Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Greggy1964 on September 05, 2009, 02:55:30 PM

Title: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 05, 2009, 02:55:30 PM
Hello Folks my name is Greg Bulmer,

I was once a member of Bridlington Model Boat club about 20 years ago when the lake was just a big muddy hole and was I apprentice scratch builder to Derek Stamper who taught me everything I know and Les Smith sailed a giant model of HMS Hood down at the Spa. I visited the Lake at Carnaby recently and I had forgotten how much I enjoyed being around like minded people and how much the place has changed.

I haven't built anything in years but the urge has bitten me again.

I have long admired the sleek Sailing Trawlers that sailed out of Lowestoft and Brixham in the early 1900's. I discovered Sailing Trawlers by Edgar J March ( isbn 978-0715347119) and to my delight I discovered detailed drawings of Master Hand along with others in the back of the book. Every scrap of timber that went into the ship is listed and dimensioned in great detail along with masts, rigging and sails. It's a scratch modelers dream!

I have long known that to get a sailing model to work it must be big. So I'm currently floating around 3/4" to the foot or 1" to the foot scale. The real ship was 78ft 9" in old money with a beam of 19ft. At 3/4" to the foot that would give a model length over all on hull of 59" and a beam of 14". Displacement of the real ship was 100 long tons so the model will displace in the order of 55lbs. At 1" to the foot the model will displace 130 lbs which is getting a little unwieldy though she would look real good on the water.

So far I have redrawn the lines at 3/4" to the foot on my skrieve board which was once my daughter’s wardrobe door but since her wardrobe is mainly on the bedroom floor she hasn't missed it! I have attached some photos of the line drawings for your pleasure. The last photo is one of only seven still in existance out of hundreds of these vessels still afloat.

I plan to use four separate winches on jib, foresail, mainsail and mizzen whereby each sail can be adjusted separately or the whole lot can be adjusted together so I'm working out the internal layout of the model to suit.

As the ship will be experimental to start with I'm going to build her keel and frames from 1/2" plywood with pine planking all encapsulated in a thin epoxy resin called sparcoat which will seal everything in. At the moment there are construction details and dimensions of components whizzing around in my head so progress is slow but I'll keep everyone posted.

Greg

(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5599/48675909.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1YZ4M9)

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1290/86065339.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxlYuQA)

(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1385/90713821.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxlYEP9)

(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1281/31793675.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 05, 2009, 03:28:15 PM
Icidently I have the hull line drawings of Master Hand at 1:20 scale drawn on draughting film with a hull lenght of 47" and beam of 11.5" which would give a model displacement of 28lbs if anyone would like to build this ship if 1:16 scale is too scary.

I built the hull 15 years ago at 1:20 from these drawings but sold it to a chappy from York much to my regret! Wonder if he finished her?

When I've finished the 1:16 scale drawing I'll make them available too! I would be great to rekindle the old smack races again if only in model form!

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Brooks on September 05, 2009, 05:42:46 PM
Greg, your ship should be beautiful :-)

re size: I have RC  12" hull topsail schooner, a 12" hull sandbagger, a 25" hull topsail schooner, and a 36" hull 4-masted barque. All will tack, wear, work to windward, reach, & run. My freesailer 15" hull brigantine and 8" hull sandbagger will work to windward, and proceed on the other points of sailing, though runs are difficult to sustain.  So, for my purposes, smaller vessels sail just fine. Bigger models are more impressive to see, perhaps, but cost you in transport, setup, launch, breakdown ...in short, all those non-water tasks that must be performed everytime you wish to sail.

But I wish you all the best with your build, and hope you will post lots of photos. For my slow dialup, could you cut them down in size as much as feasible and still retain all the detail you wish to show? The above photos were fine. Thanks.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 05, 2009, 07:07:42 PM
Hello Brooks,

Thanks for your comments and advice, it's much appreciated

I've already thought up transport.

She's going to have her own trailer rather like a tiny covered in horse box inside which will be a four wheeled launching dolly on which the ship will rest fully rigged. So it'll be a case of roll up to the lake in my car with her in tow, drop the tailgate and launch rather like my old sailing dinghy days. I agree I don't like messing about, just sail.

I take note about your download speed, I can cut the size down, also I will load them to flicker or some such site and leave a link here if that would help.

I intend to share my building experience here for the benefit of others as I go along hopefully.

I am pleased to hear your models sail well at the scale you use, it encourages me with my efforts at 1:16 scale though still toying with 1:12 scale!

Thanks
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: cosmosman on September 05, 2009, 09:02:36 PM
Hi Greggy1964,

I use Microstation CAD so I could draw the Hull lines at full size then print them out at whatever scale for you if thats any help.

Mike
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 05, 2009, 09:19:55 PM
Hello Mike,

I confess I had considered using autocad and I might do it at some point.

But I come from old skool drawing office types using rotring ink pens and railway curves and then moved onto autocad later.

I use a variety of piano wire sizes to get the curves and hard dress makers pins driven into white melamine faced fibre board (the sort of stuff used for bedroom wardrobe doors is ideal) at the station points on my plans.

When I get things to fit fair I trace the lines onto draughting film and I use this to plot where water tight bulkheads, radio trays and the like are to go.

I guess I just enjoy the drawing as much as the building.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: cosmosman on September 05, 2009, 09:41:42 PM
No problem. I started my career on a drawing board. Used to draw for hours,still do but on computer. I enjoy the accuracy of CAD drawing. Hope to see more of your drawings.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on September 06, 2009, 03:14:18 AM
What an absolutely splendid subject for a model.

Depending on the price, I would be interested in a set of plans.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 07, 2009, 01:09:02 PM
Hello Folks,

Currently I have the hull lines at 1:20 scale which gives a hull length of 47.25" by 11.5" beam with a maximum draught aft of  6". Displacement will be in the order of 28lbs

It will also be available at 1:16 scale in a printable form when I get my finger out and trace the drawings above.

The drawings show profile, 1/2 plan and 1/2 end elevations from bow and stern. The lines are to outside of planking and show crown and edge of deck profile together with top of bulwark profile. Also the location of the masts are given at keel and deck level.

The drawings are suitable for experienced builders but I plan to give a blow by blow account of my 1:16 scale model over the comming months which will hopefully encourage inexperienced builders to tackle this ship also. We all started somewhere!

The drawing is on draughtmans plastic and is 56" x 23" in size and will come in a paper roll form. PM me to request a copy.

Basically as in the layout in the photo's above. No construction details are currently given but if you search for copies of Edgar J March's Sailing Trawler book can still be found but it'll set you back anywhere between £60.00 and £200.00 depending on condition as it is a rare collectable book.

The book gives historic details of how these sailing ships developed in form for the specific task of deep sea beam trawling and seine netting, and Master Hand was one of the last of the large wooden North Sea sailing trawlers built, she was at the pinnacle of development before the more efficient steam driven iron trawlers took over.

Happily the book is still available at your local library here in the UK at any rate.

The amazing thing is that in the index of this book are detailed drawings of every stick that went into this wooden ship together with  details of sails and rigging so a very accurate period model can be produced.

I would love to see a fleet of these beautiful ships brought back to life in model form.

My guess is that the hull form of this sailing trawler and the sailing rig will lend its self to a large scale model without external ballast to ruin it's profile. I would welcome discussions regarding this point. I have seen photos of what appear to be successful radio control models at a smaller scale so I'm hopeful.

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on September 29, 2009, 12:32:52 PM
Just bought a plank of hardwood for the keel, stem and stern post and a sheet of 9mm exterior ply for the frames.

So were off!

I will endeavor to take as build photos :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on September 30, 2009, 12:54:36 PM
We look forward to it.  :-)) :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 08, 2009, 05:43:29 PM
Well I had planned on planking my sailing trawler in pine as my budget is limited, however being a bit of a skip-oik I discovered an old oval oak table placed out to scrap.

On closer inspection, the entire thing was made of solid oak, the table top being 3/4" thick. A quick word with the former owner and it was mine!

I have a table top circular saw with a narrow tungsten tipped blade which sat nicely in the leg frame once I'd taken off the top. (See pics below).

I wanted to convert the table top into planks but wasn't sure if there was enough so I traced the bulkhead drawing and plotted out the plank runs based on my planking tutorial else where on the forum (see pics below)

A quick calculation and some careful cutting later I have the following planking stock, and no the photo below is not a kitchen table top - it's a ship yard in miniature :-)) {-) {-) O0

258ft linear feet off 3/16" x 3/4" = Main body of 2.5" (3/16" @ 1/16 scale) planking.

30ft linear feet off 3/16" x 1 1/2" = Guard boards plus no.2 to no. 8 planks from keel

22ft linear feet off 1/4 x 3/4" = Bilge strakes, 3 no. 3" x 8" strakes per side. Plus 4 no. 6" x 3" topside strakes per side
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 08, 2009, 05:57:22 PM
Forgot to add a closeup photo of the planking stock.

The added bonus is my kitchen erm shipyard has the wonderful aroma of freshly cut oak!  :-)) {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on October 09, 2009, 10:18:32 AM
Congratulations on your find - the wood looks lovely. (And what a better use for it than the skip!)

Will you need to soak/steam these timbers for the planking?

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on October 09, 2009, 10:31:35 AM
Congratulations on your find - the wood looks lovely. (And what a better use for it than the skip!)

Will you need to soak/steam these timbers for the planking?

Andy

I was thinking the same thing.
I would try bending some to see how they perform. They might be brittle.
Hopefully not.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 09, 2009, 12:15:37 PM
Hello Dreadnought72, Tigertiger,

In the world of Ikea and B&Q throw together furniture there seems to be no room for traditional solid wood furniture, if its not all white or all black it won't fit in todays modern living room so it ends up in the skip. Auction rooms are another source, ask about old broken furniture from house clearances.

I'm a self confessed skip oik! I can't help myself. For someone like me who has the small but able tools to convert timber into my modelling needs it can be a real boon. I can't go passed a skip without looking to see if there is anything useful to a scratch builder like me.

In modern money the planks are cut 5mm and 6mm depending on their intended use. Scale plank thicknesses are 4mm and 5mm. I deliberately cut them on the thick side so that I can sand or scrape away the 'threepenny bit' effect of flat planking on a curved hull and still maintain my plank thickness.

At these thicknesses I see no problem with bending the planks cold around the trawler hull, it is a long sleek shape and I forsee only the first few planks up from the keel with any real twist as they meet the vertical stern post. I have built this ship before at 1/20 scale and used Maple for the planks and had no difficulty.

An oak plank three foot length held at its ends will take a 90 degree twist without any splitting or cracking.

If needs be I have devised a steam box made from a 6" PVC drain pipe bunged at both ends and a steam wall paper stripper.

The Sapele hardwood I bought for the keel seems out of place now I have oak planks though!

I plan to put up a detailed photographic account as the build progresses now that I have a decent little camera good for close up stuff an inexpensive e-bay find! :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on October 09, 2009, 02:20:47 PM
I plan to put up a detailed photographic account as the build progresses...

 :-))  O0   :-)  Looking forward to it very much!

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on October 09, 2009, 03:16:02 PM
me too :-))
Title: Comming shortly
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 15, 2009, 01:00:53 AM
Constructing the building board on which our trawler hull is to be built :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 25, 2009, 04:09:38 PM
She's going to be a beast! O0 :-)) {-)

Here are a couple of photos of Master Hand's outline plotted on the building board, I can never really appreciate the hull shape until I do this and I like what I see.

Waaaaay over the other end of the photo is my Swan Vesta's for scale, Oh! and meet Rex, one of my monster German Shepherds, he's after my just eaten Greek yogurt! {-)

I dont smoke by the way, we have indoor moggies as well as dogs and the matches help get rid of the pog when they go digging in the litter tray! <*< >>:-( {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 25, 2009, 04:32:12 PM
For the eagle eyed perfectionists among us who have spotted the hull is not central on the building board :embarrassed:

The reason is that the melamine top was not perfectly straight. <*< >>:-(

I automatically assumed it would be as this stuff is machine made! Wrong! <:(

I had already plotted out the boat central before noticing the curve in the port edge of the board >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >:-o

And rather than redraw the boat I just planed the edge straight and so the hull is now a fraction off centre! heheheheeee ;)

A quick job with a hot iron and some melamine edging and Bob's your Uncle Fanny's your Aunt - all better . . . well sort of!

I'm more concerned that the board is perfectly flat and level :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 29, 2009, 11:47:24 PM
I have got ahead of myself a bit, what follows is a detailed description of how I build the building board for this large model. :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 30, 2009, 12:13:24 AM
What follows assumes you have an understanding wife  O0 or like me you are single  {-) {-)

No responsibility will be taken by the author for battered husbands as a result of following this help topic! ;) :-))

If you are lucky enough to have a fully kitted out workshop - forget what I just said! %) :-)) I'm aiming this at the kitchen table top builder!

A big scratch built model needs a big stable building base if we are to avoid building twists and kinks into our lovely new hull.

The hull of my Sailing Trawler is exactly 1500mm from stem to stern by 368mm beam so I chose a base of 1625mm by 380mm.

I leveled up my kitchen table by packing up the legs with thin cardboard and by using my long spirit level made sure the table was level length ways and width ways and on the diagonals so that I had a flat base on which construct the build board.

Take one length of white double faced melamine board (they only come in 2500mm lengths so I'm stuck with an off cut! >>:-( >>:-( )  by 12mm thick and a bunch of 25mm x 45mm clear straight softwood sufficient to form a stiffening perimeter and a cross brace and a box full of 1 1/4 x no. 6 wood screws. See photos below.

If your building board is clamped to a flat and level surface while you build the hull you could get away without this step, but I could pick up one corner of the board and I could raise it 5mm without lifting the other three corners which is no good. It needs to be stiff and level all ways.

Clamp one length of softwood down one long edge of the board with a G clamps at both ends and set up a taught cotton string line down the seam between the two parts. Go to the centre of the board and check to make sure the seam still follows the cotton string line. If it is bowed, put on a bit of pressure on the wood and board until the seam is under the cotton line and clamp it.

It is a good idea to pack up the cotton at each end with small bits of thin card, this lifts the string line off the wood surface a fraction avoiding the string line being fouled and giving a false reading, this ensures it is dead straight.

Check all along the string line until you’re happy that the string line says the seam is straight and then drill from the melamine side and screw down tight. I had two battery drills set up with a 3mm drill bit and the other with a driver bit to match the screw heads.

Repeat the above with the other long side.

Next, turn the job upside down and clamp to your level table top and fit the two end pieces of wood to form an open shallow box. While the job is clamped to the table, screw everything up tight so that it stays flat when it is lifted away from the table.

The cross brace is made by custom fitting it into your new shallow box with a halved joint at the centre. By plotting its position on the upper surface of the building board, it is screwed down tight from the top surface.

The photos below should clear up all of the above.

Turn the job right side up and with your long spirit level make sure every thing is level all ways and sight down the top edges to make sure they are straight.

We now have a solid and stiff board on which to build any number of future scratch built boat projects.

I would advise giving the wood frame and the exposed ends of the melamine board a lick or two of yacht varnish if it and the model are to be stored in the shed or garage to avoid changes of moisture in the atmosphere causing havoc with your new and flat board.

Next, using our trusty cotton string line again map out a centre line of the hull the full length of the board. My cotton string lines are simply made up with a loop at both ends, one I can hang on a pin in the edge of the board and the other supports a bicycle spoke hook on which I can hang small weights.

The weighted end of the string line hangs over the edge of the board and is allowed to swing free in the breeze and by weighting it to just below breaking point, it keeps the line taught and thus dead straight. We again use the little packing pieces at each end of the line to keep if from fouling the surface.

Set out the model on the building board centrally length and width ways and plot off the positions of each frame of the hull down the centre line of the board.

I do this using the old surveying trick of the three, four, five triangle. Using a set of compasses, plotting a 3, 4, 5 triangle always ensures the corner opposite the hypotenuse is a 90 degree angle. See sketch below

IMPORTANT!!!!  :police: <*< I'm using 12mm exterior plywood for my frames.

The frames from the mid ship section to the bow are set up with their STERN facing faces on the frame position lines just marked on the building board - see sketch below.

The frames from the mid ship section to the stern have their BOW facing faces set up on the frame lines on the building board.

A  little later in the build, just before we start planking, the frames are going to be faired so that their edges run in the direction of the planking.
The planks will sit flush with each faired frame edge providing a good gluing and nailing surface.

We are now ready for setting up the frames on the building board.

Next chapter – marking out, cutting out and setting up the hull frames on our shiny new building board.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 30, 2009, 01:23:34 AM
At last! :o

I'm cutting wood that is actually going into the hull as frames!

Though I must confess a slight set back in choosing my plywood, I ASKED for 2 good faced exterior grade 12mm plywood. What I got was interior inferior 1 good faced plywood that was so full of internal voids as to render it useless! >>:-( >>:-( :((

It'll teach me to look closer at what I buy in future! :embarrassed:

First though we need to transfer the frame shapes from our plans, I use cereal box cardboard because it is good quality and free :-)) to make templates.

I lay a piece of card under my plan and prick through with a sharp compass point into the cardboard, closely spaced on tight curves and wider apart on straighter areas following the chosen frame outline. A sharp pair of scissors and a bright lamp allows you to split the holes in the card marking the frame outline while cutting out.

Sure with this method your plans end up with a few tiny holes but to my mind the plans are a means to an end.

I only bother making half frame templates because when setting out on the plywood used for the frames I simply set out a centre line, trace one side and flip the template over and trace the other side of the frame.

Where frames are intended to have cut out centres to allow for access and to allow for radio and battery bays, set your compasses to the frame width you desire (mine are 25mm to allow for nailing planks to the frames) and run the point along the template edge while keeping the compasses at 90 degrees to the template edge.

You should end up with a line drawn 25mm in from the template edge. This is also useful where your plans are to outside of planking, set the compasses to your plank thickness and trace around as before. Trim to the new line and you have a template to inside of planking. :-))

Don't cut out the hole of the centre of the templates, this will cause them to become floppy and inaccurate, make short cuts with a sharp Stanley knife along the inside frame line and two other cuts on each to make triangle cut outs. Trace the inside frame line onto the plywood at these cutouts and just join up the dashes your left with. See photo below.

I have drawn the lines Master Hand with the frames vertical when she floats at her waterline, she has a deep heeled hull i.e. the heel of the keel under the rudder is deeper than at the bow. It just means that when I build in trays and platforms for radio gear etc. the frames will be vertical when the hull is afloat making the job easier.

Knowing this I have marked on each frame the load water line and also I have marked on the drawings a line parallel to this above the profile plan that represents the building board surface. Mark the load water line onto each half template frame and nick the template at the centre line and edge of frame. When transferring to the plywood, nick through the load water line onto the wood surface at centreline and edge when tracing each half.

This serves two purposes, it ensures I have traced each half of the frame accurately because all nicks made in the wood (two with each half template remeber) will form a straight line if I've done things properly and the load water line thus drawn will give me an accurate datum when setting up the frames on the building board.

I like my hulls built a distance away from the building board surface to allow me to gain access inside the hull while planking. It's no problem getting your sticky fingers in there with only a few planks on, but how do you wipe away the fresh glue squeezed out inside the hull when you down to the closing planks? Make provision for it!

The hull will be built bottom up and at such a height off the board that I can easily gain access inside with my hands with the water line level with the building board surface and 162mm distant.

Next time, marking out the keel and cutting the rabbet to accept the plank ends and guard boards.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on October 30, 2009, 01:49:04 PM
A word on power tools for the budget minded like me.

Scour the car boot sales at weekends, especially the bigger ones. I knew that I had an up and comming model boat to build and with this in mind set out for some heavy artillery! O0

My first find was an old chap who was giving up woodworking as he was getting on a bit and wanted to travel Europe in his camper van. He had a whole small workshop of tools laid out and I walked away with a 14" throat burgess bandsaw for £25! :-))  :-) I'd have bought all his tools if I'd had enough money!

My next find was the small circular saw table  seen in my photos back up this build log, I bought it for £5 as the blade was shot but a visit to ebay saw me with a new tungsten tipped blade and I was in business.

Next was a power planer for £7 with new spare blades, this I'm going to convert into a planer thicknesser by using it sole facing upwards. I'm going to set up some adjustable height rollers that will hold the wood for my planks to it's surface so that I can feed my new planks through the blades and get a constant even plank thickness. All covered over to save my fingers of course!

My last find was a rather neglected Nutool 18" motor powered scroll saw that weighs a ton as it's cast iron I think! for £20! The face plate is rusty and the little blower doobly is broken but who cares! It cuts tight curves in plywood lovely :-))

The point I'm trying to make is that blokes who want to have a go at scratch built models but are afraid that kitting out a workshop will cost the earth, can do so and get their mits on some useful portable power tools for their kitchen table top workshop for little money if they keep their eyes open.

Spot the lego set square on the bandsaw! :-))

My new little 2nd hand workshop set me back less than 75 quid spread over the summer months and now I'm in the model boat building business again after a 15 year gap <*<
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 01, 2009, 06:00:08 PM
The frames are all roughed out and ready to be hung on the keel so the next job is to tackle the back bone of the ship.

I have chosen some Sapele hardwood for my keel as it was easy to obtain a decent length from my local timber merchant. I had it machined to the required 13mm thickness to match the keel width while I was there to make my life easier.

At home I cut the board into 50mm planks as I have decided my back bone is going to be 50mm x 13mm in section, of which 12mm projects below the guard boards forming the ships visible keel.

My drawings show the keel projecting 15mm below the guard boards and this is so that when the hull is completed I can plane the keel down to size. This was done so that any knocks and dings the keel might receive during planking will be planed away leaving a straight keel with clean sharp edges.

Taking my my No.4 Stanley Plane in hand sharpened using the scary sharp system of sharpening the blade I can get lovely clean faces to my keel and dead woods, even the end grain is as shiny as a bald mans pate and as smooth as a babies bum! :-)) {-) leaving me with a heap of see through shavings. See photo.

I get my wood flat and square by taking off very fine shavings and then checking for squareness and straightness. If things are not true I mark the high spots with blue marker pen and play the game of shave off the blue bits {-) :-)) This relieves the tediousness of the job and hones my planing accuracy.

I have a roll of tracing paper between my drawing and the wood components so that I don't draw on the plans while setting out the back bone. The parts are pinned to the building board through the plans to hold them in place while I make all the components.

I use lego parts to form set squares, these help me transfer lines directly from the drawings to the top surface of parts I need to cut out on the band saw very accurately. Lego is perfectly square on all sides and I find it a useful setting out tool. See photos

Next time, gluing the parts forming the back bone, setting out and cutting the stem and stern post profiles and setting out the rabbet to receive the planking.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 01, 2009, 06:48:36 PM
My plywood used for the frames has shrunk! :o

It is supposed to be 12.7mm thick or 1/2 inch?

A stack of 9 frames cut from this plywood measures 101.7mm instead of 114.3mm! >>:-(

Good job this ain't the space station I'm building! ;) :-)) and I can adjust things to suit.

Ah the joys of scratch building! {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 02, 2009, 06:46:40 PM
The keel members were glues together last night and this evening I've begun to cut the rabbet to receive the planks.

I make a start cutting the rabbet now as it's much easier while the keel is clamped flat to my building board. I don't cut the full depth but about 1/2 mm shallower so that I might finish off the groove as each planks comes to meet the rabbet during planking of the hull.

The rabbet is the point at which the outer face of a plank meets the stem post, stern post and keel and the bearding line is where the inside face of a plank meets same.

These can be plotted from the plan sections for the keel, and the water lines for the stem and stern post. See close up photo of setions showing plotted plank edges where they meet the keel below. :-))

Master Hand's planks scale 4mm thick as near as makes no difference so I have marked this on the edge of my chisel so that when I start bashing away with me mallet I know how deep to cut. The angle of my cuts are guided by my guard board plank edge plotted on my sections.

The chisel blade represents the inner face of the planks and its side represents the edge of the planks. See photo below.

The next photo shows the progression along the rabbet groove, the chisel is propped up at the beginning of cutting, and progresses the the finished rabbet groove towards the bottom of the photo.

I make cuts with the chisel as shown working along the groove taking out little sections as I go to a rough depth.

When I have done this for an inch or so I go back and smooth off the face making sure I have gone no deeper than 4mm at the rabbet, feathering off to nothing at the bearding line, all the while following what my sections on the plans show me and transferred to each section plotted on the side of the keel.

Now I play the shave off the blue bits again. :-)) O0

What I am after is a smooth transition along the rabbet groove as the angle is constantly changing, governed by the 4mm depth at the rabbet to nothing at the bearding line. I use my chisel as a scraper by holding the blade vertical to the groove face and drawing the chisel towards me.

I am aided by daubing blue indelible pen on the straight edge of a scrap of plank wood and rubbing it up and down the rabbet groove. High spots are indicated by the blue bits in the groove which I shave off. Do not shave off at the rabbet or the bearding line as these define the groove.

The photo shows the blue spots that need to come off and I keep going until everything is blue indicating a flat even surface.This takes some time to complete and is not particularly necessary but I like to follow full size ship building practice in this area as it forms a very good gluing and nailing surface for the plank hood ends and the bottom edge of the guard board.

Next time, setting up the frames on the building board and fitting the keel. :-))
Title: Cuttiung rabbet cont'd Don't try this at home kids!
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 04, 2009, 05:00:59 PM
I've had a couple of frustrating days with no work done on the keel >:-o life just gets in the way! {-)

But during this time I've been thinking I have the need for a 4mm plank so that I can dury fit the guard board while the keel is clamped to my building board for cutting the rabbet.

I have temporarily super glued bits of obechi to the side of the keel to the same profile as the frames and glued at the frame stations.

This gives me the correct angles along the keel at which the guard board meets it when a scrap plank is bent into place. It gives me a visual on how to accurately cut the constantly changing bevel in the side of the keel.

In the first two photos below are two shots of a straight plank clamped in place with my baby spring clamps which provide sufficient force to hold the twisting plank in place except at either end where slightly more force is required. This I have done with 1" dressmakers pins set in pilot holes drilled with my pin drill.

The rabbet from frame 12 (midship frame) to the bow has not been cut yet and the guard board blank is laying flush with the side of the keel and tight up against the dury frames giving me its correct shape.

The plank is a scrap piece of hardwood and will be used as a template for the oak version which will be fixed to the hull.

As you can see the plank lies quite nicely and I can see how the rabbet has to be cut :-))

My idea to bring the planks to correct thickness was to use my power planer, but turned upside down in such a way that I could feed thicker planks through the blade giving me nice smooth faces and to the thickness I need for planking. O0

What I have come up with works quite well provided the planks have parallel faces to begin with.

The planer is clamped upside down to my workmate, a lump of softwood is clamped all across the length of the sole, to the side of which are clamped two weighted tumblers.

These tumblers are fixed one before and one after the rotating blades in such a way that my pink wiggly bits on the ends of my wrists connot come into contact with the blades. :-)) O0 but the tumblers are allowed to moved upwards and rock forwards and backwards.

The idea being that a plank fed through the planer will be held to the sole while planing is done and all I do is feed a plank in one end and pull it out the other in one smooth movement.

Getting the right thickness is a bit hit and miss to start with but the best way is to shave off only a tiny amount and keep feeding the plank through the planer until your happy :-)) ;)

A 50" plank takes about 30 seconds in one pass which ain't too bad O0

Next time, cutting and fitting a guard board and fitting to the rabbet.
Title: Thinking of planking . . . . . .
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 05, 2009, 04:27:06 PM
Introducing 'Our Lass' :-))

She's a 200mm long solid carved balsa model I knocked up years ago to help me visualise how Master Hand's hull form looked when I built the first hull at 1/20 scale afew years ago.

When planking a curvaceous hull, novice builders get into a right pickle {:-{ (including myself when I started out) because they try to bend straight planks around a hull form that curves in three dimensions.

They say a picture paints a thousand words  O0 . . . . . . .

Photos 1 & 2 show Our Lass with a bilge plank drawn on her side in blue pen. It is how I have decided I want that particular plank to run.

Photos 3, 4 & 5 show a strip of card with parallel sides which I want to plank Our Lass with. The card plank has been laid around the hull but allowed to follow it's natural form, i.e. keeping it straight and bending in two planes only.

Wood planks behave in exactly the same way as the cardboard plank.

When I try to force our straight plank to conform to the blue plank run on the hull I find the top edge follows the line of the blue plank perfectly . . . . . . BUT! as can be seen in photos 6 through 10 the bottom edge is lifting away from Our Lass's hull.

This is the typical of the stepped look a novice gets when trying to bend straight planks around their hull.

Planking part two next  :-))



Title: Thinking of planking . . . . . . part 2
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 05, 2009, 04:36:46 PM
Planking continued :-))

Getting back to 'Our Lass's' bottom! {-)

Photos 11, 12 & 13 Now I have taken some tracing paper and cut it roughly to follow the blue plank run BUT I make it wide so it has plenty of room to naturally bend to the hull but in two planes and not three.

Already you can start to see the tracing paper take on a curve in outline but it lies flat to the hull along the blue plank run. :-))

I trace exactly the blue plank run while the tracing paper is pinned along the blue plank line, notice the changing angle of the pins along the run. Each pin was deliberately driven in perpendicular to the hull face at that point, it shows quite graphically the three dimensional - almost helix twist the blue plank takes as it runs around the hull.

The tracing paper is lifted off the hull and laid out flat and compared to the original straight cardboard plank. Photo 14.

The tracing is transferred to another sheet of flat card and cut out. Photos 15 through 18 show the new plank lying exactly along the blue plank line with no lifting edges.

I hope this demonstration of planking with the help of 'Our Lass' and her photos assist folks get their heads around planking :-)) O0

If you're wondering, Our Lass originally had a mizzen mast, bowsprit and a proper heel to the keel at the stern . . . . but one of my kittens decided I didn't feed him enough! >>:-( %) {-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on November 05, 2009, 07:41:25 PM
Excellent methodology Greg - and this rabbet guide for the garboard (and later) plank(s):

(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19422.0;attach=74669;image)

...speaks volumes.

Regarding the splining, it's a black art at first glimpse, but I think the use of well-marked formers, plenty of card, and a few attempts at cuts, is always the way to go.

Meanwhile, kittens! Ah yes ... I know their habits all too well.

(http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.goddard/dreadnought/otto.jpg)

They can be terrors.

He is.

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 05, 2009, 11:04:33 PM
Hello Andy,

Your comments are most welcome, nothing will please me more than if I can impart the knowlege I have learned and demystify subjects like planking for others.

To encourage another builder so that they attempt a scratch build is my aim.

I'm getting the hang of the write ups now, its just doing baby steps so I don't miss stuff out and keeping it in small chunks.

Some of my methods may be a tad unorthordox but if it gets a result who cares?  {-)

I'm hoping that if I do miss a step and leave folks going ''eh? how did he get to that point?'' they will ask me to go through it for them. I don't mind.

Your kitten is beautiful :-)) We have a bit of a zoo here, 3 adult cats, two kittens and two German Shepherds  . . . . . . I know what your thinking  :o . . . . yes they all get on like one big happy family? O0 {-)
Title: Planking half a potato
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 05, 2009, 11:38:49 PM
I can hear you say ''Oh yeah but he can carve posh hulls out of wood :(( not me though!''

You don't need to be able to carve fancy little hulls to learn to plank, just grab a used cereal box for the card and a reasonably symmetrical potato and a bunch of dress makers pins.

Sounds silly huh? :o {-) O0

Its a cheap way to learn to plank a hull and it will get you going without ruining you new boat project - its how I taught my self!

If you can get little planks to form around a half a potato you can plank anything, try lapstrake or carvel forms of planking. %)

Cut the potato in half and mash one side and eat it  {-) you only need one half {-)

Give it a centre line for the keel and mark off roughly a few station lines where the frames would go on a model boat hull.

Decide how many planks per side and  divide each station off with the number of chosen planks, you will notice each plank will taper towards the ends of the potato.

Follow the steps outlined above and also review my planking write up here

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19469.0

Keep it in the crisper in your fridge till your done to avoid things going manky in the build process if it's taking you a while, though watch out for the odd looks and comments from the missus! {-)

If you paint the result with a coat or two of pva glue on the outside before unpinning it from the potato you will end up with a beautiful tiny coracle that you will be so proud of :-))

If it don't work out, bin it and start again. Practice makes perfect. :-))

Works on apples too! ok2 :-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 06, 2009, 11:03:17 PM
What follows is a series of photos of the rabbet cut at the bow and hopefully shows you the sequence of events to get the desired results. . . . . . .

Photo 1 is a close up of the rabbet cut at frame 1, I do this at each frame along the keel at my dummy frame positions to gauge the angle of cut

Using these part rabbets as a guide I join up the rabbet groove between frames.

Photo 2 shows the chisel being used with guide depth marked on the blade to gauge depth of cut.

Photo 3 shows the bow with rabbet, rabbet back and bearding line and a small test piece of plank sat in the rabbet at frame one to check for fit.

Photo 4 shows close fit of test plank piece in rabbet, I'm aiming to get it this close all along the rabbet from bow to stern.

Photo 5 is a long shot down the finished rabbet groove from the bow, the rabbet groove from frame 6 to frame 14 is a simple 'V' groove and has yet to be cut.

Photo 6  %) I couldn't resist {-) I had to make a template from card to see how things would lay. I use card board templates to get a snug fit to the planking.

Photo 7 shows how the guard board template fits snug in the rabbet at the bow.

Photo 8  ;) well I couldn't just stop at a template could I? ;) {-)  

I took  a 300mm long scrap of planking material and cut the bow end of the 16mm wide x 4mm thick guard board and tried it for fit, shaving a bit off the edge here, test fitting, shaving a bit there, bit by bit until I get a snug fit.

Again I used the blue patch high spot trick by daubing the edge of the plank with blue marker pen (soft children's blackboard chalk works too) and pressing the plank in place before the pen has time to dry.

Then I play my save off the blue spots again.

For a long plank I would daub a short length and hold the plank in place, take it away and daub the next section along and re fit. I do this all along the plank and only then do I check for blue spots and shave off the blue high spots all along the plank.

I use a chisel held perpendicular to the plank edge while the plank is held in my cheapo work mate :-)) and draw it along the plank like a cabinet scraper to remove a fine shaving only where the blue spots are.

You might find a few high spots in the rabbet too but take care you don't remove too much.

I cannot stress enough that for good results the chisel blade must be sharp O0

It takes a while but is it worth it for the satisfaction you get from the results.

Photo 9 shows the forefoot & keel at the bow and a close view of the hood end of the guard board. The keel is 13mm wide to get an idea of scale.

Photo 10 is meant the show the nailing details at the hood end, I'm using 16mm x 0.65mm steel dressmakers pins to hold the plank in place. No glue at this stage, it's just a dummy run at this point. The pins are set in holes bored with a 0.5mm steel dress makers pin set in a pin vice which is in turn held in my 18V battery drill.

This gives my nails/pins bite and as you can see they don't split the delicate hood end of the plank.

Photo 11 shows the curve of the top edge of the guard board, this boat is gonna have some pretty curves O0 :-))

Also I am experimenting with the caulking seam, you can see this in photo 11.

Master Hand was work boat and the caulked plank seams were a prominent feature. At 1/16th scale they would be visible so I am opening up the seam between the planks to just wider than a scale seam. When I seal and paint the outside of the hull the sealing treatment will flow into the caulking groove between planks and hopefully give a caulked seam look. ;)

I do this by painting the edge of one of adjoining planks to two thirds the thickness of the plank from the out side face. I take my sharp little no. 110 Stanley plane and just shave off the blue bit all along the plank edge.

The caulking groove is about as wide as the thickness of three sheets of A4 photo copy paper.

Photo 12 shows the inside face of the guard board where it meets the bearding line, its a snug fit and I'm pleased with my efforts.

The rabbet groove does not have to be cut with surgical precision, just as long as it is even and smooth along its length. When the guard board is finally fitted, its inner edge will be cut to match the rabbet groove whatever its shape may be.

That said it is worth taking time to get these first planks next to the keel fitted neatly, they are the most difficult planks to fit properly and are the foundation for the rest of the planks to come. :-))
Title: More thoughts on planking . . . . . . . .
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 07, 2009, 11:45:22 AM
If you are wondering . . . . .

The 4mm thick by 16mm wide test guard board plank was bent in cold, no steaming at all. O0 :-))

Hardwood it seems to me to work better than softwoods but it's just my opinion and it takes nails and pins better.

The plank is going to want to return to its straight flat shape and will resist being bent around your hull. Softwoods will try and pull the pin heads through the plank in order to return to it's straight state.

This gives the impression of the pin heads being countersunk with a small gap being found between the frame face and the back face of the plank as the plank has pulled away from the frame.

Hardwood planks are not as soft and this phenomenon is less pronounced.

Of course I'm talking here of planks being held by nails and glue with no other clamping force being used while the glue sets.

You can see from the photo below how the test guard board takes on a severe twist but it is only held in place by 16mm x 0.65 pins alone - no glue either :-)) also it shows the pin drill I use to make the pilot holes through the planks and into the keel to take pins/nails.

The tiny crack from pin 3 was not caused by the pin being driven but occurred prior to the hole being bored and while twisting the plank into place, but is of no consequence. The pins are staggered one up, one down along the bottom edge of the plank towards it's hood end as a trick to avoid splitting the delicate plank edge. See top photo below.

Using nails or pins to hold the planks in place means planking can progress quickly avoiding the waiting time for planks glued and clamped to dry, four to six planks being laid per session instead of two or may be four planks being laid by the latter method.

I use clamps initially to hold the plank in place while the pins are driven, but then take them away to be used for the next plank.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that if you used thinner planks they would bend in easier, they do I agree!

But there is a price to pay!  O0 Thinner planks tend to take on an angular profile taking a tight bend as they pass each frame and then curving between frames exactly like the edge of a 50 pence piece.  The only way to avoid this is by using very close spaced frames which is unnecessary and costly.

Thicker planks will spring around wider spaced frames following the sweet curves on your building plan, and if you taper the planks correctly end to end you are reducing the cross section of the plank anyway and effectively thinning the ends which will easily bend into place.

The guard board and the 2nd plank on this ship are parallel sided and straight with the 2nd plank gradually widening out from 16mm amidships to 35mm at the heel of the stern post.

You may have noticed that the guard board does not run the full length of the keel but finishes short of the stern post - the edge of the rabbet further aft meeting the bottom edge of plank 2.

The reason for this is that the plank would be vertical at this point and you would only be cutting away deadwood and keel to replace the same with plank at a point where everything is narrow anyway.

The original builders would have been building to a budget and anything that would have wasted time and materials was avoided.
Title: Playing at shaving off the blue bits
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 08, 2009, 06:39:47 PM
Photo 1 When you see this much blue  O0 . . . . . . .

Stop! :-))

Your getting obsessive! O0 {-)

Photo 2  Same area shaved off

In the photos, the nearest bottom left is my tiny sanding block which is simply 360 grade wet'n'dry glued to a flat piece of planking stock, next comes my bit of plank all daubed blue which I rub up and down the rabbet groove to find my high spots and then comes my blue marker.

When the surface gets this blue the groove is so smooth you can practically see your face in it when it's cleaned up!  {-)

Another point to be noted is that while running the little blue block along the rabbet groove, you will notice tiny up and and down movements transmitted to your fingers which will indicate unfair undulations.

If you don't care to get your fingers all blue, just run the hardwood block without, high spot will become polished when viewed under bright light. :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 09, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
The rabbet is now complete on the port side, so now we flip over and do it all again {-)

But to do so, I have to remove the false frames and the test guard board plank.

The false frame removal was easy, snap off at the base and clean up the superglue on the wood surface with a sharp chisel.

But . . . . . .

Because I had driven the pins flush with the plank that hold it in place I couldn't pull at the pin heads with pliers. The plank was held so firmly in place I was forced to use pliers to break the plank apart, destroying it in the process. >>:-(

Pity - but needs must when the devil poo's in yer custard!  <*< onwards and upwards!

At least it proves my nailing method works in holding planks down while glue dries! :-))

The little cuts that can be seen on the bearding line at the forefoot are the remains of the vertical cuts through the wood fibres at the keel surface. This is done to prevent the wood fibres tearing as I'm cutting the shallow angles involved due to the orientation of the wood grain at that point.

I would have liked a grown crook for the forefoot area as used in the real ship but beggars can't be choosers while rooting unsuccessfully in the wood yard! {-)

The groove is tiny and will fill up with cascamite when the real plank is put in place, I guess I'm just being picky! <*< O0
Title: Plank nailing experiments . . . . . . . . . .
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 10, 2009, 12:37:30 AM
I've been playing with 22mm wide x 4mm thick planks and nailing them to a block of oak 46mm wide x 22mm thick.

I'm using 16mm x 0.65mm shaft diameter steel dress makers pins as nails driven into holes bored by a 0.5mm diameter pin held in a pin vice which is in turn is held in an 18 volt Ryobi battery drill.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing002-1.jpg?t=1257813024)

You can see the pins and their lid in the back ground, I have probably enough pins there to nail the planks to one side of my trawler hull, all for £1.95 . . . . expensive huh? {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing004.jpg?t=1257813056)

I've been driving the pins in with a old 10oz Stanley ball pin type hammer via a pin punch as close to the edge of the blank as possible just out of badness <*< . . . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing005.jpg?t=1257813194)

and right up to the hood end of the plank.

The nail/pin heads are 1.65mm in diameter to get an idea how close :-)) and no plank splitting neither! ;D

Here are two nails in the middle of the plank, one partially driven home and one pointing to its hole.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing001.jpg?t=1257813099)

And here are two photos of a block of wood 45mm x 38mm in section forced under the plank 170mm away from the closest nails, no glue remember?

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing007.jpg?t=1257813225)

I think you can see this plank is going nowhere fast! :-)) O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Whitecatdrawing006.jpg?t=1257813539)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 10, 2009, 10:44:10 PM
I was rummaging in the tool section of my local cheapy shop today and I found a set of these

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Cuntersunknails.jpg?t=1257892176)

They are hollow tipped nail punches and come in three head sized, this is the smallest and fits the heads of my 16mm pins/nails perfectly :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Hollowpointnailpunch.jpg?t=1257892278)

Further more if I drive the pins into the plank to counter sink them I can use hardwood cocktail sticks to dowel the holes just like the real ship! :-)) :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20plank%20nailing%20experents/Countersunkanddowlled.jpg?t=1257892384)

The bottom two nails on the right in the above photo I got a bit carried away with :embarrassed: I tapped them in too hard and drove them right through the plank <*< that is why the plank split at this point O0 {-)

And all six counter sunk nails on the right have fluff in them from sanding the dowels on the left six.

I drove the nails in close together to see how much punishment my 22mm wide x 4mm deep oak plank would take and I'm quite happy with the results :-))

When planking the model I plan to nail the planks while the glue dries, and rather than faff about pulling out all the nails when planking is done I'm simply going to countersink them and dowel them as above. O0

On the photos of my previous post you can see that the pin heads have been damaged by the flat face of the punch I was prevoisly using to drive the pins home, but the new punch does not deform the heads, nor does it slip causing the pins to bend. :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Jimmy James on November 11, 2009, 02:00:21 PM
Greg
 In Lowestoft is a full sized sailing trawler used as a sail training ship "Endeavour".. I think they have a web site if not Lowestoft Harbour could give you contact numbers
 They sail in the tall ship races and do cruses around the UK ,Ireland and Europe if you need info, photos or a trip etc--- I'm sure they would be glad to help...
 I THINK IT IS THE ENDEAVOR TRUST Lowestoft (Not sure of the spelling)
Freebooter :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Jimmy James on November 11, 2009, 08:16:49 PM
Greg
Just checked it's  "Excelsior LT472" Lowestoft sailing smack
 www.excelsiortrust.co.uk
not endeavor
Freebooter
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 11, 2009, 11:10:13 PM
Hello Jimmy James,

Thank you for your interest and the information, I am aware of the Excelsior Trust and the courageous efforts to keep this important piece of our sailing history afloat.

It may be of interest for those who wish to build models of these graceful ships, and who are following my build log here, that the Excelsior trust sell copies of the line drawings and sail plan of the Excelsior.

I my self have a set of drawings of Excelsior and if Master Hand makes a successful radio controlled model at 1/16 scale I intend in the future to build models of Excelsior LT472 and also of Ibex BM27, the fastest sailing trawler to sail out of Brixham and also a model of the Brixham mule William & Sam BM352, all at 1/16 scale.

Excelsior is able to provide me with real life details of how these ships were handled and sailed in connection with this build log.

Other sailing trawlers still in existence are Vigilance BM76, Deodar former LT453, Keewaydin former LT1192, Pilgrim BM45, Boy Leslie (the last flagship of the Blue Flag Fleet) BM312 now in Denmark, Kenya Jacaranda former Torbay Lass BM163 and Lord Nelson, one of the largest of them all built for Grimsby owners in 1885, now based in Sweden.

Also the City of Edinboro H1394 and later named the Willian McCann which was part of the Excelsior Trust up until 2004 but I believe she was broken up after breaking her back in a dry dock incident.

I may be wrong on this last point and if anyone can shed any further light on this last ship I would be grateful.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 11, 2009, 11:34:14 PM
I am currently cutting the rabbet on the starboard side of the keel and hopefully in the next day or two I will be finally setting up the keel on the building board with the frames

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/RabbetcuttingStarboardside.jpg?t=1257982208)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/RabbetatsternpostStarboardside.jpg?t=1257982256)

and getting to grips with planking :-))

P.S. The wine is not obligatory but coupled with the favourite tunes booming from the stereo . . . . . . it helps things along :-)) O0 {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Martin [Admin] on November 12, 2009, 07:41:16 AM


Ahhh! That's the tool I'm missing, produce of the vine lubrication!    :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 12, 2009, 10:02:37 AM
 {-) O0 {-) O0 {-) O0

Helps enormously :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Jimmy James on November 12, 2009, 05:22:12 PM
Use it all the time --- help's keep the job running smoothly--- Surprised you with your connections never used it Martin.
Greg
Thanks for the added info
Jimmy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 04:16:14 PM
I'm getting to the end of cutting the rabbet on the starboard side of the keel now,

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/CuttingrabbetatBowStarboardside.jpg?t=1258127549)

As I've mentioned before the rabbet along the length of keel from Stn. 14 to Stn. 4 (we have frames at stations scaled 2 meters apart from the face of the stem and numbered stem to stern).

Near the edge of the chisel can be seen a little carboard template, this held at Stn. 2 gives me the correct angle of cut from the bearding line into the groove. It was transferred from the drawings and I have similar templates for the waterlines.

But from Stn. 4 forward into the forefoot the angles in the groove start to change dramatically as can be seen above, and we need to get this right if our planks are to sit properly.

The way I do this is to take a small section of plank cut to the correct thickness and sit it in the rabbet so that the outside face of the plank matches the rabbet line and the inside face meets the bearding line. Using the sections and water lines marked on the side of the keel I have reference points that I can work back to the line drawings.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/CheckingplanksectionforfitStn2.jpg?t=1258127600)

In the photo above you can see my little plank bit set in the rabbet at Stn. 2, I set the plank roughly how the planks will run in relationship to the groove and I'm only interested in the end face of the plank and how it sits in the rabbet groove at that particular point.

Using Station 2 and waterlines LL6 through LL0 as reference points I roughly cut out the rabbet at these points and then cut out the remaining rabbet between these points carefully matching it all up.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/CheckingplanksectionforfitLL6.jpg?t=1258127846)

Above, plank bit for fit at LL6

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/CheckingplanksectionforfitLL5.jpg?t=1258127948)

Above, plank bit for fit at LL5

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/CheckingplanksectionforfitLL4.jpg?t=1258128024)

At Stn.4 I'm using the bottom edge of the plank bit and the front corner edge to check for fit, as you can see I've gone a tad mad and cut a fraction too deep :o >>:-( . . . . . .

But nobody is perfect!  ;)

Least of all me.  {-) O0

The same happened sometimes in the real ship yards and planks hood ends were packed out with thin shims of wood :o O0, I will do the same so it's not the end of the world. :-))

You can see just above LL4 the point to which I have cut the rabbet so far and from right to left above can be seen the rabbet line, rabbet back line and bearing lines to which I cut the groove.

Between water line LL0 and the top if the stem the planks form a vertical wall from stem to stern.

The ship was designed to have vertical sides from the water line to top of rail so that the fishermen working the trawl had an easier life hauling the trawl aboard.

This coupled with the straight vertical stem means the rabbet will go back to being a straight groove from waterline LL0 upwards which makes life simpler in cutting the rabbet groove. :-))

When I'm happy with things so far I take tiny blocks of wood faced with various grades of wet & dry glass paper and rub the non papered corners up and down the groove daubed in marker pen as before.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/Whitecatdrawing.jpg?t=1258130061)

High spots are graphically picked out as seen above and we play shave off the black bits this time! :-)) ;) but only in the groove, never at the rabbet or bearding line. :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on November 13, 2009, 06:55:35 PM
As they say in the world of the internet,

nom nom nom

 %%

Here's one of the nicest rabbets I've seen in the real world ever:

(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/Stem65.jpg)

(That's the half-finished stem from a guy making a catboat on the wooden boat forum (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79099) - full size - and his woodwork is a marvel. But you can't go read that thread Greg, because he's slower than I am, and you'll not have time to show us what's next!!)

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 13, 2009, 08:26:07 PM
Yeah tis lovely I confess :-)) :kiss: O0 :kiss: {-) {-)

I like the saw cuts to find the bevelled stem side faces, neat trick! :-))

The waste stuff comes off in lumps when bashed with a chisel from the sides and you keep going till there is no more saw cut and plane up till your there :-))

Mustn't go look though, I'll never get anything done! Resist! resist!  Arrrrggghhh! {-)

I'm a frustrated full size boat builder myself >>:-( :((

I got to be content with models O0

*sigh!* :-)) ok2

One day!
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 14, 2009, 01:10:51 AM
Dreadnought's post (thanks Dreadnought :-))) sent me peeking at the cat boat thread and the beautiful work therein . . . . .

And slowed me down on my own rabbet cutting! >>:-( >>:-( {-) {-) O0

But I got to thinking . . . .

For those of you out there that are taking the first steps into scratch building and following full size practices in cutting rabbets etc. things might seem a little odd looking.

You've spent hours pouring over the ships lines on your drawing and you trust the naval architect's lines and curves implicitly and all seems well and right and your ready! :-)) O0

Then you come to the point of putting chisel to wood, you've plotted things out carefully and the lines drawn on the wood are perfect the chisel edge is sharp.

But yet it hovers over a proposed cut and those little alarm bells are clanging away in your head! <*<

It seems like a minefield of strange curves and shapes! {:-{

That shape can't be right! it looks odd! %) :((

Calm down!  {-) grab a cuppa (or maybe something stronger :-))) and go back to the drawings.

They are there to help you.

If you are unfamiliar with how an open rabbet looks without its cladding of planking to hide it, the shapes and angles will seem strange and odd looking and your sure the planks won't fit.

Relax! :-)) O0

Use the station lines and water lines and make template for places your not sure of.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/Allwaterlinetemplatesshowinganglesg.jpg?t=1258158472)

Taking tracings from the drawings, cut templates from cardboard making the angle from the side face of the stem to the angle that the planks meet it for each water line.

Don't panic if your lines are to out side of planking as mine are. The outside face of the planking and the inside face will be parallel so the angle at which it's faces meets the stem will be the same.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/LL1templateinplacewithwedgefrombear.jpg?t=1258158629)

Place the template perpendicular to the side face of the stem at its plotted position line marked on the stem side, this will now give you the correct angle at which the chisel will make its cut into the wood.

Make a vertical cut at the rabbet back line and make a shallow cut to meet it matching the angle of the template but close in to the rabbet back cut just made.

Take another slice, and another and another working back towards the bearding line and all the while matching the angle of the template and deepening the vertical cut at the rabbet back to match each new slice.

Eventually you will have cut out a wedge shaped hole as in the photo above right back to the bearding line.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/LL1templateinplacewithtestplankshow.jpg?t=1258158956)

Take a piece of planking stock and rest it on the top edge of the template and slide into the cut you have just completed. If your cut is too shallow as in the photo above, light will show through between the plank and the template (better too shallow than too deep).

You need to cut a fraction deeper at the bottom of the cut but nearer to the rabbet back face taking nothing away from the bearding line.

Try the trick above again until no light shows between the template and the test plank.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/FinalshapeofrabbetatLL1.jpg?t=1258159869)

Now you can cut out the bit from the rabbet line down to the correct position of the rabbet back line as above and viola! the rabbet is complete at LL1

Do this at all your water line positions and along the keel at the station positions, you will then have a clear visual clue to cutting and completing the rabbet between these points.

The more keels you cut, the more you will become familiar with these strange shapes and later when the planks fit snugly into the rabbet groove you worked so hard on. . . .

It will all suddenly make sense! ;) :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on November 14, 2009, 04:37:42 AM
Greggy1964 says.... "Calm down!   grab a cuppa (or maybe something stronger ) and go back to the drawings"

Excellent postings on the fundementals of plank turning direction Greg thank you ...... :-))..............Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 14, 2009, 09:28:16 AM
Morning Derek

Happy to oblige :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 14, 2009, 09:44:29 AM
We're getting there,

at last! {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/Testplankinlastnotchatstemhead.jpg?t=1258190944)

This is the last notch cut for the rabbet at deck level, starboard side.

The stemhead projects above this point to support the bulwarks but I don't intend to do anything about the rabbet in this area until the hull is planked up and the decks are on. That way it can't get damaged. O0

The test plank is in place resting on the angle template and shows us everything is correct and swimming along nicely :-))

From LL0 upwards the rabbet groove is the same becuase the sides of the ship are wall sided from here on up.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20the%20rabbet%20in%20the%20keel/Torchhightsrabbetgroovenotches.jpg?t=1258191057)

Close up and ugly shows us where work is still needed, the torch is useful for throwing everything into shadow and it picks out those spots that need work in its and glaring uncompromising beam. :o :-))

But as far as the rabbet is concerned it's now just a simple case of two minutes playing dot to dot! O0 {-) and we're done.

Note the tooling marks in the stem at the forefoot?

Marks left overs from the planer at the woodshop where the timber was bought!  %)

*sigh!* More work!  {-)
Title: In frame at last!
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 14, 2009, 06:25:01 PM
Yeah yeah! O0

I know I know! :-))

Your supposed to set her up on the building board! {-)

But I couldn't help myself . . . . . . she just sorta took over and the next I looked, there she was in all her glory!

I have set her up as she would sit while floating in water.

Here is a walkaround gallery O0 :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Deckveiwfrombow.jpg?t=1258223508)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Forefootandplankrun.jpg?t=1258223523)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Noteframessatontopofrabbetastheysho.jpg?t=1258223537)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Plankrun.jpg?t=1258223556)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Portsheeranddecklinefromstern.jpg?t=1258223575)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Portsideshowingtuckatthestern.jpg?t=1258223597)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Showingsweetlinesalready.jpg?t=1258224048)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Stemportquarter.jpg?t=1258223674)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Sternportquarter.jpg?t=1258224108)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Straboardsheerlinefromstern.jpg?t=1258223744)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Underthestern.jpg?t=1258223763)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Whitecatdrawing010.jpg?t=1258223781)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Whitecatdrawing011.jpg?t=1258223796)

The last frame at the stern is dubbed the 'fashion timber' which is just hidden behind the stageing post to the left of the photo below.

You can see the horn timbers forming a squre stern on this trawler just to the left of the shipwright shaping the stern boards with his adz.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/sternframes.jpg?t=1258224932)

Off this frame hang the horn timbers and filling timbers which form her pretty stern and yet to be developed in a post entitled 'forming the eliptical stern' comming soon.

All I have done is knocked up the frames to show her lines for your enjoyment here.

Next time . . . . . .

Setting up the frames and keel on the building board proper :-))

Enjoy :-))

And before you ask, no its not a kitchen . . . . . . .  its a workshop with a sink and washing machine! O0 {-) {-) {-)
Title: Mocking up the stern frames.
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 14, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Looking at the last photo in my last post I realised Master Hand looked naked without her stern.

Sooooooo . . . . . . .

While she sat there, I spent a pleasant evening mocking up the stern frames to give folks a rough idea what the complete shape of my ship is like.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Hornframesondeck.jpg?t=1258237504)

The top corner of the stern boards in the photo below will eventually meet the ends of the cap rails at the top of the bulwarks.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Sheerlinefromportsternquarter.jpg?t=1258237531)

Between the horn timbers will be fitted filling pieces extending from the fashion frame to the under side of the covering board, these will give a place to anchor the planking.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Veiwonsternboards.jpg?t=1258237560)

The only timbers I haven't put in are the quarter timbers, these were huge pieces cut from grown crooks that formed the corners of the stern.

The ends of the stern boards, the bulwarks, and the ends of the top strakes of planking all were fixed to these pieces. The covering board terminated at its front edge on deck with a narrow strip extending down the out side of the quarter timber to meet the covering board.

You can see the space it would occupy in the photo below,  it ran from the top corner of the fashion frame, up through the deck and into the corners of the ship and stopped at the top corners of the stern boards under the cap rail known as the 'taffrail'

The taffrail ran across the tops of the horn timbers and quarter timbers to meet the cap rail on either side and provided an anchor point for the lower double block of the mizzen sheet.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Veiwundercounter.jpg?t=1258237605)

Here we are stood on deck just forward of amidships looking aft at the horn timbers and the stern boards behind.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Veiwofsternondeck.jpg?t=1258237629)

It's only a very rough setup but it helps me get things clear in my head as to where all the frame parts of the stern fit in.

I got the shape of the stern by extending battens back along the deck from the existing frames and struck an arch where the - funnily enough arch board goes O0  {-)

This board is a continuation of the covering board which forms the edges of the deck along the sides of the ship, it arches across the stern from covering board to covering board.

Hence the name. :-))

Then taking thin battens I projected back the frames under the stern to meet my arch board and from these I was able to determine the shape of the horn timbers.

Once all these parts are tacked together with small pins the whole structure becomes surprisingly solid even without the planking.

The stern was deliberately shaped this way because when the ship was towing her trawl along the seabed, it made her stern squat down on the water and so plenty of buoyancy was required in this area.

The stern boards themselves are at a shallow angle to help deflect following seas under the stern lifting the ship up over the waves and this helped prevent green seas from comming aboard over the stern.

After all, the skipper stood at the tiller just aft of the mizzen mast exposed to the elements and he was grateful for the protection the stern design gave him.

Now the above photos have been taken I'm going to take everything down ready for assembly on the building board proper tomorrow . . . . .

promise!  %% {-) {-) {-) {-) :embarrassed:
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 12:18:42 PM
Sorry! {-)

I couldn't resist this one O0

I alway like to get a perspective on the size of the real ship by placing a scale figure of myself on deck!

Childish huh? who cares? {-) {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Meondeckatthetiller.jpg?t=1258287433)
Title: Timber for horn frames
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 04:33:48 PM
Thinking of the horn timbers and how I'm going to make them . . . . . .

I have a whole bunch of 28" to 34" girth Holly logs that a my good friend Jez the tree surgeon gave me about 3 years ago.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogclampedtoworkmatebytruckstr.jpg?t=1258302168)

They have been air drying in the round under cover in my garden since then with the intention of using the wood on my model boats.

The wood is very fine grained and very dense and thus strong.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Veiwfromthebusinessendofthesaw.jpg?t=1258302191)

It will be an excellent medium with which to make deck planks, deck furniture and masts. :-))

But my current thoughts are on the horn frames for the stern.

My intention is to set up a false arch board with covering boards sat on top of the deck frames extending past the fashion frame to the other frames beyond.

This will support the horn timbers where they pass through the rear edge of the deck while planking is completed.

All this will of course be inverted on the building board and why I build my boats so high off the building board.

This is so that I might access structures like the stern while I'm building.

Cutting the logs has proved difficult as my local timber merchant won't touch them.

The tree was in a garden and as people do they bang nails into trees to hang washing lines fences etc.

Over the years the tree girth extends outwards as the tree grows enveloping nails and bolts driven into the trunk.

My friend has wrecked many a chainsaw blade chewing through these wonderful finds while cutting down trees! as well as blocks of concrete and stones >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( {-)

I had to resort to hand bouling the job with my panel saw :-)) :o

It was a tough job until I realised the cut was closing up after the saw had passed that point pinching the blade! {-) {-) {-)

A quick job with my bandsaw and I had a bunch of oak wedges, when driven into open the cut it opens up again which made my life much easier! O0 O0 {-) {-)

Once cut in half my bandsaw will slice the timber into manageable planks when fitted with a ripsaw blade :-))

It has taken nearly three hours with rests to make a 23" x 8" cut with a panel saw and I'm sweating like a jewel thief on a midnight visit at De Beers but I'm getting there! {-) O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 05:21:37 PM
I done it! Yay!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast.jpg?t=1258305554)

Look at that lovely model boat building material!

Just opened up, something no-one has ever seen before and I'm sharing it with you lot! O0 {-)

I found the perfect spot for a horn timber frame, you can just make out the grain flowing up the frame past the knuckle and up into the arm. The end that butts up against the fashion frame is on the right.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast001.jpg?t=1258306637)

Here is a close up of the knuckle, grain flowing round the bend just like in the real ship :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast002.jpg?t=1258306794)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 06:04:38 PM
Here is a photo of the same holly wood but cut 90 degrees the the original saw cut O0

The penny piece is for scale and for the U.S. folks is 8/10th's of an inch in diameter :-))

The face has been sanded with 120 grit glass paper, if I go finer the surface becomes polished!

The bark of the tree can be seen at the top of the photo and if you get your nose real close to your monitor, you can just barely make out the grain. :-)) {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast003.jpg?t=1258307557)
Title: Re: Timber for horn frames
Post by: dreadnought72 on November 15, 2009, 09:17:25 PM
While I love cooking, this is quite easily one of the best uses of a kitchen ever.  ;)

Well done with the cutting of the wood - I once planed a 12' pole round from square stock. Took a similar amount of time, swearing and lubrication.  O0

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 15, 2009, 10:56:57 PM
Hi Dreadnought,

Yeah I think so too :-))

Thanks mate :-))

Wow thats a lot of planing!

I had to do it all again as it still wouldn't fit in me bandsaw >>:-(

Now it does and I got a whole load of 2" x 1/2" boards to play with :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on November 16, 2009, 05:11:53 AM
Greg...do you need to let tree timber age or dry out ........stacked horizontally with free flowing ventilation...... after the initial splitting  <*< ?................................Derek  :-)
Title: Wood drying and conversion
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 16, 2009, 01:29:37 PM
Hello Derek,

I'm no expert ok? So I'm just reeling off what I have learned about the subject and by bugging my tree surgeon friend with questions :-))

My holly logs were meant to be converted to boards at the time the tree was felled but I got a flat no from my local timber merchant when I asked him if he would put it through the shop band saw. :(( >>:-(

His reasons were fair enough, he didn't want his machinery damaged by any bolts or nails that might be found in the wood.

Bigger yards have metal detectors which they can run your timber through but they will charge.

Better still if you have your own large band saw but be prepared for the possibilty of loosing a few teeth from the blade! :o

Because my logs are only short, in the range of 3ft long, and I had no tools of my own at the time with which to convert the timber, I allowed the logs to air dry as I have mentioned in the previous post.

The logs have suffered from some checking of the end grain as they have dried but the parts I will be cutting from the boards are relatively small so I can work around them.

If your considering using garden felled wood, it must be seasoned properly if it is to be of any use to you.

Ideally the felled trunk and thicker branches should be converted to useful boards and then stacked flat with thin lats between each board in a dry place but with free air circulation.

Your loft in the house is ideal for this purpose because the wood will benefit from the dry atmosphere, but in the sizes normally used for modelling purposes the stack needs to be weighted down flat and level with bricks or whetever you have handy or they will twist and bow as they dry.

It is important to paint the end grain of your newly cut boards with any old household paint you can lay your hands on as soon as possible after conversion.

Matt emulsion is good, this is so that the wood does not loose too much water too quickly. Wood looses 75% if it's moisture from end grain, think of it as a bundle of straws.

They should be left weighted to dry 1 year for every 1" thickness of board, if you cut your boards 1/2" thick they will obviously dry quicker and the thinner the quicker they will dry.

Also boards dried in the summer months will dry quicker than winter stored timber for obvious reasons.

In the end I was forced to convert my logs with a bit of grunt and a panel saw.

I now possess a bandsaw but its maximum depth of cut is 3" so I had to saw my logs into slabs that thick which was no mean feat I can tell you! :o {-) O0.

I found a guy on e-bay that was prepared to custom make me a blade with 3 teeth per inch for my band saw which is ideal for ripping up rough boards from logs :-))

Below are photos which show you where I'm at so far.

The conversion so far, note the splits in the end grain. We can work around these though, so no worries :-)) O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Hollylogconversionsofar.jpg?t=1258377496)

Planks roughly 450mm x 65mm x 20mm.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Planksroughly450mmx50mmx20mm.jpg?t=1258377574)

My mean looking band saw blade :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Cutting%20Holly%20Timber%20for%20the%20horn%20frames/Mymeanlookingbandsawblade.jpg?t=1258377609)

My home is an ex council house fitted with warm air central heating so the atmosphere is very dry. My New boards are going to be stacked on the floor under my kitchen table with thin slats of wood between and weighted down to dry until I require them. :-))

Title: More work on the horn timbers
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 18, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
I'm still working on the stern frames.

I'm busy plotting the developed shape of each frame on tracing paper over the line drawings.

I've also been busy slicing up the holly log with my bandsaw and the new planks have been curing in my centrally heated & very dry kitchen for the last 5 days.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Hollylogsawnintoplanksstillnotmoved.jpg?t=1258548068)

The photo shows that all but one plank have remained straight with only the far left plank moving about 4mm at the far end.

This is because that part of the tree had a small branch sprouting off to the left from the same area as the main branch at the top of the photo with some very confused graining to the wood in this area.

While planing up the planks I found some areas better suited to my horn timbers and planks 1 to 6 from the right in the above photo have been chosen for these frames. O0 :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Newsiteforhorntimbers.jpg?t=1258548402)

The originals would have been made of oak crooks and I have laid a piece of oak along side the holly for comparison. On the ship the stern frames were left unpainted and at best would have had a coating or two of oil to protect them.

This means the grain would have been visible and while I can cut 1/16th scale frames from oak, the grain will be full size and would look totally wrong! :((

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/GraincomparisonbetweenoakandHolly.jpg?t=1258548614)

Holly on the other hand suits my needs perfectly :-)) as the grain is tiny

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Grainflowingpastknuckleofframe.jpg?t=1258548688)

Here is the grain following the crook at the knuckle of the frame with my 12" steel rule below. :-))

Next time, plotting the true developed shape of the six horn timber frames O0 :-))

Title: Stern frames update
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 23, 2009, 06:40:48 PM
I have spent a frustrating time recently trying to recall my technical drawing skills from collage days lost in my dim and distant past, and plotting the complicated developed shapes of the stern frames have been a right pain!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Sterndetaileddrawing.jpg?t=1258998318)

In the drawing above borrowed from E.J.M's book it can be seen that the frames in question cant slightly inwards to meet the curving stern and also the top and bottom faces of each timber mirror the curves of the stern at each of the frames.

But their sides remain parallel and vertical. This can be deduced by their shape as they pass through the covering boards.

These frame shapes have proved to be most troublesome to develop on the drawing board and after several failed attempts I have admitted defeat. >>:-( :((, at least in the drawing office anyways! O0 {-)

The elliptical stern is a most attractive feature of this ship and I want to capture it in every detail.

I could keep going and know that the forgotten skills would eventually return to me but in the meantime building has stalled and this is frustrating me.

My next plan is to adopt the method used by the original ship yard and develop these timber shapes in situ on the building board by projecting the hull shape back from the existing hull frames using lats of wood rather like I did in the stern mock up I posted earlier in reply #55.

The arch boards I can fix in three D on the model and thus the points at which the stern frames pass through them and also where they terminate under the taffrail.

I'm sure I'll find this way a much more pleasurable route than banging my head against my drawing board! {-) O0 and you lot will see some progress! :-))

The other point that has been bothering me is just how all the stern members come together in the corners on the real ship.

E.J.M would not have been a ship builder and would have only recorded what he saw. But to my mind there are inconsistencies in the drawings.

The beam shelf and how it terminates at the stern has caused me the most trouble.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Quartertimberisosketch.jpg?t=1258999443)

The see through sketch drawn on tracing paper I have produced above seems to be the most likely way all the timbers sat from studying wooden ship building practices so far.

The sketch looks dirty because it is scanned from the tracing paper drawing :-)) %), here is a link to the original for a better look.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Quartertimberisosketch.jpg (http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Quartertimberisosketch.jpg)

Also in E.J.M's drawings above the deck planks just terminate at the front edge of the arch boards with no support frames underneath past beam 'U', I can only assume the 2.5" thick planks were dowelled into the arch boards?

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Shipinframeshowingcloseupsterntimbe.jpg?t=1259000553)

In the photo above can be seen a trawler in frame, the stern timbers are all in place including the quarter timbers but no beam shelf has yet been put in.

From this I deduce that the quarter timbers did not sit on top of the beam shelf as depicted in E.J.M's sketch above but rather it termites at the aft face of the fashion timber and against the front face of the quarter timber.

The quarter timbers most probably extended to the aft face of the fashion frame as in my sketch, and not stop short where it goes through the deck at the covering board.

Beam 'U' sat on top of the dead woods immediately in front of the stern post and and was a massive 8" x 8" in section compared with the 6.5" x 6" of the rest if the deck beams and would have tied the quarter timbers to the stern post tying the stern together.

All this has given me a right and proper head ache >>:-( >:-o as I want to portray everything correctly in such a large scale model O0

So next will come putting up the frames and keel on the building board as originally promised and we'll see where we go from there! :-)) {-) {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on November 28, 2009, 06:46:59 PM
There are a few important jobs to do prior to fitting the frames and keel together on the building board which I find easier before hand.:-)) O0

The centre section frames have their middles cut out to give access for radio, winches batteries etc. For this I marked out a perimeter 25mm to the inside of the frame shape to give me something to nail my planks to. At this point I leave the frames in ring form for strength and will later cut out sections of frame under the deck to form the frames for access hatches. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Centralframeswithcentrecutout.jpg?t=1259430175)

Next comes plotting of the thickness to the plywood frames on the line drawings, the water and buttocks lines now show the extent of the bevel to be cut on each of the frames. The closer to the ends of the ship, the more extreme bevel we have to cut.

Note all frames forward of amidships have their AFT faces on the station lines and all frames aft of amidships have their FORWARD faces on the station lines and hence we have fayed frame edges following the flowing lines of the ship on which to nail and glue our planks. These are plotted accordingly on the line drawings. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Framethicknessatframe20forplottingo.jpg?t=1259430568)

I've taken a leaf out of Bluebirds  :-)) O0 book in using an arrow to direct you to what I'm blathering about, you can see the faint line to the right of station 20 which is the aft face of my 11mm plywood frame, the extreme bevel at water line 1 from the front face to the back face of the frame can be clearly seen.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/1Plottingofbevelsatstation14withfin.jpg?t=1259431022)

In the photo above we have frame 14, the arrow is pointing at station 14 on the drawings. I have used a tracing paper overlay to plot the bevelled faces of the frames.

The line to the right is the aft face of the frame plotted using the buttock and water lines but to out side of planking. Right again is the actual line to be plotted on the frame, the 4mm plank thickness deducted.

Frame 14 has the finished bevel cut on its edge.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Nibsleftatframeendstobeshavedoffaft.jpg?t=1259431431)

I leave the extreme ends of the frames at deck level and where the frames join the keel as these areas are fragile and will be removed when the frames and keel are glued together and fixed on the building board. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Frame14takingabevel.jpg?t=1259431550)

I used a dremmel type multi tool with a tile cutter bit to cut the bevels, this is very quick to do and extremely accurate with a little practice.

Notice the dyson brush hung on the frames being cut, this is attached via a flexi hose to my dyson hoover and sucks away the copious amounts of dust saving me from chocking and making a mess of my kitchen. O0 O0 {-) {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Tilecuttingtoolinmultitoolusedforfr.jpg?t=1259431773)

I have found a set of cheapy £2.99 10" metal files in my local nicky nacky c**p shop which are ideal for dressing up stuff such as my frames after they have been attacked by the multi tool  {-) and do a great job of smoothing things out.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Cutoutforheelofmizzenmastindeadwood.jpg?t=1259432245)

Lastly I need to cut a step out of the dead woods to accept the heel of the mizzen mast (photo above), the mizzen mast has a forward rake as can be seen above just to the right of station 18 and was a typical feature of Rye built trawlers. Note the plotted section of the bulwarks at stn 18.

Later I will box in the mizzen and the main masts into their own little compartments. I'm doing this as both masts are in areas I'm designing as water tight compartments at the bow and stern in the ship and I want to be able to remove the masts for maintenance and repairs without disturbing these compartments.

When I have plotted all the bevels on each frame and cut them I will be finally ready to put it all together.  :-)) ;)

Title: More on frame bevel cutting
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 01, 2009, 10:53:00 PM
Here are more details of how I cut the bevels on the edges of frames,

The true station edge of the frame is marked black with an indelible marker, no cutting is done here except final trimming.

The bevelled face of the frame opposite is marked in red marker, this line is plotted from the drawings as mentioned in my earlier post.

First job is to set the tile tool in the chuck of my multi tool so that the shoulder of the cutting bit is just proud.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Settingcuttingtoolshoulderjustproud.jpg?t=1259705872)

This is done so that no cutting is taking place at the black line when the chuck runs up against the back face of the frame.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast016.jpg?t=1259706171)

Because the cutting tool is straight it cuts a flat even bevel from front to back of the frame, no messing O0

In the photo above the frame in question is clamped down firmly, the cutting tool is rotating away from us anticlockwise and we aim to draw the multi tool towards us with the front face of the chuck running up against the back side of the frame.

To start with the square angle of the uncut frame edge blocks this step but we keep drawing the tool towards us with gentle but firm downward pressure and at the correct guesstimated angle of the bevel at each point on the frame edge.

You will know when its working for you as you will see the typical 'plowed furrows' parallel to the frame edges as in the photo above, when you start to see the furrows in the black line your getting close to the finished bevel.

As the cut deepens and the cut surface widens you will see if you need to adjust the angle of the cutting tool as you go, remember the bevel changes constantly along the frame edge and your cutting has to take account for this.

The chuck can now run against the edge of the frame as shown in photo. Now we can relax a bit as the only cutting will be in the body of the frame down to the red bevel line because of how we set the cutting tool. No teeth in the shoulder of the cutting tool :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Cuttingbevelonframe2.jpg?t=1259706761)

Here is frame two, the forward most frame. I have deliberately stopped mid way in cutting the port bevel and you can see the whole process from the back to the front of the picture.

The black line at the back edge of the frame serves to show us if things are going too far, if it disappears we are cutting too deep at this point and loosing the true frame edge. Stop and re access the situation and adjust the angle of your cut accordingly.

In the photo above the shoulder of the cutting tool has reached the black line at the back and the red line at the front and the bevel on the frame edge is correct at this point :-))

It sounds a but hairy and aggressive but the tool is only doing what you ask of it, take it steady and don't try to cut too deep with each pass.

It is a quick and simple way of arriving at the bevel that has to be cut on loads of frames O0 {-)

Its sort of like taking a shaving off with a plane but with a rotating tool if you see what I mean :-))
Title: In frame at last!
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 02, 2009, 11:02:26 PM
Can you tell what it is yet? :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Canyoutellwhatitisyet.jpg?t=1259794899)


 O0 O0 O0 {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: A question of alighnment
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 04, 2009, 11:08:05 PM
Building on a flat level base is only the start of how I ensure the model sailing trawler I am building will turn out straight and true.

Each and every frame have the load water line and centre line marked on both faces.

The load water line is aligned parallel with the building board surface to give me a vertical datum to position each frame.

Additionally, centre line pylons are constructed at either end of the building board in order that I might erect a black cotton string line running parallel to the keel and down its centre line just above the base of the frame cut outs to accept the keel.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Centrelineplyonatbow.jpg?t=1259966399)

The photo above shows the inside of the bow pylon.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/FramesalighnmentpylonSternEnd.jpg?t=1259966435)

The photo here shows the back side of the stern pylon.

These two structures are screw fixed to the base and were set vertical using a spirit level.

The pylons may be removed later in the build once all frames are in place ready for the keel to be fixed in position.

The keel will tie all the frames together and I have cut a bunch of 15mm x 5mm and 5mm x 5mm ribbands from softwood that I will bend around the frames, pinning them in place to further strengthen the structure until the planks are fixed.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Frame1210veiwtowardsbow.jpg?t=1259967133)

Using the black cotton string line I can set up the frames exactly on the centre line and when viewed from above the string line gives me a visual alignment of the centre line on the building board surface with the centre line marked at the deck frame and at the slot to accept the keel with cotton string line.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Sightdownstringlinefromstern.jpg?t=1259968002)

When all four align up the frame is dead centre and correct on the port to starboard axis.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Frame10veiwdownoncentreline.jpg?t=1259966925)

The load water line fixes the vertical position of each frame on the aft face of the bow frames and the forward face of the aft frames with the frame positions on plans and marked on the building board.

I had difficulty aligning the camera to get a shot down on the frames from the string line to show you their correct positioning because the cotton is difficult to see on the camera view screen >>:-(

But I'm pleased to report both frames erected so far are plumb and level where they ought to be! :-)) ;)




Title: Frame supports
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 05, 2009, 03:27:01 PM
The frames are held off the building board by series of struts, the load water line (LL0) is set at 162mm from the building board surface.

This seeminly arbitrary 162mm is because it allows me to set the stem head on a pad of 1/2" plywood, the whole structure at such a height that I can easily get my hands inside the structure during planking.

An old plastic set square is scribed with this dimension so that I can easily check that all points that should be 162mm from the building board, are! :-))

The support struts and cross bars are 20mm x 20mm softwood held together with appropriate sized wood screws, holes are pre bored for the screws to avoid the wood splitting when the screws are driven in.

The two supports per frame are set equidistant from the centre line.

Both supports are fixed vertical fore and aft by plywood right angle triangles, one support is set vertical transversely, their locations marked on the mating faces of the frames.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast006.jpg?t=1260024149)

Fore n aft supports at frames 10 & 12, note these frames are set over the frame stations marked on the edge of the building board. The ships midship section is almost mid way between these two frames and very little bevel is evident in the frame edges. All other frames will be set up as described before, ie 2, 4, 6, & 8 with their aft faces on the station lines and 14, 16, 18 & 20 with their forward faces on the station lines.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast003.jpg?t=1260024205)

Transverse support, when the frames are set up and fixed, everything automatically lines up,

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast007.jpg?t=1260024324)

The keel is held at the bow by the stem being trapped between two blocks,

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast009.jpg?t=1260024387)

the plastic set square ensures each frame and the keel are set at the correct height.

At the stern end, the keel is supported on a pylon between frames 18 & 20 securing it at the centre line and at the correct height, a notch cut in the pylon top edge holds everything snug.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast010.jpg?t=1260024698)

again the load water line marked on the side face of the keel is checked with the plastic set square. If you look closely you can see a little pad of cardboard in the bottom of the pylon notch to lift up the keel structure to its correct level

Wood being a living thing is inclined to move with atmosphere changes and the wood in my keel is no exception! <*< >>:-( <*<

That is why I go to such lengths to make sure everything is held firm and in its correct position.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Keelheldstraightbyspiritlevelforsup.jpg?t=1260024988)

Here I have assembled the keel in place to make sure everything fits before I proceed with fixing the rest of the frames in place, the spirit level forces the keel to conform to my wishes :o :-)). The bonus is that the bubbles in the level shows everything is true. Note the weight on the end of the clamp arm to help straighten out a twist in the keel at that point! :o {:-{

When the frame at that point is in position the keel will behave! :police: <*<

When all is set up, we end up with a sort of three dimensional ladder frame structure that is very rigid and I will have no fear swinging on my oak planks to get them to conform to the hull shape :-)) and there will be no fear of anything moving as its all nailed down! {-) O0
Title: Frames and keel in place
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 11, 2009, 12:41:35 AM
All the frames bar No.20 are fixed in place at last, frame 20 will be installed tomorrow and I can start thinking of the stern framing and tickling the frame bevels to accept the planking.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Framesinplaceatlast.jpg?t=1260489891)

Here is a bow shot towards the stern, note the black cotton string line strung from the pylons at either end of the building board dead centre down the keel - I love it when a plan comes together :-)) :}

The spirit level is clamped to the stern post to bring it in line with its projected position on the surface of the building board, when frame 20 and its stanchions are in place all will be held in perfect alignment. :-))

The bubble at the top end of the level tells us all is well.

Because the keel was made up weeks ago, the wood has moved slightly requiring a tiny and gentle persuasion to hold its correct position.

The batten over the starboard frames is 14mm x 6mm pine bent in cold which is far in excess the size of the plank section but serves to pick out any high spots that need attention.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Allthathardworkandsweatovertherabbe.jpg?t=1260490205)

Same batten again but fixed at the bow.

All that time, blood, sweat and tears spent on the keel rabbet and frame bevels is paying dividends now I'm nearing the point of laying down the planks.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Sternveiwdowncetrelineifkeel.jpg?t=1260490830)

Here is a view from the stern post, looking down the string line.

The 1 1/4" x No.6 screws holding the frames to the stanchion uprights will be removed after planking is complete.

All the pine supports will be split away and discarded. The screws were bored and counter sunk in the frames so that they will be able to be removed by finger pressure after the pine supports have been removed.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Skeleton%20frame/Stringlineoninvertedcrownofdeck.jpg?t=1260491472)

This weired shot is of the string line on the inverted deck crown looking from frame 16 towards the bow, the shot is slightly off to the right and you want to shift to the left to line up the string line! {-) {-) {-) {-) a difficult shot to get bang on (I had three goes at it!) <*< >>:-(

The centre line is bang on trust me! ;) :-))
Title: Oggling a shapely stern
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 13, 2009, 10:18:17 AM
Now we come to make up the stern frames for real. :-))

I have some old plywood drawer bottoms that are just over 4mm thick which by a happy coincidence the thickness of my decks and covering boards.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast001.jpg?t=1260697620)

I have used a sheet of this plywood to represent the decks while shaping up the stern frames. Because of the deck chamber the stuff is forced into a curve rather like that of part of a cylinder which makes it very stiff. The board extends over the last three frames and is held in place from underneath by pit props pushing upwards from the building board.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast002.jpg?t=1260698049)

This allows me to take the plywood away, trim it and place it back without much trouble. :-))

By plotting the curve at the end of the deck and extending the line of the covering boards back I now have the correct shape of the stern knuckle in plan view.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Hollylogsawninhalfatlast004.jpg?t=1260698165)

And by applying thin wood battens back from the frames to the archboards I can get a clear 3d looksee at what we have.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/sternboards.jpg?t=1260698658)

On the real ship she had four 1 foot wide stern board that ran transversely across the stern down from the knuckle at the arch boards to where the hood ends of the planking ran into their forward edge.

The line on the above photo just forward of station 22 represents this point. Stn 22 also happens to be the point where the sides met the stern.

What I really need is some 4mm x 4mm battens to represent the thickness of the planking to make up the corners where the arch boards and the covering boards meet to see how to tackle the planking at that point.

The photos were taken in the wee hours of the morning last night and I was dying to nip out to my circular saw and run some up but I think the fun police  :police: and the neighbours might have had something to say about it  <*< <*< so I resisted the temptation! {-) {-) O0

Next time, developing the shapes of the quarter timbers, horn timbers and filling timbers so that we have something to hang the planks on at the rear end. :-)) O0
Title: To errr is to human
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 14, 2009, 01:27:07 PM
And this one made a right blunder :embarrassed:

But one which was picked up thankfully %)

While trying to work out the corners at the stern I was having trouble getting my dummy planks to run from the last frames into the corners of the stern.

Something was not fair >:-o >>:-( >>:-(

Time to dig out the drawings.

On studying the lines on the plan I noticed the line that marks the arch boards on the building board had too tight a curve towards the sides of the ship . . . . . . . and then I realised what I had done! {-) O0

The clue was in my last post
Quote
On the real ship she had four 1 foot wide stern board that ran transversely across the stern down from the knuckle at the arch boards to where the hood ends of the planking ran into their forward edge.

The line on the above photo just forward of station 22 represents this point. Stn. 22 also happens to be the point where the sides met the stern.

I use various diameters of piano wire to plot curves by springing them around pins at plotted points on my drawings to get a fair curve. What I had done when plotting the stern on the building board was to spring a curve with wire and use Stn.22 as the end points of the curve.

This is incorrect! >>:-( >>:-( and just will not do!

What is worse is that I was projecting the curve up to my new plywood stern form for my stern timbers. If I'd had blundered on the whole resulting stern would have been incorrect! >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Sternprofilecorrectatcentreline-1.jpg?t=1260795750)

If you look closely at the photo above, I have replotted the correct stern curve in blue, the arrow points at the end of Stn.22. All fine and dandy at the centre line.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Stren%20Frame%20mockup/Sternprofileincorrectateverywher-1.jpg?t=1260795771)

But not at the corners! <*<

The correct corners of the stern are a short way aft of Stn.22 which meant that the curve was too tight! :police: <*< (note the end of the sheer plank and how it twists to meet the flat profile at the transverse position of the stern boards - which is just about the only thing that is in its correct position!)

Mercifully my huge blooper has been spotted and I can now correct the error.

Which means all the effort in my last post has to be done again  >>:-( . . . . . this time correctly O0 {-)

As a side line, I'm using my steel cabinet scraper tied to a Lego set square with rubber tape to project the correct line up to my plywood stern form. As a scratch builder I see useful stuff for my project in every day objects which is part of the fun in the game :-)) O0

Back to the drawing board  . . . . . .  . . . . . AGAIN! {-)    *sigh!*

Ah! the joys of scratch building
Title: Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203 built back in 1994
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 16, 2009, 09:48:32 PM
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/lastscan.jpg?t=1260999519)

I was tidying up for Christmas and it ended up as a clearout and I came across this photo.

It was taken on 35mm film back in 1994, I took lots of photos of the build but sadly this is the only photo that seems to have survived.

I was going through a messy divorce years ago and was forced to sell most of the models I had built including this one which I much regretted later.

The model was built at 1/20th scale, the frames were 1/4" birch plywood with maple keel and planking. :-))

A guy from York bought it and he was very pleased with his purchase.

I think it fitting that the first model I have built since then is the same ship and subject of this build log :-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 16, 2009, 10:30:28 PM
I have been working on the stern frames and remaking the plywood stern support, the subject of my last post.

As part of all of this I've been looking at fairing all the frames in order that they might give me the correct shape of the fore and aft stern frames. :-)

I'm using pine cut into battens at scale thickness of 4mm x 6mm wide to fair the hull frames.

Again I have been side tracked, >>:-( this time by troubles with the last three frames in the ship. On the lines plans the frames seem fair but when put into the ship and viewed in three dimensions things are far from good :((

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Fairingbattenssternveiwatframe20.jpg?t=1261001431)

One of my planking bench marks is the transition plank at the top of the stern post where things switch to horizontal at the rudder port in the hull. This will be no 8 plank up from the keel and it cuts across the top of the stern post in a rabbet at that point.

In the above photo the bottom most fairing batten hits the stern post at this point. :-))

The problem has been that the batten could not reach this point with the original frames shapes at 16, 18 and 20.

Out with the multitool and its wobbly snake extension and my tile cutting bit. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Fairingworkonframe18.jpg?t=1261001658)

To get the battens to hit my bench mark and make a fair curve I was forced to reduce the frames somewhat and this can be seen in the above photo.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Planveiwoffairingworkonframe18.jpg?t=1261001737)

Same location from above, you can clearly see the steps that the battens sit in to get them to run in sweet curves.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Fairingbattenssternveiwatframe20.jpg?t=1261001839)

There used to be an unnatural hump in the battens here and I hope you can see that they now take a fair sweep into the stern. The port side frames are still the original shape and a comparison in shape can be made.

When I'm satisfied with the fairing on the starboard side I will make templates and transfer the respective shapes to the frames on the port side.

A bloke can never be sure a scaled up lines plan is truly correct until he builds a model from them and this build is a point in case.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Sternveiwfromframe14.jpg?t=1261002149)

Now the battens take a fair curve that I'm happy with.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Fairingbattensbowveiw.jpg?t=1261002463)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Preparing%20hull%20frames/Fairing%20the%20frames%20in%20readyness%20for%20planking/Fairingbattenssternveiw.jpg?t=1261002483)

Note the support post at the far stern supporting the plywood form at its correct height from the building board.

The chamfer you can see is to outside of planking and you can see an explorative notch which when faired with other notches yet to be cut will give the curve to inside of planking which will in turn give me the shape of the horn timbers (stern frames) where they will eventually cut through the arch boards in the deck.

The fun thing about scratch building is that there are new challenges to overcome at every turn O0 {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 17, 2009, 09:57:41 AM
It's been bugging me why my frames are so far out >>:-( >>:-(

On pondering the reason I have come up with the answer. :-))

There are two reasons combined, 1. the thickness of the plywood used for the frames, 2. the depth of the planking taken off the lines plan sections to get the frame shapes and the acute angle with which the planks meet the frames at the bow and stern.

The outside of planking is near enough on the mark when compared to the lines plan.

Problem 1 Frame thickness. The frames are 11mm thick which means the opposite face to that positioned on the plan sections are conciderably different in shape, particularly at the stern.

Had the frames been made out of 1mm sheet steel this problem would not have arisen.

Problem 2. The depth subtracted for planking thickness. If you were to take a plank 4mm thick and cut it 90 degrees to the plank surface, the plank will be 4mm thick easy! but if you now cut the plank at a shallow angle the resultant face edge is conciderably longer. My mistake was deducting 4mm from outside of planking across the board for all frames. Fine along the centre line where there is little bevel but things go all wobbly at the ends! >>:-( >:-o

Being a fairly experienced builder I should have realised this one but my excuse is that this is the first build after a 15 year absence! It's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! O0 {-)

When looking at the depth of cuts into the edges of my stern frames to make things fair it looks as though things will be horribly out of shape but then the bench mark point I mentioned in my last post at the stern post says other wise and as I say I had a similar problem at the bow with the frames but to a much lesser degree.

Life would be boring it it were just plain sailing! O0 {-) {-)
Title: The shape of things to come
Post by: Greggy1964 on December 18, 2009, 02:14:58 PM
Ive been grinding away at my dodgy frames, eking out their true shape  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Finerunaft.jpg?t=1261144469)

And running pine battens around the frames to pick out her curves.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Allflowinglines.jpg?t=1261144630)

Working out just exactly how the planks will form around that tuck under the stern where they go from vertical to almost horizontal in such a short space. <*<

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Justexactlyhowthattuckgoes.jpg?t=1261144732)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Sweettransition.jpg?t=1261144761)

The battens are rough and ready but show that by laying down the ground work with the frames and rabbet first, everything starts falling into place.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Thetoolusedtoshapetheframes.jpg?t=1261144932)

In this photo you can see the multi tool that has been responsible for this work . . . . . . . . . I love this tool! :-)) O0 {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Ribbandspickouttheshapeofthestern.jpg?t=1261145043)

The transverse batten at the stern marks the point where the planks will end and the four transverse stern boards will start. There will be carved blocks that fit under the quarter timbers in the corners. These will close off the end grain of the stern boards which will butt up to them

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Quartertimberblock.jpg?t=1261145523)

You can see the makings of this piece in this photo.

I'm nearly there.

Soon comes the best bit, laying the planks proper :-)) O0


Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on January 07, 2010, 05:05:47 PM
Just joined this site, Like the look of your Master Hand. I have a 5/8 = 1" model of a sailing trawler Albatross Of Lowestoft. 4 years old sails well, All rigging as full size no bowses. Double planked all over. has a retracting center plate and expanding rudder ( remote controlled) Keep up the good work .  Photo 1 reffed right down in a blow, No 2 nice summer sailing, No 3 looking along the deck.  HAMMER.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on January 08, 2010, 04:02:21 AM
Lovely model Hammer  :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on January 08, 2010, 04:08:32 AM
Hi Greg

I had problems with the tuck under the stern as well.
I soaked planks in window cleaner and tried steaming, but to no avail.
My 3mm x 8mm planks wouldn't do it.

My 'bodge'  %)
I went down to 3x3 and even 3x1, filing to fit at the ends.
But had to resort to some bodyfiller as well.

I look forward to your 'solution'. :D
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on January 20, 2010, 02:49:34 PM
My solution Tiger. well I had no problem anywear with the planking. I just cheated.  I cut down 5/8" + 1- 1/2" roofing batten (treted) into 3/32"+5/8" strips, this was the first layer of planks? This layer was rubbed down then any hollows or holes filled with sawdust and glue mix (old chippies trick) then rubbed down again. The next layer was 1.5mm ply cut too 1/4" strips. No water gets inside, except when the center plate box split and she sank!! Lukily the river was only 4'9" deap and the mast was 2" taller. Hammer where are you Greg.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 05, 2010, 07:09:20 PM
*bump*

(Andy scans horizon for Greg and this must-read build. "We've not had nuffin since December!")

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 04, 2010, 12:52:07 PM
Hello Hammer,

Your ship is beautiful, and I will be very happy if Master Hand turns out to be such a splendid model as yours.

Terry, Hammer,

The planking at the stern is difficult to visualise, the first three planks of the sides at deck level take a sharp twist under the stern where they meet the transverse stern board under the tuck of the stern.

When I get to that point I will show detailed photos of the planking for you.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 04, 2010, 07:57:51 PM
Welcome back Greggy, This is the best photo I can get of the secsion of planking you are on about. just where the flash is reflecting! Although I tried not to fill the joints but they don,t show very well. Just got my model back from the museum where it's been on loan. they only let me have it because they had a leak?
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2010, 08:22:15 PM
My plans are to start planking when the weather gets a little warmer ( I don't do cold!), this is so I can work outside with a planer to thin my planking stock to scale plank thickness.

Its not practical to do it in ones kitchen (tried it  O0 ) cos the whole house ends up coated in a fine layer of dust and I nearly had a  <*< mutiny  <*< on my hands in the form of my teenage daughters! :police: :o {-) {-) {-)

Funny old thing but they don't like a wood dust coating on all their trendy clothes (what are they anyway?)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on April 13, 2010, 09:11:44 PM
Greggy, In photo(not good) of the stern planking on albatross a couple of joints can just be made out. I cheat a lot but try to keep it secret but for you I tell. Albatross hull is double planked I didn't want an leaks. Despite this she has sunk, once it was at the Weymouth Show, what an embarrassment, The center plate box split, very strong wind only scale boat sailing. Luck was with me however, water 4ft9 mast 4ft11 so didn't impede the rescue. No other damage and the split repaired. First layer of planks 1/8 strips 3/4in treated tile batten. I then covered this with saw dust mixed with white glue, too fill any imperfections rubbed down after drying. The second layer 1/16" ply average 3/8wide, 1/2" widest 1/4 at narrowest.  I was careful not to fill the joints this time as like you I wanted the scale planking to show. Just like the preserved trawlers at Brixham, about 15 miles from me.  You ask about the stay sail control, cheating again, a fine thread exits a hole under the center of the horse onto a "D" shackle on the clue, hanging from the clue is a Gun tackle which hooks onto the horse when not sailing.                 
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on April 13, 2010, 09:25:31 PM
Don't you just hate it when your boat sinks? :embarrassed: {-)

I once run over one of those matchbox flower class corvettes with a little speed boat I built.

It rode up over the stern and got wedged forcing the stern of the poor corvette underwater.

In due time she sank stern first :o it was classic footage, wonderful to see, only I didn't have me camera >>:-(

Me speed boat settled back in the water as if nothing had happened with only the odd bubble to show for the drama {-) {-)

The owner was non too chuffed <*<

The lad refused to rescue it preferring to leave it 5ft down on the bottom of the pond radio gear batteries and all! {:-{

So I did the descent thing and dived in after it.

Bit of a damp sail day when the only bottom I intended to get wet was that of me speed boat! :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on April 14, 2010, 09:13:27 PM
Hello Greggy,

I'm currently building a static model of Master hand at a scale of 1/30 or 1" to 2 1/2'. E.J. March's book sits on my shelf.
While wandering through the vastness of internet, hoping to find some extra details of trawlerbuilding in Rye, I came across your topic here at modelboatmayhem.
I have to say, I'm impressed with the elaborate account of your project.  :-))
I'm a member of a french static modelling forum of Mr Gérard Delacroix, author of numerous historical monographies on shipbuilding in France.
This is the link to my topic on Master Hand : http://forum.aceboard.net/5500-323-40359-2-Master-Hand-chalutier-anglais.htm (http://forum.aceboard.net/5500-323-40359-2-Master-Hand-chalutier-anglais.htm) .
You'll find lots of pics of my progress and methods there.
At this time the hull is in frames and the stern is being built up , with the obvious question of the quarter timbers.

unfortunately,  my free time is a bit scarce due to my job. <:(

Anyhow, as our projects are quite similar, I'll try to post some pics here every once in a while, or stop by to discuss building problems. 

Best regards,

Nick
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on April 16, 2010, 09:48:17 AM
Hello Duke of Brabant, :-)

Your model of Master Hand is beautiful :-)), I have often considered building her with scale frames and timbers as you have done and its wonderful to see a 'dock yard' model of her taking shape.

Now I know of your build, I will follow it with great interest :-))

The quarter timbers and how they meet with the frames, and particularly how the lower face of the timbers and the area beneath the planking in the corners of the stern is a difficult conundrum as different yards dealt with the issue in their own way as suited the master builder.

E.J.M. surveyed the vessel while she was being converted to a motor vessel as I'm sure you will know and he would not have had access to that part of the frames and so the drawings are necessarily vague.

There are a couple of photos early in E.J.M's book which give a clue but as yet my own research in the matter has drawn a blank.

If you discover information on the subject I would gratefully request that you let me know and I will reciprocate the gesture :-))

Regards

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on April 17, 2010, 09:03:26 AM
Hello again Greggy,

Here's a couple of photographs of the positioning of the quarter timbers as I interpreted the drawings in the book.
(http://eqd3gg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pMxTQfgHo_rpmmj7IEQNWXisP1pij4RJ9Yr7b30Xu05XyMl7awItp0Jvvxxa_4b3yES0iyFSdjDC7ovUhLO5Bz5c9s62ZMXW_/quartertimberportside.JPG)
This is a side view (obviously %)) with the quarter timbers sitting on top of the prolonged shelf.
Under the shelf on portside you can see a filling piece with triangular section at the place where it butts against the fashiontimber.
i fitted this to stiffen the whole and to add more fixing area for the stern boards and hull planking.
also visible is the arch board ( fitted temporarely)
On starboard side the shelf and how it prolongs behind the fashion timber is quite obvious to see.
The inside part aft and under was cut away to make room for a filling timber of the stern, hence the wedgelike shape. the outside part has enough body to hold the quarter timber, or so it seems to me.
(http://eqd3gg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pRxGRjgw7wzb3Lrq13806tpZUQ6GGNe-YmVfkulGk8F3uPTsAZ3RVEVS0lXZ56KySgqRGAk5SO46qzfTiOnw-cksPNiTf7aNS/quartertimbersternside.JPG)
In this view from the back you can see how much the shelf prolongation aft jumps outwards to leave room for a filling timber.

All of this I chose because of a number of hints in the book. Pages 282 and 285 the front end of the quarter timber is shown on top of the shelf and the bolts are drawn too. On page 65 Fig.6 it says: "Quarter timber bolts on shelf. i think EJM mentions it also somewhere else in the book but I can't find it right away. {:-{

Maybe my solution looks a bit odd, but I think like this the quarter timbers are a bit more prohibited from canting at the fashion timber.
There's no beam behind the stern, so no "lifting" forces.

By the way, I think the choice of holly is nice, it's strong and beautiful, I've used it on previous models for decking.

looking forward to read your comments,

Nick

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on April 17, 2010, 01:41:33 PM
Hello Nick,

Thank you for your interpretations of the Master hand plans, you idea seems the most plausible to me, I have sketched out how I would imagine it to go which is slightly different to your interpretation but along the same lines.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Quartertimberisosketch.jpg)

If you follow this link, the sketch may be zoomed in on for a clearer image :-))

On the drawings beam 'U' is massive 8" x 8" as compared to the rest of the 6 1/2" x 6" deck beams and the reason for this I think is to support the fashion timbers by 'hanging' them on the ends of beam U like a cantilever which in turn is supported by the top of the deadwoods immediately in front of the stern post (fig 38 page 287).

In photo 22 you can see the quarter and stern timbers installed but as yet no beam shelf

In my 3D sketch above you see the top of the fashion timber together with the end of beam U and how I interpreted it would fit together, the quarter timber frame is 8" wide by 8" deep at its front face but the tops of the frames timbers are 4" moulded by 5" sided which to my mind means that the quarter projects inboard of the inside face of the fashion frame by 4" onto which the beam shelf some how runs (I have omitted the beamshelf itself in my sketch above for clarity).

I would suggest that the beam shelf cuts into this area of the quarter timber by an open mortise

The sketch redrawn below will hopefully clarify my idea on the subject

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/In%20Frame/Picture002a.jpg)

I welcome discussions with you on this any any other areas of Master Hand's build both on your project and my own O0 :-))

Regards

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on April 17, 2010, 06:38:39 PM
hello Greg,

Great sketches you've made. They're very easy to comprehend O0.
At first, that is after quite a few weeks of searching in websites of reconstructions of sailing smacks, I also tended for your idea of build-up. Most reconstructions or repairs show a single piece of wood for quarter timbers.
i.e. all stern timbers butt against fashion frames and shelves end in a notch on the ineer side of the quarter timbers.

But then this bolt caught my eyes, why would there be a vertical bolt through the tip of the quarter timber and the shelf unless it was needed to hold them firmly together?

So I developed a prolonged shelf on top of which the quarters are fitted. The idea was to see if the horizontal dent (the move from inside the frames towards the continuation of the outer mould of the frames) after the fashion timber would be feasable, not just to cut out of one single piece of wood in real scale, but also to find out if there was enough mass of wood to counter splitting or breaking due to pressure from rough seas.

Actually your solution makes way for stronger quarter timbers and probably firmer assembly with beam U. mine would need more ekeing above the shelf.
EJM was quite meticulous in his work but unfortunately he was not a ship designer, so some details are missing in his drawings.


Of course, that is not a real reproach towards the author, he's done a terrific job  O0

I can tell a bit about my choice of building Master hand.
My interest goes to local sailing fishing craft. There's a lot of types on the flemish coast and in the Scheld delta.
I wanted to make a smack as seen in Ostend for many decades, but plans of local builders are not readily found. :(( Then I found a copy of the longitudinal cutaway of Master Hand in a 70's book on flemish fishing.
The searh for March's book was short, and the result so far is not bad, if I may say so.

I am most curious to see your model being built and hope to see her sailing soon.

 At the end of may there's a gathering of traditional sailing ships in Ostend, I hope at least of the existing smacks will be there.
If so I'll try to visit.


Have a nice weekend.

Nick
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on April 17, 2010, 07:05:49 PM
Hello Nick,

Your dock yard model is quite beautiful to look at, her frames show off Master hands lines so well.

Not being able to see through a wooden ship to see her actual construction details can pose difficult problems as ship wrights would tend to follow in their masters foot steps regards designs.

Ships were built from carved half models with perhaps a few sketches with most of the construction details stored in the master builders head.

In the same stern area, how do you think the stern ends of the deck planks meet with the arch board?

Are they just butted up or were they dowelled into the edge of the arch board?  What do you think?

I find the subject fascinating but I prefer sailing models because this animates the subject so well.

Its a matter of personal choice of course, though saying that if my Master Hand is a success I plan to build another at an even bigger scale, 1/12 of 1/8 scale maybe.

I have the lines drawings for Excelsior, another Sailing Trawler, one who is still sailing out of Lowestoft.

(http://www.excelsiortrust.co.uk/uploads/SS5.jpg)

At this scale it would be fun to put in all the timbers to scale as you have done.

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on April 18, 2010, 08:42:05 AM
Greg,

As I'm a bit of al landrat, the technique of sailing is a gap in my knowledge  :((
But maybe one day I'l catch that virus too.

As for the arch board, there's no clarity in the plans.
the 4 planks after the helmport should rest on small shelves nailed to the outside of the helmport walls. There is no sign of such support.
I think the deck planks at the arch board side, probably rest on the arch board itself, there's no way to fit a suitable beam under their ends, the weak slope of stern timbers giving very little room.
Also the front face of the arch board is already above the stern timbers by about an inch, so the planks can't rest on them either.
I've made a notch in the arch boards front side to rest the planks upon. But it's still a bit of a fragile solution, the deck nailing will be fixed more weakly and I imagine the stern suffers a lot of strain in a good swell.

I'm off now, the next week I'm very busy at the job, will try to pop in when possible. O0

nick
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on May 02, 2010, 06:25:50 PM
Hello Greg,

Here's a few links to  websites of smacks.
 You'll find that some of them have an extended account of their restauration in recent years.
Pioneer, Lord Nelson, Pilgrim, Boy Leslie have great photographs of these works. :-))

www.excelsiortrust.co.uk
www.keewaydin.co.uk
www.kjappeal.org/index.html            (Kenja Jacaranda)
www.trinitysailing.co.uk                    (Provident, Leader)
www.pilgrimofbrixham.co.uk   
www.pioneersailingtrust.org.uk
www.vigilanceofbrixham.co.uk
www.deodar.se
www.lordnelsonsmf.com/lindos.htm
http://boy-leslie.no/index.html

Deodar, Lord Nelson and Boy Leslie are in Swedish hands, so you'll need to translate the pages (easy with Chrome)


As for the quarter timbers, I've excluded my experiment with the dented shelf. <:(
I'm busy cutting out two new quarter timbers in the way you suggested. Your idea looks quite solid with the quarters bolted to the fashion frame, bolted to the shelf and bolted to beam U. Beam U is probably locked in a notch on the inner side of the quarter, to keep the section area of the quarter big enough in this place.
In some of the above links I found some photo's of sterns being built up, but there are slight differences in the shape of the quarter timbers . Only for Pioneer some detailed photo's of the quarter timbers are inserted.

Hope this can be of some help,
 Soon as my new pieces are ready, I'll post some photo's,

Nick


Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: vintagent on May 19, 2010, 10:41:17 AM
Fascinating thread.
Any progress, greggy?

Love to see how you're working in less than ideal circumstances and not throwing money at it. Well done for that.
I too got a bandsaw from a Sunday market. 12 quid.  I got 5 assorted blades from ebay for less than 30.
The speed of cutting stuff is a joy now!
I think you're brave using oak. Having just restored an oak narrow boat, I can confirm that the damned stuff walks overnight. One day a gap, the next none. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, but if it's an old table it should have seasoned by now, I suppose!
Anyway, keep it up, it's going to be a beaut.
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on May 19, 2010, 03:00:14 PM
Hello Vintagent,

Thank you for your kind comments and your interest in this project.

Master Hand has been a project in the making and labour of love 20 odd years and in the beginning I built her to the finished hull stage at a smaller scale but sadly back then divorce forced me to sell everything to keep my head above water so to speak.

Still on the back burner, the idea remained until things were reignited last year and hence the subject of this thread.

She has been put on the back burner again while I sort out 'personal issues' once again but I promise I will pick up the baton again when things are sorted.

I apologise to all foillowing my thread for leaving you in mid air and I will make ammends in the future. :embarrassed:

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: vintagent on May 19, 2010, 03:47:52 PM
No problems, Gregg...Ship happens, mate.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on December 20, 2010, 12:17:33 PM
The photo above, I had to look twice for a moment I thought it was my model. Robert (Geoff) Y
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 24, 2011, 10:45:04 AM
I've decided to pull Master Hand out of the loft, dust off the cobwebs and continue with the building of her hull.

The Holly log I cut up into planks 14 months ago to make the horn timbers and fashion frames has been drying out on the top of my kitchen cupboards next to the central heating system. If its not dried out now it never will be! {-)

Actually the Holly planks have twisted and warped a tad but I made the boards thick enough to take this into account so I can plane them flat and true again.

I've been contemplating the internal structure of the stern a while now but constructional details are sketchy at best and I've had a tough time finding anything on the tinternet! I confess it's proved a sticking point in my progress.

My learned colleague Neil (The Duke of Brabant) discussed his ideas here last April during his beautiful dock yard model build of Master Hand (How have got on Neil? any progress photos?) see posts 88 through 94 here.

Are there any shipwrights who restore old wooden ships here who could shed any light? Or does anyone know of someone who knows a friend who has a mate who's a shipwright that I might pick his brains?

I'm contemplating building a large dock yard type model of the stern in pine so I can get things clear in my own head. Although my model of master hand is going to be a working model and I only need to represent external appearances only, I would like to get things right. :-))

Discussion welcome %)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on January 27, 2011, 08:17:46 PM
Great to hear of impending progress, Greg.  :-))

I doubt the holly will have suffered one bit for being warm and dry(ing) for a few months.

And, after a hiatus, there's things happening at this end of the country, too!  O0 More soon!

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: boater12 on January 27, 2011, 08:37:12 PM
Is this the fellow in question ;

http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/small/item/GTJ75122/

Jim.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 29, 2011, 12:50:28 PM
Hello Jim, yes that appears to be a model of Master Hand :-))

Hello Andy, well I've kept everyone on tenterhook long enough {-)

I've done a bit of digging and I have come up with a couple of photographs of Master Hand in the twighlight of her life.

She was re registered as BM 43 and convereted to a motor trawler by a company called Tamar Trawlers of Cremyll

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20photos/Masterhand1.jpg)

She fished right up untill 1971 and then decomissioned.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20photos/Masterhand2.jpg)

There were attempts to restore her hull but by this point her timbers were too far gone to match the pocket books of the would be restorers.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20photos/Masterhand4.jpg)

She was stripped of all fittings and abandoned as a rotting hulk on a beach near Torpoint and remained there untill the late 1970's

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Master%20Hand%20photos/Masterhand3.jpg)

When she was finally broken up  :((

A sad end to a graceful little ship in my view
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 29, 2011, 03:04:28 PM
On a lighter note . . . . . .

My model of Master Hand has languished in my loft for the last 14 months and as I said I brought her down recently and she's now resting among saw dust and shavings on my kitchen table once more to the accompanied groans from my teenage daughters! O0 {-)

There was a mild drama on setting her down on the table because the building board as substantial as it, which unlike the standard European banana was nicely curved along its length! {-)

The whole thing had hogged along its length by a good 5mm!

I'd assumed that if I rested her in the crook of the roof frames in my loft, everything would be straight foolishly relying on the roof beams of a 1970's constructed house would be even and true!

Silly me! O0 {-)

Fear not! Because everything is screwed together only and the keel has yet to be glued to the frames, I simply took the support beams off of the underneath of the building board and rescrewed everything down straight again with bigger and more plentiful screws, plus I doubled up these beams to hopefully prevent this happening again.

Amazingly the keel had refused to bow and remained as straight as a die, just shifting itself in its slots in each frame to suit.

On with the building process! I have now formed the shape of the quarter timbers in the corners of the ship.

The stern boards on the counter run athwartships, with 4No. 10" wide planks from the knuckle on the transom downwards. The planks run into the front edge of the bottom most one causing a bout of head scratching as to the run of the planks at the corners!

Photos to follow when I can find my camera :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 29, 2011, 08:32:58 PM
Master Hand's rear . . . 

The story so far.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture006.jpg)

In the photo above, the white cardboard represents the 4 10 inch stern boards and the grey cardboard represents the transom planks. These appear to be cut on a curve and you can just make the pencil lines plotting them out along with an attempt to board out the transom with straight boards which just doesn't work out!

This means that the original boards must have been cut from an oak log at least 22" in diameter with a curve radius of about 12 feet and 13 feet from end to end! :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture007.jpg)

Another photo from a lower angle, this playing around with cardboard templates gave me a clue as to how all these boards and the planking would come together in the corners of the stern. From a shipwrights point of view he has to be able to caulk all the seams to make them watertight.

I want to plank my model as acurrately as possible because at this scale (1/16th) the plank seams are going to show and I want to get it right.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture009.jpg)

I cut a board reperesenting the deck from an old plywood drawer bottom which I've propped up from the building board to the correct height and done the same for the Taffrail (the curved board that runs across the transom which follows on from the rail cap on top of the bulwarks).

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture010.jpg)

Here you can see thin wood templates for the quarter knees and 1st horn timbers.

These two temporary boards give me a fixed reference from which to build the stern framing timbers, and using lots of card board templates and fiddling about gives me an accurate idea in 3D what we're about.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture012.jpg)

Here is the roughed out starboard quarter timber in place ready for shaping to its finished form.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on January 29, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
The lines look fine Greg :-))....but must remember to balance the inbuilt stresses by keeping the runners & hence the planking even on PORT & STDB........the moggy looks pleased too   {-)....Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 30, 2011, 12:34:49 AM
Eye Capt'n :-))

I'm cutting blanks for both starboard and portside horn timbers starting off as one piece and then splitting them into matching pairs using my bandsaw.

More photos.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture017.jpg)

Here is the starboard quarter timber cut to its final shape.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture018-3.jpg)

A practice of the top most plank in the hull is fitted and its end where it butts up against the bottom most stern board can be seen. The other three topside planks will be similar at their stern ends and will look rather like the staves of a barrel as they transit around the tight curve in the corners of the hull.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture019-1.jpg)

In this plan view photo it can be clearly seen how the quarter timber transits from quarter round in section at the fashion frame to almost flat at the arch boards.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture021.jpg)

You can just make out that I've started to cut the mortices for the last two stanchions supporting the bulwarks in outboard side of the quarter timber just to add a little distraction to my work! :o

The quarter timber, 1st and 2nd horn timbers in place and cut to their almost final shape, when I come to fit the stern boards, I'll trim them one final time.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture022.jpg)

This photo shows the pretty curve the stern boards will take, how can you tell my plane blade needs a sharpen? %) {-)

The eliptical stern was a clever way of preventing a following sea comming on board while the trawl net was on the sea bed. The trawler would squat down on her stern while towing the heavy trawl.

The waves would hit the steep angle of the very bouyant transom, lifting the ship and rolling under her rather than shipping green seas on board.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture023.jpg)

The horn timbers are a tricky shape to make as they are a sort of parrellogram in section, if you look closely I have plotted the rectangular blank on the underneath of the taffrail and the outboard faces of the horn timbers are bevelled to match the curve of the transome and the inboard faces match these to take the transit rail which lives against the inboard end of the horn timbers half way between the deck and the taffrail.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/page287.jpg)

Here are the drawings of the stern so that you can see what I'm ranting on about! :-)) {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture024.jpg)

here is one of the horn timbers clamped in my makeshift wooden vice, this gadget is great for holding long fiddly parts for planing and chiselling. Good for planing the edges of planks too :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 30, 2011, 06:48:00 PM
You know how little things please little minds? O0

Well I was reading E.J.M's book last night for the millionth time but because I was focused on stern frames etc. I spotted something on the last descriptive page in the Master Hand survey section at the back of the book, and I noticed E.J.M had very kindly measured each plank that made up the transom, they go (from taff rail to knuckle) 11" wide, 10", 9", 10" & 10", and below the knuckle 4 planks 12" wide.

After spending the wee small hours converting my workshop into something resembling a kitchen again, I sloped off to bed tired but wondering why Master Hand's stern was that particular curve and shape, and also pondering on the shape of the piece of timber that the upper boards were hewn from.

I figured the Master Shipwright/Yard owner would have been a shrewd and wiley character, always looking for ways to kill a ton of birds with one stone. . . . . . . . .

Which is why I found myself back in my kitchen . . erm workshop Sunday morning at 7am! :o

You see the stern design is very buoyant, but it goes deeper (scuse pun!) than that, because Mr. Shipwright would have had to stand or fall by his buying of materials and the quality that he and his work force produced. Prospective owners would have had to be confident that the ship they bought from the shipyard would carry them safe across the waves and do its designated job well.

I've mentioned earlier in a recent post that the upper stern board would have to have come from the same curved oak log and I think I've proved it. Which is why I was bevering away so early this morning!

The oak log in question, I'm sure would have been about 16" to 20" in diameter and on a curve about 10 feet radius and 13 feet end to end.

I've always wondered why the Taffrail Rail is on a tighter curve than the outer edge of the arch boards? Why not have them on the same curve and make the job of building easier?

Well I think I've found the reason, and it's in the shape of the 5 boards that make up the upper stern and it goes back to our wiley Master Shipwright.

I'll let my photos explain . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture034.jpg)

Since finding this new information I re-cut the stern templates plotting the planks accurately.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture035-1.jpg)

Here are the individual upper transom plank templates.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture036.jpg)

And here's what's interesting . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture039.jpg)

My little 7am on a Sunday morning experiment supports the idea that all 5 planks could have come from the same curved oak log which is why I think Mr. Shipwright was a clever chappy in designing Master Hands rear end - economy of timber.  :-))

I discovered that with the planks being 2 1/2" thick and allowing for 1/2" for cutting planks from log and planing out saw marks - say 1/2" wasted between planks, they could all have been cut from a log of section 16" x 18" :-))

After all, when the jobs done and the ship is handed over for a stack of money you'd think he'd like to walk away with a few coppers in his pocket! O0 {-)

I'm fascinated by these little tricks and techniques that these old boys have taken to their graves, sadly the knowledge is all but lost but for the works of Edgar J March and my fellow model boat builders that keep these ships alive. :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture033.jpg)

Another reason for doing the stern templates again is that the ones I did before turned out to be skew-wiffy i.e. not a mirror image on the centre line - my fault!

I was being lazy! In the photo above you can just make out a red cotton string line running from the heel of the keel down past the stern to the centre line of the building board. I know I tent to go to the far end of a jam tart {-) but I do like things to be as accurate as I can make them.

E.J.M. helps me with this with all the tons of measurements bless him!

Master Hand was a beefy ship and my model of her is no less so! To scale those 12" wide by 2 1/2" thick boards on the lower stern equate to 19mm wide by 4mm thick! :o :-))

P.S. All my templates will be made available to those wishing to build this model to take some of the pain of scratch building a ship like this. :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on January 30, 2011, 11:04:08 PM
 :-))

Economy of materials must've been high up in the minds of those building commercial vessels like this.  O0

Lovely work.

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on January 31, 2011, 11:52:02 PM
If I've done my job right . . . . . . . . .

each stern frame component on the starboard side should be an exact mirrored pair with its portside component  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture040.jpg)

Here looking from the stern towards the bow

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture042.jpg)

Family photo composition  {-)

Final final shaping when bunging the planks on!
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 01, 2011, 12:00:10 AM
 <*< NEWS FLASH! <*<

All work in the ship yard was suspended today  . . . . . . . . . . . .

on account of feline giganticus taking up residence in the stern :o  >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Catonstern.jpg)

Work will hopefully resume tomorrow when he gives up his perch! O0 {-) {-) {-)

All them late nights pondering on how that stern would come together . . . . . . .

But when it boils down to it and you get down to brass tacks

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture043.jpg)

Things seem sort of . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture044.jpg)

obvious really!

Them there shipwright certainly knew what they were doing.

I take me hat off to em O0

Makes the job of following in their foot steps by a numpty like me possible! {-) :-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 02, 2011, 01:11:54 AM
Question?

If your a complete and utter numty like me  %) and you've been having a real bad time eyeballing some stern frames in a simple looking but subtly really complicated but pretty elliptical stern on a ship you'd like to model . . . . . . . . . . .

How do you create the stern frames so that its nice and easy to do, but it looks as though some zen model boat builder type has put it together?

Easy!

You cheat!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture045.jpg)

Its a lot of work but what you do is run some pine through a handy desk top circular saw, creating some 5mm thick by 15mm strips   :-)) . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture046.jpg)

and set them up . . .   two . . one either side of your prospective horn timbers . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture047.jpg)

Then you make yourself a flexible sander doofer like so . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/flexiblesanderdoofer.jpg)

Actually two layers of 1mm birch ply glued together with grip blocks at either end and some P60 grit glass paper super glued to the underside . . . .

(use the missuses best hair cutting scissors to trim the glass paperand end up in the divorce courts! be warned! heee) <*< {-)

And sand away till all is nice and smooth and curvey . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture048.jpg)

The idea being that if you've failed miserably to eyeball these horn frames accurately and wasted a whole bunch of time and wood in the process . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture049.jpg)

Its time to get down and dirty!

Honestly? O0

I've been having a real hard time with these seeminly simple shapes, but its been hours and valuable wood wasted!

This new idea is to set up thin sacrificial frames made from cheap throwaway pine de-marking each side face of the 6 horn frames . . .

Slap some horn frame blanks in between each set and whittle away till they all match.

If you refer back to the stern frame plan in post 107 you will see that the horn timbers are 5" on the side and the four outer ones are 5 1/2" wide and the two centre ones are 6" wide but each pair are increasingly trapezoidal in section the further away from the centre line.

Nightmare! :((

This way we whittle away at the outside surfaces until they match the pre formed sacrificial side pieces, then the inboard faces of the horn timbers are 5" (8mm at 1/16th scale) inboard of this.

Perfect!

Then what we do is remove each sacrificial frame and replace it with filling timbers to match the newly correctly shaped horn timbers!

Watch this space :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 02, 2011, 12:26:12 PM
Well done Greggy :-)) I did my trawler in much the same way. Except I made the horn and stanchions in one piece. I also fitted the rudder box first. R.G.Y.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 03, 2011, 02:31:26 PM
How can a bloke expect to get owt done  when there's trip hazards like these laying around?

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Triphazards.jpg) %)

 {-)

Rex (the one in the back ground) is steadily being buried in shavings as I'm planing a horn timber! :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 03, 2011, 11:15:15 PM
Stern frames done  :-)) :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture051.jpg)

Just the filling timbers to knock out . . . . .

The pencil line sections above are 1" spacings aft of the fashion frame and are so that I could take cardboard templates off. I used my vernier calipers to scribe the offsets from the forward face of the fashion frame for accuracy.

The idea being that I am now going to take out the sacrificial pine frames and replace them with said filling timbers and the templates will help me keep the nice curves I've worked so hard to create.

Plus they will be useful for others to take the pain out of building this pretty stern in the future. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture050.jpg)

I've attempted to plank the upper counter with straight grained planks cut to the curved templates I've taken off. . . . . . but even when steamed they split along the grain  >>:-(

Purists would call me but I'm going to use some 1mm birch plywood I have, four laminations per plank will make up the required scale thickness, I could sheet the stern in one go as the shape develops out flat neatly but as I said earlier I want the plank seams to show.

It's a lot of faffing I know but I'm unlikely to find a seasoned log on a 10 inch radius to cut planks with the grain running with the curve, though it would be nice!

Donations or suggestions gratefully received {-)

Nearly ready for the bit I look forward to most . . . . .

Planking the hull  :-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 05, 2011, 07:46:16 PM
I have all the filling frames in now on the port side and I've come to the centre section of the stern, and now its time I think to build the rudder trunk . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture053.jpg)

I carved the rudder trunk aperture carefully from a block of pine, taking the shape partly from the drawings and partly from the hull in front of me to get the correct shape. Its actually a quadrant of a circle allowin the rudder to pivot 45 degrees either side of centre. In real money there are 6 no. 5" planks around the arch and two 12" boards forming the sides.

The mold was first carved to a quardarnt and then the 6 planks were marked off, and using a chisel 6 flats were carved along the quarter cylinder for the planks to sit on.

Then it was a case of try fit - carve a little - try fit again with each little plank till they all fitted snugly. Oh the joys of scratch building! O0 {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture052.jpg)

I took hold of some oak planking stock to plank the aperture blank as depicted in E.J.M's plans, but not before I cellotaped part of a Morrisons carrier bag around the mold to prevent gluing everything to it.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture060.jpg)

I use Cascamite or as its called these days Polymite, as I'm familiar with it in my modelling escapades from the past and its a good glue for our purposes.

And it don't stick to Morrisons carrier bags neither!:-))

I use soft steel pins to hold everything in place for gluing ( they're all bent and twisted because I accidentally dropped the thing and then stood on it! And yes I know it looks like something straight out of a Beano comic! :o {-) ) and then bind the whole lot in a great length of elastic tape, this make an excellent flexible clamp which pulls everything tight but we can get away with this with a solid wood mold O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture059.jpg)

When everything is set, the mold pops out and the process of fitting to the hull commences.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture056.jpg)

If I've got everything correct it should slide down the stern post and just squeeze between the inner horn timbers ok2

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture057.jpg)

And I can continue working across the stern filling everything in.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 06, 2011, 12:07:10 AM
I've spent all evening just twiddling with the rudder trunk to get it to fit nice and I've trimmed it near to its finished shape . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture062.jpg)

It is proud of the stern frames as the planks would have been flush with the out side of the hull on the original so that the seam with the hull planks could have been caulked.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture069.jpg)

I will do the final trim once the hull planks are in place.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture061.jpg)

Here's a shot up the rudder trunk . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture063.jpg)

Here is a couple of the stern post at deck level where the trunking protrudes 1" above deck level.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture068.jpg)

Again this area will be trimmed when the deck is complete :-))

Back to stern framing O0 I'm keen to get started on hull planking proper! :-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on February 06, 2011, 09:07:26 AM
Great job on the rudder trunk.

A snippet that I read somewhere that may be of interest.
The parts of the trunk were tapered and formed like a barrel. The main  reason for the taper is that the pieces can be rammed home tight to seal them.

Another piece of useless information.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 06, 2011, 02:45:22 PM
Hi Tigertiger,

How wooden ships were put together without the aid of superglues and epoxy resins is a fascinating subject all of its own! :-))

The timbers around the rudder trunk on Master Hand are massive and the parts of the trunk are 3" thick which supports what you say O0

And I'm guessing they might also have treated the seams between each trunk 'stave' with a layer of 'fear naught' tarred paper as some construction yards used on the keel scarf.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 06, 2011, 09:03:59 PM
Greggy, in answer to your E-MAIL, I did get the control linkage under the deck. But as I have said before I cheat. %) Unlike yourself!  I will remove the hatch and post a photo tomorrow. In the mean time here is a description. My rudder stock is from 1/2" ali rod, from the keel to just below deck level. A 3/32" wide slot is cut down from the top to a 1/4" below the bottom of the rudder box. And 1/4" below this flats filed from each side leaving 1/4" in the center. A setscrew through the keel tapped into the center of the rod forms the bottom bearing. The rudder hinges are dummies.  :o The top bearing is a plumbing olive epoxied in the bottom of the rudder box. This also helps keeps the water out, as the box has to be cut away on one side above this, to take the control arm. The arm is a short bit of bicycle spoke fattened on the end and a hole drilled to take a clevis, the threaded end is tapped in the side of the stock. The length is critical as the angle swings the arm up to the deck and down to the hull. The reason for the 3/32" slot and the flats, an expanding rudder is fitted to improve sailing along with a drop center plate, operated only when in the water. (so don't tell anyone) :-X To finish the allusion a wooden rudder post and tiller is epoxied in to the top 1/4" of the slot. In your case I think the tiller could be lashed ether side to the bulwarks then run down below deck to a servo. This would be correct as the tiller would be lashed quite often.  Geoff R.G.Y
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 06, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
Hello Geoff,

Thank you for your detailed answer, I look forward to those photos.

My ship is at a larger scale so I have a tad more space but I like your inventive solution, but this will mean me cutting into my rudder trunk. {:-{ I hadn't considered the lashed tiller approach, but you're right.

In bad weather the tiller would be lashed so I could get away with this approach. I like it! :-))

Though the under deck approach would be tidier, I'll have to wait until the hull is right way up %)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 07, 2011, 12:03:33 AM
At last! %%

The last filling frame is in and the stern framing is complete . . . .

Well just a couple of quick jobs to do

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture070.jpg)

The quarter timbers need the mortice's cutting to take the last bulwark stanchions. I've made lots of saw cuts because this helps prevent splitting as I'm chiselling out the waste

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture071.jpg)

Which just falls out and saves a lot of work. :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture073.jpg)

All done :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture074.jpg)

Pop them back in their homes . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture075.jpg)

You may notice I've cut back the sacrificial frames at the upper transome area exposing the stern faces of the horn timbers, this is to allow me to glue the upper stern board in place while hopefully preventing me gluing the throwaway frames in too!

The false taff rail will be chucked too eventually but it and the sacrificial frames will play one last role in supporting the stern frames whilst bending on the stern boards.

And the other little job is to scribe at 25mm intervals across the stern frames to enable me to check the symmetry of the stern using half section cardboard templates.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/The%20shape%20of%20the%20stern/Picture078.jpg)

Its a simple job of flipping it over an comparing starboard and port and tweaking things with judicial fine glass papering until each side matches not forgetting to check longitudinally also . . . .

which leads me to one final step before planking and that is fairing up the rest of the hull frames in readiness for planking.

The reason I've gone to so much trouble framing the stern is two fold, first it's what attracted me to Master Hand in the first place - I do like a shapely stern ;) and second is the fact that I'm going to use oak for the hull planking (refer back to posts 11 through 15 here).

The planks will be to scale, and in section are approximately 9mm by 4mm and as the stern is so shapely I'm going to need a lot of frame material to nail and glue em to! :o :-))

Watch this space :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 07, 2011, 02:19:29 PM
Greggy, Sorry no nails in my hull all cocktail stick trenails. <: P1 Two screws removed from under grating, pull toung from under cover board. P2 The hatch, bowden cables operate controls, the fule pipe takes the mizzin sheat. Note the window rubbers around the edge for water proffing. P3 the rudder as seen out of water. P4 rudder extended. P5 the center hatch. P6 the deck back together. Geoff R.G.Y.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 07, 2011, 06:19:06 PM
Hello Geoff

Thank you for the photos and for taking an interest in helping me out, it's much appreciated. :-))
Title: Re: Planking Master Hand's hull
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 07, 2011, 07:20:18 PM
There are a lot of things buzzing around in my head regarding Master Hands hull planking at the moment.

From studying E.J.M.'s Sailing Trawler book I have found Master Hand has 21 strakes of planking on each side of the keel.

The top 4 planks or sheer strakes are 6" wide and 3" thick, the bilge strakes are also 3" thick, at 1/16th scale and converting to millimeters, these measurements equate to 9.5mm x 4.8mm and 4.8mm respectively.

The 4 sheer planks carry their 6" width right to the bow and from amidships to the stern but having no evidence to the contrary I'm going to thin the width of these planks from 6" to 2 1/2" as they approach the edge of the first of the transverse transom planks to which their hood ends butt up against.

From my research, this is how this tight turn at the stern was negotiated.

The guard board plank and the 2nd plank will also carry their width all the way to the bow, what this does is lift the run of all subsequent planking up the stem giving them a nice upward sweep.

If this is not done the ends of the planks at the bow take on a downward sweep which looks just awful.

I will describe this procedure as we go along which will make things a little clearer

Once all these planks are in place port and starboard I can then mark off the width of the remaining 15 planks per side. This will be done by fitting strips of cardboard to the remaining exposed edge faces of each frame and dividing it by 15 to get the width of each plank at each station.

Things are not set in stone at this point as I will be looking for a nice sweep and run through to the plank seams from bow to stern and I will widen a plank here and narrow one there to achieve this.

I will be detailing each step of the planking process and how I approach it as we go along with lots of photos, the idea being to take some of the mystique out of planking a hull in a scale manner :-))

But for now I have laid the first plank (how exciting!  :-)) ) which is the lowest transverse transom plank. This measures 12" x 2 1/2" (19.05mm by 3.9mm at 1/16th scale).

Because I have so much framing to nail to in this area I had no problem fixing it in place using 1/2" steel dressmakers pins.

I use the soft variety as they bend if wrongly hit with the hammer rather than snapping off as when using hardened pins, which would be impossible to remove. I could of course use brass pins but its an expense I don't need and besides the real ships planks were held in place by galvanised steel bolts which were countersunk and the heads stopped with cement and varnish. So the odd rust streak on my models hull wont be out of place  ;)

To get my first plank to bend to that tight curve across the stern I boiled it alive in a shallow baking tray of water over the hobs on my stove for 15 minutes. {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture001.jpg)

I was extremely hot when lifted out but very pliable

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture003.jpg)

It was clamped at both ends with those cute little Rolson quick clamps of which I have quite a large heap (you can never have too many clamps of all sizes and shapes in my book! :-)) O0 )

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture002.jpg)

As you can see it has taken up that nice sweet curve I worked so hard to create :-))

I have nailed it down (no glue yet) at each of my horn frames by two pins in each and three pins in each of the quarter timbers and are more than enough to hold it in place.

In my keenness to avoid burning my fingers and in a rush to get the plank on before it decided it ought to be straight and not curved  {-) I neglected to put pads under the heads of the pins!

The grand plan was to pin the plank in place till it set and then remove it and glue and pin it in place but in my excitement I nailed it flush! >>:-( so its going to be fun extracting the pins later with out damaging the plank surface! >>:-(

We shall have to see %)

It went on soggy and hot but as it cooled down the plank dried out completely which surprised me :o

I will be making a steam box out of 3/8th plywood to which I will be attaching either a wall paper stripper or I could use a kettle element I rescued from an old leaking kettle and fix it into a big aluminium pan I have.

The lid of the pan is a loose fit so I shouldn't have any pressure problems and I will be fitting a hose near the top edge of the pan to carry steam to my steam box.

It's all some what of an experiment I have in mind if my request to borrow my Mums steam wall paper stripper doesn't go down too well! {-) {-)

I shall of course be chronicling the steam box adventure also :}

Each mirrored pair of hull planks will be cut, steamed and fitted to the hull simultaiously to ensure symmetry. When I cut the planks originally I left them slightly thicker than the scale 3.9mm, this will allow me room to scrape and sand the completed hull surface smooth and clean without reducing the scale plank thinckness.
Title: Re: Planking Master Hand's hull
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 07, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
I will be making a steam box out of 3/8th plywood to which I will be attaching either a wall paper stripper or I could use a kettle element I rescued from an old leaking kettle and fix it into a big aluminium pan I have.

Plenty of the "big" boat builders - if the wooden boat forum is anything to go by - are using large diameter plastic pipe for steaming real timbers. Therefore you might find smaller diameter plastic pipe (offcuts from a plumber?) a better solution for steaming things in, rather than a wooden box?

Just a thought!

Looking forward to the planking, very much.

Andy, planking, quietly - yet quickly - at this end of the UK.  :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 07, 2011, 09:47:07 PM
No problem Greggy, I will enjoy watching your endevers.Geoff.R.G.Y.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on February 08, 2011, 03:01:02 AM
Greggy1964....just realised...this posting member called "Hammer" is actually a very well known member on Paddleducks.......& has a great sence of humor  {-) {-) & building skills  O0

Welcome RGY.... %% Geoff  :P .....Derek

Oh & BTW...here is my variation on the steaming concept...a one litre S/S jug with a loose fit shim brass cap & room for one plank only ....works OK ... O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 08, 2011, 04:04:05 PM
Yes thats me Derek. I forgot I am the HAMMER on this site. GEOFF
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 08, 2011, 04:15:38 PM
I was pondering how to best shave plank edges nice and true over the weekend while wandering in town like you do . . . . . and I found myself in one of the cheapy shops that have appeared in every town like a blot on the landscape . . . . . . .

But I found myself drawn to the tool section, and like every modeller I was casually looking for gadjets and tools that might help me in my boat building quest. O0

And look what I found!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture009.jpg)

These little (well tiny really) bench vices  :-))

They are made of aluminium and the jaws are 40mm wide and the vice can hold an object up to 35mm thick maximum. They can clamp to a bench surface of up to 20mm thick.

Now on their own, they are about as useful as a chocolate kettle   >>:-({-)

You see singly you can't put any force behind filing or sawing because the chuffing vice dances and shimmies about,

. . . . . . . . . . but thinking laterally for a moment . . . . . . . . .

When two or more, (the more the better) are used in tandem, everything is solid because the vices (whats' the term for a group of vices? a flock? {-) %) ) use the material being worked on as lateral support and everything is as solid as a rock for working.

And using bigger G clamps to grip the board the vices are clamped to to fix them to a more solid surface. . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture010.jpg)

In banks of two or more vices together . . . .

They come into their own! :-))

Perfect for shaving planking stock to the desired edge curve! :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 08, 2011, 06:04:46 PM
Hello Derek,

I've had a peek at PaddleDucks and it looks interesting so I've signed up :-))

Look what else I found in the cheapy shop!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture011.jpg)

I can drill around corners now! {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture012.jpg)

 :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Netleyned on February 08, 2011, 06:38:41 PM
Is that the old Woolies Greggy

Ned
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 08, 2011, 08:22:35 PM
Posts Moved.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 08, 2011, 08:26:11 PM
Hello Ned,

The very same :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 09, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
whats' the term for a group of vices? a flock? {-) %)

<thinks laterally>

Got to be a vice squad, surely?  ;)

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 09, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
 {-) {-) {-)Heee {-) {-) O0 O0

Yes of course! :-))

Thank you Dreadnought
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 09, 2011, 05:20:12 PM
Greggy. Have a look at Duke of Devonshire, Paddleducks - forum - construction. There you will fined my latest model, the boiler & engine are on forum- steam - boilers. That is if you have the time with all your great work on Master Hand. Geoff
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 09, 2011, 08:42:53 PM
Right!

I know what you lot are thinking!

He's started planking and he ain't even faired the frames yet!

Well not exactly! If you look back at posts 66 & 67 I found the bevels for each frame from the scale drawing I'd drawn up and cut them before erecting them on the building board, so they are nearly there anyway.

What I do at this stage is wrap 5mm x 5mm pine battens around the hull to fine tune things.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture013.jpg)

Check out my expensive abrasive tools? {-) The flexible sandy thingy far right spans three frames and has tape over its ends as we only want to work on the centre frame

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture017.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture015.jpg)

Springing battens around the hull high lights any irregularities

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture022.jpg)

Take one chisel pointed marker and ruin it by dawbing the frame edges taking care to brush the surface lightly as we don't want the colour to soak into the wood, just colour the surface. You could of course use coloured chalk.

Using the sanding tools, sand away at the frame edges, all the while checking with your battens.

You should only be tickling things here, no heavy stuff.

We don't want to remove any material from the edge of the frame demarking the hull shape, just take off the bevel caused by the thickness of the frames and the marker pen on the frame edges will help with this.

But if you get too enthusiastic as I did here . . . .  >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture024.jpg)

Its no big panic! :o

You did keep the cardboard half frame patterns that the frames were cut to didn't you?  %) These will show low points and springing battens in the area you are working on will blatantly show if you've gone too low as your battens will stand off the low frame while laying snugly against all fair frames!

If you have gone too low, simply glue a shim to the edge of the low frame and give it another go but with less grunt this time! {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture026.jpg)

Purists would draw back in horror and replace the entire frame!

Me? I want to get this thing on the water some day  %)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture025.jpg)

The two battens in the top of the above photo mark the upper seams of the guardboard and 2nd planks and the lower one marks the bottom edge of the four sheer strake planks.

There are 15 planks between these and once you're happy that all frames are fair, make quick cardboard templates of the completed frame edges and shape the edges of the opposing frames on the other side of the keel to match, we do want a symmetrical hull after all :-))

Now the boring bit, make strips of cardboard to the same width of the frames. Carefully cut one for each frame so that its ends just touch the lower edge of the sheer strake batten and the upper edge of plank two. Now measure carefully and using a calculator dived the measurement by 15 and plot the newly found plank widths on the strip and transfer these measurements to its frame.

Of course the planks will narrow towards the bow, and for now we are aiming for all the 15 planks to narrow evenly. In an ideal world this is how the planks will be cut but sometimes some planks will be narrower, and others wider to gain a pleasing effect.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Plankplan1.jpg)

Master Hand has the type of hull with a deep heel and the planks will get wider towards the stern, we will aim to gain this extra space by widening all the planks from plank two up the side of the stern post to where it disappears into the hull at the rudder trunk. At this stage I think plank 6 will be final plank at the top of the stern post and plank 7 will be the one that spans the side of stern post immediately before the rudder trunk.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Plankplan2.jpg)

Planks 8 & 9 will run into the back of the rudder trunk and planks 10 to 15 will meet on the first transitional plank under the counter at the stern and there will be two short infill planks covering the little triangular area between the rudder trunk and the first transitional plank.

This is the grand plan. . . . . .

But first I want to lay the guard boards and the 2nd planks and to set out on the frames the widths of the remaining planks, and using battens again at each seam see how they will look before cutting more planking stock.

I'm in two minds wether or not to make pine planks to the correct thickness and cut them as if I were fitting them permanently to the hull and then using them as templates to cut from the oak I intend to use for planking.

I have a limited oak planking stock so I want to avoid mistakes and so wasted this valuable resource :-))





Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 09, 2011, 09:30:46 PM
Here is a photo of Master Hand on launch day......

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Launchday.jpg)

The more astute of you will realise there are 25 planks in my plank plot drawings in my last post.

I originally took E.J.M's description of her planking to mean 21 planks plus the sheer strake (4 planks total), but now after studying the photo above he meant 21 planks in all. :-)

If you squint and stare for about 2 hours  :o at the above photo you can just make out the first 14 plank seams from the deck edge down the face of the stem, the 14th plank seam is at the point where the stem goes from vertical and turns towards the keel s :-))

Going on the visible plank widths there are only 7 more planks to the keel below.

This will mean that on the real ship the planks were 9" wide at the midship section, 14.2mm wide on the model.

I will be planking to the latter idea
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 09, 2011, 09:59:05 PM
Hello Hammer erm . . . . .  Geoff

I did look at the Duke, she's an impressive model.

I love the idea of using the handle of a milk carton for the ventilators :-))

A modeller after me own heart! {-)

I love those long slim hulls with the fine bows and shapely sterns.

Might have to build me a paddler one day O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 10, 2011, 04:07:20 PM
I've got 42 planks to cut and shape %) so I might as well be comfortable while I'm doing it!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture027.jpg)

There's nothing worse than trying to shape a long wobbly plank if its not fixed rigid . . . . . . . . . . . so I've dreamed up the ACME multi vice plank clamp.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture028.jpg)

The base is made from two scrap pieces if timber forming a 'T' section beam for stiffness with short appendages to allow me to clamp the beam to any convenient surface, but which can be removed in 2 minutes flat.

I have 4 aluminium mini vices clamped to the beam.

I broke one vice's clamp bracket by giving it too much grunt! <*< so I cut recesses in the webs using a countersunk bit and screwed the thing down <*<

And the reason I was giving it grunt was that I couldn't stabilze it to allow me to work on anything clamped in it as the vice kept simmying about! >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture029.jpg)

On closer study the vice had a casting flanges and filing these away solved the problem :-))

Now I have a new toy to shape planks of any size and they are held solid while planing the edges to shape, and I can work on 4 feet of plank at any one time.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture30.jpg)

Curved planks are accommodated by moving one or more of the three loose clamps closer to the fixed one depending on the tightness of the curve being worked on.

 {-) Patent Pending!  <*< {-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 10, 2011, 04:28:02 PM
Greggy, I don't dare to tell you anything as you are doing a brilliant job. But there is always a but I have found it is a good idea to plan the control runs before to many planks are laid. Something that's ease to forget in all the excitement. Geoff
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 10, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
Hi Geoff,

I'm not so foolish or presumptuous as to claim to know everything   :P and I welcome ideas and advice, and the input of other experienced builders. O0

The point of my build log here is to give those wishing to build a scratch built model to scale a chance to see how I do it and hopefully demystify the processes involved.

We all have our particular ways of doing things but if it can be shown that there are quicker or easier ways of doing something I'm all for it :-))

That said, my plan of champagne is as follows.

Fair the frames on one side of the hull using battens and bevel the frame edges so that same lay flush with an even curve in all three dimensions.

I've already fixed the run of the guard board and 2nd plank plus the bottom edge of the four sheer strakes.

Next is to divide the remaining frame edges by 15 and using strips of card laid on the frame edges, I'll accurately gauge the space required to be divided up.

I take the card and lay it flat and using a calculator plot the plank widths on the card strip, i.e. at station 8 the frame edge between plank 2 and the sheer plank is 200mm which divided by 15 gives 13.3mm plank widths. These I then transfer from the card strip and plot them on the frame edge at Stn. 8

When I've done this at all frames I'll pick out plank seams 3,6,9,12 &15 on each frame counting from the keel and spring 5 No. 5mm x 5mm battens around the hull at these points. The idea being to get a feel for how the planks will lay.

The battens will show me if planks will be happy at these positions, if they are not they will show me where they'd prefer to be and I'll move them up or down the frames to suit.

When I'm happy with the lay of these 5 battens I will score the frames fixing these plank seams.

Then I will divide up the space between these marks by 3 to find the plank seams between.

Again I'll run battens at theses points just to make sure the plotted plank seams are fair before scoring their positions on the frames.

Towards the stern from station 12 I let each of the 5 battens run out towards the transitional plank I have already installed under the counter. E.J.M. has given a clue as to how the planks run out up the side of the stern post as he measured the plank seams at this point in his survey of Master Hand's hull.

Once I've done all this to one side of the hull I will repeat the process on the other side of the keel using the first side as a pattern.

Only at this point will I be cutting any planks, and I will cut and fit one plank to the starboard side and then use it as a pattern to mirror its opposite number on the port side.

Then I will fit these two planks as pairs permanently to the hull before going on the the next adjacent pair of planks.

To find the shape of the next pair of planks I will use the edges of the newly fixed planks to find their mating edge on the new plank and its upper edge will be found from its corresponding score mark at each frame.

The plank blank is laid flat and a batten sprung around the plotted points and drawn in and then the plank is cut out wide of the newly marked plank edges.

Then comes the process of try fitting and finely shaping the plank edge to mate with its fixed neighbour on the hull.

I will of course detail all these steps with lots of photos to come :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 11, 2011, 01:30:16 AM
Here's what I've got so far :-))

I've laid battens around the hull de-marking the top edge of the guard board, plank 2, plank 3,6,9,12 & 15 plus the bottom edge of the sheer strake planks.

Some photos from different angles

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture032.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture031.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture033.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture036.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture037.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture038-1.jpg)

I've also plotted the top edge of plank 7 as well because this one runs into the top of the stern post at the rudder trunk.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture039.jpg)

Plank 8's lower edge will run into the rabbet that cuts across the top of the stern post and the hood end of this plank will run into the forward face of the rudder trunk. O0

All the battens lie snugly against the frames so my bevels are good, but I will spend a day or two staring at the hull from different angles and tweak a batten here and there until I'm happy O0

Doing this, I find I can get clear in my head how the planks will look and I can forsee any difficulties when it comes to cutting planks.

Laying battens on the hull at scale plank thickness has another advantage O0 , I can lay tracing paper over the battens and get an idea of the true plank shapes by tracing the outside face of the plank at it's edge de-marked by the battens. I can transfer the plank widths at each station finding the other plank edge.

Spring a batten around the points and hey presto ! {-) the true plank shape :-))

This little exercise highlights a dilemma >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture040.jpg)

This is a plot of plank 12 at the bilge area from the stem to just forward of midship section at station 10.  :(( I have transferred the tracing to cardboard and offered it up to my plank stock {:-{

My planking stock is 20 mm wide and as you can see, this plank has quite a curve to it.

I have two options that I can see.

Option 1 Cut each plank as if it were straight, steam it to death and force it to 'edge set' to take up the curve as I lay the plank on the hull.

Option 2 Make the plank in sections with butts at the frame positions. Doing this I can get this particular plank starting at the stem up to station 6 out of my 20mm wide stock and the plank run will be made up of four or five pieces

I think I prefer option 1 at the moment.

I will need to do some experimenting O0

      
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on February 11, 2011, 05:00:43 AM
I could be wrong Greg.... :D......but I think you may have been a shipwright in a previous life....... O0 O0

What do you think RGY ??????? .....Derek ;D
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 11, 2011, 08:41:22 AM
I have two options that I can see.

Steaming ought work well for your size of plank dimensions.

Butt joins (for short planks) are likely in the original, with a backing piece to provide support.

But there is an option 3:

Scarph the planks to make a longer/bigger plank. Plane an angle to the edges/ends of your two pieces of wood and epoxy glue them together. Use this stock as a big plank.

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 11, 2011, 01:26:07 PM
Thanks for your coments fellas :-)) :embarrassed:

We aim to please O0
Title: Re: Master Hand LT1203 Scale Planking Made Easy
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 11, 2011, 03:36:25 PM
Using the batten method to find the true plank shapes is easy as I described earlier.

I'll use plank No. 12 as before for this demonstration as it is one of the most curved being near the bilges of the hull ;)

I laid a strip of thick tracing paper (plastic draughting film is even easier to use if you can get hold of it) ensuring it laid on the batten flat and true.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture041.jpg)

Cut the strip wide and roughly to the curve of the plank. If you fail to do this you will find the batten you're tracing will run off the edges of the tracing paper.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture042.jpg)

Trace the edge of the plank batten using dots every 1/2" or so onto the tracing paper plus accurately mark the stations behind as these will be transferred to the cardboard template and consequently to the planking stock. It will give you accurate locator's when offering the plank to the hull, especially if your like me and having to concider making an entire plank out of four or five separate pieces. :-))  

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture043a.jpg)

Take your plank batten tracing and lay it flat and smooth (this is important) on a convenient flat wood board.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture044.jpg)

Using pins at the pencil marks you made, pin the tracing paper to the board smoothing it out (but not stretching it) as you go.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture045.jpg)

Spring a straight grained 5mm x 5mm section batten around the pins and hold it against them with pins placed on the opposite side of the batten. Now join up the pencil dots to make a curve. This will be the top edge of our new plank.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture046.jpg)

A nice curve should result, though sometimes it can be a lazy 'S' shape but don't worry, just follow the dots :-)) and don't forget the positions of the frames you marked off on the tracing paper numbered frame by frame of course! O0

Now go back to the hull and take your trusty vernier calipers and transfer the correct plank widths you plotted on each frame edge onto the tracing at their correct station.

And spring your 5x5 batten around pins set in these points.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture047.jpg)

You should end up with something like this . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture048.jpg)

Now using a pin or pricker (I buzzed one up in a drill using 3" of half inch round dowel with a dressmakers pin superglued into the end), you're going to be doing this pricking game for every plank template so you might as well make a tool for the job :-))

Prick through the tracing to a cardboard blank you've made taking care everything is smooth and flat again and don't forget the stations.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture050.jpg)

Now simply join up the dots by either springing the trusty batten round pins or if you're lazy like me play dot to dot game with a short ruler and pencil joining up three or four successive dots at at time (it still comes out as a smooth curve - weired I know! {-) )

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture051.jpg)

Now carefully cut out the plank template  . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture052.jpg)

And offer up in place on the hull . . .  ( the dog does move honest! he's just lazy and delights in tripping me up! O0 {-) {-) )

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture054.jpg)

If you've followed these steps carefully and with due diligence you will have a perfect plank pattern that will lay exactly where you plank is going to go, no fuss no fighting.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture053.jpg)

It just looks like it was there forever! O0 :-))

Now grab some planking stock, trace off your plank pattern onto plank stock, cut her out and nail her home :-))

The beauty of this method is accurate planks that will naturally form to the hull at their designated position and you may only need light steaming or no steaming  all, they will just lay down like a lazy cat basking in the sun :-)

Talking of sun, a word of warning!

Tracing paper and cardboard move with temperature and humidity, so the steps above should be done complete for one plank per session (of course you'll make the mirrored opposite plank at the same time) to the point of tracing onto plank material.

Don't expect to come to a cardboard template in two weeks time and expect it to fit the hull exactly unless you live in the Nevada Desert or somewhere like that! :((

Once you've done this process a few times it becomes a no brainer exercise that you find yourself doing automatically - just work slowly and methodically through all (21 in my case) plank patterns.

If nothing else you'll be able to bore your pool side mates rigid with your account of planking your pride and joy using traditional fullsize boat building methods! {-) {-)

An excellent way to get the water to yourself heee :-)) %)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 11, 2011, 07:56:00 PM
I agree Derek, Greggy must have the shipwright gene.
Greggy, your problem of the sharper curve making the cut plank to wide. Use shorter planks solves that one. In my experience looking at old boats, there are a lot of misconceptions among modelers. The deck is the classic nice wood with neat pitch joints and staggered uniform lengths of planks. Working boats had painted decks more often than not, as the crew had little time for the holy stone. The shipbuilders used there timber as economically as possible. (As you have mentioned.) With plenty of frames to maintain 3 plank spacing of joints. A few years ago in the Bag at Salcombe (the harbour up past the town) Someone was repairing the           Maria Assumpta, cutting out the planking and repairing with pieces about 18" long. On a pilot cutter I saw a noggin between two frames to carry a deck joint.  End joints on planks would not have wide joints like the side, unlike imitation wooden decks on moder liners. But don't look at mine.Geoff
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 11, 2011, 09:10:11 PM
Have you ever wondered how that awkward plank right at the top of the stern post should go so the planks go from vertical to horizontal at the stern?

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture055.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture056.jpg)

Well now you know! :-))

This of course is in the rough and I'm playing again cos it helped me get it clear in my mind too! {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 11, 2011, 09:27:52 PM
Hello Geoff,

Your too kind, thank you :-)

With regards to the curved planks thing, I'm going to use a combination of Andy's suggestion of scarfing and your suggestion of butt joins but land them at frames. I don't like butt joint straps on the back of planks so if I can't make them land on frames I'll scarf them :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 12, 2011, 12:17:33 PM
I've been pondering how I'm going to control the rudder over the last week or so and taking on board how Hammer manages it in his sailing trawler.

The problem I've got is that I'm reluctant to carve up my nice new rudder trunk of which I'm quite proud.

Last night I had a bit of a revelation as I was fiddling at 2am as I do often! %) but at the time I was chasing a totally different problem! :o

Recently I bought a drill attachment that allows me to drill around corners (see post 131 :-))) and I noticed last night  . . .  erm this morning that the chuck jaws close down to nothing.

You see I've been looking for a way to drill tiny holes in which to drive the pins I'm using to nail planks, I bought some cheapy pin vices a while back but they turned out to be as much use as a crotchet parachute {-) as drills just slip when under load.

This chuck I mentioned can hold onto a hair and tighten down on it using a chuck key. If I snap the head off of one of my hard dressmakers pins I have a makeshift tiny drill bit which is quite suitable for drilling into wood.

I've ground the diameter down from 1.65mm to 1.5 buy fitting it to the chuck and sandwiching the pin between two diamond sharpening stones and spinning the drill, thus  1.65mm pins driven in a hole bored by this new drill bit grip like hell on a lifetime sinner! O0 plus I don't bend my soft 16mm long pins while driving them in :-))

But I digress . . . . . .

The unit the chuck is part of is drives through 90 degrees to the drill axis which makes drilling for my planks awkward  . . . . .  so I took the unit to bits and of course it was driven by bevel gears!

That's IT!

I immediately dug out a note pad and began scribbling and a scan is below for your delight and delectation :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/RuudderLayout1.jpg)

Ignore Em361 - I have no idea what it is, it just happended to be on the piece of paper I found on which I urgently needed to scribble - focus on the pencil drawing! :-))

The shaft angle is 60 degrees and the horizontal shaft is buried in the deadwoods with a quadrant of a bevel gear on the stern end which engages on a matching quadrant rotating on and centered on the rudder pintle.

As I only need 45 degrees either side of centre for the rudder to pivot, so I reason I only need 1/4 of a gear for each component part which can be got from one single gear of about 1" in diameter

I plan to use a brass gear so that I can silver solder brass brackets to the cut faces which will pass either side of the rudder stock and bolt through it.

This way I only need to hack out the top part of the dead woods and part of the back face of my nice new rudder trunk without ruining it and if I do it right it can all be buried under the deck maintenace free :-))

A rudder servo fitted just aft of the mizzen mast, or better still another gear shaft driven off the forward end of the horizontal shaft mentioned above and set parallel to the hull centre line will take drive to the main radio gear bay in the centre of the hull, will operate the rudder.

I'll box in the gears at the rudder so that if any water does find its way up the rudder trunk, it will get no further than the 'gear box' and drain back out through the rudder trunk.

Anyone know where I can obtain such a gear?
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on February 12, 2011, 08:09:24 PM
Greg....if you cannot find a small bevel gear set in an old kitchen appliance....try these people...I think their engineering plastic gear sets are not $ prohibitive .....

http://www.smallparts.com.au/store/partslist/gearsbevel24pitch/gearsandgearing/wide/1/

If these are too large in diameter try a hobby shop that specialises in RC car sets........they may have differential spares .....Derek  O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 12, 2011, 10:00:31 PM
Great idea Derek :-))

I'd never have thought of that!

I been digging in my old stuff and I still have the differential from my long ago dead & defunct Kosyho Scorpion

Pulled the gearbox to bits, chucked the planet gears back in me bits tin . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture057.jpg)

Look what I got! And they mesh at 60 degrees too :-))

The Vintage Koshyo Scorpion Appreciation Society are going to be screaming at their monitors next! :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture064.jpg)

I've mocked up the rudder stock to scale size, its just missing the rudder blade. :-))

The pins represent the spacing between the stern post and the forward face of the rudder where the gudgeon's and pintles will eventually go, I've cut away part of one bevel gear to straddle the rudder stock and the pintle will pass through the gear centre positively locating it.

Eventually a brass strap will be nailed and superglued to the rudder stock and gear hub locking everything in place.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture063.jpg)

Also in my scrap box I found two Tamiya Sand Scorcher gearbox gears (cringe at more screams!), these are going allow me to side step the mizzen mast with a long lazy shaft to the radio bay in the centre of the ship. At the blunt end of this shaft will be mounted a standard tiller arm that would normally live at the top of a rudder post in a more conventional boat setting O0 to which I will attach the rudder servo via a ball and socket type link arm.

I've been playing with my mock rudder stock as I've been a little concerned at the shape of the opening of the rudder trunk as it exits the bottom of the hull. {:-{

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture060.jpg)

But I needn't have worried

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture058.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture059.jpg)

Rudder hard over to port! O0 Skippers gone over the bulwarks hanging on to the end of the tiller! {-)

Thanks again Derek for the tip! O0



Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on February 13, 2011, 05:54:14 PM
Greggy, Brilliant,  :-)) I like it. Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on February 13, 2011, 07:36:52 PM
Is there any slop in the differential set-up, Greg?

I'm currently wondering how to approach the steering in Racundra, given that I've a tiller on board and precious little else in terms of space to attach things to.

(That said, I'm developing a cunning plan...)

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 13, 2011, 08:38:57 PM
Hello Andy

I'm telling fibs! :embarrassed: The gears I'm using are from an old Tamiya Falcon and not a Koshyo Scorpion :embarrassed:

I owned both cars as a kid and that's where the confusion has crept in. Sorry!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture065-1.jpg)

Here is the diff complete as taken from the gearbox, I'm using both bevel gears and the rest is going back in my bits box

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture066-1.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture067.jpg)

The two gears that I'm using to bypass the mizzen mast are spare final drive gears from a Tamiya Sand Scorcher

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture068.jpg)

I confess that when I was a brat I trashed my Tamiya Falcon early on after building it. It was all plastic and could not stand up to the punishment my Sand Scorcher could take so the gearbox didn't get much mileage, I bought the car in the 80's

There is no slop that I can tell at the moment, but I've only jury rigged the setup at the mo so I won't know for sure till I get to the rudder build stage.

The falcon diff parts can be had on ebay here for £14.99 for the complete unit.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tamiya-58056-Falcon-Striker-Sonic-9335023-Gear-Bag-NIP-/380312252526?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN
 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tamiya-58056-Falcon-Striker-Sonic-9335023-Gear-Bag-NIP-/380312252526?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN)

And the Sand Scorcher final shaft gear can be had on ebay here for £4.99

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tamiya-Rough-Rider-Sand-Scorcher-Ranger-Final-Gear-NEW-/380128551901?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item58816d63dd (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tamiya-Rough-Rider-Sand-Scorcher-Ranger-Final-Gear-NEW-/380128551901?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item58816d63dd)

But if its any consolation I hate a sloppy rudder too >>:-(

 {-) O0
Title: Re: Master Hand LT1203 Rudder control assembly
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 14, 2011, 01:25:10 PM
More thoughts on rudder control and how I'm going to assemble it.

I've been studying the bevel gears I'm going to use and how the gear is going to positively locate on the end of the lazy shaft so that the torque transmitted from the servo to the shaft will be transmitted to the bevel gears and hence cause the rudder to swing. ;)

I noticed that the hole in the centre of the gear has two opposing flats so I did a bit more digging in my bits box and I found some more bones of the long dead Falcon car . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture071.jpg)

Here is the complete drive system for one side from gearbox to rear wheel . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture069.jpg)

The half shaft fits into the gear and originally a short free rotating shaft ran through the main diff gear and into a matching hole in the opposite half shaft.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture070.jpg)

The metal shaft that the gear was originally fixed to is 4.95mm diameter with two flats cut into the end. The hole at its centre is 2mm diameter. I'm hoping I can make a brass lazy shaft to the same diameter and match the end of the half shaft. I will drill and tap the end to accept a small bolt and washer setup to hold the bevel gear firmly on its end.

The lazy shaft will either be housed propeller shaft style, but I only have 13mm width of deadwoods in which to house it at the rudder so I may just sleeve the lazy shaft in a snug fitting brass tube and solder a grease nipple at its inboard end.

This setup will bring the lazy shaft unit diameter to about 6mm which will not weaken the deadwoods unduly - I've got the think of the strain the mizzen mast heel will impose on the same area you see! :-)) O0

Right! Now that's sorted - switch brain cell back to planking mode :-)) {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 16, 2011, 11:13:11 PM
Right,

I've spent the last day or three messing around making sure that frames both sides of the hull match and are mirror images  %),

I've done this by making cardboard templates of the beveled edges of all frames (particularly at the bow and stern where the bevels are acute) and transferring them to the opposite side of the keel.

I've then sprung battens around on the port side and with my vicious sanding sticks have sanded the bevels in under the battens while checking their lay along the hull, I've gone mad and gone a little low in spots but I've been careful not to alter the frame edges taken from the plans.

Confession time . . . . .

For some reason I can't quite fathom, frame 18 (the last one forward of the stern post) - see sections below . . . .

Frame 18 wants to be more wine glassy than it already is? >>:-( {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture074.jpg)

The red line is traced from a cardboard template taken from the hull superimposed over the original on my screive board. When springing battens around the hull, the original profile did not seem to fit in with the rest of the frames, so I followed what the battens were telling me and ground into the frame a little altering its original shape.

But I got a much sweeter run aft as a result which goes to show it ain't over till the fat lady sings . . . . or something like that! O0

I'm not worried, as this is what would have happened on the real ship when fairing the frames once they'd been set up on the keel prior to planking.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture072.jpg)

Port side looking forward. That dogs not glued to the floor honest! And he's not stuffed either! Its his favourite spot so he can be near his daddy! {-) O0 bless him!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture073.jpg)

Looking aft.

If I've done my job properly the hull planks should lay nicely now but I expect a little more tweaking as I progress with the planks down the hull.

Next up  . . .

fitting those guard boards :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on February 17, 2011, 05:14:22 AM
Greg...I love lofting & watching/viewing others loft work....

But from today  >>:-( .....looking aft.....outboard frame 10 appears to have TOO much belly between RL42 to RL44  {:-{

When I go back to the 9th February posting...the lines suggest that the next inboard frame No 8 has TOO little belly in this same RL location......

I hope it is not a parallel-ex error on my part........but it is so easy to review the work of others with a fresh set of eyes.....

BTW.....  :o ..I don't remember reading your planned planking glue system....please confirm......I am still a big fan of permanent bronze planking pins + the chosen adhesive .... :-)) .....Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 17, 2011, 01:38:59 PM
Hello Derek,

Thank you for your input though I'm not sure of your references RL42 to RL44 {:-{ ?

On saying that, comparing photos from 9th Feb to Yesterdays I can see a slight dip in the plank batten at plank 3 position (counting from the keel) on frame 8 in yesterdays photo looking aft.

In 9th Feb post, photo 5 does indeed show that a little could be shaved off frame 8 at plank batten 3 but if I remember correctly I did remedy that while comparing port and starboard.

What I intend to do as planking progresses, is to tweak things a little, it's easier to see smaller unfairness-es to my mind (and eye) when laying planks one against its neighbour.

The idea with the battens is to pick out any glaring errors in unfairness - point in case - frame 18 in yesterdays post.

I originally cut both sides of each frame from the same half pattern (taken off my carefully prepared lines plan) and cut carefully down to the line I'd drawn on the plywood.

I've also been very careful in setting up the keel and frames on the building board so technically the frames should not be too far out.

I do have a secret weapon to help me though that I haven't revealed yet . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture076.jpg)

Its a 300mm long profile gauge made by Vitrex, the maximum travel of each needle is 43mm

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture075.jpg)

Which can copy accurately complex profiles and I can compare port and starboard frames using it.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture077-1.jpg)

I plan to use this tool locally on the hull surface as I go checking side for side.

With regards to the planking process, I haven't got that far yet :-)

But since you raised the point, I plan on using Cascamite or as it has been re branded Polymite (same stuff different name!) for gluing the planks to the hull.

For nailing the planks to the hull I am using 16mm long mild steel dressmakers pins, these are primarily for holding the planks in place while the glue sets, but I will be leaving them in place driven slightly below the plank surface.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture078.jpg)

Realistically Master Hand will spend more time on her cradle than on the water so using steel pins which are readily available at my local dressmakers shop won't be a problem.

Its a personal choice and one I've used in the past on my models with success :-))

I plan to coat the exterior and interior of the hull in either polyester resin or SP systems Spacoat 320 epoxy resin as my budget allows at that time and depending on upcoming experiments.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture080.jpg)

You see I want the plank seams to show on the finished model which is why I'm going to great lengths to plank to scale. The original ship was built to a high standard - for a working boat, but she would not have had a glass smooth hull and I want to try and emulate this in the model.

The only problem with SP 320 epoxy resin is that it will make the whole job look lovely, highlighting the grain in the oak planking so well that I won't want to cover it up with paint! O0 {-)

I plan to give photo by photo details of the whole planking process as I go, with all hiccups, challenges and successes so that folks can see that they too could plank a hull to a good standard given time and effort :-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 17, 2011, 02:22:42 PM
 >>:-( Erratum! <*<

Line 4, post 161

Quote
In 9th Feb post, photo 5 does indeed show that a little could be shaved off frame 8 at plank batten 3 but if I remember correctly I did remedy that while comparing port and starboard.

should read

In 9th Feb post, photo 5 does indeed show that a little could be shaved off frame 10 at plank batten 3 but if I remember correctly I did remedy that while comparing port and starboard.

 :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" Sailing Trawler Master Hand - the best laid plans of mice and men!
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 18, 2011, 06:31:45 PM
We I've come to the point where I lay the first planks and being a part time perfectionist I've come across a tiny hiccup :o

My house is heated by a warm air central heating system which makes the atmosphere very dry and it plays havoc with wood! <:(

And Ive discovered a tiny bow in the length of Master Hand's keel near the bow >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Now were not talking banana style bent . . . . it's like in the order of 0.65mm

Imagine a 900mm spirit level forming a chord of a circle and the keel forms the arch subtended by the chord and the 0.65mm being the maximum tangent . . . .

That's what we're looking at here so its tiny but its driving me nuts. >>:-(

Nothing else has moved, I have cotton string lines stretched down both sides of the building board and its surface is level in both planes and the keel is still flat on its sole.

It's just bent slightly port to starboard near the bow.

So I've come up with a plan.

The grand scheme is to clamp my trusty spirit level to the side of the keel as I lay the first few planks either side forming a stiff 'T' in section.

By the 2nd or 3rd plank laid per side, this should be enough to hold things permanently straight and I can take away the level. :-))

Using my bench grinder I've modified 4 cheapy 3" G clamps to allow me to clamp to the keel side cut leave clearance to lay the planks

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture083.jpg)

Which I'm using to clamp the spirit level to the side of the keel. O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture082a.jpg)

I can fit the guard board to rabbet in the side of the the keel without interference %)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture081.jpg)

Just one more hiccup *sigh!*  {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: nemesis on February 18, 2011, 08:06:00 PM
Hello, Read your comments on your problem with steering, could you not use an endless loop system, could end up being more simple.
                                                           Nemesis
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 18, 2011, 10:08:23 PM
Hello Nemesis,

Yes I has considered the continuous loop method but I have the materials to hand for the gear system and I like something that a bit more robust O0

This ship is going to be very heavy and a bit of a beast and I want rudder controls that are man enough for the job :D but I appreciate your suggestion :-))
Title: Re: Sailing Trawler Master Hand planking experiment 1
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 18, 2011, 10:42:23 PM
Here is an attempt at laying a guard board, no glue - just nails to see how I got on.

I'm trying to highlight any obstacles cos it might get messy when using glue as well :o O0

I'm drilling through the plank and into the frames using a longer pin as a drill bit  :-))

Issues I've spotted so far are that I need a decent punch and my hammering technique needs a little work as I'm rusty in that department! {-) O0

If you don't hit these pins I'm using axially spot on they bend and once that happens they have to be pulled and binned! >>:-(

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture084.jpg)

The plank I'm using was rejected as suitable for the hull but it makes a useful test piece.

I need a punch that has a fine tip but is concave to hold the pin head preventing it slipping, also I need to be able to drive the pin below the surface of the plank without bruising the surrounding area if possible. Maybe I need two separate punches for each task? Hmmmm . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture085.jpg)

The plank went on cold (no steaming as I haven't built my steam plant as yet %)) with little problem though as you can see it has split slightly at the hood ends. This will be avoided with a steamed plank as it was caused by the stress of twisting it into place.

But all in all I'm satisfied. The pins are easily man enough to hold the plank in place and I've learned a few things in the process.

Now I'll go away and degest the experience and thunk up ways of solving the issues I've come across :-) :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 20, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
Okay I've dug out the planks I cut last year for Master Hand . . .

But there's a slight snag >>:-( >>:-(

Most of the hull planks at 1/16th scale are 3.9mm thick (the full size planks were 2 1/2" thick) with the exception of the bilge strakes and sheer strakes which are 3" thick (4.8mm on the model)

I cut the planks roughly at 5.5mm thick and 6.5mm thick respectively on my circular saw when converting the old oak table, now I have to plane them to correct thickness . . . .

 :o But how to do it?  :o

I have a power planer which I dabbled with last year (see post 28 here) but it is very noisy and extremely dusty even when attached to my trusty Dyson.

No . . . .

I wanted a more genteel way with no noise and no fuss, :-)) O0 I have a number of hand planes made by Record and Stanley but my favourite for most general jobs is a Stanley with an 8" long sole.  On studying this plane it can be seen that the blade protrudes through the sole but there is a shoulder either side caused by the sides of the plane body hmmmmmm . . . . can I take advantage of this?

The answer is yes! :-))

I came up with an absolute doosey! O0 :-))

I've had some perspex strips cut 25mm x 5mm thick for years left over from when I used to work for an industrial sign manufacturing company, the strips were originally to make up laminated sail battens for my class 5 landyacht but they serve another purpose here :}

Allow me to introduce the A.C.M.E. plank planing track (patent pending)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture088.jpg)

The plane sole rides on the first shoulders which are 4.2mm thick and are set exactly the width of the plane blade apart  . . . . using the blade actually  O0. . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture087.jpg)

To ensure the plane follows the track and the blade travels down the plank trough a 2nd set of shoulders were set using the plane body with the blade set very deep.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture086.jpg)

And a small perspex block set at the width of the plane blade was temporarily superglued at the back end of the plane.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture089.jpg)

The plane body is guided by the 2nd tier of shoulders and in cross section the plank track gives a sort of amphitheatre effect {-) O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture090.jpg)

The 4.2mm thickness of the first shoulders allows the plane blade to shave off the surface of a plank blank but only to a set depth and a maximum of 4.2mm.

When there are no more shavings comming off you've got down to the desired thickness :-)) ;)

Over thick planks blanks are placed in the bottom trough and clamped with the device's  open end to the workbench . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture091.jpg)  

I can cut plank thicknesses with faces exactly parrelell and the same thickness the entire length of the plank and I can cut plank thicknesses from 4.2mm to about 1.5mm thick if required (4.0mm the desired thickness shown by the vernier calipers)

To plane thicker planks i.e. the 4.8mm sheer strakes and bilge starkes I will simply super glue two parallel strips of 1mm birch ply to the sides of the sole of my plane either side of the blade and adjust the blade to suit O0 :-)

I've gone through 1 and a half bottles of runny superglue to make the track but it's worth it   . . . . .

 :-)) cos the thing works like a charm  :-))

And the good thing about perspex is  . . . that when it's glued with super glue it stays glued :D

Next job . . . . .

Build me a plank steamer doobly :-))  ;)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on February 20, 2011, 07:20:28 PM
Necessity being the mother of invention Greg....you have devised an excellent solution.... :-)) ....Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 20, 2011, 11:51:58 PM
 :-)) A copy of  :-))

Sailing Trawlers: Story of Deep-Sea Fishisng

by E.J. March published by David & Charles, 1981, 3rd impression


has been listed on Ebay

just in case anyone is entertaining following in my footsteps  ;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380318389806&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

It's a rare book these days  O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 21, 2011, 04:12:42 PM
So you been with me so far and you've done each step right?

All that work and seemingly getting nowhere making the keel and cutting the rabbet for the guard board O0. and the bevelling all those frames  :o

Well now all that work will start to pay dividends  O0

Now its time to lay those first two planks :-))

Start by making a template from cardboard of the hood end at the bow . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture092.jpg)

Make it as accurate as you can, I cut the rabbet to accept a square edged plank (review posts 27 onwards) to make things a bit simpler when laying the guard boards and subsequent planks :}

In full size practice the rabbet would have been cut shallower and they'd have shaped the mating face on the plank to fit. This was to avoid cutting too deeply into the keel's side face thus weakening it.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture093.jpg)

But since we're not relying solely on tree nails and bits of string caulking to hold on the plank and keep the water out, but we're bonding the guard board as well as pinning it in place . . . .

we can get away with our method ;)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture095.jpg)

My planking stock width is dictated by the thickness of the table top from which they were cut (21mm) so I've made my template the same width to ensure I have no alignment problems, I've also indicated where frame No.1 is on its face. We now transfer all this info to our chosen plank stock.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture096.jpg)

Mark the plank with a sharp pencil and transfer frame No.1 position also and cut away the waste.

Remember! We sand away until the pencil line just disappears to match the template, sounds obvious I know but the pencil lead is up against the template edge and the pencil line has thickness no matter how sharp! %)

Offer the plank up to the keel and try for fit, and using our nasty sharp sanding sticks (see post 138) whittle away at the shape of the hood end until you get a perfact fit.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture097.jpg)

Keep whittling, trying for fit, whittling, trying for fit, etc. until you're happy. Don't go hacking away and end up starting again further down the plank . . . .  we don't want to get into the Laurel & Hardy sawing the leg off a wobbly table syndrome :o {-)

All the planking stock I have is not long enough to make even the shortest plank on the hull in one piece  >>:-( so I'm making the guard board joint a butt one at frame frame 12.

You will have noticed I've pinned the plank in place and I've pre drilled for all the pins I will be using when fitting the plank permanently, this is a time saving exercise because at that time the plank will be slippy with glue  :o and we want to make our lives at this sticky time as simple as possible. So make tick marks on the keel and plank at various points to help alignment so you find these holes in the keel and pins will just fall into place :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture100.jpg)

I've clamped my spirit level to the other side of the keel to help take the shock from hammering in all these pins so the whole frame takes the load and not just the keel at the bow :-))

It goes without saying that you do the same procedures to the other side of the keel okay? O0

Next time . . . . .

Making the tail end of the guard board . . . .  :-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on February 21, 2011, 07:06:36 PM
Right, now for the tail end of the guard board . . .

As before, make a cardboard template as accurate as you can and transfer this to the plank blank and cut out making the butt join slightly longer . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture102.jpg)

Sand carefully and then pin and clamp as necessary the hood end at the stern post.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture103.jpg)

Twist the plank so that it's bottom edge fits into the rabbet and offer up the butt end to its mating face on the forward part of the plank . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture104.jpg)

Carefully sand way at the butt and try fit - sand, try fit - sand, try fit - sand, etc. etc. . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture105.jpg)

I found clamping a small scrap of wood between the keel and plank helped hold it steady while I worked . . . .

Remembering all the time the 'wobbly table leg syndrome' as a constant reminder to go careful %)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture106.jpg)

A good tip when you're getting close is to under cut the face slightly and you will find you can see the back face of the plank beginning to fit the seam . . .

At this stage square up the front face of the butt and the plank will slip neatly into place  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture116.jpg)

Here is a butt ugly (scuse pun) closeup of the finished seam . . . .  those pin heads look a mile wide don't they?

In reality they are only 1.65mm in diameter!  :o

While the plank is in place we might as well set out it's top edge . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture109.jpg)

In an earlier post we set out the widths of the guard boards and a number of others for the plank runs, and from this we know the guard board is 15mm wide, I set this out on the plank in situ using my trusty vernier calipers (this tool gets abused but I use it for jobs like this all the time).

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture110.jpg)

A straight edged batten is strung around the little dents made by the calipers and the top edge of the plank marked in pencil . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture111.jpg)

The batten is removed and the new plank edge thus set out is checked for any wobbles . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture114.jpg)

And any found are corrected  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture115.jpg)

All that is required now is to take off both parts of the plank and place them in our A.C.M.E. plank clamp and plane down to the new plank edge.

The resultant plank can of course be used as a pattern for it's oppo on the other side of the keel O0

Its important to get a nice sweep to this new edge because the 2nd plank takes it's bottom edge from this  . . . . . so nice sweet sweeps please  O0 . . . . no dog legs or kinks

 <*< If you don't mind!  <*<

 {-)

The rest of the planks are made in a similar fashion with a few variations . . . . .

 :o  Only another 41 to go!  :o

 %) {-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 02, 2011, 12:06:59 AM
Just thought I'd give you an update . . . . .  :-))

I'm running planking stock through the A.C.M.E. plank track . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture119.jpg)

Just doing the grid . . . .

And I've a lot to go through.

Starting off taking the thick stuff off . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture122.jpg)

and working down the the thin stuff . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture118.jpg)

And I mean really thin!  :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture117.jpg)

My planks are comming out between 4.1mm and 4.3mm thick which is good because it gives me room to scrape the finished hull smooth down to the desired 4mm :-))

And I'm filling my kitchen sink with shavings ejected off the end of me plank track, I'm saving those for later %)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture120.jpg)

Some planks are straight . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture123.jpg)

Well reasonably!  {-)

And . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture124.jpg)

While others are obligingly curved . . . . . great for those curvy planks we discussed in an earlier post!

Funny really because all planks came from the same flat oak table top  :o O0

I'll be sorting the curved ones special for those awkward curvy bilge planks  O0

And no . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture121.jpg)

Simba still hasn't moved!  :o  . . .  . . . but he really is alive . . .honest! :o

 {-) {-)

And just to prove it . . . here he is accompanied by his feline friends . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture125.jpg)

The reason for his expression is that I couldn't get him to sit still and pose would you believe! >:-o

So I had to bribe him with a cube of Kite-Kat cat food held in my left hand which is what he's ogling at!  {-)

And is also the reason for him being mobbed by cats!  O0 {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on March 02, 2011, 03:46:14 PM
Couple of questions, if I may?

1/ How long does an individual plank take to shape from blank stock and fit?
2/ Do you cut the other side's planks at the same time as the working side's?
3/ Does the other side's plank need any fettling (i.e. are you sure the hull's 100% symmetrical)?
4/ Real boats made this way would be caulked for watertightness. Would it be possible (or desirable!) to achieve this at this scale?

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 02, 2011, 07:26:14 PM
Hi Andy,

Time taken from starting with a blank plank in the rough to the finished plank on the hull is difficult to gauge at the moment as I've only cut and dry fitted the guard boards which I've yet to permanently fit in place but it took about 2 hours of messing about getting the first one to fit and then using it as a pattern for its opposite took about 20 minutes.

But once I get a routine going I'm looking at about 4 hours per pair of planks from rough plank to glued and pinned to the hull. :-)) but its a guesstimate at the mo  O0

Planing a plank in the plank track, thats less of a guess, the shoulder the plane run on are set at 4.3mm off the base (not 4.2mm in post #167 [typo]). I'm aiming at a finished planed plank thickness of about 4.2mm to give me room to scrape and sand the finished hull to 4mm plank thickness.

The procedure is to set the plane fine and take enough off one side to remove tool marks left by the circular saw. This will be the inside of the plank (but this may change), the plank is flipped over and again planed to get rid of tool marks and then I'll inspect both faces and choose which will be the outside face of finished plank.

I'm looking for tearout and other defects which won't matter too much on the inside of the hull as I plan to seal it with fibre glass resin or maybe epoxy at a later date. A complete plank is formed from 1 1/2 plank blanks (three total for a pair of planks). I then plane the best side down to 4.2mm.

One plank blank takes about 5 minutes to plane up to 4.2mm which then goes on the pile to be sorted. Planks near the keel and the sheer are fairly straight while those on the bilge are curved and lazy 'S' shapes. In other words enough material to form one pair of planks takes 15 minutes or so.

Incidentally doing more research, planks were cuts straight it seems and then edge set to get them to fit the frames after steaming them to death in a steam box on the original ship so I'm going to try the same with my hull  :-))

I've taken some time to try and get both sides of the hull and frames symmetrical so that I can cut one plank and fit it to one side and in theory this can be flipped and it will fit the same spot on the other side of the hull. I'll then use this as a pattern to cut the 2nd of the pair. Obviously this is the real world and there are small differences but if they are way out I go back and investigate why and correct the issue.

I cut the 2nd plank a tad wide of the marks to allow for fettling while fitting.

This is why in the beginning I went to great lengths to set out the building board and cut each frame from one half pattern to ensure symmetry as much as possible.

My aim when fitting planks is to fit their seams closely, I do this by using something like blackboard chalk the coat the edge of the last laid plank, then by offering up it's new neighbour, chalk will be transferred highlighting high spots.

(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af305/brookes_album/Hannah%20Mae/IMG16.jpg)

The effect I'm aiming at while planking will look like this.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/BCPC/IMG_7255_12.jpg)


And this :-)) It will take an hour or two to get one plank to fit this close but it looks beautiful when done and worth the effort in my book  :-))

The inside seam of adjoining planks will be a close fit and the outside will show the caulking groove. I'm currently pondering on the best way to tackle creating this bevel on the plank edge but I've spotted these micro hand planes on e-bay which might just do the job

(http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/150/62/silverline-244990-mini-block-plane-15062747.jpeg)

It is 3" long and 3/4" wide  :o

The bevel will extend to half the plank thickness and its open face is determined by 1/16" of gap for every 1" of plank thickness so on the real ship this would have been 2 1/2 x 1/16 = 5/32" converting to 1/16th scale is and into metric money is 0.25mm which happens to be the width of a junior hacksaw blade.

What I intend to do is roughly cut the bevel on the new plank edge and when it is fitted in place next to it's fixed neighbour run a device (of shape yet to be determined) made from said junior hacksaw blade along the seam to even it up along the length of the planks.

That 0.25mm plank seam will (hopefully) fill up nicely with the paint system I intend to use on the outside of the hull leaving an impression of nice even caulked seams.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture080.jpg)

As I'm using oak for planks which is classed a durable I intend to give the outside of the hull a couple of coats of thinned varnish plus a coat or two of eggshell finish black paint to represent the tar coating used on the original ship plus the underwater areas will be painted with a reddy orange paint to represent the red lead antifouling used on the original ship.

Again this will depend on how much the plank seams are filled up with the paint finish - I want the plank seams showing so the eventual finish will be governed by this. I'm not looking for a glass smooth finish  <*<

I don't think it wise (for my sanity's sake) to try and caulk seams this small but I dare say it is feasible. You have to draw the line somewhere between a miniature built ship that is going to spend its life in a glass case, and a well presented scale model you intend to throw on the water and sail from the pond side.   :-))

I'm aiming for the latter ok2
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on March 02, 2011, 07:55:21 PM
(http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/150/62/silverline-244990-mini-block-plane-15062747.jpeg)

It is 3" long and 3/4" wide  :o

It is  :-)) I have the exact same one, bought frae a wee tool shop near the Barras.  :-)

Bought, I might add, partly for modelling work, but mainly because it looked so cute. I was going to use it for the bow and stern block carving on Racundra - but opted for the oh-so-much quicker angle grinder/sander.  %%

Thanks for the info re: times and caulking. Sorry to interrupt your build while you wrote your reply.

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 02, 2011, 08:45:34 PM
Hi Andy,

I've used your angle grinder approach in the past  :-))

Its a case of do whats necessary to get the desired result :D

And I'm happy to answer questions about my methods, that's why I'm here  :-) so it's no problem.

Although I've built quite a few models in the past, I approach each new build by deciding how I want to present the finished ship and I build to please my own hot buttons.

If my model hits other folks' hot buttons too thats great!

Then I work out methods as I go along so the effects I want to create are realised and I solve each conundrum that presents itself.

That's the fun of scratch building for me but I also base my methods on research into how the big boys building big boats and ships go about it, and adapt things to my requirements.  :-))

The detailed build here is trying to give an inside view of how I tackle all of this  ok2

The little block plane has a huge cute factor don't it?  {-) {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: kiwi on March 03, 2011, 06:45:49 AM
Hi Greg,

[That's the fun of scratch building for me but I also base my methods on research into how the big boys building big boats and ships go about it, and adapt things to my requirements.  Thumbs up
[/font]

That's what I try and do as well when I'm researching the boats I have been drawing.
Maybe that's why your build holds so much fascination for me. You explain simply and briefly, and this coupled with your excellent photos say's it all.
Keep up the excellent work.

cheers
kiwi
ps that wee plane sure is cute
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 03, 2011, 05:11:50 PM
Thanks Kiwi  :-))

Yours and other folks' comments are greatly appreciated.

The starboard guard board plank is completed and ready for gluing to the keel.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture131.jpg)

As with the port side I've pinned it in place (no glue at this stage) to make sure a correct fit and I'm pleased to say that apart from a tiny bit of fettling at the bow it's an exact copy of its sister  :-)) I cut the rabbet a tad shallower on this side and I've modified the plank rather than mess about with the rabbet at this stage of the build.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture130.jpg)

I cut the starboard plank whilst it was clamped side by side with the already complete port side in my A.C.M.E. plank clamp and planed the blank down until its edges matched those of the port side ensuring an exact pair. I will do this step with all plank pairs.  O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture129.jpg)

Here is the join between the forward and aft planks

Which has the caulking seam cut in the aft end but is filled with sawdust at the mo and I'm too lazy to clear it for the photo shoot! {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture126.jpg)

Here is the tail end of the plank . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture127.jpg)

And a close-up-and-dirty shot of the nib end of the plank. The little square pad is made from scrap 1mm birch ply with a pin hole drilled at its centre and is useful for holding down delicate plank ends such as here while the glue dries. I start by cutting 5mm strips in the plywood and drilling the strips at 5mm intervals.

When I need a pad I snip it off the end of one of the strips - saves chasing round looking for tiny squares all the time as my kitchen floor has grey mottled tiles and when something is dropped - its a nightmare trying to find it! >>:-(

As before, while the plank is pinned in place, I've pre drilled for all fixing holes to save time during the messy job of gluing the plank in place  :-))

At that point the pad will be split away and the pin driven home. :-))

During a trip to the cheapy shop I bought myself some cheapo pincers . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture132.jpg)

I set to with my bench grinder and ground down the tops of the jaws . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture134.jpg)

So that the jaw faces come to a sharp edge . . . that huge black line on the keel is actually a fine pencil line!  :o the wonders of modern cameras eh?  {-) O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture133.jpg)

With these modified pincers I can get behind the heads of pins nailed flush to a plank surface to remove them without damaging the plank O0 :-))

Next I will cut and fit the 2nd plank pairs, these are the same width as the guard boards (15mm) and this width is carried right to the bow.

At the stern the plank widens out to 31mm as it sweeps up the stern post, this and the next 5 planks are cut this way to eat up the space at the stern post.

See post 144, the plank battens give you an idea of what we're looking at here. :-)

I will be using the same procedure for making all planks as described for making the guard boards with minor variations which I will of course document ;)

A little note here . . . . I am finding fitting these planks to the hull very easy . . . the guard boards have taken up the sharp twists at the bow and stern with no sign of splitting or cracking and I haven't needed to steam them either.

The planks are straight with no edge set . . . it remains to be seen wether this will be the case around the bilge area but we'll see . . . all part of the fun! {-)

I must say I love working with this oak, it's hard and takes a sharp edge without crumbling, I would recommend it for planking.

So if you come across an unloved oak top table  - grab it! O0 and convert it to planking.

But no making Grandma's treasured and polished table in the living room  disappear :police: - not allowed  <*<

 {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 04, 2011, 07:04:22 PM
Greggy. I did try to send you a news letter by EMAIL ? I don't think you got it. However I have just been lucky. I was invited to visit the yard where the Brixham trawler Pilgrim is being rebuilt. Well it is more like a replica as not one piece of timber has not been replaced. Naturally I took my camera. Here is the construction at the horn timbers, which cased you so much head scratching. At the bottom the horns fix to the fashon frames long knees at the quarters cerry a cross beams under which the horns are fixed. I have more photos if you want them. Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 04, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
Hammer!

 >>:-( I hate you  - I hate you - I hate you!  >>:-(

 {-) {-) {-)

I'm not insanely jealous of course!

 ;)

Pilgrim is now a very old lady and she's made of wood which don't last forever, I guess it's a case of Grandads Axe isn't it?

During her fishing days the owner would not think twice about replacing rotten timber so its OK as far as I'm concerned.

Whats important is that she still exists for future generations to enjoy where as so many are forever the property of Davey Jones' locker or recycled into some pubs seating furniture or something!

I'd be very pleased if you were to post as many photos as you are able here so that others following the build may see and enjoy them  :-)) or you can email me them and I'll add them through my Photobucket page.  O0

I was lucky enough to be invited aboard the William McCann a few years ago when she sailed into Bridlington Harbour, I had a real good poke around taking lots of photos but the 35mm film was lost during processing  >>:-( >:-o The Excelsior Trust now own her and she has been renamed The Lord Nelson H1394 which was the name given to her when she was launched back in 1884 and is one of the oldest still in existence. She was one of the largest north sea boats and operated out of Hull.

http://www.excelsiortrust.co.uk/modules/news/article.php?storyid=120

She is currently awaiting restoration funds and is laid up at their headquarters.


(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture137.jpg)

Well we've hit a milestone  :} That guard boards are finally in place for good, my system of pinning them on first and pre drilling for nail holes works, but I have to ensure the plank goes in exactly the same spot when they are re positioned and glued in place.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture139.jpg)

I do this by nailing the butt joint end on its frame first as the nail holes are easy to find  :-)) and I simply work along the plank to its other end. I make pencil marks (top right in the photo above) on the plank and immediately adjacent on the keel as proof I'm on the right track.

I'll do the same on adjacent planks as I go for the same reason :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture138.jpg)

This system is a tad long winded but the massive bonus is that I can start work on the next pair of planks immediately and don't have to wait till the last laid planks are dry :-))

Which when I get my routine nailed down pat will hopefully speed up the planking process :-))

The keel and guardboard combo are now immensely strong and stiff!

I'm well please - to coin one of my teenage daughters phrases  :}
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 04, 2011, 11:14:51 PM
Well plank 2 is provisionally pinned and clamped to the port side of the keel . . . . .

Well tha back half anyway, the butt joint with the yet to be made forward part is at frame No. 6 . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture143.jpg)

 <*<  but she didn't arf put up a bloomin fight! <*<

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture144.jpg)

 {-)  :o {-) O0

As you can see by all the little clamps that are holding her to the guard board plank!  :o and the larger ones are managing the  <*<  edge set <*<

Time to make that steam box me thinks :-))

What I've done is edge set a straight plank 2 against the guard board, the top edge is taken from plank width on the mating plank position on the other side of the keel and a batten sprung around the points.

I then cut the top edge roughly outside of the marks on my bandsaw, I'll clean this edge up later.

The original plan was to cut planks to their true shape using cardboard patterns but this would be a tremendous waste of material . . . .

And I have limited stock, and further research of ship building practices shows that the original ship would have been planked using straight cut planks.

So that grand plan now is to steam plank blanks and clamp them in place until they cool and then shape the top edge using the plank widths taken from the opposite side of the keel at the frames.

This exercise proves that this particular hull shape will allow this as the 2nd plank is bent on cold, but steaming them will take all the pressures out of the timber and I won't get quite such a fight out of her! {-) :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture145.jpg)

Just look at all that iron holding down the tail end?? :o

 :-)

But I'm as happy as a pig in doobly what's it! {-) O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on March 04, 2011, 11:53:07 PM
OK.....& Greg says ..... "this exercise proves that this particular hull shape will allow this as the 2nd plank is bent on cold, but steaming them will take all the pressures out of the timber"  

 ....this interesting......  :} ...but as silly as it sounds....both wood & steel end up with inbuilt stresses.....the wood from natural growth & steel from its fabrication >>:-(

When we steam timber we are elevating the natural moisture level in the timber....making it more fluid & allowing it to deform without fracture O0

Some may ask.....timber more fluid???? ........is this person NUTZ? or  %%...well please remember glass is technically a fluid  :P  ........

Carry on Greg  :-))...many are watching....Derek  {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 05, 2011, 12:16:46 AM
Thanks Derek  :-)

With my steam box built I hope to do a short video to prove how pliable - if a little hot oak planks become.

{Note to self} put up signs everywhere to remind oneself not to swear when burning pinkies during filming! {-)

The building board and my substantial frame supports can easily take the strain imposed by the cold bent planks but why make life hard? :o

I'm all for making life as straight forward as possible  :-)

And I read somewhere that given enough time the glass in my house windows would flow out of the frames and form a puddle on the floor.

I keep checkin my windows every morning but I guess I need a H G Wells type time machine to see the effect {:-{

(http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/article/107/1079949/time-machines-through-er-time-20100325065957774.jpg)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 05, 2011, 12:57:42 AM
I was just about to slope off to bed with me hot chocolate and I decided  . . . .

Just for a giggle like . . .  %)

Take off all the clamps from plank No.2 just to see what would happen . . . .

In all honesty I expected the plank to go 'pioyyynngg!' flinging former pin nails to the four winds! :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture146.jpg)

Here's a flash shot for dramatic effect!

Get ready!  . . . . . .    'PIOYYNNGG!'   :o

But No!  :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture147.jpg)

The plank stayed there ! Meek as a lamb!

It is held in place by 16mm long by 0.65mm diameter pins, 3 in each frame and 17 around the periphery of the plank at the deadwoods.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture148.jpg)

The dark line between the two planks is actually the stained surface of the former table top the planks have been cut from :-))

That plank has been held in place about 4 hours - it's 12:45 AM Saturday morning here, room temperature a dry aired 70 degrees (we have warm air central heating which makes the place very dry and I don't do cold! {-))

It's totally flummoxed me! Remember the plank has not been steamed and I had to fight it intially to lay on the frames.

I've steamed planks before and they have kept their new shape all be it with a small amount of spring back  hmmm (scratches noggin)

Care to explain that one Derek?

But now the clamps are off you can start to get a glimpse of why I fell in love with the lines of this ship  ;)



Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on March 05, 2011, 01:31:33 AM
Greg says......"I've steamed planks before and they have kept their new shape all be it with a small amount of spring back  hmmm (scratches noggin).....Care to explain that one Derek?"

 :embarrassed: ...I can only refer to the following Wikipeoiedia reference thingie {-) {-) {-)...

Woodworking. When wood is used as a construction material, whether as a structural support in a building or in woodworking objects, it will absorb or desorb moisture until it is in equilibrium with its surroundings. Equilibration (usually drying) causes unequal shrinkage in the wood, and can cause damage to the wood if equilibration occurs too rapidly. The equilibration must be controlled to prevent damage to the wood.

It also appears that oak maintains approx 12% moisture in a semi perfect environment  <:( .....Derek

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 05, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
Green Greggy!!! ;D I'm only sorry I didn't get to Pilgrim sooner. <:( Here is the boat yard.
(http://s2.postimage.org/hlvwgrl0/PICT0014.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hlvwgrl0/)
The planks garboard & next 2 oak then pine up to the turn of the bilge 1/2"thicker oak the 6 pine & the top three oak.  The large pellets are covering bolts holding the deck beam shelf. Small pellets cover spikes.
(http://s2.postimage.org/ho3a9fac/PICT0015.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ho3a9fac/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/ho6lc49w/PICT0016.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ho6lc49w/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/ho9wet9g/PICT0017.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ho9wet9g/)
The beams on the shelf . 9" of camber.
(http://s2.postimage.org/hoveebok/PICT0018.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hoveebok/)
I will post more later .  :} Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 05, 2011, 07:50:41 PM
Thanks Hammer  :-))

Much appreciated   O0

I'm on with steaming experiments, the forward end of the 2nd plank goes from 22 degrees from the horizontal at frame 6 to vertical at the stem in the space of 14" which is quite a twist! :o

I've been experimenting with jamming the switch closed on my upright kettle full of water and draping a cloth over the top so as steam only pours from the spout.

When the kettle is boiling I've been holding the short plank over the spout and bathing it in super hot steam until it's pliable and then forcing it in place over the frames while it cools a little and takes a set . . . .

Then back to the kettle for more steaming . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture149.jpg)

Back to the hull again and more bending.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture150.jpg)

And I keep doing this until I'm am happy  O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture154.jpg)

Over a few trips back and forward what happens is the plank takes more of a twist and set because the plank gets very hot while steamed, but dries and cools very quickly on the frames so you end up with a snaky plank!

It has taken edge set as well as curve as you can clearly see . . . there is a little spring back but the plank is far more amenable when the time comes to fix it permanently in place  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture153.jpg)

This is close-up-and-dirty shot and is only a practice of the forward part of plank #2 but you will notice I've placed the nails much further inboard at the hood ends as the nails on the guard board tended to split when I counter sank them.

Not to worry I have a neat little trick with a drop of superglue . . . it makes an excellent filler paste when mixed with fine oak sawdust which fills the tiniest crack and sands very well but you have to be quick!  :o

I now have in my possession Mums wallpaper steamer which I'm going to adapt using a short length of PVC pipe to make a plank steamer doobly  O0

So on with plank No.2 for real  :-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture155.jpg)

Here are two countersunk plank nails on the port guard board at frame 10 that have had the superglue/oak sawdust filler treatment real close, I think they look very neat  :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 06, 2011, 10:43:23 AM
Photos of the rudder & stern. The rudder box is square unlike the Master Hand, the stock round sheathed in copper. Just behined can be seen the knee which supports the horn timbers.
(http://s1.postimage.org/31e1bs9qc/PICT0022.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31e1bs9qc/)
Experimenting wiht the size of photos.  >>:-( Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 06, 2011, 10:46:51 AM
Still small I guess you will have to click to enlarge.
(http://s1.postimage.org/31g3qyvyc/PICT0023.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31g3qyvyc/)
Is this better %%
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 06, 2011, 10:58:09 AM
No!! The joint between the keel & rudder post, strengthened with a metal plate.
(http://s1.postimage.org/31hzk0478/PICT0026.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31hzk0478/)
The sweep of the stern. the small hole for the propshaft. Two engines to be fitted.
(http://s1.postimage.org/31ji4qkhw/PICT0025.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31ji4qkhw/)
The bitts
(http://s1.postimage.org/31luh59ok/PICT0027.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31luh59ok/)
The knights head post side for roller starboard for bowsprit.
(http://s1.postimage.org/31mmla62s/PICT0028.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31mmla62s/)
view over the deck. And thats all. Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 06, 2011, 11:01:47 AM
Missed the deck view. <:(
(http://s1.postimage.org/31oiebebo/PICT0021.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/31oiebebo/)
That is the last.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 06, 2011, 12:09:07 PM
Fantastic photos Hammer!

I'm sorely jealous of your opportunity >>:-(

But I'm very grateful for your interest and efforts :-))

Great photo's of the planking at the stern post . . . . .

Her owners must really treasure this ship is they are spending a huge pile of coin on her.

They have my greatest respect for saving such vessel that is part of our history and heritage.

All the others that still exist should be given the same treatment.

I'm as happy to share the photos as part of my build if you're happy to post them  O0

It's interesting to note how Pilgrim's planks sweep at the top of the stern post in going from vertical to horizontal.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Sternplanks.jpg)

E.J.M. is his Sailing Trawler book thus, i.e. following the line of the rest of the planks lower down

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture056.jpg)

Trying to lay this out on Master Hands hull makes for a difficult transition.

Pilgrims way makes it easier for me to plank that area.

The difficulty is that I would be straying away from the plans slightly and I wasn't there when E.J.M. surveyed the ship and sadly she is no longer in existence <:(

But on the whole I like the way the planks run in your photos so I'm going to make a small change to the rabbet at the top of my stern post  O0

Greg
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 06, 2011, 01:12:29 PM
New rabbet line at the top of the stern

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture156.jpg)

The planking will now make a nice sweep from vertical to horizontal instead of the sharp turn as in photo #2 in my last post . . . .

And it will be much easier to plank, plus it will look much prettier to my eye . . .

I like easier and prettier O0

It just means I'm going to need to build up the fashion frame and the heels of the horn timbers either side of the keel to support the planks in this area.

But I'm scratch building so I'm allowed!  {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 06, 2011, 03:38:24 PM
Only to happy to help Greg.  The lottery is helping the rebuild. Hammer
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 06, 2011, 08:56:02 PM
Here's another classic case of 'when the devil doo-doo's in yer custard!'   :o

The 2nd planks were cut from my oak table special . . . .

The table was only 21mm thick and my 2nd plank needed to be 31mm wide minimum with the 3rd, 4th and 5th planks needing to be 26mm, 24mm and 22mm wide . . .  >>:-(

So I cut out a piece 32mm x 21mm, turned it through 90 degrees and ran through my circular saw which left me with three planks 32 x 4.5mm . . .

I cut a 26 x 21mm, a 24 x 21mm and a 22 x 21mm board and did the same . . .

All well and dandy you might say . . .

Well yes but I got cross grain in all of these planks and no matter how sharp or how fine I set the plane blade . . . .

These planks turned up the grain and ripped it out!  >>:-(

So for these planks I've had to take a slightly different tack.

I've made myself a sort of wooden surform with glass paper stuck to the bottom . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture157.jpg)

I use it in the same way I use the plane . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture158.jpg)

And I get nice smooth 4.2mm planks no matter how knotty the wood!  :-))

And as a byproduct . . . . 

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture159.jpg)

Superglue and the sawdust make an excellent filler for my countersunk plank nail holes {-) :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 06, 2011, 10:43:20 PM
Yep steaming planks works!  :-))

In fact it works very well  O0

My steaming apparatus consists of an old wall paper stripper/steamer reservoir and sat on top of the exit nozzle is a 2" thin walled steel pipe.

The two are joined by a garden hose connector that just happened to be a snug fit in my steel pipe ( after a little gentle persuasion thanks to my big hammer!  {-) ) to which is connected a short length of garden hose that is jubilee clipped to said exit nozzle.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture160.jpg)

After 15 minutes of bathing in this little baby, a 32mm wide by 4.2mm thick plank  . . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture161.jpg)

Comes out doing a very good impression if a limp noodle . . . . . .  :o {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture162.jpg)

Whip it out of the pipe . . .  clamps at the ready . . .

And clap it in place . . . . .

You gotta be quick mind cos it cools rapidly . . .

Another 15 minutes later the plank sets rock hard again but this time . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture163.jpg)

In the shape I want it!  O0 :D

There is no way on gods green earth would that plank take that shape bending it on cold . . . . .

The only down side is that the super heated steam raises the grain on the plank but we have an allowance of a whole 0.2mm to smooth this out later :-))

On the whole I'm happy  O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: boater12 on March 06, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
I am no model boat builder, just thinking about it and probably will start a kit this summer, but I have to give it to you Greggy, I look forward to every post you make, your learning curves and how you get around problems. If it was me I would never have come up with such an idea to bend wood with relatively 'household / garge' items, things we have on shelves that we never use unless for the purpose intended.

I wish you all the very best with you build, and look forward to learning more from you learning yourself.

Just a small / slight / tiny question ...... when will we see the finished model  {-)

Keep up the great work and workmanship  :-))

Jim.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 06, 2011, 11:31:45 PM
Hello Jim,

Thank you but I have a confession to make . . . .   O0

I've been building scratch built models spread over a period of 30 odd years . . .  :o

But I'm trying to present Master Hand's build in such a way so as not to intimidate anyone embarking on a scratch build for the first time.

I'm trying to write in such a style that hopefully amuses my reader so that he thinks hell yes! If he can do it so can I!  {-)

I am under no illusion about the fact that I'm teaching the old dogs of model boat building how to suck eggs  {-)

They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks . . . .  %)

That said though, I do look at all and every item I see and think . . .

Hmmm . . .

How could that be useful in model boat building? {-)

I'm sure by now everyone has realised that I build on a paupers budget and my workshop is my kitchen . . . .

Or is it my kitchen is my workshop?  :o

So everything I see that others have junked I find a use for!

I would be lovely to have a purpose built workshop with benches all around the walls stacked with the latest modellers gagetry . . .

*sigh!*

One day maybe!  :-))

But again this shows what can be done with few simple tools hopefully  O0

Master Hand sailing? . . . .

When? . . . .

All good things come to he who waits! O0

I enjoy the build as much as enjoy sailing the finished product . . . .

I'm in no great rush  ;)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 07, 2011, 12:44:30 PM
The steam box/pipe works great but I've discovered a slight technicality . . . .

You see when I get an idea for a solution to a problem, I tend to jump for the first one that presents itself . . . .  O0

Like for instance the plastic hose connector that just happened to fit my steel pipe so that I could connect said pipe to my steam box  :}

Only . . . . .

While steaming the plank in my earlier post I noticed that the hose pipe at the base of the steel pipe had wilted somewhat and steam was escaping in a hot jet from a split :o

This is what's left of the hose connector after one session . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture171.jpg)

All the shiny newness has worn right off it!  <:( . . . . . .  >>:-(

Hmmmm let's see  . . . . 21 planks per side, erm 2 parts per plank less guard boards and 2 half parts of plank #2 completed already - hmmm (reaches for electronic abacus  {-) )

78 steaming sessions to go . . .

Erm nope! I don't think it's gonna make it!  {-) >>:-(

Plan B! :-))

I went back to what I'd pulled of the skip that day and I have the long hose and hand thingy that you clap to the wall to steam off wall paper!

Doh! {:-{

Why not use a small length of the pipe with it's proper connector to the steam box?  O0  The hose is reinforced rubber!  :-))

Right! Cut a wooden plug using me bandsaw 1" thick with the grain running lengthwise down the steel pipe.  

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture165.jpg)

Abuse my bench grinder to grind it round and put a chamfer on it . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture166.jpg)

And ram in end of steel pipe  <*<

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture167.jpg)

Offer rubber pipe connector up to plug and see what brain comes up with - make cuppa in meantime . . .  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture168.jpg)

OK got it! - Drill hole in plug

Lubricate pipe with washing up liquid and shove home . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture169.jpg)

Drill three holes equidistant around the circumference of steel pipe in way of plug . . . . . the wall thickness of rubber pipe is 5mm, plus steel wall & plug to hole thickness equals 16mm total. Insert 3 screws long enough to bite into wall of rubber pipe . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture170.jpg)

Job done! :-))

Now I have a steam box to last the distance on this job and any other builds in the future!  :-)) :-)

One more modification I'm going make is to lag the steel pipe . . . I noticed it got very - very hot in the 15 minutes steaming my last plank which means heat is being lost to the air plus there is a scald risk :o

That lost energy might as well be going onto steaming the plank which in turn will take less energy and time to cook and save me electricity into the bargain - I like it!  :-)) O0

I don't think normal pipe insulation will work because of the heat . . . I have some old bath towels in the loft . . . more money saved! I do like it when the old grey matter is firing on all cylinders!  {-)  %)

Simba's really is camera shy - really!  {-)

Honest! ok2
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 07, 2011, 09:41:30 PM
Stern half of both 2nd planks in glued in place  :-))

It's going slower than I'd hoped but now I have all my tools in place so I should speed up when I get into my groove  O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture179.jpg)

For the moment to get my plank bevel I'm simply running a felt tipped pen down the edge marking 1/3rd the depth of the plank and a smidgen down the outside face edge . . .

And sanding it away, its comming out surprisingly accurate.  :-))

I'll do it this way until I dream up a more reliable gadget to do the job.  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture175.jpg)

Port side . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture176.jpg)

starboard side . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture178.jpg)

Overhead  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture180-1.jpg)

Check out those caulking grooves :-))

Plank seams are tight and no light passes through  O0

Tomorrow I'll steam the forward end of the planks and fix in place.

I won't go into detail of every plank ad-nauseaum but I will post the odd photo as I progress up the hull  :-))

However I will post newsworthy events  ;)

I think I've said it already but I'm using Cascamite powder glue mixed 3 1/2 parts to one part water or as its called now Polymite.

When the glue goes off I take each of my mid frame clamps off and run a fine knife edge down the caulking seams to clear out splurged glue . . . .

It's a lot easier at this stage than when it sets rock hard! :o

The clamps go back on afterwards until the glue cures :-))

Under the jaws of the clamps I have short pieces of duff planking stock on front and back faces of the plank area being clamped with strips of shopping back between to prevent them sticking to the plank.

And so it goes  :-)

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 07, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
I forgot to mention  . . . . .

I hate glue splurged all over with dribbles every where . . .  :o

It's such a pain to clean up afterwards, because for the most part it's difficult to clear dribbles out from an upturned hull . .  >>:-(

Better to prevent the situation in the first place.  :-))

If you take the trouble to fit planks neatly with well fitting seams, you need just enough glue on both mating surfaces to make a good bond when using clamps and pins.  :-))

The gadget I refer to is a foam glue brush . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture181.jpg)

I've borrowed the idea from an ad in a Classic Boats magazine for foam paint brushes.

The head is made from flexible but dense polyurethane packaging foam used to protect large heavy machines etc during transit which is superglued to a wooden coffee stirrer.

I cut the heads to the shape required and they apply glue in just the right amount exactly where I need it - no mess :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 08, 2011, 04:00:41 PM
The forward end of plank #2 on the starboard side is fixed in place, the glue drying nicely.

The steam box pipe has now been lagged with three old bath sheets taped in place with insulation tape, the exhaust from the opening of the pipe is now super hot which means the lagging has proved very effective . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture185.jpg)

Planks reach soggy noodle state in 5 minutes once we're up to boil - twice as fast . . . . :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture182.jpg)

The forward end of plank #2 has tons of twist and edge set but being a soggy noodle this presented no problems  {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture183.jpg)

The clamp and wedge trick is borrowed from the big boat building boys miniaturised  :-))

The caulking groove has closed up on the guard board due to the close proximity of the nails to the edge of the plank    >>:-(

You live and you learn!  {-)

I'll sort stuff like that out during the comestic finishing stage when the planking is complete  O0

The forward end of plank #2 port side will be complete by the end of the evening.

Realistically I'm looking at laying 2 halves of a pair of planks per day at the moment start to finish.

More than half of the time is taken up by carefully fitting mating plank edges for a snug fit.

Offer up plank, note high spots, take to plank clamp, shave high spots off, re offer plank in place etc, etc . . . .

The plank is cut wide of the required plank width so that I can keep shaving this mating edge down until I'm happy and still have room to plot the upper edge of the plank later  :-))

But because the plank has been steamed and dried out in it's new shape you're not fighting a springy plank that resolutely wants to remain straight  O0 <*<

So it's a much more relaxed and temper free situation!  O0 {-)

I dare say that the finished hull will float with no leaks without a sealing coat of paint because of all this effort :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 08, 2011, 04:44:03 PM
I just love it when a plan comes together  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture187.jpg)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 08, 2011, 09:22:34 PM
The steaming process goes something along the lines of this . . . . .  %)

Cut the hood ends of the plank so they fit roughly but a snug fit . . .

Fire up the steam box . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture191.jpg)

Wait until we have a good head of steam . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture189.jpg)

For shorter planks I cut them over long and bore a hole to hang them on me wire hook thingy in the waste end of the plank . . . .

Longer planks are inserted so that the end needing most edge set and twist go head first down the tube . . .  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture194.jpg)

I've made a polyurethane foam bung with a flue made from a rubber shield found on jump start lead clips  . . . . . (yeah I hoard all sorts  O0 you never know when they come in useful!  :D )

This allows pressure to build up and retains the steam, if you look carefully you can see a dark plume just above the flue  - which you stay away from cos that's super heated air that is! :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture192.jpg)

 <*< Gloved hands are essential for removing the bung and extracting the steamed plank, that hot air will take your skin off! :o <*<

Excuse the blurring . . . this was an action shot because I needed that plank on the frames toot - sweet!  {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture193.jpg)

Clamp wobbly plank to frames and allow to cool.  :-))

Some of my Oak is denser than other bits . . . . this particular plank had three rides in the steam bath before I was happy with how it lay over the frames . . .

But eventually it came around to my way of thinking  %) {-)

Allow the plank an hour or so to cool and dry out . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture195.jpg)

At this point the plank will easily clamp in place with no fight at all and you can shape it to an exact fit at your leisure  :-)

You will find when the clamps are removed there will be some spring back but this is easily managed  O0

A Word to the wise . . . . . you don't want the plank too floppy out of the steamer in any case because what you will find with such a plank is that it takes up tight bends at the frames with flat spots in between  :o

And well . . . . . . we don't want a threepenny bit hull do we?  <*<

Steam it so it will give but puts up a little fight so that it springs around the frames in a fair curve  :-))

If you insist on super floppy planks the obvious way the beat the threepenny bit syndrome is to start your build with frames set closer together.

If I were to build a large scale hull like this again (watch this space) I would double up the frame spacing in any case  O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on March 09, 2011, 01:05:33 AM
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture182.jpg)

Classic photo.  :-))

Story of my builds, too...

Andy

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 09, 2011, 01:09:18 AM
It's not a model boat Andy . . . .

It's a cat perch! :o

 {-)

There!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture196.jpg)

Now its a symmetrical cat perch!  :-))

All subsequent planks will now begin to taper to the bow, these two pairs are parallel to gain some space up the stem so that all other planks will have a nice upsweep
(or downsweep as she's upside down!  {-) )

Planks 3 to 7 port & starboard widen from amidships to similarly gain space up the stern post and then the remainder of the planks will also taper to the stern  O0

The rest of the process is a wash - rinse - repeat affair until we can see no more frame edges  O0

I will be planking in the traditional method, i.e. from keel up to bilge and from sheer down to bilge with a shutter plank - probably the middle of the three thicker bilge strakes.

Now that plank will be fun to make  O0

Must crack on . . . .

Might be done planking by Christmas!  {-) O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Hammer on March 09, 2011, 09:21:52 AM
Greg, you say you cant teach an old dog new tricks >>:-( No one knows it all. We should never stop learning. I know what you mean enjoying the build better than the sailing. Geoff
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 09, 2011, 11:18:54 AM
You're right Geoff,

The thing about scratch building is that you know the real ship was built and existed (in most cases anyway) and with luck you have lines and rigging plans.  :-))

You do your research into method of construction etc but with scratch building there are no kit parts or instruction manuals . . . .  :((

It's all down to the ability of your own noodle  %) and the sum of your past experience with the ability to think on your feet rolled in.

Sometime it takes me weeks to come up with an answer to a particular problem or conundrum but it's great when you get that 'Ah -Ha!' moment that allows you to move forward.

In fact I confess I got stuck on Master Hands stern structure and nothing was 'comming through'  :((  so I stuck her in the loft and there she languished for 12 months!

Then suddenly in January I had this overwhelming desire to drag her down again because the light bulb had come on! {-)

If you stop learning though, you might as well give up building.

That said you also have to know when to put it down and walk away  O0  because sometimes it becomes obsessive  {-)

I read a lot of posts here and other sites and I borrow ideas all the time, we're very lucky to have access to the internet and the wealth of knowlege others are prepared to share in one place.  :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 09, 2011, 06:09:46 PM
It's all very well him saying wash - rinse - repeat!  >>:-(

But how does he get those nice flowing lines on the top edge of his tapering planks  >>:-( . . . . . . :((

That's what I had ringing in my ears as I sloped off to bed last night tired but happy . . . . .  

So here it is, it's quite straight forward but yet more fiddling.

Remember all those marks we made dividing up each frame and springing battens round to get the run of the planks?

Well now we have a fixed plank forming the bottom edge of the new plank. . . .

And to form the top edge of the new plank we spring our trusty straight grained batten around provisionally to the marks on the frames . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture201.jpg)

But we pin the batten on the marks so that one edge faces the fixed plank adjacent while on the marks . .  . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture200.jpg)

Which, to our eye creates an 'inviso plank'  :-))

And here's the trick . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture199.jpg)

That sweet line we left the night before on our newly fixed plank . . . .  {:-{

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture197.jpg)

Looks like a Blackpool Pleasure-beach roller coaster after a night on the pop!  :o {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture204.jpg)

You see . . . . the eye is channeled between the two sides and every bump and hollow jumps out like a dogs whatsits!   {:-{

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture203.jpg)

So after tearing our hair out and going away to calm down with a cuppa  {-)

We come back refreshed and look at the job from every angle and with a pencil highlight any spots that need attention as we go . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture202.jpg)

Same with the batten, if it shows a bump or a hollow in it's line . . .

Pull out the pin holding it to the nearest frame (or frames) and it will immediately spring to where it wants to be  :-))

Those plank lines we so carefully marked earlier on the frames are not set in stone, we let each plank dictate it's edge  . . . . just don't deviate a country mile from the marks that's all! %)

The edge of the fixed plank can be fettled using our sanding sick, but go careful - one rub at a time until your eye tells you the curve is even and fair  :-)) not forgetting to re-sand the caulking seam on the plank edge if one is present

( I'm sanding the caulking groove chamfer in the lower edge of each plank and leaving the top edge square so as to present a nice edge to the next plank) . . .

I'm steaming all my planks now so the botton edge I plane straight and true and because it is floppy out of the steam pipe it will edge set against the fixed plank on the hull nice and neat . . .

Because we have the batten on the opposite side of the hull demarking the top edge of said inviso plank we can transfer its edge datums at each frame using the much abused vernier gauge calipers to the freshly steamed and pinned plank blank on the opposite side of the keel.

What we're looking for is a sweetly tapering plank with sweeping edges towards the bow and (with planks 2 to 7 anyway) the opposite i.e. a gradually widening gap with sweeping edges.

That done we steam and edge set its opposite in place and work back from the newly cut and nailed in place partner  :-))

Got it?  ;)

Good . . .

Wash - rinse - repeat  :-))

Footnote . . .

Don't be afraid to sand out a bump caused by a high frame or a hollow by one too low.

Ultimately we're looking for the outside of the planking to show some sexy sweet lines (I need to get out more  :o I know-I know!  {-) )

On real wooden ships it was not uncommon for the planking bods to add a thin shim behind a plank to get it to lay fair with its neighbours and it's no shame here neither.

I'm a realist - just make sure what you do to one side of the keel, you do to the other  :-)) keep it symmetrical folks  O0

But the ultimate prize is when you take the finished model to the pond side . . . .

And the club anorak comes over and casts his official eye over the lines of the planks and is forced to walk away without comment!  {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 09, 2011, 11:08:32 PM
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture205.jpg)

Slowly slowly . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture206.jpg)

Catchee monkey! {-)

I've just had to upgrade my Photobucket account to professional cos I've exceeded my bandwith for a free account  :o

Can't understand why..

So now you going to get tons of photos  {-)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on March 10, 2011, 10:10:30 AM
Hello again Greggy,


What a great job you're doing on the planking. :-))
I also appreciate the time you take to document every step of the build.

For my static model I use pear wood and I can bend upto 3 mm thick boards easily by simply heating on the ironing board. The flat-iron has an enamel sole and steam holes so no burning of the wood occurs if you continuously move it up and down the wooden strakes.
But of course oak is quite a bit more sturdy and your steamer seems to do the job well.


Wish I had the time to continue my own model, but the job situation has kept me very busy in the last half year. {:-{

I've not come up with a definite solution for the horn timbers yet, but yours seems to fit well.

I continu to follow your subject with great interest, and will post whenever some usefull information comes into my hands.

PS when working with your steamer, don't forget the goggles, burned skin can heal, but eyes are irreplacable. 8)

Greetings, Nick
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on March 10, 2011, 10:22:42 AM
 >>:-( <*< ...not happy Greg with your choice of snacks....... {-)

Yesterday I see a tube of Pringiles "original" ...chips in your workshop..............

Just look at the impressed brown lump  I found on a Pringiles "original" chip here in OZ....courtesy of the Belgium manufacturers.........Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 10, 2011, 12:18:32 PM
Hello Nick,

Thank you for your continued interest, I get pleasure from the idea that others may learn from my experiences, I am trying to write in a style that is both amusing and informative  %)

I have been following your build also, I wondered why there was no progress. No doubt you will continue when you have the time  O0

Pear wood is a beautiful materail, I am looking for a fine grained wood to plank Master Hand's deck, sadly the Holly I have is far too knotty with gnarly grain but portions of it will go to make the deck structures so all is not lost.

But I do have some long lengths of Cherry Tree wood in log from in my garden shed that has been there two years drying out, I will pull it out soon and cut it into planks to see what I have to work with  O0 It is useful having a tree surgeon as a friend  O0

I am pleased to say the steaming apparatus works much better than expected and makes the planking process much easier and more relaxed but I am well aware of the dangers of super heated steam. You have it easy with pear wood  O0

I chose oak a) because most importantly I was given the table it came from, b) Master Hand was built of oak and it appeals to my sense rightness and c) oak is a strong and durable timber and the model will be around as an heirloom long after I am gone  O0

I have a modification to the stern timber structure that I presented here a few months ago.

At the moment it is a collection of scribbles on bits of paper and not presentable here, but it was the reason for me restarting Master Hands construction again after a years break.

I will re-draw it and run it through my scanner and present if for criticism  :-))

Hopefully this may help  :-))

Hello Derek,

That is the most ugliest Pringle I have ever seen! :o

Was it a case of finding half a worm in the apple you've just bitten in to?  >>:-(  {-)

I shall be scrutinizing my Pringles from now on!  :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 10, 2011, 06:21:25 PM
Is it me?  >>:-(

Or does this happen to other folks as well? %)

You know when you publicly mention that a task is going smoothly and easily . . . .  {:-{

And a subliminal message goes out to all the gremlins within a 50 mile radius and they bring every spanner of all shapes and size to throw in the works they can get their tiny hairy mitts on?  {-) O0

Well that has been today!

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture209.jpg)

This is the forward end of plank #3 and it was an absolute ""**~~?*&^%$ ig to fit!  >>:-( >>:-(

I chose a piece of oak primarily because its length was just longer than I needed so I avoided cutting into a longer piece to save waste . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture210.jpg)

I noticed it was quite heavy so consequently I figured it would be denser than normal and I also figured I might get a fight fitting the plank cut from it!

 . . . . . .

Well that has to be the understatement of the year! {-)

Even after 15 minutes of steaming it still put up a tough opposition  <*<

I don't mind admitting I swore a tad today and shed some blood on this plank into the bargain!  <:(

The clamps kept slipping, the plank sprang back pulling nails out with it! - Arrrrgghhh!  >>:-(

So back in the steamer it went . . . and I sat down with a cuppa tea to cool off while it got hot  {-)

But the quiet time did bear fruit because I came up with these little props . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture211.jpg)

Looks like one of those crazy puzzles that send your eyes funny huh?  :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture212.jpg)

Any clearer? . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture214.jpg)

Here's it's partner . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture215.jpg)

And this is their job  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture216.jpg)

They allow me to clamp from odd angles to pull in that ""**~~?*&^%$  :o plank into place for gluing.

The funny angled block gives the sash cramp foot a grip while the grooved pad stops the blunt end denting my newly formed plank edge  O0

Incidentally the first two photos show how I plot the top edge of the new plank  :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on March 10, 2011, 06:35:31 PM
Inspired! And it'll be no bother to rattle off different angles as the planking proceeds around the frames.  :-))

I like it.

Andy
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2011, 02:29:47 AM
Haaa! Andy :-))

You're following my line of thinking!  O0

Here's the mad thing . . . .

It's 14 hours later, I've been at the mothers with my daughters for tea and Mum and I have put the world to rights over a glass of wine or three  :o  O0

(* Hic! * )

And I stroll home (stagger  {-) )

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture217.jpg)

Take off the clamps while the coco is brewing . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture218.jpg)

And it's as if all that never happened  >:-o

No glue here! - Just pins mind  :o

I confess I've never planked in oak before, I've use maple and birch ply before and the odd strip hewn from mahogany drawer fronts . . .

It's tough stuff to work with - blunting the sharpest plane iron that I have to resharpen every session . . . .

And it puts up one helluva fight . . . .

But I heartily recommend it! O0 {-)

I take my hat off to the old boys that built big ships with this stuff  ;)

They knew what they were about!  O0
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: DickyD on March 11, 2011, 02:37:46 AM
This time of the morning, you're barmy Greggy.  %)
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2011, 02:48:29 AM
Hi DickyD

You only just noticed?  {-)

What's your excuse? 

 :-))
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: DickyD on March 11, 2011, 03:06:06 AM
How long have you got ? {:-{
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2011, 03:23:02 AM
Hang on I'll grab me cuppa and a chair  {-)

Must be something about this model boat building caper me thinks!  :-))

Keeping odd hours helps when you have patient neighbours! O0

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2011, 01:06:30 PM
I love this steaming caper . . . .  :-))

Have I said that already?

Once you've fought the hot plank into place and allowed it to dry . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture219.jpg)

Its made to believe it was always that way . .

And  breeze to fit and glue into place . . .

Even that **%^$£"** forward end of plank #3 has finally submitted  :-))

While I was removing the tail end of plank #3 to get it ready for gluing . . . . . one of the pins at the butt join pulled through the plank and remained in the frame  >>:-(

This split the end and left a hole  :o

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture222.jpg)

So it got the fine oak sawdust and runny superglue treatment.

5 minutes later it was sanded smooth and will now be drilled to take another pin when I come to glue the plank down.  :-))

Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Greggy1964 on March 11, 2011, 04:10:02 PM
The Plank Pixies must'ave visited during the night . . . . .  {-)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture223.jpg)

This is not the plank I fought with yesterday!  . . . . .

Held in place by two quick clamps??

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture224.jpg)

Glued and pinned???

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture225.jpg)

Unbelievable!  :o

The only reason I know this is the same plank . . . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture227.jpg)

Is that it's still got my blood all over it!  :o

You put out a carrot and a mince pie for Santa and Rudolf . . . . .

What should I leave out for Plank Pixies so they visit me again?  {-) O0

 
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: George 1964 on April 11, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Stern half of both 2nd planks in glued in place  :-))

It's going slower than I'd hoped but now I have all my tools in place so I should speed up when I get into my groove  O0

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture179.jpg)

For the moment to get my plank bevel I'm simply running a felt tipped pen down the edge marking 1/3rd the depth of the plank and a smidgen down the outside face edge . . .

And sanding it away, its comming out surprisingly accurate.  :-))

I'll do it this way until I dream up a more reliable gadget to do the job.  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture175.jpg)

Port side . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture176.jpg)

starboard side . . .

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture178.jpg)

Overhead  :-))

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/greggy1964/Planking%20Master%20Hands%20Hull/Picture180-1.jpg)

Check out those caulking grooves :-))

Plank seams are tight and no light passes through  O0

Tomorrow I'll steam the forward end of the planks and fix in place.

I won't go into detail of every plank ad-nauseaum but I will post the odd photo as I progress up the hull  :-))

However I will post newsworthy events  ;)

I think I've said it already but I'm using Cascamite powder glue mixed 3 1/2 parts to one part water or as its called now Polymite.

When the glue goes off I take each of my mid frame clamps off and run a fine knife edge down the caulking seams to clear out splurged glue . . . .

It's a lot easier at this stage than when it sets rock hard! :o

The clamps go back on afterwards until the glue cures :-))

Under the jaws of the clamps I have short pieces of duff planking stock on front and back faces of the plank area being clamped with strips of shopping back between to prevent them sticking to the plank.

And so it goes  :-)


  hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 sadly pasted way on the 16 of march. he had a massive stroke. he will be sadly misted be you all.

he was my best friend and sailing buddy, R.I.P Greg happy sailing. if you'd loike to leave a note on his face book page please do so, follow the link .


Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: George 1964 on April 11, 2011, 10:52:34 PM
 hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 sadly pasted way on the 16 of march. he had a massive stroke. he will be sadly misted be you all.

he was my best friend and sailing buddy, R.I.P Greg happy sailing. if you'd loike to leave a note on his face book page please do so, follow the link .

 hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 sadly pasted way on the 16 of march. he had a massive stroke. he will be sadly misted be you all.

he was my best friend and sailing buddy, R.I.P Greg happy sailing. if you'd loike to leave a note on his face book page please do so, follow the link .



 hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 sadly pasted way on the 16 of march. he had a massive stroke. he will be sadly misted be you all.

he was my best friend and sailing buddy, R.I.P Greg happy sailing. if you'd loike to leave a note on his face book page please do so, follow the link .



hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 past away on the 16 of march . he had a massive stroke. at only 46 years old. he will be sadly misted by you all. please leave on note on his face book page .   Greg Bulmer ...yours george leighton his best friend and sailing buddy . R.I.P greg happy sailing .
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: bosun on April 11, 2011, 11:17:28 PM
I am so  sorry to hear that very sad news, Greggy,s builds and comments were always a great joy, and even though we never met, I for one will miss them and him.
God Bless
 Bosun
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: stoney on April 11, 2011, 11:18:18 PM
 Very sad news and only 46. R.I.P Greg

 Paul
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: dreadnought72 on April 11, 2011, 11:40:22 PM
Hi George,

I'm really shocked, saddened and upset to read your news about Greg.

I'd noticed that the build had "stopped" on or around the 11th, and thought Greg had maybe put it back in the attic to temporarily recoop his "build-batteries" as we all tend to do from time to time. That it won't be completed is a loss to all on Mayhem - but nothing compared to your loss of a good friend, and to his daughter (daughters?) their father.

I'd PM'd him recently regarding some technical thoughts about a project he was considering - I know he had a pile of plans brewing up for all sorts of things, not least his long term wish for a scaled-up version of his sailing canoe.

A very very bad day for all of us.

Andy  :((
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: kiwi on April 12, 2011, 04:42:06 AM
Very sad, he will be truly missed. His build was a breath of fresh air, and I learned a lot.
Condolences to his family and friends
kiwi
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Netleyned on April 12, 2011, 06:54:56 AM
Sad news indeed
Condolences to his Family and friends.

A true scratch builder who saw potential in things most of us would bin.

He will be missed by all who's lives he touched.

RIP Greggy

Ned
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: derekwarner on April 12, 2011, 07:25:41 AM
I humbly second the comment from kiwi........ "very sad, he will be truly missed. His build was a breath of fresh air, and I learned a lot" ....Derek
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: duke of brabant on April 12, 2011, 10:35:58 AM
I'm absolutely schocked,

a man with such a huge drive, ingenuity and witt so suddenly disappeared.
he definitely will be missed.
I was about to propose to meet in person, to discuss the building of smacks.

Condolences to his family and friends.

Nick
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: tigertiger on April 12, 2011, 01:48:41 PM
hi gentlemen i'm very sorry to inform you that greggy 1964 past away on the 16 of march . he had a massive stroke. at only 46 years old. he will be sadly misted by you all. please leave on note on his face book page .   Greg Bulmer ...yours george leighton his best friend and sailing buddy . R.I.P greg happy sailing .

George

I have taken the liberty or copying your post into a message across on the Modal Boating Board.
Here http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29803.new#new

My condolences to the family.

Do you have a link to his facebook page that I can copy across, or can you confirm his facebook ID please.

TT
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: longshanks on April 12, 2011, 09:29:42 PM
A truly sad day for all
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: Wetwater on April 13, 2011, 12:39:15 AM

    Very sorry to hear this.  I have only recently started reading Greggy's posts and
    liked his style of writing.  Entertaining as well as informative.

    R.I.P

    Alan.
Title: Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
Post by: gondolier88 on April 13, 2011, 04:40:14 PM
What a shock, he was such a warm and jovial bloke who could always be relied upon to inpsire, cheer you up or simply have a bit of banter. He will be sadly missed indeed. RIP Greg

Greg