Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: chrise on August 07, 2009, 09:31:21 am
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My hobbies are Model Boats, Model Aircraft, Model Railways, motoring etc & I regularily buy magazines about all of them. I find that I can read nearly all the content of my choice of magazine for any of my other hobbies & find it worthwhile but I am always seriously underwhelmed by the model boating magazines which I can "read" very quickly & having not bothered with large chunks.
Am I alone in this or is there something different about this hobby & its supporting magazines?
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I tend to agree with you on the boat magazines. O0 May be it's such a diverse hobby that we all can't be given what we want every month.
Mark
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I think part of it is that there are very specific and clearly defined areas of model boating which you don't find to the same degree in other hobbies. For instance those with an interest in scale quite often do not find any interest in sail and both probably don't get excited at Omra. A model boat mag has to cater for all these areas so there is the likely hood of not being able to provide a magazine that has content that is interesting to every one.
You mention motoring and motorcycling is a great interest of mine. When you look at the different areas of the hobby though there are specific magazines to cater for each type of area such as vintage, scooters, scrambling etc. so you have the luxury of being able to buy the mag that suits your taste. Model boating does not have anything like the same numbers involved so you would never get the readership to be able to support such specifics as sail, scale and Omra.
So how about providing some form of feedback as regards the types of things you would ike to see in these magazines? Editors are always looking for subjects to include that may be popular with the readership. Have you written to any of the editors or submitted anything to the letters sections?
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In which case, is it not time that the hobby magazines became more specialised, instead of trying to cater for all aspects of model boating? We all tend to have our own favourite section, and although it is nice to be able to see what other disciplines are up to, and admire the work involved, we still tend to take most interest and time reading about our own bit of the magazines.
Danny
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Danny,
A great idea but unfortunately these magazines are commercial and I doubt if it would be cost effective to publish different magazines for the differing areas of interest.
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In which case, is it not time that the hobby magazines became more specialised
In which case, as Bunkerbarge has implied, they would not sell enough copies to be viable. Model Shipwright used to do four issues a year on scale subjects but have now cut back to doing just one large annual issue.
Years ago the then publishers of Model Boats did launch a magazine called R/C Boat Modeller but it never paid its way and ceased publication - and there were probably more boat modellers about then. I can't speak for MMI but I know that, since taking over as Editor, Paul Freshney has made a policy of including more variety in Model Boats so that most boaters are likely to find several things of interest in any given issue.
Modelling generally is a declining hobby with an ageing magazine readership, especially model boating. Youngsters these days are more interested in computer games and electronics. The magazines can only reflect the market that exists - not what people would like it to be.
Colin
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When I first thought about this I concluded that model flying is just that - about flying- and that anybody interested in model flying is inherently interested in flying any model - even though they will only build & fly specific types of model - whilst model boating is about the boats that I like (tugs & work boats) & building them. The sailing is secondary. This effectively removes much of the common ground that keeps a magazine interesting.
It is sad but I generally do not find buying model boat magazines worthwhile whilst I can happily read ANY model aircraft magazine aklthough some are obviously better than others.
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Chris, I don't know if you are in a minority or not. Personally, my building is confined to scale models of a restricted range of types but I still find many (although not all) aspects of the hobby of varying degrees of interest. So, on average i would say that at least two thirds of one of the mainstream magazines is of interest to me. Likewise, whilst boating only shows such as Warwick are of particular interest, I also like Brighton Modelworld which showcases many varieties of modelling.
You say that you are also interested in other types of modelling but clearly your interest in Boating is a bit on the peripheral side which probably just refelects your particular preferences rather than an underlying problem with the boating magazine content. Everyone is different in that respect.
Colin
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Looking back over back issues of Model Boats magazines, I would say the content started to suffer from the early seventies onwards.
Model boats used to be part of Model Maker magazine, and reading through issues from the fifties and sixties was a real treat for me- these were published before I was born, so I'm not looking back through rose tinted spectacles.
Lots of lovely plans ideas and drawings with each issue. When a product was reviewed, like an electric motor, technical data was published with it allowing an informed decision.
The designs of Vic Smeed were and are still relevant today, and he come up with some lovely boats that were both simple to build, but elegant in design. They also performed well.
Another modeller from that era, Peter Holland always came up with some wild an unorthodox designs. I well remember him operating his man-sized RC robots in the foyer at the ME exhibition in the late seventies and early eighties hiding the transmitter behind his back so it looked like the robots were autonomous.
The publishers could do a lot worse than revisit a few of these earlier designs, many of whom are no longer available through the plans service.
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Subculture,
I couldn't agree more that there was more technical content in the old days and I enjoyed it just as much as you do. The problem is that the model boating scene has changed a great deal since then. It used to be the case that if you wanted a model boat you either built it from scratch or invested in the rather limited kit market that existed then - and many of those used scratchbuilding techniques - no ready made hulls then!
Now, if you see somebody with a model boat at the pond, there are very good chances that it is a RTR, was bought on Ebay or made from one of the modern mainstream kits or semi kits. Just occasionally, you will find it was scratchbuilt by the owner.
Most of the old designs are in fact still available, either through the Plans Service or through XPlans (now available via MyHobbyStore) but I don't think they actually sell very many. I think Glynn Guest does a very good job in publishing designs for simple scratchbuilt models and of course he gives up to date instructions using modern materials and adhesives etc. A lot of those old articles used techniques and materials which are no longer available or practical (build a bread and butter hull out of yellow pine using aerolite glue etc.) so the original articles would need to be updated or rewritten. It's certainly a possibility and might make an interesting article project if the right subject was chosen. Is this something others would like to see?
Colin
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I think an occasional look back in time article would be very interesting. Some other mags have done this.
Maybe re-print an old article, from 50 years ago with maybe some discussion/interpretation where required.
That would be interesting.
I do find the mag interesting when I can get it, but only read about a third of it.
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One thing that might be useful to new modellers is a techniques section.
Competant scratch builders would read an item like. 'After this I constructed and installed the wheelhouse using ply and plasticard', and know exactly what was done.
New people to the hobby would maybe be able to take a stab at it, but probably not bother. Why? Because without the know how we will probably make a mess of materials.
So for me, a tutorial on how to mark out, cut, and assemble superstructure would be of great interest.
Another one on how to cut and install window frames and glazing, also of interest.
I bought a couple of DVDs on workshop techniques, some very useful stuff on them, but nowhere near enough. Perhaps 10 minutes out of the 90 were useful. There is a dire need for this IMHO. Not all of us live near expert modellers to ask.
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I think the model boat mags do a great job in general, i like to read most of model boats mag even though my main interest is warships, i still like to see tugs etc.
In this day and age we have online forums which cover most aspects of ship modelling from which i learn loads but i think may well be hurting boat magazine sales, just look at news paper sales if you dont believe me.
Just support the boats mags before we lose them
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If the mags were on-line I would subscribe.
We subscribe to The Economist online. We get text, podcasts and video downloads for $100 per year.
The online would increase the readership overseas I am sure, especially in the very large USA market. I could not subscribe to hard copy of the mags. Too expensive.
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My hobbies are Model Boats, Model Aircraft, Model Railways, motoring etc & I regularily buy magazines about all of them. I find that I can read nearly all the content of my choice of magazine for any of my other hobbies & find it worthwhile but I am always seriously underwhelmed by the model boating magazines which I can "read" very quickly & having not bothered with large chunks.
Am I alone in this or is there something different about this hobby & its supporting magazines?
It's a bit like Mayhem do you read every post , I don't some area don't interest me , but I scan them some time to See if there are any ideas or techniques I can borrow, some month's there are a lot of interesting items then the next I read it in ten min, I do put them in folders because my interest change and I go looking for ideas, you can never get a mag that suits all.
Proteus
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If the mags were on-line I would subscribe.
We subscribe to The Economist online. We get text, podcasts and video downloads for $100 per year.
The online would increase the readership overseas I am sure, especially in the very large USA market. I could not subscribe to hard copy of the mags. Too expensive.
If you subscribe you are able to view past issues on line , so I would have thought that MB would be able to set up a online subscription only which could be less than a hard copy subscription , however I must admit that I prefere to have the magazine to read when out and about.
Re podcast , you mean something like Colin Reading us an article he has written so we don't have to . :} this could include extra footage or something.
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Yeah, all singing and dancing.....
Colin
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I find print & internet very different & research backs me up. Commonly those using the internet will only read half of what they would if printed & complexity kills their interest more quickly.
The internet is very good for moving images and sheer volume - for example this site where you can be interested in 10% & still find plenty of stuff.
I prefer a magazine to study & I can't imagine me sitting on a train or in front of the TV with a webcast magazine & a laptop.
The internet is immadiate -hence our conversation - which magazines do not facilitate.
I had to laugh re Rupert Murdoch saying that "QUALITY JOURNALISM" has to be paid for hence his decision to charge!
I would love to see a video on the web site of a model reviewed etc in the magazine & would effectively be an advert for the magazine.
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Regarding the technical content and the instruction for beginners- why not combine the two in maybe a series of articles showing how an experienced modeller builds a particular model- maybe a scratch build- this would capture the ageing demographic and keep expereinced readers interested- however along with the interesting subject matter why not have a step-by-step box at the side of the pages showing different techniques- so you could show the designing stage- explaining in the article technical details and project summary- then at the side show photos of plans being drawn, lofting techniques, lines diagrams and a couple of photos of the full size subject.
As the series progresses and the articles describe how the hull has been planked and such- again boxes at the side to describe the technique adopted- then same for superstructure, decking, detailing and perhaps also a description to beginners on the importance of knowing the different suppliers and their specialities- for example pointing out that one manufacturer might make fantastic fairleads but their nav. lights leave a lot to be desired so a different manufacturer was sought etc (non-biased of course!)
Greg
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The danger with having to indepth a build, is that it then becomes a part work. With all the inherant problems. I don't think publishers would be fond of this.
The boat I am building now was covered by MM, over 4 months. It still does not have all detail, it couldn't.
If more generic articles, independant of a build, are written as free standing articles this meets the needs of the magazine for short but complete pieces of content.
The example I gave of doors and windows is something that could be transfered to many types of model. And would perhaps be of more general interest to the readers. Whereas an indepth build, of perhaps a years duration, on a tug would be of little interest to me. Even though I would be seeing how a window was done, it would not feel like I was getting a complete anything.
I hope I am making sense.
With regards to online.
The wider readership should lead to increased advertising revenue. That should appeal to publishers.
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TT is right about content. Magazines generally prefer articles that will stand by themselves with a wide appeal. However, short series on particular topics do get space such as Richard Simpson's six piece on model boat steam in MB plus a subsequent follow up.
Also, those people who would like to see this or that in the magazines need to remember that there are people who can build model boats and people who can write. People who can effectively do both are a bit thin on the ground and those that can don't necessarily want to write magazine articles which don't actually pay very much.
With regard to online publishing, I think this is something which will come but, as has already been said, most people prefer to have a hard copy if possible which they can read by the TV, in bed or even in the smallest room. At the moment, on line publication means that you are stuck in front of a computer screen which is not the best environment for concentrated reading. There are also knock on effects. If a magazine already has a significant foreign readership then a proportion of these are likely to switch to reduce their costs. Printing overheads are likely to be relatively static so the unit overheads on the remaining hardcopy readership base are likely to increase. Unless you get your sums and pricing just right you could end up with a reduction in income but I do think myself that a two level subscription will be the eventual way forward. We shall see. MB has some plans lined up for additional subscriber content which should prove to be interesting when they are launched shortly.
Colin
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Whilst I buy boat magazines and find some interest there, guess where my first port of call (no pun intended) is if I have a problem or any kind of question.
The one and only Mayhem.
Colin H.
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Strangely enough I think most of the things being suggested here are already done in Model Boat magazine at some time or another. We are currently on part twenty four of the aviation cruiser Kiev build so you can't say you don't get in depth serialised builds and you have an article every month by Brian King sharing some superb techniques and tips.
Thr trouble is every one wants something specific to thier own needs which gets very difficult to cater for.
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Perhaps one of the problems is that so many people just want a "quick-fix". Personally, I'm not interested in racing yachts (or any other sort of wind power) or fast electrics etc. My interest lies with scale ships. Mainly scratch built, but I do have a look now and again at the "kit" sector. Even when designing and building a marketable kit someone somewhere has had to sit down and work out how to make something. Scratch building is the same. When building any of my models I would say that a good 30% of the time is taken up by looking at a "bit" and working out how to make it.
A lot of the questions asked on this forum come into this category, "what paint", "what glue", "what thickness of Plasticard" and so on and so on. Some are trivial beyond belief. I acknowledge that some are serious and need some thought. But in this hobby there is no way to get an easy-fit manual that is a substitute for a gentle application of the abstract thing called "thought".
Having said that, I can understand why many newcomers to the hobby ask such simple questions. But my answer remains basically the same.....work it out for yourself, and learn from your own mistakes.
I still refer to "mind-jogging" articles and so on, but "mind-jogging" is all it is. Cheers. BY.
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Is the Brian King column back? I haven't seen it in a long time, as Brian hadn't been too well by all accounts. Generally I used to occasionally purchase the mag for that article alone.
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Is the Brian King column back? I haven't seen it in a long time, as Brian hadn't been too well by all accounts. Generally I used to occasionally purchase the mag for that article alone.
He had a very interesting article on trepanning in the August edition. I don't know if he's back regularly but I'm sure Colin will know more.
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I think Brian made a good recovery and, as far as I am aware, will be continuing to write fairly regularly although not necessarily every month.
Colin
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I remember avidly devouring each issue of MB as a teenager as it was the only such magazine I knew of, no internet, and living in the country I did not actually meet another boater until I was 23. My other hobby interests were in a similar position.
A decade ago I gave up all mags as I did not have time to read them, found most stuff had been covered a dozen times over the years and so I already knew more than the expert articles let alone the beginners ones (not just talking boats here).
Now I only buy on holiday to have deckchair reading and to see if the adverts have changed.
Regarding specialisation; I think this is a problem rather than a solution and has damaged other hobby magazines. There are only limitted advertisers. so each time a mag splits or a publishing house starts a 'me too' title the revenue is stretched, the number of articles degrades and people with diverse interests have to fork out more or miss out.
The same applies with exhibitions. The very sucessful and diverse ME exhibition was severly damaged by a rival company and now one of the exhibition venues puts on separate boating and engineering exhibitions effectively doubling the entry and travel costs.
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I subscribe to Model Boats, and receive it, here in Australia, within a week or so of its publication. It actually costs me significantly less to subscribe than buy it in a newsagency, plus I get my mags about 2 to 3 months earlier than I would by buying in a shop here.
As far as content goes, I read and enjoy most of each issue, although I confess to not being at all interested in the OMRA section, mainly because we cannot run IC powered boats on our lake. I also subscribe to Model Rail, as I have been a modeller of British outline railways for over 40 years.
Peter.
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I read Model Boats and Marine Modeler and can usually find at least one article worth reading. I haven't bought a kit in over 40 years as I find them over expensive and any way most of my models are out of the mainstream... :-)) Not only that I find that I have almost no trouble with rivet counters {-)because I build a type of ship that most of then know little about --Sailing medevil warships --- Privateers ---- the odd Pirate or Letter of Marque--- It's great fun and nobody can point at them and say thats wrong ;)I pick up some good wrinkles from the mag's but must admit that sometimes when these people blather on they lose me... so only the gods know how some of the folk new to the hobby follow whats going on
Freebooter
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Like most I buy MB and MMI, and find some items useful. Obviously these magazines can't keep 'all the readers happy all the time' and as long as I keep finding some items of value, I will continue to buy them.
I also find 'Ships in Scale' from the USA to be a usefull source of information. They now have a European Contributing Editor.
It would be a great shame to lose any of them.
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I subscribe to only one magazine purely on a cost basis, and buy the other well known one on an adhoc basis, although the contents are not always to my exact taste, are non the less still of interest. I build scale boats, but within my circle of boat modelling friends are people of other disciplines, the mixed content of the magazine does not lessen the interest, as somewhere within the information printed could be an item useful to me or my colleagues.
The only people who can speed read a magazine do unfortunately have a tunnel vision outlook on the aspects of our hobby, non the less if the content is not to ones satisfaction, the Editors are Human, they can and will; take on board any constructive points that you wish to establish.
One finite item to keep in mind is the advertising revenue available, if this is spread to thinly then everybody suffers.
HQ
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Dear Howard & Tony,
You both raise very pertinent points - and my apologies to others who have replied with similar but I have only had time to read the latter two's Posts.
It is indeed impossible to please everybody all of the time... there are those with interest in fast power boat matters, those with sailing interests, obviously all those with deep interest in merchant marine, navy, tugs, and those with deep interest in all things technical. I would not like to have to run any such magazine covering this subject, since it is a very fine balancing act, and needs a great deal of careful management. I would also not like to have to make a living out of such pbls., as even without the present financial situation, the costs of printing and distributing must be a constant concern.
What I call 'the New Industrial Revolution'... viz., the I.Net - and all it entails - and the increasing paperless society and gnrl. business processes, make for a general situation (whether we like it or not), that is not probable, not possible... but inevitable. The trouble is, if general pbls. become increasingly paperless, it inevitably affects jobs in all sorts of directions... thus why I call why I call what is increasingly going on 'The New Industrial Revolution'. But... if one can eliminate printing and distribution costs, such pbls. we are talking about would be far more viable since all it would require is a subscription cost to view on-line... a very difficult scenario. A very difficult decision, and one I would not like to have to take - I do like to buy gnrl. magazines from time to time, but do 'wince' at things of £3 or so +, and this does certainly restrict my buying, but what are publishers to do??? - printers have costs, distributors have costs, postage costs (if they are sent out), and the retailer must make a profit otherwise what point him/her stocking same. All in all not easy, and just yet another symptom of the World we live in today sorry to say.
Regards, Bernard
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Just noticed the typo..
"thus why I call why I call what is increasingly going on 'The New Industrial Revolution'."
Should read: "thus why I call what is increasingly going on 'The New Industrial Revolution' "
Regards, Bernard
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I think this is just a continuation of the process of post-industrialisation.
Britain was the worlds biggest manufacturer in 1890. More than half of the worlds manufactured goods were made in GB.
Now Britain is a service industry.
Jobs in traditional industries went, forever. New jobs were created. The trend is for service and hi-tech jobs at the moment.
So print jobs will be replaced, as the need for printed product reduces. But there will still be a need for advertising. And in an increasingly global economy these advertisers are increasingly becoming international traders. I know for a fact that there are several model boat traders on mayhem sending stuff out to China. I know because I am the customer. This would not be possible without the internet. Look on the RC groups website, lots of advertising on there, most traders send overseas, another benefit of the website.
The internet opens up new markets. This creates new jobs in web publishing, advertising (and selling advertising space), specialist manufacturing, supply, and logistics. So it is not all doom and gloom. It is a 'New Industrial Revolution'
People bemoan the decline of the UK economy. In 1900 we were No.1 in the world, by 1903 we were No.2, and by 1910 we were no.3, today UK is no.6. But this is a relative decline (compared to other who grew faster). However in absolute terms the UK economy has grown. GNP and percapita income (in real terms) have increased. Notice also the use of the term GNP (gross national product) and not GDP (gross domestic product). The term GDP does not apply anymore, it is about the money made at home. GNP includes all the money made by the UK multinationals that is comming back to UK. Most of it in the service industry.
The past is slipping slowly behind us, it always did. The only thing that has really changed is the rate of progress. But it is progress.
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In answer to the question, I subscribe to both UK mags and I find something of interest in almost every issue and I generally read through even the less interesting stuff. I favour MB, I find editorially MMI is a bit naive.
I used to enjoy the free plans but in recent times they seem to be designed either for the very new boat modeller or the very experienced, something in between would be nice
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As has been said before, to some extent the modelling magazines have to take what they can get which obviously influences the content. The Internet is certainly a fine thing but Forums do not in themselves replace the magazines, they are complementary to them. Forums do not generally commission and publish build and other articles, nor do they publish plans or even give out free ones. Only a very few of the build and other threads you see on Forums would be up to the publishable standards demanded by a magazine, useful though they are. If plans were not available from sources such as MyHobbyStore or Traplet then usable drawings would be very hard to get hold of indeed as the material you get from museums, ship owners and shipbuilders is not aimed at the modelling community and can be difficult to interpret if you are not experienced. Modelling plans strip away all the unnecessary detail to concentrate on what is useful to the modeller and it takes some special expertise to be able to do that which usually has to be paid for. Years ago I built an Isle of Wight ferry from National Maritime Museum plans. Model Boats ran it as a feature article and commissioned a modelling draughtsman to redraw the plans in a suitable format for modelmakers.
Many boat modellers do not frequent internet forums at all. Indeed, the entire membership of Mayhem (of which only a relatively small proportion is active) is only a very small fraction of the combined monthly readership of MB and MMI who all pay for their reading material. This does suggest that the magazines will be with us for a while yet as they continue to underpin the hobby. The internet certainly opens up new areas and is invaluable for answering questions, sharing practical knowledge and encouraging informal contacts across the globe. The net has also transformed the trader situation for better or for worse. It can be argued that the traditional local walk in model shop has had its day due to declining demand but the web has opened up new markets for those willing to grasp the opportunity as many traders have done. I think there will indeed be an increase in web publishing but ultimately this will depend on portable document readers which are easy and comfortable to use becoming widely available. I wasn't too impressed with the one I tried out in Waterstones the other day, the technology still has some way to go. And none of my magazines or books require batteries!
Colin
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Andygh raises a good point regarding the "free" plans with magazines. On the one hand, it's good to see plans that are fairly simple so as to encourage newcomers to the hobby, but on the other hand it would be nice to see some intermediate plans as well. I have found plans drawn by Jim Pottinger to be excellent, but they are largely aimed at the more experienced modeller, as they usually do not include any model construction information. They do cover a wide range of prototypes.
The magazine publishers are constrained by size when it comes to choosing a suitable plan, but it is not difficult, or too expensive, to have the plan enlarged to a size of the reader's choice. In most cases, the accompanying article is of great assistance, too.
With regard to the magazine versus internet debate goes, I find both very helpful and interesting, particularly this forum, for the reasons Colin Bishop mentions; they complement each other and, at this stage, I would not even consider dropping my magazine subscription.
Peter.
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The magazine is o.k. but to have to buy it to gain access to the subscribers part of there site. I think is a little too much. After all I have contributed to their site with photos of builds and help to the forum questions.
Sorry Colin
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I subscribe to the mag so I think it's ok that the I get a little extra for my £50 quid
Proteus
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Not quite with you there Seaspray,
At the moment the only subscriber content is what you are already seeing in the magazine anyway. There are some interesting developments in the pipeline but that is the case at present. As far as contributing to the site is concerned the publishers run it at a significant loss as a general amenity to boat modellers. At the last change of ownership there were proposals to drop the Forum altogether as MMI don't have one but Paul Freshney persuaded the powers that be not to do that as many people find it useful.
Your contributions to the Forum and photos are very much appreciated but the people you are helping are your fellow modellers not the publishers,
Colin
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Colin
It does seem awful quiet on the MB forum, perhaps they should drop it and put a link to Mayhem as a substitute /partner. That'll give us modellers the best services from both businesses.
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Seaspray,
Well, Mayhem did originate from the old Model Boats Forum when the company that then owned the magazine went bust and their Forum was closed down. Martin stepped into the breach and the rest, as they say, is history. However, I don't think either MB or Martin would favour an explicit link. MB makes no bones about being a commercial site and their Forum is an integral part of that. Mayhem is independent and you can discuss all sorts of things on it, including other magazines, which would not be appropriate on a commercial site.
The MB Forum may be quieter than Mayhem but a lot of people do visit the site and have participated in the competitions which is what the publishers want to see. It's just a different animal from Mayhem really.
Colin
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Yes the MB forum has got me out of trouble when I couldn't get a result on here. It is what it is, different from Mayhem and so it should be