Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: justboatonic on June 12, 2010, 02:20:44 pm
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I'd be grateful if anyone could offer some advice with this problem.
We have a Vauxhall Zafira, bought new in 2001 and serviced by the local Vauxhall dealer every year. Apart from minor service items, the only major part replaced was the cam belt and tensioner pulley 4 years ago by the same dealer.
Today, I took the car down to the same dealer for its annual service and cam belt and tensioner to be changed again (over 200 quid they wanted for this job alone!). About an hour later I get a call from service, they've broken an aluminium part {:-{ (oil filter bracket I think) but they have a nother in stock. Another 50 quid for this otherwise the car is immobilised so, I ok the job.
About 45 minutes later they phone again. This time they said that when they tried to take the cam belt tensioner pulley off the engine block, the bolt holding this on has stripped the whole thread out of the aluminium block! >:-o There's no way they can effect a repair and said part of the engine block now needs to go to an engineering company to be fixed. This sounds mega expensive >>:-(
I said I held them responsible as to damage two items when removing them from the engine shows negligence to me. Plus I didnt see how a bolt could strip the thread if it had been fitted correctly in the first place or, if they had taken suitable precautions. They are trying the old 'it does happen from time to time when you have different metals on an engine ie iron bolt, aluminium block or mount! Have they not heard of using copper grease or something similar!?
Obviously, Im not happy at all about this. The service plus cam belt change plus block repair may make the car no longer cost effective.
IMO they should pay a significant part of the repair as it happened on their watch.
Any advice how I can pressure them to fix this at minimal cost to me?
If any forum member has a 1999 to 2005 Zafira due for a cam belt and tensioner change (every 4 years or 40,000 miles whichever is sooner) be warned and very, very careful. If your Zaffie is coming up for its second cambelt and tensioner change, it may be better to move it on rather than risk stripped threads or a blown engine if the belt and tensioner are not changed.
TIA
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Talk to a solicitor. A logical take is as you have stated, the vehicle was in their care to do a specific job. Had the parts been broken when They took delivery of it, then Ok. it should be chargable but they should also be carrying insurance for accidental damage while vehicles are on Their premises.
Repair to the block means drilling the stripped hole to a specific size and re-tapping and inserting a "Heli-coil" or other proprietary thread reclaimation insert. Depending who does it and how it's carried out, £20 would be a fair charge although with todays shar-- er Craftsmen nearer £100, however, this should not be YOUR problem.
AA RAC Watchdog???
Regards Ian
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Talk to a solicitor. A logical take is as you have stated, the vehicle was in their care to do a specific job. Had the parts been broken when They took delivery of it, then Ok. it should be chargable but they should also be carrying insurance for accidental damage while vehicles are on Their premises.
Repair to the block means drilling the stripped hole to a specific size and re-tapping and inserting a "Heli-coil" or other proprietary thread reclaimation insert. Depending who does it and how it's carried out, £20 would be a fair charge although with todays shar-- er Craftsmen nearer £100, however, this should not be YOUR problem.
AA RAC Watchdog???
Regards Ian
Thanks for this. I would like to avoid a solicitor as this adds to the cost although it is something I'll have to reconsider.
Its interesting to hear the fix you suggest. I dont know if this is possible seeing as this is for a cam belt tensioner and the forces exterted. They are talking about an engineering company filling the hole with aluminium (presumably molten!?) then re tapping the recently plugged hole! At least that is what the desk monkey, sorry receptionist said. Must admit, I thought it extreme.
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As this is a main dealer you can get onto Griffon house in Luton and ask their advice. They have to be impartial as it is to do with and authorised dealer! They will then get onto the dealer and see what they say, if that fails Esther Ranzon can help out now!!
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Trading Standards can also bring pressure to bear.
An independent inspection by an organisation such as RAC, AA or even a close friend suitably qualified can also tip the balance in your favour for avoiding litigation.
Bob
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They are talking about an engineering company filling the hole with aluminium
JB, one word, plural, begins with B and ends in ******s. This is the standard repair and in certain instances is done to Alumininininium castings as a PREVENTITIVE measure.
Had over fifty years in ingineering so I have learned (And DESIGNED) one or two things in that time. When the insert is fitted, the bolt is screwing in and out of material that is stronger than the parent metal but the load is ultimately taken by a BIGGER thread in the aluminum block. If the idiots are talking welding, be prepared for virtually the cost of a new engine.
Regards Ian
PS. Many years ago I repaired in the same way a VW cylinder head that the "Main agent" told me was going to need a new one.
Replacement head £60
Helicoil Tap and had to buy a MINIMUM of 10 inserts @10p each £4.50
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Have you legal protection on your car insurance?
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JB, one word, plural, begins with B and ends in ******s. This is the standard repair and in certain instances is done to Alumininininium castings as a PREVENTITIVE measure.
Had over fifty years in ingineering so I have learned (And DESIGNED) one or two things in that time. When the insert is fitted, the bolt is screwing in and out of material that is stronger than the parent metal but the load is ultimately taken by a BIGGER thread in the aluminum block. If the idiots are talking welding, be prepared for virtually the cost of a new engine.
Regards Ian
PS. Many years ago I repaired in the same way a VW cylinder head that the "Main agent" told me was going to need a new one.
Replacement head £60
Helicoil Tap and had to buy a MINIMUM of 10 inserts @10p each £4.50
Circlip. This is even more interesting and thanks again for the info!
Im not sure they are suggesting welding but the guy who phoned me talked about filling the hole with aluminim and then re tapping. He certainly didnt mention any kind of insert and referenced the 'engineering company.' Maybe the engineering company have a better idea than him and think as you do (hopefully).
I take it that drilling out the hole to take the insert would be beyond the average main dealer (not that I think I want them doing this, rather have a bona fide engineer do it!)
Do I need to tell the dealer they need to get an engineer to fix a heli coil tap, is that the name of the process or part that is needed? I'd like to quote it chapter and verse to the dealer on monday.
If doing it the way you suggest is a hundred quid or so, that's a lot less than the near cost of a new block I was expecting.
TIA and thanks to everyone for the responses so far.
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Trouble with that one Rigger is that it would probably constitute a "Claim" if used and could compromise a "no claim" bonus.
Regards Ian.
Edit, The diameter of the stripped hole will now be very close to the hole diameter required to re tap with a fresh thread, so although I would not entrust the main dealer with it, "Someone" could do it with a hand drill, re-tap, screw in the insert providing you have clearence, with the engine still in the car.
If they're talking about an "Engineer" filling the hole with Alumin. the ONLY way that's going to work is welding.
A start to show them you aren't going to take this on the chin is to arrange a meeting with the MD of the dealership concerned, explain cooly and rationally that you are not best pleased with this scenario and intend to take this to the limits.
You therefore need to know the name of the Mechanic involved and need sight of his trade test certificates (That they proudly display in the service departments), if he should have been supervised, if so by whom and make the case that initially you are going to contact Vauxhall UK for their comments.
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Have you legal protection on your car insurance?
Hi Riggers. Not sure, I'dd have to check. Would this likely cover this situation? Thought that would only cover accidents between vehicles rather than imo, negligence.
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having worked in the car trade for 25+ years , this is standard main dealer practise to pass on any extra costs to the customer regardless of who's fault it is, most customers moan a little , then pay up. Over the course of the year this saves them many £1000's.
The main thing to do is not loose your temper with them & carry on insisting that you wont pay for the extra work. You have already agreed to pay some extra but I totally agree you shouldn't have to pay for the engineering work, because they fitted the part originally. Tell then you have some engineering knowledge & thought it was basic engineering to apply some sort of lubricant if you are fitting a steel bolt to an aluminium block. also would mentioning that you have spoken to a solicitor who thinks you would have a strong case if it was to have to go to court.
having sat the other side of the service desk, I know that the person you are talking to is only acting under orders from their boss regardless of what they actually think. So its vital to remain calm & polite whilst being firm or you will get no where.
next stop would be Vauxhall customer services in Luton, using the same firm but polite attitude. If they don't resolve it, then your are left with trading standards etc, but thats a long road & not one you really want to start down unless there are no other choices left.
good luck Glenn
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The drilling and tapping of the hole SHOULD be within the capability of a decent garage.
If not there are specialist companies that will fit a helicoil in situ at quite a reasonable price.
I had it done years ago on a V8 Rover Spark Plug thread.
Bob
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knobby,
Vauxhaul customer services do not have a good name for resolving problems unfortunately.
Bob
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Circlip it cost nothing to phone them and ask. I would also get on to customer services and lodge a complaint, I have been down this route with Vaukhall when I owned a '95 vectra and if you remember was the worst car to come out of Vauxhall. The complaint was dealt with by the area manager and was sorted but you have to keep acalm head about you.
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Totally agree with the C & C (REALLY hard when someone has just hurt your baby) Like I said, it ends up as a NO CLAIM not as a no BLAME action.
Go back to MY post JB, edited it before others replied.
Also agree with what Knobby has said about the front desk trying to put the blame back on you for buying/DRIVING a car. But you should now retract the offer to pay for the broken bracket.
Regards Ian
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This website is a very good place to start:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/DG_183043
One excerpt from it is particularly appropriate in your case:
"The law says that any goods supplied must be of satisfactory quality.
Any services you buy must be carried out with reasonable care and skill"
The garage do not appear to have exercised reasonable care to me!
-Rob
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Nice one Robert. Being able to quote the Piece and verse and DG number of the consumer law makes them really think :-))
Being able to read it out is good if doing it cooly, bad if done smugly, beware.
Regards Ian.
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Just my twopenceworth and amI'm agreement with the other chaps. One can't say for sure regarding the broken bracket, if it broke coming off the car and they say it wasn't due to their mishandling then the materials or design of the component must be cr*p. Technically, if this is a normal engine component it should be up to the rigours of engine life so one can only conclude it is Vauxhalls design fault and that would be impossible to apply at this age of car.
As for the stripped thread, it sounds from what has been described that the thread ripped out as the bolt was undone. This is not uncommon with aluminium castings and as has been rightly stated, a Helicoil insert is standard repair practice and in fact is a better option than the original idea of threaded alloy. Helicoil claim their fitment is a stronger and superior way of attaching to alloy castings and I agree as my motorccle engine has benefitted from these. This should not break your bank in any way shape or form and if the dealership in question had any guts they would offer the repair free as a goodwill gesture. If access can be readily gained with the appropriate tools this should be a really quick and inexpensive job for them to rectify. But remember, you are dealing with a main dealership here, in my opinion they generally don't give a monkeys about customers unless they are buying a new car. As a learned friend of mine once said (he was in the motor business) "The bigger the sign, the bigger the rogue"!
Keep a cool head, talk to the MD and try to get them to rectify this simple task F.O.C..
For future reference....... Never use main dealers, always find a local small garage which comes highly recommended as they probably don't just own that garage but want your business as well as your recommendation of good service.
In my experience, they always try that little bit harder to please.
I have never let anyone near my cars but recently found a local bloke with a small business, I don't get ripped off and he has never bull*hitted me once, whereas my only experience of main dealers has been a bad one... I worked for one many years ago so I know what I'm talking about.
Vauxhalls........Hmmmmmm <:(
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Check your house buildings and contents insurance, many of them include Legal Expenses insurance that covers breaches of contract such as this.
If you have such insurance cover make sure the MD is aware that you going to use it. "I have legal expenses insurance with Prudential, or whoever, and have already spoken to their claims dept".
Remember insurance companies have much bigger pockets and better lawyers than any main dealer, so the MD can't afford to risk the huge costs of legal action backed by an insurer.
Be nice, point out you will take no further action for car hire etc, if this simple repair is carried out quickly and free of charge.
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we too had a similar situation with a vauxhall main dealer who was replacing a cam belt on our astra some 6 yrs ago, they had replaced the cam belt and were apparently moving the car out of the service bay when.... bang something went wrong,
the dealer called us to say their was aproblem on the car, we went down to see what was the matter and it was a poorly sight !
the vauxhall garage claimed the work was standard - nothing special or difficult and they had carried the work in accordance with GM schedules,
the dealer said they would fix the car but at our expense..........
as you can imagine i wasl ivid, it had gone in for a routine service and cam belt change, - now it needed new valves !
i went crazy with vauxhall UK HQ and totally rejected the local dealers statement of events, in the end the dealer had to provide a courtesy car and fix our car..... but this was after 2 weeks of rangling with GM and getting a solicitor ( from citizens advice Bureau involved )
fight it all the way !- they are in the 'wrong'
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1> Ask Honest John - http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/
2> Never take a car out of warranty to a main dealer, or any other franchised dealer, for that matter.
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A drastic measure maybe, but one that will be seen would be your local paper, no one want's bad publicity, so give them a set time to effect a repair then get on to the local rag if they don't.
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hi justboatonic
That's bad luck ,i have the same car with 33k on the clock and have been looking at having the same work done before it gets to 40k ,with whats been said i will ring round some local garage's and let them do the job.
please keep us posted with what happens
good luck
spud
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Before you do anything, ring your local Citizens advice centre on Monday Morning. On many occasions they have given me the advice to win a battle for free. They are actually very good and will keep a record of your conversations and give you the same advisor to speak to through the whole process.
Lee
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Wendy has just told me she had the same sort of problem with a garage that she went to. She found that trading standards are a great help and offer sound advice. Stand firm and dont give in if the advice is in your favour.
Lee
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My suggestion-
1- Talk to the manager at the garage, not the workshop manager the garage manager- politely and succinctly describe your problem to him- and if you have recording equipment notify him you are recording the call, and make sure you do notify him!
If the problem is not resolved this way then;
2- go to Trading Standards agency, play them the recording and see what they say- if they say they are not doing anything illegal then as a last resort-
3- Go to your local newspaper (the one the garage advertises in) and notify them you have had a really bad experience there and you think as they advertise in the paper they should know what type of business is using them to promote themselves, then notify the garage that you have done so and see how quickly they get it done for nothing.
And a little tip- find an independant garage that has a good reputation and stick with them!!!
Greg
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I echo the sentiments about the main dealers completely. I used to have a company car and normally the servicing bills went straight to the office, I never even saw them. One time, the local Ford main agent left a copy in the car. When I checked it, they'd added 'minimum labour - 15 minutes' about ten times, for little items like tightening battery terminals, topping up washer fluid etc. I was not well pleased and went through every item on the bill - politely but firmly (and loudly) - in front of an increasingly disgruntled queue of service customers waiting to pick up their cars. (I bet a few of them checked their bills!) I got well over £100 off the bill. :-))
Last year my son bought his first car from a Renault main dealer - he worked for another division of the company so got a cracking deal. Unfortunately the cracking also applied to the cat converter, which was shot. Also faulty was the TDC sensor, and the car would regularly stall or refuse to start. At first they tried to fob him off saying that it was 'wear and tear' and not covered by his 'super cover used vehicle warranty'. After some more ploite but firm 'discussion' about Trading Standards, the dealer said that the work would be done FOC - he'd only had it a week. It went back to the main dealer twice, and each time it was collected, the exhaust would bang against the underside of the car. We enlisted the help of the local branch of the dealer - he knew the service manager - and the area manager. It was collected by the dealer, a courtesy car provided and the work done a third time. Within a week, it was banging again so I took it into my usual local independent exhaust centre, where I've been going for 30 years. They sorted it in ten minutes - part of the system was upside down! The main dealer must surely have known this - probably didn't even look properly.
I think that, regardless of make, the main dealers think they've 'got you' and use that to rip you off, or offer incompetent, shoddy work. I came up with an alternative solution. Married a girl whose best friend's husband owned a small garage and lives almost next door! They've 'dropped everything' to sort out my problems on more than one occasion and have had my custom for over 20 years now.
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I have yet to experience a main agent offering competence, courtesy, or value for money. The incidents, going back over almost 50 years, range from minor errors up to what was almost an attempt at manslaughter. They do seem to be staffed by natures mistakes - to call them blacksmiths demeans a very skilled profession, but they do seem to believe that pushing/pulling/hitting harder is the universal answer. Reading the job instructions / fault report also seems to be optional. Someone nearly called the reception staff desk monkeys, however, monkeys have been seen recently using thought and logic to solve problems, so, again..........
Oddly, I have found the storesmen to be both helpful and useful.
I have a competently run garage local to me who have a good customer outlook, don't rip me off and have on several occasions gone out of their way to be helpful, even to the extent of recommending another garage/workshop where they thought it appropriate.
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I actually do have a local main dealer which has given me perfectly good service over the last 8 years or so and doesn't charge OTT prices. I also have a local garage who I would not trust with my car.
I agree that you can get bad service from bigger organisations and are perhaps more likely to if they don't have to try so hard but it's not 100% the case. My dealer does seem keen to keep me as a continuing customer on the basis of taking the car in for servicing and maybe buying another one from them next time round. I'm not saying they are saints but I seem to be getting a reasonable deal from them and they have always done what they said they'd do when they said they'd do it.
Colin
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I wouldnt touch main dealers with a barge pole.
No offfence to any of you who work for them but in my experience most of the "Mechanics" at main dealers are just glorified fitters and have no idea what to do unless the computer tells them.
I have a slight expeience in basic mechanics (restored an rebuilt a few classic cars/bikes in my time) but would not call myself a mechanic. I went to a main dealer with a problem with my car... I knew what the problem was, the idle control valve. So went to the main dealer and said I wanted to fit them a new one. the refused saying that they could not be certain that was the fault and needed to run a full diagnostic on the car (80 quid) before fitting any new parts, even tho it was clearly obvious the part was broken (it was hanging off).
Suffice to say i bought the part and did it myself (took 20mins)
Many years ago I worked for a local motorbike shop as a workshop junior (tea boy with a spanner) I was given the job to change the exhaust on an old honda C90. I was warned no to use too much force on the bolts holding the exhaust to the head as they have a tendancy to shear off. Yes I used too much force and broke it. The customer was informed, My boss drilled out and fixed the damaged stud with a helicoil. I was docked an afternoons pay.
Any reputable garage would fix any damage caused by them at their own expense.
I also own a 2001 zafira albeit an opel not vauxhall and have done all of the service work myself. Copies of the vauxhall service DVDs are available online from the usual ebay sellers so I do all the work myself.
Work completed so far
2x front wheel bearings
2x rear shocks
Repair AC Condenser (small hole in it)
cambelt and tensioner change. I cannot for the life of me understand how they managed to cock it up, its not hard and can be done in under 2hours (Ignoring the opel service DVD instructions as they tell you to remove far mor stuff than is really neeeded)
Water pump changed with above
Full exhaust change with cat
brake caliper rebuild with new discs and pads
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I was warned no to use too much force on the bolts holding the exhaust to the head as they have a tendancy to shear off. Yes I used too much force and broke it. The customer was informed, My boss drilled out and fixed the damaged stud with a helicoil.
Ring a bell Justboatonic?? Difference is that according to your report the threads are stripped out of the block so the job is half done.
Regards Ian.
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1> Ask Honest John - http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/
2> Never take a car out of warranty to a main dealer, or any other franchised dealer, for that matter.
I did contact HJ. This is his reply "No. It's just the sort of thing that can happen when disassembling an
engine. No negligence involved."
I'd use another garage if I could but I just dont have any local recommendations.
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Ring a bell Justboatonic?? Difference is that according to your report the threads are stripped out of the block so the job is half done.
Regards Ian.
Yes it does. I strongly suspect this is what happened to the car.
The only problem I have is regarding time to get this sorted. The car is also due its annual MOT by the end of June and is on a cherished \ private plate. If the work \ who pays isnt sorted quickly I'll have to transfer the plate off the car (more expense) as I could lose it if the car hasnt got a current certificate when I do want to transfer!
BTW, the engine on a zaffie is transverse so depending on the location of the stripped thread on the front of the block, it may not be that easy to get to to drill out, even with a right angled drill.
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As regards load bearing by helicoils, my son stripped the threads in the sparking plug of his 2CV, also Ally head. Our local Garage did the job, as I watched , took all of 10 minutes and cost us a fiver in the Coffee Fund, helicoils work, extremly well,I used them in the studholes on the Bell Houseing of my Racing 105E, and that was pretty stressed! so my advice is to get in touch with the Main dealer, with an Estimate from 2 other Workshops for the Helicoil Repair, and then threaten them with Top Gear or such, usually works...
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One major Tractor manufacturer that used to have a plant here in Bradford used "Heli-coils" to reclaim stripped threads in the Cast Iron castings in the event of a whoopsie on the assembly lines. To save any future problems in service, they changed the production to include fitting them at the START of manufacture rather than wait for it to happen.
The "Spring" that you're screwing in is Stainless Steel so for repeated use like spark plugs and thread reclamation they are ideal.
It's just the sort of thing that can happen when disassembling an
engine. No negligence involved."
Not if you've half a brain cell and as a "Trained monk -- Mechanic" working on an alloy block, a 4 x 2 "Reminder" from the Chief Mechanic would be appropriate.
Regards Ian
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Well pleased to report this has now been sorted.
Dealer Service Manager phoned to say the cost would be 600 quid to put right. I told him, sorry but I aint paying that. So he then went on to explain 'these things happen' etc etc. I said sorry, Im not having that. Told him they had a duty of care where Im buying a service from them, the problem happened on their watch and, I wanted my vehicle to be put back to the condition it was in when it came in for the service and work.
He tried to say it could have happened at another garage to which I responded sorry, it wasnt in another garage, it had been serviced from new by them including the last cam belt and tensioner change. Anyway, if it had of been another garage, I'd still expect them to put my car back into the original condition. We then 'discussed' the finer points of consumer law, my intention to contact Vauxhall HO and a solicitor.
He said he'd have to discuss with the MD and I told him, Im happy to discuss with the MD too!
Got a call about an hour later saying due to my customer 'loyalty,' they'd do the work FOC but in no way accepted responsibility for the stripped thread. Fine.
Got a call on Friday to say the car was ready, cost over a grand!! %% WTF!! I went ballistic and said all this had been agreed I wouldnt be paying and the work was FOC. Turns out someone hadnt been kept in the loop.
They delivered the car to my home and even valetted it! That was nice of them.
Thanks to everyone for advice!
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Good, should think so too!!!! :-))
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Good news and it pays to hold fast :-)) :-))
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Well Done,
Does that mean a grand to spend on models?
Bob
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Glad to hear all is sorted. One does wonder where the excessive charges come from though, 1,000 pounds to repair a stripped bolt hole and fit a Cam Belt? And they say that modern engines are so much better than those from years ago. I do wonder though!! In 1968 I had a Mk 1 , 1500 Cortina GT. Iron block, pushrod engine, not Cross Flow, those did not appear until 1970. Fords version of the Weber 28/36 Twin Choke Carby. It was rated at 86 BHP.The car weighed a ton, did 0 to 60 in 12 seconds and used sensibly, 40 mpg Top speed 105 mph. My friends car, 2008 model has a 1400 cc all Alloy engine, DOHC, Fuel Injection, all singing and dancing. It also produces 94 BHP, has a top speed of 114, 0to60 in 11 seconds and about 43 mpg. Not a lot of progress really is there? Also the Ford engine could be repaired and kept in tune by almost anyone, without the use of a PC.
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Oh dear, that's one service manager that won't be going to Cancun for HIS Summer holidays. Well done JAB for sharpening your heels. REALLY glad to have helped.
Regards Ian.
EDIT, It might be pertinant to ask HOW the stripped thread was fixed, hate them to have glued the screw back in with a plastic metal type compound for them to get ANOTHER stab in another 20k's time.
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Glad to hear all is sorted. One does wonder where the excessive charges come from though, 1,000 pounds to repair a stripped bolt hole and fit a Cam Belt? And they say that modern engines are so much better than those from years ago. I do wonder though!! In 1968 I had a Mk 1 , 1500 Cortina GT. Iron block, pushrod engine, not Cross Flow, those did not appear until 1970. Fords version of the Weber 28/36 Twin Choke Carby. It was rated at 86 BHP.The car weighed a ton, did 0 to 60 in 12 seconds and used sensibly, 40 mpg Top speed 105 mph. My friends car, 2008 model has a 1400 cc all Alloy engine, DOHC, Fuel Injection, all singing and dancing. It also produces 94 BHP, has a top speed of 114, 0to60 in 11 seconds and about 43 mpg. Not a lot of progress really is there? Also the Ford engine could be repaired and kept in tune by almost anyone, without the use of a PC.
Ah the old for Pre X Flow
Ive just done a full top end rebuild on a 1200 Anglia, nice easy job, no special dealer tools just a few stubborn bolts
I never really looked at it the way you did but after a quick bit of the old google its actually quite common not much for progress Id say
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I think some young 'mechanic' or trainee used an air wrench incorrectly in the strip down or build up. An expensive boo boo, thankfully not at jbt's expense. :o Well done that man! :-))
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Air wrencehes are the devils own work, so easy to shear bolts and strip threads with them. I only use mine as a last resort or to remove wheel bolts, hub bolts etc and only on the lowest setting first and slowly working up.
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Air wrencehes are the devils own work, so easy to shear bolts and strip threads with them.
Even spanners in some
hands.
A mate came into the office one morning clutching the alloy intake manifold from his Stag. Pointing to the hole that the airfiter housing clamping stud had originally been screwed into, he came out with one of his classics "Can you do anything with this hole, it's slightly stripped?"
Yea, all the way down.
Regards Ian.
TGFHI