Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Working Vessels => Topic started by: justboatonic on February 15, 2010, 04:07:12 pm
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Hmmm. Next query I have on the Envoy build is about the Main (fore) Deck and how it fits to the hull. The instructions seem a little contradictory (or maybe its how Im reading them?) on this point.
The instructions say to fit the 6 x 3 mm deck supports for the Main deck so the supports are at the same level as the strake on the outside of the bow. OK so far. It follows that the deck supports which are shown as one piece, maintain this datum until the step down for the aft section. So, if you fit the deck supports as stated at the bow, these should be level with the hull sides going back from where the front strake ends.
The instructions next say the Main fore deck should be fitted on top of the deck supports. Fair enough. But this then contradicts the next bit of the instructions which state the Main fore deck should be fitted between the hull sides. And, since the hull is narrower than the plasticard deck (which shouldnt be trimmed as the instructions also say the deck is used to maintain the correct overall width of the hull) I dont see how it can be fitted between the hull sides nor be used to maintain the correct hull width.
My way of looking at this means either the deck supports must be set the deck thickness below the front strake to the aft step allowing the deck to fit between the hull sides OR, the deck supports are fitted per instructions and the deck sits on top of these, will therefore be above the level of the deck sides and wont satisfactorily push the hull sides apart. Anyone follow that?
How have others fitted the Main fore deck?
Help!
Thanks!!
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Give Model Slipway a ring, they are very helpful and they've answered many a question from me in the past.
Laurie and Jackie are never put out no matter how silly you think the question is. :-))
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Yep, very helpful people!
After looking at one of the reviews in MSW gallery for the Envoy, I found a full review (no holds barred!) on another site. This http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2137749 clearly shows some serious bracing not alluded to in the instructions, is required plus, the deck supports for the Main deck have been placed below the level of the front strake.
(http://s4.postimage.org/105gS.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV105gS)
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Right, started fitting the deck supports, 6 x 3 mm plastic strip. Got the first layer fitted for the Main fore deck and half the aft deck done. Just waiting for the epoxy to go off!
Thing is though. when you put the resin on thin strips like the deck supports then fix them to the hull with clothes pegs, once the glue has dried and you take the pegs off, I always find a slight bead of resin between the hull sides and the plastic strip. What's the best way to stop this happening since it also stops the deck being fitted snugly on top of the strip. And we all know epoxy is difficult to flatten.
Normally, I'd wipe the excess epoxy off but when you have 25 - 30 pegs holding the strip to the hull that's a bit difficult. Less epoxy means the strip doesnt stick to the inside of the hull due to the coarse GF used.
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I trim mine off with a Stanley knife, doesn't take long.
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I trim mine off with a Stanley knife, doesn't take long.
Is that after its set DD?
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It is. :-))
Run the point of the knife flat along the top of the 6mm x 3mm then vertically along the fibreglass.
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It is. :-))
Run the point of the knife flat along the top of the 6mm x 3mm then vertically along the fibreglass.
Cheers for the tip DD! I'll give that a go after I've fitted all the supports.
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I run a sharp 1/2" wood chisel round it and I find that works pefectly and the odd stubborn bit can also be lifted off with said chisel. :-)) O0
By the way - NOT using it like you would normally use a chisel, but as a scraper. ;)
Derek.
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Once again, thanks for the advice!
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Right, first level of deck support strip fitted all around inside of the hull.
Next step is to double this up!
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OK, deck supports doubled up and glued in place.
Next job and Im looking ahead a little here. I've managed to get the opening for the prop tube sorted so its lining it and the motor up so everything is nice and centered. So any tips for this?
It would be easy to just lob the prop tube in, fix the coupling and motor on and say job's done. Only that doesnt mean the thrust from the motor is down the centre line of the boat which shows itself when sailing as having to have a bit of rudder trim on all the time. You cant use the mould line in the hull either since this may not be the true centre line.
Sooooooo, what's the best way to line up and make sure the motor, coupling and prop tube are straight down the centre line?
Any suggestions?
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Mark a centre line inside the hull.
I mark from the bow and along the skeg on the hull.
I use elastic and blue tak to hold it.
I mark alternate sides of the elastic and draw the line between the marks.
If it doesn't look quite right erase the line and adjust.
This should ensure that the propshaft and motor are directly in line by looking vertically down on the set up.
Bob
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When you are actually fitting the motor use a solid connection between the motor shaft and the prop shaft to ensure alignement then remove it once the motor and shaft locations are set.
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Thanks both :-))
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Blimey! This rear deck sure needs a lot of trimming. O0
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justboatonic where's the photos. {:-{
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justboatonic where's the photos. {:-{
Too embarassed to post any just yet DD ok2
Once I've got the deck looking sorted I'll put one or two up for critique!
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OK, here are a couple of pics of the Dirty Harry, Envoy tug build. Im going to call it DH since one tug was called Enforcer. A man's got to know his limitations!
Apologies in advance as the pics are taken with the integral laptop camera!
First one is of the rivets I've put on the hull. Yes, for the purists out there, they arent the right scale size or pattern. Even so, I reckon there's getting on for 2500+ rivets on the hull. Hope they show up alright!
(http://s4.postimage.org/zJl5S.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVzJl5S)
This next pic should show the deck supports held to the hull by high tech means (clothes pegs) while the glue goes off!
(http://s2.postimage.org/6wlqA.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Ts6wlqA)
This pic shows midships with the rubbing strakes fitted. The forward deck supports should be visible.
(http://s4.postimage.org/zJF30.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVzJF30)
This last one shows the prop tube exiting the hull. Not sure if the damage can be made out (probably not) when drilling and filing. Bit of fibre glass resin should be enough as there isnt a lot of damage done.
(http://s3.postimage.org/QEcN9.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqQEcN9)
Oops! Forgot this one of the rear decking being worked into place. Still lots of trimming towards the stern as the width towards midships determines the the hull's overall width.
(http://s4.postimage.org/zLDM9.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVzLDM9)
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Little on the small size but they are photos alright.
Seem to be getting on alright, looks fine. :-))
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Little on the small size but they are photos alright.
Seem to be getting on alright, looks fine. :-))
Ta for that DD.
Right, had a look at the rudder last night. Have to say Im not keen of the kit supplied item(s). The rudder is made from 2 thin pieces of plasticard. Not certain if the card is a thou thick so two together is 2 thou thickness?
Here's a shot of the rudder cut out and two halves stuck together. I've not fully trimmed the rudder to profile or outline yet. Sorry if the pic is grainy.
(http://s1.postimage.org/9h9Yr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
OK photography aside, it doesnt look too bad. But, this next shot shows bend!
(http://s4.postimage.org/CxeM9.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
Do I not like that! The rudder needs 4 'stays' fitting to it which may make it a bit more straight up and down but Im not convinved. Also, with a 70mm prop right in front of it, Im not convinced it wont flex in the water.
So, Im in need of ideas what to use to replace the kit rudder. any ideas? I dont have fancy workshop facilities so need something thats going to be stiffer than the supplied card but, reasonably easy to make and profile ie the replacement must have the same outline as in the first picture.
Any suggestions \ advice?
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David
Styrene sheet parts should be 1.0mm each, not 0.001". If you slightly warm the assembly you have made then it will bend back flat - just weight it down while it cools. My Envoy was made exactly as per the plan and there was no evidence of flexing when under way. Just try bending it by hand and you'll see how difficult that would be!
I would, however, recommend using a high-power servo as there is no dynamic balancing on this rudder. I found a Perkins one in our local model shop for about £15 which did the job perfick.
FLJ
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David
Styrene sheet parts should be 1.0mm each, not 0.001". If you slightly warm the assembly you have made then it will bend back flat - just weight it down while it cools. My Envoy was made exactly as per the plan and there was no evidence of flexing when under way. Just try bending it by hand and you'll see how difficult that would be!
I would, however, recommend using a high-power servo as there is no dynamic balancing on this rudder. I found a Perkins one in our local model shop for about £15 which did the job perfick.
FLJ
Thanks Dave.
Yep, the rudder came from the relevant sheet so 1mm (x 2) not 1 thou will be correct.
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Does anyone know whether the fullsize Envoy class tugs had a 4 or 3 bladed propellor? Kit comes with a very nice 3 blader but Im wondering if a 4 is actually correct.
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Right then, the Graupner 900 has been binned (not literally, see the For Sale forum for details!) as imo its not suitable either in size or performance.
So, after a lot of head scratching and considering alternatives such as an MFA 800 with belt drive (silly money!), a 1 to 1 belt drive from the Graupner 900 to the propshaft (doesnt get around some of the issues with the G900 or some other geared motor, I decided it had to be an MFA 919 with 6 to 1 gearbox.
With some trepidation, the motor arrived today and I must say, have MFA improved this setup!? Its totally smooth and more to the point, quiet! :-)) Couldnt believe how quiet it is compared to the two similar MFA 919's and gearboxes in Drumbeat. Those gearboxes are 2.5 to 1 so maybe that the difference but I do have to say Im impressed with the new one I have. Hope it stays that way and doesnt get noisier as it runs in!
So, I can get on with installation now!
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Ah well told you all I was a slow builder!
Here are some more pics of the Dirty Harry Envoy build Im doing.
The first pic is the full hull now painted. Ive used Plasti kote paints for anti foul, black satin and white above the waterline. The anti foul red is also used for stern and forward decks. Portholes, washports and anchor ports have been drilled.
(http://s3.postimage.org/19c2r.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq19c2r)
Second pic is a close up of the stern. Unfortunately, when the model was shipped by MSW, they included a 3 bladed prop when all the blurb in the build notes refers to a 4 blader. As I'd bought the kit some time ago, I didnt think it fair to ask MSW to exchange the prop so bought another 4 blader instead. I wanted some rivet detail on the hull so spent a lot of time with an old syringe putting a few thou on. Yes, I know they are oversized but I couldnt face putting on twice as many smaller ones! Go on, shoot me!
(http://s2.postimage.org/s6yq9.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tss6yq9)
3rd pic shows draft marks and plimsol line fitted. Instead of the kit supplied portholes, I've bought some brass 8mm ones from Cornwall Model Boats (thanks for the excellent service!). These have been trial fitted and look really good!. I need to order some more for the superstructure though!
(http://s2.postimage.org/s6Dpr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tss6Dpr)
Since these pic have been taken, I've completed the rear engine room and am fitting the brass port holes to this. The kit supplied white metal sky lights have ben painted and had the etched brass fittings added (more pics soon (honest!). Also completed is the tow hook stage. The tow hook (is that the right terminology?) has been painted matt black with the stage itself again spray in red anti foul. Doors have been glued in place and handles made from the kit supplied brass rod. Are the other 'locks' on water tight doors called 'dogs'? I've fitted these top and bottom.
Hope you enjoy!
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A few more pics to enjoy.
This is the stern capstan and motor housing(?). Sorry its a bit fuzzy!
(http://s2.postimage.org/HfsmA.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsHfsmA)
The capstan is made up from a hefty white metal piece and plastic sheet to make the motor housing(?) The instructions also say to use some of the stock wooden dowel to make the shaft from the motor to the capstan. This, because of the size would imo be a time consuming and difficult job as the dowel has to be cut to a length of about 15mm then, have a concave end cut so the dowel fits snugly against the round base the capstan sits on. I decided to use some plastic tubing of similar size. Much easier to use, shape and stick. Not sure why MSW dont provide the plastic tube tbh as its a far easier solution than cutting and shaping wooden dowel.
The base of the capstan is provided in the kit. its very hard tube about 25mm in length. Its the black bit under the capstan. The instructions say to cut this down to about 14mm in length. Now, if like me you dont have a band saw, cutting a 25mm long tube down to 14mm is very difficult. I dont know why MSW dont provide this pre cut since they obviously cut the 25mm length of tube themselves.
Ths next shot is of the lower wheel house superstructure. Quite a bit of work here for the cut outs. Although the instructions give some advice, its difficult to get a straight datum line because everything is curved. I measured and took line of sight views about 6 times before I was happy I'd got the front and back marked up correctly before cutting with the dremel.
(http://s2.postimage.org/HhDyr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsHhDyr)
This is the rear of the superstructure.
(http://s2.postimage.org/Hjsi0.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsHjsi0)
This next shot is of the wheelhouse.
(http://s2.postimage.org/HkcGJ.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsHkcGJ)
The flash on the camera makes it difficult to see the front properly but you can see a rather agricultural join along the top of the wheel house. A lot of rubbing down and filling here I think to get this to look good.
Finally, a shot of the lower superstructure and wheelhouse.
(http://s2.postimage.org/Hlc2i.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsHlc2i)
Again, I think I'll be putting in quite a bit of work on these two items to get them ready for painting and fitting.
Hope you enjoy. BTW, Im not meaning to be critical of MSW with any comments here, Im just offering my perspective on things.
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Moving on with the build again. Previous pics included the front superstructure which the instructions say need a lot of work. And they are not kidding! The superstructure is made from 2 FG components made from quite thick matting. The wheelhouse needs most work to cut out for front and side windows. The WH is also supposed to have a rear window each side of the bridge wings. But, on my wheelhouse, one bridge wing is wider than the other so the white metal window frame fits with room to spare while the other most definitely wont. So, Im considering not fitting the port and starboard wing windows.
This pic shows the forward end with deck fitted but not stuck down yet. The susperstructure has work still need to remove the moulded joint line, windows and roof etc.
(http://s3.postimage.org/4N_gr.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9qebvq6c/)
This is the view from the bow showing the wheelhouse which needed a lot of work to fit the front window. The white metal frame had a flange along the top (or bottom!) and the sides. This suggested the frame should be fitted from the inside of the wheelhouse but isnt confirmed in the instructions. However, the FG matting at the front and roof of the wheelhouse is very thick and would need considerable and careful work with a dremel to thin the FG enough for the frame to fit.
I considered this too difficult to do, would take far too long and more importantly, leave very little FG in the required area. So, I decided to remove the flanges from the window frames and with careful filing, these can be made a tight push fit before gluing with CA.
Final picture for today is the funnel. And, what an impressive piece of work this is. Its taller than I imagined. Mould lines need to be rubbed down and filled. Two hefty white metal fittings sit atop the funnel and bottom. The plan instructions show the need to make several small cuts around the base of the funnel as the bottom ring wont fit otherwise. Careful measurement and cuts with the dremel made this an fairly easy job even if I had to add a few more cuts before the base could be squeezed on.
The top although looking far easier to fit did cause me a few head scratching moments as although only 4 cuts are needed to match the 'pegs' on the white metal top, I couldnt get this to fit or look right! In the end, I filled down the pegs on the white metal ring to make it sit right. (I think!)
(http://s3.postimage.org/4P8BA.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9rqagshw/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/4R9OS.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9u2mvhok/)
PS Sorry, the picture postings has gone to pot and wont work as intended! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! <:(
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It's all coming along very nicely. It's interesting to see this go together as I have an Envoy but didn't build it. It is one of my favourite models though and handles extreemly well on the water.
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Cheers BB :-))
Just reading through my last post made me realise it wasnt just the photos that didnt post properly! My grammar and typing wasnt too hot either. Must try better for next time! :}
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Was it really over 2 months since I last posted about Dirty Harry!?
Anyway, here are some more shot of the build. The build from midships aft is now virtually all but complete. I have stuck down items such as the vents, long cable locker etc as I want to put some satin varnish on when she's completely finished. So, all that needs doing on the stern is adding the name, gluing down the deck furniture and adding the brass portholes along both sides of the engine room casing.
Some of the vents may look at a jaunty angle but thats because they arent glued in yet. I've also added some rust effect on the vents. I thnk they look quite good but not sure if I'll keep the look as I'd have to attack the engine room casing and Im not convinced that would look as good! Have to give that some thought.
Anyway, for your deliction
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o2ua4ax0/Stern_on_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o2ua4ax0/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o2vxnnes/Stern_on_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o2vxnnes/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o30w9ow4/Stern_on_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o30w9ow4/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/t6nncqec/Stern_on_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t6nncqec/)
Happy Crimbo! :-))
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Hmmmm.
For some reason they didnt post right. Here's another go!
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o468pd8k/Stern_on_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o468pd8k/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o4b7bepw/Stern_on_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o4b7bepw/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o4g5xg78/Stern_on_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o4g5xg78/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2o4htgsp0/Stern_on_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2o4htgsp0/)
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More pics coming soon. Honest!
Done quite a bit of work on Dirty Harry and the build is nearing completion!
BTW, a little disappointing MSW have removed their gallery shots. It was a great source of information not to say great builds!
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OK. a couple of teaser pictures of the Dirty Harry MSW Envoy class tug.
The first shot from the port side shows the forward superstructure and midship section. Lower port holes are not yet fitted, neither are the forward railings from the bow to the front of the superstructure. Windows are also not yet fitted. Rigging is still to be completed. The ships boat covers where painted matt but came out glossy! The tin is clearly matt so something must have gone wrong at the factory. Had to spray them with matt varnish to flatten them.
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH1.JPG)
Second shot is from the starboard.
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH2.JPG)
Thanks for looking in!
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Very nice indeed :-)) :-)) :-))
Geoff
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Cheers Geoff.
Im going to get a few more pics up soon but the work area (sorry, breakfast table) is a bit of a mess what with all the off cuts, paint pots and tools etc lieing (sp?) around!
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Here we go, some more pictures of Dirty Harry MSW Envoy class tug.
(http://s3.postimage.org/omw2iq10/Bow1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/omw2iq10/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/on5zqszo/Front.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/on5zqszo/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/onaycuh0/Front2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/onaycuh0/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/one9fjgk/Midships2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/one9fjgk/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/onfwyvyc/Bow_View.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/onfwyvyc/)
The build stage is now virtually complete apart from a little fettling. Then its fitting the electrics and steam generator!
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Looks very nice indeed, Dave. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Hi what paint colour did you use for the hull......phil
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Hi what paint colour did you use for the hull......phil
I used Plastikote large rattle cans for all the main painted area. The hull bottom and decks used the matt red oxide primer. Above the waterline I used the satin black. Superstructure and bulwarks are matt white primer.
The oxide and black went on really well but the matt white primer didnt cover very well and needed lots of coats to hide even the slightest mark on the fg superstructure, engine room and funnel.
Fortunately there's lots of paint in the large cans!
HTH.
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Some more pics of my Dirty Harry, MSW Envoy build. She's now almost finished (IMO). Just got a couple more lockers to paint and stick down.
Radio is Futaba 3 channel 40Mhz FM steerwheel with micro rx. rudder servo, electronize esc (set to HF so there's no interference, still no response from electronize either!) driving an MFA geared motor. Two individual 12v 4amp SLA's one driving the motor while the other SLA is put through a converter to step up to 24v output for the Foggy Mk 2 (thanks to Mark and MMB!).
I reckon there's about 5 kilo of lead in her to bring her down to the water line. I decided not to position the liferafts on the rigging since the cord supplied is very thin and I thought getting the rigging without any 'sag' while still being able to remove it to take the centre section off the boat wouldnt be easy.
Weather here is gales force winds due to that hurricane and it looks like its going to be Thursday according to the forecast before it is suitable for sailing on Fleetwood Lake.
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH7.JPG)
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH6.JPG)
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH5.JPG)
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH4.JPG)
(http://www.connected.adsl24.co.uk/DH3.JPG)
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Sorry, folks. Looks like my previous hosting company realised I stopped paying them nearly a year ago but hadnt suspended the account! They have only now deleted the account and all the pics. I'll try and reload some via the Mayhem pic options.
(http://s2.postimage.org/100cajc9w/DH3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/100cajc9w/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/fozut3t0/DH4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fozut3t0/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/fpbfkj9g/DH5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fpbfkj9g/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/fpeqn890/DH6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fpeqn890/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/fqgs07lw/DH7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fqgs07lw/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/fr5l2f0k/DSCF0015.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fr5l2f0k/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/frdur5hg/DSCF0017.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/frdur5hg/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/frw1nyx0/Bow_View.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/frw1nyx0/)
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You can send them to me on a CD or a few at a time via mail. :-)
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You can send them to me on a CD or a few at a time via mail. :-)
Cheers, Martin :-))
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Here are some pictures from Fleetwood Lake today of Dirty Harry's first voyage. Sorry if the pictures are a little small, wife still cant handle a digital camera or steer the boat while I take the pics!
Unfortunately, although I thought the rudder servo was set up, when I switched the RC on I found it had a bit of port applied but this was soon corrected.
(http://s1.postimage.org/116fhgwck/DH10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/116fhgwck/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/116isjlc4/DH11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/116isjlc4/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/116kg2xtw/DH12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/116kg2xtw/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/117psim6c/DH13.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/117psim6c/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/1181da1ms/DH14.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1181da1ms/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/118l7q7k4/DH15.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/118l7q7k4/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/1191r3ohw/DH16.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1191r3ohw/)
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What did you use to get the rivet effect.........spot of glue?
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What did you use to get the rivet effect.........spot of glue?
I used a syringe and neat pva glue applied direct to the fibre glass hull. The rivets are well oversized and I think applying them direct to the FG kind of made them spread a bit more than expected. Next time, I'd apply an undercoat to the hull then apply the pva rivets via the syring and a non sharp needle (its effectively a thin tube) to get smaller sized rivets.
Even so, I reckon there's something like 2500 to 3500 rivets on the hull and unless you get some old salt casting a critical eye over them, the people who have seen Dirty Harry up close were impressed and didnt comment on them being larger than expected. It took a long time to apply them as after 30 to 40 minutes, the hand would start shaking and I'd go crossed eyed!
I've got MMB's foggy mark 2 fitted in and working now. So if the weather is nice, Harry may get her bottom wet again at the weekend (hope the Fleetwood Lake has had some more water pumped into it as the level was lower than normal and putting a boat in weighing 25 pounds or whatever nearly put my back out!
HTH