Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: gondolier88 on December 09, 2009, 08:57:10 pm
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Thats why I drive an Audi.
Topic split from - German Engineering ( computerised submarine model )
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21275.msg206837#msg206837 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21275.msg206837#msg206837)
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........and I drive a VW... :-)) :-))
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Someone has to! :-))
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If German Engineering is so good why don't indicators work on BMW's?
Bob
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Cos it ain't an Audi! :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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But aren't Audi drivers wannabe BMW drivers?
Bob
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{-) Thats one of the best i've heard so far!!!
We all know BMW drivers are wannabe Porsche drivers anyway.... %)
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From what ive heard bmw just need to learn how to make wheels that dont crack O0 O0
Andy
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Why do BMW owners always drive as if they are late for the next blitzkreig?
Barry M
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Why do BMW owners always drive as if they are late for the next blitzkreig?
Barry M
because they can <*<
Peter
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Why do BMW owners always drive as if they are late for the next blitzkreig?
Barry M
Because they have to have a lobotomy before they are allowed to buy and drive one ?
I'll get me coat.
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"I'll get me coat"
Its a wonder,you,ve any coats left! {-)
Wullie
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Because they have to have a lobotomy before they are allowed to buy and drive one ?
I'll get me coat.
I wouldn't mind but it's the caterpillar track marks they leave on the roof...
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........and I drive a VW... :-)) :-))
Audi and VW, same Firm, same product different prices! Same goes for Skoda, a cheaper version of a VW.
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German engineers have a Motto " Never use one part if you can possibly get 5 parts in the same place.
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You forgot ..Seat!
Wullie
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Nothing wrong with seat , exept the dont build much of a car apart from the badge !! O0
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Oh,i don,t know about that,..The Leon,is a great car,..but we seem to be overlooking that other maker, Mercedes,ive got a 2.9d 5 cylinder engine in my car,and it runs sweet as a nut, on re-cycled veggie oil,..only down side is ..I smell like a roving Chippie to the guy behind me, {-) {-)
Wullie
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A few years ago I worked for a Finnish manufacturing company which bought a small German company because they wanted the product the Germans were building (it was selling well in Europe). When the engineers on the shop floor (us) finally got to see this wonder of cutting edge engineering it became plain that the whole thing was going to need a redesign, the engineering was utterly awful.
German engineering is overhyped in my opinion, given the choice between a hand built British machine or an equivalent German one the Brits win every time. French engineering on the other hand is very good in my experience, as is most Italian. Spanish? forget it :-X
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I would agree with you there, Hand/built British,cars are superior, but when it comes to mass produced,i have to say that German quality control was far superior to that of Brit massed produced cars,take for instance,..a Ford,made in Dagegham,was no match for one built in Germany,..same car/model,different quality,British logic in the 60,s 70,s,when Japanese cars,started to gain a foothold in Britain,we embraced them because they were apparently well built and cheap by comparison,we threw money at them,let them build cars here gave them concessions on building factories,Then when these consessions ran out,TheJaps soon followed, hence the demise of British car manufacturing,TheGermans on the other hand,held the Japs at bay,and refined their cars to the level we have come to expect of all German made cars,
Wullie
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Agreed but that's more to do with politics than engineering. The gradual decline of British manufacturing is 99% down to the lack of investment not the quality of engineering, whereas the Germans have had a much more long sighted approach. On top of all that, the bean counters have been very happy to sell off our companies to the highest foreign bidders (otherwise known as asset strippers).
Frankly I'm glad to be out of the whole thing, instead of making them I now just fix 'em when they're broke and I get payed more to do it. "Go" as our American cousins say "figure" {:-{
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Oh,i don,t know about that,..The Leon,is a great car,..but we seem to be overlooking that other maker, Mercedes,ive got a 2.9d 5 cylinder engine in my car,and it runs sweet as a nut, on re-cycled veggie oil,..only down side is ..I smell like a roving Chippie to the guy behind me, {-) {-)
Wullie
Mercedes i spose they apeal to the people after the retro look {-) {-) {-) {-)
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Nothing wrong with a Mercedes, I had one before I was relegated to a Motability car.
Didnt have to fly about because I knew I could if I wanted to.
Didnt really have to drive it as it did most thing on its own.
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If you think German engineering and design is wonderful you've never looked at my VW Passat or experienced the VW (lack of) Customer Care. >:-o
Barry M
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Have to say Mercedes customer care was excellent.
Was the same if the Mercedes truck I drove needed work done. :-))
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Nothing wrong with a Mercedes, I had one before I was relegated to a Motability car.
Didnt have to fly about because I knew I could if I wanted to.
Didnt really have to drive it as it did most thing on its own.
you can have most car's on Motability.I know you can have BMWs and Toyota's even the sports models.
Peter
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Yes but now I have next to no income I'm a bit limited to what I can have.
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I would agree with you there, Hand/built British,cars are superior, but when it comes to mass produced,i have to say that German quality control was far superior to that of Brit massed produced cars,take for instance,..a Ford,made in Dagegham,was no match for one built in Germany,..same car/model,different quality,British logic in the 60,s 70,s,when Japanese cars,started to gain a foothold in Britain,we embraced them because they were apparently well built and cheap by comparison,we threw money at them,let them build cars here gave them concessions on building factories,Then when these consessions ran out,TheJaps soon followed, hence the demise of British car manufacturing,TheGermans on the other hand,held the Japs at bay,and refined their cars to the level we have come to expect of all German made cars,
Wullie
There isn't a single large car mass producer in britain that isn't really foreign owned and run- before you say 'what about Morgan, TVR, Aston etc?'- they ALL have majority or all foreign ownership.
British engineering killed itself by resting on the laurels of yesteryear- Germany had to completely rebuild itself after the war and put into place longterm plans for it's financial future, based largely on export of well engineered products- under Hitler's rule it had been proven that infrastructure, modern manufacturing techniques, mass production and qaulity control were the way forward- something that really we NEVER learnt in Britain.
German car manufacturers have a reputation that is second to none because they have worked for it and they know how to market what they have, they also know the little things that keep a customer coming back for more, and instead of the British mentality of old- 'we must strive for more customers by offering more and more diverse models' German manufacturers stick to what they're good at, and that is enough, you buy German cars with your head and not your heart, for that reason they will never go out of fashion.
Greg
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Quote
German car manufacturers have a reputation that is second to none because they have worked for it and they know how to market what they have, they also know the little things that keep a customer coming back for more, and instead of the British mentality of old- 'we must strive for more customers by offering more and more diverse models' German manufacturers stick to what they're good at, and that is enough, you buy German cars with your head and not your heart, for that reason they will never go out of fashion.
Greg
Unquote
Greg,
Total Hooey! As previously mentioned, my German-designed and German-built VW Passat is the biggest motoring mistake I have ever made.
Regards,
Barry M
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If iv'e said it once...cos' you ain't got an audi mate!
On the other hand there are thousands of Passat drivers out there that would probably disagree, and as for service, well that's down to your garage- (who i assume are British...?), my local Audi garage can't do enough for you.
Greg
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Greg,
VW were still German when I last looked and the 'service' I was referring to was VW Customer Care.
Cheers,
Barry
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Can we get back to what's in the boat? <*<
nah, what boat {-) lets here more about audis O0 O0 O0
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nah, what boat {-) lets here more about audis O0 O0 O0
when we dial 999 in my area we get the BMW service centre.
Destroyer42
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it aint audis fault that bmw,s keep breakin down O0 {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) %)
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"Mercedes i spose they apeal to the people after the retro look"
Retro Look!!!!! don,t make me choke,when i said i had a Mercedes 2.9d 5 cyl,I forgot to mention that it has a Ssangyong Musso body wrapped around it,...Retro,indeed,... {-) {-) {-)
as for getting back to boats,
I know lots of boats that have Merc engines,
Wullie
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so what your saying is that the body IS retro so you had to jazz it up to bring it up to date O0 O0 O0 {-) {-) {-)
Andy
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German car manufacturers have a reputation that is second to none because they have worked for it
No, they payed for it and they are good at advertising
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PORCHE - brilliant.
Colin
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There isn't a single large car mass producer in britain that isn't really foreign owned and run- before you say 'what about Morgan, TVR, Aston etc?'- they ALL have majority or all foreign ownership.
British engineering killed itself by resting on the laurels of yesteryear- Germany had to completely rebuild itself after the war and put into place longterm plans for it's financial future, based largely on export of well engineered products- under Hitler's rule it had been proven that infrastructure, modern manufacturing techniques, mass production and qaulity control were the way forward- something that really we NEVER learnt in Britain.
German car manufacturers have a reputation that is second to none because they have worked for it and they know how to market what they have, they also know the little things that keep a customer coming back for more, and instead of the British mentality of old- 'we must strive for more customers by offering more and more diverse models' German manufacturers stick to what they're good at, and that is enough, you buy German cars with your head and not your heart, for that reason they will never go out of fashion.
Greg
Interesting to hear what you are saying Greg. It seems to me that you've forgotten the rebuilding of Germany after the war when VW were helped back into production by us to aid the their rebuilding programme. That was to our detriment because we were repaying our loans to the USA who made things difficult by insisting we repaid in full. I seem to remember that we
didn't finish payments until the eighties. You have to put things into their correct perspective. Having said that we also shot ourselves in both feet by not re-investing in both cars and bikes. Nuff said....... :-))
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As for motors, my old 94 Passat estate was fantastic, I couldnt complain and it went like a rocket. Met its demise when I accidentally drove it through my closed gates. I was going to replace it with the later version until a garage mate of mine steered me well away with "They ain't the motor they used to be old chap, leave well alone". He was right, some owners have since complained of reliability and maintenence problems. My local garage thanked me for NOT buying one.
...and mine is a 2007 model :(( It was either another Volvo or a VW Passat diesel. The latter won out because of it's fuel economy and this has proved to be superb. Unfortunately on build quality, design and driver satisfaction it's the pits. If I could turn back the clock, there would be another Volvo in the drive.
Barry M
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The old 2 litre Passat petrol engine was an absolute gem Barry, it was incredibly willing and solid as a rock. The downside was electrics, I had a couple of ignition coils go out on me... I swear they had a failure countdown chip built into them as others had experienced the same failures at around the same mileage but apart from that it was a great car. I owned it for nine years and it had done 45,000 when i bought it. A very economic car too, I don't know how they managed to do that considering how well it went. Just good design I guess.
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given the choice between a hand built British machine or an equivalent German one the Brits win every time.
Never had a tvr then?.even when they were built by hand in britain they fell to bits
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if der reichicher engineeringicher ich be as gut az ze propaganda saycher it is, ve vud haf not lozt ze var
on a serious note, mercs must be good, especially the older ones, as they are used as taxis in the middle east
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BMW are excellent cars. I have two.
I do around 30k miles a year. I tend to find the worst drivers (after white van man) are those in mundaneo's and Vectra's \ Insignia.
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as for vans, I do like the new sprinter, not driven the Vito one yet
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Possibly the most practical car I ever owned was the VW Passat estate. I have owned 3 estates, the Passat was streets ahead of the others for usable space and ease of loading.
Never owned a Volvo, so perhaps an incomplete comparison.
The most unrelaible and problematic car I ever had posession of was a 1980 VW Rabbit (Golf) Diesel in California (in 1993), it was old and had problems, but the biggest issue is that every garage refused to work on it. I think at that time diesels were a bit of a rarity in California.
The biggest problem was the the throttle would jam open and she would then accelerate very slowly in a cloud of black smoke. But if I braked hard enough the revs would drop to almost nothing and the engine would threaten to die, so then pedal to the metal, jammed throttle and off we go in another cloud. :embarrassed: :embarrassed: Not acceptable in California in the 90s. :embarrassed:
My most fun to drive and car with most charachter was, without doubt, my Mini Clubman. Also very practical for a small motor.
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BMW are excellent cars. I have two.
I do around 30k miles a year. I tend to find the worst drivers (after white van man) are those in mundaneo's and Vectra's \ Insignia.
Why's that, only ones that can pass you ? {:-{
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Why's that, only ones that can pass you ? {:-{
Because their drivers are ignorant twunts O0
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Because their drivers are ignorant twunts OK
Well thats really going to upset at least one of the moderators. %)
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I've got a VW Golf Plus ,,,The Car is Great... VW services are a joke ... Spares and Parts cost an arm and a leg ... >:-o Even buying oil from a VW dealer costs extra... and if you go any where else for a service - even a VW approved garage using VW parts and have the aproved VW stamp in your service book VW dealers will not update your records
>>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Freebooter
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Never had a tvr then?.even when they were built by hand in britain they fell to bits
No, never had a Morgan either ;D
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Had a Golf,what a pile, bought it for swmbo, ... , will never own another. Unwilling 1.8 petrol engine, massive understeer and roll if caned, fuel consumption lousy, iffy electrics and to cap it all, VW service... got to be the worst I have experienced.
Her Honda is like a breath of fresh air after that thing.
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I own a BMW Mini Cooper S. Unlike a lot of other modern cars, it's an enthusiasts car, so lots of info on servicing, plenty of third party companies supplying bits to keep dealer prices down.
I've had it seven years now, and it still looks and drives nice. Great build quality combined with snappy looks and decent handling.
On the minus side, like most modern cars, it's too heavy (over a ton in weight!!) and is a bit thirsty around town. The later car with it's direct injection turbocharged lump is a lot more efficient, but I would miss the whine of the Eaton blower, and I'm not that keen on the looks of the R56 mini.
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Your"BMW" Mini is built in Britain, only the name is BMW.The car was developed by ex Rover Workers. The reason it is big and heavy is because fat Germans couldn't get into the old Mini. After Rover was bought by the Germans as a very succesful Manufactorer, the Germans destroyed the Company by insisting on their style of Management. They installed Germans in all supervisory posts, built a Restuarant serving German food(which was flown in fresh every day) solely for the Germans.This little luxury cost the Company 1.6 Million pounds a year. After ruining the Company, they Asset Stripped it, keeping the Mini for themselves and selling Land Rover and Jaguar to Ford.
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One question Nordsee- why?
Why would one of the best (behind Audi %)) car makers in the world see itself needing to destroy Rover {-) {-) {-) Thats like Man Utd buyong all the shares in a sunday league football club then absolving the team to advance their business!!!!!!! {-) {-) {-)
Here's a quote from Wiki';
The car, whose first generation was designed by Frank Stephenson,[1] draws inspiration from the original Mini, which was manufactured by the British Motor Corporation and its successors from 1959 to 2000. The name of the car's brand, MINI, is all-capitalized to distinguish it from its predecessor.[2] Development of the first generation had been done between 1995 and 2001 by Rover Group in Gaydon, United Kingdom and BMW AG in Munich, Germany and was accompanied by continual contention between Rover and BMW. Especially the positioning of the car was contended. Rover wanted an economy car, whilst BMW supported a small sporting car and finally prevailed. In 1999 BMW assumed control over the whole project after BMW's CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder had left the company.[3] When BMW divested itself of Rover in 2000, BMW decided to keep the Mini project and to move the planned production of the car, from Rover's Longbridge plant,[3] the former production plant of the traditional Mini, to BMW's Oxford plant in Cowley, Oxford, United Kingdom, in what was historically the Pressed Steel Company body plant.[4]
The 2001 to 2006 model years included four hatchback models: the basic "Mini One", the diesel-engined "Mini One/D", the sportier "Mini Cooper" and the supercharged "Mini Cooper S". In 2005, a convertible roof option was added. In November 2006 BMW released a re-engineered version of the Mini which is unofficially known as the "Mk II Mini".[5] The Mk II is currently[update] available as a hatchback and a wagon (Clubman). The convertible was still based on the MK 1 until January 2009, when a Mk2 variant was launched.
The MINI is a British Car- however BMW made the right decision regarding which way to take the demographic market- imagine if it had been a tarted up City Rover like Rover wanted it to be- probably would have killed them even quicker.
I'm all for Britsh design, British building and British driving, however Rover never was, nor it seems, still is a very good car manufacturer and that's a terrible fact.
Greg
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My old 6 cyl SD1 had a shocking reputation for lousy build quality and reliability, most had engines go out on them at some point due to cracked cylinder heads. Mine was fine, I loved it and never had any problems, but thats because I didn't thrash it and changed the engine oil well before it was due each time. I think , due to my attentions, I never even needed the tappets done in 95000 miles! Then, along came the 214 series, nice little car... rubbush engine! It too suffered from cracking cylinder heads. Every one of those I looked at had oil in the engine coolant.
I don't think Rover has designed a decent engine since the 50s, the only engines which had a decent reputation were the V8 (American) or the Japanese engines fitted to some of the later models. If it hadn't been for these I think that company would have gone down the plug hole years ago.
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The k-series engine was a good engine, but was spoilt by a few design flaws, most of which were corrected during production, but too late to stop it gettign a bad reputation. It was one of the first truely optimised production engines, and if you compare the weight of that engine you might be surprised how light it is compared to some other manufacurers models.
Back in the 70's Issigonis had a project going called the 9x. The intention was to replace the Mini, it was lighter, smaller, but more spacious. It featured a far superior overhead camshaft engine, with a much improved gearbox
Although not as pretty as Issigonis' mini, with it's squared off '70's styling (ever the pragmatist), it was very far ahead of the competition.
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?super9xf.htm
(http://www.aronline.co.uk/images/super9x_01.jpg)
The whole lot got canned by the company, and we got the All-aggro and metro instead.
However there is a good mini car being designed by a British company. It's called the T2.5 and has been designed by Gordon Murray. Very interesting concept.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.ASpx?AR=242828
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Best supermini available at the moment is the Suzuki Swift sport, a proper mini for the 21st century- cute, quick, amazing handling, cheap to run and most of all a design classic- they won't be changing it in a while!
But they aren't German so I can't say any more in fear of hijacking yet another thread!!!!!!!!!
Greg
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Your safe Gregg, it's usually me that b-gg-rs up the threads!
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Dear All,
You know the one thing that puzzles me a bit, is that Germany continues to produce vehicles with unnecessarily large cc. engines - even Top Gear said this recently with some tests on some people carriers - with massive high power/performance engines. Germany being part of the EU surely tows the EU emission standards protocols??? - or is it another case of we and the French were in the EEC first so we will and can do what we like???
Regards, Bernard
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No, we and the french just havn't got the budget of VAG to produce the new tech' that they can, along with BMW- the TFSI engines are just the most amazing advance in IC engineering in the past 10 years- they use a supercharger AND a turbo, combining the two in a specific chamber PER cylinder, not a common plenum chamber- a 2.0 TFSI engine on top tune produces 200hp, and the same emmisions as a 1.6 normally aspirated engine, they have also introduced (copying BMW I might add) the auto engine cutout when the car stops which is wierd to drive at first but you soon get used to it.
However, the Audi RS6 with the same V10 as the Lambo' Gallardo, although an amazing engineering feat, and the height of discreet 'boy racer' beating, is pointless.
But i'd love one, maybe thats the point!
Greg
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Dear Greg,
I meant to say the Germans and French seem to consider that since they were in the EEC first that they can do nearly whatever they like... However...!
The two vehicles that were tested on this partic. Top Gear, were people carrier type vehicles putting out 300 + hp.. Merc. and a BMW I think they were. The consensus was that the fuel consumption was not very good, and such vehicles would be extremely expensive to tun in GB. One of these vehicles I think was a V12.
Pity BMW etc., etc., don't concentrate on making smaller but high efficiency engines that would push out more power, as opposed to large engines using lot's of fuel with emissions similar to smaller engines.
The idea these days is, I thought, to save and conserve fuel, rather than still burn lot's of it albeit with less emissions.
Regards, Bernard
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Dear Greg,
I meant to say the Germans and French seem to consider that since they were in the EEC first that they can do nearly whatever they like... However...!
The two vehicles that were tested on this partic. Top Gear, were people carrier type vehicles putting out 300 + hp.. Merc. and a BMW I think they were. The consensus was that the fuel consumption was not very good, and such vehicles would be extremely expensive to tun in GB. One of these vehicles I think was a V12.
Pity BMW etc., etc., don't concentrate on making smaller but high efficiency engines that would push out more power, as opposed to large engines using lot's of fuel with emissions similar to smaller engines.
The idea these days is, I thought, to save and conserve fuel, rather than still burn lot's of it albeit with less emissions.
Regards, Bernard
Bernard,
You got it right in the first sentence. The French, in particular, don't care how anything is done as long as it's done there way. As an otherwise charming French neighbour snorted, " We are French - we don't care what anybody else thinks".
Cheers,
Barry M
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Dear All,
You know the one thing that puzzles me a bit, is that Germany continues to produce vehicles with unnecessarily large cc. engines - even Top Gear said this recently with some tests on some people carriers - with massive high power/performance engines. Germany being part of the EU surely tows the EU emission standards protocols??? - or is it another case of we and the French were in the EEC first so we will and can do what we like???
Regards, Bernard
I think the reason for this is because there are no speed limits on the Autobahns, well there are ,but only in built-up areas, and so they need cars or vehicles that can do 220+ kms an hour. In a recent German Car TV programme they tested Electric cars and the only critisim was they could only manage 160 kms an hour. The fact that such a speed would cost you your license in any other EU Country , was not mentioned! There was actually a motion put before the EU Parliament that German Drivers should be allowed to drive as fast as they want to, as they have the experience! It was not passed !! Germans must always have the biggest car, or house, it is part of their make up.There s a saying " You never work with a German, you work for him"
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Yes, but they work for the Americans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! %)
Nordsee,
Speed is not dependant on power- it is dependant on efficiency and a good transmission setup- why BMW's have 7 forward gears on a 3.0L engine- sort the engine out, put a good transmission in and away you go.
The real reason is that these manufacturers can, so they do, and there are the people with the money out there that are willing to buy these mobile status symbols.
Greg
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Having just read this entire thread, can I just add that I own the best German car currently manufactured?
(It's a Skoda Superb.)
Andy
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Yes, but they work for the Americans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! %)
Nordsee,
Speed is not dependant on power- it is dependant on efficiency and a good transmission setup- why BMW's have 7 forward gears on a 3.0L engine- sort the engine out, put a good transmission in and away you go.
The real reason is that these manufacturers can, so they do, and there are the people with the money out there that are willing to buy these mobile status symbols.
Greg
On the other hand, all the rear-wheel drive BMW around here are sitting in driveways or abandoned because they can't cope with snow or ice. Fair weather cars only. {-)
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On the other hand, all the rear-wheel drive BMW around here are sitting in driveways or abandoned because they can't cope with snow or ice. Fair weather cars only. {-)No, it is the Drivers. They have learnt on Front wheel Drive, so cannot drive a "Real" car. Also with all the electronic aids they should be Ok. Why or why, do you need a 3 litre lump and 7 gears in a country with roads like yours?1200cc would be plenty, and 5 gears are enough for anyone
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I hear what you say. %)
Barry M
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On the other hand, all the rear-wheel drive BMW around here are sitting in driveways or abandoned because they can't cope with snow or ice. Fair weather cars only. {-)
I don't think it's the cars it's the Cr*p Drivers, last snow like this I was driving a MK2 escort and other's where driving Capr's,i Cortinas etc, these had no traction controle clever tyres ESP antilock brakes and the like and we had no problems, and mine had about the same power as a lot of BMW's have now.
Peter