Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Mess Deck: General Section => Tugs and Towing => Topic started by: hazmat on May 29, 2010, 07:55:29 AM

Title: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 29, 2010, 07:55:29 AM
I like to scratch build drawing up my own plans  from pictures of tugs and other places.
I'm currently building a 1/32 tug from plans drawn from IMC's Thrustliner concept tug.www.imcgroup.nl/downloads/ThrustLiner.pdf (http://www.imcgroup.nl/downloads/ThrustLiner.pdf)
I've been told that unless my tug is a scale model of an existing tug, I can't enter scale events.
Is this correct?



Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on May 29, 2010, 08:48:41 PM
What matters is what the event organizers say. 

If it's not a real vessel, and it's built so that all parts are reduced by the same ratio to the original, then it's a scale model.  In your case, though, it doesn't look like the fullsize vessel is even off the drawing board, so there aren't even complete plans to judge the scale aspect with. 
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: Adam on May 29, 2010, 09:21:07 PM
If it's not a real vessel, and it's built so that all parts are reduced by the same ratio to the original, then it's a scale model. 
Wrong, then its a model.
A scale model has an original.
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: knoby on May 29, 2010, 11:20:58 PM
An interesting question. Surely, in its truest form, a scale model is a miniature of the original. This would make it impossible to judge in an exact scale competition, there being no fullsize vessel to judge it against. However, most club regattas involve on the water judging during the steering competition, It would depend on what kind of competition you were entering.

scale models is often used as a generic term to define models that look like real vessels as opposed to functional models that are used for racing etc.

 Over the years I have seen many models entered in stand off scale competitions that were not models of any particular vessel, just representations of a type. In fact, if we are completely honest, very few models are exact miniatures of real vessels. I cant imagine any club would turn you away from entering a competition, even at national level, although I imagine you would suffer some point deductions from the scale judges if they were judging you model on the table.

It would be interesting to hear some comments from some of the qualified scale judges on this forum.

Just my thoughts on the matter

cheers Glenn
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: oldiron on May 29, 2010, 11:44:29 PM
  Which is the model and which is the prototype?  A prototype is generally considered the "first of" something. Successive versions would be copies or "models" of the prototype. Using that line of thought, your first build of that design would be the "prototype", any others built to that design would be the "models" regardless of scale.

my thoughts
John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 30, 2010, 04:13:32 AM
Interesting comments people.
Apart from the ARTF plastic models (I wish I had a credit card to buy one), Ive seen a lot of 'artistic license' being used over the years.
One could argue that not having opening doors. working winches, or using LED's is not 'true to scale' but that's getting a bit silly.

I was talking to a couple of experienced competition tug towing guys (the first stated that he was a judge at some events) whilst testing the carousel hull, I had two completely contrary views.
One said (The judge) "Its a 1/32 scale of a tug which has been built only as a concept tester BUT it is after all a tug" (I liked him!)
The second said "It's not a copy of a real tug and shouldn't be allowed". (Mmmmm!)

Curiously the argument raged (getting more heated as time went on) with me quietly looking on until the comment was made that "you just want it banned because the tug is more maneuverable than yours is!" <*<

It was at that point I gathered my work in progress and quietly got into the car. I don't think blood was shed (hopefully). :((

It's a bit like football I'm thinking. some people call it a game, to others it's a religion. Me, I just call tugging fun.

Paul
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on May 30, 2010, 08:41:23 AM
Making it for towing competitions is a whole other story.

If you want to enter competitions you should expect some sort of standards to be enforced.  Since most of the European events i've seen place maneuverability above all else*, there has to be something in place to keep people from going overboard.  

If you still wish to enter 'scale events' you should make a concerted effort to make it look like a scale model.  Take a look at Toesupwa's ''Modern Harbour Tug' thread.  Even though there is no exact fullsize equivalent to his design, he is outfitting it with all the details that will make it look like a model of a real ship.  

Just my two pennies worth...

*not a criticism, just an observation
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 30, 2010, 09:03:35 AM
Could you please put the link of the thread (Toesupwa's ''Modern Harbour Tug' thread) on the page for me.
Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on May 30, 2010, 09:16:37 AM
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22008.0 
 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22008.0)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108150
 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108150)More info on RCgroups

If he hadn't said otherwise, i'd have thought it was an exact model of a fullsize Crowley tug. 
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 30, 2010, 05:23:12 PM
thanks
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: poll on May 30, 2010, 11:24:40 PM
Interesting comments people.
Apart from the ARTF plastic models (I wish I had a credit card to buy one), Ive seen a lot of 'artistic license' being used over the years.
One could argue that not having opening doors. working winches, or using LED's is not 'true to scale' but that's getting a bit silly.

I was talking to a couple of experienced competition tug towing guys (the first stated that he was a judge at some events) whilst testing the carousel hull, I had two completely contrary views.
One said (The judge) "Its a 1/32 scale of a tug which has been built only as a concept tester BUT it is after all a tug" (I liked him!)
The second said "It's not a copy of a real tug and shouldn't be allowed". (Mmmmm!)

Curiously the argument raged (getting more heated as time went on) with me quietly looking on until the comment was made that "you just want it banned because the tug is more maneuverable than yours is!" <*<

It was at that point I gathered my work in progress and quietly got into the car. I don't think blood was shed (hopefully). :((

It's a bit like football I'm thinking. some people call it a game, to others it's a religion. Me, I just call tugging fun.


Paul

  Hi Paul,  Just curious to where this conversation took place and who the tug towing judges were? Also where did this test of the Carrousel take place. I think this carrousel tug was a free lancebuild just for towing  not for scale steering

John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 31, 2010, 12:44:11 AM
OK, I going to show my ignorance but I'm way beyond the age of caring anyway. O0
 I didn't know that there was a scale steering competition but I'll guess that there are 'classes' and design limits within each class.

Here's my thoughts on it though. %)
Take two tugs, exactly the same design  i.e. SMIT PANAMA ( I prefer the modern designs) but one very small say 1/96 scale and one at 1/32 competing against each other, I'd put my money on the little tug every time. The little boy should be more maneuverable as you've  less to 'throw around' in weight, size, and you'll get a better power to weight  ratio. I built a small Panama ASD 12" long (1/96 scale). The asd span it so fast I felt giddy let alone the little wooden helmsman I'd put in the seat.  %%

Modern asd and VSD tugs are far more maneuverable than 'conventional designs' which I suppose means that they have to have their own competitions lest they show up the older traditional  designs.  (One reason why I like the continental approach ZZ56 :-)) ).
Following that line I suppose you need a single shaft no Kort league, a harbour tug circa 1950 league, no bow thrusters league, etc. ;D
 
Now no rude replies please, I'm not trying to antagonize you competition purists. It just seems that unless you have loads of little classes you aren't playing fairly.

The carousel I'm building is a tractor and not an ASD BUT it does have a z-drive fitted. There's a big lump of rubber on the front though so it can push too although it wouldn't pass for a springer even on a dark night.  Can I use it in all the different competitions? Probably not. I'm not too bothered. Why, because to me it's just a bit of fun!

As for the judge  Poll, him I liked, and like all good gentlemen, I never kiss and tell! :-X

Paul

Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on May 31, 2010, 01:33:53 AM
I was looking at coverage of the Foss Cup and the only classes are size-related, yet it seemed to be a fair contest overall.  There was a towing/pushing course and a salvage course where conventional and omnidirectional tugs competed side by side. I saw more photos, from a different event I think, where one of the objectives was to pull a weighted barge off a grounding. 

Having different activities would make it fair for all tug types because each type has strengths AND weaknesses.
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on May 31, 2010, 10:32:26 AM
Couldn't agree more ZZ56. :-))
Size matters not the design. As you correctly point out every design has it's strengths (& weaknesses).
Unfortunately not everyone has such a liberal view.
I recall an open day at  Mobile Marine a while ago where I was chatting about different designs with the exhibitors.
I must have met the only "religious" type there because the gentleman launched into a discussion on how modern and traditional designs shouldn't be on the same pond.
I liked his tug, traditional build 1950's London harbor tug on top (can't remember what one though) but on asking about the twin screws, Kort propellers, steerable Kort nozzles and the Becker Rudder attachment the conversation on maneuverability dried up.
It didn't help when I foolishly said that it was the skipper that really mattered on the day not the running gear. (Oops!) :o
I'll never go to heaven!
Paul




Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: poll on June 01, 2010, 09:43:16 PM
Hi Hazmat,  Just to wet your appetite if you are building a carrousel tug, this is a freelance working model.

John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: Patrick Henry on June 02, 2010, 11:14:09 AM
Just a small point...what happens if you build an all singing, all dancing model of any tug and fit it with an electric motor...if the full size tug you have copied had a diesel engine, then shouldn't you have fitted a diesel engine as well?

Or you build a model of a steam tug and fit an electric motor instead of a steam plant? Surely you should have fitted a steam engine in order to be able to call it a scale model?

Rich
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: gingyer on June 02, 2010, 11:39:54 AM
reading this thread you can't help to see why model boating is the poor relation in modeling >>:-(

IF you are entering a scale competition then show them the actual drawings you made them from
and also any information with regard to it then they can see it was designed but not yet put into production.
and then the judges can mark accordingly
IF it was a sailing competition then again it is a prototype of an actual model the tug towing and it is highlighted and judged as such.
tugs are built at approximatley 1/32scale but they are vastly over powered so does that mean they should not sail or in my case my warships
go like stink well above scale speed or we have Norry up here with his "cut and shut" tugs does that mean he cannot enter any competitions as his tugs are too wee

common sense has been lost here but we should be encouraging models and how many tugs/warships do you see that are all the same type
on the pond then something differant turns up and everyone is looking and talking about it because it is differant

Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: The Antipodean on June 02, 2010, 01:59:32 PM
I guess I would be "one of those people" at any boat club as I build what I like and change what I feel needs to be changed.While I can understand the purists out there I also can appreciate the people who decide to personalise their craft. A set of standard specs like the ones they use for Springer competition would probably be the best idea from my point of view, for towing and sailing contests that is. If you are talking about scale models then there should be two categories, one for replicas of the prototype and one for where the person has built something using components of of one scale for that build.
I have a boat that started as one ship, I realised the scale was out so I found a photo of a smaller ship of the same type and made her into that one. This basically left me with a prototype and is a one of a kind model, but she is 1:16 all the way. Should that cause a penalty or should it be rewarded for creating something new?
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: knoby on June 02, 2010, 07:31:45 PM
I agree with Gingyer, common sense needs to be employed. 

With regard to tug towing, is it really necessary to judge the models for scale? & if so , its it right that the scale marks are added to the towing marks to give the overall score?
Equally, If someone builds a scale model of a tug, is it fair that it5 is placed in competition against a model built specifically for tug towing ? maybe the scale judging is the only way to get a balance between the 2 models.

However , if I enter a competition I have to abide by the rules & whilst they may not be perfect, I appreciate that the organisers are actually getting off their behinds & putting on an event for my enjoyment. whilst I don't think any models should be excluded form entering any competition, problems will always arise due to the vast differences in the types of models we build.

Cheers Glenn




Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: toesupwa on June 02, 2010, 10:36:01 PM

If he hadn't said otherwise, i'd have thought it was an exact model of a fullsize Crowley tug. 

When i designed the MHT, I used several (full size, existing) drawings of tug's to come up with my design. It may not be scale per se, but it's root's are certainly 'scale'..

With the addition of scale type looking deck equipment and a scale looking superstructure, even a Springer cam be made to look scale!... Yes, I've competed in the Foss Cup in Seattle, Wa with Scoot.. and that is certainly not scale!... but the competition rules are that the boat must be 'scale like'..

Even if there is not (yet) a full size version of the boat you intend to build Hazmat, go ahead and build it anyway... and enter it in a 'scale' competition for towing. You have enough information there to back up your claim for scale..
.. and sooner or later, you might find a 'real' boat has been built..  :}
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: poll on June 02, 2010, 11:15:57 PM
Hi folks to my knowledge the tug in a tug towing event as never been judged for scale, the tanker or dead ship that is towed on most occasions are not to scale with the tugs ( most tugs 1/32 scale ) The idea of the towing is to get the ship through the buoys without touching them & back to Port.
Has for scale steering a person can sail any type of boat at club level, Has for National level  MPBA Qualifier& finals  there is a navigation class where any person can sail in this class with any type of boat. ( sorry no IC ) and is marked on the navigation & not the scale of the boat.  Hope this puts some light on the subject.

John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on June 02, 2010, 11:47:27 PM
toesupwa.
Almost finished. Second water trials ( So wanted to write sea trials but the local duck pond didn't quite fit the word 'sea'  <:(  ) went well, couldn't capsize it :-)) but must find 'the leak'   :o .
Scale like? It has all the normal bits and pieces you would expect including the captains cat :}. Dunno how to carve a parrot   {:-{ .
Not been built yet in the world? Dunno, but IMC are building carousels and that design feature makes towing safer.
As for worrying about whether I can use it in some competition, I'm not losing sleep about that.
I build for fun  ok2 which is something a few scale purists have forgotten about.

Poll.
Yep, carousel. Mine does that too with me leaning back against the tow!  :-)) Fascinating isn't it. 360 degree tugging with no capsize. And all because I watched the IMC trails on utube and got hooked on the concept..


Paul

Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on June 02, 2010, 11:59:53 PM
Hazmat,

Out of curiosity, do you know how much bollard pull you get off the single Schottel drive?
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on June 03, 2010, 12:03:57 AM
Not yet, still trying to sink the beastie.
Will let you know if I can find my fishing scales..
Paul
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: tugs46 on June 03, 2010, 03:59:11 PM
Very interesting debate :-)) :-))

Poll (John)...love the pictures of your tug towing :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))


Mike
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: poll on June 03, 2010, 09:25:35 PM
Hi Mike,  Thanks,   had some good fun with this one.  The hull started at 7.5in beam with it been in the water it's grown up to 11.5in now, Lol

John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ministeve on June 03, 2010, 10:55:38 PM
hi all as some may know i do a little towing and to my knowledge no club worth there salt would ever turn competitors away cos the tug was not to scale we just don't have the luxury of too many modelers  :-))  also when judges do there stuff they don't look for exact scale towing you just could not achieve this at the size we are sailing. you just don't want to see the tug or ship bouncing around the lake at a total unreal manner.  the idea is to have fun and do something other than just sail around a pond

Steve
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: poll on June 04, 2010, 05:55:59 PM
Not yet, still trying to sink the beastie.
Will let you know if I can find my fishing scales..
Paul

                Hi Hazmat, Would there be any chance of seeing some photo's of your Carrousel.

John
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on June 05, 2010, 10:23:59 PM
Poll, Pics coming up, just got to finish glazing and the cat won't sit still long enough for the glue to set.
I should point out that compared to your builds it'll look like something the ships cat would have made!

zz56.
Fishing scales found, and now I've changed the props, with just the schottel running the scales register 4lbs. With the main drive running too, 11lbs.
BUT, it wasn't exactly a scientific test as I was on my own and the dog kept jumping in (much to the consternation of the Canada geese).

The dawg is part collie, part springer, and part fish! Trained to rescue boats (even them that don't need it.)

Paul


Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: ZZ56 on June 05, 2010, 10:57:54 PM
That's the 65mm 'large' Graupner drive, is it?  Four pounds is quite a bit.   8)
Title: Re: What makes a scale tug?
Post by: hazmat on June 06, 2010, 12:51:59 PM
Correct drive train, but changed the prop to brass and my brainy friend re-did the Kort nozzle in resin to fit.
That's the nice thing we found about graupner and marx drives.
You can do so much with them (provided you have a clever clogs as a friend that is ).O0
We've also had to beef up the azimuth servo {:-{.
Problem is now whether to 'cage' the prop to protect the plastic gear train.