are mixed with the rudder, which gives me mixing on the outer pair.

I have been experimenting with my Dreadnought for quite some time and have got the controls working quite well now. If you want to learn how hard it is to stop a battleship that has very small props, then build yourself a Dreadnought   %%

I aim to get my models acting as near as possible to the real ship, I have found that I do not get enough control over preprogrammed mixers, but with the 6EX I can set the amount of mixing for each model and save it.

It may go all wrong when on the water, but experiments so far with other models have proved very successful.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 08:48:26 am
Sorry things have been quite, the show season was very busy this year, but I have been quietly working away in the background digitising the original plans and building the superstructure up in 3D (yes,  will be putting some images on the forum shortly).

In the mean time here is a short movie of the massive foggy unit that MMB built for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXpWRQQlCY

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 03:19:35 pm
Here are some renderings of the superstructure virtual model. This has been drawn to a scale of 1/96 from the original admiralty plans.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 04:58:06 pm
And here is a quick virtual tour  :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkvwzu_OaQ

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: GG on September 25, 2009, 07:26:40 pm
Mark,
       Let me say how refreshing it is to hear of someone prepared to use a "computer" RC outfit to its full potential.
I still find it puzzling to see modellers who have such outfits buying extra items when their transmitters could do the same job.  Perhaps they do not read the instructions?
Good luck with the model, I look forward to reading about your experiences and seeing the finished model perform.  My own ambitions, sizewise that is, have never exceeded about 4 feet, the width of the back seat of our cars.  But, having now bought a car with a hatchback it looks I might be able to go up to 6 feet and a bit.  Please no one tell my wife about these plans!
Regards, GlynnG
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 09:31:43 pm
heres some of the  G3 BATTLESHIP  will post a few more :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 09:39:29 pm
more  g3
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 09:42:56 pm
more g3 pics
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 09:45:49 pm
Hi Glynn,

I must be lucky as it was my misses who bought me the hull  :}

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 09:48:56 pm
hope these pics help you in the build,,   colin bishop sent me these pics a while ago,  they resemble hms nelson so much
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 09:50:27 pm
Hi Brian,

The picture of the area behind the rear funnel and in front of the mastmast is where I am proposing to modify the ship as I want to build the model as just pre-war and after a re-fit in 1936, when hangers and two Walrus seaplanes were added (sounds authentic O0).

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 10:02:06 pm
hi mark  heres some of my nelson 96th scale,   so so alike hope we get to see the finished project    brian_c  :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 25, 2009, 10:11:37 pm
Very nice Brian  :-))

I am certainly going to try and post everything thing on the forum, but I will admit now that my builds are not rushed affairs as I will spend ages getting things right. The current project is to get the guns turning and locking on target and then staying trained as the ship moves. this involves some brain bashing as the rear turret is pointing backwards, but first trials with a gyro are proving promising.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 25, 2009, 10:13:57 pm
a few more of nelson,, when you look at them the resemble the g3  but the washington treaty stopped us from having the g3, it didnt stop hitler with bismark or the japs with their monsters,  any way, yr build is looking good, brian_c  :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Bowwave on September 26, 2009, 03:06:10 pm
Hi Mark This is inspirational  model building  that will  start to  become persparational model building  but in the end a magnificent model  in the making , for sure .  :-)) :-)) :-))
Bowwave
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 26, 2009, 03:26:37 pm
Hi Bowwave, This project is also going to take a lot of room, especially as I cannot get the hull into the workshop, so a major rethink has been going on in the garage and I have built a "test tank" in the garden. The tank is 12' x 4' so should be big enough for the near future.  ok2

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 26, 2009, 03:29:58 pm
Brian, the picture of Nelson's bow breaking through the wave is superb, definately a once in a life time shot there.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Brian_C on September 26, 2009, 07:12:05 pm
hi mark uve not mentioned how long the g3 is going to be, and yr right, you cant rush in with a project that big, nelson took 3yrs to complete so i hope you have lots of time on yr hands, regards brian_c  :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Bowwave on September 26, 2009, 07:34:41 pm
Hi Mark  I   do like that  test tank  of yours .    :-))
I think we may see more  ships that never were ?
Bowwave  :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 27, 2009, 06:26:52 pm
Hi Brian, The G3 is just about 9 foot long and the Dreadnought I have just finished took three and a half years.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 27, 2009, 06:30:48 pm
Hi Bowwave, I have had the railway sleepers for a long time, it just took the appearance of a big model to spur me on to actually build the tank.

Always a glutton for punishment, I am also working on HMS Velox (1/96) and K3 one of the infamous steam powered K class submarines!

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: SinWin on September 27, 2009, 08:16:42 pm
Looks like a promising, and big, project! I loved the smoke setup. Looking forward to seeing more of this ship =)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: srcampb on January 31, 2010, 06:08:44 am
Awesome model project- are there 1/96 8 barrel pom poms and 4.7 AA mounts available? Any chance of getting a close up picture of the hull plating detail?

I wonder what one would have looked like ~1942 in an Admiralty Disruptive camouflage like HMS Rodney wore?

Will be a very interesting build to watch- Thanks!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on February 01, 2010, 07:46:34 pm
8 barrel pom poms and the 4.7's are available from Deans Marine and I think John Haynes.

I have attached a picture of the hull plating detail.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: srcampb on February 06, 2010, 06:57:20 am
Thanks for the close-up. I've been eyeing that hull and the Nelson hull for a lonnnggg time. Over here in the states, not very many people will have seen anything like them... Best of luck with the build, keep the thread going!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Jimmy James on February 06, 2010, 07:15:41 pm
What was the proposed Main Armanent on G3--- 14", 15" or 16" ???
Were they to be new guns or like the Vanguard's 15" taken from an older ship???
Freebooter
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 06, 2010, 08:06:43 pm
16 inch guns, as subsequently fitted to Rodney and Nelson.

Colin
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Jimmy James on February 08, 2010, 08:34:18 pm
Thanks Colin
Jimmy :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 29, 2010, 09:04:54 am
Well I have been a bit quite on this project, but I have been busy in the background looking at everything thats got to fit in the hull and also working on a couple of projects for the working features.

One of the new ideas I wanted for this model was training turrets, I have had moving turrets before, but I always feel that they are a bit of a let down as they never stay on target. So this time round with a "Little" bit more space to play with I have been talking to my helicopter buddy and in particular about his heading lock Gyro. Now normally these gyro's are used to keep the tail pointing in the direction it has been set, so I thought why not turn it around and use it in a turret.

The mechanism is now working and I am working on a small circuit to return the turret to midships when it reaches its stops (and not take out the superstructure!)

Video of the working turret here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgZI2mLhOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgZI2mLhOg)


(http://s1.postimage.org/HxPUS.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxHxPUS)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 09:32:49 am
Right, the garden is almost done and a lot of the shows and events are over - back to a bit of serious model making!

I decided that while the weather was good I would use the chance to finish of the propolsion and steering.

The Brass props and Bronze A frames were cast for me by Prop Shop and they made a very nice job of them. I have made the shafts from 316L stainless steel, so should not have any corrosion problems. The prop tubes are made from Brass with Bronze bearings in each end. I added a gravity fed oiling system with a couple of Lathe oilers to act as reservoirs and to control the flow.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 10:02:50 am
Next, I needed to make the rudder support. This was made from the same 10mm plate that I used for the rudder itself. I drew the profile of the original casting from the admiralty plans and stuck it on the plate. It was just a job of milling, filling and linishing to get the basic profile.

I marked out the hull and used a damond disc to cut away the fibre glass. The profile was test fitted and then shaped to fit. Filler will be used to blend the final profile.

Stainless steel pins were added to support the profile. I used the good weather to fit the prop shafts as well while I had everything setup.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 10:05:52 am
Some more pics of the props and bow thruster
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 10:09:05 am
This is the completed rudder assembly, minus the arm. The bottom support has a Bronze bush in it. The rudder tube is Brass and will be bonded into place.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 11:16:03 am
Work has now started on the remainder of the engine room. I propose to build an Aluminium frame for the motors that will support the prop shaft bearings as well. Adjustments will be made with shims under the motor support and bearing blocks.

Engineers have started dismantling the test bed in preparation for the move.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 11:18:50 am
Oh, and if you are wondering, work has been gong on with the conning tower and the detailed drawing is nearly complete. Sorry about the resolution, it's a bit difficult to squash an A0 drawing down to fit on here!

Something to build during the winter!  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: dreadnought72 on August 11, 2010, 11:21:23 am
 :-))

Marmoi, the motors look identical to the big Buhlers I have for my Dreadnought. In yuor model it seems like they're all going to be mounted the same way around. Do you thinnk that two of them running in reverse is ok? I'm not 100% sure about this, and was thinking of turning a pair of mine around.

Just curious.

Andy
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 11:30:30 am
Hi Andy,

I have been running them on the test bed for some time now and have had no problems. I also use the in my Dreadnought and have had no ill affects running them in this format.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 11, 2010, 11:40:44 am
If all goes to plan I hope to have the hull on display at the Birchwood and Leamington shows this year.  %%
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: dreadnought72 on August 11, 2010, 04:20:21 pm
Hi Andy,

I have been running them on the test bed for some time now and have had no problems. I also use the in my Dreadnought and have had no ill affects running them in this format.

Mark

Thanks Mark, brilliant answer. I ran a pair of mine for several hours in forward and reverse to measure the voltage/current over time, and this suggested there was no real bias, other than slow "beats" at full revs (unloaded) pointing to a very slight - handful of % - difference in revs.

Ok. That makes installation easier!

Andy
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 12, 2010, 10:25:26 am
I have done a few multi motor models over the years and have never found any noticeable effect from running the motors in two different directions. The Buhlers are such a nice multi pole motor and they run so smoothly I have been very pleased with the fine control that I have achieved so far.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 16, 2010, 08:36:28 am
Had a few more spare moments at the weekend so got on and machined the motor mounts. Very happy with the result, both just slipped onto the ends of the shafts without any adjustments.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 16, 2010, 08:39:55 am
Work has now started on the supports.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 18, 2010, 08:08:45 am
Managed to get the rest of the support frame built and assembled into the hull, only minor change was to reverse the aft feet as the rake of the hull was too much to get them in.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Prophet on August 18, 2010, 08:16:47 am
Impressive build i must say, those brass props look the dogs kahunas! i have a question on you ships construction, are you putting any supporting bulk heads in to aid in the GPR hull support? your model is extremely long i would have though that you need an internal frame work to stop the hull warping, flexing (to much)?
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 18, 2010, 11:49:46 am
I am just building/assembling all the components at the moment so I can arrange them in the hull, once happy I will know where all the bulk heads and braces can go and what shape they will need to be, once done I will cut and fit.

I have gone down the road of fitting bulkheads and strengthening the hull first and it always ends with me trying to make a hole or try a squeeze something in.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 23, 2010, 08:42:25 am
With the bad weather during the week, I was back in the workshop and decided it was time to make another of the large components to go into the hull - The speaker box.

Now after some research a few years ago I found that to get the best results from a speaker you should mount it in a round case. Luckily Ikea sell them, although they call them wooden fruit bowls (strange these Ikea people). Having purchased the new speaker case, I marked the cutout for the speaker and mounted a cutting blade in the milling machine and sliced the top off.  To my delight the speaker dropped into the hole with a delightful plop. The case will be drilled and sprayed Black to match the speaker.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 23, 2010, 08:46:52 am
Another glorious day and a chance to get the hull out and this time I thought I had better put the edging on the upper sides of the hull. This has two purposes 1. to stiffen the moulding as the weight was starting to cause deflections and 2. to add backing to the port holes for when I drill them out (How many portholes!).

Had to drain my resources to find enough clamps for this job and even then had to do one side at a time.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 23, 2010, 08:49:50 am
The bow thruster is now fitted in the forward torpedo tubes as can be seen in the pictures above.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on August 23, 2010, 10:56:44 am

Had to drain my resources to find enough clamps for this job and even then had to do one side at a time.

Nice bit of lateral thinking, caulking guns as clamps  :-)) :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 23, 2010, 11:51:25 am
Sorry same principal, but defiantly one handed clamps.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on August 31, 2010, 09:39:26 am
I would just like to say it was good to meet some of you at the Birchwood show over the weekend and the comments and advice were all welcome.

With the bit of sunny weather on Monday and with the holes on the hull now filled and sealed (well almost all), I decided to try ballasting the model to find out what was required to get the correct displacement.

After marking the waterline in a few places the hull was placed on the test tank and gently loaded until it reached the correct level. My estimation of 16-18 kilos of ballasting turned out to be pretty close, so I can now look at building some ballast boxes into the hull.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 03, 2010, 10:32:05 am
Before I go any further I felt it was time to glass fibre over the plastic padding areas.

So with the shortening evenings I set to cutting the mat.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 03, 2010, 10:38:02 am
Once I was happy that the patches would cover the areas correctly I mixed the resin and following the advice given on this forum added some talc to the mixture.

Those who have not read this thread, the talc is added to stop the resin from being sticky after curing and believe me it works  :-))

Once the resin had set, I just had time to stick the rudder servo board in place. This is realised I did not take into account when trialling the ballast, so I will need to look at this area again.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 29, 2010, 08:09:49 am
With the unexpected good weather last week coinciding with a weeks holiday it was straight into the garden and a massive amount of wood cutting, screwing and gluing!

I have cut all the bulkheads now and fixed them in place, ballast boxes have been built and fixed. The battery box has been built a support strips for the terminal added along the side. The two under deck formers have been cut (but not stuck down) for the fore and aft decks. I also took the chance to build a box around the bow thruster to one contain any possible leaks and two deaden any sound.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 29, 2010, 08:17:29 am
When the weather turned wet it was into the workshop and work began on the bilge keels. The G3 has 4 bilge keels and I decided that they should be made of Aluminum as the boat is so heavy i.e.e they will survive a scuffing better than wood would.

I cut and drilled the four keels before machining the general profile, then it was of to the linisher for several hours of hot metal and burnt fingers!  <:(

The keels will now need some gentle forming to fit them to the hull before screwing on.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: dreadnought72 on September 29, 2010, 12:20:43 pm
Once again this build is producing a mine of useful information.

Aluminium for the bilge keels = inspired choice! I've been wondering about wood ones for my Dreadnought, even cartridge paper ones filled with resin, and I've been stymied on this for ages. Like yourself, they're going to need some serious strength when (in my case) I hit something at a metre a second with a 50+kg hull, and while I'd not thought of metal, I think your decision to go down this route is excellent.

Fabulous work, Marmoi!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on September 29, 2010, 08:43:17 pm
I have to admit that I have thought about this problem for quite sometime and experimented with various plastics, but after seeing the rocks just under the surface of the water at the Birchwood show, I soon moved onto metal.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: The long Build on September 29, 2010, 09:00:36 pm
Now the rocks better watch out !!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 15, 2010, 08:30:54 am
Well what amazing weather we have been having, I thought I was not going to get the Bilge keels fitted until the spring, but with the sunshine last weekend out she came again and after some final shaping and some careful drilling, the keels were screwed and epoxied to the hull.

Now it's onto the sound system to get that finished and ready for the Leamington show. If you are coming to the show you should be able to find me as I have built an amplifier in and the base speaker is 75W alone  {-)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 15, 2010, 10:28:49 am
I have been adding more detail to the superstructure and working on the Engineering parts of how all the features will work. Main focus at the moment has been the 3 main turrets.

I have modified 3 Buhler motors to fit some very nice worm drives I picked up at the Dortmund model show this year. These are now running a lot more smoothly than the experimental gearing I made previously.

I am looking at a number of methods to control the gun elevation. The main hurdle being that I want them to elevate individually.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 15, 2010, 10:41:50 am
As an added bit of interest (or confusion), I have decided that if I am building the ship that never was, I should also build it post it's 1934 refit  ;).

So to that end I have been researching the changes that could have been made during the refit, the largest of which would probably be the addition of spotter planes. The Walrus was fairly typical for this size of ship at the time so I felt that would be suitable (also it was nick named the "shagbat" which the belly dancer thought was a fantastic name).

I have inserted the flight deck and hangers just aft of the funnels and reduced the boat deck.

The CAD model has all been drawn at 1/96th scale and adjusted to fit the hull moulding. All items are separate components for ease of modification.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: tt1 on October 15, 2010, 05:17:47 pm
Great build Marmoi, way way way beyond anything I could possibly attempt, but a really interesting thread to follow - so thanks for posting  :-))

              Regards, Tony.

     P.S. are you a member of the Burton Model Boat Club by any chance?
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 17, 2010, 08:05:03 pm
Hi Tony, I am glad you are finding it interesting and yes I am a member.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on October 17, 2010, 08:39:16 pm
marmoi says...... "I am looking at a number of methods to control the gun elevation. The main hurdle being that I want them to elevate individually" ....well yes...any capital ship of this era would have installed individual hydraulic piston motors coupled with helical speed reducers & hence totally independent hydraulic systems]  to elevate each barrel [ordinance] independently

However prior to any engagement [firing] all three systems were syncronized & locked....essentially the only time an individual ordinance would be taken out of sycronization would be for a maintenance function

The loading of the projectile & the silk bags of cordite & the ramming function all needed to be completed at a set elevation which posssibly would have been @ ZERO degrees.......

I have seen old footage of BB63....with ordinance looking limp  {-) ...I have also been in her FWD 16" gun housing......./...very big...old.....& impressive  O0....Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 18, 2010, 08:08:45 am
Hi Derek,

That's very interesting, as I thought when loading and preparing they worked independently, especially if they were not firing a broadside, which would mean that they would have to be independently adjusted for range.

I know that during the first world war that HMS Kent at the Falklands could on use one forward gun at a time because they were both mounted on the same carriage and during the chase of the Nurnberg they could not get a broadside off.

I will have to look into this further.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: dreadnought72 on October 18, 2010, 09:44:09 am
The loading of the projectile & the silk bags of cordite & the ramming function all needed to be completed at a set elevation which posssibly would have been @ ZERO degrees.......

The same mount on Nelson and Rodney (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_16-45_mk1.htm) would suggest loading would be done at +3 degrees.

Loads of facts via that link.

Andy
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on October 18, 2010, 10:20:12 am
Hi all ...with respect dreadnought72 .... O0 ...yes I have read the sign.......in the gun turret with ordinance looking FWD 16" gun housing......./...very big...old.....& impressive

LOADING must be @ ZERO elevation .....

Like do you want a 3/4 quarter ton [US short lbs = 2000 lbs/ton or a bit less in OZ tonage [2240 lb/ton]  :kiss: <:(  [non nuclear] projectile landing on your toe?  {-) {-) {-)

Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: pugwash on October 18, 2010, 10:26:33 am
Interesting link Dreadstar - I never realised with had built 18" guns - lots of info though
Geoff
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: dreadnought72 on October 18, 2010, 11:00:11 am
Hi Derek,

A 1500lb projectile on a 3 degree slope, even if that slope is friction-free, will take <80lbs force to keep it in place. So I don't find the listed figure that I quoted for loading angles is unrealistic - but I'll naturally bow to experience and (presumably?) old-style H&S warnings!

Andy
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Bowwave on October 18, 2010, 11:25:48 am
Hi Marmoi  Top draw in every department  O0
Bowwave
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 18, 2010, 11:42:56 am
I've recently been re reading a book on the damage sustained to the ships at Jutland and it mentioned that while many of the British heavy guns could be loaded at any angle of elevation, in practice it took longer to run the guns out after firing when elevated and it was quicker to lower the guns and then re elevate when loaded. Running out the guns and loading when elevated put a big strain on the hydraulic gear and slowed everything up apparently which is probably why additional hydraulic pumps were fitted to many ships during WW1.

Colin
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on October 18, 2010, 12:42:44 pm
Gents...a few points if I may  ;D

The actual [ordinance] barrel diameter if listed as 15"...was something like an inside diameter of 14.87" includling the "helical rifling" ...so the projectile was subjected to two forces >>:-(

1. the explosive force of the charge within the ordinance to propel the projectile ........
2. the constraining force [diametrical interference] within the helical rifling in the ordance length of calliber ...which was used to keep the projectile on or inline with the traget

Remember...caliber is a mathmetical function or the relationship of [length of barrel to length of projectile] over diameter of bore

I am sure these points will be self explanatory.....  %)....

Mechanical computers....yes O0 O0 would have precluded a projectile hoist premission to elevate the projectile up to the barrel breech .... unless a ZERO elevation permissive signal was obtained.......same would have followed for charges & ramming function........Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 18, 2010, 12:44:54 pm
Yes, very good link, especially about the turret rotation and gun elevation speeds.

Makes life a bit easier as the guns are all elevated together as well.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on October 19, 2010, 01:54:26 am
Hi all ...with respect dreadnought72 .... O0 ...yes I have read the sign.......in the gun turret with ordinance looking FWD 16" gun housing......./...very big...old.....& impressive

LOADING must be @ ZERO elevation .....

Like do you want a 3/4 quarter ton [US short lbs = 2000 lbs/ton or a bit less in OZ tonage [2240 lb/ton]  :kiss: <:(  [non nuclear] projectile landing on your toe?  {-) {-) {-)

Derek

 O0 O0 O0 :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 20, 2010, 11:52:34 am
Ok, will now have guns looking and raising like this;
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 20, 2010, 11:53:35 am
and not like this;
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 20, 2010, 11:55:04 am
But, how do you explain this?  %)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: pugwash on October 20, 2010, 12:54:00 pm
Artistic Licence.
Geoff
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 20, 2010, 01:04:36 pm
Looks like a 'colourised' photo to me.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: steve pickstock on October 20, 2010, 02:11:46 pm
Cher is on board?

Would they not do that for a ranging shot?
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on October 21, 2010, 02:10:05 am
In the image "Rodney & Nelson"....Rodney has her A turrett depicted as being higher than her B turrett.  %% %%...which is not correct ....Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 21, 2010, 09:05:02 am
Quote
In the image "Rodney & Nelson"....Rodney has her A turrett depicted as being higher than her B turrett.   ...which is not correct ....Derek

I think it is right if you look at the position of the breakwater. You are just seeing B and X turrets. A turret seems to have been painted out - or maybe it was trained in another direction.

Colin
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: steve pickstock on October 21, 2010, 09:41:11 am
The shadows for a turret are there - they're in the wrong position to be the shadows for B turret's guns.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on October 21, 2010, 10:37:14 am
As Colin notes......A turret seems to have been painted out - or maybe it was trained in another direction.

I must agree Colin  :-))..........the center of the photograph did not capture the A turret.........so the turret must have been trained to port......

This then explains the visual etc  O0 ....Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 22, 2010, 08:07:12 am
Now I know I am probably going to put the Cat amongst the pigeons, but I have been dong more research into the gun elevation and came across this video on Youtube and half way through it definitely shows gun being elevated individually and not as a group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp0Mr5Lcl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp0Mr5Lcl8)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Eric65 on October 22, 2010, 08:38:00 am
There were two methods of firing; Broadsides, where ALL guns fired at the same time, were reloaded and fired again together. This was actually inefficient as by the time you had reloaded and fired again you had usually lost the aim on your target.

The other method was 'salvos' where individual guns were fired and reloaded. A ship like Nelson or Rodney would salvo fire one gun from each turret at 30 second or so intervals. This put 3 shells in the air at a time and spread out the firing into 'continuous firing' without a pause allowing ajustments to firing resulting in improved chances in hitting.
So each turret might have gun No.1 firing, No.2 preparing to fire and No.3 reloading resulting in the guns all being at different angles at all times.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: rsm on October 22, 2010, 10:19:03 am
Here is another vid showing the guns on a Nelson class battleship being elevated separately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IIfjEuN5ZY
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 24, 2010, 08:36:56 pm
Now it's not worth getting the guns right unless you have some sound.

I spent a lot of time looking round for a sound module that would let me have a few sounds to play with, without an engine sound! This is not easy to find, but after talking the Dave at Action I went for the P100 sound module and the additional CD for programming it. I must say congratulations on such a simple yet powerful application  :-)). After a couple of experiments I soon had it working and after reading the extra manual on the CD I had the sounds setup and loaded.

Now as the G3 is not a particularly small boat, I thought I would have a decent sound system. So 1x75W woofer and 1x12W tweeter with a good sized car Amp later, I had a very nice sounding system (good enough to be heard from the Sitting room, while testing in the garden and thats a 12" thick brick wall!  {-)).

I have uploaded a video for you to here the sounds, so follow the link and enjoy  O0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdJlU6fTCYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdJlU6fTCYU)
 
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: steve pickstock on October 24, 2010, 09:19:48 pm
Got this picture in my head of the Indomitable tooling across the lake putting down the wicked beats, man, innit?

Seriously though, nice work.

Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on November 08, 2010, 02:45:09 pm
STOP PRESS

The G3 is setting sail to Leamington this weekend, so you are all invited to come along and say hello.

The model can be seen on the Burton stand and I will be there all day Saturday, hopefully with sounds working.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Bowwave on November 08, 2010, 02:57:18 pm
Look forward to that  O0
Bowwave
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Dave13 on February 03, 2011, 06:36:15 pm
Hi Mark
I don't know if some one has asked this before but how did you make the smoke generators???
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on February 04, 2011, 08:01:31 am
HI,

The smoke generators were built to my specfication by Mark (another one) at Mark's Model Bits (MMB).
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Dave13 on February 04, 2011, 09:59:24 am
Hi
thanks for that :-)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Yarpie on February 05, 2011, 11:51:49 am
Mark,

I've just discovered this thread. Remarkable job! Fantastic attention to detail and a real credit to you.

Are you aware of Alex McFadyen's HMS ANSON? The model (along with his Gold Medal Award winning HMS VANGUARD) is displayed at Beale Park, Pangbourne, Reading in their little maritime museum.

Certainly worth a look for comparison purposes.

Sandy.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on February 10, 2011, 10:31:44 am
Hi Sandy,

Yes I have seen the model in detail and speak to Alex quite regularly about my build.

It's very interesting building a model of a historical ship that was never built and especially as I am dong her after a 1934 refit.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 07, 2011, 09:07:06 am
Went to the Ellesmere spring show this weekend and as the weather was very favourable, took the chance to put the G3 in the water for her first "sea trials".

I must admit I was very pleased with her perfromace and I am sure the manoeuvring will be even better once the rudder is working as well!!!  {-)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Eric65 on March 07, 2011, 10:18:09 pm
She does look good.

How much ballast did she need?
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 08, 2011, 08:00:29 am
Apart from the 12V wheelchair batteries, I currently have another 16 kgs of divers weights fore and aft.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 16, 2011, 02:51:06 pm
Had a chance to do some more work on the turret designs (while her in doors was painting the bedroom  {-) ) and spent a bit of time drawing up the 6" turrets
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 16, 2011, 02:52:47 pm
I am going to keep the mechanism fairly simple for the gun elevation in the smaller turrets and hope this idea will work (another experiment coming up!)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on March 16, 2011, 02:58:35 pm
The two turrets are looking good now and match the photos well.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on April 05, 2011, 07:54:31 pm
I was looking through the forum the other day when I came across the 3D Printing subject

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22134.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22134.0)

and was very interested in the Shapeways site that it mentioned http://www.shapeways.com (http://www.shapeways.com)

As you know I have been doing a lot of my planning in 3D for this model, so I thought I would give it a go and have one of the smaller turrets built so I could try out the elevation method.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on April 05, 2011, 07:57:58 pm
After one minor mishap (posted the model with the wrong scale and it came out 2mm across), the model was soon made and arrived within a week of ordering. I had assembled the four parts (Outer casing, base and two gun mounts) into a smaller kit.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on April 05, 2011, 08:03:36 pm
The material is very strong, but light and the parts were soon parted on the jigsaw and cleaned up on the linisher.

I had allowed for the layered effect on the curved roof of the turret casing in my design, so this was linished back with no ill effect.

This process can handle wall thickness down to 0.7mm, which was not quite enough for me to produce the barrels as well. But it did allow me to build in the 1mm holes for the gun mount axles and after running a drill through them by hand to clean them up allowed me to insert brass pins straight in.

Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on April 05, 2011, 08:06:05 pm
The plastic is also very easy to paint, with no special operations or primers required.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on April 05, 2011, 08:08:14 pm
The question now is should I produce all the secondary armament this way?  {:-{
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 03, 2011, 03:59:26 pm
Not forgotten, but been a bit stalled as the electronics to control the turret movement have had the habit of blowing up on me, so I have rung a friend who is working on the development.

In the mean time I have sat down to look at the Walrus which is another part of this project that has been put aside due to frustration - everytime I tried to do the stringing on the wings then models seemed to collapse.

This time armed with 0.2 Nickel Silver wire things worked a lot better!!! 

I also cut the original cast cockpit off and made a new Perspex canopy and re-glazed it with microstrip. Engine detail was enhanced and the rear gun postion detail added.

I also wanted to make the correct launching mechanism for the Walrus as this is often left of models, and after a couple of attempts got the geometry correct for this.

I am in the process of creating my own transfers and applying them.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Dave13 on October 03, 2011, 06:53:37 pm
Very nice Marmoi I love the Walrus :-)) :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: richtea on October 03, 2011, 07:59:12 pm
Good to see the progress that you have made,
that Walrus is a work of art in it's self.
Regards
Richard  :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: marmoi on October 05, 2011, 09:46:30 pm
Decals all finished, Plane and launching trolley assembled and while I had a spare moment the pilot and two ground crew painted.

I also mocked up a little diorama to help store the model as it is prone to tipping over without support!  {-)

Now to have a look at the recovery crane.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:10:23 pm
Ok, time to do a bit of catching up.

The build has been continuing, but due to work, the forum being down and buying a renovation project in France, updates have not been possible this year.
But now I have a spare moment I can tell you where I have got since Christmas.
Over the Christmas period I sat down and worked on the outstanding issue of the main turrets and their control. I had three ideas for this model that I wanted to achieve;

1.   Turret movement to any position I wanted.
2.   Turret to stay trained on target once set.
3.   Turrets to return to station if target/ship moves out of firing arc.

Many model warships over the years have been able to turn their main turrets, this is not difficult and can be done in a number of ways. However the guns normally just turn to broadside and then return, this is not what happens in real life and real life is what I am trying to achieve.

In real life the guns will train to either side and then once locked on target will remain on target even if the ship alters course until such a time as they cannot fire and will return to their original position until such time as they can be trained again.

I have achieved the turning and I have used a model helicopter “heading lock” Gyro connected to a speed controller to control the movement of the turrets once locked on target. See video at link below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgZI2mLhOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgZI2mLhOg)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:13:04 pm
However I now wanted to control the actions of the turrets when they reach their limit of firing arc and then combine the lot!

Arc of firing for turrets Left and Right
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:13:57 pm
What was required;

Three Turrets to start off in line with the centre of the ship.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:14:38 pm
One of two possible momentary contacts closing (Left or Right signal) would give the signal to turn the turrets left or right.

Signalled to turn Left
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:15:22 pm
The turrets would continue to turn (independently) until they each close micro switches, which would then cut the power to the motors (12V DC). This would be the broadside position.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:17:04 pm
The Gyro would then be activated and control the turret movements (with manual overide from the transmitter). The GYRO is currently activated on the transmitter.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:17:40 pm
If the central turret could trigger any of the end of firing arc micro switches, then the turrets should be removed from Gyro control and return to station, to await further instructions, in  their original position in line with the centre of the ship.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:18:13 pm
Again controlled by micro switches at the centre of travel. Once all three are back in position the system should reset to its original state.

These were what I thought were the inputs and outputs required;
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:19:35 pm
Now feeling brave and with a bit of time to experiment, I gathered a few components together and proceeded to produce a test board to try this out, after a short time of working it blew up as I put it through its paces. Having realised what I had probably done wrong I built a second board and yes you guessed it, I blew that one up as well.

Obviously my logic was not and layout of relays was not going together well. So it was time to consult a friend who designs and builds one of circuits for a living! He told me what I was missing was a micro controller to control the actual relays and make sure everything did what I wanted when I wanted. Now not being experienced in such circuits he volunteered to design and build the circuit for me and after a few weeks presented me with a solution.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:24:37 pm
While the circuit was being built I worked on the design of the turret base as I had a lot of micro switches to mount along with the motors and gears. I built the design up in CAD over a weekend and soon came to the conclusion that if I made this in the traditional workshop method it would probably not be strong enough to support everything and endure me testing out the workings.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:26:09 pm
So I went down the route of using 3D printing again using a strong Nylon material.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:27:40 pm
This proved to be an excellent choice as the finished articles were indeed very strong and needed no extra support to mount the motors and switches.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 25, 2012, 03:28:59 pm
With the major parts in hand it was now only necessary to build a test board and wire the lot together (Only! %%).
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 26, 2012, 08:22:29 am
I found I had to use a Bobs Board for the Gyro control of the turrets as I could not find an electronic speed controller that could handle the output from the digital gyro.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 26, 2012, 08:22:29 am
After a couple of false starts the turrets began to operate and with a couple of changes/updates to the programming the turrets stopped breaking of the guns and I looked for a way to elevate the guns individually to give that final look of realism.

The answer to my problems was found on Hobby King in the form of under carriage controllers.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 26, 2012, 08:26:11 am
The guns and turrets are now under going rigorous testing to make sure they do not go wrong and crash into the rest of the model.  >>:-(
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: essex2visuvesi on July 26, 2012, 10:38:41 am
Speechless!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:05:08 am
Well take a deep breath as there is more  {-)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:15:31 am
So what next?

Well I am still working on the main superstructure and its modifications during the re-fit, with a mind to having a lot of the parts photo etched. So I turned my attention to the next large piece that needed looking at the Funnels.

The original builders plans showed that they had proposed twin in line funnels as below;
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:17:05 am
However in-line with practice during the 30’s I decided that would give this area a makeover and replace the twin funnels with a single trunked funnel and as I have wanted to build one of these for a while and I also wanted to do it correctly and build it twin walled.

I drew up the new funnel and was amazed at its size.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:20:45 am
Undaunted I made some trial pieces but soon became concerned over the distortion and rigidity of such a large hollow structure.

I even tried scaling down the real life bracing.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:23:50 am
But this just added to the distortion and made the build a major 3D puzzle!

At this point the Tax man came to my rescue (yes that’s right the Tax man), he sent me a letter apologising for skimming of too much money from my pay and promised to send it back to me, which was nice as the cheque had actually turned up the day before!

So it was off to the bank and get the money in my account before the Belly dancer found out I had it.

While the bank wrestled the money out of the government, I did some re-designing of the funnel to make it suitable for 3D printing. I split the main funnel in half and added some joining detail, removed the funnel cap and added some finer detail, then modelled the heat shield. With everything in place I sent my order in and went on holiday.
When I came back there was a box waiting for me with some very large parts in it.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:25:57 am
It was with great relief that when I dry fitted the parts together they all fitted perfectly and the strength of the funnel was just as I had hoped for.

I rubbed the two halves down with wet & dry and then gave them a few coats of spray filler (rubbing down in between coats with fine wet & dry).
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:31:49 am
I then turned my attention to the inside of the funnels.

Being such a large funnel I knew that a lot of you would want to stick your nose inside and have a look, so I took the opportunity during the redesign to add a few holes inside each half for supporting girder work.

This worked out really well as the funnel also acted as a soldering jig during frame construction.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:35:41 am
Once the frame were complete, I added more girder work around the walls, then a couple of ladders and platforms for the poor idiots who had to climb up and down inside.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:38:27 am
Next part to work on is the Funnel cap where I added cleats to tie down the canvas cover and the internal railing.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 09:45:24 am
Now I have to get busy with the brass wire and make the canvas support assembly.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Dave13 on July 27, 2012, 10:45:22 am
Hi Marmoi
Your funnel looks really great!  :-))
Dave:)
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Martin [Admin] on July 27, 2012, 11:55:51 am
 O0 ... I'd be happy with just the CAD drawings!   :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Liverbudgie on July 27, 2012, 12:14:03 pm
I think highly unlikely that the funnels would have be trunked at any stage of their lives, simply because there would have been no need to do so. The only reason the QE's had theirs done was to reduce smoke interference with the bridge and foretop. This is a modification to far and disfigures what was or would have been, a very pleasing design. All in my view of course.
LB
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 12:27:10 pm
Hi Martin,

Here are a couple of CAD pics just for you to pin on the bedroom wall.  {-)

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 12:34:48 pm
My reasoning for the trunked funnel was as follows;

1. The flight deck and hangers would have been affected by smoke from the forward funnel.

2. The additional AA deck on the back of the superstructure would have been affected by smoke.

3. The turret between the superstructure and forward funnel would have been affected by smoke.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Bob K on July 27, 2012, 12:50:52 pm
I am really enjoying this excellent build, especially the way you are using 3D CAD and 3D printing to full advantage.  I only wish I still had access to 3D CAD !
Which software and printing equipment are you using?
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Liverbudgie on July 27, 2012, 12:55:42 pm
How so? Trucking the funnels would not have made the slightest difference to these positions. Smoke did not adversely affect catapults or AA in similar positions on other ships, large or small.

LB
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 27, 2012, 01:32:55 pm
I use Inventor for my modelling, but there are plenty of other 3D modelling programs around now.

I do not have my own 3D printer I use shapeways.com, they can supply the parts in a variety of materials, all you have to do is upload your model and choose a material.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Colin Bishop on July 27, 2012, 03:10:30 pm
I have to agree with LB. Trunking of funnels on capital ships and many cruisers and even destroyers during the period was to prevent backdraught affecting the bridge and control positions in certain wind conditions. There is a lot of information on this subject in Burt's 'British Battleships'. In some ships it also enabled the bridgework to be extended aft to provide extra space for new equipment and control facilities.

In the G3s the separation of the funnels from the bridge by X turret would have obviated the problem.

The usual solution to smoke interference aft of the funnels was to raise their heights, this applied to both warships and merchant vessels.

Colin
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 31, 2012, 07:57:17 pm
With the rain returning this week, I had some spare time in the workshop to work on the wire assembly.

I started by making the base sections and laying them into the funnel cap. Then the main spare was then shaped and soldered in place.

With that in place I started making and placing the side spars.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 31, 2012, 08:01:56 pm
Once the side spars had all been soldered in place, The angled end spars were cut , ends angled and then soldered into place.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 31, 2012, 08:11:00 pm
I then had to make the supporting plates for the joints.

The centre plates were cut from Brass sheet and the end circular plates were turned on the lathe.

After a quick dry check the plates were soldered in place.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: pugwash on July 31, 2012, 08:51:02 pm
Mark the Brasswork on the funnel is excellent - I though at first it was done in 1/72 or bigger until I went and checked page 1.
A really interesting build

Geoff
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 31, 2012, 08:59:46 pm
Yes sorry it's 1/96th. I should have put something in the shots for scale.  <*<
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on July 31, 2012, 09:03:14 pm
The last part to finish the funnel cap was the outer ring, which was first formed to the correct shape and then soldered from the complete side around the ends and then along the open side until the two ends were matched and closed.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on August 01, 2012, 01:39:57 am
very nice brass work , having seen the boat some time ago at deans and at another venue your build is coming along great, jut one question how expensive is the rapid protortyping for say the the gun turrets.

 thanks

 Peter
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 01, 2012, 07:59:36 am
Hi Peter,

The 3 rapid prototypes for the turrets came to £110 including shipping.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on August 01, 2012, 07:18:24 pm
thank you for that information , it is not bad when you consider you get  unique parts that would be difficult to make and would also take a long time as with the fennel it would be very difficult and you would have to vac mould and it still would not be a patch on your system.

Peter
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 08, 2012, 08:25:01 pm
Right, now for a bit of wood working, namely making the bases for the funnel.

I used 5mm play for the top and bottom and cut them out on the jigsaw. Once sanded I fitted the two parts together with 10mm spacers.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 08, 2012, 08:27:06 pm
The side walls were then applied using 1/64th ply
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on August 09, 2012, 12:46:16 am
are you going to pump water vapour up the funnel ? if so water vapour has problems with small tubes feeding it , you may need to do a test if you are going to use the size of holes you have in the base of the funnel , you may have to go over to oil  based smoke  :((

Peter
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 09, 2012, 08:40:24 am
Hi Peter,

The holes in the bases are just for the air intake to keep the fans fed, the two 20mm connections are for the vapour.

The fogging unit was special built for this model and tests have shown that it should produce enough vapour. Follow the link below to have a look;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXpWRQQlCY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAXpWRQQlCY)

Because the funnel is designed with a twin wall I can draw air down as well as push vapour up, see pic diagram below.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: raflaunches on August 10, 2012, 02:42:38 pm
Hi Marmoi

Fantastic to see your build log, I have been watching your progress from the beginning when you bought the hull from Ron Dean! Sadly the last time I saw you was at the National Model Boat Show where you showed me how the turrets worked, have to say that is the best method I have seen to rotate all the guns smoothly and all together and individually. Unfortunately I probably won't see it again this year since I am in the Falklands until late November <:( but I can see you have done a fantastic job so far and I hope to see the Indomitable next year!
Best regards

Nick B
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Yarpie on August 10, 2012, 02:58:32 pm
Mark,

what an astonishing build. :-))

Great, great attention to detail and supreme patience.

Every aspect has been researched to the N'th degree.

It really is a credit to you and I'm in awe of your skills.

Sandy.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 10, 2012, 05:59:33 pm
Thank you both, I am enjoying this build, the research is very interesting as I am trying to get things working correctly, while trying to get into the ship designers heads of he time.

The indomitable will be off to Haydock park in a couple of weeks, where I hope to be demonstarting some of the features and the new funnel.

Mark
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 11, 2012, 10:09:50 pm
Actually had a nice enough day to get the hull out today and fit the funnel to the fogging unit and it is looking good so far. I won't steam it up until the inside has been painted as I don't want any corrosion on the Brass work.

Remembered to put a 50 pence piece in for scale this time!
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on August 14, 2012, 03:22:12 pm
3D PRINTING

I have been asked about how the 3D printing technology works, so here are a couple of videos.

Main funnel halves -Strong White flexible Sintered Nylon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aBNGnfoGGfQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aBNGnfoGGfQ)

Funnel cap and heat shield - Ultra detail material

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Im64nPb9Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Im64nPb9Y)

(Sorry about the naff music  {-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:13:18 pm
Okay, I have been a bit quite on this project for a while, but that has been a combination of being very busy at work and large amounts of bad weather which means I have not been able to get the boat out to work on it  >>:-(
Plus a couple of other projects that were at least modelling related  :-))
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:29:13 pm
At the end of last season, I had a couple of weekends free (does happen now and then), so decided to get to work on the design of the main deck. So with a sheet of 8x4 5mm ply and my trusty pencil I set about cutting the sections out and fitting them.
 
I have decided to cut the deck into sections as it will be awkward to handle as one long length, so I have made breaks at the forward breakwater, just after the mid sections turret, just after the funnels and aircraft hangers and finally at the end of the stern accommodation section.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:31:47 pm
I then cut a glued support rings for the main turret barbettes.
(I am not looking forward to moving the turret electronics and wiring to the new deck from the test board - but that will be another task  %%
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:37:30 pm
I then moved up a level and started building the main sections of super structure that will sit on the deck in order that I could work out where everything had to be placed and how it would fit.
The areas to look at were
1. The island for the main forward supper structure / bridge
2. The funnel island
3. The rear accommodation and workshop area
4. The Walrus seaplane catapult deck
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:44:45 pm
1. The island for the forward superstructure / bridge.
As I have mentioned before I am planning to make the bridge structure from Photo etch, so I needed to build a solid base that would allow me to slide the structure over and hold it in place. I am also going to use two 1.2W LEDs to shine up frosted Perspex tubes that will in turn illuminate all the decks.
 
As access is not required through this point in the deck, mainly because the foot print is so tiny I decided to use a 10mm block of Tufnol so I could mount the LEDs in it as well.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:51:48 pm
2. The funnel island
The main profile was cut from mdf (this will all be faced in the end, but will give me a lot of strength) and then top with plywood.
The front angle section of the cowling that runs up from the boilers was again made from mdf and milled to the correct profile
Sections were then cut out at the rear for the two Walrus hangers and the two bases for the funnel that were made previously were aligned and holes drilled through
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 02:57:10 pm
3. The rear accommodation and workshop area
Again the profile was cut from mdf and covered with plywood.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 03:17:18 pm
But this time I had to allow for a small area of flying deck around the turrets to I routed out the plywood in that area and re-fitted with thinner ply, this area will be eventually planked so the matching of grain is not a problem
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 03:21:38 pm
As I had moved the main workshops to make room for the Walrus's I have placed part of the workshop where the ships boats were once stored (compliment of boats reduced after re-fit), along with the new position for the rear mast.
 
Another workshop will go between the two hangers eventually.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 07, 2013, 03:24:23 pm
4. Tha catapult deck
 
This area will be removable, but must interlock with the adjacent areas as can be seen above and below.
 
So that's me up to date for the moment.  O0
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 06:55:53 am
With the funnel island built, I thought it was time to get on with the funnel, so the inside assembly was given a good clean and prep and then sprayed Satin Black to give it a good sooty look.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 06:59:39 am
The two halves were then pinned and bonded together and the remaining seam filled, sanded, spray fillered and then the whole funnel given a final smoothing with 1200 grade wet and dry.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:03:38 am
With the casing complete it was now time to think about the external detailing, the top strip was applied using micro strip and then the various fixing holes for the top pulleys and main steam pipes were were out and drilled at 0.7mm.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:25:45 am
Now for the interesting bit!


The steam pipes on a trunked funnel were extension from the original combined, so the forward funnel pipes were a convoluted piece of workmanship and twisted around the funnel.


I looked and experimented with both Copper and Aluminium tubing and after some trials decided to go with the Copper as i could get tighter bends without the collapsing.


The tubing is best bent using bending springs as it will prevent (as much as possible) the tubing from folding.


The Aluminium tubing I had was used for the straight pipes.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:38:58 am
So, over the next couple of days I gently bent and teased the tubing into shape, taping it in position as I went.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:41:57 am
The pipe fixings were made from Jokita copper eyelets which were opened up and enlarged using pliers and a piece of the tubing.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:45:30 am
When I was happy with the shape and position of everything the pipes were fitted in place permanently.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:46:44 am
The next part of this stage was to fit and glue the heat shield in place.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 07:52:22 am
Then I used some micro rod to form the ships horn pipes and fixed them in place ready for me to build the forward platform.


The rod was too small for fixings, so I applied it directly to the outer surface of the casing.
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: derekwarner on June 27, 2013, 07:56:11 am
Marmoi ....I found the K&S tube bending springs a PIG of things to use  >>:-( ....but you have no choice as your application displays non constant radii with the sets of tube
You may find using a fixed former.......[known radius] [the neck of a bottle %) ] to lay the springs against O0
Annealing the copper or brass tubing also helps
My solution was to use the K&S fixed radius tube benders.......... Derek
Title: Re: The ship that never was - G3 - HMS Indomitable
Post by: Marmoi on June 27, 2013, 09:13:16 am
Hi Derek,


I have all sorts of pipe benders and if I don't have what I want I will put a bit of bar in the lathe and machine the right size groove, but this job was definitely more artistic as the bends went in all sorts of directions and therefore, by using the springs you can gently adjust the bends and forms until they fit correctly. You cannot do this with tube benders.