Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Solitary Sailor on June 27, 2009, 04:55:43 pm
-
Hi Guys
Just finished ... well not quite...but almost. She has been in the water, but I'm having a few stability problems, probably due to her length to beam ratio as much as balance...being 78" long, with a beam of just 7.75" at the max, with most of it actually about 6", makes her easy to role.
Anyway, do you think she might be up to taking on that big fat monster of "P & O's" in the neighboring thread <*< Nah... most probably just get swamped knowing my luck :embarrassed:
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7018/35183316.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1999/33657584.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
-
Here's a few more views
-
Last ones 'cause I know how you all like pictures :-))
-
The truly observant will notice that these photos were taken at various stages of completion. No flags or decals installed as yet ... that's on my "to do list" O0
-
Nice looking model, you have done an excellent job but as my mate Bluebird would say, you just gotta paint those anchors. Mind you he would say it with a Geordie accent so you probably wouldn't understand him. ok2
-
Hi Richard
I know what you mean. I have an Irish friend and I only understand every third word or so, and I'm a Brit, but thoroughly Americanized now. {:-{
Oh, and thanks for the compliment. I'm not up to museum standard, but I do have a lot of fun building them, far more than sailing them actually, if you know what I mean >>:-(
-
Looks great to me :-))
-
Wey wey aye blurk richard
ah am usin me best possible geordie in the hope that wor canny marra can understand wot those muckle breet shiny things at the front iv the boo are - divenee nee't tuh be painted a dark culor.
is this canny enough fo' yee wor marra richard - or wud yee leek wor tuh translate it fo' yee? why ah blurk
but good canny model like man :} :} :} {-) {-) {-) {-)
aye man
john bluebird
-
O0 sigh!!!!! OK ... I guess I'd better put those shinny anchors on my "list of things to do" ... So, message understood Bluebird. The good part is that it will be easy to do, as they are actually hanging by the anchor chains, so all I have to do is un-loose the chains off of the capstan and out they come :-))
-
How are you getting on with her stability?
Bob
-
Bob
As it's all about lowering the center of gravity, I'm going to attack the problem from underneath... not exactly scale I guess, but what's a modeler to do, let her sit on the shelf, or brave the perils of the high seas, hanging on a wing and a prayer <:(
Given that the interior of the hull where extra ballast would normally go, is absolutely full of the running gear, I shall have to attach something on the underside of the hull...something not too obtrusive. I have cast a lead weight of 3 lbs approx. about 12" long, and 3/4" wide, which I can fix on with some fiberglass; I just have to figure out at what point along the length of the hull to attach it, so as to keep her on an even keel. However, I also need to make sure that that weight is not too much, as I don't want her to settle below the water line at one end or the other <:(, As long as I get the balance right I can of course, make that black waterline mark a little wider. :-)
She sits very nice and square on the present waterline mark when stopped or even when sailing in a straight line, but put the helm over and I'm one very nervous 'Master and Commander' ... especially as the lake where I sail her, is quite deep and dark in some places
-
That seems such a shame.
What batteries are you using?
For scale appearance would you consider removing as much as possible and laying some lead flashing on the inside of the hull?
Bob
-
Hi Bob
I have considered that, However 3 lbs of lead is quite a lot, so I'd have some considerable removal work to do. Maybe if I made a series of castings, thereby making them much smaller, I may be able to accommodate them in some form of satisfactory manner. Since nothing other than the actual lead casting has been done so far, I can always try that first.
Part of the problem is that by just placing extra weights into the interior bottom of the hull, leaves them liable to shift while on trials, which makes for some very hairy experiences ... fortunately I don't have any hair, so that's a weight off my shoulders :}
As you may be able to tell, I am a little frustrated with this problem now. I've tried a few things already...with NO success. >:-o
-
What batteries are you using?
Bob
-
As to the batteries. I am using a pair of NiHm 3300 7.2 volt, wired in series to give 14 volts, which give a reasonable run time with the pair of "Beuhler LP800 motors now installed. I originally had a pair of "MFA Torpedo 850"s installed, wired to a 12 volt Gel cell...much too fast, and with too much mass above the waterline.
Here are a couple of photos of the interior. As can be seen, there's room towards the sides, just not much along the centerline.
-
There does seem to be a lot in her all sitting on wooden bearers above the keel.
I ask the questions as I had a mate who built one of these and after a bit of different ballasting had a stable (relatively) model.
The solution we came to was to line the hull with lead. In this hull 3 lbs isn't much on her draught.
To keep from putting an external keel on her all I can suggest is to do as he did but she will sit deeper in the water if you are only 3 lbs away from her draught.
Warships do have quite a variable draught from peacetime to war load and on sailing were usually far deeper than the waterline.
I am pretty sure his had a deeper boot topping too.
Bob
-
Hi Bob
Thanks for the info.
She already has 8.5 lbs of lead ballast, all mounted below the waterline and along the centerline...just not visible in those photos. I guess I'll just have to get the pot out and cast some smaller lead weights
-
Please don't put an external keel on such a nice model.
Even if she sails a bit deep it would (in my opinion) be a better option than a keel.
Where are you BTW and will you be sailing in fresh or salt water?
Bob
-
Sunny South Florida... where it's hot and sweaty
Fresh water...there's a lake right outside my back door...complete with Imported palm trees :D
-
Whoops ... just noticed embarrassing missprunt in subject header...
Should read - (Wair conversion)
I know it was a warship, but.... :embarrassed:
-
Yes nice and warm,
I am just back from Pensacola where we sat alongside for 3 weeks then Panama City Beach for a few days!!
Bob
-
Hi ya there Solitary Sailor
Looking at your pics of the internals on your model, I notice you have what look like 2 speakers mounted on the side of the vessel - I am wondering, is there any way you could mount these speakers at the bottom of the hull, facing up over???
If you could do that it may/should improve your buoyancy - this is because no double you will have had to add weight to counteract the weight of the speakers on the side. Also, underneath your speed controllers, do you have any room there to add 2 blocks of lead for ballast? If you remove the timber support that the speed controllers are mounted on and mount them directly on top of the lead weight, this will also give a better heat sink for the speed controllers. Remember though, do not let the two heat sinks of the speed controllers come into contact with one another, as it sometimes interferes with the operation of the speed controller - i.e it causes an 'earth loop'.
As Bob has mentioned, the boot topping around your model, although it looks excellent does look to be on the thin side - this is not a criticism, but, if we increase the width of the boot topping - say double - it gives us that bit extra height where we can play with for ballast. As Bob also says, if you look at some of the waretime Naval vessels, you will see that the water line is quite high up towards the top of the boot line.
Last, but not least, when you sail a destroyer or a frigate, it proves you are a 'real' sailor - because they do roll, it doesnt matter how you ballast them. As a friend of mine, Jim Berwick used to say - you are not a true skipper until you can get the bridge wings wet.
aye
-
I'm not sure you understand what Bob is suggesting. Over on the MWuk site, some of the guys use Lead Sheet laid flat on the bottom, instead of bulky weights.
This seems to spread the weight more evenly on the bottom of the model, making it less tippy.
I'm not sure on thickness, but say a 4" x 4" sheet, 1/8" or 3/16" thick laying flat across the bottom in several places would spread the weight around instead of having it in one spot.
I haven't tried this myself, but intend to if I ever get somewhere to build again!
Beautiful model btw! O0
Darren
-
Hi Bluebird
Surprisingly those speakers don't affect the balance overly much. I think you and Bob may be right about the boot topping, so it will be time to get out the masking tape and spray gun again, and just when I thought I was all done painting my fingers %)
I have just corresponded with Paul Simpson of Sirmar, who seconds your recommendations, although he does say, if I absolutely must put an external keel on her, to make it detachable, so as to preserve the correct outline while sitting on display. I'll try more of the internal ballasting before resorting to any outboard monstrosity. I'll just have to put up with her sitting a little deep in the water
-
Hi Darren
Yes, I understand what they are saying. However, given the spaces which I have to work with, I am better off, casting new, thinner weights, and placing them strategically along the centerline, especially given the extreme narrowness of the beam of the ship, she's like a long thin pencil.
Thanks for the compliment :D
-
I have just been look at my copy of Man o' War on the V & W class. The pictures show that during wartime the boot topping extends, in some cases, to about half way up the second strake down from the deck. So if you extend the boot topping on the model to about this level and have her sitting in the water to that level it will be perfectly correct.
She should also have bilge keels fitted as well and I have been unable to find a picture of a V&W with a propeller guard rail perhaps I should add.
Apart from that it is a nice model though I'm unsure what camouflage pattern you have used. and it gives me a bit of a nudge to make a start on mine, I have hull no. 4.
-
Hi Solenttit
Your comment re the propeller guard is no doubt quite correct, however in this case the guard does have a practical purpose, as the propellers do indeed extend out beyond the side of the hull ... rather be a little incorrect and spare those big props than look correct while accidentally chipping away at the propellers any time she comes alongside a concrete retaining wall....yes that does not say a lot for my helmsmanship <:(
As to the level of the boot topping, I think half way up the second strake might be a little extreme, but certainly raising it up between 1/4" & 1/2" would work quite well, though I think I will need more than 3 lbs of extra ballast to get her to sit that low ... she is pretty buoyant when sitting on an even keel.
And the camouflage scheme .. well that's all my own handiwork; Yep, it's true, I'm a barbarian, not a purist ;D
-
Hi Bluebird
I have just corresponded with Paul Simpson of Sirmar, who seconds your recommendations, although he does say, if I absolutely must put an external keel on her, to make it detachable, so as to preserve the correct outline while sitting on display. I'll try more of the internal ballasting before resorting to any outboard monstrosity. I'll just have to put up with her sitting a little deep in the water
Hi Solitary Sailor you must be a very brave man asking our mate Paul if you can put an extra keel on one of his excellent hulls. %)
I think I would try the route of the lead sheet first. I had a similar problem with my Milford Star trawler that wanted to fall on its side as soon as the wind blew, never got to try turning a corner.
Anyway a layer of sheet lead along the inside of the hull solved the problem. :-))
-
Looks very good! Interesting paint scheme, too - I don't think I've ever seen that two-tone green before on "Western Approaches" style camouflage. Will you be adding any weathering to the finished model? This would certainly help to give it an authentic "Atlantic escort" look.
I'm also planning to build a V&W in future, once one of my current R/C builds (probably the USCG cutter) is finished. This is a 1/64 scale scratchbuilt GRP hull which I picked up second-hand, and I'm planning to build it as the Thornycroft-built (slightly different to the standard Admiralty design) HMS Viscount, as my great-uncle served as chief ERA on this ship during WW2. Ideally I'd like to build my model as Viscount in its wartime Long Range Escort (LRE) fit, but plans only seem to be available for the ship "as fitted" in late WW1, so that's probably what I'll build. I may end up asking for some help with ballasting!
-
Hi Richard
What happened to your Milford Star, sounds like she went to join the choir invisible down Davie Jones way, at least from the tone of your last comment on her. :((
As to a detachable external keel ...No NOOOOO, me not so bold, that was Paul's suggestion %%
As I said elsewhere, I'll be getting the old pot out to do some more casting ... in smaller bits this time, keeping everything to the centerline, and the raising the boot topping.
-
Milford Star went onto the pond upright and came out of the pond on its side. All OK though and with lead ballast is now fine. :-))
-
Hi Edward
Not sure about the weathering, never tried it before. The paint scheme, yeah, that's all my own doing, my dedication to scale only goes so far, as I do this to enjoy myself, not to be driven to distraction ... I'm a rebel without a cause ;D
By the time you get around to building your own V & W I should have sorted out my own stability problems and will be willing and happy to pass along my hard won experience >>:-(
-
Hi Richard
Sorry to hear about Milford Star's little fauxpass. Glad to hear that the salvage operation was a complete success. I have a similar tale, a while back I built a little model called Marina II, an Atlantic fishing vessel. It was from a kit by Artesina Latina, and was intended as a static model ... so I said "right then, we'll see about that". She made it a little further than the poor old Milford Star, to about the 5th turn she hit. Like you, I was quick to the resue, and caught her before she went down, but not before everything inside got a good soaking
-
hi there Solitary sailor
here is a thought for ya; can you, in your country, still get lead shot/the equivalent - the type of shot I am thinking of is the type of shot they use in 12-bore shot gun cartridges (small round lead balls) or the small lead shot - the stuff the fly-fisherman use. The idea being - set the model in the test tank/bath at home; and then pour quantities of lead shot into the hull and various areas where it accessible - so that lead shot will roll down the hull (inside) to the centre of the keel.
It will therefore fill any little voids with lead shot.
Once she is ballasted sufficiently and correctly you could mix some polyester resin/epoxy and pour this over the top of the lead shot - and this in turn will seal the lead shot in place. The only drawback is that it is virtually permanent. So if it has to be removed, it its a mega/big job.
Worth a thought.
It's a system I have used before - where I have ballasted a plank on frame model, where I had built the internal frames a little too high.
aye
john
-
Hi John
Yea, I can get lead shot here. I have tried that method before, many moons ago, and with quite considerable success, Though you are quite correct, should I ever have reason to remove it, I'd be cursing someone's memory <*<
Oh, and the bathtub, no can do, even with the large tub we do have ... she don't fit ... the model is 78" long. So every test must be at the lake's edge, and it really is a two handed effort getting her out of the apartment, down the stairs, and out to the lake, although I did make up my own model boat trailer, set to carry several different models ... sort of one trailer does all, hopefully including any future models. As a few of the neighbors have mentioned, I look like an overgrown kid pulling my trailer around %) Oh well, what's life for, if you can't enjoy it's little pleasures O0
-
could you not put some form of plastic sheeting down first and then apply the leadshot and resin ? it would still take the shape but not be attached to the boat..
-
bluebird mentioned using resin to fix the lead shot
I know people who used a candle and melerd the wax on top to hold
the shot into place easier to get out then than resin
-
Hi Gingyer
That's a great tip gingyer, thanks O0
-
Given that my photographic technique leaves much to be desired. Hence the flash making the ship look all shinny bright 8) I thought I might try some experimenting, as long as Martin doesn't mind. So here are a couple of new shots sans flash ... a bit dark, but they show the boat without all that shinny brightness, which is a truer reflect of how she actually looks
-
If you want to try weathering I use wood stain. mostly light oak but also red mahogany and dark Jacobean oak. If you use a small brush and let a drop or two of red run down the Hawse pipes followed by a drop of Jacobean oak you get that two tone effect that looks quite good. Swab down the decks with light oak and they start to get that long time at sea look and a few dabs of red oxide here and there make it look as if the crew has been doing repair and maintenance work. The same on the hull brings the ship to life and looks as if she has just returned from a long hard patrol
Freebooter
-
I would disagree I am afraid Jimmy
I was taught to do weathering using either pastels or oil paints
the good thing about these is
the oil paints take about a day+ to dry so f you don't like the result once you have painted it you can wipe it off
the Pastels need to be applied then sealed so you need to put a varnish over it when you are happy to seal it into position
Colin
-
Jimmy. gingyer
Thanks for the tips guys ... I think :o.
I shall have to do a little experimenting before I go near "my precious"
My son is into "Warhammer" and is quite good at painting the intricate details on his many, many figures. To get a weathered look on his models he uses "washes" which I believe are a kind of ink. As I say, I think I have some experimenting to do.
Been unable to tackle the stability problems as I've hurt my back .... again ... groan {:-{ I have however, managed to cut up that long lump of lead, seen in one of the photographs above, and inserted it inside the hull along the centerline, where I managed to find some space. So, with a little duct tape (to stop things sliding around), plus I have a further 3 lbs in bags if needed, I'll find a place somewhere, somehow. I should be ready for new trials as soon as mother nature lets me out again. <:(
-
If you have never weathered before
I would suggest getting one of those 1:35th scale tanks
and using that for experiments once you have painted it and weathered it
spray it again with primer an start again it means you can use and abuse it
then when yo are happy you know what you are doing put it in a box then
use it again in in years to come to practice other painting techniques :-))
-
Hi gingyer
Great minds and all ... I have a couple of Tamiya 1/35 scale tanks sitting beside my bed, for just that purpose. ;) ;) ;)
-
Gingyer
Pastels and oil paints work OK so doze the dirty water and thinners you clean you brushes in which is great for hi lighting details like plate seams and rivets, certain inks also work extremely well. I don't think any system is wrong as long as you get the desired results. I find that most modelers have their favorite ways of doing it and their favored medium to work in. I have tried most ways and still use a combonation of Mediums at times --- But the choice is allways up to the modeler " Different Ships Different Long Splices"
Jimmy
Freebooter
-
WHOO Hoo Mother nature allowed me out to play today. :kiss: :kiss:
Well after being laid up for a couple of weeks, I finally got to test the boat with some added lead. 1 3/4 lbs between the prop shafts near the motors, and a further 2 1/4 lbs under the bridge structure. The boat still lists a little to port, nothing either a little shifting around wont fix, or maybe some small extra ballast will do the trick. She now sits very slightly over the existing boot topping, so if I extend it up about 1/4" it will be correct.
Still better to slow down for the corners, but no longer looks like she might capsize coming about. So for reference, there is now about 12 3/4 lbs of lead, plus motors, electrics, batteries, sound system, fuses, and radio system on board. There was a light breeze blowing which did not affect the stability in any noticeable way. But it's hotter than hell over hear right now, I was sweating in my shorts and sleeveless T shirt, while simply handling the transmitter; my poor crew must have been really sweating it in their "Northern Approaches Foul Weather Gear" ... <:( sorry lads
-
:-))i 'd Like to see some pick's of her wnderway---- Such a large model must look very life like...
Freebooter
-
Sorry Jimmy, by the time I remembered my camera the light was fading, {:-{ so I didn't get any shots of her yesterday. Still there's always next weekend, weather and work permitting :-))
Surprisingly, when out on the water, she just looks so very small, unless very, very close.
It was a big relief to see her perform without all the nerve racking drama of a ship in immanent danger of foundering, even on the calmest of waters. She runs well, with neither the motors, nor the ESC's getting hot, or even more than slightly warm for that matter. She is also a very dry ship ... no water at all shipped while out on the lake.
I have to say, I am very pleased with this semi kit from Sirmar, Paul does produce a very nice product. As with any "semi kit", there is much for the modeler to figure out for themselves. But with a little experience, and some common sense, there was nothing difficult about the construction.
At the outset, I had determined to make this a functioning model, and given the great space inside the hull, there was lots of room for stuff, however, I was surprised at how quickly I managed to fill almost all of it up. Almost all of the length of the ship has removable decking for access to all the bits and pieces, which meant that everything had to be easily removable and just as easy to set back on. Given the structure of this particular ship, there are large sections along the length of the ship where the deck is just flat, and so no way to make any type of combing, and so the removable deck sections simply lay on the longitudinal frames, so I am not too sure how she would fare in some blustery weather. Still, as most times, the weather here is hot, sunny and relatively calm, I doubt that will be a problem
My problems with the stability, obviously stemmed from the insufficient ballast which I originally set in the lowest part of the hull, now corrected thankfully, and with out any unsightly external additions ... we live and learn ... even us old guys :embarrassed: Thanks for the prompting guys. O0
Anyway, pictures soon ... I hope.
-
On the Water
Finally got around to taking a few pictures on the lake. The boot topping is now raised to 3/8", but of course, I managed to scratch a small section of the new paint getting the model out the door <:(
Still, all in all, quite successful. She now rides very nicely ... still a little down by the bow, so I still need to move some of the ballast more towards midship .. ie away from the bow.
There was a fair breeze blowing when I first went out, which while enough to push the whole boat sideways, still did not affect the stability unduly. :-))
-
A few more
-
One more and then time to head homeftp://
-
Just a couple more. %) %) %)
-
I have a great shot of the model on her trailer, ready to head for home, unfortunately, just a little too large for the forum rules {:-{
-
Hi... :-)) she sits in the water & heels prototypically beautiful ..............Derek
-
Hi Derek ... Yes she does look nice on the water ... and the heeling is now under control, except it's not a good idea to throw the helm hard over, :o :o :o
Here are a few photos taken this morning to show the boot topping and the open layout of the interior of the hull ... see if you can spot where I put all that lead ??? :-X
The framing, although looking almost none existent, is surprisingly robust with virtually no noticeable flexing.
-
Nice job :-)) :-)) All she needs is a cloud of smoke pouring from the funnels (V&W's were notorious for the smoke they made) and the odd streak of rust to look like the real thing
Freebooter
-
Hi Jimmy
She does have a smoke generator, however, at the moment it's disconnected. It is a "Harbor Models" smoke generator with its own built in fan, and brother does she put out some smoke :-)) but it's rated at 12 volts, which given that I have the boat running at 14.4 volts, I'm not sure whether it would burn out the elements or not :embarrassed:. I need to email Harbor Models and see what they say.
-
Harbour models smoke gen---Is that a US make?--- How big is it & whats the price --- Do they have a wed site
Jimmy
-
Hi Jimmy
Yes it is. Here is a link ...<a href=" http://www.harbormodels.com/site08/main_pages/smoker.htm">Harbor Models[/url]
I emailed them yesterday with my query, they have already replied. I have always found them to be very prompt.
It was a little pricey, as you'll see from the link, but my experience with most smokers is that they do not put out much smoke, at least, not for long, this one on the other hand could almost lay a smoke screen. I have mine with it's own ESC ... a little Viper 15 ... works a treat, but it does eat up the juice, and so I need to provide an independent power source or my boat will conk out before I've done a couple of laps of the lake :(( It works fine with the original 12 v 7 Ah gell cell. With the Viper, I can of course just run the smoker on a short leash, but I had to make sure that it could take those extra 2.4 volts before I let it loose on the lake; I didn't want to find out the hard way if it wouldn't >>:-(
So, maybe next weekend, I'll get her out again, and see how she looks with both funnels belching smoke ... even if she wont run for long ... it'll be worth the sight :-))
-
Looking very, very good! The camouflage scheme looks even more striking on the water.
-
SS Thanks for the link, Looking forward to seeing Pic's of the smoke screen
Jimmy
-
Smoke on the Water
-
Some more
-
As predicted, the smoker did a number on the battery life ... no more than 10 minutes run time before the speed dropped off very noticeably. It was a suitably overcast day, (although dead calm waters), so she would have felt almost at home in the northern approaches. O0
-
Last one....promise
-
Actually took a short movie of her ... about 28 seconds ... 20 seconds of which were of empty water in the middle of the lake ... my son, the cameraman was busy talking %)
With this camera, it is quite difficult to get an infocus picture while she is moving, as there is a delay between the actual focusing and the point where the camera shutter takes the picture, that and the low resolution required to post pictures here >:-o, Oh hi Martin ... ho hum %), so it is easier to take photographs while she sits static.
-
Very nice too. Realy adds a touch of realism ---- I checked out that site with the smoke generator... Bloody expencive bit of kit for a few min's running --- I' ll stick with my home made jobby--- It costs about £2.50 a year to run--- costs a few pence to build ---- and gives out smoke for over 45 min's --- the down side is ...people complain about the smell ... they seem to think I stay to windward of them on purpose--- As if I would do a dirty tpick like that!!!
Freebooter
-
Yeah Jimmy
I can see that the smoker will get very little use ... so as you say, a very expensive bit of kit, especially when not in use. Oh well, we live and learn ...maybe the next boat I will make steam powered, although I think that will just make it all that much more expensive %) What we do for the love of our lives O0
-
HERE! HERE :-))
Freebooter