Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam R&D: => Topic started by: Bunkerbarge on May 31, 2010, 04:25:13 pm

Title: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on May 31, 2010, 04:25:13 pm
This thread has been put into the R&D board as a guide for all modellers new to the delights of steam plant to help them with any challenges they may encounter along the way.  Beginners can feel free to ask any question, no matter how simple it may seem, and one of our esteemed experts will help out in any way they can.

I would also ask any experienced steam modellers to add any post in this thread that they feel may be of benefit to newcomers such as defenitions, explanations or even tutorials.  Please keep them at a level that can be understood by all and therefore will be of benefit and interest to everyone.

Let's not forget that there is no such thing as a daft question and encourage all to ask whatever may be on thier minds.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sheerline on May 31, 2010, 06:02:12 pm
Hi Bunkerbarge, I'm not involved with steam boats as such, don't own or run them (as yet) but recently I have had a little insight to the regulations regarding steamboat safety checks and boiler testing regs etc.
What are the regulations, if any, governing the use of flash steam plants, presumably they are not subject to the same rigorous test proceedure?
Many thanks.......Chris
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on May 31, 2010, 06:53:33 pm
Hi Sheerline,

Flash steam plants, if that is definitely what you are building, are not covered by current EU regs, or most model engineering clubs.

The reason is that usually they are made of one continuous length of thickwall small diameter (hence very high safety rating) tube with extremely small water content (so if it did do the unlikely and explode then it would not do any damage- steam expands at a ratio of 1600:1 so 1L of water would theoretically become 1600Lt of steam).

If however you have an accumulator or header that stores the steam or water then it becomes a shell boiler and has far more stored potential energy and this would need to be pressure tested to 1.5 x working pressure in the presence of a boiler inspector.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on May 31, 2010, 07:04:36 pm
I am not actually aware of any regulations that cover Flash steam plants because technically they are not an enclosed pressure vessel.  The "Blue Book" and the MPBA rules therefore do not apply and, as Greg has already said, neither do current EU regs.  The minute however you enclose a space and subject it to a pressure it becomes a pressure vessel and hence rules apply.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sheerline on May 31, 2010, 10:28:11 pm
Thanks for that chaps. No, I wasn't intending to build one....( %) yet) but I met a fellow the other day who has done so many times. He uses uniflo engines for hi speed runs and it fired my imagination a tad.
Two of the main problems for me though A: time and B: noise ....but the whole scenario of pumping water and turning it into a red hot gas to be instantly used up has a kind of poetic engineering beauty about it. Anyway, for now the world is a safer place as I'm bogged down with work.
My main question was the regs and you have answered it kind sirs.
Regards...........chris
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on May 31, 2010, 10:46:16 pm
Uniflow engines are by their nature very noisy and you can buy pre-built engines and kits Sheerline... :-))

Uniflow engines are noisy because they have limited cutoff and use a quick steam exit from the cylinders making for fast and furious running.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sheerline on May 31, 2010, 11:57:29 pm

(http://s3.postimage.org/5SpS0.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq5SpS0)

(http://s2.postimage.org/rUQCr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsrUQCr)


Don't tempt me Greg!! I have enough trouble trying to pursue all the current projects on my 'want to do' list as it is.
I get easily distracted and go off on tangents. Whilst raking through some stock materials in my junk box one day, I found some spare brass and ally etc and decided i could build a V twin I had had in mind for some time. I started doodling and mulling it over and so one weekend i grew this 'contraption' from my scrapbox. Once the lathe was going I couldn't stop, even though I had work to do but it was worth it.
12mm bore,20mm stroke, 60deg double acting oscillator with 4mm stainless shaft running in ballraces.Chassis is made from Duralumin. I disposed of the usual cylinder tensioning springs and made brass cups containing silicone 'O' rings so I could pre-tension the cylinders to the ported backplates for max seal/min friction (you can fine tune it when underload). Backplates are stood off the chassis to mininise heat loss. Pistons are grooved and use silicone'O' ring seals. At 25 psi offload it is scary fast but underload it is virtually unstoppable, masses of torque. I did compile figures for it when I tested it but they have vanished and i can't remember now how many watts of power it produced.  I loaded it with a small generator and got 9.6 volts at something like 1/2Am (4.5W approx).
 One day i will find something to put it in as it will turn a good size prop. I ran it for a couple of days just to see if it would wear out, once the pistons had bedded in I whipped them out and replaced the 'O' rings and it runs like a real sweetie. It will creep round at an agonisingly slow pace and despite the 60deg angle it is very regular with only the tiniest perceptible hesitation at one spot but that is probably my fault with drilling the porting.
Anyway, that is the sum of my '' build it for fun' diversion for the last couple of years... looking at what you have been up to lately just puts my efforts to shame I'm afraid but at least it worked.
 Ah well, back to work!
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 01, 2010, 10:49:07 am
You've opened the padded room BB, Flash Steam, TRUE Sooperheating.   {-)


   Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 01, 2010, 05:13:47 pm
It didn't take long for a Beginners Guide to become yet another place to advertise our talents did it?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sheerline on June 01, 2010, 06:05:56 pm
Sorry BB, wasn't my intention and I didn't set out to hi-jack your thead. The bit I posted was however informative with some specs on the engine and may inspire some raw beginners by showing what can be done with a box of scrap rather than an expensive set of castings and an envelope of engineering drawings. 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 03, 2010, 07:48:37 am
I have a question for our experts. Gas nozzle sizing....

Larger more heat ? I'm sure it's not as easy as that..... What defines the correct size for a given power plant ?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: kiwimodeller on June 03, 2010, 11:01:17 am
Certainly dont profess to be any sort of expert but we can all play around and note down the results. I quickly established when trying to get more steam out of a boiler that could not keep up with the engine's demands that a bigger gas jet size does not mean more heat unless you can get more air in too. Even that does not make much difference unless you can balance the proportions of primary and secondary air. Get those right and the amount of steam does not increase much unless you can increase the size of the burner and the surface area of the flue and cross tubes to transfer that heat in to the water. I guess what I am saying is that there are several factors to the package. The modern ceramic burners are neater, tidier, quieter and more reliable but I can still get more heat out of the old Primus - Sievert "Roarer" type burner as used on plumbers torches. Old timer once told me that the best set up is the one that has the hottest temperature at the flue entrance and the coldest temperature at the top of the funnel as then all the heat is going in to the water. I must get a thermometer to test with. I guess this is why manufacturers have to build in an R & D cost - me, I just drill holes and see what happens. Have fun experimenting, you will try 100 different things to find 99 that dont work but the other 1 is worth knowing! Cheers, Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 03, 2010, 12:48:26 pm
Thanks for that Kiwi...  :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 03, 2010, 01:48:42 pm
Another angle that seems to get forgotten here is that playing around with the burner configuration invalidates any "steaming" certification that may be in place on the boiler, as opposed to hydrostatic pressure tests. 

Such steaming tests as required by the "Blue Book" require you to demonstrate that the safety valve will not allow the pressure in the boiler to rise by more than 10% of the working pressure with the burner on full.  The certificate issued for this is only valid as long as you do not make any alterations to the burner, the reasoning being well demonstrated to me only recently.  I was testing a boiler with the safety valve fully open and venting however the pressure was continuing to rise to well over 10%.  We changed the jet for a smaller one and repeated the test and the safety valve was then able to cope with the heat input however if the owner was to replace the original jet then the boiler would be in an unsafe condition.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 03, 2010, 02:44:06 pm
But doesn't that suggest that the safety valve was inadequate for the boiler heating requirements BB? Yes I know you went the other way and reduced the burner jet size, but would not increasing the safety valve outlet diameter have achieved the same effect??

  Regards  Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 03, 2010, 08:36:45 pm
But doesn't that suggest that the safety valve was inadequate for the boiler heating requirements BB? Yes I know you went the other way and reduced the burner jet size, but would not increasing the safety valve outlet diameter have achieved the same effect??

  Regards  Ian

Of course, but I was only making the point that you cannot play around with the burner configuration, or the safety valve, once it has been certified.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 04, 2010, 12:37:26 am
Discussion of a moot subject amongst Gentlemen is always a win win situation for all.... :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 04, 2010, 11:17:13 am
The main problem that has to be overcome is the one of "Mindset" As we often see(?) in audio reproduction, as far as the younger generation is concerned LOUD IS GOOD.

  Ian (Kiwimodller) highlighted a misnomer in that applying a higher heat source would substitute for a lack of steam volume production in a specific boiler. Heating area was the answer, not heat intensity, having said that, steam overproduction is just as big a vice. Why have a boiler producing vast volumes of steam to power an oscillator when most is escaping via the safety valve.

 Many years ago, pre-motorways, I fitted an 18T engine sprocket to a motorbike that nomally had a 21T as standard everyday use. This was because I was going "Down the A1" on a long (For me) trip. Top gear on the long straight roads was great, no stress on the engine, BUT in towns, what a b***h, I was counting all four strokes of the engine in first gear and having to slip the clutch to keep moving.

 How many try to employ the same parameters to toy engines?? The two "reference" books that should be in every steam addicts library are K.N.Harris's Model Stationary and Marine Steam Engines and Model Boilers and Boilermaking (Oh H**l is he wittering about those AGAIN). To find the answer, one needs to understand the problem and by looking at and applying first principles which the forementioned volumes explain fully, it becomes obvious that for a given engine size and steam requirement a suitable boiler type and size can be deduced. "But I'm not very good at Maffs"   OK, DON'T meddle, if you can't work it out, leave the construction and experimentation to someone who can or play in isolation far from any you might injure if you've got it wrong. Seen so many Gung Ho threads on "Other" sites where a caveat emptor attitude is taken re safety or common sense[/b for that matter exists.

 The only difference in the books mentioned is that the safety valve requirements to comply with the Blue Book would have to be changed as more recent thinking on steam escape hole sizes has been further investigated in recent years (well forty at least). I'm not trying to put the beginners off, but there are well founded reasons for not putting a Vee8 in a Mini, and the basic steam principles still apply from their original conception, thanks Messers Boyle, Stevenson, Rev. Stirling et al.

  Regards  Ian

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 04, 2010, 12:33:08 pm
Since this is supposed to be a Beginners' Guide, may I ask where one could find an absolute beginners' explanation of the principles of steam engines?  A friend in America, a long term modelmaker in plastics and resins has decided to go all "model engineer" on us due to a late life allergy to the forementioned.  He LOVES British traction engines, but just wants to be talked/shown through steam practice from A-Z.  He's a VERY intelligent, urbane chap and will be most appreciative if anyone could point him in the right direction.
He already has LBSC's Shop, Shed and Road, but wants something a little more universal as explanatory notes.
He has a nice Sherline lathe and Mill with all the goodies, too.  B*****d!! :P

Many thanks in anticipation.
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 04, 2010, 02:21:53 pm
Both of these books have been long out of print however they can both be obtained as .pdf copies from here:

http://www.fastonline.org/CD3WD_40/JF/424/19-423.pdf

and here:

http://www.fastonline.org/CD3WD_40/JF/424/19-422.pdf

Circlip will be asking questions later! ;)
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 04, 2010, 02:25:47 pm
.....and they are also both available from here:

http://www.teepublishing.co.uk/search.php
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: barryfoote on June 04, 2010, 03:05:16 pm
I am sorry to sound a grump, but as a beginners guide, so far this thread is a complete waste of time. I have had a read through it and found nothing for the beginner!!! I am more confused than ever now...... {:-{ {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: KenP on June 04, 2010, 04:15:40 pm
I agree with Footski, canwe get bsck to thr beginners bit.

What bits do you need to power a ship?

How do you decide which boiler to use?

How do you decide which engine to use?

How do you keep the boiler toped up with water?

How do you start the bloody thing?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 04, 2010, 04:28:57 pm
Ken,

Bunkerbarge covered most of your points in his recent series in Model Boats magazine last year. If you don't take the magazine then back copies are available.

I think there is another pertinent point to be made here and that is that there may be two types of beginner, the person who wants to build his own plant (as per Vintagent's post above) and the person who wants advice on how to choose, fit and operate commercially obtained equipment. It is the latter that Bunkerbarge's articles were really intended for and theye were very well set out and easy to understand. Definitely worth getting hold of as they are up to date too. The first article and one or two of the others are free to view on the Model Boats website: http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4447

Colin
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 04, 2010, 04:41:18 pm
Not only Colins addition, but the two References I gave, that Bunkerbarge has given free download copies and saved "Beginners" about thirty quid as already quoted contain the basics. ???????   :embarrassed:  How big does the spoon need to be?


  Oh yes, and I hope if Ripslider is reading this, he lets me have my copies back :-))

   Regards  Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: barryfoote on June 04, 2010, 04:54:57 pm
Ken,

Bunkerbarge covered most of your points in his recent series in Model Boats magazine last year. If you don't take the magazine then back copies are available.

I think there is another pertinent point to be made here and that is that there may be two types of beginner, the person who wants to build his own plant (as per Vintagent's post above) and the person who wants advice on how to choose, fit and operate commercially obtained equipment. It is the latter that Bunkerbarge's articles were really intended for and theye were very well set out and easy to understand. Definitely worth getting hold of as they are up to date too. The first article and one or two of the others are free to view on the Model Boats website: http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4447

Colin

Colin,

I appreciate what you say, but this is not "Model Boats" magazine. It is a model boat forum. If a thread is titled "A beginners guide to steam", then surely that is what it should be. I am not blaming Bunkerbarge for this, but the thread seems to have been hijacked to a point where it has no meaning. As for your "advertising post", sorry my friend but I don't think it has any place in this thread either..
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 04, 2010, 05:16:46 pm
KenP, that's what my chum would like to know as well, if anyone can do that for him.  He is in no better position than me to buy expensive readymades, but a basic talk through of steam principles would help anyone really.
I can make an engine, but know nothing about boilers really (OK, principles, maybe)
I certainly know nothing about gas installations. 
I'd be happy if a spirit burner tucked underneath did the works on a pot-boiler+ (water tubes hanging below, kinda thing).
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 04, 2010, 06:00:36 pm
Footski,

Sorry but I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here. I was not plugging Model Boats as such but simply pointing out that much of the information asked for is already in the public domain and quite a bit of it is free to read. The articles that Bunkerbarge wrote do cover exactly the same points that some people are querying here and are very informative and accessible. I suppose he could have posted the material on here instead but it took a great deal of time and effort to put together and publishing it in the magazine means that it will be seen by maybe five times as many modellers than if it were to be solely confined to Mayhem and his main objective was to promote the use of steam to as many people as possible.

However I do accept that different people have different ideas on what a Forum is for. If I am starting an interest in an entirely new subject then my practice is to read up on the basics first so that when I do need help in understanding some of the detail I can post my queries in a specific and reasonably informed way which will hopefully not impose too much on the time of the knowledgeable people who are prepared to help me.  If they are prepared to give their time for free then the least I can do is to put in a bit of preliminary effort myself.

Bunkerbarge has suggested a couple of books himself for people to look at but understandably has not wished to plug his own published material. I thought it only right that attention should be drawn to that.

Colin
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 04, 2010, 07:00:08 pm
Ok, to give easy answers to Ken.

  1. Engine, boiler and propellor.

  2. Depends on size of engine.

  3. Depends on size of Boat and depth of pocket.

  4. With water.

  5. A match or cigarette lighter.

  Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 04, 2010, 07:15:15 pm
Whoa, 'ang about chaps!! I seem to remember being the one trying to get this thread back to a beginners thread in the first place and now I'm being accused of taking it off at a tangent!

I wouldn't mind but I only started it because a member asked me to :o
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: barryfoote on June 04, 2010, 07:35:17 pm
I give up. Sorry Bunkerbarge. it was a good idea, but..............

Not your fault at all..
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 04, 2010, 07:52:18 pm
It's still a good idea but maybe needs some parameters attached. "Tell me everything about steam in model boats" is a bit ambitious but dealing with queries from people who are taking their first practical steps into putting together an installation is possibly more appropriate.

Even 'simple' steam in model boats is quite a complex subject. I would certainly class myself as a beginner and I found Bunkerbarge's articles to be pitched at exactly the right level for somebody thinking about having a go at it. But his initial series or articles filled 12 pages in the magazine and he needed to add a postscript by popular demand to cover various outstanding odds and ends. Realistically I can't see the subject being covered in much less space so why would anyone want to repeat the exercise on here when the job has already been done?

Bunkerbarge's articles certainly gave me an excellent insight into just what is involved in setting up a successful steam installation using mainly commercial components which is the easiest way into the subject and my personal conclusion was that, while I find steam fascinating, I simply lack the degree of commitment needed to get involved in it myself. Others will take a different view but the value of the articles is that they show you just what is entailed so that you can make an informed decision for yourself.

Colin
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 04, 2010, 08:13:02 pm
Ok, If it's alright with everyone I would like to volunteer to add regular posts to this thread on an AtoZ of steam, it will be simple and conscise- if people are wondering about a certain point they can PM me or if it is in everyones interest to know the answer ask on the thread here.

I will start with the general principles of boiling water...(that's not a pun)

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 04, 2010, 09:06:21 pm
Many thanks for the initiative Greg, I'm sure such posts will lead to interesting questions and follow up.

I do think it might be of value to say one or two things about the whole subject of steam in model boats.  The first is that there is no magic answer, nor is there any holy grail that can be given to anyone to answer such sweeping questions as has been suggested.  There has to be a degree of 'finding out for yourselves' and whilst there are a number of us willing and able to help the cause being met with a "Tell me all about it" type of approach leaves us floundering because we don't know where to start.  It is going to be far easier to deal with a specific question and then let that lead to further discussion and questions rather than try to spoon feed what we think may be required.

As Colin has indicated I have written a series of articles that were published in Model Boat magazine and some of them remain available on thier web site for every one to read.  These were aimed at newcomers trying to get into steam in model boats but being unsure as to the basics perhaps didn't know where to start.  So perhaps reading them might be a good place to start.  I'm also getting a sense of available plant being too expensive so we need to make sure that every one is aware there are only really two basic paths into the steam world.  You either make things yourself, in which case you need expertise and machinery to be able to do so or you need enough money to be able to buy manufactured plant.  There is no point in complaining that you can't afford to buy manufactured gear, it's expensive and we can't change that.

I hope that we can use this thread to give some advice and guidance to beginners, as I said in the first post, and help them to select the type of plant they want to use as well as support some of those decisions with a bit of background to some of the questions that may arise but I don't think it will become a "Steam For Dummies" presentation.  As Colin suggested, steam requires a much higher degree of dedication than you need for electric propulsion so there is never going to be a quick and easy fix into the subject.

Over to Greg and his boiling water :D
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 04, 2010, 09:13:03 pm
Ok guys and gals here we go; %)

Water is a liquid that starts to freeze from 4deg and below and boils at 100deg in perfect state, and from 98.5 to 101deg with certain minerals and characteristic chemicals added.

It is a fantastic conductor of heat and heats quickly given the right conditions-large surface area to water volume  being the best conditions, for example;

Those that have old kettles that go on the gas hob and replaced them with an electric kettle with a large element have the same surface area and heat input should boil water at the same speed despite the heat sources being completely different.

HOWEVER, I wrote should because as water heats, especially if it heats rapidly it begins to circulate, a rolling boil being the best example of this- if the water is heated from the bottom then the ‘cold’ water will fall at the furthest point from the heat source- in a kettle this would be on the outside of the kettle- and the hot water will rise rapidly up from the heat source.

Thus our example of the two supposedly identical kettles that should boil water at the same rate is slightly flawed;

If the kettle with the element has a coiled element in the centre of the kettle at a point raised above the bottom of the base of the kettle then it will circulate the water quicker- for various reasons that most are too complicated to include at the very beginning of the thread!

One way to ‘force’ circulation is to manipulate the shape of the boiling area- for example a vertical cylinder heated from the outside at it’s base will have conflicting circulation currents- however link the cylinder to another vertical cylinder  at it’s base and at the top, still just heating the original will allow all the hot water to rise in the heated tube and the cooler eater to circulate back down the other to re-enter the heat exchanger at the base- a process known as ‘natural convection’ in boiler design.

However, this simple situation can be further improved by manipulating the boiler shape and increasing the surface area-

If cone shaped cylinders are used- the base of the heated cylinder being thinner at the top, and the base of the circulating tube thinner at the bottom then these will act as venturi tubes (the process of increasing velocity of a gas or liquid by narrowing it’s path and suddenly expanding it again) speeding up circulation,

To speed up circulation even more surface area can be increased.

The reason we do all this is that steam is not just a thin vapour that rises from water when heated, but is formed as tiny bubbles in the water at the heat source that stick to the surfaces of the boiler- the champagne glass principle- by forcing circulation as much as possible these bubbles cannot adhere to the sides (acting as insulation and wasting heat)- just like shaking your champagne glass has the same effect.

Just as important as making sure the heat is used in as efficient a manner as possible by giving it as much water to heat in a given period of time as possible is keeping the heat that has been put into the boiler in the boiler, or In other words INSULATION.

I think we all know how important insulation is in our houses that try to keep in 18-21deg- increase that temperature by 5 or 6 times and the job is far harder.

PUT AS MUCH INSULATION AROUND YOUR BOILER AND ENGINE CYLINDERS AND ESPECIALLY PIPEWORK AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!

The main variables for boiling water are thus;

- Heat input
- Water circulating properties
- Shape of boiling area
&
- Insulation levels

I hope this has been patronising to the regular 'steam' posters on here- if so it means it's as simple as I meant it to be.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 04, 2010, 10:48:21 pm
If Greg doesn't mind me adding to his explanation I think it is useful here to also discus the differences between heat and temperature.  Heat is basically a measurement of internal energy which everything has.  Some things have a high energy and some a lower energy.  This heat energy is capable of transferring from one object to another by any one of the three transfer paths, namely conduction, convection and radiation. 

A consequence of heat is temperature but not necessarliy such that the higher the energy the higher the temperature.  For instance if you add heat to water from a burner the temperature in the water rises as it's internal energy rises.  When it reaches the boiling point though the heat energy is then used to change the state of the water to steam and so even though you may be still putting more heat into the water it's temperature will not rise.  This heat is known as latent heat and any given substance has a specific latent heat, which is the amount of heat required to change the state of a specific quantity of the substance.  If the substance remains open to the atmosphere continuing to add heat will not raise the temperature but will only continue to change the state of more of the water, as in a normal kettle and explains why the temperature of a kettle does not rise above 100 degrees C, depending on atmospheric pressure.

If you then contain the escaping steam it generates a pressure on it's container as more water is changed to steam until it reaches it's vapour pressure at which point the system is said to be in equilibrium.  Adding more heat then does two things, it increases the temperature of the steam and it increases the pressure, which remain related.  This is why for those of you with Cheddar Electronic Gas Control systems the probe in the boiler actually measures temperature and not pressure.

So that's the basics of what is going on in the boiler and again thanks to Greg for getting the ball rolling.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on June 04, 2010, 11:18:48 pm

HELP.  >>:-(  >:-o
Guys remember the KISS principle  :-))
Keep It Simple Stupid  :-))
Yes a lot of us do need big spoons the bigger the better. O0
Reading this thread, If it sounds too complicated and difficult why would I want to start in steam, know nothing about it and at this rate will never do so.  <:(  <:(
As for references to "Model Bots magazine articles" and public domain >:-o  {:-{  :((  that all depends on how you search and your current knowledge, no knowledge so what do you look for and where hence the questions for help. <:(
We are not all on the same level  %)  let alone sometimes not even the same wavelength  %% and we all don't have the same deep pockets. <*<  >>:-(
Now  I stand guilty of having completely got of the thread.  :embarrassed:  <:(
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Colin Bishop on June 04, 2010, 11:34:48 pm
Well, as far as Model Boats Magzaine is concerned it doesn't get much easier that this:

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4447

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4853

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4853

The other articles are available if you have a subscription or are willing to purchase them. The publishers are in business to sell magazines rather than give out free advice I'm afraid.

If you want to understand the subject then, as I have previously said, you need to put a bit of effort in yourself. It's not rocket science!

Colin
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 05, 2010, 10:26:10 am
If I may sing a chorus for those of us who want it simple...get on Pete Atkins' website and listen to the Locomotive song from Beware of the Beautiful Stranger. No more concise explanation is there for how a steam loco works! (The other songs are magnificent too!)

Also, don't forget, people like Raartygunner, that you could put a Mamod or SEL or Willesco "toy" steam plant in a boat and have almost as much fun because when it's out on the water chuffing away, nobody can see all the magnificence of the model engineering OR the lack of it. It's just a steam boat at a distance.  So some of the need for Cheddar, Monahan, etc. plant could be seen as a bit of one-upmanship.  Fair enough. Some are impressed by that.  Some, like me are as unmoved by that as by TV advertising.
Of course some people have no space, equipment, skill, etc. and can afford the above so have to have it if they must have steam. Equally fair enough.
All I'm saying is a glorified pot-boiler, a spirit burner and an oscillating plant will still give you hours of pleasure on rudder only.  But do test it first to time the length of run.  You don't want all the solder running out of the joints on your Mamod!

Fun IS available with a little imagination without breaking the bank.
Of course these little units can be made without the facilities of an engineering shop, too.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 05, 2010, 10:36:25 am
Quote
Well, as far as Model Boats Magzaine is concerned it doesn't get much easier that this:

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4447

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4853

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=4853

  But what does this mean Colin, how does it help???????????  %) Do I have to do something??

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 05, 2010, 10:40:32 am
Having said all that above, I have just looked at the Maccsteam site and am frankly amazed at how remarkably inexpensive are his products.  I couldn't begin to produce those components at those prices.  I could make them all on my wee lathe, but I would have to ask myself it it was worth the trouble. A beautiful valve assembly with handwheel for £15???  Amazing.
I add that I have no connection with this company other than a bystander led to his website by another thread on this forum.

If I could justify spending there I wouldn't hesitate!

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 05, 2010, 11:38:33 am
I know that I'm not exactly the most popular bloke amongst all you steam buffs (probably my own fault for being a twonk in the first place), but could I throw a couple questions your way?.........

Did any of you go the Shepton Mallet gig in April? Just outside of the hall where ACTion, MMB and several other traders were doing their thing, was a chap with three of four models (VERY nice models), each fitted with their own steamplants. I was having a long chat with the man who built/owned them, and he was telling me about this wee electronic gizmo he'd installed in each model, only I didn't get to learn what those gizmos were because some other chap came along and we all got sidetracked. All I know is that they (gizmos) were some sort of safety device - something to do with preventing the engine from exploding. The only other thing I learnt is that each one cost the man something like £150.00 each. I was shocked by that because, when he popped the lid, I peered inside and saw just one 8-pin chip, a small on-board trimpot and a couple other discrete components. All pretty much bog-standard components, and no way was there anything to the value of THAT much. I'd guestimate that one could build the same and still see change from a twenty.
From this, albeit scratchy discription, would you steam boys happen to know what that gizmo might be?
Would you be perhaps interested in paying far less for a homemade one?

(Total apologies for taking your thread slightly off course).
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 05, 2010, 12:16:11 pm
My guess PMK would be some form of gas contriol device.  The problem with a basic unit which pumps gas into the burner is that when you don't use the engine the pressure rises until the safety lifts, then you are simply wasting energy.  If you can turn the burner down to control the flame and prevent the safety from lifting then that is a huge advantage.  Mechanical ways of doing this are the attenuator valve, which uses a diaphragm pushed by the boiler steam pressure against a spring, to control the gas flow, or electronically like the old Cheddar Electronic Gas Valve, which is now produced by Stuart.  This uses a temperature sensor on the boiler to switch the burner from a ful flame setting to a pilot flame setting, thereby regulating the boiler presure.

I think I know the chap you are talking about and, if it's him, he makes absolutely everything from scratch.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 05, 2010, 12:25:44 pm
Well from what I can see above we have the opinion that anyone who has anything more complex than a Mamod is showing off and any teachings have to be in words of one syllable preferably not involving anything more technical than junior school physics and I suspect there are some who would struggle with that.  I accept that Macsteam products are beautiful and very reasonably priced however once you have looked at fitting out the boiler and added all the other bits you need you will still be a bit surprised at the total cost.

Bottom line I'm very dissapointed but there is obviously no demand for such a thread as this and maybe I will just have to accept that steam in model boats will be a victim of our society and die out with this generation.  I'm certainly not going to waste any more time on this thread.

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 05, 2010, 01:05:38 pm
"I'm certainly not going to waste any more time on this thread."

Don't give up. Some of us do read/do appreciate these things, you know.

I think you could be right about that gizmo, because, now that you mention it, I do recall a length of wire protruding from the box, terminated with a sensor on the end (presumably the temperature sensor you talk of). If this isn't too cheesy a question, what sort of temperatures do those boilers reach? In your opinion, does £150 sound like a lot to you?...or did I mishear the man? I would imaging that £150 is perhaps a small price to pay (especially in view of what those engines are worth) and at least safe in the knowledge that you're protected from any explosions or such, but would you agree that the same thing could be made a heck of a lot cheaper?
By the by, I'm not trying to cheapen things, and certainly not trying to muscle-in on anyone's profit, but I still think that you steam boys are perhaps getting a tad ripped-off?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 05, 2010, 01:12:01 pm
Nil Illigitum BB
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: The Antipodean on June 05, 2010, 01:31:16 pm
I have found this thread not only informative but entertaining as well.
As a not even an absolute beginner in steam I am curious to know more as I would love to build a steam tug at some point in the future as my situation has changed for the better and steam now looks as though it once again could be a prospect.
Bunkerbarge, you do wonderful explanations, I would think that if a person did not understand them they should maybe ask for clarification of the part they don't understand instead of saying the whole thing is useless.
From what I have seen in the steam forum, the people who have steam are always looking at encouraging more members to join them on the humid side of boating and I would guess they would actually be amazed that they had turned people away.
I would say it comes down to how much a person is willing to do to learn about a subject they say they are interested in, some want spoonfeeding and some are more than willing to do the research themselves.
Basically, if someone asks a question and it is answered, if someone else doesn't get it they should ask for a little more explanation and as long as the person who asked the initial question is satisfied with the answer then there is no problem at all.

Longwinded I know but my opinion on a good thread.

Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 05, 2010, 03:08:58 pm
"I'm certainly not going to waste any more time on this thread."

Don't give up. Some of us do read/do appreciate these things, you know.

I think you could be right about that gizmo, because, now that you mention it, I do recall a length of wire protruding from the box, terminated with a sensor on the end (presumably the temperature sensor you talk of). If this isn't too cheesy a question, what sort of temperatures do those boilers reach? In your opinion, does £150 sound like a lot to you?...or did I mishear the man? I would imaging that £150 is perhaps a small price to pay (especially in view of what those engines are worth) and at least safe in the knowledge that you're protected from any explosions or such, but would you agree that the same thing could be made a heck of a lot cheaper?
By the by, I'm not trying to cheapen things, and certainly not trying to muscle-in on anyone's profit, but I still think that you steam boys are perhaps getting a tad ripped-off?

Thanks for the support PMK, I can assure you it is very much appreciated.

This device does sound like an Electronic Gas Controller in which case you are up against the unit from Stuart Turner.  This includes the change over valve itself as well as the sensor and a gas pipe to connect the tank to the valve.  These are currently in the region of 140.00 UKP so you would have to do better than that to be competetive.  One possibility may be to sell just the electronics package and leave it with modellers to sort out thier own valve but I suspect most will want the valve including as well.  The way it works is that the valve changes over from full flame to pilot via an operating arm, which is moved by a micro-servo.  The servo gets it's signal from the control box, which in turn is activated by the temperature probe on the boiler.  The 'pot' you saw would be the pressure (technically temperature) set point so the unit is really only measuring the difference between the set point and the sensor input.  As you say it is pretty basic but very effective.

As for temperature if we take 100 psi, which is above what most model boilers should be working at, Cheddars are around 45 psi and Hemmens are about 80 psi, then the corresponding saturated temperature is 332 deg f or 167 deg C.  Test pressures are initially 2 x working pressure and subsequently 1.5 x working pressure so you could be looking at 187 deg C so I'd be looking for a sensor that can withstand 200 deg C.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 05, 2010, 03:22:38 pm
I have found this thread not only informative but entertaining as well.
As a not even an absolute beginner in steam I am curious to know more as I would love to build a steam tug at some point in the future as my situation has changed for the better and steam now looks as though it once again could be a prospect.
Bunkerbarge, you do wonderful explanations, I would think that if a person did not understand them they should maybe ask for clarification of the part they don't understand instead of saying the whole thing is useless.
From what I have seen in the steam forum, the people who have steam are always looking at encouraging more members to join them on the humid side of boating and I would guess they would actually be amazed that they had turned people away.
I would say it comes down to how much a person is willing to do to learn about a subject they say they are interested in, some want spoonfeeding and some are more than willing to do the research themselves.
Basically, if someone asks a question and it is answered, if someone else doesn't get it they should ask for a little more explanation and as long as the person who asked the initial question is satisfied with the answer then there is no problem at all.

Longwinded I know but my opinion on a good thread.

Ian

Many thanks Ian and again, very much appreciated.  You see it pretty much as I do and whereas I'm more than happy to give as much of my time as necessary I get a bit negative when I see complaints about the cost of steam plant and complaints about the fact that we are not teaching members at the right level.  I have put huge amounts of time and efforts over the last few years to try to get more modellers into steam and was very pleased to see our first Steam Convention at the Kirklees Model Boat club recently but people have to take steps themselves and show a degree of initiative as well.  It is not my responsibility to teach someone something, it is thier responsibility to learn and, as you say if they don't understand then ask the right questions. 

At the end of the day I went out and bought the books and read them and I expect a degree of the same from anyone who wishes to become more involved in steam.  If your attitude is that anyone with anything more complex than a Mamod or a Wilesco is showing off then please go and buy a Mamod or Wilesco and be happy with it.  There is a member on here who has an old launch with a plant that has been out of production for a long time however he did some research and found some information on it and I was able to complete a steam test for him and get him on the water.  I was more than happy to help him but the initiative and effort came from him in the first place.  Coincidentally as well his plant was of the Mamod/Wilesco type but he didn't see me as showing off with a Cheddar plant, he was just happy that I'd certificated his plant for him.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 05, 2010, 04:50:42 pm
I have run a Wilesco D48 for a number of years in a Mabel style hull, and have had many hours of enjoyment from it. The main problem I find with it is the original boiler, to solve this I have been experimenting with different boiler designs. For the absolute beginner I think the Midwest engines/boilers are a good place to start. There have been many designs published over the years for simple steam engines and boilers here are a few that I had posted on the RC Groups Steam section;
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1226384

Building Simple Model Steam Engines
Books 1 & 2
by Tubal Cain

Making Simple Model Steam Engines
Model Marine Steam
by Stan Bray

Another Article/book to add,
Safety of Copper Boilers by Kozo Hiraoka this nine page article was first in Live Steam & O.R. (Vol. 40 No. 6 Nov-Dec 2006) and is included in Building the New Shay.

Introducing Model Marine Steam
By John Cundell and Jim King.

Model Making 1919 Edition
By Raymond Francis Yates
Also
Boys' Book of Model Boats
By Raymond Francis Yates
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29064...-h/29064-h.htm

I have been building model steam engines and boilers off and on since 1967, but still find the articles for beginners enjoyable and quite often informative.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 05, 2010, 05:04:36 pm
I said there would always be an element of the showing off about it. I did not aim the comment at you BB or anyone else.  I DID say "fair enough" if you read it, but my main point was that about forums becoming oracles which books once were.  And so people not in the know might expect to find it all on line.
By scoffing at them and telling them to read books they'll claim they have no time to source and also insulting their intelligence by saying they haven't even o level physics, you WILL put them off.
Now I don't actually spend time worrying about that, but a lot of more committed members of the "movement", steam or otherwise do and so anything likely to drive the raw beginner away is to be discouraged.  Your general attitude is one. " Read me or I'm off", type of thing for example.

My comments about the simpler plants available or makeable with limited equipment were all part of an encouragement into steam, but at a more affordable level than shelling out hundreds on proprietary gas powered, reversing blah, blah installed according to one missive in a model boat magazine.

I have a lot of books and delight in reading them and have designed a vee twin without help.  I shall also use an old design for a spirit fired boiler to use on my local waters.  It will be as the Mamod or Willesco or SEL, because they are what I know and what need no accreditation from a distant boat club.  The basic designs came from an old friend who did his seven years with the Southern Railway and as a steam enginerr had no peers.  he was a major member of the Gauge One Model Railway Society and designed and ran many a fine model, coal and spirit, gas not being around as such at that time.
Of course, I would be as fascinated as the next man to see any of these shiny bought -in palnts at work, just not prepared to pay the prices (except for Maccsteam as I have already indicated)  When I bought the castings for my Stuart Triple a good few years ago, they cost me 64 guineas delivered to my bedsit.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: knoby on June 05, 2010, 05:08:41 pm
Hi all, I have dabbled with steam over the years but by no means am I an expert or anywhere near that level. I thank BB for starting this thread & have found it informative so far. I have no engineering facilities & limited engineering skills, so have to rely on ready made parts which I use or modify as required.  I personally learnt what i know from other people, reading up on the subject & trial & error.

Usual beginners questions seem to be i have this hull what steam plant will work in it? or I have this engine what boiler do I need? Whilst they are valid questions, unless someone has experience of that exact installation, there isn't really any definitive answers. i cant think of a single instance where a modeller has installed a steam plant & not continued to modify or change things to overcome problems or improve the performance. Steam really isn't a 'plug & play ' type of propulsion & if thats not your type of thing, then maybe its not for you.

Please don't think I'm trying to put people off trying it, for a first steam model it may be best to copy an existing boat & plant installation, which should eliminate many of the problems. personally my enjoyment of steam  comes from learning to understand my steam plant & work it more efficiently.

Perhaps some of the steam modellers could post details of their models, types of plant installed & a brief description of why they chose that particular route to give an idea of the thinking behind it.

As for it being expensive, well yes a steam engine is always going to cost more than a 540 motor, simply because of the design & engineering that goes in to it, but do you get value for money? thats the real question. Having been reading nicks thread on the development of the new v twin I think you get a masterful piece of equipment at a very reasonable price.

I hope Bunkerbarge  keeps this thread up, its really good to encourage more steam models, the help & advice is second to none on this forum * I thank all who have helped me over the last few years.

cheers Glenn.

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 05, 2010, 10:35:28 pm
Right,

As promised, even if people do find it hard to pick out the points they need from a thread, I’m going to forge ahead with simple steam postings.

After explaining the principles of boiling water and getting the most from it I think an explanation of different boiler types and their relative advantages and disadvantages-

Following on from explaining that heating surfaces and boiler shapes are the most effective means of controlling the boiling water.

I will explain using examples both full size and model- the principles are EXACTLY the same.

First-

Pot boilers

These are simply a kettle with no lid and have a steam take off, usually permanent (no isolation valve) and run at very low pressures.

Usually they are fired by spirit, or in mo re recent years fuel tablets. They are lots of fun, very simple, very safe, pretty much impossible to get wrong and are as reliable as any highly engineered engine. For many, me included, pot boilers and simple engines were the way into the hobby.

Here is an example of a model pot boiler-

(Cant get it to post here- at end of post)

This a Mamod type boiler- the three connections are from the front- water filler cap, safety valve and steam take off.
These boilers are very inefficient, fuel hungry and poor steamers- BUT- they work, and well too. Water goes in- ¾ up the gauge glass (the sight glass in the brass casing on the end plate of the boiler), the fuel is lit and placed under the boiler and once steam is raised in a matter of seconds it starts to drive the engine- normally an oscillating engine (an engine that has no valve gear (the means by which steam admission to the cylinders is controlled) and the cylinders move on a pivot to negate the need for a connecting rod and giving ultimate simplicity)

These boilers can, and have been used in model boats, model buses, cars and fire engines and modified to power all manner of miniature vehicles, mill scenarios and steam workshops.

If you don’t know about steam look on any internet auction site for an example, your local newspaper ad’s, local toy auctions etc- anywhere really, or even buy a new one, they aren’t all that expensive- you will learn far more by having one of these fascinating and endearing hissing and fizzing little beasts than you ever will from any book.

Have a look here for more details of pot boiler models;

www.forest-classics.co.uk/Mamod.htm (http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/Mamod.htm)

More details to follow.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 05, 2010, 11:39:42 pm
The servo gets it's signal from the control box, which in turn is activated by the temperature probe on the boiler.  The 'pot' you saw would be the pressure (technically temperature) set point so

Yes, that pretty much describes what I saw on that day, so I reckon you've answered my question. Although, as I said in the previous one, we got sidetracked so I didn't really get to see much else. I wish I could remember the gent's name, but if you were at the show, all I can tell you is that he had his pitch in that hall at the far the right-hand end of the building from where FLJ was standing. I'm certain he had at least three models on display - it may have been four. Nice bloke; answered all my Qs with no quibble, and would probably have answered more if the other chap hadn't come along.
I didn't find such a unit on Stuart Turner's page, but did spot this...

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/graupner-1966.html

This one differs in that it has a 3-digit readout, whereas the one I saw at the show didn't. Making such a 3-digit beast would be do'able, and still far cheaper than the retail price, but this is where I have to concede, because that valve thingy is waaay over my knowledge of anything steam.
As I said, I'm not muscling-in anyone or such, but merely intrigued as to what is was all about.
Listen, thanks for coming back with the answer.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: frazer heslop on June 05, 2010, 11:55:55 pm
Having built various steam plants over the years with varying degrees of complexity including home built electronic boiler level control and gas attenuator valves I find simple steam plants to be the most enjoyable type  and believe that there is a need for simple concise information so that beginners can begin to understand what is required to build a safe working steam plant .At the end of the day how did most of us start out I know that if was not for the kindness of more experienced modellers and machinists I would never have been in the position of building and designing my own plants. It is up to the individual to seek out the relevant information but at least with help they will know where to look and with guidance hopefully model steam and steam boating should flourish and not die out with this generation.I would like to thank Bunkerbarge for trying to show and encourage people to think about steam.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on June 06, 2010, 12:07:51 am
Yes, that pretty much describes what I saw on that day, so I reckon you've answered my question. Although, as I said in the previous one, we got sidetracked so I didn't really get to see much else. I wish I could remember the gent's name, but if you were at the show, all I can tell you is that he had his pitch in that hall at the far the right-hand end of the building from where FLJ was standing. I'm certain he had at least three models on display - it may have been four. Nice bloke; answered all my Qs with no quibble, and would probably have answered more if the other chap hadn't come along.
I didn't find such a unit on Stuart Turner's page, but did spot this...

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/graupner-1966.html

This one differs in that it has a 3-digit readout, whereas the one I saw at the show didn't. Making such a 3-digit beast would be do'able, and still far cheaper than the retail price, but this is where I have to concede, because that valve thingy is waaay over my knowledge of anything steam.
As I said, I'm not muscling-in anyone or such, but merely intrigued as to what is was all about.
Listen, thanks for coming back with the answer.

this is probably similar to what you saw, just gas controle and they work very well.
http://www.stuartmodels.com/accessories.cfm/mainaccess_type/9/the_type/Electronic%20Gas%20Valve

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 06, 2010, 12:29:26 am
PeeWee, I think that is indeed it. I suddenly remember that battery holder.
So, just to see if I learnt anything that day, am I right in thinking that...

1) The temperture sensor is connected to the unit?
2) And also a servo?
3) You preset the required temp' with the on-board trimmer...
4) and then, when the temp' is reached, will trigger the servo to operate the valve?

Is there a reason for the unit running from it's own separate battery?
There appears to be 2x servo connectors there. What is the second one for?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on June 06, 2010, 01:33:00 am
Picture of one, 1234 are for the sensor and battery then the pins are for servo + servo reverse

Peter

PS was that the right tv show the other week ?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 06, 2010, 03:52:19 am
PeeWee, I think that is indeed it. I suddenly remember that battery holder.
So, just to see if I learnt anything that day, am I right in thinking that...

1) The temperture sensor is connected to the unit?
2) And also a servo?
3) You preset the required temp' with the on-board trimmer...
4) and then, when the temp' is reached, will trigger the servo to operate the valve?

Is there a reason for the unit running from it's own separate battery?
There appears to be 2x servo connectors there. What is the second one for?


1) The temperature sensor screws into a spare plug in the top of the boiler and connects to two of the terminals in the block.
2) The servo plugs into the servo pins, either way round to reverse the action
3) You preset the desired temp/pressure with the on board pot.
4) When the boiler reaches the desired temp/pressure the unit operates the servo which switches the gas valve over from full flame to pilot flame.

When the boiler pressure drops by about 10 psi the unit operates the servo again which switches the gas valve back over to full flame and the temp/pressure starts to rise again.

The great beauty is that when the model is in the middle of the pond and you are not exactly hammering around the burner turns down and stops wasting gas.  This means your model can stay out longer and you are not relieving pressure with the safety valve and spraying dirty water all over your model.

The unit is supposed to run from a dedicated battery to prevent interference when used in conjunction with an Rx battery.  The instructions also suggest that you attach the micro servo to the valve with a couple of supplied cable ties.  I think this is really naff so I made a much more robust arrangement for my own valve.  I also painted mine blue to match the rest of the boiler fittings.  In the picture you can make out the valve, the micro servo and the control box.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 06, 2010, 04:13:16 am
PS was that the right tv show the other week ?

TV show?
You've lost me.
Rather than mess up the thread, can we take this via PM?

Tnx for the explanation/picture, by the way.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 06, 2010, 04:51:06 am
BB~

Appreciate you coming back with all this info. And apologies if you've had to answer the same questions a millions time already.
Having any linkage other than cable ties makes sense - as too does the the separate battery idea. (Initially I thought the separate batt. was perhaps because of some safety/legal issues or such).
If you don't mind, just one more Q...
When the servo kicks in, does it have to travel at a certain set amount of throw for the valve, or does it only have to travel from full left to full right / vice-versa?
You mentioned that the sensor is screwed into the top of the boiler. Would you have a picture I might see?.. or perhaps point me to where you might have photos already on the forum?
One of my brothers, a heating engineer (plumber to you and I), says that's some of the neatest pipework he's seen. Neat colour blue and all.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on June 06, 2010, 08:13:46 am
If you think of it as a model carburetor with a slow running valve it move from open to shut BUT still allows it to pass a small amount of gas to maintain the flame, (like tick over) so when it is opens it the flame returns to the pre set max.

Peter

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boatmadman on June 06, 2010, 08:41:59 am
Just a thought on the temperature derived pressure control comments, is there any mileage in using a surface mount temp probe on the boiler shell, below water level and well insulated from the outside?

This would make such a unit an option for many people who dont have a spare connection into the boiler.

Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on June 06, 2010, 08:46:55 am
this is a ABC unit it has the same temperature sensor plus a slotted opto on the gauge glass and a dip stick in the water tank clever unit but not made at present.


Peter
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on June 06, 2010, 08:59:25 am
finall bit of controle units that where available, its a engine controle for engines with valve gear that need an extra servo, it allows the forward reverse to be operated off one channel
it works by having a self centering stick (similar to reversable electric boats) as you open the throttle the second servo stays still, then as soon as you come back and pass the centre position the servo flicks on the valve gear and as you start to move the stick further it opens the throttle again so you only need one controle and two channel radio instead of three.
theses where a handy device, but sadly not available just looking for a Pic programmer to make one and his fortune  :D

none of these items are needed to make a engine go and I would say to anyone if you are new to steam get a basic plant , no extra valves and gizmo's and just run it for a time you will learn a lot more, then if you want start adding extras if you think you need them , the more you have the more that can go wrong.
ill take a few pictures later of the same type of units installed in my boats (when someone gets them off the shelf for me)

Peter
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 06, 2010, 10:48:03 am
Thankyou, Gerald, for the "other" viewpoint.
Somewhere I have one or two of those books.

I'll look up the others.
Once people start that way they can always move up to the more complex stuff, either ready to run or to make themselves.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: flashtwo on June 06, 2010, 10:49:27 am
Hi Peter,

I built a PIC version of your description for my flash steam boat "Vital Byte" (see other threads).  The method was as you described with one radio channel representing astern-neutral-ahead and also the throttle position.

There was no problem with the PIC unit, but the flash boiler was directly connected to the engine without the usual throttle valve with the "throttle" signal being used to set the electric feed pump output to the boiler which, for a flash boiler, quite quickly alters the steam output to the engine.

I found in practice that, having found a good throttle/feed flow setting, that, on changing direction, I would loose the exact position on the transmitter throttle stick that I preferred.

In the end I used a separate channel for setting the feed flow ( and normally left the preferred setting) and used the throttle stick just for astern-neutral-ahead. I still retained the PIC in the circuit because I could precisely set the reversing gear linkage independently of the transmitter stick. The stick just had to move 20%, or so, away from the centre position to change direction.

I was using a Robbe F14 with the navy stick, but with the Futaba 6EX I am no longer using the PIC circuit since the transmitter can be set more precisely.

I would think my circuit would work well with a conventional throttle.

As regards the earlier comment about locating the temperature sensor on the outside  of the boiler, I would suggest putting it above the water level  to measure the steam temperature which is the temperature that directly relates to pressure. As long as it has good thermal contact (try using the thermal paste that Maplin sells for heat sinks) with the copper and is well insulated it should work just as well.


Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 06, 2010, 11:43:27 am
I think the biggest problem with the sensor mounted outside the boiler is a serious lag as you have to wait for the shell temperature to change rather than just the steam itself.  I stongly suspect the shell temperature actually varies very little so would not produce a useable signal for the unit.  There are usually spare plugs on the shell but if not you may have to connect some other items on a manifold to free one up.

I've attached a picture of the probe in the top of a Hemmens Ribbersdale.  I manufactured a fitting to enable me to combine the safety valve and the isolation valve but most vertical boilers have a couple of spare plugs.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 07, 2010, 11:45:17 am
Gondolier, many thanks for the descriptions of the simpler end of things.  I think this thread should, perhaps, be split, so that the really simple end isn't mixed with the more complex stuff being described by PMK, BB, et al.
Such as the Beginners' Guide and the Intermediate Guide maybe?

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 07, 2010, 06:46:22 pm
Thanks Vint', at least someone wants the simple things explaining!!!! %)

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 07, 2010, 07:23:32 pm
Just a suggestion, to start with, so we can build up to all the gassy, sensoring, pooterised boiling systems later!

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: PMK on June 08, 2010, 03:50:12 am
"...so that the really simple end isn't mixed with the more complex stuff being described by PMK, BB, et al."

No, no - please don't run away with the idea that I know what I'm talking about. My knowledge of anything steam is, to say the least, somewhat thin on the ground and I'm only treading these boards in the hope of seeing what other snippets of info. I might learn from the more knowledgable ones.
BB and HS93 have both answered all my Qs adaquately (thank you, chaps), but (as you can probably make out), I am still very much in the dark as you.
'Twixt you, I and the gatepost, I was quite taken with Flashtwo's gizmo (see his previous threads) which triggered all the interest again. Apart from that, just about everything I know about steam can so far probably be written on the reverse of a postage stamp.
Hopefully all that will change if the steam boys keep writing these articles.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: barryfoote on June 08, 2010, 07:58:50 am
I really am sorry about this guys, but I think the problem lies in the thread title. "Beginners Guide". Whilst full of very useful information, it is NOT a guide for beginners and as such can do no more than put aspiring steam "doers" off!!

A beginner really does need step by step instructions, not separate bits in varying order, scattered about a thread. I do hope you experts understand. What can be done about it, I do not know, but as I have said earlier, the title simply is not right..
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: MichaelK on June 08, 2010, 08:45:34 am
Hi Folks, I'm just starting to build my 1st steam powered boat, (and 2nd boat ever)  %%
I personally think this is a brilliant thread. Enough of the simple stuff, and enough experience from many steamers to keep me going onwards. I now know to keep it simple to start with(engine, boiler, burner, gas tank) I'm sure these will keep me busy for a while. Then retrofit all the bells and whistles as I make the mistakes.
Thank you
Mick
 :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 08, 2010, 09:04:25 am
Well, there in a nutshell, eh?  Forums!  One's OK with it, one isn't happy, others are ambivolent.

Still think it could be split in two for easier introduction to new viewers of the topic to choose between, but I wouldn't want to put anyone off of reading anything that's here.  I've just been sifting through the posts and reading the ones that are relevant to me.  If I see "gas" or any proprietary names I pass by.

Maybe that's best, but above all, please don't anyone stop posting.

Oh, did anyone see my question about displacement lubricators?  Size, location, detail?

Regards
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 08, 2010, 09:34:57 am
To my way of thinking most beginners that venture into steam have some modelling &/or real world engineering experiences under their belts. I think our "beginners" are a notch above the norm because of this. When I see pictures & meet  "steamers" I see the majority are grey haired retired persons like myself. There are indeed a few youngsters in their thirties but very few younger than that. The youngsters want speed... fast electric, fast IC.... Instant gratification. They want to race ! Not only is steam prohibitive for speed ( forgive me flash steam guys) it can also be expensive & time consuming.

So after saying all that, the "spectrum" of knowledge I read in this thread ( to me) seems more applicable... :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 08, 2010, 10:28:21 am
The problem if problem it be, benjamin is that any hobbies requiring application and retention of knowledge or effort seem to be populated by grey haired guys from 45 onwards. 
That goes for old cars, bikes, boats, aircraft, most models, architecture (house restoration), canals, vintage car racing, engineering, furniture....I can't think of any other interests in which I actively or once actively participated.

Since none of them will die out until all we greys are dead, do we actually care?
Selfish, but pertinent.
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 08, 2010, 10:54:26 am
We are mere mortals, the written word is eternal...  :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 08, 2010, 11:00:14 am
And also the grey haired brigade were brought up in a world full of "real" dangers containing things like "Mamod" fire starters, certainly tuaght you that meths fires couldn't be seen at times. Not like todays Re-set button.  {-)

  I find it sad having to refer beginners to books as in "our" day that was the first point of contact with any hobby. Perhaps it's a different mindset but we were taught to read things first and if the meanings were unclear then ask questions. Depends how much you actually want to get into a subject, but just as there are those who like building and those who like playing I would have thought the same with "the need to steam".

  Perhaps its Alzimmmers, but does anyone else have problems dragging info out of libraries nowadays?? All the toy subjects used to be in ONE area, now it seems everything is jumbled with full size practice. Found one of George Thomas s' books in with production engineering??

   Regards Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boatmadman on June 08, 2010, 11:06:24 am
Whilst I agree with what has been said about grey hairs being the main interest in steam, I think there is room for some basic info and tips.

Here is my input on sight glasses:

Why have them?

When operating a boiler, one of the most basic safety requirements is to have water in it, otherwise 1) no steam, 2) potentially melting boiler! So, we have a sight glass to see the water level.

In principal, if you cant see the water level in the glass, do not light the burner - simples! Or is it? If you have overfilled the boiler without realising it and you now cant see the level, how can you be absolutely sure there is water in it? I know you know you have just filled it, but are you REALLY sure?

This was drummed into me as an apprentice so deeply I am almost paranoid about it - which has helped a number of times as I operate full size high pressure boilers for a living.

So, how to find if the glass is full or empty? easy, using the principals of refraction, get a straight piece of wire, or thin pencil or similar, hold it at an angle behind the glass. If its empty the straight object will look straight, if the glass is full, you will see the part behind the glass 'bent' at a different angle to the part not behind the glass.

Remember - NO WATER = NO FIRE

ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 08, 2010, 12:52:07 pm
Now that is REAL good tip.
Thanks, Ian.

In my wee pot boilers, probably not used but well worth knowing.
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 08, 2010, 01:01:40 pm
JUST as important in a pot boiler- any water at pressure is above 100degC meaning that if the boiler did melt it would explode as the water rapidly flashes to steam in atmospheric pressure.

That is why pot boilers have a high water content to fuel ratio- the fuel should ALWAYS run out before the water.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 08, 2010, 01:14:17 pm
Another one for the non thinkers to grasp Greg.

  A "Low pressure" pot boiler is far more dangerous in the event of a bang than a flash steam plant.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on June 08, 2010, 02:43:29 pm
Brought to a point by the sticker on the back of Mamod boxes- 'These engines are NOT a toy', says it all really.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: geoff p on June 08, 2010, 02:49:29 pm
@ Circlip, First you have to have a Public Library available: some fifteen years ago when I was teaching in Oman, we had a smashing little library at the British Council's place.  Suddenly it was emptied of books and the space taken up by posters and displays to encourage people to study at This, or That or T'other British University.  "Where are the books?"  "Oh we threw them in the skip."

I'm sure many other libraries have gone in much the same way.

Whilst I am not (quite) a beginner in steam - I've built several engines - I do enjoy reading the basics, over and over again.  Each time, something new (to me) comes to the fore, like a Eureka moment, sometimes causing me to modify what I had been doing or the train of thought.

Especially useful are the questioning stance of PMK, so that others amongst us need to explain and therefore to think about the answers.

Thank you, all, for an interesting thread.

Geoff
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boatmadman on June 08, 2010, 05:45:34 pm
Sight glass blowdown valve.

What is it and why is it fitted?

It is a drain to atmosphere from the bottom of the sight glass. Its purpose is to vent to atmosphere the contents of the glass, and to prove the tappings through to both the water and steam side are clear.

In full size applications, there are isolation valves between the glass and the steam and water side of the boiler. This allows individual verification that the steam and water tappings are clear.

I have never seen this set up in model boilers and I'm not really sure why, the need to prove the glass is working properly is just as important as in full size.

Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 08, 2010, 05:56:39 pm
Boatmadman, I've seen them almost as a matter of course on locomotives down to Gauge 1.

As to Mamods being dangerous?
Only if run by an idiot. I used my SEL and my various cousins and mates' Mamods ever since I was a kid with no problems at all. Even if the water ran out, but as you rightly said, the fuel always ran out first, but we did see some solder seepage occasionally!

I wouldn't be using a Mamod as such, I'd be silver soldering my own, with some water tubes a la W.J.Hughes, LBSC et al, but keeping it simple.  It's gas that scares me, partly the obvious, mainly the price of the bits required, so I'll stick to meths or even fuel blocks.
If I get bored, well, maybe I'll move up a bit.

In which case, how does one get a vulcan certificate and how much does it cost.  just in case.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: benjaml1 on June 08, 2010, 06:08:51 pm
Sight glass blowdown valve.

What is it and why is it fitted?

It is a drain to atmosphere from the bottom of the sight glass. Its purpose is to vent to atmosphere the contents of the glass, and to prove the tappings through to both the water and steam side are clear.

In full size applications, there are isolation valves between the glass and the steam and water side of the boiler. This allows individual verification that the steam and water tappings are clear.

I have never seen this set up in model boilers and I'm not really sure why, the need to prove the glass is working properly is just as important as in full size.

Ian

The bottom tap is prone to sediment blockage, blowdown ensures it's clear on the recovery ( hopefully) of liquid level... It's a safety check really that the reading is true..
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: dave301bounty on June 08, 2010, 07:38:48 pm
This brings to mind ,On boiler surveys the glasses were always smashed ,and new ones put in .This particular Engineer of this ship I was on ,he would save the glasses .I was alwas very dubious when it was my turn to blow the glasses . And years later I heard of a very bad accident on this ship ..no need to say anymore . Steam is a Good servant , but a Bad master .
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 08, 2010, 07:45:46 pm
On a real ships gauge glass there should be a stainless steel ball in the lower valve.  The idea of this is that if the glass breaks the ball is lifted onto a seat and closes off the water side.  This prevents the escape of water, which would then flash off into steam as soon as it was released.  It's surprising the number of engineers who are not aware of this and do not clean this valve out thoroughly during a boiler survey.

Not part of a beginners guide before anyone says anything but I thought there may be some who found it interesting.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: dave301bounty on June 08, 2010, 07:51:20 pm
That is another thing I did,nt know ,thanks ,how about my souvenirs though .got a set of glasses .plus a Fuse/able plug .now that is some thing .massive brass never ?used .
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sheerline on June 08, 2010, 10:44:02 pm
Now there's a thing I didn't know BB. I often used to look at loco water guages and think " God help anyone if that glass breaks" but the device you  mentioned is so simple yet effective and must have saved countless lives. I assume it would be fitted to all large boilers.
You learn something every day. :-))

May I be so bold and with the greatest of respect add a couple of comments?

Reading through one or two comments in this thread, perhaps it needs to be decided whether this is for knowledgable beginners or absolute beginners ie, youngsters who have never played with a steam plant or worse, never seen one. When I wrote the manuals for the submarines they were directed at someone who had absolutely no experience whatever in any of the diciplines be it mechanical or electrical/ radio and with this in mind all the way through, these manuals have allowed total novices to not only build a sub but fully understand the principles and operate one. So, in the case of steam, there a lot of people out there who would love to have a steam boat but A: can't afford one and B: have absolutely no idea regarding anything about what makes them work.

I think what may be a good idea is to start a thread showing  how to put the most simple of boats together using  an old dismantled Mamod or Wilesco stationary engine, explaning simply how it works and how to bring the relevant components together in a hull. I am certain this would fire quite a few youngsters immagination as it wouldn't cost much to accumulate the bits and assembly would be extremely basic with fairly quick results. Once inspired, some may go on to greater things but at least the seed of success would be sown.
Even to the grey haired amongst us, the sheer simplicity of the subject can make for compulsive viewing and even some useful input but the basic principle of absolute simplicity and simple language should prevail.
It is easy to get carried away with the knowledge we have aquired over the years and it takes great skill to convey a message in such such simple terms that all can understand it.

Just my thoughts BB and perhaps this is what you had originally intended with this thread . If i had enough spare time on my hands I would do this myself but unfortunately i haven't and can only suggest it and stand back and let someone else consider it.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 09, 2010, 12:03:02 am
Thanks for the input Sheerline, which I think is spot on.  The idea of a Mamod/Wilesco build thread would also be an ideal vehicle to generate some interest and questions and perhaps keep the thinking firmly planted but finding someone with the time on thier hands to do such a thing might be a bit more of a challenge.  The trouble is of course there will always be varying degrees of expertise which will, by the very nature of a forum thread, come out and lead to discussion that can then detract from the original.  The trouble is you never really know who is reading it and how many people think it is pitched at the right level.

One argument would have to be if it is pitched at a slightly higher level then absolute beginners will pick out what they want and ignore the rest so you should be appealling to a wider audience.  If it is completely basic then you are loosing the interest of those slightly higher up the scale.  As for splitting it you still have the decisions, which seem to generate quite a wide variation of opinions, of what to include in which thread.

As I'm also at work and tied up quite a lot during the day I'm currently happy to let the thread find it's own level and rely on the exellent input from the likes of Gondola to generate further questions.  I'm just watching from the sideline to see where it is going. 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 09, 2010, 09:34:49 am
This thread seems to have become a thread about the nature of the thread instead of the subject, with just the odd diversion into steam.
I have asked a question twice on here and had no response, so as they say on The Dragons...I'm out.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on June 09, 2010, 09:54:31 am
Afore ye gan awa Vintagent, your question mentioned in post 74?. Despite re-reading the whole 2 pages, I can't find your question re lubricators??

   Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wideawake on June 09, 2010, 12:36:30 pm
Afore ye gan awa Vintagent, your question mentioned in post 74?. Despite re-reading the whole 2 pages, I can't find your question re lubricators??

   Regards   Ian.

I've just had a look through and I can't find it either.  Please post the question again Vintagent.  I'm sure that someone will try to gve you an answerbefore thet thread drifts again!

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 09, 2010, 12:56:39 pm
This thread seems to have become a thread about the nature of the thread instead of the subject, with just the odd diversion into steam.
I have asked a question twice on here and had no response, so as they say on The Dragons...I'm out.

Regards,
Vintagent

You've asked us twice yet three of us can't find it  {:-{ so if you could either point us in the direction of the original  :D or repeat it  :embarrassed: I'm sure someone will be able to provide an answer. O0
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 09, 2010, 01:03:02 pm
Red faced, I have to admit I think I put it in as a sideline on a different thread.

Oh, nursey, change me pills, luv!

It was about lubricators, size for a small vee twin oscillator, details for making and where to place it in the pipework.
Thanks and sorry about the false alarm.
I've clearly got too much on at the moment!

As another aside, a model railway customer has promised me a Mamod and a wonderful, classy S.E.L. engine.
Can't wait.  Simple, but classy little SEL, all crackle black and shiny bakelite!
But the Mamod will be dismantled for the steam boat until I make the vee twin.

Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wideawake on June 09, 2010, 01:24:26 pm
Red faced, I have to admit I think I put it in as a sideline on a different thread.

Regards,
Vintagent

No problem mate, you won't be the first or last to make a mistake!

WRT lubricators, I've made two in the past, one (non-adjustable) from the articles on the Alpha twin oscillator in ME a few years ago and another (adjustable) from John Bertinat's articles on Marcher from many more years ago.

Unfortunately I don't have a the articles here so can't copy either ATM but someone may have the them to hand.   Personally I prefer the Bertinat item.  It's easy to make as it uses 1/2" tube for the body.

HTH

Guy

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 09, 2010, 03:15:25 pm
Vintagent, If you go to this forum, http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com and put lubricator in the search box you will come up with a lot of threads on the subject and a number of drawings and explanations such as this one:

This particular one condenses the steam which enters from the bottom connection and collects outside the central tube.  This displaces the oil held outside the tube, which then overflows into the central tube and beack along the steam supply pipe.  I would locate such a lubricator on a 'T' peice close to the engine steam inlet.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wideawake on June 09, 2010, 04:31:18 pm
That's an extremely neat idea BB.  It avoids both the need to turn a taper needle and to cross drill with drills in the 60 range both of which many of us find tricky  :((

Diagram saved for future use.

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 09, 2010, 05:20:50 pm
I agree Guy, the best ideas are always the simplest and the way the filling is done through the adjustment valve is so neat and clever.  You might find you require some sort of seal arrangement at that valve though but a simple groove with an 'O' ring sat in it would do the job.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 09, 2010, 05:43:23 pm
Cor!  Ain't it good when you get yourself sorted out?  Help cometh!!

That's very helpful gents. Many thanks.

BB, when you say a tee piece near the feed, do you mean a horizontal tee, so that the steam does a wee detour (or some of it) into the lubricator? 
Also, how does that affect the fact that it's a V-twin?  Does one cylinder get oil in preference to another?  It seems that nice symetrical system would look good on a V engine if it's at all practicable.

I shall be checking that site, meantime, too.

Thanks again.
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: steamboatmodel on June 09, 2010, 06:04:15 pm
Here is a design I picked up.

(http://s1.postimage.org/76YCr.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx76YCr)
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Bunkerbarge on June 09, 2010, 06:34:16 pm
The lubricator should be in the steam supply line before it gets to the steam control valve so the oil lubricates the control valve and both cylinders evenly be they either an in line or a 'V' configuration.

As for connection, yes, a horizontal 'T' should do the trick, here's a Hemmens lubricator on a Richmond engine, the steam inlet is at the top of this type but the arrangement of the connection is just the same.  It's worth remembering that this type of lubricator, as opposed to the one in the drawing above, does not have any form of control, it simply relies on the diameter of the inlet hole:

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: vintagent on June 09, 2010, 07:14:33 pm
That's brilliant, chaps.  Gotcha.  Many thanks.

I hadn't thought about a control valve, but I suppose it might be nice.
I was just going to give it a flick and sit back!    Doh!! never say it sir, soap and water!
Regards,
Vintagent
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: CaptVos on July 14, 2010, 12:17:22 am
Hey guys, there are pages upon pages of information here that i am reading through but it is taking me a while to find the information, although it is good information! I was wondering if someone could point me in the rigt direction of a relatively cheap straight forward but powerful butane burning steam engine for a tug(which is why i said strong, or can a gearbox be aadded to steam too?) if someone could answer for me illl leave this ssection alone for a while till i blow myself up!





CaptVos
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: derekwarner on July 14, 2010, 01:30:43 am
To reach the illustrious title of captain  :police: ....you must have served many years studying...so it is the same with steam

1. There is no fast way to amass a worldly knowledge on steam  >>:-(

2. There is no relatively cheap straight forward but powerful butane burning steam engine  <:(

3. The 70/30 gas burning component is the boiler, this produces the steam that powers the steam engine  :-))

Sorry  :o CapVos....could I suggest the steam archives here on Mayhem will provide you with an excellent path for reading until you are able to ask questions that can be answered .....Derek
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: CaptVos on July 14, 2010, 01:44:06 am
I see, i think im just to overly excited i love stuff like this! sorry guys.........preciate it though!







CaptVos
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on July 14, 2010, 07:42:44 am
Let's be practical here-

What are the particulars of your boat?

What will you be using it for?

What budget do you have and what do you call 'cheap'?

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gyronuts on July 14, 2010, 08:39:55 pm
Silly question but what Gas do you chaps recommend, and where do you buy it, for a cheddar plant. thanks,Bill
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: gondolier88 on July 14, 2010, 08:51:42 pm
70/30 butane/propane mix, I use Coleman camoing gas cylinders- but GoGas and other suppliers will do just as fine- as long as they are 70/30 mix and have a thread connection to fit your gas refill addaptor onto.

Greg
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 14, 2010, 09:33:21 pm
O MR BUNKERBARGE WHAT A HULLABALOO,
YOU'VE CREATED SUCH A STUSHIE,
NOW WHAT CAN YOU DO.

3- pages of advice and not one of the experts have recommended that a newcomer should join a club, preferably one with a steam section where you can be helped along the way.
A newcomer must be frightened to death with , electronic boiler controls, lubricators and other gismos.
Steam plants don't come cheap as 75% of the expert advisers (cheque book modelers) will tell you, all these kit boats and bought steam plants would need a bank loan.
Yes use Mamod and Wilesco and build a boat with one installed, the boat doesn't need to be pretty, look at FLASHTWO his interest is in computerised control and the boat is only a vehicle but it sails.
So don't be put off with some of the things that you read on the forum, I would advise K.N.Harris books on steam engines and boilers they come up regularly on e-bay.
B.B.  a great idea to help beginners but   THE BEST LAID SCHEMES OF MICE AND MEN GANG AFT............   and get high jacked
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 14, 2010, 09:36:10 pm
P.S.  i'm off on holiday to the Lake district so I will miss all the death threats and curse.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: CaptVos on July 14, 2010, 10:42:26 pm
well ive been researching and found a little tug called the springer tug on here and it looks like a simple yet nice model to build and highly customizable, i see that most people are using single screw electric drives, now i want to keep the single screw drive but i want to do a steam plant (mind you it has to be small since there is limited space) i have a budget of around 300-400 bucks for everything. the purpose for my tug is going to be general use tuging, pushing and towing so it is going to need a big prop strong power plant and probably a good tranny to top it off.




CaptVos
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boatmadman on July 15, 2010, 08:26:31 am
Captvos,

Whilst I am sure it could be done, I think you might find it difficult to fit a steam plant in a springer. There are many more components required for steam than electric. Also, you might find running time reduced with steam compared to electric, unless you have some form of boiler water level control.

Have you any previous experience with steam? If not, I would suggest you go to your local club and talk to someone with a steam boat. There are safety issues around steam you need to be aware of as well.

Twin prop springers can be done, I builr one with twin steerable kort nozzles, very manouverable and lots of power.

Ian
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on July 15, 2010, 08:39:05 am
Quote
I would advise K.N.Harris books on steam engines and boilers they come up regularly on e-bay.

  Don't even have to buy it now ooyah/2 , (I bought my copies years ago), K.N. would be a rich man on royalties from the recommendations on this forum alone for the number of times I've put it forward, same with "Experimental Flash Steam" from the dynamic duo, seems reading is a dying art.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: SteamboatPhil on July 15, 2010, 10:43:49 am
CaptVos, oh you can get a steam plant into a springer, here is mine, it has a semi-flash boiler, voporizing petrol blowlamp and a flat twin 1/2 bore and stroke single acting engine (E T Wesbury design)
Chugs along at a fair old rate of knots
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boatmadman on July 15, 2010, 11:11:10 am
Thats me told  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: CaptVos on July 15, 2010, 05:03:58 pm
steamboat phil that is an excellent setup there, very clean id have to say and the motor looks well taken care of not dirty or anything at alll! iill probably agree with you guys electric is the way to go im currently in the tug R&D section discussing plans for a pushboat modeled after the ones on the mississippi here......she will be electric! thanks guys...




CaptVos
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Fred Graham on July 30, 2010, 03:53:14 pm
Hi Folks,

I make and use paraffin and petrol blowlamps for firing boilers. Now that LPG is in more common use it seems very difficult to find a supplier of jets (or nipples) for use on blowlamps.

The are many old articles in Model Engineer which talk about obtaining them from hardware shops but the seem to be as rare as hen's teeth. I have trawlwd the internet and find only LPG and sites which have blowlamp colectors but seldom find a supplier of blowlamp spares.

Anyone Know of one?

All the best, Fred Graham
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: SteamboatPhil on July 30, 2010, 08:47:38 pm
A little tip Fred (don't tell anyone).
Nip off to boot sales, there somewhere you will find someone selling old blowlamps for use as decorative items, now this is where its gets clever, pick up said item, check it has the jet, offer the seller a quid for the just the jet (be fair people who put them on the mantlepiece don't need the jet), and now while the seller will be more than happy to accept, only because he can't see how you're going to get the little jet out,.............but ..... this is where you whip out your jet key, and hey everone happy.
I've been doing this for ages (and I always carry a spare jet key) so I have got myself a fair stock (mind you I have got 11 boats with petrol blowlamps).
I have tried making my own, broke too many drills just to produce 1 good jet----doh !!!!

Go on give it a go   :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Canopus on June 14, 2011, 02:05:20 pm
I have been running a Cheddar models Puffin unit for about 6 years now and whilst found it relatively expensive to purchase has been great fun and a worthwhile investment. Sadly Cheddar are no longer trading so that route is closed.

I think a beginner would be interested in some general tips, in no particular order:

1) Steam is great fun but it's not like an electric motor it needs some sensible servicing and looking after.

2) It's duration on the water is strictly limited unless you get water feed pumps which increases the complexity and expense.

4) A Puffin unit will run for 30 mins non stop with a gentle fire.

5) Simple is best but a single acting Mamod unit or similar, wont self start and won't give you much power albeit it will chug along a small model for maybe 15 mins? You may also find the limitations of such a unit rapidly put you off, but they can still be fun but don't expect exciting performance.

6) Keep it simple and don't try to buy all the gizmo's out there until you have gained some practical experience of actually sailing steam. If your first installation is too complex you will get discouraged as one adjustment leads to another.

7) Steam is not hard but it is hot and it is different from electric.

8) By and large an electric motor will allways be significantly cheaper, have much more power and be easier to control than a steam engine, but, it's not as much fun!

9) Unfortunately to get a practical steam plant off the shelf that will perform like an electric motor will cost in the region of £400 - £700. By that I mean steam up, sail with proportional forward and reverse and a reasonable duration, say 30 mins, but it will last a lifetime and will continue to chug away long after the electric motor had expired.

10) Generally steam is not for fast boats - a gentle walking pace is about the best you will get, unless you start to get complex and expensive.

11) It is not hard to operate, you will probably gain practical knowledge in about 2-3 sails.

12) Don't be discouraged by the complexities - most of us drive but don't know how a car works in detail! Steam is the same, it's fine to just try it, but as per item 9) above, it's not cheap.

Hope this helps

Geoff

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wrongtimeben on May 15, 2012, 07:42:47 pm
As a new member, i hardly feel worthy enough to comment, but would like to thank all those who've made relevant and helpful contributions. 

My journey in steam began about 20 years ago with a Mamod steam engine. i fired it up for the first time in about 18 years the other day. i was chuffed as punch until the pivot screw stripped and shot me in the chest whilst the boiler emptied its contents in the opposite direction.  I have to say, i did put my coffee down for a minute.

Later on it was deemed a good idea that undertake a cadet ship in marine engineering - it was not- however i did get some education in steam and also a 5 month trip on a steam driven LNG carrier. 

What i have come away with is that steam should be respected, especially the invisible stuff at 60 bar.

However, beginners should not be put off in anyway. i have further been convinced of this, seeing the plant that my uncle installed in S L Wear recently.

I am more than confident in my abilities to construct a boiler in a safe way that complies to regs. BUT is it possible to do so and have it certified without it costing more than buying one off the shelf? 

I look forward to your response

Ben
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on May 15, 2012, 11:22:38 pm
Ben,
 If you have the engineering ability it should be no problem to build your own boiler.

Think about what size of boiler and type you wish to make as you will have to buy a piece of copper tube and all the materials to make your boiler bushes and fittings.

A must for a newcomer to steam is K.N.Harris's book Model boilers and Boiler making in it you will get all of the Calcs needed to build your boiler.

No doubt uncle Jerry will help you and yes it will cost much less than a commercially bought one and join a club that has boiler testers to certificate your work when completed, give Jerry my regards
George.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wrongtimeben on May 16, 2012, 03:50:30 pm
Thanks george.

I was up late last night reading k n harris' work.  His engines book is, finally helping me piece together the puzzle of slide valve design.  People keep telling me to build an oscillator first, but i really dont want to. 

Regards will be sent to Jerry. I'll have word with Alice and get her to convince him to help me.

Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

Thanks again.

Ben
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on May 16, 2012, 04:57:30 pm
Quote
Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

 Not repeatedly, a Barring device is required. For reliability, you need a twin double acting with cranks at 90deg. to each other.

  Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wrongtimeben on May 16, 2012, 05:53:52 pm
Thanks Ian,

A twin it is.  Although i do have a drysuit that could be donned for swimming retrievals.

By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft.  have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it.  do people do such things for model boats?

Ben
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on May 16, 2012, 08:41:04 pm
By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft.  have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it.  do people do such things for model boats?

Ben
[/quote]

Ben,

People have come up with all sorts of Heath Robinson devices, myself included, to make single cylinder engines reversible and self starting with a medium amount of success.
Best way without a doubt is a twin cylinder, either slide valve or piston valve.

Patternmaker has a thread on building  a boiler ( http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28450.0 ) in the steam section , also not so long ago in the steam section Building a Stuart V twin and boiler, this will give you some ideas on boiler building.(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=92.0

Do you have access to machinery, lathe or mill ?

Can I suggest that you ask the moderator to shift this thread to Steam.

George.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: wrongtimeben on May 16, 2012, 09:56:40 pm
Thanks george,

i'll have a look at those posts.

Yes, i have a small lathe, which will soon be equipped with vertical slide. I like to overcome challenges!

Also, will act on your suggestion and try to get thread/posts moved.

Many thanks,

Ben.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on May 16, 2012, 11:33:38 pm
Ben,
 Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: TheLongBuild on May 16, 2012, 11:39:49 pm
Ben,
 Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.
You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: ooyah/2 on May 17, 2012, 09:24:14 am
You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.

How then do you contact the Moderator to move the Thread ?
George.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on May 17, 2012, 11:07:01 am

Just click on the name od Moderator and send a private mail.

it IS your club, after all.     :-))

ken

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on May 17, 2012, 01:35:29 pm
One point that never ceases to amaze is that by using a single acting single cylinder engine, be it oscillator/slide or piston valve and adding a V/P propeller, forward/reverse and all points in between are available using a constant revving engine.  %% so we then get back to a simple installation. Whilst some of the bling queens (Chill George  :-)) )seen at exhibitions and at the pondside could frighten the beginner off, you don't need to spend a mint to enjoy burnin yer fingies.  O0

  Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: patternmaker on May 17, 2012, 04:07:43 pm
Who are the so called bling queens Ian ?

Mick
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Circlip on May 17, 2012, 05:14:14 pm
No Mick, this is a beginners guide to steam.  O0 and no, I don't want a free pen.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: David Parker on September 29, 2014, 05:38:16 pm
Hi,
   Can anyone offer advice?.I need to have my steam boiler tested which is now 1yr old and cannot locate any organization to pressure test and certificate it.I have asked at my local model club but have drawn a blank,i would hate to have to change to electric.
 :((
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boneash on September 29, 2014, 08:03:44 pm
Horribly Dave you are unlikely to get a certificate and therefore insurance for public use. the general rule appears to be that only boilers built by a CE boiler firm can be certified. That is the reason Flashtwo and others have headed to the once thro or flash boiler, this avoids the rules as it doesn't store energy.
Even in modern power stations, my lads who were able to carry out repairs to 660 mega watt steam boilers were unable to get certification of their model boilers for traction engines, boats etc.
AND the accident rate of model steam compared with chip pans doesn't hold that there is an excessive risk!!
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: David Parker on September 29, 2014, 08:19:30 pm
Sorry boneash,
the boiler was made by John Hemmens Steam Engineer for which I have a boiler test certificate until 26.10.2014,as this was manufactured a professional company will this make a difference in getting a test certificate.
 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: boneash on September 29, 2014, 08:21:46 pm
That should not be a problem then....at the right club!!

Good luck
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: hammer on September 29, 2014, 09:25:30 pm
It is possible to get a none CE boiler certificated it is just very difficult. Before starting find a club with a inspector and join it. Show the inspector your calculations & the materials you intend to use. He will take your boiler seriously, even though our boat boilers are lower pressure & smaller than loco boilers, the usual in a model engineering club.  The inspector may want to see the boiler during construction. Then if the test is passed you will get a certificate.
Google for model engineering clubs in your area there must be a 7,5,or3.5 rail track somewhere near. Your boiler should require a steam test only at 1 year old.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: David Parker on September 30, 2014, 02:23:44 pm
Many thanks,will contact local Model Engineering Club. :-)
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2014, 02:07:24 pm
There seems to be the same old issues of a boiler certificate being required. My understanding is that under the 3 bar litre rule if a boiler capacity is under that figure (working pressure in bars x capacity in litres) than a test certificate is not required for public use. Whether this is wise is a different kettle of fish, but to summarise:
 
1) If under 3 bar litres you can use it on a public pond. A certificate is not legally required. The 3 bar litre rule is european law and its actually illegal to impose other laws but see below.
 
2) If you join a model club/engineering club then you have to obey their rules and requirements which means you will doubtless need a test certificate to qualify for their insurance scheme
 
3) Curiously this means as a club member sailing on a public park you need a test certificate but if sailing on the same water (at the same time) in a private capacity you do not.
 
4) If you want to sail at an MPBA event then a certificate is typically required
 
5) If you want to sail at a private event it depends on the organisers whether they want a certificate or not. Its their call.
 
6) Check your household insurance as mine covers me for accidents arising out of my hobbies which includes model boats and planes under a certain size with no restrictions. If it's not excluded it is covered and there is case law on this.
 
7) Some clubs over complicate the issue and indeed want a sample of the boiler material and to be involved in seeing it under construction. This is overkill and just not required.
 
8) For example we had a visit some years ago from a guy at an engineering club and he stated this to the extent he would refuse to test a Cheddar boiler as he did not have a sample of the copper it was made from and anyway as it was commercially built for profit it probably wasn't very good!!! Utter rubbish. As a club we just ignored it and got on with our modelling.
 
9) As this thread is meant for beginners lets try not to put them off steam by making it too complicated.
 
10) As above whether this is wise is irrelevant, the law is the law
 
 
I shall now await the tirad of abuse!!
 
Just enjoy the hobby and use your common sense. In ten years of steam I have never been asked for a certificate (I do have one by the way but that was because I wanted to sail an an event that required it).
 
Enjoy
 
Geoff
 
 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: sparkey on October 01, 2014, 04:24:17 pm
 <*< <*< Does that mean that the certificate issues by the company that made the boiler only lasts for one year and after that it needs retesting,seems a bit over the top as some of the steam guys only use their boats about 4 times a year, as a person who is thinking of spending about a £1000 on a boiler and engine set up for a steam launch I want to build,all this a bit of a put off and I am beginning  to wonder is it worth all the hassle,Ray. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2014, 04:29:58 pm
I believe, but others do correct me if I am wrong, but with a new boiler the certificate is valid for 2 years from the date of purchase. This is because a new boiler is typically tested to twice its working pressure.
 
Thereafter the boiler should typically be tested annually to 1.5 times is working pressure, subject otherwise to the above discussion.
 
There are actually two tests done:
 
1) Hydraulic pressure test to ensure the boiler is not leaking
 
2) Steam test to ensure that with maximum burner input the safety valve lifts at the working pressure and then is sufficiently "exhausting" to ensure a drop/no further increase in the boiler pressure. Basically that the safety valve is big enough for the job.
 
 
Regards
 
Geoff
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: David Parker on October 01, 2014, 05:00:15 pm
I have been in touch with John Hemmens who manufactured my Ribbersdale Boiler and iam advised that the boiler has a capacity of 0.5 litres and a working pressure of 5.3 bar,this makes it 2.65 bar litres which is under 3.0 bar litres and will not require a Hydraulic Test.
As i have used the boiler during within the twelve months since it was purchased i am advised to have it tested under steam so i can continue to sail on a public lake.
My problem is finding an inspector who will test it,i am willing to pay a fee. :-)
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2014, 05:25:39 pm
I think the three bar litre rule applies to both the boiler pressure test and the steam test so no actual issues in sailing on a public pond.
 
Albeit wise to check the safety valve works regularly for obvious reasons
 
G
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 01, 2014, 05:26:45 pm
What part of the UK do you live in as our club can do the testing but it may not be viable if you are outside Essex
 
G
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: David Parker on October 01, 2014, 06:48:48 pm
I live in Waltham Abbey Essex and am willing to travel.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: hammer on October 01, 2014, 09:13:45 pm
Good it wasn't that difficult after all.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: AlexC on October 01, 2014, 09:28:02 pm
I think the three bar litre rule applies to both the boiler pressure test and the steam test so no actual issues in sailing on a public pond.
 
Albeit wise to check the safety valve works regularly for obvious reasons
 
G

Since 1st Jan 2013 the 3 bar/litre rule no longer applies.
Prior to that date any boiler of 3bar/litre or less was exempt from any testing.
 
The new rules state that for boilers under 3 bar/litres it must be Hydraulically tested to 2 x max working pressure and then, after all fitting are added it should be Hyraulically tested to 1.5 x max working pressure... providing it has passed these tests then the hydraulic test lasts for the life of the boiler.
It therefore will not need this test done again, unless the boiler needs to be repaired... at which time it is treated as a new boiler and will need both Hydraulic test repeating.
 
The second part of the test process is the steam accumulation test... this is only valid for 1 year and must be successfully retested in order to remain legal.

Your boiler will only need to pass this steam test.

I attach a copy of the current test code.
Section 14 covers small boiler under 3 bar/litres... section 14.6 covers the steam test.
 
There are 2 engineering clubs near you: -
 
Hoddesdon model railway club.
 
Chingford and District model engineering club.
 
Both have steam enthusiasts and run live steam railways so either should have a boiler inspector/tester.
 
 
I hope this helps.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC :-))
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 02, 2014, 01:51:55 pm
Thank you for clarifying the rules and I am quite prepared to concede I am wrong in the 3 bar litre rule.
 
I do however have some questions having just read the "code" as it seems both narrow and contradictory in places.
 
It appears to me this applies to all clubs and societies. Seriously I'm not looking to "nit pick" just trying to get a better understanding of how this all works in practice as in the code;
 
1) Section 1.2 says the PSSR does not normally apply to persons operating pressure equipment as a hobby activity. However the HSS considers it good practice etc...
 
2) This goes on to say the document has been prepared after consultation with various engineering societies and provides a list
 
3) The purpose, section 2.1 further lists the various societies this applies to which under section 14 includes all boilers irrespective of size so this brings in the 3 bar litre threshold.
 
4) However this guide appears to be for the use of various societies and whilst expressions such as good practice are referenced this would appear to be different from the law of the land. It also says in 1.2 "as if they were duty holders" Again this distinction is very different from saying this is a legal requirement.
 
5) Section 1.4 references the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 but this applies to work place practice
 
Irrespective of what is good practice and wise etc the code appears to apply to all model engineering societies and clubs etc but what about Joe public.
 
If Joe public is sailing a steam powered vessel on a public lake then none of these rules would appear to apply legally as he is not a member of a club/engineering society etc. and he is not at work.
 
So Joe public can do what he wants? Is this a correct interpretation?
 
Just trying to flush this all out.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
 
 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: AlexC on October 02, 2014, 04:53:11 pm
 
Section 1.4 references the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 but this applies to work place practice
 
Irrespective of what is good practice and wise etc the code appears to apply to all model engineering societies and clubs etc but what about Joe public.
 
If Joe public is sailing a steam powered vessel on a public lake then none of these rules would appear to apply legally as he is not a member of a club/engineering society etc. and he is not at work.
 
So Joe public can do what he wants? Is this a correct interpretation?
 
Just trying to flush this all out.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff

Hi Geoff,
 
In a nutshell... NO... Joe public cannot do just what he likes.
 
The Health and Safety at work act extends well beyond factories and offices etc.
 
A public park or privately owned lake complex is also a workplace for some people... Park-keepers, Groundsmen, lake banks and bridge workers etc... so HSE applies.
 
Most public lakes and parks are owned and maintained by Local Councils and they apply local bye-law rules... privately owned lakes are subject to the owners rules of use.
 
For people using any lake facilities for the purpose of sailing model boats the owner/council generally require the user to have adequate third party insurance to protect the owner/council from litigation in the event of an accident.
Where model steam is concerned such insurance will require the production of a valid boiler test certificate before cover will be given... this means passing a boiler pressure and steam test.
 
The code presented, whilst not the Law of the Land (per se), is a hard fought for and agreed subset of the PSSR regulations, which are LAW, specifically obtained for model steam boilers.
 
Before this code became agreed, we had to pass the PSSR regulations tests and they are much more complex, and very much more expensive.
 
It is actually and offence (in the UK) to operate a model boiler in a 'Public place' without a valid pressure and steam test certificate and valid adequate public third party liability insurance.
(Note, this does not include the likes of 'MAMOD' type items, since these are classified as steam toys and are covered by separate legislation... however, some local council bye-laws even prohibit these).
 
To protect what little we have left of the freedom to persue this hobby, it makes sense to follow the guidelines and procedures stated in the code... or we could end up loosing the facilities forever.
Even if not a club member it is still reasonable easy to approach a club in order to get a boiler test certificate, albeit this may involve a small fee... as a member of the club the testing is usually free and, in addition, you may benefit from being covered by the clubs insurance.
Once you have obtained the valid test certificate you can approach most reputable insurance companies for third party model cover... it is not that expensive.
On the other hand... Litigation following even a minor accident involving a member of the public can get very expensive without valid boiler test certificates and/or insurance.
 
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC. :-))
 
 
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Geoff on October 02, 2014, 05:02:20 pm
Thank you, it does.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff :-)
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: BarryM on October 02, 2014, 05:48:32 pm
When calculating the boiler capacity under the 3 bar-litres rule, is this the maximum capacity of the boiler or the capacity to working level? I suspect the former but would appreciate it being confirmed.

Thanks,
Barry M
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: AlexC on October 02, 2014, 08:35:10 pm
Hi Barry,
 
It is the total internal capacity of the boiler in litres multiplied by the working pressure in Bars.
 
Best regards.
 
Sandy. :}
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: BarryM on October 03, 2014, 08:27:04 am
Thanks Sandy,
BM
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Tomokabear on October 31, 2017, 02:28:36 am
I am gathering parts together for steam engine building.  I am having trouble locating phosphor bronze wire and phosphor bronze balls here in the USA.   Can someone provide a link to a vendor anywhere here or overseas who stock those items?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: terry horton on October 31, 2017, 09:40:48 am
Maccmodels Engineering Supplies.... UK Company


Regards
Terry H
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Tomokabear on October 31, 2017, 04:08:20 pm
Thanks Terry, 
I will check them out! 

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Captain fizz on February 12, 2018, 12:17:04 pm
Does anyone have a theoretical Schematic for a typical marine steam installation?
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 12, 2018, 01:37:48 pm
 
This guy is good on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/keithappleton/featured

Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: steamboatmodel on February 12, 2018, 04:06:57 pm


This guy is good on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/keithappleton/featured (https://www.youtube.com/user/keithappleton/featured)
I second that, his videos are very good for newcomers to steam and occasionally even us  old dogs learn something.
He is also very entertaining.
Gerald.
Title: Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
Post by: CliffW on March 25, 2023, 02:39:16 am
And Keith Appleton's series on making a steam launch has me thinking about making an open launch from an old fiberglass hull I have...his instructions are so clear I think I can scratchbuild an interior.