Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Watchleader on November 22, 2009, 03:14:04 pm

Title: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Watchleader on November 22, 2009, 03:14:04 pm
Is this a silly question?. I am in the initial stages of planning the building of 1/24 SB "Lady Daphne". I would welcome comments/hints/guidance from anyone who has built this model. I feel that some form of lee control is going to be required, but am reluctant to add a false keel. (OK I'm a purist!!). Has anyone out there produced working leeboards? Also the plans show a bowsprit rigged in, but all all contemporary pics of her show her minus bowsprit. All answers will be much appreciated. Any other information on this model build will be appreciated. Hoping - John L
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: wideawake on November 22, 2009, 03:37:04 pm
I shall watch this thread with great interest John.   I have a Lady Daphne hull under the bench waiting it's turn and also the set  of plans and the pic file from dateline.   I too had noticed that she's shown rigged with a bowsprit on the plan but now operates with a staysail rig.     I suspect that many of the barges changed rig during their lives.   I'm undecided whether to build mine "as plan" or as she is now.  

WRT leeboards I think the accepted view is that in scaled down form (with a non-scaled-down wind) they are largely useless and a removable drop keel will be needed for sailing.   I intend to make my leeboards operate just for the look of it though.   Ivor Bittle has the best website I know for info on model barges.   Not only excellent examples of building technique but thought through reasoning leading  to a barge which looks like the real thing and sails like the real thing.    I shall be using his website as my bible when building  my Lady D.   Ivor reads this forum so he may well pop up himself to pass on his experience.   I only have intentions ATM though lady D is slated to be my next major build.


Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: bosun on November 22, 2009, 06:19:23 pm
Yo John
Nice to see you on the site at last, I,m sure you will get all the answers to your questions on here, the sail guy,s are very knowledgeable %%, now if it was a tug or fishing boat, ;) that,s another story, see you in the week, dig out that stain for me mate.
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: tobyker on November 22, 2009, 11:10:21 pm
I think you will need a keel, not necessarily so much to avoid making excessive leeway, but to counteract the heeling effect of the non-scale wind, and give sufficient righting moment. However, if the ballast was sheet lead on a flat barge floor , ie as low down as it's possible to get it inside the boat, it might work, provided the wind is very steady and not gusting.  I've sailed sailing canoes, 11' and 17' long with no keels at all and really quite small leeboards are quite enough to get the boats running straight - though you do need to get a bit of speed up to get a reasonable water flow over them before you can point up much.

On balance, as winds do gust, I think you would need outside ballast.
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Watchleader on November 23, 2009, 11:13:18 am
Thank you all for coming back so promptly. You have given me some very good information and the the link to the ivor bittle site is excellent.
It does look as if external low weight is necessary for anything like realistic sailing, or even reasonable handing, so a removable keel is the order of the day.
I am really grateful to all for the response.
For elegance and appearance I must go for a bowsprit and I think a mizzen assisted rudder is a positive thought. Though the loss of wheel housing and the WC ?? What a shame!
Thank you again and if there are any more thoughts/wrinkles/tips out there please send them in.
Regards John L ( Tel - Dye will be with you later.)
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: bluepeter on January 05, 2010, 08:54:39 pm
A model barge will sail with working leeboards and no external keel.  If the barge is plank-on-frame (always the best way I think - I'm a purist too) you can get sheet lead ballast well down in the hull for the best effect.  Also, attach sheet lead to the inner face of the leeboards below the chine to stop them floating and to give a righting moment. You have to sail the model with an eye on the wind though and shorten sail when it gets too strong (years ago I used to sail my barge Westmorland on Tynemouth lake, which is notorious for fickle and gusty wind) but the result to me is more pleasing than barges with false keels and perspex rudders - also unnecessary.

Good luck and enjoy the sailing.

Peter Spence
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Jimmy James on January 07, 2010, 11:17:47 am
Leeboards will work if
1) you ballast the hull down to fully loaded depth
2) weight the boards on the lower inside edges and make them slightly longer (to get them deeper in the water)
3)  angle the trailing edge out approx 6 deg ( this helps overcome leeway and helps keep the boards bown)
4) IF you can rig a servo to lift the weather board and lower the leeward board it is more efficient
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Watchleader on March 09, 2010, 10:38:59 pm
Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread  :-))    I have taken all on board. (pun not intended).
As the temperature is at last coming up and the wokshop is getting nearly inhabitable, I shall be continuing the build of Lady Daphne.
I was keeping a photo record of the build, but I had not transferred all pics to computer when I had a burglary and lost cameras and all nontransferred pics., as well as other things.
Luckily the workshop was locked, but the shed wasn't. It is now! They weren't interested in paint or electrics, but did get at some beer.
Again thank you all.  John
PS. When completed I intend to post the build sequence pics on here. Don't hold your breath though, I am not a fast builder. (Bosun will add a comment here I'm sure!)
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: bosun on March 10, 2010, 08:42:23 am
Since when have you taken any notice of what I say John %. You may be slow but I,ll put that down to old age.
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Popeye on March 10, 2010, 09:17:15 am
Ahoy Watchleader.

I hope the following information will be of use to you in respect of 'Lady Daphne' should you not already be aware:-

- she is based at Maldon ,Essex and is used for charter work.
- she is currently staysail rigged

I built a 1:24 scale version of her sister 'Lady Jean' (privately owned, also based at Maldon) and opted for a bolt - on keel having heeded the advise of other members of AMBO (Association of Model Barge Owners - My  model incorporated a bowsprit purely for the reason that I thought it looked better than the staysail version (which is how 'Lady Jean' is also rigged).
It's a large model (my Buddy called it a Breeze Block with the corners knocked off) and needed a good breeze to perform at its best.

I hope you have as much fun with your barge as I did with mine.

Good luck,
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Watchleader on March 10, 2010, 01:10:32 pm
Thank you Popeye, for the information.
Lady Jane looks really great. I hope Lady Daphne looks as good and sails as well as LJ appears to.
I am also going to build bowsprit version; much more elegant looking. Maybe a little more vulnerable??
I've tried to pan into pics (I hope you don't mind) just to see more detail. ---Got pixilated too quickly.
What sort of weight did Lady Jane come out at, on the water?
Thanks again and best wishes.

PS. Thanks Bosun you didn't let me down, but you do start catching me up again very soon!
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: wideawake on March 10, 2010, 01:55:37 pm
Has Lady Daphne change her home mooring?   I was under the impression that she had normally tied at St Katharine's Dock.

I have a GRP Lady Daphne hull under the bench.   The plan is that it will be my next sailing project.   I'm also thinking of building her with a bowsprit, though, as you say, she's staysail rigged ATM.   I agree that barges look more elegant bowsprit rigged.   I plan to make the leeboards operate though I don't expect them to have any significant effect.
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: farrow on March 26, 2010, 07:57:58 pm
I think you will find the Lady Daphne in trade sported a bowsprit as did most of Paul's fleet especially the larger ones such as the Ladies, the one exception I know of was the Anglia. When I was at school a teacher was given an old model made of wood (pre war) by a guy who modeled it on a barge he actually sailed, the teacher refurbished it with new sails cut to correct scale size etc and she sailed superbly with only leeboards. The leeboards where shaped in the round feather type matched favoured in the early 1890's to 1920's, remember barges by their nature do make a lot of leeway in real life. I find that watching models with centre keels look more like modern yachts when sailing than like the original barges and I have sailed on some when I was younger.
It may be of interest to you to know when creek working or turning up narrow waterways, you sailed more of the wind with barely any board down. When going about you shot the barge as much as possible head to wind, taking care not loose to much before bringing the wind onto the other side. This way using the tide you got maximum forward progress, what you had to be careful of was that you did not loose too much headway, as a barge when stopped or going too slow was not that very stable and could capsize quite easily if a lot of weight came on her sails to suddenly.
Title: Re: Keel or working lee boards
Post by: Watchleader on July 01, 2010, 10:55:02 am
Thanks to all the above contributors. After all your feed back, and a lot of reading, I decided on the cautionary approach of including the facility of a weighted fin keel, or "not"! - by building in a keel box (in which I can put a plug) and also allowing areas for flat lead sheet inside hull.
I read avidly the Ivor Bittle site and almost decided that giving up was my best option. (That thought was short lived thankfully). What a model builder!! But what a place to learn!!
The build is now progressing (slowly). I will start a build thread soon. Though I'm afraid some of the early pics were lost when my camera was stolen in a burglary earlier this year. I now transfer any pics straight to computer as and when. I don't think the loss of the early ones will be too much of a loss - only ballast checks and stand making and keel box making and little else of interest.