Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: red181 on December 25, 2009, 10:54:20 pm
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Hi all, and Merry Christmas :-))
I have finally reached the point that I can "almost" call my Veron Huntsman 28 completed. I gained a lot of valuable help and assistance from a number of forums, primarily here, and would like to thank everyone who took the time and effort to reply to my MANY questions over the last couple of years, BIG thanks to one forum member, who kept me going through some very bad times when the boat came close to the bin, he will know the WORST recent experience!! :} without his input and experience I doubt I would have reached this point.
I call myself a relative novice in RC boat building, I have experience of 2 other RC boats, and helicopters, I have a good eye for detail, but struggle hammering a nail straight without spliting the wood or bending the nail, and I take on a project such as this, an all ply 48" boat :embarrassed: , so this thread will not drift away, I will take you right to the end, and cover all my new skills, vac forming, planking, fibreglassing, painting, electric setup, and that mystery of fast brushless, gearboxes,and props on a large scale boat. Hopefully other novices can take something from this thread.
NOW.....I saw the boat on ebay Xmas 2006, liked the look of it, and wanted something to play with as a project, so I didnt build from scratch, its a refurb, I think the recent build from Ramon is excellent, and Derek Bradley is also covering building from scratch, I do not possess the skills for that! Didnt even know at the time what the boat was.
After winning the bid, the boat arrived, it had a large Johnson motor, and a Ripmax seasprint esc, and was a runner, it looked really nice. Later I found out it was a Fairey Huntsman, and the Fairey owners club verified it was a 28, I had hoped it was the boat made famous by Sean Connery in "From Russia With Love", whilst the 28 featured as chase boats, Bond was in a Huntress, so my plan of replicating that boat failed.
It was June 07 before it came out of the attic for its first trail, very slow, but looked like it had potential!
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After its first run, everything was stripped out late Autumn 2007. Another build had taken a long time to complete, so the Huntsman lived in the attic most of the year :((
It took ages to strip the layers and layers of thick paint. I wanted it back to wood. It was very well made, and very sturdy. Paint removal was with paint stripper, electric sander, scraper, dremell, and took an age to do. After all the horrible paint was off, It had to be washed down several times to get rid of any paint stripper traces.
Mistake 1/ starting to paint when weather is getting cold!
Its now late October 2007, I build/paint in what is best described as a shed/garage. Not very warm. I used Halfords Primer, the yellow one with filler. Goes on ok, you can see what you are doing, but it kept cracking after It was left some time, and the filler build up wasnt that good. I carried on, and painted several primer coats, flatting with 600 wet and dry, then 1000 wet and dry, very time consuming and labour intensive, but a good prep here means a good finish later.
Decided to use Plasticoat paint, its readily available and reasonable price for a large tin. The blue is a very good match for the Fairey colour, and white is nice bright sharp white. Several coats, process as above, flatting between each coat. Then I used a bodyshop rubbing/flatting polish, (G3), very hard work, but worth the effort!, then T-Cut, then polish up with a nice creamy polish (advantages of working in a car dealer, loads of polish products available!
Should not have ignored the warning signs of cracking primer!!!
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AS you can see the roof has come off, it was damaged in the paint removal process, and I was unsure if I wanted to keep the large access panel, it was ugly.
Its now mid 2008, and I had started a couple of jobs on the boat to keep me interested, to break up the boring jobs. I decided to plank the interior, using some real boat photos for reference. Although not 100% realistic, I wanted a nice shiny finish on the interior decking, and used clear varnish to get the finish, after a number of sanding sealer coats. I rubbed each coat (approx 5) with 1000 wet and dry to eliminate that horrible treacle finish when its dawbed on too thick, and used evergreen plastic strips to give the finish between the planks like the real Huntsman.
Back to the cracking that I ignored, the blue paint on the cabin sides has now got very fine cracks, only visible close up, and after much dilema, I decided to get it back to wood >:-o >:-o and start again, incase it got worse over time. Subsequently found out, plasticoat and Halfords primer dont get on, so all the primer has to come off, and start all over again! , also, painting in the cold probably didnt help, although 6 months has elapsed, is the wood shrinking?? maybe another problem that wasnt evident when the boat was covered in thick red dulux!
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so not much more happened in 2008, got myself a RC Orca Jaws boat, that was a really fun build, that coupled with full time job, RC helicopter project and 3 kids didnt really leave much spare time :-)
The window frames are made from plasticard, cut out by hand in one piece, and seperate tiny rivets, each one drilled and glued, then they had to come off for the repaint <:( on the refit, I used a different method, much easier and more "scale like", more on that later. so now the first "new skill". I was persuaded to fibreglass the new roof, and cabin sides, to stop the cracking. I resisted for ages, even decided to plank the deck, but eventually gave in and did the fibreglassing.
So the planking (yes I know, all over the place here, this is the back to front way I did things!). Never done planking before, I tried pencil lines, looked rubbish, tried a wood scriber, rubbish, so the only way to get it right is real planks. Photos of real Huntsmans showed the planks to have gone very pale with sun bleaching, and the caulking to be a grey colour, so off we go.
The sides of the deck where pretty easy, but at the bow, how was I going to bend the wood? Could have just gone straight, but it would not have been correct. Tried to get the joggle effect, but that was just too hard.. So bending planks, tried to steam them, soak them in the bath for days, heat over gas ring, etc etc etc, nothing worked. Eventually, got a piece of MDF, cut it in half, in a circular cut similar to the radius of the bow planks, split the 2 pieces the width of a plank, nailed them to another piece of MDF, soaked the planks in boiling water, and forced them into the homemade jig, left to dry for a few days, and then using small clamps and wood glue fitted them!. This took 2 weeks as it was such a slow process, fitting one plank, them having to wait for it to go off and stick hard, as the next plank has to be bent against it. The grey caulking is grey card from a stationary supplier, that too had to be glued into place and left to harden before the next plank, I was now getting real fed up!
not the best of pics, but the planking is on, but now to get the weathered effect. I used a wash, made up of a combination of grey and white thinned out paint, it gave exactly the finish I wanted, but all that hard work with the caulking is now lost, stupid me :embarrassed:the caulking has soaked up the wash and disappeared, back to the drawing board!!
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Its at this point, in a real low mood, that I decide to HATE the roof access panel, so off it came!!! ( the new roof that is, it had even been painted %%
The roof on the Huntsman is quite a complex shape, and the curvatures just dont allow a one piece roof, Ramons build explains this, so its off to my mate's who is an expert carpenter, and modeller, he fits a 2 piece roof, with a nice accurate roof overhang, I watched in awe as he did this, its great to see a craftsman at work!
I didnt want to lose the wonderful large area in the cabin, so he talks me into removing the rear of the cabin and creating a different access point. A great idea, that works wonderfully. I can now make a detailed dashboard, cabin door etc off the boat, painted and fitted, and I use 3 small neodyme magnets to hold it in place. These are very cheap, and very strong, that panel is not coming off when the boat is in use, and all the electrics can now be mounted in the lovely dry cabin. I planned to use a sound unit, and thought this was an ideal place for a speaker, a ready made sound box, this is not required now, you will see why later! :-))
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so now its getting a bit messy, there are a few things going on, the roof needs finishing, its 2 piece, so I have to lose the joint, the access at the back needs the dashboard making, I have painted the hull, blue underneath, and white sides, and the rubbing strips are finished.
Mistake 2/ waterline is wrong >:-o >:-o >:-o, don't know how I got this so wrong (its actually right when on the plane!) but I cannot paint it again, that will have to come later.
Dashboard and door panel is plasticard 2mm thick, lovely to paint after all the prep wood needs, its light, and can be glued. Instrument panel is a copy of a real boat, red and green throttles are pins, instruments are the becc ones, and the dial bezels are portholes painted up silver. The neo magnets are sunk into the surrounding area where the panel was cut out, and resined in so they don't move or fall out, I expect this boat to get a rough time in high seas!, so nothing can fall off!
Back to the fibre glassing, very light fibreglass cloth from delux materials, and a nice light resin to go with it, no point using the heavy halfords type, boat will get too heavy, and too much work rubbing it down. I have prepared the wood with 600 grit, 600 wet and dry using a block all the time, them down to 1000 and 1200 wet and dry, its lovely and smooth. Resin was used in the joint to flat it up. The cloth is the sort aero boys use for wing coverings, and the intention is to hold all the wood together, and on the cabin sides, to stop the cracking. The planking has been done, another job in the wrong order, so glassing the sides is a very hard job now, got to protect the planking....
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A very interesting build thred, Red181 and I shall follow it with great interest. :-)) I can see why you got so frustrated at times but it must have been worth it as the boat is looking good. :-))
Derek.
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ok, if anyone has not done glass fibre, its easy :-)) I have done it twice now, you have to get the resin on before it starts going off, in nice light coats, not dolloped on, I use an old plastic card to apply.
When hard, a sanding block on the edges removes the excess cloth. I now prepared the sides and roof. Filler primer, not halfords due to previous experience, using Hycote. Couple of coats, then its time to start rubbing down, with 400 wet and dry and a sanding block, not without block, as then you get all manner of undulations, 600, then 1000. I put some fairey liquid in the water, nice and easy to use, you can actually hear when you are nearly there with the finish, as the scraping sound stops! when I think its ready, light primer coat, inspection, and repeat the process until happy. Good preparation means no need to start piling on a load of filler, that just means hard work rubbing down, and I am always concerned that the filler could crack if the boat is knockled about after paint.
About 7 coats later, its time for the top coat, plasticoat white for roof, and blue for cabin sides, as per Fairey boat colour schemes.. The process is repeated, coat of paint, 600 and 1000 wet dry, then another coat, approx 5 coats, letting every coat dry properly. After final coat, G3 rubbing compound, and then t cut and final polish, thats why several coats are required, G3 and t cut remove paint, and I don't want to go through the paint at this stage. The finish is now silky smooth, with a very nice finish and reflection.I used low tack masking tape so that previously painted areas are not damaged
New window frames now, cut again from 1 piece of plasticard, very fiddly! cut the inside first, then the outside so they keep the shape. I then got assistance, and drilled from the inside using a 2mm drill bit a hole but stopped just before the hole penetrated. Painted using aluminium humbrol paint again from inside, the paint now fills the holes, and gives the appearance from the outside of rivet heads! ;), its only when you run your finger along the plastic that you find there are no rivet heads there, just an optical illusion (thanks Peter!) Since its painted from the inside, the clear plasticard frames are now nicely finished from the outside. I had to lightly rub down the edge of the cabin sides they are glued on to make the glue adhere, and used a glue from delux materials, Plastic friendly, as super glue and cyno would bring the aluminium paint off.
The front frame on the Huntsman has no rivets, Its either an opening or escape window. Same process to make, but a second thinner strip to replicate the real thing.
A visit to a local window tint company, and an offcut of 50% tint, applied to the clear plasticard used for glazing, and hey presto, nice tinted windows!
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As you can see, I have done this build in all the wrong order, favouring the jobs that interst me, now........the job from Hell! >:-o, the windscreen!
I didn't want to use thin plastic card, thinking it would be too flimsy when the boat is going fast, so decided to make my own. First attempts where to use 2mm plastic sheet, the sort available from DIY shops for sink splashbacks etc. I made a paper template, then transferred to thicker card. A support was fitted to the roof, its visible on the last picture, the idea being that the screen would "lean" on this, and nobody would be able to tell that behind the screen was higher than the front side, very clever, (not my idea I must add!)
Cut the plastic sheet, a real nasty job as the plastic heats up when being cut and is horrible to work with. I then tried bending it freehand, heating over a gas ring, failure :((, in hot water, failure >:-o, and in the oven another failure >:-o. Time to do it properly. Using now a cut up biscuit tin, I transferred the card template to this, and made the windscreen shape (its a very complex shape ). I then made from the previously used MDF a wood form to fit inside the biscuit tin shape to hold it rigid, now I have a template to make the windscreen on! :-))
Went to Argos and invested £10 in a heat gun, and now had controlled heat on the next piece of plastic sheet. Unfortunately, this didn't work, the tolerance between hot enough to bend, and too hot that is bubbled was too close, but I knew I was on to something here! Next attempt was with Lexan 2mm sheet, which was donated from my friend and motivator!, don't know where he got it, but Lexan worked. Using heatgun on low setting, it heated up just right, and bent over the template. 2nd attempt was fine, however, next year I plan to make another, as I know I can now do a better job. B & Q has plastic "u" profile strips that fitted over the top edge real snug, and I then cut thin strips of plasticard (off cuts that where for sale at the Warrington show from SHG Marine), a couple of other strips on the screen, and I have the screen frame, inside and outside of the lexan. These where then painted and polished up in Steel colour metalcote paint, and using the same window tint film, this was applied. Now you might ask why tint the windows, it hides any glazing imperfections, makes it harder to see inside the cabin (So I don't have to fit an interior) and some of the real boats had this, I think its a nice touch, its not as dark in the flesh as in the photos, but I would like to do the windscreen again.
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Now the windscreen is almost done, its matter of securing it in place, and a way that facilitates easy removal in event of it being broken, previous photo shows 2 small bolts, on the outside I made a plate they screw into, from thin brass sheet, and soft soldered 2 brass nuts on. This plate will be hidden by the trade mark Air scoops that Huntsman boats have.
Mistake 3/ when drilling holes for fittings on the roof, I used a blunt drill, on a low speed, and damaged the roof paint finish as it "dragged" the fibreglass cloth. In normal light, its pretty much none visible, but I know its there and it annoys me, another job for next summer, repaint the roof! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hatch is made from plasticard, roof rails are long kebab sticks, dipped in exterior woodstain several times (also used this paint for the edges of the exterior deck, to give a nice contrast, and a finish that will be easy to touch up when its had a few knocks), and you can see the plates that secure the screen, painted in blue
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Red181
She is a credit to you, she looks superb.
Bob
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Next project, VAC - FORMING!! :}
I wanted to have good quality realistic chrome (preferably) air intakes, these are hand beaten on the real boat, and for me are a major part of the model, as they are very rarely replicated realistically. I tried cutting up various plastic chrome painted toys, cups, jars, tried cutting up backs of various spoons, and other kitchen implements, nothing worked. Even tried searching work and home (and other peoples homes!!) for something that would be an air scoop. I even gave up on the chrome finish, and thought I would settle for white, as some boats have this, but nothing worked :((
Now, remember the craftsman friend???? well, on a visit to see him, he produced 2 (left and right) hand carved air vents, specially made for me to stop me moaning on and on about them!! :}, and he suggested, why not vac form? After weeks of resisting, I build my vac former, and went to work, believe me, its EASY!!, you can vac form virtually anything!, look out for my seats later!.
Made a box, drilled loads of hole out of the top, fitted the hose from the vacuum into a hole on the side, duck tape around everything to make it air tight. Then made a frame to fit on top, stapled a sheet of plasticard onto it, stuffed it in the oven till the plasticard went "wobbly", turned on the vacuum, and put the hot pasticard over the 2 wood vents, hey presto, vac formed air scoops!!!!
I have now made loads, each set getting better!. Now, painted a set in hycoate chrome finish, and they looked superb, BUT.... when wet, the chrome paint got tarnished, so have to rethink the finish. For now, I have made a set in white, and am currently doing another set in clear plasticard, and will pant from the inside in Alclad chrome paint. This paint is specially developed for painting the lexan and polycarbonate bodyshell of RC cars from the inside, so I think (after seeing some test samples) it should work a treat. The rivet effect will be as per the same process that the window frames got
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So now its looking all pretty, (again in the complete wrong order!) its time to get this (now getting heavy!) boat running :-)
SET UP 1
Graupner 700 BB turbo 12v, direct drive, 19.2v nimh, various props, best was 50mm "x", Ripmax seasprint esc.
Performance acceptable, but didn't give me grin factor, looked pretty on the water, but just didn't hit the sweet spot. After 20 boring minutes on Newsham Liverpool, and GPS showing 14mph, slower than my Aerokits Fireboat, its back to the drawing board, that was April 2009.
SET UP 2
Finally listened to advice that was being given all year, gearbox. Now, the gearbox has been custom made, and is a work of art! :} (not made by me, remember I cant knock a nail in straight!). It is aluminium, and uses MFA gears, with belt drive. The MFA website has a gear ratio and belt size calculator. I wanted to test 2:1, and as the gears are cheap, also tried 1.5:1 4mm shaft was used originally, and now used a 9.6v graupner motor, everything else was same spec.
Boat ran faster (unfortunately didn't have GPS) but more importantly was stone cold (it is water cooled) and ran for 15 mins longer, now approx 35 mins flat out, a definite improvement, but still not fast enough.
I really contradict myself, want the boat to look as realistic and authentic as possible, but want ballistic way over scale speed! :}
The 9.6v and 8.4v Graupner motors are very hardwaring, and you can over volt them easily, these 2 have a much higher rev than the 12v, which was pedestrian with the gearbox
The big job here was setting the prop angle. The original Veron plans are set up for IC, meaning the angle of the prop is far too great. It was a real bad job to get the old motor mount out (see chisel!) but once out a pretty easy job to reset another, all set in resin, and the motor mount screwed into blind nuts, this fast set up needs to be accurate and secure, no need now for a coupling, everything is dead straight, eliminating weak plastic universal joints that just eat your amps up :D
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Well done Paul,
This has livened up the Xmas break for the Huntsman appreciation society here in Leicester !
finding this really interesting, nice to see a bit of thinking 'outside the box' - chopping a great whole through the cockpit bulkhead - genius !
and the vac formed air scoops are a really clever idea.
I nearly went the clear plasticard/Alclad route on my Swordsman window fames, ended up the usual spraying the Alclad on the outside method
and its already starting to tarnish etc with water damage.
Any more info/pics of the gearbox? - looks the business.
The offers still open, anytime you want a large lake where you can really open her up!
Regards Paul
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Hi Zippy! , thanks for comments, although I am surprised its been a quiet thread given the boat and topics being covered, will def come and see you, but when its past the "test" stage, at present being a coward in small lakes so I don't have to wait ages for it to float in!
Now on with the pantomime! :}
so the prop angle has been set, ( much shallower angle than was already installed, meaning cog of motor will be lower.) new motor mount in, water pickup already fitted, and for now leaving the original rudder, The rudder servo is the original sanyo one, not expecting anything special from that. Using (from prop end) silicon bearing at bottom, this lubricates with water, ballrace at top, ballrace at entry point into motor mount, and at exit point, so the prop is supported by 3 bearings, 4mm shaft only because I have a few 4mm props to test with, and thats what was in the boat O0. Now, an oil tube filler has been soldered on the shaft, This is a pretty simple job, I do not like to fill the shaft with grease, on a fast application, the grease will just "tunnel"around the shaft and serve no purpose at all, and after time will harden. The only part of the shaft that requires lubrication is where the bearings are, and one of them is self lubricating when wet.
Mistake 4/ never get distracted when testing! I took the boat early one July sunday morning to New Brighton. This lake, on the tip of the Wirral Peninsula is superb for testing. Not that big, but raised sides, so you are not having to worry about shallow water, or a long reach down to get the boat in the water, also, being right on the coast, there is usually a breeze, so in the event of failure it will float in quick :}, and if the worse happens, its shallow enough to wade out!, you can see I am confident of success!
After a few minutes razzing around the lake, a couple of club member's arrived and started talking. I was changing the 9.6v graupner to an 8.4v one, chatting, put the boat back in the water, couple of circuits, then brought it in (by the way, not much if any difference between 9.6 and 8.4). Started to pack up as I didint want to run a large fast boat on a small lake with others, and at the time I was on 40mhz, didn't want to run risk of any frequency clash. I noticed that the cabin windows where steamed up, now for anyone that is familiar with old cars, that ususally means damp inside, in this case, water leak!!
Took the dash panel off, and the cabin was 3 inches deep in water!, stupid boy had left the water cooling hose off in the motor swap, and the boat had merrily been filling itself up with water! <:(, that was the end of the receiver, it never worked again,
Next project was the mast. I wanted a removeable one, so, if it need to be removed for transportation or storage, or it got broken, It could be replaced. Using a hollow piece of plastic tube from a discarded kite (will it was after the tube went missing!) I fitted it into the base of the cabin using another hollow piece of ally tube. A small bolt through both keeps it in place. Hollow, as the mast has a nav light, and I wanted the wire inside, this has a small plug so it can be disconnected if the mast is removed. To paint it, it was primed, then dipped several times into the exterior wood stain, thus no brush marks! :-))
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some real nice cosmetic moments now, the rear seat was made from a box section from plasticard, and the cushions are carved and sanded from balsa (not by me, you know who!), painted matt white, sanded with 2000 grit, and given a slight bit of weathering with acrylic pencils (white and grey) my arty daughter does have a use after all! :D.
Front fender was bought from Scale Hobbies, it wasnt in stock I took the boat to him, he smiled and said I will phone you when its made! Dont know to this day where he got it, but he is a top bloke, it fits perfect!. Chrome fittings are very ellusive, I got some aeronaut ones, I think it was from someone in Cormnwall? just cant remember, but the cleats and davits where very hard to find. Rear corners are just plastic card from an easter egg package, covered with chrome sticky back plastic, and dressmakers pins for the rivets (overscale, but look nice!) Chrome anchor winch and chrome (well nickel plated) anchor from Scale Hobbies again.
Rear ladder is made from brass tube, with brass rod. Steps are hardwood then stained and varnished. I was quite proud of the ladder as it involved a fair bit of soldering, and was very fiddly, putting the tube on the rod, solder, fit the step, then the rod again, solder, and so on, then all masked up for painting, 4 small washers wher the rod goes into the transom (nautical terms now eh! getting the hang of this boat thing! :D)
NAMING OF BOAT!!
THe lettering are from a company on Fleabay, I have used them a few times, he basically does anything you want, and is next day turn around, excellent. I repliated the font used on most of the Huntsman I was copying, and its the nickname of my daughter, so it means something to me! I think little touches like this personalise the boat. I fgot 5 sets for less than a fiver, different sizes and colours, this was the best
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Back to the set up then.
Still wasn't getting the hairs on the back of my neck to stand up!, after 5 or 6 runs, august time, I decided I wanted better, so sold some helicopter stuff on fleabay to fund a brushless project. I did a LOT of research, and info is very hard to find, so I hope this is of benefit to others. I cannot say this is the best set up, it probably isn't, and even now I have not got the right set up, but weather, family, job etc are very time consuming and its difficult to devote time to testing, also, paypal is empty!!
Most info for brushless is for very light racing boats, this boat is now over 6kg, fat old girl! :-), so covering different forums, nobody actually came out and said I have the answer, so perhaps a bit of trail blazing here. I had settled on a feigio motor, 540xl, 10 turns, after trawling forums for a month, this motor seemed to give the acceptable spec, but it was to be very much trial and error. It seems that more KV on a brushless motor, less torque, and I need both! On the day that I was about to buy, I did a final look at Ebay, and found an Align 600l 1640 kv motor, usually retailing the £80 mark, never used, mine for £25.00!!, what a steal!. This motor had been suggested by two people but was out of my league price wise. Its an outrunner, but also has an outer can. I have used Align before with helis, it is a favoured choice, so quality and reliability are good, however its intended for a 500 (large) size RC Helicopter, which has substantially different uses. This was couple with a Castle Creations Barracuda 80amp forward/reverse esc. Expensive, but on sale with Overlander, and I had sold 3 heli's, so the cash was there(just!)
SET UP 3
THe Align motor, 19.2v nimh, 2:1 ratio, 50mm prop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yitqLxoSIJs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yitqLxoSIJs)
Unfortunately the batteries had started to go off, and the lake is a bit small, I was scared of hitting the sides, but everything ran stone cold, so changed the prop to 52.5mm, it went faster, but did not get on film unfortunately
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Red181,
Can't understand why there has been no comment on your build thread as I think it is great and have been following it avidly :-)). I see that it has been viewed 299 times to date so, the interest appears to be there even if there are no comments {:-{. Personally, I find your change to brushless, etc., interesting as this is still a route I am considering with my Precedent Huntsman.
Your boat looks superb and the action shots show how worthwhile it has all been. :-)
Keep up the good work.
Derek.
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thanks Derek! unfortunately I don't have the woodworking skills you posses, so cant start a build from scratch. My other 2 boats where also refurbs like this one. As you can probably tell, I enjoy the fiddly cosmetic things very much, such as getting the Fairey logos on the 2 mugs on top of the dashboard! :}
Short post for now, (family duties!) after reading back, I have not really posted much detail about how I arrived at the motor/esc/prop set up, kind of brushed over it, and it probably deserves a bit more attention. I am very lucky, the friend who mentored me through this build, had quite a few props, different sizes, shapes etc, and without this I could not have made such progress. Now as a relative novice, I had not realised how important the prop is, in terms of amp draw, resulting in heat, or overheating :embarrassed:, power to move the boat and efficiency, in terms of run time.
If I use my other boat as an example, Areokits Fireboat 36". The best "cheap" prop was an "x" plastic racing prop, probably the most common in use, 45mm. This gave an acceptable performance/run time/heat. After reading some information provided by Mr Zippy on this forum, I borrowed a cleaver style 4 blade prop. The difference was astonishing, run time improved, less heat (same set up could now run without water cooling, and for me more importantly it went faster. From a cosmetic point, a nice 4 blade brass prop will always look nicer than a plastic one. I bought it from propshop. There have been a number of posts asking if they are still trading, well they definitely are, I think they trade under the name of Swan. It cost about £18.00, expensive compared to £3.00 plastic ones, but once you are past the testing stage, worth the money, no horrible solder joints, nicely balanced, and very smooth, trust me, why spend a fortune on everything else and ignore the thing that actually moves the boat :-))
So, when I have arrived at what I think is the best prop for the Huntsman, I need to find something else to sell on fleabay, and last years kids Xmas pressies are calling to me..... :}
Ok, so you might be thinking, well borrow again, its 4mm shaft, but... there was a problem. After a number of test runs, the shaft gear started to slip on the shaft, to the point that it stuck, almost fused on. Closer inspection also showed that the motor was running hotter than I had realised, the aluminium mount and gearbox was acting as a heatsink and fooling me, so the 52.5mm prop that I had settled on was too big matter how tight the grub screws where, it just kept slipping after 2 runs, then I noticed an imbalance occurring on the shaft, it was bending, after the gear, like a whip effect, more on this later :-))
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Red,
This is a great thread, keep it up!
Ian :-))
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Red,
Absolutely fascinating good job mate can't wait to hear more......... :-))
Roy
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I have been watching this from the beginning, and it has been a great build / refurb (seems more build to me) thread. It really looks the biz (I'm watching Derek's build as well) But what got me big time (wait for it) as I was reading last night, was the home built vac form machine !!!!!!!! how simple/easy/bl**dy clever/ why had no one come up with something like that before. Guess where I was this morning (until the cold got to much) building my own one (build log as soon as fingers thaw out).
Congratulations (on build and vac form machine)
:-))
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Thanks Phil, just a quick note on the vac forming, I was TOLD to get on with doing that for weeks!! Never thinking how easy it would be. I have noticed that different plasticard gets different results, and you have to catch the card at the right moment, it goes floppy, then wobbly! :} in the oven, if you wait too long it then melts! (not good if that happens as there is that tell tale smell lingering on every meal for the next couple of days!, and comments of "you and your b****y projects and toys!!)
More cosmetic work, next are the seats. I tried making them from balsa, plasticard etc etc, but they just kept looking like homemade dolls house furniture. Now, one of my stupendous moments, I took a visit to a couple of car boot sales, and got hold of a plastic kids dumper truck for a couple of quid. I had looked for something with the correct size, and shape seats in the cab. Originally I wanted both forward and rear facing seats, and got to work cutting out the seats from the toy truck. I then stuck them back to back, and vac formed a few sets (told you it was easy, if you do it, you end up vac forming all sorts of useless things just for the practise, all of a sudden Easter eggs have a new lease of life,, well at least the wrapping does! ;)).
However, I decided to use just forward facing it seemed to look better. For the seat mounts, I made rails from balsa, but they didnt look quite right, and I kept studying pics on google images and like the sort of retro early style of seats that where on there, so in my second stupendous moment, I used the plastic things that you get from an old fashioned chandler, that you poke a towel into to keep it on a wall, if you know what I mean. Painted in humbrol chrome, and glued in place. The driver seat is on velcro, I take it off to get the cover off the motor
Huntsman logo was from Barry Sullivan model lettering, I sent him a pic of the font, I made the bugle/horn shape that goes behind the lettering from the sticky back plastic used previously. Nav lights fitted (chrome plated of course :-), a cabin light has been fitted, Fairey flag from BECC, and you see that the vents are now white, wating for new chrome alclad painted ones, put on with thin double sided tape
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Enjoying your build thread enormously, Paul. :-)) I would appreciate a photo of the rear underside of the boat showing prop, etc., if you have one.
When you have time can you go into more detail about the vacforming as I think that I must have a go at it. O0
Derek.
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So on with the running set up.
Well, the shaft was bent, it would appear that the torque of the motor was creating some sort of whip effect, to the end of the shaft protruding after the gear and motor mount. It was a real bad job to get it off, as it had been slipping quite a bit (good news being some of that all important speed was being lost :}). The shaft was badly scored, and the aluminium motor mount had been fooling me regarding the motor temp, it was running hotter than I had thought as the mount had been acting as a heatsink. This was found out by accident, after a run, the motor was felt to be cold, but I was only handling the motor can. 10 mins later I held the mount, it was still very warm!, so the 52.5mm "x" prop was too big for this set up, for now!
We decided to change the shaft to 5mm, but keep the original outer shaft to avoid changing it and having to reset the drive train. This meant that SHG where called upon to supply new bearings, (see page 45 of their catalogue http://www.shgmodels.com/acatalog/). We changed to glacier bearings, oil/water lubricated, they look like a sleeve going on the shaft, top bearing was a closed ballrace, new ballraces (x2) in the mount, and then an additional support to the end of the shaft, again ballraced. The gears where drilled and tapped so now using 3 grubscrews instead of 1 on the motor gear, and 5 on the shaft gear, this set up was not going to bend or slip anymore!
Thank goodness for Peter my craftsman, I was close to forgetting the whole thing, but glad he pushed me on, and did the drilling, tapping, bearing fitments, and made the aluminium support for the shaft (Ta mate!! :-)))
There has been some science applied to the findings, I can recommend if you are testing, don't go alone, another pair of eyes are very helpful to document, film, photo and advise (remember the water tube being left off, would not have happened if I had a sailing buddy!) Peter has a hand held GPS, very small unit, size of a mobile phone. We put this in the boat on most of the tests, on my previous Fireboat build it was invaluable to achieving the set up. It records a number of positions, set by the user, and "flags" them on a file compatible with Google earth. When uploaded to Google earth, you see the flags, the time of each flag, numbered, and the speed (user set up parameters) so there is no guess work. How many times have we said to each other "well it looked faster!". Unfortunately you cannot see it from the attached photo, but we are able to see if the boat is accelerating quick, is the top speed dropping off, and what specific changes are made when swapping the props (remember I said how important the prop is!). I have a hand held digital temp sensor, so could record accurate temp settings, and we also had an ammeter to record amp draw holding the boat. Using this information, its easy to determine what set up is the best, assuming that the time is recorded when changing props etc.
I also had access to my several props, and pictured is a sample of the different styles we tried. If you are in a club, beg or borrow a loan of different props to test with before going to unnecessary expense, I think at one point I had the loan of props off 5 different boats, excluding my own!
The google earth map shows how rubbish I am at getting a straight line!
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To give an idea of what I mean by "cutting" the water, I have attached a pic of the boat making a tight 90 degree turn (see the water behind the boat). The boat is still bow up on a slight plane, but its sitting in the water, not skating over it like a car drifting. A racing hull would probably skate, but a deep v hull is in the water, which makes it ideal for rougher water. At New Brighton (before the damned Swans arrived) on the same day I was able to do figure of eights, and when I crossed the centre of the eight it was quite exciting getting the boat to jump its own wake!
Derek cant say its perfect, but here you have an example of how good its handling (will cover vac forming again later! by the way), its not rolling over too far either, probably more by luck than judgement !! :}
Timewise we are now at September 2009, and approaching a quiet period due to lack of funds!. Round about this time, after only a few short tests, it was time to go Lipo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. It was my birthday so I invested in 2 x 3 cell 5000mah packs from China, Hobbyking to be exact. The esc was from Overlander in UK, and to recall was a Castle Creations 80amp Barracuda. I am going to stress a point here. The service from Overlander is superb.I always prefer to support a UK shop in preference to overseas online, I am very sad about the demise of our modelshops, over the past few years I have lost 3 just on Wirral <:(
Now You get what you pay for, buy cheap, get cheap. I helped a friend try and set up a Chinese cheapo esc, and it was horrible, all the things we dread, poor start up, poor reverse control etc etc (I know not all are like this, but it was very cheap!). The Barracuda like any of the Castle Creations esc's can be set up using audible control, control card, or for another tenner, you can buy a pc link lead, and set it up there, its so easy once you have installed the programme. Reverse is adjustable, if you want to limit the power, start up can be soft if required, and various running set ups can be set. Low voltage cut off (essential for lipo), low signal etc etc.
It was on a late sept test, that I once again ignored warning signs, it was the first test of the Barracuda esc. I was getting a stuttering when running, and put it down to the packs, Wrong! The esc was faulty, it blew up (literally) and was the best smoke demonstration I have seen, want black smoke in your smoke generator, let you esc blow all its fets off!. Here is where Overlander come in with great service. It was returned for inspection, fearing the worst, user error (although I know it wasn't anything I had done) I was ready to pay the nominal repair fee, as Castle escs can be fixed, not like the Chinese stuff!, but no need to worry, Overlander offered a full refund inc postage, as they where out of stock, how good is that :-)).
After some communication with Castle direct (moaning, I am good at that!) I got a good deal on the new model 120amp Hydra esc that was replacing the Barracuda, so all ends well on the esc front,. In an effort to protect it I have fitted a MAXI blade 50amp fuse , with a 100 amp blow rating, but can only do it to the battery side of the circuit, unless someone can advise accordingly, as a brushless motor is a 3 phase motor, 3 wires, you cant fit a fuse to the motor side of the esc?? You can see the difference between a standard blade fuse and a maxi one, got loads of amps to push through thisset up, even using 10 gauge wiring, don't want anything to overheat. The lipo packs cope with massive 5.5mm bullets, that takes some serious soldering to get a 5.5mm bullet on the other end!
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Thanks, Paul. Hope mine will, eventually, look and perform as well as yours. :-))
Derek.
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So we are almost up to present day now!
When the Barracuda esc failed, it was a VERY short run on 6 lipos cells. Whilst waiting for the exchange esc, I decided to invest in a pair of 2 cell 5000mah packs (ebay), to run in another boat, but I have since decisded after much forum reading that although the motor and esc are up to 6 cells, maybe
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Hi Paul
I'm very much enjoying your trials and tribulations with you Huntsman, thanks for sharing your story it has been very interesting and informative, and I'm sure we can all learn a lot from your experiences.
I have a vested interest as I'm about to start restoring my own Huntsman that was built from the 34" Precedent kit that I was kindly given by a fellow club member. The boat is in pretty good shape but needs some work to bring it back up to scratch.
Your boat looks beautifully finished and you've paid great attention to detail. I love your gearbox that looks brilliant :-)) My Huntsman probably will not have the same amount of detail but I would like it to have a good finish and most important good performance.
Phil.
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thanks Phil just ask if you need anything, I am certainly no expert but will share any of my mistakes or triumphs with you!
Now, last post, dont know what happened there!.
Anyway, awaiting the exchange esc, I spend a lot of time of other forums that are dedicated to fast electric, and the feeling was that with 6 cells, although the spec of the motor and esc are up to that many cells, I may be asking a bit too much of this heavy old girl. I also have a couple of rc helis, which although are infrequently used, are way over due new batteries, lipos, and only 6 weeks or so ago I was informed by a friend that a chinese seller on fleabay was having a sale, so inspite of all my previous ramblings about chinese ebay sellers, I got some, and also 2 x 2 cell 5000mah packs, so the Huntsman can run on 5 cells instead of 6. It also gives me options to get my Fireboat running on lipo instead of the tired nimhs I have bee using, so it was an early Christmas present.
Going back to buying overseas,. you can probably gather I have had a bad experience. One of the 3 cell lipos arrived with a dead cell >:-o, like I said you get what you pay for, Chinese customer service is a different world to that we enjoy here in UK, or any European and American seller come to think of it. They just dont get it!. I ended up sending the pack back, it cost 1/2 the price of the battery in postage, and 6 weeks!!!! of constant perstering, emails. , complaints on their own forum, to get things sorted, it was a very bad experience, so buyer be warned! ( it was Hobbyking), that was just my experience, so it is your own choice, but check out their own website forum!!! :} full of customer complaints, but that said.................they are very cheap, worth the risk? probably yes on cheaper items with low postage costs.
Gearbox ready to run with 5cells, Maxi fuse, and 2:1 ratio, Hydra esc, then 1.5: 1 ratio, you can just see the difference in the gear size, unfortunaltelt the pic with batteries isnt that clear
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gearbox is fully adjustable, when fitting, the small side bolts are left loose, and the 4 bolts mount to hull are loose, this aligns everything up, then all tightened up. The shaft support also has a floating bearing, so this finds its own centre before being tiightened, then the motor is set for belt tension, which is quite loose. Ther is also an option to change the face plate to go back to a brushed 700 motor, and also to go back to direct drive, should I want to.
I am very lucky to have had this made for me, and cannot thank the maker enough :-))
I have attached as link to the motor, for info, as these motors appear from time to time on fleabay, but in RC helicopter sections, particularly Align T-Rex 500 helicopters
http://www.align.com.tw/shop/index.php?cPath=22_67&language=en
http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_67&products_id=1383
And the esc
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hi there
thats a lovely huntsman ya got.
i use to own a huntsman but not as good as yours,i also took the brushless route
with some good results,
i used a hobbywing seaking esc 60amp and a 3300kv 540 size brushless motor,direct drive.
i ran it on 2s lipo and 3s lipo,watercooling a must.
on 2s lipo it planed no prob,but on 3s lipo it was crazy.
if you use more than 3s lipo on the esc best to disable bec and buy a seperate ubec or run on 4aa battery's.
giant cod sell all the items i used.
jabba.
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Hi Jabba, thanks for comments, yes I had to disconnect the bec wire, and use 5 x 1.2v rechargeable batteries for rx. If you think 3 cells was good, 6 cells was very scary, and 5 cells are a real laugh!! :}
Just now waiting for a break in then weather to get a good run, will post a video of a brief 5 cell run, with prop changes later all being well :-))
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Here is a short edited video taken 2 weeks ago.(posted previously elsewhere) Its not very good unfortunately, however you can see the difference in props, at each stop. Starting with a small blade 45mm "x", then standard blade 45mm "x", then 55mm "s", then 52.5mm "x" which on 2:1 ratio, 5 cells, gave the best performance. Somewhere in there is a 55mm run, but it was no better.
The temp on the car display was 1 degree, the water was freezing, and I have subsequently read that low temps like this can reduce brushless performance by 15%. The lipos where on their first run also, so I am expecting a better performance when weather warms up a bit, also you can hear that I dont give it full beans, and struggle getting a straight run, so dont know if there is any more top speed in this set up, it does however accelerate very well.
Dont think the set up is quite right yet, motor sounds a bit "boggy", so I would like to try the 1.5:1 ratio again,smaller prop, so the motor can spin up more freely, and of course, 6 cells! :-))
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/th_Huntsmanbrushless1.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/?action=view¤t=Huntsmanbrushless1.flv)
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Enjoyed the video, Paul. Sure looks good. :-)) :-))
Derek. :police:
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how you getting on Derek with your build?
Weather is far too cold in the garage/shed, I am not allowed indoors as I am a very messy builder :}, so not really progressed with Huntsman. I have a couple of new vents ready for painting with Alclad Chrome paint, but too cold for painting!
Really looking forward to getting some testing done in warmer weather with GPS on board! :-))
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Hi Paul,
I have the same problem with the temperature in my workshop (shed) but I have got as far as all the framework glued into the hull and just needs a little sanding down in places before I fit the deck. Will post some photos shortly showing progress. :-)
Derek.
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, I am not allowed indoors as I am a very messy builder :},
Yes when he leaves my place it tackes 3 days to tidy my work room >>:-( then you have to fix the grass <*<
Peter
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Too cold in the workshop, in mine today it was 49degrees celsuis.
Then I turned on the air conditioner and it was soon a comfortable
24 degrees............... :-)) :-))
Roy
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Thats a bit cooler than mine , But I like mine hot very hot , People have tried to book my work room for a Holiday :}
just ask any visitors, %%
Oh and it is also sound proof so I can work at a night or Early morning
Peter
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bit more progress, its been too cold to do much, although I wish I had taken the Huntsman out today for a blast, I was at Hoylake (North Wirral) at 9.00am this morning before work, doing a bit of testing with a small jetboat. The morning was quite mild, and so still, not a ripple on the lake, very quiet, really good.
I have made another pair of air intakes. On the real boat, these are panel beaten by hand, and are a very prominent feature. I vac formed them in clear plastic, and painted from the inside with a paint called "alclad". It has produced a real nice chrome finish, the finish being "back to front", so from ther outside its the chrome finish, and as its on the inside of the c;ear plastic,. should not be tarnished by water. It is generally used by RC car boys when painting clear lexan shell
http://www.alclad2.com/lacquer_colors.html
interesting website for those who want some specialised paint :-))
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couple of pics for the finished article!
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This has been one of the most informative and interesting rebuild/tech threads on Mayhem - Thanks for sharing and well done. :-))
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super model & a great thread. I have enjoyed it & learnt a lot too, many thanks for sharing
cheers Glenn
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Wow, absolutely stunning. You have paid great attention to detail and we can see from the videos it performs great as well.
Thank's for sharing.
Phil.
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Finally got out with 6 lipo cells, so very nervously gave it a go, expecting the dreaded blue magic smoke to emit from anything electrical, but..... it survived! :} although I was a tad timid with the throttle.
The lake was too small really, and it had ice one end, but ideal to test on as it will not take long to drift in if a breakdown occurs :embarrassed:!!
I "think" it went better than 5 lipo cells with a bigger prop (5 cells = 52.5mm, 6 cells =50mm). Motor was a little warm, but I noticed again that after a run, a brushless motor emitts heat from the front, so when the water cooling stops, the motor starts to get hot. We have a plan to pump water through the front of the mount, and then through the motor water jacket after its been running to aid cooling. You can see the first few circuits are timid, then the odd short blast of speed, then I nearly wipe it out on the bank (I am a rubbish driver!), luckily, to dispell all the "brushless wont go in reverse" myths, I was able to stab reverse and just miss the side. It seems to accelerate real quick for a very heavy boat, but I need to put the thinking cap on, I want slower acceleration and faster top speed, I am sure the esc has a different programme for this, and I can alter the gear ratio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtGo7_W2LYY
bit of video, any ideas welcome, oh, and finally the chrome vents, love em! :-))
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Excellent, though you definitely need a bigger lake. :-))
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Red, your boat looks frustrated on that lake :-)), looks like it really wants to motor along. I don't know what transmiter you are using but does it have any throttle curves on it? If you have you could program your tranny for the throttle to open slowly at first and then with more of a rush at the top end.
Phil.
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Hi Phil, no throttle curve, I think I have misled you! Its fully proportional throttle, what I meant was I would give up some of the acceleration to get more top end speed (although it is a bit restricted on that lake!) I was thinking, if it was a car, its a different gear to achieve slower acceleration and better top speed, not explaining that very well am I!! :embarrassed:
I am using the cheap 2.4 turborix tx and rx, no problems, for the money its bang on :-)) I am operating cabin and nav lights at the "xxxxx" of switches, and will be using a pump to drive cold lake water through the motor mount and cooling coil when its finished running.
I have the option to change the gear ratio, but have to keep a watchful eye on running temp, its ok now, but its also just over freeezing point on that last video, so running temp might be a bit misleading.
I think I can go a bit bigger on the prop, but is that better top speed or better acceleration??
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Hi Red, Ah, I see what you mean now, trade acceleration for top speed. If it was an aeroplane more prop pitch would give you more top speed but less acceleration, I would guess that a boat is the same. But then it would pull more amps so less duration. How many amps are you running at? I know you have a 120A esc but what is your motor rated at?
Phil.
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Hi Phil, sorry for late reply, only just realised we have crawled onto page 2! Its a 65amp motor, but now running a 2:1 gear ratio.
The whole lipo thing is a but of a pain, they have to be handled with such care. I have a lipo low voltage warning on both packs, but they seem a bit over zealous and kind of put you off when jabbing the throttle. Under full load they say the cells are over discharged, but after a run they test fine and have not got near the low voltage, also the esc has a low voltage safeguard, you just seem to be worrying about them all the time, whereas nimhs, you can run till flat. Later in year when the boat has some mileage behind it I want to get two 12v nimh packs and run on 24v, just to see what the difference is like, so if anyone in the Wirral area has 2 good high ah nimh pack I can blast................ :embarrassed:
If it runs the same length of time, and same sort of speed, I will ditch the lipos, they seem to be more trouble than they are worth!
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I use Lipos in all of my aeroplanes but I don't rely on the low voltage cut off to end the flight, I always fly using a countdown timer. With a new model after a flight I then recharge the Lipo making a mental not of how much I put back into the pack and after a few flights I the have an idea of how long I can fly for. I treat the packs very conservatively trying to use no more than about 75% of the rated capacity. The great thing with Lipos is you can charge ready for use as they don't self discharge unlike nimh that need to be charged soon before use. I do agree though that nimh can be abused a lot more without giving problems and they make better balast!
Phil.
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well last sunday it went quicker, and no problems, although I think the c rating at 30c 40c burst isnt enough, at full throttle my low voltage lipo alarms are going off, and they are fine on lower throttle, running on 2 x 3 cell 5000mah turnigy lipos (22.2v).
Modified 52.5mm "x" prop, with the 2 blade trailing edges trimmed by 1mm to lessen the load, no heat issues, so next time out its an ally "x" prop. The torque could now be too much for the cheap plastic props, the boat now wants to roll when pushing full throttle, video quality is rubbish, its fine on the camcorder, and on pc, but rubbish when uploaded, cant explain it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VObcKxNWh_c
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ok so I have run the ally prop, and was very suprised to find that it was slower than my converted 52.5mm "X" prop. Still dont think I am there yet with setup, and time off work, weather, family commitments etc really eat up test time! On 6 cells it goes really well, the videos just dont make it look that way :((, I ideally want to run on 5 cells, then that means I can have two runs, as I have two sets of 5 cell configuration, and 6 cells flat out is only 10 mins!, but a great 10 mins!! :}. So I have ordered from MFA a smaller motor gear, which will hopefully reduce acceleration and increase top speed for the bigger lakes. I currently have a 14t motor gear, and 30t shaft, so this 12t motor gear might do the job, and on 5 cells and a bigger prop just might give the answer, but as always its test test and more test.
I can of course just run a 12v lead acid and run all day, but thats not what I want, but earlier this week I had a short sail on a very small lake in Crosby (Liverpool). Unfortunately the local council have neglected their duties ignoring the upkeep of the lake as there was a load of rubbish in the water so we cut short the sail as it was only a matter of time before the prop was fouled, its the first time the boat was run slow! :embarrassed:
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/th_huntsatcrosby.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/?action=view¤t=huntsatcrosby.flv)
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on last video you may have heard a question saying was that full throttle? As I was connecting battery, I think I moved the throttle stick before the esc has set, meaning that the full throttle position had been lost. That evening I recharged the 2 lipo packs, reset the throttle on esc and darted up to Hoylake at 8.00pm. It was just going dusk, and a really mild sunny evening, so had a good thrash around with the nav and cabin lights on.
AS I was on my own it was impossible to video, but when I was running the batteries down I balanced the video camera on the bank and (foolishly!) thought it would be funny to see how close I could get to the camera! :embarrassed:
Its a short video, but you might aswell have it on here :-))
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/th_huntsatHoylakeindark.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/pmdevlin/?action=view¤t=huntsatHoylakeindark.flv)
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any updates
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finally got to stretch her legs on a big lake, due to previous impatience not letting esc set, I think esc is not reading full throttle, but goes well. You can hear the power increasing after first few seconds on a long stretch, From memory, I think the esc has a soft start which is a default, its reprogrammed on a pc/laptop so I will have to do that again.
Left handers are real nice at speed, right handers suffer from as bit of prop torque, first 2 mins are warming up, then a bit at higher speed. Last night I changed the gear ratio to give higher top speed, slower acceleration, for the big lakes :-))
Hope to try that within the next few days, but I have a feeling the drive belt may now be too long with the smaller gear, its a bit too loose. For anyone contemplating building any variation/size of a Huntsman, its a real nice boat and thrives on that rougher water that most other boats dont like, it handles great, my very old cheap rudder servo that was only intended for a test holds well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er5FfXMxrxg
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Not sure why I hadn't picked up on this thread before but I absolutely adore your boat, such a beautiful build and stunning results. Congratulations mate she is a stunner.
Alex
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thanks Alex! :}
had another blast tonight, but back on the small test lake in fear of explosions and having to wait for the boat to float in :embarrassed:
still playing with setup, I fitted a 2 teeth smaller motor pinion, changing the ratio from 2:1, to 2.5:1. The idea being less acceleration, more top speed, for the big lakes. Ran 5 cells, on the same modified 52.5mm prop as described earlier, went very nice, changed to 6 cells much better. Now I have fitted an absolutely superb little gizmo that only cost £15 (Thanks to HS93 for finding this!). It fits permanently if required in line with esc and battery, and measures battery voltage (with built in alarm for low volts), amps, watts, and will scroll continuously through all, and retains max readings, how have I managed without this! only prob is now I know I am frying the motor! :((
I am drawing max 66.7amps, motor is 65amps, 80amp surge, so well on the limit here. But could not rest there, fitted a 55mm "X" prop, never had this big on, and went for it! :} max amps on 6 cells a whopping 72.6a!, is that a record for a scale boat! (ha ha !), it was absolutely ballistic, but it reduces battery run time. Now I think it could be time to get a proper 3 blade prop, then you will see a nice red sunset in the Hoylake area {-)
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had a blast out last night, the 2.5:1 ratio works real nice, its just a matter of swopping props to accommodate large or small lakes. Temperature of motor seems to be under control, but I think the cooling coils around the motor, which is an out runner with a static outer can is not really doing anything. I have thought about mounting a fan, but room isn't really there, so I think its back to thinking of water cooling the mount.
I ran on 19.2v nims, 4600mah, but they seemed to struggle, and got very hot, so I think they where unable to deliver the amps quick enough, the c rating is unknown. Back to the lipos, 22.2v, 5000mah, 30c rating, speed up by a third, I think its the higher c rating that can deliver the amps quick enough. It s a wild ride, even on a smaller prop due to size of lake, but its real good fun, I just cant get enough of this boat, really looking forward to getting quality nims, high mah and c rating, and running on 24v, then I can run till flat, unlike the lipos which need to be pampered. in this video, when hard accelerating, you can hear the lipo voltage monitors beeping as the packs are working flat out! Its only a matter of time before there is a big bang :}, the volt meter mentioned previously recorded a max amp draw of 99.8, good job the esc is rated at 120amps! :-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_VzprATn0M
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the volt meter mentioned previously recorded a max amp draw of 99.8, good job the esc is rated at 120amps!
:o :o :o Holy smoke nearly one hundred Amps!!!! Don't fry your motor %%
Have you taken any video of your Huntsman on the big lake? It would be nice to see her realy open up.
Thanks for sharing.
Phil.
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Hi Phil, long time no speak! :-)
Yes I have been on a big lake with a 55mm "X" prop, it was real good, but I was on my own so could not video. The last one was with my youngest son and he struggled a bit keeoping up, and predicting where I was going to turn next. Hopefully quite soon I will be out with a boater friend, then he can drive, with a gps in the boat, and I can finally get that ellusive video on a big lake :-))
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Hi Red
I've not contributed much lately but I have been around, looking forward to seeing your "big lake" video.
Is that a saltwater lake on your video?
Phil.
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Its a recently rebiult lake at Hoylake, Wirral, and is only about 15 mins from my house so is handy for testing. Its a fresh water lake, but the problem I have encountered is its only yards from the beach. High tides are very unusual, but not long ago there was one, and now there is salt water in the lake, meaning its a wash down of the boat after being there to protect the chrome fittings, lovely location for the Huntsman as I am waiting for some choppy water to get it airbourne :}
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Does the salt cause any problems with the esc or motor and shaft?
I thought you might like to see some photos taken at the Wicksteed Mayhem do this year. Unfortunately the esc burnt out, not sure why I'm only pulling just over 20A wide open throttle. I did find a bit of weed around the propshaft but only a little and I could still turn the shaft OK by hand. It was only a very cheap controller so I'm no to upset. Got a new new pukka water cooled esc now, just need to set it up and give it a run.
(http://s1.postimage.org/f_Osr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxf_Osr) (http://s3.postimage.org/Fafs0.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqFafs0) (http://s3.postimage.org/Fakri.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqFakri)
Phil.
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2nd pic a great shot Phil, not much hull left in the water :} these boats go so well, whar is your set up, motor, esc, batteries etc? Is the boat a wood hull?
Paul
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Hi Red
The motor is a 950Kv 40A outrunner, physically it's about the same size a a 540 motor. It had a cheapy 60A air esc and 4 cell 4400 Lipo. The hull is a Precedent 34" wooden version that is in dire need of a repaint. Go well though :}
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Wow Mr RED181, that is just suburb work :-)) - and great performance in the end %%
Although I am no expert, I bet a pair of trim tabs would give some extra degree of "trim-ability" - I know the r/c controlled ones on my multi racer made a huge difference and where often used to compensate for differing water or race / sport settings & conditions. I even used to use the "mixer" function on the TX to adjust their angle with the use of the rudder.
I just got my semi scale Huntsman / Huntress / Swordsman (still not sure !!) and your efforts make me think I should re-build mine into a more accurate scale job. Mind you with the work you have put in on yours, mine would only ever be a poor relative (me not having the patience, skills or time available to do the level of work you have done)
As I only live in the South Wirral, and it appears you live in the North Wirral, perhaps, next time you are taking yours for a blast, I could meet up and see it in action. (I could also bring mine and pick your brains a little ;) ) (pm with phone number etc to this effect sent)
EDIT = RED181, can you let me know if you got the pm ok as it did not appear to "send" correctly :embarrassed:
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got the pm Ghost, I got A LOT of help with mine, I really like the look of your boat, it looks like a real racer, the front windows do represent Swordfish rather than Huntsman, why not do it like the Huntress in Bonds "From Russia With Love"? , the fuel barrels used in the film would be unique!
Would love to get together, only prob is my run time flat out is 15 mins! so bring plenty of fuel for your boat to keep us busy! I am still pratting around with different props, its amazing the difference that just a prop can make. Between my friend and I, we have quite a few prop shop 2, 3 and 4 blade props, varying pitches and blade construction, unfortunately they are all 4 mm (Well, I have one, he has the rest! :embarrassed:) . SHG have just made me a stainless 5mm shaft, turned down to a 4mm thread so we can now test with the other props. I tried last week a massive 3 blade brass prop, the amp draw almost halved, but the boat virtually turned over, one of the vents and windows where ripped off it went that far over! :} , so its currently in dry dock awaiting delivery of more alclad chrome paint to finish new vents and window frames, I am convinced something like a 50mm 3 blade cleaver will produce the performance I want with more efficiency than the plastic "x" props I currently use, I love testing and trying to improve, far more than just sailing around, each to their own eh?!! :-)) Will be in touch, any questuions just ask
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Hi Red, You appear to be at the stage in the tuning of the boat that the original racers reached and your action pics replicate those of the originals when running near flat out/calm conditions. Your brushless motor seems to have considerable torque to generate such an extreme sideways hull reaction/rotation. Could you give the size of this prop as a reference point. :-)
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got the pm Ghost, I got A LOT of help with mine, I really like the look of your boat, it looks like a real racer, the front windows do represent Swordfish rather than Huntsman, why not do it like the Huntress in Bonds "From Russia With Love"? , the fuel barrels used in the film would be unique!
Come the winter, I may mod my boat to be a bit more scale like.
On the other hand, I might just glaze the windows and play with it %)
! I am still pratting around with different props, I love testing and trying to improve, far more than just sailing around, each to their own eh?!! :-))
Totally agree, that's half the fun in having a high powered boat (or plane).
Just sailing around would get boring for me (us) - (no offence to those who do not get bored by doing that)
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Ghost,
Been thinking about your boat, if it was mine, and as many Fairey bioats where commission build, I would leave it unique as it is, and paint it in the Ford cross channel racing colours, just a thought! :-))
Will get together at Gautby sometime, pref when the water gets a bit choppy so we can catch some air!
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Ghost,
Been thinking about your boat, if it was mine, and as many Fairey bioats where commission build, I would leave it unique as it is, and paint it in the Ford cross channel racing colours, just a thought! :-))
Actually a similar(ish) thought had occurred to me.
I have managed to find the contact details of the guy that owned it last (and built it I wonder ?)
I will contact him to get some "provenance" and if it is old and / or scratch built, I will leave it alone and keep it original.
Will get together at Gautby sometime, pref when the water gets a bit choppy so we can catch some air!
Any time :-))
Used to love racing the Multi in choppy water :-)) - Lots of trim tab and a course pitch prop :-))
It (they) do go faster with a slight chop on the water, I think it must be due to slippery air bubbles under the hull, trouble is, when it gets too rough, the prop spends half it's time out of the water, you need a quick throttle finger to back off when that happens !
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sorry for duplication from another new thread, but I wanted the video to be attached to this build thread also. Its an on board camera, at Gautby Road in Birkenhead, prop testing! :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSdb8C9e_JY
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sorry for duplication from another new thread, but I wanted the video to be attached to this build thread also. Its an on board camera, at Gautby Road in Birkenhead, prop testing! :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSdb8C9e_JY
Red, do you prefer comments on this thread or the other one at http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=26768.0
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In keeping with this thread, I have just looked back on all your (lovely) pics as I wished to see your running gear from the side to compare with mine (pi to follow).
This is in relation to Rudder shape, size and position & Prop position etc.
I am pretty happy with the handling of my boat, but, being aware of the tendency for this design to lean inwards excessively during turns, esp on a course pitch prop, I am keen to attempt to minimise this.
I can envisage the forces from the rudder and the prop wash "lifting" the outside of the boat during a turn.
I have seen various rudder shapes (mostly on Multi FSRV Racers) - some have the rudder much thinner in the area of the prop wash, though my thinking is, the lower area of the rudder should be smaller than the part nearer the hull, as this would result in less leverage pushing the outer, rear part of the hull out of the water (hard to explain in words, but easy to "imagine" what goes on)
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yep know exactly what you mean ghost, I suffered real bad with my 3 foot aerokits Fireboat. My saviour (HS93) made me a narrow rudder and it cured all the handling and turning probs. With the hunts, I have not yet done any work on the rudder its a big brass thing, I have no handling problems at all, only self induced ones, that are:
When at speed, especially in choppy water, if I throttle off for a tight turn, the boat goes stern light, and if I apply rudder at that moment, it ploughs straight on :embarrassed:, I have to think of this when on a small lake as I have been very close to the walls on a number of times. On one of the previous videos, you can see this happen. Due to torque roll, left hand turns are sweet, right handers you have to be on your guard as at speed its a little bumpy :-))
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Jcz3ic_Og
Hoylake earlier this year with onboard rear facing camera, check out how close to the walls once or twice! :-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfjAm3l7A0M
Hoylake last sunday morning, is it my imagination or is the mtor getting noisier! :}
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Yep it rattles like a BMW :}, who built the crappy gear reduction %% I think it needs new bearings ok2, Oh and a tighter belt >>:-(
<*<Peter <*<
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When at speed, especially in choppy water, if I throttle off for a tight turn, the boat goes stern light, and if I apply rudder at that moment, it ploughs straight on :embarrassed:, I have to think of this when on a small lake as I have been very close to the walls on a number of times. On one of the previous videos, you can see this happen. Due to torque roll, left hand turns are sweet, right handers you have to be on your guard as at speed its a little bumpy :-))
Aye, when I was at Gautby lake (3 weeks ago) a guy there pointed out that with a hull like ours, the best approach was the opposite of driving a car fast. that is enter the corner at speed, throttle right down during the corner and only apply full throttle after the rudder is straight again. This seems to lessen the "lifting" effect on the rudder from the prop wash.
I tried it, and the cornering, (esp r/h ones) was certainly less "hairy"
I intend to build another rudder with less area low (down as suggested above) and see what that does.
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still not done the rudder yet ghost! :-))
here is a short video with an amp meter meassuring amp draw whilst running, it also shows the belt drive working at speed, quite interesting, I was expecting the belt to be flapping around as I like it loose to stop drag on the driveline, it does wander up the pulleys though, I was messing around with different size props, (again!! :embarrassed: :embarrassed:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vJGoCM8vM
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Hi Red181,
I have been reading your build record and found it very informative and useful. Many thanks for taking the time to document it.
Just about to start the renovation/completion of a Veron Huntsman 28 (winter project). Problem is I now have a standard to aim for and that's going to be difficult for me to achieve !!!
(http://s4.postimage.org/tnu4k89w/Original_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tnu4k89w/)
The vac-forming looks interesting and I wondered what thickness plastics you were using in the end ? Also, what thickness plastic did you use for the windscreen ?
Probably more questions to come but for now I'll re-read this thread and see what I've missed.
Bryan
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Hi Bryan,
anything I can do just ask, the windscreen was real hard work, I didn't want just thin plastic wrapped around a frame, it is lexan 2mm I seem to recall. I made a cardboard screen, then made a frame out of an old biscuit tin, and then melted, well heated! the lexan over this, it took a few attempts to get it right, and I think if I did it again could do better. The downside is extra weight and I suppose thin plastic would have been equally as good. I fitted it with 4 2mm bolts, so it can be removed for replacement or maintenance. The frame was made from plastic "u" profile strips long enough to do the top and bottom in one go so no joints, this was from B & Q. I then went to the local car "tinting" shop, and scrounged some mid grey scraps and tinted all the windows, inc the screen.
The air intakes, if you are struggling let me know, Ill do a couple for you, it was 1mm I think as I experimented with a lot of plastic card, from easter egg cartons, plastic page dividers, to shop bought, even the plastic card that flowers are wrapped in, anything really, the painting was the problem, I wanted chrome finish, have a look through this thread for all the details :-))
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OK Red181 - thank you for the offer. I may well take you up on it. For now though, having re-read the thread, I fancy trying the process you have described. I hope over the next few days to build a jig and see how I get on. It won't be side vents yet but I would like to prove I have the means to vac form items. It's something I have never thouight of doing before and it could be very useful for all future builds.
Bryan
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What a simply STUNNING boat :-))
I love the full size Fairey boats and am looking for a Huntsman, Swordsman or Spearfish model. I quite fancy the Precedent Huntsman, but if I got one of those, I would have to convert it to aft cockpit instead of aft cabin as I prefer the sweeping lines of the larger open cockpit.
Thank you for taking the time to show us all your work and pass on the info.
Will
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This story from start to now has been a fantastic read.
I do like it when people tell of the mistakes as well as the good bits, it gives us all hope.
I do think that your trying for far too much speed with the boat and personaly i would definitely drop prop size.
The best thing to do is try a few different props, all metal as plastic bends far too much to give an honest result.
The x50 alloy will be slower as the pitch wont be as small as the plastic due to flexing.even active x reinforced are not like metal.
The x 50 plastic is like a x42.5 metal.
Plus if you slow down a tad youl get much longer runs and more motor life.
Its a wonderfull looking boat in every way, would be a terrible shame to crash it.
have you tried a hand held gps on board to see what it does speed wise ?
very good topic
well done
phill
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Hi Phil, thanks for comments, and you must have read my mind!! :}
Story so far, I love testing and meddling, better than just sailing, so during the big freeze things have been moving on, Firstly you are right, I am pushing this old girl way too fast, but you have to see it to believe how superb it handles, the videos just dont do it justice!
Anyway, my "mentor" who has done a fair bit of work for me has been saying exactly the same, brass quality prop, slow up a bit, so the shaft assembly has been removed, and re-bushed and new bearings with new 5mm stainless shaft, but the prop end has a 4mm thread. Reason for this, between us we have possibly 10 propshop props to test with. I did a fair bit of testing with my Fireboat and resulted in a 4 blade cleaver prop, there was a very clever explanation for this, and propshop where very helpful, its something to do with the way the water leaves the prop blades O0, but in my heavy hande way I stripped the thread in the motor pinion gear, its held on with 2 grub screws, so just waiting for that to be re-tapped then the testing begins again. I have a load of data for the 2 blade "x" props, so will know the comparison.
I am also the proud owner of a new eagletree data recorder, with the gps add on, so will be able to record amps, revs, and that important speed. I can map it with google maps, and graph the battery performance, all should be able to be uploaded on here which should be interesting .
Over the last 18 months, when this started, brushless motors have moved on, and costs have fallen sdramatically, which leads me to belive I now need a lower kv (something like 900kv) outrunner (to help with the heat build up I suffer with) and then I can go to 1:1 ratio direct drive, as the motor will hvae more torque than I have now. The cost of these motors on giant cod is as low as £25, I recently paid that for a 600 BB Turbo! :-))
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I too have tried to explain to some people about using 4 bladed cleaver props on submerged drive.
They realy can be very good,especialy when being used for very fast applications like fast planning offshore type boats.
This prop below is 4 bladed bronze prop from propshop, its a 5017e, now when i used it and done tests with the prop i was
amazed to find how different the cleavers are to normal race props.
Here is what happened with a 10cc ic engine on a 50inch offshore race boat.
If i used a 50mm 3 blade alloy prop with 1.5 ratio pitch the boat ran very good,but slightly slower top end than a
2 blade 50mm alloy prop with same pitch ratio.
Both props gave similar acceleration though,but the 2 blade had the edge.
Now then i tried the 50mm 4 blade cleaver with a ratio of 1.7 pitch and expected more top end performance with
a sacrifice to accelearation.
Top end was indeed a bit better than 2 blade, but the pull away was also dramatically improved !!!!!!!
so then i tried a 2 blade 5017, this was no good, too much pitch for the engine to get to top revs,and slower than all the others.
Now this didnt make sense, so tried the tests again this time on a different boat and results were very similar.
The cleaver was the best of all 4 props in every way, and not as much cavitation in airy water.
Here is my wonder prop in all its glory
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x479/phillnjack4/outdrives%20and%20jets/DSCF8026.jpg)
it realy baffles me, as It shouldnt do what it does
phill (http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x479/phillnjack4/icons/7_3_109.gif)
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only problem is phil the cost of the props means you cant have a load to test with, I am fortunate that a friend has a selection all 4 mm hence getting a 5mm shaft with 4mm thread so we can test. After seing the success of changing the fireboat to a cleaver, I am looking forward to doing the tests, after that a new motor! the one in the boat has had a hard year :}
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That motor might of had a hard year ,but it still seems very good to me.
can you not just put new bearings in the motor and use it direct drive on something else ?
I think this is definitely the best performing huntsman ive seen on electric by a long way.
I used to have a 46 huntsman with ic engine, great performance and they do look good from front and back
when up on the plane.
But to see your boat getting performance a like an overpowered ic engine is brilliant.
if another boat was exactly the same as yours it would require a 10cc to catch it,but i think your getting a
better pull away than a ic to be honest.
The boat is fantastic, and i think your on the point of no return, it cannot possibly get much better :-))
How long can the boat run on a single charge ?
phill :-)
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But to see your boat getting performance a like an overpowered ic engine is brilliant.
if another boat was exactly the same as yours it would require a 10cc to catch it,but i think your getting a
better pull away than a ic to be honest.
phill :-)
Hey Red, my 10cc (Irvine) Huntsman (35") is still ready to have a race at Gautby, when I come out of Winter hibernation ok2 (as long as the race is at least 20 minutes long and no pit stops :embarrassed: )
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ha ha I was dreading you turning up Ghosty!"! :-)
To answer Phil also (thanks for kind comments) the gears used (MFA) are not very expensive, so initially we had 2.5:1, which gave very fast acceleration, but the esc sometimes went into "safe mode" not allowing full throttle for the first few seconds. The setting can be changed, but on the "very fast" setting, castle creations waive the warranty :} The fast acceleration is great for the 2 small local lakes I test on. run time was embarrassing, wait for it........10 mins flat out :} :}, but boy are you sweaty and shaky after 10 mins on a small lake!
I have tried 3:1, thinking for the bigger lakes slower acceleration, faster top speed, its easy to change the gears as the prop one stays the same, its the motor one that comes off, but the belt needs changing also as the length now differs. Didn't really see much improvement in speed, although I didn't have any reliable test equipment then. The optimum seems to be 2:1, but I am convinced the motor has more to give, still fast acceleration, but I think it will go faster top speed if I can feed the throttle in slowerand maybe back on 3:1.
For now, its the props, we did briefly try a massive 60mm brass prop, similar to a cleaver, I think it was a "steamer" but it scared the life out of me at Gautby (big lake) as it nearly turned over with torque roll, I lost a vent thats how far over it went (hooligan!)
Run time at present a whopping 15 mins :embarrassed: unless I throttle back, but my left thumb will not do that, flat out or stop is all it knows!
Ghost, 20 Min's!!!!, I would be fun though, I was by Gautby a few times over the last few weeks, the thing that worries me is where did the shopping trolleys go when it was frozen over, I bet they are not that far under the water level, that would be a painful experience if we hit them, :embarrassed:
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I think 10cc irvine and 35 inch huntsman versus this fast electric could throw up a few suprises.
Both are well over powered, and the outcome could go either way if there is a few twist and turns are involved.
In a drag race i would put money on the electric if the distance was only 100 yards.
The irvine would beat it over 200, but i think the electric could have the edge for the first 100.
Be real good fun to watch.
phill
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well the motor gear is back (thanks HS93!!) he has modified it to stop me stripping the thread, changed the 2 3mm grub screws to 4 4mm ones!!,
so Ghosty, Ill take you on!, but I intend to use James Bonds Tactics, see 3.40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0-yjdFxT9U
have you got flame proof paint?? :}
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well the motor gear is back (thanks HS93!!) he has modified it to stop me stripping the thread, changed the 2 3mm grub screws to 4 4mm ones!!,
so Ghosty, Ill take you on!, but I intend to use James Bonds Tactics, see 3.40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0-yjdFxT9U
have you got flame proof paint?? :}
not watching again, try 4 ba grubscrews.
peter
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well it stretched its legs a week or so ago, on a really large lake. I have been doing a lot of testing with an onboard data logger made by eagle tree, with gps speed, amps, volts, and much more info available, which is downloaded to the pc and shows in real time or graphs what is going on, I love meddling!
Anyway, this was the last run with this setup, and gps speed was 21.75mph, which looks really fast on the water. However, brushless technology (and prices) have changed considerably in the last 18 months, and whilst this setup was good then, I think its wrong now, so have just acquired a much lower kv outrunner off ebay. Outrunner to aid cooling, and kv dropping from 1620 to 800, this will allow me to change the gear ratio close to 1:1 almost direct drive, which should give far more torque enabling a larger prop, cooler running, and hopefully more speed and a slightly longer run time as amp draw will be less.
If it fails, then its back to square one! :-)
enjoy! its a good video from the boat, taken at St Helens model boat club lake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1R4XXeUWC8
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Hi Red and all :)
Glad to see you are still having fun tinkering with yours :)
I have a bit of a problem :(
In Feb we moved away from the hustle and noise of central Chester and now live in a very nice village in the country called Malpas.
The problem is I can find nowhere near here to use my Huntsman :(
Birkenhead is now over 35 miles away :(
End result is I have not had it on any water since last autumn :(
I have even thought that I ought to sell it as it is a shame for it to be just sitting on a shelf in the spare room :(
p.s. there is one for sale right now on e bay look for item number = 300559003217
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Gresford Flash ( next to the Pant Yr Ochain) less than 13 miles away, a lovely place and a nice group of chaps. the Wrexham model engineering society have their 5" gauge track next door :-))
http://rogersonhome.co.uk/index_files/Page331.htm
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Gresford Flash ( next to the Pant Yr Ochain) less than 13 miles away, a lovely place and a nice group of chaps. the Wrexham model engineering society have their 5" gauge track next door :-))
http://rogersonhome.co.uk/index_files/Page331.htm
That is great news Cliff and BIG thanks for letting me know !
I will check that out :)
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the Flash looks like a Nice lake PLUS there is a nice Pub 2.1 miles away called the Trevour Arms that does nice sunday lunches.
peter
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ok for all the staticians amongst you, here are some test results for real time testing with various props. Recordings where done with eagle tree data logger, and all runs where only approx 1 min long, trying to avoid battery deteriation, until the end. I recorded the ambient temp, (4 degrees) weather, and wind, so that all future tests can be compared acurately, as I will be shortly fitting another motor. The rest of the info is from the eagle tree, its really amazing what you think "looks fast" actually isnt :}
PROP GPS MAX SPEED AMPS MOTOR WATTS
44.5mm 4 blade cleaver 17.15 mph 46.60 1061
40.0mm 3 blade cleaver 16.80 mph 42.30 996
45mm 3 blade standard 17.00 mph 51.70 1185
x 50.0mm plastic 2 blade 20.60 mph 75.10 1660
x 52.5mm plastic 2 blade 21.75 mph 69.17 1457
x 55.0mm plastic 2 blade 21.41 mph 63.97 1388 (motor very hot!)
I wish I could find a way of dumping the graphs and stats on the thread, its very interesting seeing how batteries recover after a fast "blip" and the relationship between amp draw, I will work on that!
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Paul
looking forward to seeing you run the new motor set up in the Huntsman.... just hope changing the motor hasnt ruined the fabulous noise that boat makes!....... it even sounds fast :-))
it should help you with your testing now you have the fantastic lake at St Helens club to really open her up without fear of hitting anything
keep up the good work, hope you are taking lots of photos and notes on your new big fireboat twin brushless set-up... could be the start of a new build thread from red181?
nice :}
db
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thanks DB, makes a big difference being able to open up and not end up in a corner!
New motor fitted now, but I doubt it will be over with this, I never feel settled! Its a Turnigy 800kv outrunner. Over the last 2 yrs brushless knowledge has come on leaps and bounds, and people are getting good results with lower kv motors, and as the align motor was getting a bit rattly, I thought it was time to try a lower kv, bought second hand off fleabay, so if successful I will get a better quality one.
The theory being, lower kv, more torque, able to swing a bigger prop. After some significant testing over the last 3 weeks, and changing gearbox ratio, I have arrived at 16 teeth on the driveshaft, and 14teeth on the motor shaft, 1.14:1.
1:1 was ballistic, 25.55mph on a 55mm "x" prop, but everything was way too high, amps almost 100 max, hot motor, but geat fun :D
1.25:1 delivered 21mph, so no real improvement on what I had, but this seems (for the time being anyway!) ok, although motor was hot after stopping, cool when running, must be something to do wiith all the heat build up when the outrunner stops turning, so I need to come up with some sort of "after running" cooling system device.
video shows first run with a 50mm "x" prop that delivered 21.5mph, then second run with a 55mm "x" prop 23.85mph, 1589 watts and 80 amps, so its within tolerance of this motor, and very fast! :-))
http://youtu.be/e5-YmmElIfk
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looks well :-)). looks a hell of a lot faster
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well a got a propshop prop, after much discussion, not a cleaver, but a fast scale, its 53mm diameter, really nice prop, tried it last week, but its too big {:-{
1/2 throttle, the boat nearly rolled over. Very interestingly, the boat was much quieter running, it has sounded quite rattly and noisy lately with the Turnigy motor. I changed back to a smaller 50mm "X" prop, and it was noisy again.
Up to now, top speed was 25.5mph, at half throttle I was at 21mph, with less amp draw, so cant wait for the 50mm diameter that on its way.
Excellent service from Propshop by the way, its a free exchange :-))
(http://s4.postimage.org/29jlumuck/SDC10263.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/29jlumuck/)
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( Remember to use "Family Safe" when using • Add image to post ( PostImage.org
- otherwise we get porn ads appearing with your pictures which frighten most people.... much less the horses!)
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Hi Paul
Peter put me onto your thread - I've just spent the evening reading / watching it. Fantastic from start to finish, both highs and lows, and certainly inspiring for the likes of me. That is one insane ride - a big enough straight and you might just have a 'Back To The Future' moment. O0
Re Bond clip - watched that and noticed a 'Puppet On A Chain' boat chase clip too - enjoyed both :}
Thanks for a riveting read.
Regards Dave
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Hi all, glad this thread is still alive and kicking :-))
Gresford Flash ( next to the Pant Yr Ochain) less than 13 miles away, a lovely place and a nice group of chaps. the Wrexham model engineering society have their 5" gauge track next door :-))
http://rogersonhome.co.uk/index_files/Page331.htm
the Flash looks like a Nice lake PLUS there is a nice Pub 2.1 miles away called the Trevour Arms that does nice sunday lunches.
peter
Sadly that lake mentioned above is electric only :((
Mine is still languishing on a shelf in the spare room (motor with after run oil of course :) )
Must find somewhere near me to run it !
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Paul
looking forward to seeing you run the new motor set up in the Huntsman.... just hope changing the motor hasnt ruined the fabulous noise that boat makes!....... it even sounds fast
sadly, the replacement motor, whilst delivering nearly 25mph with the new propshop prop, has lost that very unique noise it makes, which does not unfortunately come across on the videos, it is still however really pushing the set up to the limits, and run time is way too short for even me!, so for the last few months, I have been selling everything I could get my hands on to generate some funds to buy a real nice, but stupidly expensive motor :embarrassed:, just cant stop meddling, and probably won't till I either sink or wreck the boat :}
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You should just let it slip to Peter that you don't think he could possibly build a better motor than what you are looking at - He'll just bust a gut proving you so wrong %% :-)) :}
Regards Dave
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I know, he loves a challenge, wait till you see the big 4 foot fireboat, what he has done with that is a work of art!
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I figure you will be feeding those boats on raw meat before too long :o :-))
Dave
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thats one boat that would love fleetwood lake in the rough
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I figure you will be feeding those boats on raw meat before too long :o :-))
Dave
no just the driver , you should see what he does on his birthday, he has fireworks and dancing (looked a bit like morris dancing)
Peter
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Red181 I have those motors on an arun lifeboat turning 75mm props direct drive running 24v and get on avarage 30mins run times out of her,I have had to stop running it at the Mayhem evnt as the lake is not long enough for her as she is to fast,absoloutly awsome motors......have you tried it on direct drive or even upping the voltage
Dave
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Any video Dave?
Dave
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Sorry no I havnt,all I can say is it's a sight to see a 56lb boat wave hop I have seen it compleetly out of the water passing thru it's own wake frightened the proverbial out of me.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
thanks for input, I have sort of reached my level of understanding with this boat, I have been criticised, and praised, as its really a bit of a monster, clsoe attention to detail to replicate the "real thing", yet stupidly over scale speed. If I did it again, I would make it much lighter, there is a lot of "over engineering" with the ply construction, and things like light control units are unecessary weight, such as the lexan windshield, It would have been much lighter in thin plasticard, its almost like bullet proof glass, James Bond would love it!
There are also the financial constraints, it takes time to save up for the gizmos that make it work at such extreme settings, and now 2 1/2 years on the batteries, two 5000 mah 3 cell lipos are due to be replaced, very expensive!
I can't up the volts past 22.2v, esc is almost at the max, maybe its the fact you have twin screw? I think that would be the answer for this boat, at 23mph the hull on single screw is almost becoming unstable with torque roll. I have considered some sort of trim tabs, but wondered if they would look a bit ugly? I was at 1.14:1 so almost direct drive.
Fleetwood looks great for this boat, it loves the choppy water, and I would love to get some "air" under it!
Anyway, Santa has been a bit early, this is the new (first time for a brand new motor :-)) and FINAL motor, ther next rebuild will be twin screw!
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That is one insane ride - a big enough straight and you might just have a 'Back To The Future' moment.
88mph! now I have atarget to aim for, might need Llanberis lake for that one, and a rescue boat on hand, deep water scares the life out of me, takes some nerve to put your boat on a lake that you know is bottomless!
you should see what he does on his birthday, he has fireworks and dancing (looked a bit like morris dancing)
personal joke, it was my birthday 3 yrs ago, I blew up an expensive castle creations esc that day, the biggest bang you have ever heard from a model boat, and a fantastic smoke display, I can still smell that electrical smell of death in the boat, death never leaves this boat! :o
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Hi Paul
Re criticism. I thought the point of a hobby was to enjoy it - and you have. You enjoyed the build and now you are enjoying pushing the limits of it. You have an ongoing interest that many won't achieve after a build. Good on you :-))
Dave
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watch this space, twin screw coming at end of year, cant get this to go any faster on single screw, just cant help myself!! Ha ha :}, a boat is NEVER finished!
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ive noticed less roll with my three huntsmans by having them on twin shafts , i ll always remember my first 47" huntsman 31 with a hp61 glow power tipping to wash the deck if i cornered her hard ! my current pair being a small 31 " huntsman 31 with aft cabin on twin brushed 777 motors and a spear with twin brushless eflight park 450 motors in her !
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still here! twin screw conversion will be after my fireboat twin screw build is finished (my correct forum name is red181, its in naval section), then a PCF, and a jetboat, so I reckon summer 2013 will see this boat pulled apart for twin screw, same setup as the fireboat with shafts being direct into motors, I think!
Batteries, some posts ago I mentioned the turnigy 3 cell 5000 mahs were getting tired, well one expired not long ago, I have used (after extensive research) gens ace. These are so far much better than the turnigy ever were, holding charge better, and the c rating seems more understated, than turnigy's overstated figures, still relatively budget price, pity the overseas postage charge is such a killer!
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still not done the twin screw yet, the Fireboat build took so long, Huntsman is showing some fatigue now, its been knocked about over the last few years, here is a great video from a couple of week ago, it is duplicated on the model boats section, but I thought it needed to be here also!
3 camera views, its a great ride!
http://youtu.be/VCJhEzLOv7M (http://youtu.be/VCJhEzLOv7M)
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It's a great video too. The on board footage is a fantastic addition Paul.
Dave
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From earlier on up this thread =
Hi Red and all :)
Glad to see you are still having fun tinkering with yours :)
I have a bit of a problem :(
In Feb we moved away from the hustle and noise of central Chester and now live in a very nice village in the country called Malpas.
The problem is I can find nowhere near here to use my Huntsman :(
Birkenhead is now over 35 miles away :(
End result is I have not had it on any water since last autumn :(
I have even thought that I ought to sell it as it is a shame for it to be just sitting on a shelf in the spare room :(
I still have not found anywhere near me to use my boat (Swordsman / Huntress ?) so I have reluctantly decided to sell it.
Look for my for sale post in, well, the "For Sale" section. It's not going on Ebay because I want it to go to a good home as it's such a charming, fast, and interesting boat.
Regards to all,
John 20 miles south of Chester
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Just tagged onto this thread as a way of finding it quickly when I want to refer to it...I'm gonna have one of these boats one day :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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I just discovered that although I used to post on here quite often a while back, I have had to re-register and that puts me back as a newcomer, which in turn means I cannot use the "For Sale" section >:-o - So it looks like this boat will have to take it's chances on Ebay :((
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So it looks like this boat will have to take it's chances on Ebay :((
I'm interested and have sent you a PM.
Best regards,
Mark
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This is good as I was very reluctant to put it on Ebay as I didn't want it to go to some spotty Herbert that didn't know what it really is.
I have sent you a link to a DropBox folder with lots of Hi-Res pics and a txt file telling all about the boat.
Here is a "taster" =
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/ghost123uk/Portabove.jpg)
Since that shot I have put "glazing" in the windows.
Regards,
John
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We sail at Gresford, just North of Wrexham a couple of afternoons a week (Wed and Sat from 2pm)
Any use to you?
-Rob
Edit:
Never mind, I see that despite the thread title, your boat's ic not brushless.
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I remember commenting on how unusual the rear of the cabin was, giving the boat a real "racey" look. I am still a member of St Helens Model Boat club, which from Wirral is still a 40 min drive, but its a great location, nice people and a good size lake, unfortunately suffering from the dreaded weed problem at the moment :((
I still use Gautby in Birkenhead, and have also sailed in Newsham Park, Liverpool, very welcoming bunch there.
As far as My Huntsman, other projects have delayed the twin screw conversion, at present a PCF Swift boat refurb, and an RC shark, but thanks for revitalising this thread for others to read. I too lost my identity some time ago so I am no longer linked to this thread.
Paul
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I know this thread have been going for a while but since I'm in the process of rebuilding a Veron Huntsman 28 myself and use this as my reference while trying to give this superior kit some justice, a thank you is in order to Paul. Great work.
Hany
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Hi to Paul and all the other followers of this thread :-))
Sadly I still haven't been able to use my IC powered Swordsman / Huntress ? (pic a few posts up) due to living (for 4 years now) too far away from any suitable water. I must decide whether to keep it, oiled and "mothballed", or to reluctantly stick it on Ebay to take it's chances.
Regards to all,
John, (near Whitchurch, in N.Shropshire).
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keep it John
it even looks fast standing still! I love it :-))
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Why not convert to electric?
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Why not convert to electric?
I have considered this, but I am against it on two grounds, firstly, more than 50% of my interest in model boats (and I used to race CMB 67 powered FSRV "multi's") is that I love messin with real engines (same with my aeroplanes). Secondly, I have seen how much work (and money spent) Red has done to get his "up to speed"! Ta for the suggestion though :-))
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Hi Paul and all.
Sadly I have now bitten the bullet and put mine on Ebay.
I hated seeing it just sat on a cupboard in the spare room gathering dust.
It needs to be used, but I just don't have water big enough near my since moving house :(( <:(
If anyone wants a look, it's item number 221705294651
Feeling really quite sad typing this.
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sorry to bump this, but could not resist for a brief time having the top two builds!
and this thread, still going after all these years, is this a record Martin!
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sorry to bump this, but could not resist for a brief time having the top two builds!
and this thread, still going after all these years, is this a record Martin!
Nothing wrong with keeping a good build log fresh Paul, I missed it :embarrassed: I was only looking in the 'dry dock' board for hint's , I soundly CURSED halford's Hi-Build yellow primer >>:-( put my painting back weeks & weeks, stripped it all eventually & started again . . . I'm getting MAD again . . . .
You've had 26,000 + views on this post , I'm a long way behind on my Fantasy Huntress log with 3,700 +
Bill
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...and there was I, thinking this thread was finished...thanks for bringing it back to the fore.
There's a number of your photo's that I had intended using as reference for my upcoming Huntsman rebuild and I thought they had vanished. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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well its time to bump this thread again!
The Huntsman came out twice in 2019, and its been out once 2020. late last year I acquired two really expensive 6 cell, 8000mah lipos, really high quality, as a pay off for a RC related job. I was going to sell them as they are massive, too big for any of my RC Planes, but then remembered I owned something that was nesting in its box that used 6 cells.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4OQbqIByw0&t=324s
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Blimey Paul, that video brings back some good memories of the Gautby Rd lake :-))
Nice to see your boat is still going VERY well O0 (we never did arrange that race did we).
Take care matey
John
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Hi John,
nice to hear from you. I passed Gautby a few weeks back, and the council have chopped all the trees down (behind where I was standing) as they where rotten and becoming dangerous. Its made the lake feel a bit open to the elements, which is a shame, and not so private now, yeah the race! ha ha
Think I would def have you on the first lap, after that, well Ill be looking at your transom as my lipos deplete. I keep promising to make it twin screw, and a lot lighter, but Im RC Planes now and never really have the time to dabble with boats as planes crash!
Paul
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Nothing wrong with keeping a good build log fresh Paul, I missed it :embarrassed: I was only looking in the 'dry dock' board for hint's , I soundly CURSED halford's Hi-Build yellow primer >>:-( put my painting back weeks & weeks, stripped it all eventually & started again . . . I'm getting MAD again . . . .
You've had 26,000 + views on this post , I'm a long way behind on my Fantasy Huntress log with 3,700 +
Bill
yeah ha sorry but so so glad someone else had issues with Halfords yellow primer and i paint for a living....applied 3 coats of the dammed stuff rubbing down between oats and then applied the grey primer ands it reacted rubbed down started again just using grey primer and no probs
Dave
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I keep promising myself never to use it, but somehow it always sneaks in, and usually always creates issues, even when staying with same brand, think its because its always in the paint cupboard, and at night, secretly pushes itself to the front of the shelf, always reacts with white and black top coats!
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Hmm, my BLACK Swordsman's starting to look at getting freshly painted . . . .I'll ponder on it . . . {:-{
Bill
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Hi all,
I have just finished a restoration of a huntsman. The Veron 1973 kit.
I have tried it out on the flash at Gresford sailing club, i have posted a video on the Gresford SC Model Boat and model yacht racing,and model boat mayhem Facebook pages,
Goes well with a SSS 800KV running on a 4S lipo
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Thanks for reviving the thread Barras! :-))
A pal has just finished his ic powered Hunts, we intend to have a race at Fleetwood, that should be interesting!
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12 yrs old thread still going! is that a record Martin!! :}
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Thanks for reviving the thread Barras! :-))
A pal has just finished his ic powered Hunts, we intend to have a race at Fleetwood, that should be interesting!
Linzi Lou will beat it hands down Paul , turn the wick up . . . O0
Bill
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12 yrs old thread still going! is that a record Martin!! :}
Must be! :-)) {-)
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Have any of you had any issues with the bow of the boat trying to dip under the water when turning at speed?
been trying to get photos on here but failed sorry
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Thanks for this thread;
I have a vintage part-built wooden version plus a GRP one that is complete almost that I bought off facebook marketplace. Both of them are going to be overhauled/rewired/repainted so the advice on here is great !
new to boat building, but I was retired last year (medical-no choice) and I am bored to tears, so my childhood is starting all over again !
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Thanks for this thread;
I have a vintage part-built wooden version plus a GRP one that is complete almost that I bought off facebook marketplace. Both of them are going to be overhauled/rewired/repainted so the advice on here is great !
new to boat building, but I was retired last year (medical-no choice) and I am bored to tears, so my childhood is starting all over again !
GRP and Wood versions, would I be correct in assuming these are Huntman 31 rather than Huntsman 28?
Either way, great to see some more Faireys getting some love.
Will