Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Radio Equipment => Topic started by: ajb68 on August 30, 2009, 03:25:26 pm

Title: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: ajb68 on August 30, 2009, 03:25:26 pm
Im looking for a 4 channel radio so if you have one laying around please let me know  ;)
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on August 30, 2009, 05:05:08 pm
Do you have a price range in mind?
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: ajb68 on August 30, 2009, 05:09:20 pm
No not really Martin , what have you got ? regards Andy
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: craftysod on August 30, 2009, 06:09:00 pm
Giantcod.co.uk
do a 2.4 ghz with a rx for £26,got one last week and good
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on August 31, 2009, 07:54:10 pm
Yes, Giant Cod.
Mine arrived faulty, (right stick completely dislodged, took an hour or so to reassemble) but good product for the price.
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Wasyl on September 01, 2009, 12:44:07 am
£26 squidgies for a 2.4 ghz,are you all on something,next you,ll be telling ,its normal postage costs,
£26,at this price if its true,i want one,
there must be a catch,i know,the extra receivers will be loads,

Wullie
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: barriew on September 01, 2009, 08:20:39 am
£26 squidgies for a 2.4 ghz,are you all on something,next you,ll be telling ,its normal postage costs,
£26,at this price if its true,i want one,
there must be a catch,i know,the extra receivers will be loads,

Wullie

Buy from Giantcod and you pay UK postage rates. Not sure about extra receivers, but if they are more than £26 you just buy another set %%

Barrie
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Peterm on September 01, 2009, 08:31:17 am
Extra receivers from Giantcod are £10 each, plus a bit of postage.   Pete
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: tugboyben on September 01, 2009, 12:01:29 pm
hi all

just put my order in wot a bargain :-))

jason
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: SteamboatPhil on September 01, 2009, 03:17:34 pm
Oh dear at that price I might just get around to joing the 21st century (27meg rocks :-)))

But can I work such dark magic  {:-{
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on September 01, 2009, 04:06:50 pm

Even I've bought a couple of sets Phil.... so if I can figure it out.....

Step by step....

1. Purchase radio (Giant cod - http://www.giantcod.co.uk/gianitcod-24ghz-4channel-mode2-transmitter-p-403779.html )
2. Await radio to be delivered (makes next steps quite easy!)
3. Unpack radio and check order complete.
4. Insert 8 AA batteries into Transmitter.
5. Plug a servo (or more than one) into Receiver .
6. Connect a 4.8v-6v battery to receiver ( black to the outside of the receiver ).
7. Turn on the transmitter ( may take a couple of seconds before the receiver responds ).
8. Press the tiny button on the receiver (with a paperclip or-the-like) = "Binding". (Locks the Rx to that Tx only - can be reset).
9. The green LED flashes for a second or so then stops, that’s it, job done!


( Additional receivers - http://www.giantcod.co.uk/24g-gc-receiver-p-403785.html )
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Made it to 80 (25p Richer now) on September 01, 2009, 04:36:05 pm
Well Phil and Martin you know it works cos I was useing mine at Llanberis I have since ordered and received 4 more receivers
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Guy Bagley on September 01, 2009, 04:56:36 pm
me is gonna get me some !!!!!! thats crazy pricing !!!

 come on steamboatphil, join the revolution ( but i agree 27 mhz rocks O0)
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: hollowhornbear on September 01, 2009, 05:44:10 pm
anyone tried the rx with any other tx?
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Made it to 80 (25p Richer now) on September 01, 2009, 07:13:21 pm
Will only work with Giantcod tranny
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: craftysod on September 01, 2009, 08:33:48 pm
Mine did not arrive faulty,just had to replace,the power switch cover,and bind the tranny with the rx.
Awaiting the spare rx that i ordered but brill for a boat,no complaints for the price
Mark
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: tobyker on September 08, 2009, 11:59:01 pm
Crikey! Just ordered one - I hope he gives Martin Commission!
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: tobyker on September 10, 2009, 04:43:17 pm
Crikey - Its just arrived!
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Wasyl on September 10, 2009, 06:50:02 pm
Does it Work {-)

Wullie
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: bosun on November 03, 2009, 08:53:15 pm
Hy Guys
I have just recieved today my 2.4 tx and 4 rx,s from Giant Cod, I set them up following the instructions that were posted by Martin in an earlier post, ie, plug in servo, and battery pack. When that was done the servo centered itself so I assume that it was recieving a signal. I then pushed the bind button and the reciever flashed for about 7 seconds then stayed lit, problem is now there is no response from the servo, I have tried all the channels but still nothing, and this is on all 4 reciever,s.
Have any of you guys with the Giant Cod system had the same problem.
Bosun
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Made it to 80 (25p Richer now) on November 03, 2009, 09:13:41 pm
Hi Bosum
    I have just got my second Giant Cod set and didn't have any problems with binding, to bind all I did was plug in a servo and battery pack and then the tranny (both being swithed on) let the servo set it's self and then pressed the bind button on the receiver for no more than a second ; after release of the bind button it took about five seconds and the servo reset and the system was bound, it could be that you are holding the bind button on too long. Hope this helps
                                                            Cheers
                                                                Bob
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: bosun on November 03, 2009, 09:51:47 pm
Hy Bob
Thanks for the reply, I have tried what you suggested, and have got two of the recievers working, still nothing on the other two, but they are centering themselves when the battery pack is plugged in, just have to keep trying I suppose.
Cheers  Mate :-))
Bosun
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: bosun on November 03, 2009, 11:28:13 pm
Just a quick line to let anyone who has the same problem know what it was (at least in my case) I had an e,mail from Phill on Giant Cod and he advised me to move the tx and rx away from my PC if it was routed with wifi, I was doing the binding on the computer desk. I did this and everything came to life no probs, something I would never have thought of.
Bosun
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: andygh on November 04, 2009, 01:11:40 am
Aye, wireless internet uses 2.4gig too
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 12, 2009, 02:32:11 pm
I'm looking at these 6Ch 2.4 Ghz radio systems from Giant Cod that everyone is shouting about.

Any good are they?

Mum' s offered to buy me one for Christmas :-)) O0

Which do I go for, the Heli version of the Plane version?

Mode 1 or mode 2?  I'm used to rudder on right stick side to side plane?

I want it for the sailing trawler build I'm on with. I want four channels for winch control and one for rudder.

What servos and battery set up are folks using with these sets?

It's been a 15 year gap in model building and technology has moved on and left me behind somewhat and I'm a bit rusty on the jargon! :-)) >>:-(

All advice gratefully received :-))
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 12, 2009, 05:15:55 pm
I'm looking at these 6Ch 2.4 Ghz radio systems from Giant Cod that everyone is shouting about.

Any good are they?

Mum' s offered to buy me one for Christmas :-)) O0

Which do I go for, the Heli version of the Plane version?

Mode 1 or mode 2?  I'm used to rudder on right stick side to side plane?

I want it for the sailing trawler build I'm on with. I want four channels for winch control and one for rudder.

What servos and battery set up are folks using with these sets?

It's been a 15 year gap in model building and technology has moved on and left me behind somewhat and I'm a bit rusty on the jargon! :-)) >>:-(

All advice gratefully received :-))


I have a couple, with some extra receivers.  I would say:

Compared to other sets on the market at the moment, these look to be the cheapest.

They seem to work well.

They are basic 4 channel - no programming, so it makes no sense to talk about heli or plane. Giant Cod do a £55-odd similar programmable set for helis and fixed-wing.

The Transmitter box is simple but strong. It takes 8 AA cells (in a very strong set of clips) and has a charging socket. Some people have upgraded them by putting a futaba 8-cell pack in the battery area.

The decorative trimming on the transmitter is poor and tatty. For instance, the servo reverse feature is four holes badly cut in the front ali trim, through which you poke little switches on the PCB inside.

The Transmitter has a Mode1/Mode2 switch and a Channel Mixer on/off switch on the PCB inside. Not easy to get at, but these unadvertised features are there.

The set comes with no instructions, in a simple packing carton.

There is no rate switching, and the end 1/4 of each stick throw does not produce any servo movement. Giant Cod have a mod on their forum to rectify both these issues, and there are extra sockets on the Transmitter board, so extra channels might be able to be easily added. The receiver is 6/7 channel.

You buy your own servos and flight battery. I have several different servo makes, all of which work with the system (but see above).

2.4 Ghz means you don't worry about frequency clashes, since the receiver 'binds' to a specific transmitter. However, 2.4Ghz does not go through water. So submariners can't use this frequency, and you should make sure that the receiver aerial is not tucked low in the boat under the waterline.

Quality control may be a bit weak - there is one report of roughish trim function on the GC site, and you have to open up the transmitter box to re-align the aerial properly. Mine came with the on/off switch cover knocked off as mentioned above (easy to replace)

I would say they are a good buy, but don't expect a system with the quality of a standard make. Incidentally, I notice that the Planet 5 5-channel set is available from my local model shop at £40, http://www.allelectricrc.co.uk/planet-5-24ghz-tx--rx-set-1844-p.asp  and that has better quality trim and a small LCD screen. The GC system will cost £30 with postage. I suspect we are about to see a price war for Christmas, and there may be other bargains in the offing....





 




Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on November 12, 2009, 06:37:04 pm
Howes Model were advertising a 2.4 set at the Warwick show for £35.
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 12, 2009, 08:37:02 pm
Howes Model were advertising a 2.4 set at the Warwick show for £35.


It might have been the Planet one (in which case, that's cheap!) or the Giant Cod one (in which case, that's expensive!)

Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 12:47:47 am
The more I look the more I find,

What are the current legal operating frequencies for model boats in the UK?

Found this on e-bay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-4Ghz-6CH-Transmitter-w-6CH-receiver-R-C-Plane-Heli_W0QQitemZ330375462215QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioC

Comments anyone?
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 01:34:24 am
Also found this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-4GHz-9-CH-Radio-Control-RC-Transmitter-8CH-Receiver_W0QQitemZ270483038758QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item3efa0ba226

and this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-4Ghz-RC-Plane-9Ch-Digital-Programmable-LCD-Radio-Gear_W0QQitemZ110423447877QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item19b5c01945

Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: andygh on November 13, 2009, 03:10:21 am
I have both the 6ch and the 9ch, they are excellent. Cheaper if you buy direct though
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 13, 2009, 07:35:01 am
Greggy
27MHz, 40 MHz and 2.4GHz are all legal for surface models in the UK. There's also an obscure one around 459MHz which used to be popular but no-one makes the equipment any longer (was it REFTEC?).
Those fleebay Chinese sets seem to have proper proportional auxiliary channels, not just ON/OFF switches like the bigger "names". That alone makes them more suitable for scale model boats.
BTW Wombat has returned the company "test" Futaba 6EX 2.4GHz set.............he didn't like it much, either. He now has a shiny new Spektrum DX6 to play with - not cheap  :o
FLJ
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 13, 2009, 09:36:52 am
Also found this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-4GHz-9-CH-Radio-Control-RC-Transmitter-8CH-Receiver_W0QQitemZ270483038758QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item3efa0ba226

and this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-4Ghz-RC-Plane-9Ch-Digital-Programmable-LCD-Radio-Gear_W0QQitemZ110423447877QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item19b5c01945




You should be able to recognise the basic set from the picture. The one you mentioned in your prior post is very similar to the Giant Cod one - though it has 6 channels, and will cost you £42 to buy with postage, while GC is £29.

The other two are somewhat nicer, and will cost you £74 and £78 respectively. Look at the postage! You can get quite a good one from the UK for that money.

If you buy stuff direct from Hong Kong, you will get it cheap, though the postage adds a lot. But you get no buyers protection, and if anything goes wrong you will probably have a lot of trouble sorting the issue out. Check the 'extra costs' and check the buyers feedback before committing anything, and don't spend money you aren't prepared to lose...



Then you must also allow for customs duty.

Customs duty is payable on any item costing more than about £18 before postage. Once the duty becomes payable, it is on the item cost plus postage. It is usually collected by the shipper, who can add their collection fees to this figure, and it is hard to find out what these may be in advance. So you are at risk of an unquantifiable extra cost. I suppose, in theory, since the adverts sometimes say the item will be mis-declared as a gift or at low cost, you could also be charged with conspiracy to defraud...

Having said that, I have bought expensive items from abroad before, and have never paid any tax. I once had a Royal Mail delivery pushed through my door with 'tax to pay' written on it, but no one ever asked me for the money! So the enforcement of this tax is variable, and it seems that you would be unlucky if you had to pay it. Nevertheless, it is still a possibility.

If the above doesn't put you off, go ahead. I have bought from Hong Kong before, and had a successful transaction. In most cases the sellers are not rogues, and what they are selling is cheap, but they won't be very interested in customer service, they'll be interested in shipping kit and making profit. In general, for expensive kit, I prefer waiting for an enterpreneur like Giant Cod to travel over, negotiate and purchase, and then sell in this country....
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Timo2 on November 13, 2009, 10:08:03 am
Hi Greggy   /   AndyBailey


      Check out the units at     http://www.r2hobbies.com/products.php?cat=71    :-))

     Timo2

  PS. we have 5 member with the 6 channel sets   O0

 

 
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 12:09:38 pm
Thank you for your input fella's it is most appreciated,

I have mixture of acoms and futaba  {-)servo's from previous model boats but no transmitters or receivers for some odd reason :o lost in the mists of time I guess.

Presumably I could hook these up to the 2.4Ghz set I buy?

I hear what you say about the risk of buying from Hong Kong :-)) but it's sooo cheap it's tempting O0

The r2hobbies site lists the Turborix digital 6h sets, am I correct in thinking all six channels are fully proportional?

Where are r2hobbies based? Presumably I'll have the same problems associated with Hong Kong buys if I'm importing into the UK?

The 9 channel set looks very impressive for the money and within my price range are there any testimonials for these sets I can check up on?

I'm now hopping between the Turborix 2.4 GHz  >>:-( {-) O06 channel set and the Eurgle 2.4Ghz 9 Channel
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 12:33:14 pm
Rc bargains do the Tuborix set of £59.99 free postage

http://www.rc-bargains.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_20&products_id=729

I guess with this set I'd at least get some comeback if things went belly up! {-)

but reading the spec on the 9 channel set I've got to say I'm impressed for the money, 3 extra channels and no need for a computer to program the set!

I need input from folks already using these sets - help! {-) O0

 :-)) :-))
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 13, 2009, 01:20:10 pm

I hear what you say about the risk of buying from Hong Kong :-)) but it's sooo cheap it's tempting O0
....
Where are r2hobbies based? Presumably I'll have the same problems associated with Hong Kong buys if I'm importing into the UK?


No one's saying you will have problems. As far as I can tell, most people are happy with these purchases, and I know of no reports that the radios are badly designed or have a history of failure. Some of the cheapest ones have poor decorative trim, but they all seem to work well...

What I am saying is that there is an increased risk, compared with buying from your local store in the UK, where consumers are very well protected. I think you should assume that:

- All the the radios are good - there seems to be no major history of complaints or problems.
- The costs and what you are buying need to be studied. Look out for of extra costs like compulsory insurance costs being added during the purchase, or extra receivers being costly. Caveat Emptor....
- Remember that you are taking an extra risk, and that is why you are paying less. We have told you about some of the risks, and indicated that their occurance is low. Work out how much that risk is worth to you, and whether it is worth you paying more to buy from a lower-risk UK supplier. If not - go ahead...

  
Title: radio gear question
Post by: lozvik on November 13, 2009, 08:43:47 pm
sorry for all these questions peeps, im looking to buy a new radio set for my next bait boat build, its going to be twin motors and will have 1 dropper so thinking 3 channel,  ive seen this  newish 2.4ghz malarky but do i really need it, or is it more for things that fly. ive seen one radio set called planet 5 that comes with  a receiver and costs around £40 or theres a 3 channel hitec for £35, help!
Title: Re: radio gear question
Post by: craftysod on November 13, 2009, 10:15:17 pm
Go for a 2.4ghz set,so if someone else turns up pondside,there will be no chance of radio clash,they are as cheap or cheaper in some cases than the old frequencies.
All radio gear is designed for the fly boys,because they need more channels,if you need 3 channels go for a basic set that lets you go forward/back and drop bait,then you have a spare channel as they are mostly start at 4 channel now
Mark
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: lozvik on November 13, 2009, 10:39:34 pm
Am i right thinking the hitec zebra 3 channel has v tail mixing, does the planet 4 or 5 radio 2.4ghz have this same function? does this function within hanset mean i dont need to buy a seperate v tail mixer??
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 13, 2009, 11:20:15 pm
Greggy, as far as I'm aware R2hobbies is Hong Kong based. As I mentioned in a post on another thread, a club in Brisbane bought 10 of the Turborix 6 channel 2.4ghz sets from R2hobbies, and sold them to their members for cost. Some of their members visited our club recently and said that they were very happy with the units, and they didn't have to pay any tax on them.

Peter.
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 13, 2009, 11:44:54 pm
Am i right thinking the hitec zebra 3 channel has v tail mixing, does the planet 4 or 5 radio 2.4ghz have this same function? does this function within hanset mean i dont need to buy a seperate v tail mixer??

The cheap Giant Cod £25 4 function transmitter has a chanel mixing switch. I have just tried it out on mine, and had servos 1 and 2 both drive one way when I pushed the stick forward, and drive in opposite directions when I pushed the stick sideways.

If you replaced the servos with escs, I reckon you would have what you want. For a small boat, R2Hobbies do a £1.90p esc, which must be the cheapest around at the moment. I assume that you only need to connect one esc to a battery - are there any electrics wizards around who can see a problem with this...?
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 01:29:31 am
Why does the Eurgle radio set have two ariels?

It appears to have a traditional collapsable one and the modern shorter one that I associate with 2.4 GHz systems.

And why is the short ariel on a detachable module?
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: barriew on November 15, 2009, 06:39:58 am
What you are getting is a radio trnsmitter designed to take exchangeable Tx modules for the different transmitter frequency ranges in use throughout the world, plus a 2.4Ghz module. All the other frequency ranges use the long aerial, but 2.4 Ghz needs the stubby one. Some of the more expensive Futaba, Hitec and JR  sets also have the exchangeable modules and can be converted to 2.4Ghz in this way. They also have the 2.4Ghz aerial on the module I believe. The optimum aerial length depends on the frequency, the higher the frequency, the shorter the aerial!

Barrie
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 01:26:00 pm
Thanks Barrie,

That does it!

Its the 9 channel Eurgle set for me! :-))

Thanks for all your help guys :-))

Much appreciated. O0
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Patrick Henry on January 30, 2010, 05:00:49 pm
Only just got round to setting up my GiantCod outfit in my 575 yacht...followed Martin's instructions to the letter, and to my surprise, it worked first time! Binding couldn't be easier..well impressed.


Rich
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 30, 2010, 05:10:23 pm
Oi!  :P
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 30, 2010, 05:18:13 pm
Only just got round to setting up my GiantCod outfit in my 575 yacht...f

Rich

inquiring minds would like to know if you have any range problems, or any glitches which might be due to aerial shadowing, etc.

both these issues have been rumoured - but no one has reported anything firm...

sorry no caps - i'm typing this one-handed from the bath as my wife insists i wash myself before a party...there's dedication for you...
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: DickyD on January 30, 2010, 05:22:06 pm
inquiring minds would like to know if you have any range problems, or any glitches which might be due to aerial shadowing, etc.

both these issues have been rumoured - but no one has reported anything firm...

sorry no caps - i'm typing this one-handed from the bath as my wife insists i wash myself before a party...there's dedication for you...
There's posh, a computer in the bathroom. O0
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Patrick Henry on January 30, 2010, 05:48:32 pm
Oi!  :P

I meant I was most surprised that I got it to work first time...no reflection on your excellent instructions, Martin.


inquiring minds would like to know if you have any range problems, or any glitches which might be due to aerial shadowing, etc.

both these issues have been rumoured - but no one has reported anything firm.

Haven't got that far DG, only just installing in the boat now...will report back later. I did find that like Bosun, mine did absolutely nothing on my desk next to my laptop...across the room on the windowsill, everything fired up perfectly.


Rich
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 30, 2010, 06:13:52 pm

I meant I was most surprised that I got it to work first time...no reflection on your excellent instructions, Martin.
Rich


I know what you meant U33.....  <*<

Get my barrister on the phone!!
 ( Good bloke. Works for the famous firm, Shyster, Dubious & Welcher )
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Patrick Henry on January 30, 2010, 06:24:17 pm
Martin...would I ever doubt your most salubrious words of wisdom? Your genius is beyond reproach, your skills vast, and we all shall remain in complete awe of your far superior intellect.

With utmost respect...I remain sir, your humble apprentice.


Rich (bowing low, cap in hand...)
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 30, 2010, 06:29:16 pm
Forget all that grovelling... cash in a brown paper bag & I'll settle out a court!

 African Queen is on Film 4!  :-)) -
Title: Re: 2.4G Giant Cod system
Post by: Patrick Henry on January 30, 2010, 08:02:51 pm
Oh yeah? I'll bring the boys... <*<  <*<  <*<

(one's three, the other is eight.. Be afraid...be very afraid!)   %)



Rich