Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Arrow5 on January 27, 2011, 10:32:26 pm
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NIMROD the mighty hunter ... betrayed by fools >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o <:( I am just speechless over this absolute madness.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12294766
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12294937
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12281640
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12297139
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does anyone with parliamentary knowledge know how the normal man in the street can instigate a motion of no confidence in these idiots..........i would just love to lend my name to such a motion.
they are unbelievable when they can come out with a statement this morning about the riots in Egypt and say "we think the Egyptian governing regime should listen to what the protestes are saying.
since when, in the past 4 months has this government listened to anything that students or anyone has said in this country.......
they are contemptable, at least, and the way they are leaving this country defenceless.....treasonable at worst.
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I could not believe what I saw on the news about these Nimrods especially as they are built and finished ready for the sky it's absolute madness there is going to be all hell break loose when one of the old Nimrods falls out of the sky due to age. >>:-( I'm wandering why these were not offered for sale to other countries would it have been the technology in them that they did not want others to see.
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There are no other Nimrods left , all the Mk2's were retired last year due to safety concerns ( well loosing the one over Afghanistan with 14 crew meant they couldn't trust the unmodernised ones not to have trouble ).
I think we need to look at facts with this debacle , Labour postponed and postponed and postponed the upgrading program so many times that its over 10 years late , instead of getting 21 aircraft we were down to 9 and the prices were well over double what it would have cost if the program had been done on time. Labour did this time and time again , putting back the carriers meaning they will cost £1.8bn more to build and equip than they should have , putting back the Type 45 Destroyer program meaning the cost of each ship doubled and we're only getting 6 instead of the 12 we really need , the putting back of the Astute class SSN program meaning they're 6 years later than originally planned and again almost double the cost than if they had been ordered when they were supposed to start.
The Nimrods we were due to take this year had a sensor package that was 10 years old , computers that were years and years out of date and keeping these viable would have cost a lot more in the future than made much sense. I think they should have looked at the Mk2's , done a mid-life safety upgrade to extend airframe life for another 8 years to keep the fleet safe and available and looked at a new platform which would have been a safer bet for the future.
We have lost a world leading ASW asset which will be very very difficult to replace , we can only hope that no countries in Africa or South America go rogue and put an SSK or 2 into the Atlantic to cause trouble , if they do we will be very hard pressed to deal with them without the capabilities the Nimrods had.
I think this is a very short sighted way to deal with defence of the realm , Labour left a huge black hole in the Defence budget which will take decades to clear off and I hope we do not need to go to war far from home ( Falklands anyone ) for 10 to 20 years as of now with the scrapping of Ark Royal and the Harrier fleet we are dangerously exposed and dangerously ill equipped
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The RAF have 6 of the larger, more modern Boeing E3 AWAC aircraft. It may have been wiser to adapt/modify these larger aircraft and extend their role to include maritime detection. I do realise that these are based on the elderly 707, although it's newer than the ancient Comet (our first commercial jet airliner :o ).
It's understandable that the UK should want to have a specialised maritime surveillance plane.
BA Systems and many other contractors have sucked a huge amount of money, over the years to keep this hunter forever mighty. The government have been incrementally led into literally rebuilding a flawed replica based on a design well past it's sell-by-date. Looking back over this saga it was bound to end in tears.
Ministers are guided by 'experts' and many other professionals. The MOD is the hub for all air land and sea procurement and a govt minister fronts their budget - God help them. The events of the last 20 years could support a general conclusion that the MOD is quite dysfunctional and incompetent in dealing with contractors and that the civil servants and military personnel involved are equally, gullible and naive. {:-{
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Another defense drain plugged. Wonder how much longer it's going to take the MOD to realise that there isn't a money tree? The public have been paying far too much for too long for their whims and fancies.
Regards Ian.
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Ian I agree with you about the MOD wasting money but You can hardly call it a whim and a fancy to want a good, possibly the best ASW and surveillance
capability - lets give the fleet some protection since they have removed the Carriers for the moment. Don't forget as well as their other
capability they have a good anti-ship potential with the Harpoon missiles they can carry.
Geoff
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Nimrod suffered from the virus that every other bit of ground breaking British technology has Geoff. Get the flaming thing on the road instead of "Hang on, we'll just add this" and "what if".
With a new ball pein hammer and a good rivetting block, we may just be in time to save it's predecessor. Does it still have a giant spark plug sticking out of the roof?? "20,000 rivets flying in close formation"
Regards Ian
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If I dare to chip in my tupennyworth on this emotive topic.
I used to work as a consultant on government projects.
I think Maggie was a main driver to outsourcing to consultants.
One reason I was uncomfortable doing this work. Even consultant engineers are under pressure to not find a solution, but to seek the best possible solution for the job. This means that doing/completing the job is secondary to extending the contract to find perfection.
All the government contracts I was involved with ended up costing double the original cost. Why?
Because if the job needed a million quid (with all contractors tenders coming within 10% either way), a pencil pusher would go through the fine detail and whittle away needed functionality. End result would be a contract for half a million. But as the contract progressed the needed functionality had to be re-inserted. And so the job ended up costing according to the original bid. But twice the amount the contract was let for.
Different topic now.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is very sad that the Nimrod has gone, same for the new Navy ships. But can the taxpayers still afford them?
Why should the UK spend billions re-inventing the wheel. If the US has a functioning AWACS that is cheaper to buy, than develop out own, then buy it.
As a kid I remember that gov't would only buy British. British cop cars and ambulance. British military vehicles including trucks. British cars for government officers, PM, etc. Those days have long gone.
We have European made truck in the army. The Eurofighter, and helicopter. Police drive BMWs (who won the war?).
Too much money has been wasted on jingoism. The UK economy is in a poor state of health. Gestures of national pride and nationalism are for when a country is on the up, not on its uppers.
Sorry if this offends, but tax and government spending is an issue if there are fewer people able to pay higher taxes.
One of the reasons we British had to give up the empire is that we could not longer afford to run it. Britain can perhaps no longer afford to be the world's policeman, plodding the beat with our US buddies. We have been punching above our weight for too long and our body (the economy and the taxpayer) can no longer afford it.
I could go on about the likelihood of being invaded by a European neighbour. Unlikely, the threats to our security today are different, and perhaps a military response is not the solution. We live in a very different world order. The biggest threats to our economy are not related to owning overseas territories that need to be defended. They are related to global trade.
My 2 cents.
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Just a comment on the usefulness of the Nimrod and the big gap they cause in the UK's capabilities. yesterday there was a Tornado GR4 that went into the sea just off the coast of Scotland. thankfully the pilot and the nav, managed to bang out in time. but there where SAR helicopters and Boats that had to track down their PLB. the first thing that would have happened would be to get a nimrod airbourne and locate the crew. luckily it was quite close to Scotland. now had this happened further out to sea how long would it take to use a SAR heli, or scramble a US AWACS to locate the crew.
by scrapping the Nimrod not only have we caused a massive gap that would protect our Trident Subs, but what about missing at sea. who will we ask to do that, the US? what if they have a higher priority task to do with their Air Force. the scrappage of the Nimrod, the Harrier and the Carrier have in my mind been pushed far too quickly and to abruptly without actually consulting and thinking of the knock on effects its going to have on the rest of the fleet.
the problem is that we have in-experienced people making all the decisions.
example. DR Liam Fox?!?!?! {:-{ a Former Doctor. how has he got the knowledge and experience of the Armed Forces to Be Defence secretary. would you not want someone who knows what they are talking about. not jsut a paperpusher and number cruncher. anybody can look at figures and go. well that costs too much lets get rid of that, oh and thats ok so we will keep that!!!
But either way whats happened will affect everyone even future generations.
just for info. why are we in Afghanistan. has it got anything to do with the estimated 3 Trillion Dollars worth of Minerals. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <*<
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carefull, TT.....
don't these government secrets you are letting us all in on come under the Official Secrets Act, lol......hate to see you banged up for a while........
oh well, at least we could look forward to a bone model ship or two by the time you get out, {-) {-) {-) {-)
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They are talking about selling all the trees now... Every Thing Must Go all part of the UK fire sale that started with our utilites... The real problems will start when theres nothing left to cancel or flog off....Sadly that point draws ever closer
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It is so easy to knock the MoD, but let me ask the knockers a few questions?
How exactly do you set the specification for something that doesn't exist yet, is beyond the present technology, update it as required and provide servicing and spares for the next 25 yrs.
All this on something that isn't possible to make yet.
Yes we can go the US route so we lose our own capability and have to rely on other countries to supply.
Bob
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Just about all the previous posts on this topic have focussed on the political aspects of this nations defence capability. Fair enough. But there is another and rather major adjunct to all this.
Time and time again we exhorted by whichever political party is in government to "export or die". All well and good if you actually have something to "export". With the exception of a few (admittedly "world class") niche manufacturers, what, exactly, can the UK now build/make that the rest of the world can't either do for itself or buy cheaper elsewhere?
It really is a truism that a successful and prospering nation is built on a solid industrial base and not something as ephemeral as the so-called "financial" or "service" so-called industries.
Any country needs self sustainability...something our well suited but ignorant politicians seem to have either ignored or never grasped in the first place. BY.
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hello tiger tiger i agree with every thing you wrote but remember we the BRITISH were on our uppers in 1939 we got out of that ok and if the people of the uk have the SPRIT of that time we will get off our uppers once again as for the nimrod when i was at RAF WYTON WE HAD THE OLD NIMROD CANNOT REMEMBER THE PROPER NAME and as for the old shack spent many hours flying in them so come you BRITISH lets get on with the job of getting this country great again and shoot all strikers (Oh dear should not have said that ) where is the delete button on strike iwill try and do my bit but at 80 slowing down a bit
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hello tiger tiger i agree with every thing you wrote but remember we the BRITISH were on our uppers in 1939 we got out of that ok and if the people of the uk have the SPRIT of that time we will get off our uppers once again as for the nimrod when i was at RAF WYTON WE HAD THE OLD NIMROD CANNOT REMEMBER THE PROPER NAME and as for the old shack spent many hours flying in them so come you BRITISH lets get on with the job of getting this country great again and shoot all strikers (Oh dear should not have said that ) where is the delete button on strike iwill try and do my bit but at 80 slowing down a bit
? not a very coherent argument, Regiment. BY.
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i was not arguing just speaking my mind but tiger tiger is still right we ore on our uppers like it or not
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I now tend to take the general view that our whole society has slid into a 'blame game' culture. We desperately need 'fixit'.
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If I dare to chip in my tupennyworth on this emotive topic.
I used to work as a consultant on government projects.
I think Maggie was a main driver to outsourcing to consultants.
One reason I was uncomfortable doing this work. Even consultant engineers are under pressure to not find a solution, but to seek the best possible solution for the job. This means that doing/completing the job is secondary to extending the contract to find perfection.
All the government contracts I was involved with ended up costing double the original cost. Why?
Because if the job needed a million quid (with all contractors tenders coming within 10% either way), a pencil pusher would go through the fine detail and whittle away needed functionality. End result would be a contract for half a million. But as the contract progressed the needed functionality had to be re-inserted. And so the job ended up costing according to the original bid. But twice the amount the contract was let for.
Different topic now.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is very sad that the Nimrod has gone, same for the new Navy ships. But can the taxpayers still afford them?
Why should the UK spend billions re-inventing the wheel. If the US has a functioning AWACS that is cheaper to buy, than develop out own, then buy it.
As a kid I remember that gov't would only buy British. British cop cars and ambulance. British military vehicles including trucks. British cars for government officers, PM, etc. Those days have long gone.
We have European made truck in the army. The Eurofighter, and helicopter. Police drive BMWs (who won the war?).
Too much money has been wasted on jingoism. The UK economy is in a poor state of health. Gestures of national pride and nationalism are for when a country is on the up, not on its uppers.
Sorry if this offends, but tax and government spending is an issue if there are fewer people able to pay higher taxes.
One of the reasons we British had to give up the empire is that we could not longer afford to run it. Britain can perhaps no longer afford to be the world's policeman, plodding the beat with our US buddies. We have been punching above our weight for too long and our body (the economy and the taxpayer) can no longer afford it.
I could go on about the likelihood of being invaded by a European neighbour. Unlikely, the threats to our security today are different, and perhaps a military response is not the solution. We live in a very different world order. The biggest threats to our economy are not related to owning overseas territories that need to be defended. They are related to global trade.
My 2 cents.
Just as a matter of interest. It is against German Federal Law for Police, Armed services etc to use anything other than German built vehicles. There was a panic a few years ago as the Opels used by some police were found to be built in Belgium , however they managed to cobble them together with enough German bits to qualify the rule.
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According to an Advert for Boeing,shown on CNN, they invented the Harrier, Quote" We even invented an aircraft that can fly backwards!!!" Illustrated with a short clip of a US Marine Harrier doing just that trick. Trouble is, lots of people believe that too.
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My turn for a rant I think... :} Manufacturing is too slow a way to make money, for the likes of the get rich quick mentality of the people that run our county..Money is god.
Nimrod, as already said, will be replaced by something American, which will sit in a hanger until we can get to work with Rolls Royce engines and some out dated UK made Radar system. Just like the helicopters we bought
When they sell our woodlands off it will be for the short term profit of a few... IMO it's nothing to do with saving the county... its just like the Olympic's another opportunity to make some money for consultants and the like, which may or many not, be run by politicians,ex politicians or their cronies..
Sadly this country has become one of the most corrupt countries on the planet...and nobody seems to care... :(( Lets face it the Very Rich have done very nicely out of the great Banking Crisis Swindle ok2
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and shoot all strikers
I thought that's the sort of attiude we were fighting against in 1939.. round up people you don't like and put them in "work" camps, then the final solution????
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Lets not go down that avenue here please - Admin :police:
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A G K Chesterton essay (http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/gkc13018.htm) refers...
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A G K Chesterton essay (http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/gkc13018.htm) refers...
How true.... He knows The price of everything but the value of nothing ;)
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A report in today's Sunday Times states that the 'new' Nimrods had a catalogue of outstanding faults requiring attention including the inability to open the bomb doors...
The whole project was misconceived and should have been knocked on the head years ago and a more viable alternative sought.
The scrapping has touched a nerve in the public consciousness because it is a graphic example of where you can actually see your hard earned taxes being literally thrown away.
Colin
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It makes me feel better to know that we in Australia are not the only ones who have idiots in charge. Australia's prime minister gave away millions to other countries and they have nothing left for the Australians in the Queensland floods effected Australians get $1000 and children get $400 compared to the millions of dollars given to other countries. N.S.W. and Victorians get nothing for flood damage, nor do the Western Australians who were burnt out in the last month in the massive fires there. Then look at the fires in Victoria people still living in substandard dwellings with all the problems of just coping . Most Australians are now slugged with a levy to pay the bills.
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IMHO Overseas Aid is one of the best ways for politicians to funnel money into their own bank accounts this often takes the form of a kickback...Thats probably why they are so keen on it
After all if anybody audits it later you can aways say it was misappropriated by the recipients...Just like a big charity .OPPS I shouldn't have said that... :}
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Don't know why exactly, but I suspect that readers of the Sunday Times are a bit thin on the ground as far as this forum is concerned. The Bishop only touched on the problems befalling this magical aircraft.
The "Inspecorate" of this aircraft have been a bit less than complimentary .
Apart from doors (the sort that can open to drop either bombs or life-saving equipment) that can't open in flight, we have wings that are subject to metal fatigue even before the aircraft (?) ever takes to the skies. The engines appear not to fit into their designated holes without leaving an unacceptable gap that can cause some sort of disaster. The Hot Air pipe running alongside a fuel line has still not been re-routed or "lagged". The list of "not acceptable" design faults really does go on.
Although we, as members of the public, would obviously like to see a British ASW aircraft in the sky.....then I'm afraid it just isn't going to happen. BAE(S) have signally failed to produce what they contracted for.
Who pays for all this? No guesses required. BY.
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Hi Bryan I read this article this morning and my first thought was why the H... werent these faults corrected during the build and
secondly wasn't it strange that the Sunday Times should be shown this report just when the minister is trying to justify his scrapping of the aircraft.
Takes the heat off him doesn't it.
Geoff
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You missed the bit about the nose wheel not coming down Bryan! The conservative(!) estimate to fix all these things is £1bn so allow for £2bn at least. The whole project is a scandal of the first order and this is just one of many.
Digressing slightly, I saw a criticism of the new carriers the other day that they are 'too big'. This is rubbish. Just a cursory look at recent history will demonstrate that new warships are ALWAYS too small. This is due to the specification being trimmed so much to save money that the vessel is barely (if at all) able to meet its initial design requirements. There is no margin for updating during its service life so it becomes obsolescent long before its time thus incurring extra costs when it has to be replaced early. Good examples are the first two batches of the Type 42 destroyer and the Invincible class carriers. The Invincible, Illustrious and Ark Royal have given good service but if you have been in their hangars you will know just how small they are which is why the last remaining ship, Illustrious, is to be scrapped early in favour of HMS Ocean of inferior construction and woeful speed but which has more space onboard.
This shortcoming does seem to have been remedied with the Daring class destroyers which have space for futureproofing but from what I hear they don't even carry the current armament and systems for which they have been fitted and are significantly toothless despite their impressive appearance.
Colin
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The only way for most British defense projects of the last 20 years, it seems, to retain their reputations is to get canceled early.
The MOD has been woefully poor in overseeing and commissioning the projects... it's almost if most them are designed to fail.... leaving the money spent to "vanish" into "the system."
I don't know how few ships our navy consists of last count, but somebody said that there was 60 something admirals... Sound like classic downsizing to me,loads of chiefs but very few indians :((
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A G K Chesterton essay (http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/gkc13018.htm) refers...
Mr Dodgy, what an absolutely brilliant (and thoroughly appropriate) piece. I doff my hat to you, sire.
I can't help wondering, if the sagacious, yet humble, Mr Chesterton should suddenly find himself alive in this day and age, if his search would take him anywhere near as long as four years.
Top thanks to you for that somewhat informative snippet. What it must be like to be educated.
Green with envy be I.
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Mr Dodgy, what an absolutely brilliant (and thoroughly appropriate) piece. I doff my hat to you, sire.
It's really GKC you should be doffing to, as do I...
What it must be like to be educated.
I'm sure I had an education somewhere around here... where did I put it..? {:-{
The sad thing is that modern youth will not have the undoubted benefit of reading any of the great writers, because:
1 - they are not politically acceptable - indeed, they are generally dead white males.
2 - they have not been on television, which has been the formative influence for todays teachers...
<:( <:( <:(
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Ah, television - the scourge of today's dumbed-down, brain-washed Britain. I discovered some months previously that the implosion when a hammer is thrown at the screen makes for one heck of a loud "BOOOMB!". The same deal with the radio when I'd heard Chris Evans' foul mouth one particular morning. A Handy tool to keep in the lounge, is our old friend the hammer.
While you're there, hang on a moment - I have a vision coming through....
Hmm, yes, yes, it's coming, hang on....
Ah-ha - gottit!
The cabinet to the left-hand side of your desk... third drawer down. Inside is where you'll find your mislaid (mislain?) education.
Perhaps send it this way when you've finished with it?
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what we need is more mr camm s mr mitchel s and mr wallis not forgetting the two brothers
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The sad thing is that modern youth will not have the undoubted benefit of reading any of the great writers, because:
1 - they are not politically acceptable - indeed, they are generally dead white males.
2 - they have not been on television, which has been the formative influence for todays teachers...
Yes, but can you get an APP for that??
Regards Ian.
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Yes, but can you get an APP for that??
Regards Ian.
You mean summat like Kindle?
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Just found out that I can get an app (I think its an app - I used to call it a program) for a FREE kindle on my PC. I also found out that I can get the entire works of Mark Twain (and many other dead authors) for FREE to read using it. This does not, and is unlikely to, benefit the majority of today's youth since reading actual words is so uncool, and there are relatively few explosions involved. It does give an opportunity to ignore the TV for a while, so that's a win.
Sadly, it also does nothing to enhance the defence forces capability of this country or its possessions. Some predecessors of this government did the same thing a while back and lumbered us with a war in the Falklands. I expect that by the time of the next government they will be called "Los Malvinas".
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Just found out that I can get an app (I think its an app - I used to call it a program) for a FREE kindle on my PC. I also found out that I can get the entire works of Mark Twain (and many other dead authors) for FREE to read using it.
Please share the info. I know that this is a legal use of books, as they are classics in the public domain.
Then I will split this topic from the Nimrod as I am sure there may be others (apart from me) interested.
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what we need is more mr camm s mr mitchel s and mr wallis not forgetting the two brothers
Ah, yes, the Montgolfier brothers! Created the first ever flying machine. We could certainly do with more of those.
We could also do with more Stringfellows, Sir George Cayleys, and Lilienthals. Of particular note is the Anglo-Australian Hargrave, who invented the man-carrying box kite, and published his designs freely for others to learn from. The Kiwi Pearce is also worthy of mention..
I have a particular hobby-horse about the position of the Wright brothers in the development of the flying machine. They were anxious to benefit financially, claimed that they held the 'critical secret' of flight and attempted to patent it. As a result they have gone down in American folk-lore as 'the inventors of the airplane', while in reality their contribution was much more modest...
Oh. and I've found my education - :D :D :D
(http://s4.postimage.org/1vh5sfzhg/Certificate.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1vh5sfzhg/)
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Imagine what the world would be like if the Dayton boys had stuck to making bicycles :o
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answers on a post card please
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Imagine what the world would be like if the Dayton boys had stuck to making bicycles :o
postcard starts.....
Interestingly, the development of the aircraft would not have been affected one bit. Development in the US and Europe was almost completely separate, and though the Wright brothers had made a number of advances in motor and control technology, these were initially kept secret, and similar or improved advances were rapidly made completely independently elsewhere. The Wrights provided no critical breakthrough, they were simply one part of a continuous development which started in the 1890s and would have delivered a practical aircraft by 1910 in any circumstance.
The country providing most of the early development of the aircraft was France. The primary contribution of the Wrights was to institute a legal patent war in the US which suppressed aircraft development there. So much so, in fact, that when the US joined the 1st World War there was no US-based aircraft industry capable of making fighter aircraft, and they needed to buy French aircraft to equip their squadrons....
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Please share the info. I know that this is a legal use of books, as they are classics in the public domain.
Then I will split this topic from the Nimrod as I am sure there may be others (apart from me) interested.
The obvious place to get free books is the Gutenberg project. Here books are digitised and offered in a number of formats - you don't need a Kindle or an Android, but you can just read them on your PC....
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page refers...
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postcard starts.....
Interestingly, the development of the aircraft would not have been affected one bit. Development in the US and Europe was almost completely separate, and though the Wright brothers had made a number of advances in motor and control technology, these were initially kept secret, and similar or improved advances were rapidly made completely independently elsewhere. The Wrights provided no critical breakthrough, they were simply one part of a continuous development which started in the 1890s and would have delivered a practical aircraft by 1910 in any circumstance.
The country providing most of the early development of the aircraft was France. The primary contribution of the Wrights was to institute a legal patent war in the US which suppressed aircraft development there. So much so, in fact, that when the US joined the 1st World War there was no US-based aircraft industry capable of making fighter aircraft, and they needed to buy French aircraft to equip their squadrons....
Agreed but what about the guys from Dayton ?
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Historically (going Back to King Alfreds time) every time the Politician's down sized the Navy and cut the defence budget this country has had to go to war --- (Falklands)The fact that we won these wars is due to the guts, skill, fighting tenacity and sheer boneheaded stubbornness of the British people and Fighting forces to overcome the short sightedness and or sheer incompetence or criminal negligence of various governments who would rob us of the weapons we needed to defend ourselves and our dependents >>:-( <*<
Any child who can read a history book (At the moment that is, before they edit the truth out of them for being racist or politically incorrect)c an see this, so why can'tthe politicians??? I still say that we should have a legal 4 yearly cull of politicians who are deemed to have done harm to the country through neglegence or self profit >:-o >:-o
Freebooter
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Don't wait four years , it should be continuous O0 >>:-(
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Agreed but what about the guys from Dayton ?
Umm...Paul Laurence Dunbar? Robert Pollard? Mike Nawrocki? ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Dayton,_Ohio :D :D
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No no noooo no, the two fools who said they could fly, did they ever make a better bike ? %% {-)
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Oh. and I've found my education - :D :D :D
(http://s4.postimage.org/1vh5sfzhg/Certificate.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1vh5sfzhg/)
Dodgy I WANT ONE
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My limited knowledge/education, from what I have learnt over the years, has taught me that North America has been notorius for stealing inventions and claiming the credit for inventions that they themselves did not discover. For instance, it is no secret that Alexander G. Bell was not the first to invent the telephone. His only claim to fame is that he actually bribed the US Patent Office with hard $$$ in order to win the Gvmn't contract. A true American fellow by the name of ELisha Grey was reportedly to have submitted his idea for the telephone to the Patent Office BEFORE that of Bell. But money had spoken louder, and Mr Grey had utimately ended up being pushed out of the frame.
And then there was the rocket propulsion theory. Again, knowledge which the US had gleaned/stolen from the Germans. And Chuck Yeager, able to break the sound barrier - with British technology that the then British Gvnm't gave freely to the US in exchange for their technologies... which the US later welshed on the deal... and so on. The North American history of lies, corruption and deception is unsurpassed by any other so-called World Leaders.
And, to rub salt into the wounds, it came to light recently that American schoolkids are being taught that Winston Churchill was actually himself an American. Some 20-something typical mouthy American student was seen yelling into the TV camera that all us Brits would now be speaking the German lanuguage if it weren't for the US military saving our butts in WWII.
And not forgetting, of course, how badly those early American settlers had treated the indigenous peoples. The same sick mentality prevails even to this day. Dare I mention Iraq? Recently-released photos on the Internet of US troops using illegal torture methods on innocent folk. And the poor old Yankie officials now scratching their heads, left wondering why they are so despised by so many other nations.
Probably the best thing that this country can do is to give those damn Nimrods to the Yanks to go play with.
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Culling politicians then go to jail and get better care than in a nursing home free dental and all the other perks. The brothers Wright were not the first to powered flight it was not Australians ashamed to admit. but those from across the big pond in New Zealand. <:( If you know where Hargreaves jumped off the mountain in his kites they would lock him up now and put him on anti depressants. %%
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going back to the original subject, why is it that when I buy something, and it doesn't work, I take it back and the manufacturer has to replace or repair, but with MOD contracts they buy something, it doesn't work, and then the taxpayer has to pay the manufacturer even more to put right their shoddy work ?
is it me, or is there something wrong there ?
Buy a Nimrod from BAE, wheels won't come down, bomb bay doors won't open, back to BAE ----- FIX IT!
at your expense - not fit for purpose.
as that mammal says ..Simples.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/27/nimrod_scrappage/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/27/nimrod_scrappage/)
Lance
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I can only draw a comparison with the Belgian FN rifle. Known to the British Army as the SLR. Solid, dependable and cheap.
Its replacement was to be the SA 80/bull pup. Not dependable and not cheap.
The main selling point of the SA80 was the Trilux sight, which was in simple term, brilliant. The trilux sight was a quantum leap from the old iron sights.
However the Trilux could have been fitted on any other rifle.
Then there was the argument to move from 7.62mm rounds to 5.56mm.
However Hechler & Koch (HK) already had 5.56mm weapons developed at low cost, and on the market in the mid 1980s.
The drive was the Britain need to produce its own infantry rifle. Something it had not done for a long time.
From my understanding, the latest iteration of the SA 80 is in fact an HK modified weapon. With a post production modification cost of 400 GBP per item. The mod cost is almost the cost was almost the cost of a new weapon. NB at the time HK was owned by Royal Ordinance.
I think I read somewhere that even many American cars are more than 50% overseas sourced parts. As such I cannot understand the obsession with Made in UK. It does not work in any other industry.
During WW2 we had to be independent for manufacture. Since then we have lost the knack, the manufacturing skills and the money. Most of our new planes since 1970 have been JVs with Germany and Italy.
Looking at furball's posted link. Yes it is a gap in our strategic capability. But do we really need to/have to be the producer.
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We are not the only nation that makes a foul up when we introduce new kit for the military - remember when the Americans replaced the M1 Garrard
rifle with the AR15 during the Vietnam War - they had to make several mods and introduce a better regime of maintenance/cleaning by the troops before
it became the successful rifle it is today.
I beleive there have been serious problems with variants of the F35. Further in the past look at the problems the F104 caused.
It is just that we hear about our c--k ups and believe that it is only our industry which is incapable of making a good equipment.
Even th Germans recently made a class of corvettes which nobody wanted and have proved not to be fit for purpose - half of them
couldnt leave harbour due to gearbox problems etc. etc.
It is just that us being British and with our defence procurement system we seem to do it far more expensively.
There is no excuse for poorly made, over budget kit. BUT DON'T THINK IT JUST HAPPENS HERE - IT IS ENDEMIC WITHIN THE DEFENCE INDUSTRY WORLDWIDE.
Geoff
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going back to the original subject, why is it that when I buy something, and it doesn't work, I take it back and the manufacturer has to replace or repair, but with MOD contracts they buy something, it doesn't work, and then the taxpayer has to pay the manufacturer even more to put right their shoddy work ?
The answer is not hard to find. Look for it in the Bristol (Abbey Wood) offices of that august body, the MOD Procurement Executive/Defence Procurement Agency/Defence Equipment & Support (to give them a selection of their most recent names.
If you buy an item and it works perfectly, you put it in a drawer and are happy. If they buy an item and everything works perfectly, they are out of a job for 10 years until the next purchase is required. This is, of course a general problem with all specialist procurement agencies, but our civil servants are the best in the world at 'civil service' skills....
simples...
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"Nobody does it better" :-)) {-)
Regards Ian
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mod-bribes-scandal-cost-hundreds-of-british-jobs-1502116.html
And you are left to wonder how many more were/are in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Foxley
Lost 2 years of his life, was allowed to keep the illicit gains from throwing a town out of work.
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Looks like I was wrong about there being no more Nimrods flying , the spooks have 2 R1 aircraft still operational over Afghanistan
MoD decision to use older version of Nimrod ‘crazy’
Read more: http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2116019#ixzz1Cij2zmq2
two R1 planes still being used in spy role in skies over Afghanistan
By David Perry
Published: 01/02/2011
One of the ‘Secret Squirrel’ Nimrods at RAF Kinloss
More Pictures
A Ministry of Defence decision to carry on using an older version of the scrapped Nimrod surveillance aircraft, due to be based at RAF Kinloss in Moray, in a spy-in-the-sky role over Afghanistan was labelled “crazy” last night.
SNP defence spokesman Angus Robertson, MP for Moray, hit out after it was revealed two Nimrod R1 planes of 51 Squadron, based at RAF Waddington near Lincoln, are still being used in the war zone.
One of the “Secret Squirrels” broke cover last week to land at RAF Kinloss, performing “circuits and bumps” at the base and “dummy approach and overshoots” at Kirkwall in Orkney, to the amazement of onlookers who thought the Nimrods were history.
It flew out to Afghanistan at the weekend to replace its sister, which was returning home early after springing a fuel leak.
Mr Robertson said: “The UK Government are making one crazy decision after another on defence.
“The MoD need to say how it is possible that the oldest R1 aircraft are still in service when MR2s are grounded and new MR4s are being scrapped.
“We are also in the bizarre position of the R1 being replaced with an even older Joint Rivet aircraft, bought second-hand from the United States, just as our own new, state-of-the-art Nimrods are being scrapped on the factory floor.”
The MR2s, which were performing surveillance duties over Afghanistan, were grounded after one, the XV230, blew up over Kandahar in 2006, killing all 14 on board.
The assistant deputy coroner for Oxfordshire ruled the MR2 “had never been airworthy from the first time it was released into service nearly 40 years ago.”
Only three MR2s remain at RAF Kinloss. One is being broken up, one is in a hangar awaiting its fate and the third is a “gate guardian” at the far end of the airfield.
Nine MRA4s, costing £450million each and once destined for Kinloss, are being broken up at Woodford, Cheshire.
Aviation writer David Morgan, of Forres, said: “People have forgotten about the two intelligence-gathering R1s that will continue to fly until March 2012.
“MoD spin might suggest they are different from the grounded MR2, but only in function.
“Underneath the skin they are still Nimrods and the airframe at RAF Kinloss this week is just a reworked Nimrod MR2.
“This entire episode is a disgrace and the UK’s air defences have been severely weakened by the collective Nimrod decisions.”
Last night, Defence Secretary Liam Fox vigorously defended the decision to scrap the MRA4s and accused Labour critics of talking “humbug”.
He said the last Labour government opened up a gap in defences by grounding the MR2s and filled it using helicopters and other aircraft.
Mr Fox said the replacement MRA4 was “too long over time, too far over budget”.
He added: “It wasn’t able to fly and carry out the tasks that were asked of it. It should have been cancelled years ago.”
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mod-bribes-scandal-cost-hundreds-of-british-jobs-1502116.html
And you are left to wonder how many more were/are in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Foxley
Lost 2 years of his life, was allowed to keep the illicit gains from throwing a town out of work.
Shhhhh don't mention the BAe/Saudi deal.
Regards Ian
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Good job fuel was not where it was before, otherwise wed only have one Nimrod left. John
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Shhhhh don't mention the BAe/Saudi deal.
Regards Ian
True, but the Saudis neither had a home aerospace industry, nor any intention of getting one, so there was no question of a Saudi committing treason against his countrymen by destroying their livelihoods. And the BAe backhanders were probably bigger and better than the Lockheed ones, so it was just a reallocation of wealth, and business as usual for the time and place.
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Ahh, right, the acceptable face of corruption. :-))
Regards Ian.
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seeing the news footage of the Nimrods at the hands of the JCBs, being broken up, reminds me of another glorious episode in the history of british aviation. The destruction of the TSR2, plus all the jigs etc,etc. There seems to be an indecent haste to reduce this aircraft to scrap. Although reading the previous posts, Nimrod does not seem to be in the same class as TSR2 could have been. I personally would prefer to see the silhouette of Nimrod in the air rather than another Boeing 737, albeit painted gray!! The ongoing procurement madness over the years beggars belief, Airbus A400 over Hercules C130J, which I believe we already have in service in the RAF. The same RAF that disposed of Joint Force Harrier to rationalise on the number of airframe types in service (not to scupper the Fleet Air Arm, god forbid!). Eurofighter Typhoon, which took so long coming into service ( I can remember the EAP Prototype at Farnborough Airshow in the mid eighties.) that it is the only truly modern design for which 'stealth' is a name and a possible coat of paint only. The US F22 is in service, admittedly you could probably purchase a couple of minehunters for the cost of one of those, The F35 is flying, The Russians have prototype stealth fighters in the air, and yet, between what is it, five nations, all we can manage is a super agile fighter with the probable radar cross section of a barn door!
We are cutting the Frigate and Destroyer fleet to the bone, while at the same time sending RFA tankers to chase pirates, the Type 22 frigates,recently modified to carry more RIBs are being cut from the fleet this year. I feel the defence of the land would be better served in the hands of our boat clubs committee, and that is saying something %% %%.
I could go on....Type 26 frigates already being downgraded in capability after being designed with existing technology where possible to keep costs down, and they are not even being built yet..
But..
Why can we not build Boeing P8 Poseidons under licence in this country. It worked for Westland Helicopters in the 60s,70s and 80s with Whirlwind, Wessex and Sea King helicopters all based on Sikorsky designs, with our own bits of junk added?
I would be happier with the long range patrol and search and rescue role available than not, if that means Boeing product rather than the graceful ( in my eyes anyway ) Nimrod, so be it. But to do without it, simply because the costs overran, seems foolish, reckless, even criminal.....
Anyway, back to a bit of boat modelling...
Damn! My superglue has dried up....I HATE THAT!!!!! :-))
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Are there one or two airworthy Shackletons left around somewhere....?
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Shhhhhh !
don't mention Shacks.
good solid aircraft.
did what it said on the box - and much much more.
even changed roles when the newer Nimrod based AEW aircraft didn't work out, and soldiered on for years and years.
so: good aircraft - effective - versatile - very good value for money .............................
couldn't possibly want something like that again could we ?
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Perhaps we can get the Chinese to make us some Shackletons and sell then to us for 100m each? I understand the Nimrods were costing upwards of 400m each. Or maybe the Russians have some spare Tu-95 Bear Ds they could lend us....
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In an Emergency We could always recommission the Lanc with her attendant Spitfires and Hurricane and for high speed work the one Air worthy Vulcan the odd Shack or 2 for maritime reconnaissance. The RAF should be able too make do,,, and while we are about it for the RN, HMS Victory , HMS Warrior and the Teak built Frigate Trincamalee and not to forget HMS Belfast
( Bloody good job they didn't sell HMS Victory to that French outfit ) The Army should be able to re-arm its self from the Muckleburg collection backed up by Royal armouries in Sheffield and the Royal tank Museum at Bodmin There you are the country's defences sorted out for the next 10 years and I 'm not a bean counter or a Politician
Freebooter
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Make that two Vulcans the one at Southend airport taxis. Bit more work and Bobs your uncle. John.
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makes you wonder why we need an MOD, perhaps MBM could do a better job, and at a fraction of the price, although the fact that they have actual knowledge of what they are talking about could be a DISadvantage.
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There you are the country's defences sorted out for the next 10 years and I 'm not a bean counter or a Politician..
Well, we did much the same at Dunkirk....
I have a plan based on Cpl. Jones' butchers van from Dad's Army. We borrow a couple of Airbus A320 short-haul airliners from Easyjet. Then we load them with 50 cadets with Lee-Enfields. You fly up to the intruder into UK airspace, turn parallel to it, then the cadets open the windows on that side (2,3), poke the rifles out (2,3), then shout "BANG!" (2.3)....
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That should make the intruders injury themselves laughing. John.
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They don't like it up 'em.....!! {-) {-)
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...........but if it was one of sleazyjets they'd get charged extra for carrying weapons and ammunition on board...... (your rifle will not fit into the cabin luggage box, sir........Ka-ching))
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I say Chaps you do realise of course that this is the sort of levity that brings down governments,
As for the MOD it's run by politicans not the fighting men, the only way the fighting fighting men can get any equipment out of the MOD is to put the case for it in front of the people via the press = Afghan= APC's , personal protection (Armor) Helicopters , radios and Com's and small arm;s We've some of the best trained and most highly experienced Fighting men in the world Pity about the 2nd rate out dated Equipment or lack of it they have to put up with...I often wonder if a certain government has a hold on ours because sense the 2nd WW it seems that we can never build our own weapons or develop the discovery's we had made because things like the fully movable tail on our rocket air craft wasn't allowed to Evan fly, never mind be the first aircraft to break the sound barrier, but had to be dismantled and ALL paper work and the bits shipped to the USA. The TSR2 speaks for its self, As dose the SR177 all scrapped even though several hundred orders orders were on the books.... its almost as if we are no longer allowed the follow up our own inventions .... Am I talking a load of rubbish, Maybe... My Kids and Grandchildren say I'm a grumpy old man so maybe I should leave well enough alone
Freebooter
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To right Jimmy. John.
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Look on Abe Books for a book.... this one http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?bt.x=66&bt.y=12&kn=Derek+Wood&sts=t&tn=project+cancelled
Its old,1975, but it has all the grisly details...Don't read it your already depressed :} it's highly sort after hence the price
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Look on Abe Books for a book.... this one http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?bt.x=66&bt.y=12&kn=Derek+Wood&sts=t&tn=project+cancelled
Its old,1975, but it has all the grisly details...Don't read it your already depressed :} it's highly sort after hence the price
I have this book, dont read it, its a lost golden age, but, hey, those that run the country only have the countrys best interests at heart %% {-) ok2
<:(
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Cameron???
More like Cameroon
Maybe we will be getting foreign aid within a couple of years if his ilk have their way
Ned