Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: w3bby on November 18, 2009, 02:34:31 pm

Title: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: w3bby on November 18, 2009, 02:34:31 pm
So it's official, Britain has been designated the "worst place to live in Europe"........ http://www.canada.com/life/Britain+worst+place+live+Europe/2096289/story.html?id=2096289 (http://www.canada.com/life/Britain+worst+place+live+Europe/2096289/story.html?id=2096289)

Report here http://www.uswitch.com/press-room/?downloadfile=UK-ENJOYS-HIGHEST-NET-INCOME-IN-EUROPE,-BUT-QUALITY-OF-LIFE-IS-POOREST (http://www.uswitch.com/press-room/?downloadfile=UK-ENJOYS-HIGHEST-NET-INCOME-IN-EUROPE,-BUT-QUALITY-OF-LIFE-IS-POOREST)

I'm not much better off here in Sweden either :(( :(( :(( third from last {:-{
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Ron1 on November 18, 2009, 03:34:26 pm
I hope they all get the message, and stop coming here,Then we will all be better off .  O0 O0 <*< <*<
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: a3nige on November 18, 2009, 04:49:11 pm
Some questions I would like answers to :-

How many civil servants per 10,000 population?
How many police per 10,000 population?
How many doctors...................
Firemen............................


 :(( :(( :(( :(( :((
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 18, 2009, 05:29:24 pm
And knowing the answers would prove what?
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: a3nige on November 18, 2009, 05:42:43 pm
And knowing the answers would prove what?

The relative cost of running our country compared to others!!!!

It would be interesting.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 18, 2009, 06:04:28 pm
It would probably show you that France has far more police and government employees pro rata than the UK for a start but a lot of people hold the opinion that France is a better place to live than the UK, although others don't.

There is a report out today which suggests that the number of police officers has little correlation with crime rate detection levels, it's the effectiveness of the police force which is the important thing.

How do you define a Civil Servant? Somebody who works in the Civil Service? In which case what about the people who work in local government and for the various quangos? Do you include the Coastguards? Do you differentiate between the binmen who work directly for a local authority, those who have been outsourced to the private sector but still do the same job, and those who work for joint public private-partnerships? What about the people working for Network Rail which is essentially publicly funded? If all this isn't confusing enough, bear in mind that the same functions overseas are frequently organised in a very different way which makes direct comparisons very difficult. The French Gendarmes are more of a military organisation than a police one with police functions split between them and local police.

So, simple comparisons will be almost meaningless although the newspapers are quite happy to make headlines from them. You have to get down deep and dirty before you can derive any meaningful conclusions.

Colin
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 18, 2009, 07:07:31 pm

So, simple comparisons will be almost meaningless although the newspapers are quite happy to make headlines from them. You have to get down deep and dirty before you can derive any meaningful conclusions.

Colin


What makes it worse is that, compared with 50 years ago, there are no truly independent providers of figures, so you have to do quite a bit of work before you can start to rely on ANY data.

It ought, however, to be possible to get a figure for total money taken in all forms of 'government income' (tax and the rest), total borrowed, and total left (if any) at the end of each year. It ought to be mandatory to present those simple figures to the voting population each year.

Though clever tricks like the Public Finance Initiative (where companies are given contracts to run government services and try to make a profit on them) will confuse matters. If a government-owned PFI railway takes 10m from the passengers, spends 8m to run it, pays the government 1m and takes a profit of 2m, is that a government tax of 10m, 1m or some other figure?

The real fun comes when you compare the Armed forces. We have 41 Admirals, Rear-Admirals and Vice-Admirals in the Navy, and only 40 fighting ships! See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3073680/Admirals-outnumber-warships-in-Royal-Navy-report-shows.html




Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: The long Build on November 18, 2009, 07:38:47 pm
This Video Probably sums up the article in the Telegraph.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6h8i8wrajA
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 18, 2009, 07:47:13 pm
That Telegraph article is a good example of the confusion. Bulwark, Albion and Ocean are certainly major warships and the larger naval shore bases have Admirals in command so while there may indeed be too many admirals, to relate 41 admirals to 40 fighting ships doesn't actually mean very much.

And of course the PFI is a sleight of hand initiative intended to take public spending off the balance sheet when in fact the detail of the contracts mean that it is very poor value for money over the long term. Those of us who worked in the public sector clearly recognised at the time that it was a political fiddle but of course nobody wanted to listen.

I spent almost all of my career in the public sector but spent a lot of time dealing with the private sector when many services were outsourced in the interests of "efficiency". Whilst the public sector was certainly not without blame, the private sector doesn't come out of it smelling of roses either, being focused on maximising income at the expense of service standards and actually in a better position to disguise its own inefficiencies whereas the public sector was subjected to more transparent scrutiny and high profile criticism. The construction related companies we dealt with were used to dealing with Middle East clients where the fee related cashflows were of a different order of magnitude altogether compared with the paltry sums we had to offer. Some hard lessons were learned on both sides.

Colin

 
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Roger in France on November 19, 2009, 07:35:10 am
Just something to add about international comparisons.

It would be very difficult to compare some public services, country by country.

For example, the French Police force performs a number of functions which the British Police Force does not and vice versa. In France they deal with a wide range of licensing carried out by local authorities in the UK. In the UK the Police escort abnormal loads, in France it is largely done by private contractors. There is no crime prevention function in France.

There is no national ambulance service or paramedic service in France, it is provided by the Fire Service.

There is no independent, government inspection of commercial weights and measures in France, it is done by the petrol pump installation companies and the weighing equipment manufacturer.

These examples just occurred to me as a result of things I was thinking about yesterday, some are insignificant.

I could give many, many examples. These things are not wrong they are just different. It is all about culture and history.

As to living in France as opposed to the UK. It clearly fits with some and not others. I am fully integrated but I know several English folk living in France who avoid any involvement with French life as far as they can and attempt to create a "mini-UK", taking what they can from the French and giving little or nothing back.

France is a highly centralised state with most things controlled by Paris, local government is a mere shadow of the British system. The supervision of the French population by central government would shock most British citizens. Central government here still has a palpable fear of revolution, for instance most Gendarmeries are fortified and some have armoured vehicles. The purpose of the French police is to control not to serve.

Roger in France
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: ajb68 on November 19, 2009, 08:44:20 am
Best or Worst im proud to be British  :-))1
Regards Andy
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: funtimefrankie on November 19, 2009, 09:22:06 am
There's no where else I'd want to live.
I sometime think I'd like to live down south in Cheshire, but then I wake up..... :-))
Take the dog on the beach/sandhills and all is well again.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 19, 2009, 09:57:00 am
The UK is a fantastic country. It probably has the greatest variety of beautiful countryside than any other country in Europe in relation to its size. The "bad" weather is often cited as one of the country's negative aspects. However, without the heavy rain and cooler conditions we wouldn't have such lovely vegetation and scenery; in west Wales for example, the plant life is exquisite all year round. British people are some of the most tolerant and polite in the World and very inventive. Also, contrary to what the media would have us believe (about CCTV cameras, etc), the UK is still a very free country. Of course this is all very subjective and loads will disagree with me, but the UK is a fine country and always will be. I've spent plenty of time in France which is also a very nice country, in different ways, but I'd rather reside in Britain, regardless of the better weather, etc. The people who produce these statistics live on another planet in the Euro zone and probably have zero experience of life in the countries they dismiss. In reality though it is impossible to define what makes one European country better to live in than another because the defining characteristics will always have its supporters and dissenters.

Therefore, as my statement above shows quite clearly, the subject is very personal by and large.

 {:-{
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Wasyl on November 19, 2009, 10:44:12 am
I,was born in Scotland in 1950 and can honestly say that my childhood in the 50,s,and 60,s,was very happy,children respected their elders unlike today,neighbours looked out for each other,whole tenement blocks,were like one big happy family,unlike today where people can live next door to one another for years,and not know they are there,If an adult chastised a child not of his/her own in public for doing something they should,nt have been doing,they were applauded for it,unlike today,where you,re more than likely to be reported for being something you,re not,
Where we stayed in Scotland people rarely locked there doors,because everyone new everone else,we looked out for each other and in many parts of the UK this was the norm,..But over the years I,like a lot of others on here that are my age and older,have seen a mass deterioration of this way of life,
We may still be known as a friendly nation, but to whom are we friendly,??
I have visited almost every country in Europe and have lived and worked in two of them Germany/France,and i can honestly say,I found the Germans and the French to be more tolerant of us than we are to them,
I always had the belief that i would live and die in "Gods Country,....just the way i see it,but over the past ten years or so that belief has been diminished,and i have been for some time now seriously considering a move to Germany,...where,the old beliefs are still in existence,and people look out for one another,and their old people are looked after in the way ours used to be,
And Scottish people are not looked upon as if they came from another planet,

Wullie
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: dreadnought72 on November 19, 2009, 10:55:59 am
Wasyl, in my fifteen years in Scotland I'm still looked on by some of the locals as having come from a different planet.

...I was born in Cumbria.  %%

Andy
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Wasyl on November 19, 2009, 01:10:39 pm
Some of the weirdest people i know  come from Cumbria,weird but very likeable,one in Flimby,and  then there,s Elvis  %% {-)from near Whitehaven,


Wullie
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 19, 2009, 01:16:46 pm
I notice that it is a Canadian website reporting about this apparent "dreadful" place to live (i.e. the UK). Is this laughable or what?  {-) {-) {-)

Why do the refugees in Sangatte want to come to the UK even to the extent of risking their lives in the Channel Tunnel, etc? They don't want to stay in France, and France pays much higher social security than the UK. In theory they could choose to settle in any EU country. Strange isn't it?

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Wasyl on November 19, 2009, 03:11:19 pm
Hi Simon,one of the many reasons why the UK is the Mecca,for all these refugees,is ,its easier for them to, get benefits,.or .drop off the radar,...or learn the universal language,
In the 70,s when all those Boat people were headed for Europe, the Germans took thousands in,but they did not allow them to just wander where the need took them,The Germans had a strict code of conduct,i.e.these refugees had to learn the German way of life,they had to learn German,they were forbidden to take a job,if it meant a German  not having one They did not get benefits thrown at them,unlike here,
Up here in Scotland there has been over the past five years a mass influx of East Europeans, namely Poles,and Czechs,and the benefits they get,beggers belief,
e.g. take one Polish couple, with say 2 children below the age of 16,The children reside in Poland whilst their parents live in Tayside,The husband works in the Farming industry, the wife stays at home,They are allowed to claim child benefit for the two children.even although said,children are in Poland,now that to me, is Nuts,Furthermore if said Pole/Czech decides to bring his/her car over here,They are not law bound to register said car with Swansea,In Tayside last year,there was over 150,000 of unpaid parking tickets,dished out to Polish/Czech nationals and a large percentage of them don,t have car tax and in some cases No insurance,
that is why they all want to come here,.."free housing,medical care,schooling,..there was even an article in the paper recently where itsaid that Tesco,s had foreign nationals working for them,and Tesco,s were paying them to go to night classes in order they learn English,

Britains too soft,

Wullie
 
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 19, 2009, 03:40:32 pm
Having now spent the last five weeks living in a small German town and previously living for two years in Northern Italy as well as working in the United States for the past 12 years I think I can see where some of this maybe coming from.

Having seen the UK change over the last fifty years one thing that has become apparent to me is the changeing attitude of people.  I think as a country we are becoming more and more selfish and insular and driven more and more by materialistic things than we ever have been in history.  We now seem to think we have a right to everything rather than having to work for it and this selfish attitude is slowly permeating into everything else we do.  There are more and more single parent families than ever before as young parents demand more and more for themselves rather than sacrificing things for the family and more and more kids are being brought up by nursing groups because parents have a right to work which they only need to do to be able to buy the items we never dreamed of years ago.  Nowadays every member of the family has a car, which is why our roads are blocked and we don't seem to be able to either put together the infrastructure or get people to travel on public transport.  Everyone has a'right' to thier own car.  To be honest hearing about peoples 'rights' is all you get nowadays and seems to be a means of covering over the fact that greed and selfishness drives so much of what we do.  Supermarkets thrive because everyone wants the convenience of them, we kid ourselves that they are cheap when they aren't as a means of justifying the fact that we ue them and we are driven into a situation where the supermarket giants now control what we buy as well as the prices they decide to pay the farmers.  We see less and less socialising and more and more drink related problems and I'm increasingly concerned about being out late at night in town on my own, and that's in the car!

From what I can see of the european contries they still put far more emphasis on the family unit.  They eat together, they socialise together and they have a responsibility for the community.  In the five weeks I've been here I have seen examples of community activities that seem to be dissapearring in the UK and in Italy in the evening people simply walk around the town centres and talk with each other.  Food is bought more in local farmers markets rather than supermarkets, which, although here are nowhere near as powerful as the giants in the UK.  Food is fresher, seasonal and local because that's what is important here.

I think like it or not we have spent too many years following the American ideal, which is driven purely by selfish greed and open market forces, rather than the good of each other and the quality of our lives.  The Americans are now seeing the results of this culture coming home to roost as corporate giants grash and the corupt banking system teeters on the edge.  We are getting more and more like America as time goes on and less and less like our european allies and it is now starting to show.  We don't do anything for each other, we are rude in public we drink to excess and we invent new ways of displaying rage each year.  I'm not so sure just how proud I am of being British anymore but I am convinced that european countries still seem to be able to have a much better quality of life than we do and that is nothing to do with how much money people have or feel they have a right to.  In the last five weeks everyone I have met has been polite and well mannered and more than happy to go out of thier way to do what they can for you.  They are obviously proud of thier town and they look after it and I feel completely safe walking about on my own at night.

As for the Canadians thinking the UK is a dreadful place to live being laughable, I can only feel sadness that they see us that way.  No matter what arguments you may come up with for how materialistically better or worse it is in the UK I am now more convinced than ever that the quality of life is better in other european countries and that simply makes me sad.  

The eastern european imigrants wanting to live in the UK is simple, it's not the amount of money that is relevent to them, it's the ease in which they can obtain it.  All other european countries have far stricter controls over their handout systems, which is why they are so desperate to be in the UK.  Here they get medical care for thier families, handouts to cover everything and all the work they want because the locals see the work as beneath them.  The local businesses are glad they can find someone to do the work and the government are trying to kid us what a wonderful diverse society we are creating. All the money we pay these people is being taken out of the UK to support thier economies at home and most of them don't even pay taxes.  They do however use our hospitals, police forces and other ameneties which we continue to pay for and which continue to strive to look for more and more ways of making economies because they can't afford to keep to thier budgets.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 19, 2009, 03:51:27 pm
Mr Wasyl

Presumably the Polish/Czech national working in the UK farming industry is paying UK tax? There are estates in this area where the majority have never worked or paid tax and yet happily claim benefit - and every single one of them is a UK-born citizen.

No car imported into the UK can remain here legally for more than six months without being registered.

20% of drivers on the roads have no valid tax or insurance - do you imagine they are all Polish or Czech nationals?

The value quoted for unpaid parking tickets in Tayside pales into insignificance compared with those issued in Inner London to foreign diplomats.......or white-van men almost anywhere.

I'm sure that Tesco would prefer to employ people without the extra expense of having to pay for them to be taught English - but if the indigenous population is too lazy to work or too comfortable claiming benefits then Tesco don't seem to have much of a choice, do they?

At what stage did the various foreign invaders who settled in the UK and spawned our ancestors stop being "immigrants", "boat people" or "refugees"? Was it simply when they became the majority and began to refer to more recent and less fortunate incomers than themselves in those same derogatory terms?

Canada is fine if you like trees......................



Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 19, 2009, 04:32:09 pm
The fact that the UK is prepared to accept so many refugees is one of the reasons it is a good country. Like it or not, the fact remains that if "you" were a refugee seeking sanctuary or wanted to make a better life for "yourself" (as a British person) how many countries would allow "you" in and integrate "you" into their society with relative ease? Put "yourself" into a refugee's shoes; it must be hell for loads of them. Many former refugees become fully integrated into British society and bring countless skills, and benefit their local communities in numerous ways. The notion that they are all on the scrounge and after an easy ride is totally ridiculous - where is the hard evidence to back up this myth? And finally, Britain is great because of its multi-cultural society.

 %)
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: ajb68 on November 19, 2009, 05:42:36 pm
A bit off topic i know but i was mate on a beam trawler out of Brixham and we went through a lot of deckhands and though i hate to say it the native "englishmen" couldnt or didnt want to do the work ! i mean it wasnt rocket science just pick out the scallops then shovel the rest overboard . after crew problems cost us too many days at see the skipper crewed the deck with polish guys and boy did these guys work ! never any word of complaint (well none that i could understand) if people from other countries wish to come here to work its only because a lot of the younger generation are workshy and the men and women who come here want to work , when was the last time you went to hospital ? many of these very skilled positions are filled by people from other countries and when it comes too the lesser skilled jobs on the whole they arent afraid to get there hands dirty !!

Andy
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: kiwi on November 19, 2009, 06:08:07 pm
Hi Bunkerbarge,
Your perceptions are spot-on, and not just for the UK.
I'm from NZ, and like you, have lived worked and travelled extensively. Upon returning to NZ to live and work a couple of years ago, I have found exactly the same attitides and situation here. Most saddening, to see ones own country going down the tubes, and all because of materialistic greed - usa style.
kiwi
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Turbulent on November 19, 2009, 06:27:45 pm
Best or Worst im proud to be British  :-))1
Regards Andy

I'm Proud to be English mate.  :-))
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: DickyD on November 19, 2009, 06:32:59 pm
Kiwi, my family all live in Wellsford North Island and would my medical condition allow it, myself and my good lady would move there tomorrow. Dont  knock your country , its great. :-))
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Marks Model Bits on November 19, 2009, 07:06:55 pm
when was the last time you went to hospital ? many of these very skilled positions are filled by people from other countries and when it comes too the lesser skilled jobs on the whole they arent afraid to get there hands dirty !!

As most of you know Angie has been in hospital recently and she said that the kindest, polite, hard working and most helpful nurses working the ward were the Phillipino nurses. The other nurses did thier job OK but the Phillipino nurses were in a different league.....

Mark.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 19, 2009, 07:23:28 pm
The fact that the UK is prepared to accept so many refugees is one of the reasons it is a good country. Like it or not, the fact remains that if "you" were a refugee seeking sanctuary or wanted to make a better life for "yourself" (as a British person) how many countries would allow "you" in and integrate "you" into their society with relative ease? Put "yourself" into a refugee's shoes; it must be hell for loads of them. Many former refugees become fully integrated into British society and bring countless skills, and benefit their local communities in numerous ways. The notion that they are all on the scrounge and after an easy ride is totally ridiculous - where is the hard evidence to back up this myth? And finally, Britain is great because of its multi-cultural society.

 %)


Whereas I have sympathies with people who do not have the standard of life they want in thier own country lets not over glamourise thier intentions.  They are not here because of how wonderful the country is they are here purely and simply for what they can get out of it.  It's very interesting to note that now the exchage rate with the Euro is closing in there has been a significant shift in the transient workforce around Europe and a very large percentage of eastern europeans are now finding jobs in thier own country.  They were only here for what they could get out of us and the fact that we make it so attractive and easy does not fill me with pride.

How many stories do we have to see on the news where someone cannot get a cancer drug because it is too expensive, someone cannot get treatment for many months because of the waiting list or you can't get your mother into the care home that is near to you because the council can't afford to pay for that one.  To me charity begins at home and we should look after ourselves first before we are so ready to dish it out to every one else.

German national hospitals are of a better standard than our private ones in the UK and a world apart from the disgrace of the NHS.  They have something to be proud of there, and we are supposed to have led the way with the NHS.  The Leeds General Infirmary now close the hospital to visitors every Thursday afternoon to give them time to clean the hospital.  They should be absolutely ashamed to admit that they only do it once a week.  Hospital cleanliness should be a continuous process not a once a week job.  What they are saying is the hospital is dirty for six and a half days!!!

Let's not also forget that peoples perceptions of the significance of these issues are greatly influenced by thier own experiences and there are some towns around the UK that are far more affected than some other areas.  I would be very surprised to hear of anyone who actually condoned sending child benefit money out of the UK to a foreign country so perhaps if that was going on in your own town it may just adjust your views on the issue.

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: andygh on November 19, 2009, 07:59:45 pm
You a Daily Mail reader?
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 19, 2009, 08:16:43 pm
Bunkerbarge,

You need to back up your argument with some hard facts. It is a sweeping generalisation that all foreign nationals who seek asylum, or want to move to the UK for other reasons, do so just for what they can get. You speak from a very privileged position and if the boot was on the other foot would you be so eager to condemn many innocent and hard working folk from abroad? We in the UK are extremely lucky in a worldwide sense, with relatively little to worry about in comparison to say Afghanistan or parts of the Far East (i.e. no wars, starvation, torture, catastrophic natural disasters, etc, etc). Generosity is what helps define civilisation and the UK is a very generous nation.

 %)
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: DickyD on November 19, 2009, 08:31:33 pm
You a Daily Mail reader?

I'm a Daily Mail Reader. Want to meet me out back.  <*< <*< ok2
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Wasyl on November 19, 2009, 08:44:04 pm
Mr Wasyl

Presumably the Polish/Czech national working in the UK farming industry is paying UK tax? There are estates in this area where the majority have never worked or paid tax and yet happily claim benefit - and every single one of them is a UK-born citizen.

No car imported into the UK can remain here legally for more than six months without being registered.

20% of drivers on the roads have no valid tax or insurance - do you imagine they are all Polish or Czech nationals?

The value quoted for unpaid parking tickets in Tayside pales into insignificance compared with those issued in Inner London to foreign diplomats.......or white-van men almost anywhere.

I'm sure that Tesco would prefer to employ people without the extra expense of having to pay for them to be taught English - but if the indigenous population is too lazy to work or too comfortable claiming benefits then Tesco don't seem to have much of a choice, do they?

At what stage did the various foreign invaders who settled in the UK and spawned our ancestors stop being "immigrants", "boat people" or "refugees"? Was it simply when they became the majority and began to refer to more recent and less fortunate incomers than themselves in those same derogatory terms?

Canada is fine if you like trees......................I,ve got a friend who lives in Canada,..he thinks its great!...unlike some parts of Engerland, ;D


Wullie




Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: ajb68 on November 19, 2009, 08:45:12 pm
As most of you know Angie has been in hospital recently and she said that the kindest, polite, hard working and most helpful nurses working the ward were the Phillipino nurses. The other nurses did thier job OK but the Phillipino nurses were in a different league.....

Mark.

I think we would be in a hell of a mess without these people to be honest !  {:-{
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Bunkerbarge on November 19, 2009, 09:13:26 pm
Bunkerbarge,

You need to back up your argument with some hard facts.

No I don't.  I am able to draw my own conclusions from my experiences of living and working with mixed nationalities in many different countries all my working life. 

I don't have to provide facts to justify my point of view to you no more than any one else does to any of us.  I don't expect anyone to have to supply hard facts to simply have an opinion but I do expect to be able to share differing sides of a debate without being told what I need to do.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: DickyD on November 19, 2009, 09:18:57 pm
Think it might be time to close this topic.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: andygh on November 19, 2009, 09:46:08 pm
Quote
I'm a Daily Mail Reader. Want to meet me out back.

You really wouldn't want to do that ok2
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 19, 2009, 09:53:59 pm
As a born and bred, true blue Aussie, I think Britain is a beautiful place, great people, glorious countryside and fascinating history - shame about the weather  {-) I have been fortunate enough to visit the UK on 3 occasions, in 1993, 1997 and 2008, and would go back again next week if I could - I love it, but I also love where I live. I think our area is one of the most beautiful places I've seen anywhere, but I'm biased, extremely biased, and I'm sure many of you would say exactly the same about where you live.

One of the signs of growing older is when we start saying, "things aren't what they used to be". I say it, my parents said it, and my grandparents said it. My children and grandchildren will probably start saying it in a few years time. The fact is that times change, and not always for the better. We can try to change it if we are able, but if we can't we have to accept it and move on.

Peter.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: chingdevil on November 19, 2009, 10:19:48 pm
I do not want or need apologies from people, just because their newspapers say the UK is the worst place to live in Europe. I am British and proud of it and would not want to live anywhere else, I have travelled to quite a few countries around the world and thought they would be a nice place to move to, but when I return home I am glad to be here. We still have the freedom to speak and protest, yes we have a fair few cctv cameras, but I have yet to find a country that would give me the life style that I have now.

I do get fed up by foreign nationals who get here by foul means or fair and then winge and complain about the country and its traditions, but are still happy to take the handouts they can scrounge. In my opinion if they do not like it leave, there are no guards dogs or barbed wire keeping them her only the handouts. I have some Eastern Europeans living next door to me, and they are the most noisiest and dirtiest people I have ever had the missfortune to meet. They rent the property from a friend of mine, both the women have had children and they have asked for the lease to be put in one of the womens names so they can get some more benefits, my friend declined.

I do get fed up with the do gooders who tell us we should help all these people, and all the others from the rest of the poor world who can not be bothered to do anything for their own countries but are happy to travel half way around the world to steal from this one.

And yes I do read The Daily Mail

Brian

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 19, 2009, 11:15:39 pm
No I don't.  I am able to draw my own conclusions from my experiences of living and working with mixed nationalities in many different countries all my working life.  

I don't have to provide facts to justify my point of view to you no more than any one else does to any of us.  I don't expect anyone to have to supply hard facts to simply have an opinion but I do expect to be able to share differing sides of a debate without being told what I need to do.

Begging your pardon Sir! Have you thought about applying for a job in the immigration office?  :P

Luckily there are plenty of enlightened people living in the UK ...


Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: dodgy geezer on November 19, 2009, 11:27:33 pm
I just wonder who had the brilliant idea that a prospective immigrant could immediately take advantage of all the social benefits of the UK on arrival, but was forbidden to work to support himself.

Most people I talk to suggest that a prospective immigrant should be encouraged to work and support himself immediately, but should only be allowed to take advantage of social benefits once he had paid in a certain amount of taxes...
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: kiwi on November 19, 2009, 11:28:06 pm
Hi DickyD,
I'm not knocking my country, just stating a sad fact of life. I'm proud to be a Kiwi, and both my parents, my brother and sister have lived here all their lives. It is a beautiful country, and so is the UK, but I've always been of the opinion that if you want to live here, make sure you have enough capital in hand to not have to work here. You do that, you will enjoy living here.
cheers
kiwi
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: w3bby on November 20, 2009, 02:02:27 am
I do not want or need apologies from people, just because their newspapers say the UK is the worst place to live in Europe. I am British and proud of it
Just for your information I am British (and proud of it) though I live in Sweden (almost 20 years now). I thought the report appeared to cover a fairly broad range of issues and drew a conclusion based on those issues, not how people feel emotionally about their country and was worthy of a little discussion.

Quote "The uSwitch.com study examined 17 factors in order to understand where the UK sits in relation to nine other major European countries. Variables such as net income, taxes and the cost of essential goods, such as fuel, food and energy bills, were examined along with lifestyle factors, such as hours of sunshine, holiday entitlement, working hours and life expectancy to provide a complete picture of the quality of life experienced in each country.
The findings show that people in the UK and Ireland have the poorest quality of life, while the French and Spanish enjoy the highest. The UK gets the lowest number of days holiday per year[12], pays the highest prices for diesel[4] and food[5] and spends below the European average (as a percentage of GDP) on health[8] and education[9]. It also has the 4th lowest life expectancy in Europe[3] and workers retire later than most of their European counterparts[2]." (Numbers in brackets are to references contained in the pdf)

I guess I could change the title and ask "What happened whilst I was out?".

I find it interesting that some of the issues brought up in some of the responses are similar to issues found in Sweden, immigration being one.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 20, 2009, 08:44:28 am
Isn't it somehow sadly predictable the way this thread has prompted a string of xenophobic rants?
 
While it's true that people coming into the UK from abroad are granted limited benefits in specific circumstances, I'm certain that they are not entitled to anything from which a UK citizen is barred - unless you include being banged up in a "reception centre" for an indefinite period under the threat of deportation while someone at the Ministry of Homeland Security or whatever loses their paperwork.

That neighbour A might be a noisy, lazy and untidy example of nationality B is not a reflection upon that entire nation - it's simply a fact that he is a noisy, lazy and untidy individual. There are any number of "true Brits" wandering around who have equally unpleasant personal traits - some a lot worse e.g avarice, indolence, arrogance, racism, homophobia, paedophilia. You don't need a funny accent to be anti-social.

If we stopped relying on the right-wing gutter press for our opinions and stopped importing brainless and tasteless trailer-trash culture from the USA (the nation which went from independence to decadence without bothering to touch civilization on the way) then we might stand a chance. 'Gangstas' and the drugs'n'gun culture didn't come from Bangladesh, and the foul language we hear from kids on the street isn't spoken in Polish or Czech.
 
If all of the so-called immigrants, refugees and boat people were suddenly spirited away into a fourth dimension then I doubt if the nation's social security budget would register the effect whereas the hospitals, local authority services and public transport would for sure. Blaming the country's social maladies on a few minorities is the stuff of fascism and I don't want any part of that. Read the Daily Mail or a Murdoch rag if you must, but don't fall for their agenda. It's as pernicious and selfish as Mr Nick Griffin's own, save that he is a little more transparent.

Last point; anyone who has met the owner of this forum will know that his folks come from Jamaica - are we somehow permitted to make exemptions from our prejudices for the people we know?

FLJ

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Roger in France on November 20, 2009, 12:22:38 pm
From both the the dross which has been spouted on this subject and the wisdom comes the best and funniest comment which made me laugh with great pleasure and shows our great friend FLJ to be a master of letters:

"...the nation which went from independence to decadence without bothering to touch civilisation on the way....."

I only hope, Dave, that the North American market holds up for you!

I suggest this topic has gone far enough and I recommend Martin to lock it now.

Roger in France
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: polobeer on November 20, 2009, 12:53:16 pm
Roger,

I hope you include yourself in the statement that you made above, as you were one of the authors? The entire debate is relevant with "no dross", just interesting views and a smattering of humour. It should be allowed to run because it will fade out in due course, as all threads do.

S
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Roger in France on November 20, 2009, 03:05:35 pm
Of course I include myself in the statement I made.

I leave you and others to decide in which part of that statement.

Roger in France

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: snowwolflair on November 20, 2009, 03:23:55 pm
Appart from those of us decended from the Picts, you are all foreigners to me.  Its only a matter of when you ancesters came to live here.

I have lived all over the world and there are good people and bad people everywhere, frankly I dont mind if the good people of the world live here.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Bugsy on November 20, 2009, 03:38:22 pm
I am proud to be English and love all thats best about the UK.
Its just the politics and the PC in the UK that I struggle with.

France isn't perfect, of course, and not for everyone. It just suits us.

Gary.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: derekwarner on November 20, 2009, 04:25:54 pm
OK....digressing a little....

In the 1870's Britain does not understand how to deal with the underclass...so these underclass convict people were exported  O0...deported to the other side of the world....to like OZ & Kiwi

Many years later..... O0...Britain gets into a tiff with her cousin....& WW1 happens

The 'call' goes out....& the descendent's of our convict history stand up to the call with the resultant proud name of ANZACS

Many years later [2009] ......our OZ troops are still defending the sovereign soil of another land.....but 20,000 km from the soil where they were born ....Derek

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: BarryM on November 20, 2009, 04:29:14 pm
Appart from those of us decended from the Picts, you are all foreigners to me.  Its only a matter of when you ancesters came to live here.

I have lived all over the world and there are good people and bad people everywhere, frankly I dont mind if the good people of the world live here.

Ach, you Picts are just newcomers - we Cro-magnons got here first.  %)

Barry M
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 20, 2009, 04:31:33 pm
Quote
Ach, you Picts are just newcomers - we Cro-magnons got here first.

I think you are forgetting that there are a lot of Neanderthals on Mayhem - they aren't extinct at all.  :} :} :}

Colin

Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: toesupwa on November 20, 2009, 05:26:39 pm
Just a few facts as to why, when i married an American girl, she didnt come to GB... I moved to the USA in 2005..

In the USA, Income tax is (on average) 8%...
In the USA, Sales tax (like VAT) is on average 8%
In the USA, Petrol (Gas) is about $3 a gallon... and about $10 (equivalent) in GB..
In the USA, a 3 bed double garage bungalow @ 1500 sq ft is $300,000... that's 150,000 GB pounds..

Quality of life here in the USA is FAR better than in GB...

Yes, I was born in GB.. and yes, it is a beautiful country.. but i dont think i want to come back..  {:-{
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 20, 2009, 07:35:28 pm
But in the USA don't they just have two week's holiday per year?
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: regiment on November 20, 2009, 07:47:41 pm
all that money saved and only two weeks to spend it in  boy what a two weeks holiday we could have
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 20, 2009, 09:06:20 pm
But in the USA don't they just have two week's holiday per year?

We have four weeks annual holiday in Australia, plus the usual public holidays - Christmas, Easter, Labour Day, Anzac Day, Australia Day and Queen's Birthday (yes, we still have a Queen's Birthday holiday in June).

Petrol is the equivalent of 60p a litre.
GST (VAT) is 10%
The average 3 bedroom, double garage house (bungalow to you) is under $300,000
Income tax is calculated as below:-

TAXABLE INCOME
$0 $6,000 Nil
$6,001 $35,000, 15c for each $1 over $6,000
$35,001 $80,000, $4,350 plus 30c for each $1 over $35,000
$80,001 $180,000, $17,850 plus 38c for each $1 over $80,000
Over $180,000, $55,850 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

This is taxable income, after all appropriate deductions have been made.

It makes an interesting comparison with America, plus we don't have a President %)

Peter.
Title: Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
Post by: Martin [Admin] on November 21, 2009, 12:31:23 am
OK, subject closed.
   Lets talk about something else now....