Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: marmoi on January 05, 2010, 03:25:35 pm
-
I have been working on a slightly smaller, but non the less challenging model as the G3 is a bit big to work outside on during the winter months.
The new model is a prototype for a new kit and is being developed as such.
The HMS Velox in question is the 1904 Torpedo boat destroyer as shown in the picture below. Plans are available and come free with every copy of "The First Destroyers", published by Chatham.
-
Weight is going to be paramount on this model as I want to build it correct with four motors and we calculated that the maximum displacement is 550 grammes. So being a sucker for punishment I thought that tho help me control the model I would also use two speed controllers. To counter the weight of the motors and dual speed controllers I will use a LiPo battery.
The running gear is made from Brass and the shafts are Marine Grade Stainless (316L).
-
I have also saved space by using the transmitters on-board mixer. Conventional steering is via a 5g micro servo. Bow and stern have model foam blocks fitted for emergencies and as can be seen in the picture below, balsa was used as the main deck support.
The battery is now fixed in position in a Balsa tray as it is a light material and adds some more buoyancy if needed.
-
If the scale is 1/96 , I do a complete kit of fittings for this vessel if you are interested www.johnrhaynes.com
-
Hi John,
I think I have most of the fittings I need now thank you, and the larger pieces I am either going to use resin or plasticard. The main superstructure I am planning on using fine PE. It's going to be a challenge to keep the weight down on this model.
Mark
-
I love torpedo destroyers, I'm watching this thread with great interest.
-
Ive had the book for many years, often thought about it......... but at a much bigger scale to make it more interesting/ less of a battle.
-
Hi Rob,
The larger scale has been done before, I have been waiting for the electronics to catch up so I could do this boat and add it to my pre WW1 fleet.
I promise you I don't leave any detail off on my models and have spent many hours pouring over the drawings to make sure everything is accounted for. :-))
-
No disrespect meant Marmoi.... meant as a comment on my thick fingers !
-
Non taken Rob :-)
Mark
-
Curiously I am also building a model of Velox but to nominally 1/48 scale plus a bit. The reson for plus a bit is that I am installing a steam engine and just needed greter depth for the boiler and length for the engine room to ensure appropriate stability given the unavoidable high center of gravity of the boiler and engine.
The boiler is a mk2 Cheddar moldels puffing unit (Sadly Cheddar are no longer trading) with my own designed and built in line double actin twin oscilator. I am driving only two shafts as I have no real idea of the power development from the engine and this is a more efficient solutionm than 4 shafts due to frictional losses and propellor efficiencies.
My 1/96 scale Victorian Battleship Canopus is powered by a Cheddar models Puffin and weighs in at about 35 pounds in all. Top speed is perfectly scale and if I let the bolier pressure build to about 40 psi it tears along with a magnificent wake. The engine I have built is nomilaly the same kind of size as a Puffin unit so I am optimistic I will have the same power, but in a lighter, if longer hull so top speed should be adequate, who knows! This is the fun of building something different!
To date I have completed the hull and engine/boiler installation and was mid way working on the fittings, all brass, when I got divorced so until I can get myself set up again progress has ground to a halt. I'm nearly set up again so should shortly be able to make some more progress.
In practice I cannot claim mine to be an exact model of Velox due to the chages I have made to accomodate the power plant but it will be representative of the type of turttle back 27 knotters of the period, and of course I'll finish her in Victorian colours.
Good luck with your model
Geoff
-
Geoff - any chance of a pic of Canopus under way please?
-
Work has been continuing on the Velox, although the Brass etching had to stop for a while as Microsoft sent and update that took out my laptop <*<. Now that they have given me a hotfix to get it going again I will get back to that job.
However I have been working on the central detail as you can see in the pictures below.
The large black construction in the centre is the officers WC, this is made from plasti card then covered in tissue paper to give the canvas effect.
Mark
-
I am a ludite when it comes to computers, my home PC has crashed and until my daughter can fix it I can't do much. As regards photos of Canopus, there are some on another web site (unfortunatley not at full speed but the gun fire is good!) www.warship modelsunderway.com Go to "Gallery" and 29.
Enjoy
Geoff
-
Looking excellent good so far! :-)) I'll definitely be following this thread with great interest, as I scratchbuilt a 1/96 static model of Velox a few years ago (http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dd/hms/velox-96-ep/ep-index.html). Is your model to the same scale? (I'm guessing so since you mention that weight is an issue)
Your design for the PE bridge + gun platforms looks seriously impressive - the hull also looks very good, how did you build it? Vacformed styrene over a mould?
-
Yes the scale is 1/96th, so everything is nice and fiddly >>:-(. I like the model you made and the detailing will help me interpret a few areas on the drawings that were unclear. :-))
The PE is coming along slowly, starting to layout the sheet now.
The hull is a new fibre glass moulding from Deans Marine (new in the fact that I got my mits on the first out of the mould), and hopefully it will be turned into a kit at a later date.The moulding has been done as light as possible to give me the chance of motorising it and not turn it into a torpedo {-)
Mark
-
Deans Marine hull and later kit is from me . Modellers interested in 1/96 parts can get them from me , the original source.
-
Right, been a bit quite recently as work has been busy, but I have finally got the etchings together. I flat patterned my CAD work and put it together in a frame. Early pic of frame work below;
(http://s2.postimage.org/t0BwS.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tst0BwS)
-
With the final frame layout done, I first created the Solid section of the etch;
(http://s4.postimage.org/1qHw0.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1qHw0)
Then the half etch (Red) and tags (Blue);
(http://s3.postimage.org/hqD_i.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqhqD_i)
This combined on three layers gave me the final artwork;
(http://s4.postimage.org/1r7XA.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1r7XA)
I am now waiting for the etch to arrive :D
-
Which etcher are you using and can you give some idea of the price? The ones I've approached want to make 17" x 12" or so minimum size for £200+ !
-
I am using PPD
http://www.ppdltd.com/web_site_3/page_1_intro.html
2 x A5 etchings including artwork £48.18 Del. 4-5 days
Very helpful people
-
Excellent! Thanks very much.
-
Photo etchings are here! Now to put theory into practice %%
-
Those etchings certainly look good - looking forward to seeing them on the model. Are the oval objects the frames of the collapsible boats?
I'm thinking of building a (static waterline) 1/96 model of HMS Havock - the first TBD - in the near future, its' a relatively small + simple subject (more so than Velox) for which I've got excellent reference material, so I might actually be able to build + finish it in a reasonable time frame, unlike some of my previous scratchbuilds.
-
Yes, that is correct they are half of the collapsable boats, the keel and canvas sections are the three rectangular parts on the top Right of the etch. These will be folded in half and the oval sections folded and placed on top.
I must admit I don't think I will go much smaller with a working model as things are getting a bit scary in anything more than a gentle breeze.
Mark
-
I have started to cut the pieces from the etch sheet now and have formed a few up.
here is a collapsible boat
-
Flying deck
-
Raised stern and steering position
-
More
-
Test fit the flying deck
-
Right, sorry for being quite so long on this project, did a lot of work on the G3 last summer and work has been very hectic the last few months, however . . . after much deliberation, trials, experiments I have come up with a solution for the larger parts that I could not make by photo etching.
I had a requirement that the parts had to be extremely light (working model, don't want it to roll over) - No metal castings, they had to be thin walled - Resin castings were tried, but the thin walls gave a lot of problems, I needed a lot of vents and they had to be consistent - hand building techniques could not produce the accuracy and consistency.
So it was time to think out the box!
The solution I felt was right for this model was to use a relatively new technique that I have used before in my work - Stereo lithography. The general concept of this process is the build the components required in 3D CAD and then a very cleaver computer program slices it in to thin layers and rebuilds the model in the real world out of resin. There are various ways of doing this, but the process I found and used after 6 months of investigation builds the model in 0.04mm thick layers so the resolution is very high.
The final computer model looked like this and is drawn at 1/96th.
-
The final real world model looked like this.
Each square on the cutting mat is 10mm.
-
I had achieved what I had set out to do and got wall thicknesses down to 0.1mm where they were required.
I then sat and looked at the model for a month before getting up the courage to slice it up.
After a bit of sanding to clean the base off I was very pleased with the results. The guns were especially pleasing as they came out with a 0.6mm bore already formed.
-
Now it's onto the painting and the vents, even if I say so myself, are looking good :embarrassed:
-
Beautiful job Mark,
I'm finishing off a 1:96, very semi-scale, version of Arquebuse with about the same dimensions and displacement as Velox. Hull is balsa/tissue with the rest being whats around the workshop.
She's only twin screw and I've used a pair of 15mm 3-blade props that I had lying around.
I've used 4 AAA NiMh cells spaced around the hull with a micro Rx and 2x6g servos for steering and a small on/off/reverse Bob's Board switcher.
Bath trials give a good scale speed BUT with the scale rudder steering is virtually non-existent, as it is with her bigger, 1:36, sister (See Pointy Thing threads)
Congrats on a superb project.
Tony :-))
-
Hi Tony,
Yes, they are very fast craft on the water, but the steering in real life and on the models is terrible, thats why I went for some mixing as well or I would never get her back {-)
Have been watching your thread with interest, I love the look of some of those French warships.
Mark
-
Mark this is brilliant work, the mouldings are far more crisp than you could get from more traditional methods. If I understand it correctly
you design the components on your CAD programme but how do you get it to the stereo lithography stage where the finished article is produced.
I take it that the machine that produces the finished item costs a bomb so you have to send the details away.
Who does this type of work and is it a costly process.
It makes the parts I have made look so rough and ready in comparison.
Geoff
-
Hi Geoff,
I will try and explain this with out getting to techie and this ONLY applies to the actual machine used for these components before anyone starts telling me I have it wrong <*<
If you can visualise the CAD model in the first picture above, this model is sent to the Stereo lithography agency and their computer slices up the model in the vertical axis into slices of 0.04mm thickness (much like putting it through a meat slicer but much thinner). The data is then feed one slice at a time to the stereo lithography machine which let a 0.04mm layer of liquid resin over a sheet of glass. The glass is like a laptop screen and it has an electronic negative image of that single slice. A flash goes off and anywhere that was exposed goes hard, the model thenmoves back 0.04mm and the process is repeated until the model is complete. It is then removed and hardended of completely in an oven. Total time for this particular model was 3 hours.
This is just a very basic explanation.
-
Thanks Mark with your explanation and then looking it up on Wikipedia I get the idea - certainly takes model making into the 21st century
but is it very expensive.
Geoff
-
No, it's not cheap, but also it's not as expensive as it used to be and you canproduce things withthis process that are not possible using other methods.
We in the boating world must start moving forward, the fly boys, boy racers and station masters out there are miles ahead of us.
Mark
-
We in the boating world must start moving forward, the fly boys, boy racers and station masters out there are miles ahead of us.
Mark
To be honest, to many wargamers it is black magic.
-
{-) If Black Magic worked, I wouldn't need to do all this!
-
It'll be interesting to compare Velox and Arquebuse in their handling. Jimmy James and I tested the 1:36 version under full control. I ran the motors independently while he handled the steering. She was ballasted down correctly and we had pretty well flat calm/very slight chop at Eaton Park in Norwich. We found that independent control of the screws made such a miniscule difference that I've decided not to mix in either scale.
That said, having the rudder ahead of the screws does not help matters.
Tony
-
I was wondering what the handling would be like on the Arquebuse as the configuration did look strange, but this is what I like about the early boats. However I have found that the mixing on the Velox is about the only thing that gives me steering.
-
It was almost embarrassing actually. It was virtually impossible to moor up side on to the 'quay'. The only controlled way we managed was to drop anchor (lead weights) and drag back to moor stern first. This could have been the case with the real boats as well since almost all the photos show them being moored stern on.
Jimmy also kindly made a small jib, no bigger in area than a saucer, which would have been carried for use and this could easily overcome the steering even in light wind. Bearing in mind the boat is 5ft long, they must have had some trick that I haven't yet discovered to overcome the lack of 'driveability'. They did build a lot of them after all!
Tony :}
-
I have been working on the guns this weekend and this is the first chance I have had to combine the photo etchings and 3D models.
The shoulder stock is made from 0.4 x 0.75mm (.015 x .030") micro strip.
-
When lined up, I am very pleased with the outcome.
-
Very nice work. The photo etch bits really add a lot.
Tony
-
Such nice work!!...I have such a long way to go-- but work like this is a goal for sure!!
-
Gentlemen, do you mean something like this? Made it scratch about 9 years ago, scale 1:100 {-)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2102ulft0/PC080097.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2102ulft0/)
Best regards,Jörg
-
Hi Jörg, long time no see. How are you doing, love the model. :-))
-
Having been given some time off from gardening duties for good behaviour I have had a chance to progress with the painting and assembly of the forward parts, pics below.
-
Hi lovely looking model you have their I've allways liked the look of the WW1 warships :-)) :-))
-
It's getting fiddlier by the day though! %%
-
Here is an example I have been working on this evening.
The Chart table is glazed (from behind the frame), the map has got various navigation tools on it.
When assembled the whole thing fits on a five pence piece.
-
Hi Mark,
Looking very very nice :-)). A quick question, where did you get the fine brass flat section from for the strip work on the linoleum deck areas?
It looks excellent.
Ian
-
Hi Ian,
Sorry to disappoint, very fine plastic strip and then hand painted. :embarrassed:
Mark
-
Thanks Mark,
It shows how convincing it looks when i thought it was brass work!!
Keep up the good work.
Ian
-
If you want brass try North Yard Models in New Zealand. Mostly Model Railway parts but they also do brass sections. Contrary to some reports they are still in business under new owners.
www.s-scale.org.uk/North%20Yard%20Product%20Catalogue_Jan%2011.pdf for their dogalogue
"North Yard" <northyard@xtra.co.nz> for email.
I bought some brass from them earlier this year.
-
I considered using Brass strip, but felt there would be a problem of differential expansion if the model was ever in sun light.
The Brass would probably break loose and I could see small strips of Brass pinging up everywhere. >>:-( {-)
-
Whilst at a larger, 1/48 scale, on my model of Velox I used self adhesive copper tape for the brass strips holding the cortecine down. This can be got from many hobby stores and I believe is uses in stained glass windows for some reason. If pained with a clear varnish it should also retain is lustre.
It's easy to cut and being self adhesive easy to fix and also very flexible so no chance of differential expansion causing things to pop off.
Hope this may be of interest.
No progress on Velox as now trying to move house!
Geoff
-
Geoff- good luck with the move - I dearly love your boat subject and results!! We will just have to wait! <:(
-
Well where did the summer go to???
Got Velox out and set to work on the mast and rigging as I want this out the way before starting on the railings. I have picked up some nice etch sets of 1/96th pulleys and general ship fittings and thought they would add some very fine detail.
The pictures are fairly explanatory but any questions feel free to ask. The piece of wire is 0.2mm Nickel Silver. The deck fxings are 2 part - plate and ring.
Mark