Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: furball on October 22, 2010, 01:07:19 pm

Title: Oops...
Post by: furball on October 22, 2010, 01:07:19 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365)

Lance
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Arrow5 on October 22, 2010, 01:28:24 pm
 Red Oktober not involved. :-X   Signal reads "it wisnae me" msg ends.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Number 6 on October 22, 2010, 01:57:09 pm
That's got to be seriously embarassing for those responsible. :embarrassed: Hope the damage isn't stopped out af his/her wages, take a while to pay that back!  %) At least nobody hurt, that's the main thing, Dave.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Arrow5 on October 22, 2010, 02:41:26 pm
I think someone`s pride will be hurt, then the kicking he/she will get from their Lords of the Admiralty {-)
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Bryan Young on October 22, 2010, 02:48:52 pm
Well, it's one way to reduce the RN manpower level. I don't think that the RN runs a "3 strike and you're out" system. Perhaps the CO will be offered a Minesweeper, but I doubt he'll be charge of a Nuke again. BY.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Martin (Admin) on October 22, 2010, 02:52:06 pm

They said on the radio that the drive Reactor had been shut down and it was running on the auxiliary diesels... do the diesels have enough  'grunt'  to drive the propeller?

PS. They are always warning motorist not to fully trust those Sat Nav's!
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on October 22, 2010, 02:52:55 pm
Unless it was an unforeseen equipment failure, its usually the case of the C.O. Navigating officer and Officer of the watch being
dismissed the ship which usually means no further advancement in the service and no more commands for the Captain.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on October 22, 2010, 02:55:14 pm
The big problem with the reactor is the cooling water - big tides up there and if she is left high and dry as the tide drops
they could have problems.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Shipmate60 on October 22, 2010, 03:13:21 pm
pugwash,
The larger Faslane tugs have large pumps and connections just for this contingency.
The reactor should be on "stand by" therefore reducing severely the cooling water required to a self sustainable level plus a safety margin.

Bob
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 22, 2010, 03:21:16 pm
The CG Tug (which is one of 4 to be mothballed ) is on hand but they were training to put forces ashore probably at Ashaig air strip which seems to be a favourite of of the RN and the RM
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 22, 2010, 04:26:09 pm
The big problem with the reactor is the cooling water - big tides up there and if she is left high and dry as the tide drops
they could have problems.
Geoff
Aye Geoff big tides this weekend just as well this happened today and not Monday as the height begins to drop then , she could of been there for a while dont suppose you are the same Geoff from Amble that is on trawlerphotos
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on October 22, 2010, 04:34:38 pm
Aye Geoff big tides this weekend just as well this happened today and not Monday as the height begins to drop then , she could of been there for a while dont suppose you are the same Geoff from Amble that is on trawlerphotos
Not to diverse to far from the topic in hand,...where,s ma black pud??? ya greedy b****r {-) {-)...i,ve got a full length one coming next week,...who.knows i might be able to send you some, {-)


Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on October 22, 2010, 04:48:49 pm
Sorry wbeedie not me;
the other Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: DavieTait on October 22, 2010, 06:17:58 pm
Just on the news that they've managed to get her off the beach , guess the skipper/officer of the watch and the nav officer will be driving desks from now on
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: justboatonic on October 22, 2010, 06:30:30 pm
Shades of Nottingham on Lord Howe Island (or rather 'rock'!)

Time for the old swords to be pointing at the string of command methinks.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Circlip on October 23, 2010, 12:00:39 pm
When Traffie moved Skye they obviously didn't update the charts.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 23, 2010, 05:19:32 pm
Its not as if you could miss it with all the wee hills at the south end where the hit , still shouldnt have been inside the Navigation bouys though
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Circlip on October 24, 2010, 01:30:27 pm
Quote
Its not as if you could miss it

  They didn't.   :embarrassed:

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Lord Bungle on October 24, 2010, 08:58:50 pm
They say the charts were old and out of date, Navy cutbacks then several Billion on a sub and save a few quid on the charts
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Arrow5 on October 24, 2010, 09:20:30 pm
A few quid for a fishfinder from Maplins and save a million in repairs, court martial, pension etc etc. >>:-(
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Bryan Young on October 24, 2010, 10:06:54 pm
Reference "charts".....modern RN and RFA ships do not use paper charts as us of another generation did.
In those days the Navigators life was almost totally consumed by the chore of doing the myriad of "chart corrections" by hand and with a "mapping pen".
Then the great revolution came, and "corrections" came printed on little squares of tracing paper. Still had to use a tiny pen, although locating where the correction was to be made was much easier.
Considering that a "Full World Wide Folio" of charts can run into well over 5,000 charts...start to see a problem? An instance....a small change to a chart off the Tyne. The correction will have to be done on the main North Sea Chart, then also on the chart showing just the NE Coast, then again on the chart showing the "approaches" to the Tyne. In some cases this single correction would have to be done on perhaps 8 different charts.
    Look....this is too large a subject to cover in a simple answer, I could write an essay on this subject ( which could be a bit of an eye-opener" to some).
But nowadays the charts are "electronic", and are corrected by simply downloading the new issues.
I refuse to believe that such a system is not used on our latest submarines. "Updates" are automatic. No excuse, no drama.
.......If you want such an essay from me, just plead a little!  BY.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Arrow5 on October 24, 2010, 10:32:08 pm
Surely they have an "altimetre" electronic device on at all times when in shallow(er) water, a depth-finder/fish-finder ?  They can put a 600mph Tomahawk to with a metre or two over a thousand miles away yet they cant see a shallow bit under the ship ?  Your best guess, in laymans terms ?
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on October 24, 2010, 10:59:17 pm
all warships have an echo-sounder - in fact probably most ships do I even had one on my yacht, but someone has to be
either watching it or listening for a shallow depth alarm for them to be any use

Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 24, 2010, 11:13:15 pm
All these corrections to be made on charts should be irrelevent , its a run up to the shore base for the Rassay range , the navy and Qinetic should have all the latest data , the fact is he is outside the fairway and on the wrong side of the cans while being above water , its poor watch keeping,and extremely poor use of electronic aids that will be the norm on all surface vessels , you might understand it if he was running submerged but the channel  is well marked but can be hazardous with the tide than runs from the narrows at Kylerhea all the way upto the bridge and with the full moon the tides would have been racing so alterations should have been made, have made the same run on numerous occasions and its easy enough ,, the Astute had moored in the area on more than one occasion so should have known where to go
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on October 25, 2010, 12:00:56 am
According to the Sunday Times they were carrying out a boat transfer dropping ashore tech staff just to the west of the buoyed channel
when she was allowed to drift astern during the transfer then (THEY SAY) the helmsman lost control and she continued astern on to a
sand and shingle bank.  It goes on to say they have been having problems adjusting to the new type of steering/control compared
to other subs. Thats even more reason to stay in deeper water.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 25, 2010, 12:16:41 am
if they didnt have enough way gongsteering would be unresponsive especially in that tidal area and I suppose they could have had problems Geoff but as you said shouldve stayed in deeper water , and to think they took the anti radiation tablets from the locals a few years before as well
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Netleyned on October 25, 2010, 06:23:45 am
An echo sounder only gives depth below it
They are normally fitted towards the fore ends to give warning of a shelving bottom
not much use if the stern swings on to a shingle bank.
Still no excuse though

Ned
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 25, 2010, 05:08:26 pm
I just wonder if the grounding could be down to poor low speed control.

Nuclear subs are designed to 'fly' through the water using their propellors/propulsors and control surfaces. On the surface they only have their prop and rudder to control them. In the Astute class the rudder is ahead of the propulsor and an ex crew member of Courageous told me at Plymouth last year that conventional props are actually more efficient but propulsors are fitted for maximum stealth and quietness. Unless the vessel has significant headway the rudder is effectively useless. It was reported that the vessel was stopped to transfer personnel ashore at the time in a comparitively narrow channel. In that situation, if the boat had been caught by the tide it may have been impossible to do very much about it.

This does rather beg the question of whether it was a very good place to stop though.

My old one to one scale boat had an outboard mounted alongside the rudder and in some situations you had very little control at all unless you had a warping line ashore. You can feel very helpless backing and filling on the motor in a crowded marina as the tide carries you inexorably towards another moored boat and you can't get enough steerage to turn tightly enough.

Colin
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: DavieTait on October 25, 2010, 05:20:04 pm
She will have an emergency "get you home" deployable azimuthing thruster in the stern they could have used if they had had the time and depth of water , the only draw back to using it is that it drops down from the aft ballast tank and could have caused a hell of a lot more damage to the sub if she had grounded with it deployed. I know the S and T class had these thrusters so it would be a fairly safe bet that the Astute has it as well. Photo's of that section of the stern are as rare as hens teeth ( well the RN don't want anyone seeing the full details of the propulsor unit). The S and T boats also have an anchor that drops from the bottom of the forrard ballast tank which she should have so again yet another option that should have been used if they had been watching what they were doing.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: gingyer on October 25, 2010, 05:31:56 pm
Just wondering if any of you noted the timings they were giving out?
When the Admiralty spokesperson and the local people were being interveiwed they all said that the subs only
hope was that it could be refloated when the tide starts coming back in and it would not be deep enough water until 7pm with hightide after that

the boat was refloated at just after 6pm....
Possibly the tidal charts are out? hence why it was caught in a low tide it was expected to be clear of for another 1hr


Just a thought  :D :D
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Lord Bungle on October 25, 2010, 06:51:51 pm
Just wondering if any of you noted the timings they were giving out?
When the Admiralty spokesperson and the local people were being interveiwed they all said that the subs only
hope was that it could be refloated when the tide starts coming back in and it would not be deep enough water until 7pm with hightide after that

the boat was refloated at just after 6pm....
Possibly the tidal charts are out? hence why it was caught in a low tide it was expected to be clear of for another 1hr


Just a thought  :D :D

someone forgot to set the clocks properly then
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on October 25, 2010, 11:03:40 pm
No the top of the tide was Seven o clock but once enough water  to float her was an hour earlier and also higher at night than the morning tide so not really a prob with timings for refloating her
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 09:21:57 am
On the news this morning,it was stated that the rescue Tug sent to help the Astute,ripped off one of its fins??? when it collided with the sub,.....who,s in the "subfin soup" now, {-)

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Circlip on November 04, 2010, 12:09:39 pm
Our news south of the border said a "Damaged plane" Probably be reported in the Scottish edition of the Sun when one of the crews gob gets away with itself.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: The long Build on November 04, 2010, 01:25:17 pm
Should not have got stuck then should they !!  %%
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 02:54:50 pm
Our news south of the border said a "Damaged plane" Probably be reported in the Scottish edition of the Sun when one of the crews gob gets away with itself.

  Regards  Ian.
.."Planes"...are they no them things that fly in the sky,...like an elephants eye,that was looking at me, {-)

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: sailorboy61 on November 04, 2010, 03:16:49 pm
quote (BBC) 'Aside from attack capabilities, it is able to sit in waters off the coast undetected, delivering the UK's special forces where needed or even listening to mobile phone conversations'.

More like making mobile calls and sending the special out to the chippy for fish supper. Its almost understandable when an old merchantman does this from time to time...... but lets remember these guys are supposed to be the dogs b******s!

There are no excuses....they shouldn't have been there!!!

Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 03:44:26 pm
You might be right on the Fish supper,as there,s a crackin Fish & chip shop in Kyle of lochalsh,

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on November 04, 2010, 04:04:03 pm
Yes I must second that Wullie - as good as any fish and chips shop I have been to recently.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on November 04, 2010, 06:05:48 pm
You not breen for a while the last couple of times I was there Wullie and Geoff it wasnt as good now Mallaig has a cracker and so does Broadford
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on November 04, 2010, 06:24:00 pm
We didnt get up this year because of my hip operation we usually stay in Lower Breaknish and have tried  (is it Creelers)
then its on to the UIg ferry for South Uist for my weeks brown trout fishing whilst SWMBO goes bird-watching and doing
geology type things. Really missed it this year.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 06:51:14 pm
The last time i was up that way was 2005,..how time flies,..we stayed at Wullie,s Bunk house,"no relation," he,s just ower the bridge at Dornie, heading Kyle then off to the right, heading to Camusluine,..11 mile in,fantastic place was £7.50 a head in 2005,or you could rent a self contained cottage with all mod cons + TV+Sat,..for £40 for 2  for 3 days, and you got £10 leccy thrown in,and 6 fresh eggs,+ free mountain bikes and route map for the best tracks,I,ve no doubt he,s still there,his names ,Wullie Nicholson,..a real Gent,..i.ve got his Tel number somewhere,so if your ever needing somewhere to stay,thats where to go,..he,also got a barn full of kit, for the kids,

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: wbeedie on November 04, 2010, 06:53:31 pm
Aye Geoff it used to be called Creelers , cant remember  what its new name is now ,,, you would have seen the sub from lower Breakish near enough ,, should of told the docs to postpone the hip op , some good rivers on this island as well for fishing Varrigil out side Portree on the South side ,Kinloch in Dunvegan , Skeabost and a few wee lochs up in the hills for Brownies, give me a shout when up this way next and I will take you to a few spots

 AYe Wullie , I know the place you are on about  some good hills down Kintail way and a good wee pub,
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Shipmate60 on November 04, 2010, 08:20:30 pm
The Chippie in Kyle is good but so are the seagulls, don't expect to eat them on the seats opposite.
They are huge and very aggressive.
No not the locals, they are great.
Had to have a lift back from "Tingle Creek" more than once!!!

Bob
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 08:53:16 pm
"but so are the seagulls, don't expect to eat them on the seats opposite."So thats what you southerners get up to when you come up to Gods country,..well If that,s your delicacy,keep coming,just be sure to take out the Greater Black Backs,...mind you they taste a bit fishy,...so I,ve been told,an there,s not much meat on them, {-) {-)

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: pugwash on November 04, 2010, 10:41:38 pm
Wbeedie I might just take you up on that if I can fit it in - we have never had more than a night on Skye just use it
to stay whilst waiting for the ferry but I know some of the fishing is great and would like to stay a bit longer sometime.
Geoff
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Wasyl on November 04, 2010, 11:27:51 pm
Can I come???.. O0 I,m a good cook,.as long as you like Indian curries,..there,s only 2 of us ...oh and a cross beardie/border,that will lick you to death,

Wullie
Title: Re: Oops...
Post by: Shipmate60 on November 04, 2010, 11:32:42 pm
Wullie,
I used to spend 3 months at a time running out of BUTEC.
So I know the pubs well.

Bob