Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: DickyD on May 10, 2010, 05:33:06 PM

Title: Credit Surcharge
Post by: DickyD on May 10, 2010, 05:33:06 PM
I have just bought some items off Deans Marine.

The service was very good, ordered Friday and received today.

As you know Deans are not the cheapest but their motors and props etc are excellent quality.

So far so good, I spent approximately £80.00, fine.

Then on my bill is an item £2.39 credit surcharge.

Whats this all about, I have never had this item on an invoice from any of the many other suppliers I deal with ?

Why a surcharge when I am buying mail order ? How else am I supposed to pay over the phone ?  >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 10, 2010, 05:38:39 PM
Richard, there is a statement on the Deans site stating that there will be a surcharge for certain types of payment. Presumably they are trying to recover some of what many retailers consider to be the excessive transaction fees charged by the credit card companies. This is becoming very common now, particularly in the travel industry. Use a credit card and there is a surcharge, use a debit card and there probably won't be but you get no protection on orders over £100. Some retailers absorb the cost or it is reflected in higher prices, others show it as an extra which you could argue is being transparent as long as it is spelled out when you buy.

No doubt FLJ can give us a bit of chapter and verse on that.

Colin
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 10, 2010, 05:41:10 PM
Dicky,
You could just "pop" up there.
And you called me a cheapskate!!!!

Bob
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Mankster on May 10, 2010, 05:43:23 PM
That will be the 3% paypal fee for paying via Paypal I suspect.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: DickyD on May 10, 2010, 06:09:19 PM
I paid by credit card and to my way of thinking they should cover this in their prices, or I could be like Bob and be a cheapskate and go elsewhere.

I dont pay a surcharge on MFA/COMO drills motors from Cornwall Model Boats and they are nearly as good and a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 10, 2010, 06:39:17 PM
There are differing views on this Richard. If some methods of payment are more expensive than others, which they are, then should the purchaser foot the extra or should the costs be spread across all customers. Tricky point isn't it?

Colin
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: dbninja on May 10, 2010, 08:38:53 PM
mmmmm!

ever tried buying tickets to the theatre without being rammed with hidden charges...

you can only buy them online/over the phone

flight booking is going the same way... >>:-(



db
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: cos918 on May 10, 2010, 10:14:23 PM
Thank you Dicky
I was not aware some retailers are doing this.

John
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Robert Davies on May 10, 2010, 10:56:10 PM

Dicky,

I have to completely agree with you.

If you paid by cheque, Dean's bank would charge them for the pleasure of banking it, ditto if you paid by good old folding stuff, then there are the hidden costs of banking, actually going to the bank, the cost of fuel to do so, the time that it takes to do so whilst not doing other more productive things - there is also the security aspect of handling sizeable chunks of cash, be it five pounds or five hundred pounds, there *will* be someone willing to hit you over the head for it - Trust me I know...

Why penalise the customer when it could easily be absorbed into the general costs of doing business (rent, rates etc etc) and distributed across the product price range.

People who charge me to do business with them rarely see any business from me, and ditto those who make it difficult to do business with.

How much business will Dean's lose because of their surcharge policy? More than their surcharges?

-Rob


Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 10, 2010, 11:22:40 PM
Rob,

Having spoken to traders at various times I know that some of them are being hammered by the costs of offering credit card options compared with traditional payment methods. It's not just the transaction fee but also the cost of 'hiring' the processing equipment which can be a substantial amount.

Such costs are not 'easily absorbed' even by larger organisations. For smaller traders they make substantial inroads into profits. My local independent travel agent has had to impose modest credit card surcharges otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay in business.

The real blame lays with the big financial organisations who are continuing to shaft their customers, business and private, left right and centre to maintain their excessive profits. I think it's a bit unfair to blame traders like Deans and others in the circumstances.

Colin
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on May 10, 2010, 11:31:52 PM

You are not alone.  >:-o
It is also happening here in Oz. >>:-(
Bottom line it will only continue whilst buyers pay up.  <*<
You, the consumer are in control go elsewhere or pay the "extras"  <:(
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 10, 2010, 11:37:23 PM
When you go to shows, there are some traders who will only accept cash to avoid the credit card company charges. It's the only way to keep their prices down.

Colin
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on May 11, 2010, 12:54:11 AM
Because I have only used Paypal in long distance transaction, I used to charge a fee to cover the costs.
But nipping the customer for that extra $1 to $3 dollars felt wierd, so I just attributed it to cost of business.
It is a deductable cost...

However, today I billed a customer, and he added $5 to his payment.
He knew that paying through Paypal charged fees to me, so he added it on his own accord.

 :-))
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: poddy on May 11, 2010, 07:45:11 AM
I too had a slightly peeving experience with Deans.

Ordered their catalogue, paid extra for 1st class delivery (cause I wanted it bad) and agreed to pay 3% more for using paypal. I waited and I waited some more. About 10 days later it arrived.

They sent it 2nd class and charged me 3.5% for using paypal. The catalogue is not printed on particularly good paper and contains several discrepancies and mistakes.

I guess it was a cheap way to get an insight into the level of professionalism of a company that I was, and am, thinking of buying from.

Cornwall on the other hand has been a very good experience. Emails to say items are being dispatched and quick delivery.

I did happen to notice that Cornwall sells Graupner E600's for about the same price as a Dean's kestrel.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 11, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
We couldn't survive as a mail-order business without the facility to accept credit and debit cards. This facility costs us around £30/month plus the transaction fees. We absorb both of these costs into our general business expenses and - of course - we allow for them when pricing the items which we sell.

At the moment we are charged just shy of 2% for credit card transactions, while debit cards are a flat-rate fee per transaction (about 22p) so we prefer them for higher value sales.

PayPal is much more expensive but, for a "normal" sale e.g. <£100, we also absorb that charge. However, when you start talking about a £300+ order via PayPal (who actually do little else except "launder" the customer's card number) then that cost becomes significant. 20p plus 3.4% of £300 = £10.40. In such circumstances we try to encourage the customer to use the credit card direct with us instead of paying a third party. In all events the mode of payment is down to the customer and all we feel we should do is point out the choices and any additional costs involved in them (check out the comments on our Homepage about bank transfers).

What we don't do is ambush a customer with a finance charge which he isn't expecting. Any trader who does that runs the risk of losing the trust of his customers and so losing their business - just see the comments above.

"When you go to shows, there are some traders who will only accept cash to avoid the credit card company charges. It's the only way to keep their prices down." I can hear your tongue stuck in your cheek, Admiral!!

Caveat emptor, dudes.  8)

FLJ
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Robert Davies on May 11, 2010, 11:17:13 AM

Thanks Dave (sincerely) for that informed posting - ie a view from the other side of the counter. On seeing a reply from a trader, I was half expecting a 'Times is hard and you're all a bunch of ingrates' response.

Times *are* hard, and for anyone that sticks an 'ambush' charge on any of my bills they are going to get harder.

-Rob

ps. To Dicky, where you informed about the credit charge whilst your order was taken on the 'phone? If not, a call to your credit card company may be in order - unauthorised charge - perhaps?
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: DickyD on May 11, 2010, 11:47:38 AM
Thanks Dave (sincerely) for that informed posting - ie a view from the other side of the counter. On seeing a reply from a trader, I was half expecting a 'Times is hard and you're all a bunch of ingrates' response.

Times *are* hard, and for anyone that sticks an 'ambush' charge on any of my bills they are going to get harder.

-Rob

ps. To Dicky, where you informed about the credit charge whilst your order was taken on the 'phone? If not, a call to your credit card company may be in order - unauthorised charge - perhaps?
No I wasn't informed on the phone and I did not see it on their web site, because I did not use their web site. >>:-(

I buy all my boat stuff on the internet and phone as I cant get out very easily and this has never occurred with anyone else.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Marks Model Bits on May 11, 2010, 11:56:29 AM
We are very much in the same camp as Dave (FLJ). We absorb the costs of such payments in our normal business expenses and we couldn't operate effectively without the facility to take electronic payments, but at the end of the day it is down to the customer how they want to pay and I would rather take Paypal (with its higher charges) than lose a sale and possibly a repeat customer as well!!!!


Mark (MMB)
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Marks Model Bits on May 11, 2010, 12:03:08 PM
We also don't profit from shipping charges!!!!!


Mark.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: The long Build on May 11, 2010, 12:48:12 PM
No I wasn't informed on the phone and I did not see it on their web site, because I did not use their web site. >>:-(

They are supposed to inform you that that there will be a surchage for using a credit card , its at this point when you can decide if you wish to proceed with the transaction..
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 11, 2010, 12:57:17 PM
Yes, I quite agree you should be told before confirming the transaction - I haven't bought from Deans over the net - but when I have booked ferry tickets or made a hotel booking there is usually a warning and an addition to the total before you press the 'submit' button. Of course not everybody adds it on as a separate amount but it is certainly common enough for me to look out for it when making online purchases. Being deaf I don't use the phone so can't comment on that.

Yes FLJ, bad choice of words there! What I meant was that some traders at shows don't take electronic payment citing credit card charges but I agree there could be other reasons too...

Colin
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: dodgy geezer on May 11, 2010, 03:17:47 PM
From a customer point of view, I prefer to use credit cards, because of the charging flexibility and the consumer protection they provide. The latter is less of an issue when dealing with Action Electronics, but useful in other transactions!

Debit cards and cash require me to organise bank transfers or cash withdrawals, which mean I can't buy when I want to. Paypal is ok for ebay, and quicker than a credit card, but if anything goes wrong Paypal look after themselves before either the seller or the buyer, and are impossible to contact.....

Making an extra charge depending on payment type is a big no-no in my book, and I don't buy from places that do so. For a seller, the price advertised is the major basis of the agreement with the buyer, and re-negotiating that leaves a very bad taste.

There is a balance to be struck, of course. If I insisted on paying with a money order written on the side of a cow in Milton Keynes I can see that a seller would be put to some unreasonable expense to cash it. But the job of a buyer is to consider all the reasonable running costs of a business and reflect them in his prices.   

Having said that, of course, there is equally no such thing as 'absorbing' the cost of a particularly difficult sale. Sellers do not have a cushion of extra money somewhere that they can use for this purpose. ALL the money they work with is provided by the buyers. When they say this, they are just noting that, on this sale, they will make less than average profit - maybe even a loss. And if they do this too often, they won't be in business. It's a bit like politicians offering a 'free' public service, paid out of taxes. Of course it isn't free - it just means that we are all paying...
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 11, 2010, 04:17:43 PM
You don't fly Ryanair then DG?  ok2
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Dean's Marine on May 11, 2010, 05:14:07 PM

What we don't do is ambush a customer with a finance charge which he isn't expecting. Any trader who does that runs the risk of losing the trust of his customers and so losing their business - just see the comments above.

  AMBUSH CUSTOMERS, ???   it looks like you did not bother to check your facts as well. ??
DIRECT COPY FROM THE FIRST PAGE OF OUR PRICE LIST AND OUR WEBSITE
 and you DO get told on the phone if you order and wish to pay with a credit card + it will be on the quote and the invoice, how plain can we make it.
  it is being honest and up front, the customers who pays with a bank transfer, debit card, electronic transfer, cash and cheques do NOT like  have "hidden" charges in the price to subsidise the customers who use credit cards.
  Order online, then change you mind, and phone the order in and say its a debit card, and its a credit card, then complain to try to get the charges back will not work either, if this cause any problems, phone it with a DEBIT card and we will refund all the not hidden charge to you.
 Its is being honest with the customers.
   Deans Marine
   
 
 
these Price lists are subject to change at any time! there will be a surcharge for certain payment types!

click on the relevant link to open the PDF price list

Please visit our Online Shop for all information and up to date Price’s
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: DickyD on May 11, 2010, 05:44:00 PM
I did not look at the price list or the web site.

I phoned and said what kit I was building and asked them to send the appropriate parts.

I was told they came to approximately £75.00 plus postage which I agreed to.

At no time was a surcharge mentioned.

OK, the surcharge wasn't much, it was the principle that got to me.

That apart the parts and service were excellent.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 11, 2010, 07:14:14 PM
AMBUSH CUSTOMERS, ???   it looks like you did not bother to check your facts as well. ??
Deans Marine
I have sent a PM to Deans Marine in reply to this comment et seq.
This post is simply to make the point that I didn't accuse anyone of ambushing customers; I simply stated that we  wouldn't do such a thing.
It's pretty clear when you read the written words, instead of the lines in between.
FLJ
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: dodgy geezer on May 11, 2010, 07:58:45 PM
You don't fly Ryanair then DG?  ok2

I only fly aircraft that I personally own....
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: The long Build on May 11, 2010, 08:39:00 PM
You don't fly Ryanair then DG?  ok2
Don't think Ryan Air are flying Ryan air much at the moment either !!   :}
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: Jonty on May 11, 2010, 09:08:50 PM
  The problem really lies with banks and card processing companies out to get their pound of flesh. I have a brilliant card processing deal through my trade association - £15 a month plus 13p for a debit card or 1.3% for a credit card...

  as long as the customer is in the shop. As soon as I put through a 'customer not present' sale the rate goes up almost to Paypal's extortionate level. Actually, 75% of my business is still cash, but that's no answer either. I'm charged for putting cash in the bank, charged for putting cheques in, and charged for getting change.

  These are heavy expenses for small businesses. With card use growing all the time though, I do think it is better just to whack the costs onto prices. I don't put on a surcharge every time my other costs go up.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on May 11, 2010, 11:03:52 PM

Look, the bottom line here is the price quoted is the price and is what forms the contract.  :-))
As someone has said if at the time of paying extra charges are added for whatever reason which were not disclosed at the time of tendering the price, means the contact is null and void and is subject to renegotiation. <*<
It is a coppout to say the costs are levied by banks, govt etc., >>:-( >>:-(  others don't, yes they may be included in the price but the price is what you pay no extras!  :police:
Give the customer the ALL UP price. <*<, :-))
Doesn't matter how good the product is, it still sneaky business. :police:
But remember once bitten twice shy., >:-o
After all it is up to the buyer to decide to do business with such a firm again.  O0
Me, well I don't.  >>:-( <*< <:(
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on May 12, 2010, 04:42:31 AM

   the customers who pays with a bank transfer, debit card, electronic transfer, cash and cheques do NOT like  have "hidden" charges in the price to subsidise the customers who use credit cards.
  Order on-line, then change you mind, and phone the order in and say its a debit card, and its a credit card, then complain to try to get the charges back will not work either, if this cause any problems, phone it with a DEBIT card and we will refund all the not hidden charge to you.
 Its is being honest with the customers.
   Deans Marine
   
Am I understnding this correctly, that you are saying that because a customer exercises freedom of choice in choosing a payment system you are offering, then other customers will subsidise that transaction.  
There used to be an item of expenditure called overheads as well as the item "PROFITS" that was taken into account when setting prices.
Why is this not an overhead cost????????????????????????????? that should be included in the price and not an "add on again" to be borne by the customer.
Is that good customer service.?????????????????
Because customers are trying to get around this charge"then complain to try to get the charges back /there is obviously a problem, maybe the solution is get rid of the probelm and apply good customer service.
Title: Re: Credit Surcharge
Post by: chingdevil on May 12, 2010, 12:22:48 PM
MODERATION

If you have any complaint with a supplier it should always be taken up with them, this forum is NOT and never has been the place to air your grievances against a supplier.

The thread in now locked

Brian
Global Moderator