Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: tonyH on May 06, 2010, 12:29:55 pm
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Just to give an idea of the pointy thing, some photos of work-in progress on Arquebuse.
Hull is 2.5mm balsa on 3mm ply frames with a single layer of glass fibre tissue on the inside and 2 layers of dope/tissue paper externally. Running gear is from George Sitek (You can see the overlap of the props). Other bits from odds & ends including cigar tins, beer cans etc.....
Tony
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Very nice indeed Tony, keep us posted.
Colin
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What's that spar on the front for?
..... don't bother, we've had that argument! ok2
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Sweet!
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Looks like it's taking shape very nicely!
Have you run the model yet? It'll be interesting to see how it performs on the water with a hull form like that (looks like the late 19th century French Navy applied the "extreme tumblehome" design principle just as enthusiastically to smaller craft as to capital ships); it looks like it'd make a good sub with the addition of dive planes!
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Thanks for the 'sub' bit Mr P,
I'm trying to have a test sail before the Mayhem weekend but I managed to bust one of the drive reduction belts (don't ask) so ...
I've tried to reduce the water ingress by making the main hatch wedge shaped but it could be a 'wet' boat in more than one sense :embarrassed:
Tony
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I wonder what the turning circle will be ...If she will turn .
Freebooter {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
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That really is a very pretty ship. I'm envious!
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Any more pictures Tony?
I've been giving some of the old dorment grey cells a bit of a shakeup (they were really shocked and gave me a headache fore my troubles) When you get the old froggy sardine can in the wet stuff try steaming her astern at about 1/4 to 1/2 speed and see how she handles I think she may have a smaller turning circle going astern with that rudder layout
Jimmy
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WOW!!! Awesome... i have always had a thing turn of the century warships. Where did you manage to get plans of that ship? Can't wait to see more updates :}
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Thanks Reid, but photos can be a bit deceptive!!!
The original plans came from the French Ministere de la Marine and can be downloaded for free. There are a few photos on line.
I'll try and take some more photos tomorrow, assuming I can get my camera back from my daughter >:-o
Tony
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Flying deck is on and I've started the edge supports. All the deckhouses are in place and the secondary armament is there. Loads more bits to add including 70 or so stanchions, ladders, cranes, awnings and, of course, the crew.
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Superb , which musem will she be displayed in.
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Thanks Dave, but when they see that all the flying deck grating is made with kitchen roll, they might start to ask questions....... :embarrassed:
Tony
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Don't tell them
Jimmy
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OHH..great just like real one....yes...thanks for sharing...
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Tony
Simply superb-
I just found this thread--I am overjoyed with your work. I am in process of shaping the hull for the USS Cushing- the first US torpedo boat destroyer...Mine is 1:24 scale and will be live steam ( twin props too) with some extra width for stability - 50" x 8".
I am a big fan of this hull design... I love your boat .. The overlapping props are awesome .
I WILL WATCHING EVERY INSTALLMENT- Keep it coming! :-))
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Thanks each and sorry for the delay but there aren't any significant changes at the moment 'cos I'm making yet more bits (anchors, ship's boats, ventilators, cranes etc.etc.) to add. I've just been advised that the 100 stanchions are in the post (James Lane specials) and once I've got them I can start fitting out fully.
Mo, when are we going to see the pics of the Cushing? Or have I missed a thread somewhere? Good Luck with the build and especially all the fittings. I think that, apart from the stanchions, chains and running gear, all will have been scratch built.
Thanks for the 'hint' Jim. We can decide on that bit at the lakeside ok2
Thanks to you Rathikrishna for sharing your builds with us as well. It's a great forum with some of the nicest people you could wish to chat with.
Tony
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Tony..
I am just a beginner. I have been restoring steam boats for a few years but this is my actual first build. I am carving a foam plug for the hull- it will be fiberglassed and the plug removed. I haven't done a thread here as the results are uncertain and this is a talented group- so a little uneasy till I know if I have anything to share. When I get further I may feel more confident to share.
Back to your wonderful build!!
Cheers
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Tony
Simply superb-
I just found this thread--I am overjoyed with your work. I am in process of shaping the hull for the USS Cushing- the first US torpedo boat destroyer...Mine is 1:24 scale and will be live steam ( twin props too) with some extra width for stability - 50" x 8".
I am a big fan of this hull design... I love your boat .. The overlapping props are awesome .
I WILL WATCHING EVERY INSTALLMENT- Keep it coming! :-))
Sorry fellows--I must have been asleep...not 1:24....1:35 scale.. ----if you disregard the 8" beam ..it should be closer to 5"...but I didn;t want to swamp her when turning..
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Don't worry Mo, I get the feeling that most of us are beginners in one way or another on the forum. It's just that some of us have had more practice at making mistakes %%.
What steam plant are you planning on using to keep the weight down that far? Cushing is a beautiful design and she'll look amazing on the water at speed - congratulations on the choice of project.
Just started on the stanchions - a VERY boring job!
Tony
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Thanks Dave, but when they see that all the flying deck grating is made with kitchen roll, they might start to ask questions....... :embarrassed:
Tony
Tony just to clarify this statement.."Kitchen roll"...... is the non-skid stuff for drawers and shelves??
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Kitchen roll is disposable tissue paper. Much like an oversized roll of toilet paper :)
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Kiitos Essex2visuvesi for replying,
Sorry Mo, I didn't spot your mail.
Yes, the kitchen roll is thick adsorbent paper used for mopping up spills but it's laminated and the laminations are, in this case, punched together using a square dot punch roller that had EXACTLY the right pitch for the job. OK, I know that the holes on a grating should go right through, but who's counting?
I stuck it on cereal packet card with spray adhesive (trying to keep the design square), soaked it with very thin resin used for wood repairs and then painted it with a coat of acrylic wood varnish. Once that had dried, I used a very thin black wash of Warhammer paint which dropped into the 'holes' and that was it.
Tony
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Kiitos Essex2visuvesi for replying,
Sorry Mo, I didn't spot your mail.
Yes, the kitchen roll is thick adsorbent paper used for mopping up spills but it's laminated and the laminations are, in this case, punched together using a square dot punch roller that had EXACTLY the right pitch for the job. OK, I know that the holes on a grating should go right through, but who's counting?
I stuck it on cereal packet card with spray adhesive (trying to keep the design square), soaked it with very thin resin used for wood repairs and then painted it with a coat of acrylic wood varnish. Once that had dried, I used a very thin black wash of Warhammer paint which dropped into the 'holes' and that was it.
Tony
One has to admire your ingenuity
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You two are so helpful...... "paper towels " is the term in my head... O0
Nice procedure...beats trying to punch out holes of make grating from scratch for sure
Tony I has seen the soldering iron tip you manufactured to melt out the pattern for the grating support beams-- great idea...I had been wondering about grating materials and I had thought of using fiberglass screen material found on this side of the pond at home improvement stores for window and door screens. Making a plasticard framework and laying the screen on top ( with perhaps a few coats of paint to thicken up the mesh... a few test panels will let me know if that will work as designed...
Regarding your question elsewhere about the method of firing the torpedo's from the tubes ...any definite answers yet??..I had seen slow burning powder referred to in a few web searches- and compressed air as well....I had never really thought about the mechanism till you stated the question...
It is odd-- with the supply of steam on board in great quantities..the evolution from cold pressure for torpedo propulsion to "hot" pressure, why didn't employ the steam driven piston the force the torpedo into action?? Just an steam amateurs question - as I am sure there are many learned ones out there that can answer with many obvious reasons that escape me.. :embarrassed:
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Ingenuity - No Way but miserlyness >:-o based on the refusal to pay $100 or so for proper gratings! Isn't that the fun of scratch-building %%
Your idea should work well, Mo. It's all just a case of whatever works at the approximate scale in all these things. I know that my aim is to build something that looks fairly right and where the only thing I have to buy is the glue. Hasn't worked yet though!
As far as the torpedo tubes are concerned, I still have no hard evidence but one of the deck photos shows what seems to be a high pressure hose strung along the after deck stanchions towards the stern and about a foot above the deck. It's not just hung there but tied on as if it were a semi-permanent fitting - i.e. not a fire hose or anything for instant flexibility. It couldbe a connection but I've no way yet of knowing.
I'll put the pic on later so you can have a look
Tony
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I saw the picture you posted of the tube mount elsewhere... Good luck on arriving at your determination of method.
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Most of the bits are on - at least on one side :embarrassed:
Now to turn the beast around and start again.
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Very crisp & sharp detailing tonyH ........ :-)) ....Derek
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Excellent progress...The grating really looks great with the brown contracting color.. :-)) Just out of curiosity..
Is it an optical illusion that the torpedo tubes appear lower than the stanchions and cables? I was wondering how they would shoot over/ through them..? I assume it is an officers WC enclosure at the Port aft ? I would hate to be in there when the rear tube was need to aimed in that direction :o
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Nice one Tony,
The Gratings really stand out . {:-{and the boarding ladder really emphasizes curve of the deck migrating to the ships shell plates.. O0. Superbly done
Freebooter :-))
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Cheers Chaps, still a way to go but it's getting there.
Sorry Mo, port side is steerage class heads only (2 between 54). Awficers (1 between 4) to starboard to be fitted but I've got to amend them 'cos I've just found detailed drawing of the plumbing! As far as use during torp firing is concerned, I don't think that Health and Safety was around in those days so the heads came down along with most of the rails.
I'm pleased you like the grating. It does seem to work at that scale.
Crew figures (Russians to be converted) got today so all I need to actually buy now is the anchor chain and the flag!
Tony
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It Doze seem a shame after all your work (good British workman ship what!) that you should have to put a French flag on her ... {:-{ on 2nd thought and on reflection of the way she handels O0 Yes you should stick a tricolour on her as soon as possible {-) {-)
Freebooter
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Nah, the steering problem is down to another matter. If you look at the focal point on the attached, you'll see what I mean :-))
(http://s3.postimage.org/lktwr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pqlktwr)
On the chest outside the galley is what I mean - not the gun!!!!
Sorry, the image is a bit small but I'm sure its claret
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{-) Maybe it steadied the hands of the gunners!!! Good eyes.
Hey Tony a quick question...did you apply your fiber coat over your model hul all at once? By this I mean , since the hull has curvature on top without the usual edge between the hull and decking - did you apply the cloth and resin or epoxy to the topside at the same time as the bottom? Then just sanded off the drips as one side did have the force of gravity pulling in its favor .
I hope you get what I am aiming for- I am getting closer to that step with my hull ( I also will most likely melt out the foam plug as mine has the rounded forecastle and rear decking.)
thanks for any enlightenment
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Hi Mo,
Luckily the original photo is a lot bigger, it's just that I mucked up the reduction :embarrassed:
As far as the hull is concerned, I only used fibreglass tissue/resin on the inside once I'd planked up to about 3/4 height. I stuck the cloth in sections first with spray adhesive just to locate it and then brushed the resin on with a brush head on a stiff wire handle so I could bend it and get into the corners.
The outside was done with tissue from a local art shop with a good brushing of aircraft dope. 2 caots in most places and 3 in some. Then just a fine sand off with 600 grit and another couple of coats of dope.
Tony
PS
I just had another thought about how you could atttack it. Before I made this verion, I made a small one (1:72) about 2ft long. I split the frames in half along the centre line, planked each half separately and then joined the two halves together, basically gluing along the keel and the centre of the deck line.
I don't know whether you could just put yours on a band saw, cut along the length and do the same sort of thing. In fact I'm sure that there's a pic on the other 'pointy thing' thread showing this being done with another model.
Tony
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Since I am not wanting to make more hulls from this plug- I am proceeding towards a sacrificial plug :
Fiber / epoxy( so as not to melt plug with resin) the hull ( top and bottom)
After thickness is achieved, add acetone or similar to the inside and melt the blue foam out of the way. I may add another layer inside once I assess.
Trim up the openings - add combing around the perimeter of my engine compartment
Frame out as needed for strength and mounting of ballast, engine / boiler mounting plate , outdrive gearbox etc. epoxy in rudder tube and locate prop shafts and struts
Construct the lift-off superstructure
etc..
Sorry to fill your thread with is off-topic dribble.. I will not continue after this and will start my own thread :embarrassed:
FWIW- After looking at the torpedo tube pictures you posted - and posed the question---I have been scouring archives on early US , UK and French navy torpedo methods. The area under the "loading end" of your tubes sure look to be connected to a section of linkage as opposed to a tube to deliver pressure.
I am strongly leaning towards a cordite charge that is initiated by that "firing linkage" connected to the trigger hidden in the the protrusions you refer to.
So vote to cordite!!
Thanks again for sharing your thread on your wonderful and timely build and your friendly and helpful answers
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Don't worry Mo, the thread's only a framework for stuff that's in the same ballpark. I certainly would not class your posts as ' off-topic dribble'!
I was only thinking of splitting the plug down the centre so you would not have to tidy up the sides, only the keel and, possibly, a bit on the top.
From what I've seen on your web site, you won't have any trouble whatever way you do it :-))
I look forward to seeing the rest of the build.
Thanks for the input on the TT's. I'm pretty certain you're right but I keep on finding new details on the plans that keep on coming out of the woodwork. It's always the same that the best data is always after the part is done {:-{
Tony
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Almost there. Added 'stuff' such as crew, boats etc. All that's left now is anchor chains, flag, a few more matelots and 2 bottles of vin ordinaire - one at 1:36 and one at 1:1!
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Tony
Nice job... No reflection on you,( you've done a marvelous job)--- {:-{ and this could only be said about a French Warship ---But I think she looks very pretty %) :} %% :-))
Freebooter ;)
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My Daughters dared me to post that last tidbit
Jimmy
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Excellent model, very envious.
Could put photos on right way round though.
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Fabulous work and results Tony..maybe a a broadside shot if you please..only for my selfish wants!
MAYBE A GRATUITOUS TOUR OF THE WHOLE SHIP NOW THAT ALL DETAILS ARE INTACT...
As Oliver Twist once said ..." Please, I would like a bit more Sir"
thanks
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What's the big Q-stick on the front for?
... oh, we done that already. %)
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Down Boy ,,, Put it back in the box Martin
Freebooter
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Wadja Mean Jim, She's not PRETTY - she's a mean fightin' machine!!! or my name's not Antoine!!!
Just 'cos she's got style and the biggest decision made on board is which wine to have for lunch (see attached) %%
Next pic's Mo will be when she's finished and sur l'eau. I'll e-mail the onboard inspection set rather than posting them on here.
Martin, I've still got the mini version for you to play with in the bath Martin - plastic duckies should beware :-))
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%% %% %% O0 {-)
That shot is priceless. Thanks Antoine - let me know if you do not have my email addy :-))
I just received a few new books on the early torpedo boats and I am deep in savoring details! The book "The First Destroyers " By David Lyon is really nice with a small set of plans for the Vosper included as an insert
cheers and she is something to behold...BTW-did your ship have a bow rudder like some of the English destroyers???
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Still looks pretty to me and I've not been on the horrid frog red stuff {only my normal Pinkers or a G & T}
Hic! Jimmy
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Hi Mo,
No bow rudder. That's why she's such a dog to drive as Jimmy J will confirm - with or without the gin O0
David Lyons book is excellent. It's only a pity that Greenwich chare so much for proper drawings. Thats why I've gone continental - they're free.
The chef, by the way, started as a Russian as did all the crew.
Tony
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Tony,
As another fellow with a 1:36 scale project (http://todd.mainecav.org/model/constellation) in the works I'd like to add my BRAVO! and congratulate you on your excellently executed model and choice of subject.
I'm a big fan of adding life to a model with figures and wondered where yours came from; scratch? modded 1:35 kits? I'm hoping to have some 20-30 mid-1850's sailors, officers, and marines on my boat and I've been keeping an eye out for figures to base them on - yours are a wonderful enhancement to the model.
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Hi Mo,
No bow rudder. That's why she's such a dog to drive as Jimmy J will confirm - with or without the gin O0
David Lyons book is excellent. It's only a pity that Greenwich chare so much for proper drawings. Thats why I've gone continental - they're free.
The chef, by the way, started as a Russian as did all the crew.
Tony
I am embarrassed now--I just received the Book, The First Destroyers. I see that the mention of the bow rudder was ill given. They were only extended and used when moving in reverse... not for aid in forward motion steering. :embarrassed:
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Hi Mo,
Part of the problem with bow rudders was that half of the TB's and destroyers at the time had them and half didn't. It seems also that when they were fitted as part of the original build someone came along later and either removed them or fixed them in place so don't always count on any drawings or photos that come up. There was a lot of competition between builders in England, France and Germany especially to get their designs into the export markets for fighting vessels and so you see, for example, the bow bumper (or the pointy thing that started this ball rolling) on ships in Japan and Russia.
Jerry, Thanks for the comments and we need more of you on Mayhem. Your 'project' looks stunning and, to be very honest, puts mine in the shade. I'm afraid that my finishing is not all that it could be and that photos can be very deceptive O0
The figures are modified 1:35 Russian naval infantry, because the officer jackets are shorter than normal and so suit those of the period. I get all mine from a large warehouse near to me so I can drop in and see the real thing before buying. It could be worth having a look at their site www.hannants.co.uk because they must have one of the largest selections you could wish for. My last project was the 1881 Greek gunboat Ambrakia which had a modified German crew (There's a pic somewhere on Mayhem)
My next project is a 1:32 brigantine, so I'll be following some of your techniques closely.
Tony
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Tony
I see what you mean - but in the book - the original dialogue form the head of ship procurement detailed that many of the early "turbine" boats relied on smaller counter rotating turbines or some smaller piston engines to drive reverse direction and that the poor speed at which they could achieve reverse also enhanced their poor reverse -steering . So the effort to try to use a bow rudder just for use in those situations. Those coal-loving turbines caused a lot of excitement and consternation to the designers.
At least that is what the dialogue Mr Lyons notes. Undoubtedly it was time of experimentation and I bety more than a couple tried to see if they would enhance forward steering also..
The reading( Of the First Destroyers) is proving more interesting than I thought it would be and shows that there were so many miss-steps with these small ships. Especially ion sea-worthiness ( or lack there of ) vibration and actual lack of use in the torpedoes.
cheers
greg
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Using a bow rudder while going ahead at anything other than the very slowest pace would have put an enormous strain on the mechanism.
Colin
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Aye, especially since, or so it seems, steering engines were yet to become common and it was all done with rods and cogs. That's why Arquebuse and her sisters tried the rudder before the props - to reduce the stress. At least further back in time they had the option of relieving tackles to the rudder.
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Colin
That was logic I arrived at after my first post..and then went back and read that they were only deployed( cranked down into place) for reversing maneuvers only.. I knew I had posted too quickly and not read the words in front of me.
Tony
The Turbinia also had a an odd rudder placement- off the center line and just before the last set of propellers( and aft of the first two sets ) I wonder if she suffered form a wide arc for coming about??
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Tony
I've had some experance (IN the 60's) with bow rudders ...they work ok when going astern but you dare not go ahead at more then 2 or 3 knots with out the locking pins in or the rudder will override the steering motors and jam hard over ---Putting the locking pins in (They are solid steel 6" in Dia and about 5 feet long ) Is a real pain in the back side... you are working in a tiny room (About the size of a wardrobe) 2 decks down the forepeak trying to line up the rudder by hand and drop 2 huge pins into the sockets with the Old man screaming that he's got to come ahead or he'll run us up the beach and why the hell are we doing taking so long . [[British Rail Ferrys out of Harwich]]
Jimmy
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its..greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt......unbelievable...