Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: 2772e on February 26, 2007, 08:11:17 PM

Title: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 26, 2007, 08:11:17 PM

I am trying to upgrade a stock Kyosho ic C-1 offshore cat from a .21 size engine to about a 28.

I am struggling to find a marine engine supplier in the uk? .28 or slightly bigger, water cooled with pull start and flywheel.

Any advise would be great.

Regards

Simon
 ???
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: glennb2006 on February 26, 2007, 09:06:39 PM
http://www.osengines.com/engines/osmg1636.html

Have a look here, it's the nearest I think you will get. Don't want to come across as too negative, but I am not sure it will be that economical for you to do as you propose, after you get the engine then a new pipe is needed, realign couplings and probably have to refix engine mounts, etc etc.

Lots of model shops either stock or can order OS engines for you.

Good luck, hope this helps. 

Glenn
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 26, 2007, 09:21:11 PM
Thanks Glenn,

I have spoken to my local model shop about this engine. They are struggling to find it? I found it on the tower hobbies website for a reasonable price though.

I should be able to pick a pipe for 16 pounds, they have got a specoal on them.

Regards
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 26, 2007, 09:32:51 PM
Hi Simon,

Just to concur what Glenn says, the Koysho Lamborghini is a big boat and will take a more powerful engine but you will find that other parts may also need beefing up! All the extra power will put a strain on the hull and running gear and may also need upgrading.



http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNG18&P=0
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on February 26, 2007, 09:35:25 PM
I saw a 28 pull start marine last week - available in Hong Kong.  Prices are good but the postage makes a difference.  You get to it from Ebay
http://cgi3.ebay.in/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=com-rcworldwide (http://cgi3.ebay.in/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=com-rcworldwide)
but their site is "under construction" at the moment so can't check.
Can you get a decent tuned pipe on your 21?  As your 21 and the 28 are probably 'sports' side exhaust engines, you won't get a huge increase in speed going up to a 28.  You'd probably get more out of it with a decent pipe, bigger carb, and half an hour with a Dremel ;D
Danny

Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on February 26, 2007, 09:42:48 PM
Just realised - "Edible engine" wanted to know the prop size for his "28 MDS" in an earlier thread.  Try an MDS supplier (or local shop)
or find out where he got his.  MDS should be cheap enough but good engines.
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on February 27, 2007, 11:32:15 AM
Hi Simon try this one looks a good price and shipping to here is only $10 no tax either ive orederd all sorts from them and never a problem.dont forget to order the flywheel too.http://http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Chung-Yang-CY-25-25-Class-Marine-Engine-Made-In-Taiwan_W0QQitemZ150028297406QQihZ005QQcategoryZ34058QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on February 27, 2007, 11:36:38 AM
this ones even better try this one it looks wicked for not much more.
http://http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STS-CMB-JP-NOVAROSSI-SH-OS-RB-SIRIO-BOAT-28-GAS-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ6010925661QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116075QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: retro boats on February 27, 2007, 12:18:03 PM
hello
 it could be a better idea to upgrade to a more powerfull 21 engine with a good tuned pipe (not a car one)  this will have much more power than a 28 would give you also would fit in yourboat with less problems
 just engines used to sell a hot 21 Leo competition engine for about £80 in side or rear exhaust they had just over 2.2hp
       good luck steve
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: BJ on February 27, 2007, 01:54:43 PM
just engines used to sell a hot 21 Leo competition engine for about £80 in side or rear exhaust they had just over 2.2hp
       good luck steve

Only the side exhaust is available now in the Leo range BUT change your Carb for a bigger venturi bore. Did that on a 46 - went from a 7½mm to an 8mm venturi and got nearly 10 mph more.
Just Engines probably can supply you a new carb to suit.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on February 27, 2007, 02:08:57 PM
as you can see that is not a car motor although nova rosi make car engines that one is a marine engine and its hard to beat power wise for its size at that price.far superior quality to anything you will get over here for that sort of price too.simon what rpm is your engine putting out now? the first one i linked puts out 42.000 which is pretty good id say for that price.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 27, 2007, 08:02:55 PM
OK Chaps.

Now i ame really confussed!!

I ent with a mate to the lake at the weekend, mine as you know is a kyosho c1 cat and he has a kyosho rtr monohull, about the same length but it has got te 28 engine in it. The performance difference was amazing and one does not like to be shown up at the lake. You know what i mean.

I have pulled his boat apart and the set up is the same as mine, the skeg, prop, tube, mountings etc are all the same so i am happy that the 28 will work in mine without ripping the guts out everything. I also understand that in the 2007 kyosho manual the 28 is a hop up, but no availabilioty details at present.

I soke to my model shop today and they said they could get me the os 31 by the weekend for 140 quid. I have had al look at the recomendations, the chang yany and the sts. The sts looks ok, little worried about the other one.

I will also need a header, flywheel, dog drive, and tuned pipe! The os comes with flywheel.

So what do i do!
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: BJ on February 27, 2007, 08:11:55 PM
Try the Carb option first for one tenth of the price. One phone call to Just Engines will  tell you if it is possible  and a half a millimetre extra  in the bore will make a massive difference.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on February 27, 2007, 09:01:31 PM
That STS looks a really mean motor, rear exhaust, and just look at that turbo'ed crank - and 1.58hp (that's nearly as much as my 21  ;) )
You'll really get the boat going with that!!  If it fitted into the racing classes, I'd buy one myself!  At £66 you can't go wrong.
Get it ordered, don't forget the flywheel, dump the slide carb and get an 8 - 8.5mm bore barrel carb from JustEngines.
Then get your smug grin ready  ;D
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 27, 2007, 09:10:52 PM
omra

I am also looking to get a proper pertrol/ic boat and have been looking at a nimrif makara and or the bonzi 51 baja.

Can you recommend any for a start, i would prefer to stick to the cats, do you know any suppliers, the Guisse looks nice but not sure about the price. I want to stick wiyh a single engine?

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 27, 2007, 10:42:20 PM


Before you spend too much money Simon, first things first;

1. What fuel are you using? Is it the recommended fuel?
2. Are you sure the engine is tuned properly?
3. Are you sure the drive line is completely free and not binding anywhere? If it fully lubricated?
4. Have you tried different props?
5. Has / is the engine run in properly?
6. Is the the drive skeg / strudder adjustable? Have you tried different angles and depths?

I had load of problems with my Graupner Arrow and in the end, it turned out to be a prop size selection problem!
Have a look at -  Graupner Arrow Build (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/My_models/06_arrow.htm)

Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on February 27, 2007, 11:19:50 PM
Get the sts nova rosi engine that is one mean motor as said,it was tested beyond belief and kept running when other engines would have melted!!.at 66 quid its a bargeain and i bet it will run faster than the os engine too.id also check your drive line and strut angle also not to mention your prop.is it balanced? sharpened? if not it needs to be.140 quid for an os 30 or 60 quid for the sts hmmm i know which one id go for lol.yer mate wont know what hit him .Simon instead of wasting yer money on a rtr why not build one? i have some nice cat plans for a gas motor if your interested?.did you check out my deep v build yet?.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 28, 2007, 07:46:37 AM
Martin,

Thanks for your advise, i spent most of the afternoon on Saturday going through everything in search of speed. In answer to your questions, and i hope i have not missed anything:
1. She is running n 25% fuel, it is the recommended and the best one i could find, i have tried a couple of others in my buggy.
2. The engine is tuned, by me. I was happy with the performance of the boat when she was on her own. But next to the other bigger engined mono hull seems slow know. I believe she is at scale speed.
3. I have had her all apart and all is clear and greased in the drive line, i would prefer to have bearings on the tube, but at the moment the factory standard is brass collets.
4. I bought a couple of props from the prop shop and did muck about with them and some other ones that my mate had but she still seems to run faster on the stock one.
5. The engine was run in a few weeks ago and is not tight.
6. I played around with the trim tabs and the skeg, she was cavutating to begin with but with adjustments i think she is at her maximum speed.

I have googled videos of similat c1 cats and they all seem about same, i just need more power Scottie!

I have assumed that i am getting the best out of what i got. I will have a look at your build later.

Thanks
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 28, 2007, 07:47:17 AM
Martno1fan,

I have ordered the sts engine and would love a set of plans for the cat.

Thanks

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on February 28, 2007, 12:14:10 PM
Martno1fan,

I have ordered the sts engine and would love a set of plans for the cat.

Thanks

Simon
good on yaa mate you wont be disapointed im sure i was thinking of one myself for my old boat before i decided on the big mono im now building.pm me with your email and ill get you some plans sent over.its a 4 ft cat i think so will need a zen or similar to get her up to speed!!.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 28, 2007, 01:07:03 PM
Can you post a link to the video please?
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Needed
Post by: 2772e on February 28, 2007, 02:29:27 PM
Hi Martin,

Your wish is my command. Oh great one!

Never done this before so fingers crossed.

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=kyosho+c1 (http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=kyosho+c1)

I will try and get some video of mine this weekend, then i need guidance on how to get it on the site.

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 28, 2007, 06:56:34 PM
Sounds like it needs a tuned pipe!
(Was the other unseen noisey boat any good?!?)
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on February 28, 2007, 08:54:02 PM
As well as a bigger engine!

Just noticed that the skeg is mounted too high, need to re do that me thinks. Get the hull up and out of the water.

Regards
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 16, 2007, 09:18:46 PM
Finally got my new STS 0.28 engine from the far east! Did not come with a flywheel and i have had a nightmare finding a commercially available version.

Gave up and got a local engineering company to make me one. Tried to bench test/run in without one and it was a nightmare. Fitted the new flywheel this evening and ran a tank of 16 through her very rich and she is purring.

Another hour in the morning running her in and then into the cat and off to the lake, Sweeeeet! Then the tuning fun starts!

Totally hooked by fast petrol/ic boats so ordered a Makara from Nimrif Models, due Tuesday.

Have joined OMRA and going to have a go at the racing scene.

Pics to follow.

Regards

Simon

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 17, 2007, 09:57:24 AM
Wicked Simon im glad your pleased with the engine let us know how she performs in the boat,i bet she will be fast now but id take her steady for a tank or two first, bench testing isnt the same as actually running in a boat.Next youll be having a go at building one like me, if you fancy it let me know i have some cool plans for my deep v and shes a beuty check my thread out for new pics.by the way mate thats one big boat youve ordered what power plant you going to use for it? a modded zen or a qd?.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 17, 2007, 11:27:43 AM
Hi Martin,

Zenohah 26 cc petrol with water cooling and a tuned pipe to begin with. Should do 40+ ish so that will do for starters.

See how we get on first and go from there!

Regards
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 17, 2007, 12:36:40 PM
they have some good deals from usa and wong kong on zens at the moment !!,you can even get a modded one pretty good price too.id say for a 60" boat your gonna need a modded zen to push it fast ,i know a cpl guys have big boats and they run zens one has a stock one and the other a modded one and the speed diff is big.what prop you planning on using for it?p 275 or 280 are good choices or an octura similar size prop maybe a x482?.Glenn has a big miami hull he should be able to help more than me.but a big hull needs big power to push it and a stock zen will struggle to go really fast ,a lot depends on the weight i guess.isnt the makara a copy of the apache hull?.i also think a guy from the uk who uses rcu has one or did and he ran a math 35 in it and a sikk in his apache and had similar results speed wise ,he ran a 3 bladed octura prop 470/3with the sikk i beleive.if you go with a stock zen im sure it will push it well just not fast!!if you havent allready bought the engine id consider getting a modded one from the states.unless you can afford dave marles zen 7 as i think thats what glenn has in his big boat!!.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 17, 2007, 08:48:55 PM
Hi Simon and welcome to OMRA :D
As Martin says, the Makara is a BIG boat so, depending on which type of engine you want, it's got to be a CMB 90 or a Zenoah.  For starting out form scratch, I would go for the Zen (bite your tongue, Danny)(in joke between Martin and me, sorry) as it will work out cheaper, I think - although I've just seen Dave's pipe prices so I ain't sure :o
Last year in the OMRA championships, there were 20 competitors in 'C' class (90 glow) and 33 in 'D' class (petrol up to 50cc) so the petrol boats are gaining in popularity. Nowadays, they are easy (ish) to set up and cheap to run but all the fittings and stuff can be expensive although probably not as expensive as a 90 (but the 90 will be faster).
Glad you like the STS.  I look forward to a video of it running.
See you at the races
Danny
                                                                                                                             
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: glennb2006 on March 18, 2007, 05:56:39 AM
But there are plenty of CMB 90's cropping up on auction sites, some with pipes included. Have seen a few around for £125 - £150 including pipe. Only bogey is the carting all the starting gear around, plus they cost a bit to run.

I take it Danny that 33 petrol boats do not run in the same race?  :o

I guess if they do there are 33 excuses for me not finishing!!

Glenn
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Needed
Post by: 2772e on March 18, 2007, 08:57:22 AM
Danny,

Thanks for the comments, the Makara will be running a stock 26cc Zenohah on an outdrive, with tuned pipe. I am reliably informed that it should do about 40 mph. I hope! They seem quite popular in the D class and a good starter boat i hope.

Its due to arrive on Tuesday and then i need to start screwing it all together and then a couple of months playing/setting up etc before racing. Don't want to embarrass myself.

The cat is over with Andy Payne having the flywheel re machined to make it true and he is modifying a tuned pipe  for the new STS so no playing for a while.

I will have to play with my new buggy instead, oh well!

I look forward to meeting you on the racing scene.

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 18, 2007, 04:01:55 PM
Simon depending on what drive your talking about id reconsider and just go with a strut set up, the outdrives rob quite a bit of power from the motor.a simple flex connected to a stub shaft running in a strut like mine will be faster.dont forget shops try to sell things id get a basic strud and an offset rudder,if however by a drive you mean a stinger? then you should be ok .outdrives are for big engines or at least fully modded zens from what ive read .with a stock zen you will lose a lot of rpm with an outdrive.check out rcu for lots of great tips on setting up your boat and ask what they think the best set up would be for that hull,like i say its basicly an apache hull just a diff name very popular in the states.that said it is an old hull so wont be the fastest boat out there.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 18, 2007, 04:41:23 PM
Simon
A couple of the Bristol lads have been experimenting with outdrives (for about 2 years).  They look good but do suck power with the drive train.  They are also a pig to set up properly for steering.  The boats go great until you try to turn :o
Go with the 'standard' setup of skeg, tube and flexi.  It will be cheaper and more reliable.  Have a look on the photos on the OMRA website
http://www.omra-uk.org/index2.htm (http://www.omra-uk.org/index2.htm)
When you get it built, don't worry about embarassing yourself, some of us do it quite often ;D  As long as you can keep in a straight line thats all you need. The faster boats will drive round you, course, if your the fastest then you can just bide your time and overtake when you feel like it (well that's the theory anyway) ::)  You'll be more than welcome at any race and, if you ask, others will offer advice (often conflicting) and help you set up.  The only occasional one who goes with the 'been there, done that' attitude doesn't seem to get much help when needed ??? ??? ;D

Glenn
Yes all 33 in 'D' class AND 20 in the 'C' class all have a jolly time racing in the same heat without any collisions;D ;D
(For those who are taking me seriously - it's a lie!  We are limited to 12 boats per heat).

Danny
 
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 18, 2007, 07:45:48 PM
Danny,

Are you suggesting i avoid the surface piercing outdrive and stick to the submersed drives?

My cat runs an outdrive and i seem to get on ok with that.

I am not sure that the Makara comes with submersed, more info please?

Regards ???
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 18, 2007, 09:22:06 PM
Simon
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Z drives (sometimes called "outdrives"), which are model versions of the full sized ones, where the engine is connected straight through the transom to a 90 deg shaft and then down to another 90 deg shaft to which the prop is attached.  The whole unit is steerable.  It looks a bit like the bottom bit of an outboard motor ???

I use surface drive, very similar to your cat. It will be fine on the Makara which I don't think was designed for submerged drive anyway.

Sorry about the confusion

Danny
(If it's still as clear as mud - I'll try again) ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 18, 2007, 10:52:32 PM
Simon i think your confusing a stinger drive with what we call and outdrive , a stinger is fine its just as good as a strut set up but the strut is more stable as you can get the prop a bit further back from the transome .Which actually makes the boat longer thus more stable!!.Heres a pic of a stinger  and a strut and also an outdrive.The outdrive steers as Danny says but they can still be surface drives they do lose you a lot of power though and are more for scale looks than speed.For all out speed the simple strut set up is the best way as Danny says although the stinger is probably as good too.Hope this has cleared up any confusion .
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 19, 2007, 09:27:59 AM
A picture tells a thousand words ;D Thanks Martin
Are the 3 boats yours?
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 19, 2007, 04:33:56 PM
no Danny not all mine apart from the first one with home made rudder and standoff. just pics ive aquired from research as ive been reading up on these boats ok i nicked em lol!!.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 19, 2007, 07:15:48 PM
Danny/Martin,

I have always and will always avoid z drivers, or inboard/outboard as i call it. I served an apprentaship on marine engines and have personal experiences of my dads boat, a Searay 270 Sundancer in Florida.

Absoulte nightmare! Enough said.

Chased up the enw boat today, will be shipped tomorrow so i should get it Wednesday. Then hust a matter of screwing together and get your feet wet!

I will post a thread on my builds when i get it!
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 19, 2007, 07:21:08 PM
Forgot to add in my last post.

"Too clutch or not to clutch?"

Answers on a postcard, with pro's and cons please?

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 19, 2007, 10:10:42 PM
Simon
You should consider a clutch ONLY after you've got all the essentials installed - cigar lighter, CD player, cruise control, etc ;D
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 20, 2007, 10:08:16 AM
a clutch is handy for big boats but like danny said for racing its not needed,i prefer a clutch for a fun boat its easier and safer if you got kids around when your playing.i dont think any of the guys racing will have a clutch and clutches for zens are expensive so id leave it out.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: glennb2006 on March 20, 2007, 10:31:16 AM
No clutch:

Negatives:

Something else to go wrong
Costly
Heavy
Need a water pump on engine

Positives:

Easier launching
Err....

Glenn
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 20, 2007, 01:10:03 PM
you dont need a water pump if you run a clutch unless you plan on idling in the margins for long periods.i know matt off rcu (justadwatta) runs clutches in most if not all his big boats and doesnt allways use a water pump.the clutch is just handy for bringing the boat back to shore and also for launching especially if its a big boat and your on your own!!.me personally i prefer a clutch but its up to the individual i guess.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 21, 2007, 09:48:02 PM

Boat and fittings have arrived!!! ;D

Need some advise with the drive set up please?

Brass tube, flexi drive, and then rudder!

1. Is the tube fixed to the hull.
2. Should i drill the hole as low as she will go! (You know who!)
3. The rudder has slots for adjustment, i presume. The height adjustment will be very minimal in this case. How much flex is there in the cable?
4. How far offset and at what height should the rudder be mounted? Which side?

Dont even get me started on the engine mount set up!

What have i done!

Please help?

Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 21, 2007, 10:54:22 PM
Siimon, what have you done :o :o ;D
Entered the world of BIG toys ;D  Don't forget, it's supposed to be fun.

So, to start:
I will suggest things in the order I usually build, but as ever you're your own boss ;)

I assume that Paul hasn't sent any set up instructions with the hull.  The first thing to do is phone him up and ask for them.  He should provide them with it.
As there WON'T be a build sheet with it (use nitro sniffers do things the hard way) ;D  you'll have to rely on us motley band for advice :'(

I always lay everything in the bottom of the hull in the approx positions I think it should be and look for any obvious problems.

Before you start you should have - the radio box, the tank and the engine (on it's mounts). This will enable you to see how they will all fit.  The radio box (I make my own because I like a certain style) goes back next to the transom.  This will tell you how far forward the tank (or bag) can go.  Now lay the engine in where you think it should go, and any other bits as near as you can get to the positions they will live in (plastic bag with drive back end, trim tabs and rudder in, clipped to the transom) to give you an idea of weight distribution.  It should, with the top on and all the bits in about the right place, balance about 1/3 of the length from the transom.
Adjust the engine position until you get a decent balance, then mark the position of things inside the hull with a pencil.

The hole for the shaft does go at the bottom of the V, dead centre.  Drill the hole a lot smaller than the tube size and open it up with a round file.  This allows you to get the hole right into the V.  Keep your file level with the inside of the hull. The shaft is going to exit  parallel with the bottom of the hull and as low as possible.

The engine, shaft and skeg are all going to be put in together so that they line up :o 

Has the Makara got stringers up the inside of the hull.  If it has, you can estimate where your engine will be mounted (low as possible but with enough clearance to allow for vibration movement). The angle of the engine should be so that the output shaft aims directly at a point halfway between the engine and the shaft hole in the transom (remember the shaft tube is going to be bent soon).  Now you need a piece of 1/4" diam straight bar about 2" long (I assume you're using a 1/4" flexishaft).  This is used in your engine coupler to align the shaft tube.  Also stock up on plasticine which is used to support things until they're correctly aligned.

Part 2 tomorrow.

Danny

Ps Don't suppose you live anywhere near the Midlands, we could do a photo build (it's quicker than writing it down) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 22, 2007, 08:39:37 AM
Danny to the rescue! :D

Hopefully the time spent mucking about and modifying my cat will hold me in good stead for this one!

You must know Paul, he promised some basic instructions but non arrived. I had a play with all the bits briefly last night. Just looks like bags of bits, definite lack of hardware, nuts bolts etc. I have compiled a list of about 20 questions for Paul this morning, so i hope he is in a patient mood. ???

Got all the bits i think, apart from hardware, off to the local diy store for a load of stainless and nylocks i guess! Engine looks tiny, might have to go for a bigger one to fill some of the void!

Fuel tank is a solid plastic type, 1 litre.

All the bits get lost in the hull, not used to having so much room. No stringers, all open plan!

As far as engine mounting is concerned? Is the position note denoted by the length of the flexidrive (yes she is 1/4) i assume that this cannot or should not be cut down? The prop tube will have to be cut down as it is too long.

Clear on the hole thing, where should i mount the auto bailer in relation to the tube? Does it matter, (just low i assume?) Is the tube glued in?

Did i pick up that the shaft runs parallel to the hull and then the pipe is kinked/bent upwards to meet the engine? Is that right?

Unfortunately in this case i am at a dissadvantage not living in the Midlands, i am in Essex XR3i country, but from Herts originally, i have got more than the normal two brain sells associated with the locals, no harm intended! :o

The picture build will help me out!

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 22, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
hi simon yes the tube is bent upwards do it with the flex in the tube and do it very slowly what i did was get the boat balanced first this is done by fitting the hardware on the hull then radio gear, box etc then balance the boat on a broom handle 25 to 35% from the tramsome is good.once you find the balance point mark where the engine needs to go then you have the engine on a slight downward angle to meet the flex cable bend the tube up to meet it.you may need to cut the flex to lengh like i did.to do this use a dremmel cutting wheel or angle grinder.i used a larger diam tube to slide the flex tube into so i can remove the flex tube if needed ,the larger tube is only 4" long and is glassed into the hull at the transome and is inserted through the hole but flush with the outside.i used a bracket and a wooden block glassed into the hull to hold the engine end of the flex tube using nyloc nuts to hold it fast been carefull not to kink the tube.by the way the zens look small but at 4 hp or upto 7 they are more than capable of moving that boat faster than you will ever need in an offshore race beleive me!!.you can get round cutting the flex by moving the engine about if you have room which it sounds like you do.if you do have to cut it wrap tape and a cpl of zip ties either side of where your going to cut it and do it slow as to not get the flex too hot .the ties stop the fibres unwinding.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 22, 2007, 08:53:04 PM
Cor Simon - Martin in shining armour as well :D  This is your lucky forum.

The photos of Marts show the tube angle. Unlike a submerged drive, all of the tube is protected by the hull, so even if it's gets hit, it won't damage the tube, so the outer tube is a matter personal taste. Once my tube is in, it stays in. ;D
The self bailer is mounted low to the left of the shaft (as you look at the transom) about 8 - 10mm from the shaft. Glass it in with about 10mm sticking out (if it's flush, the back pressure from the transom draws water INTO the bailer which never seal perfectly) I do all of my internal fixing with Isopon P40, the one with glass fibres in it.  Don't put too much hardener in it or it goes too brittle and don't use it too thickly as the heat and shrinkage can distort the hull.

Don't be afraid to cut the flexi, they are never the right length, as Mart says, use a 1mm cutting disc in a Dremel and make sure the flexi is secured in something soft (not steel vice jaws, fibre or wood is OK) almost to the cutting point. Then GENTLY does it ;)  Leave the flexi cutting until last when you have the engine and tube properly mounted and solid.  Leave about 12 - 15mm between the end of your engine collet and the start of the tube.  When you start greasing it, after runs, you squirt a LITTLE grease into the transom end, and then use the flexi to push the grease up to 'coat' the inside of the tube.  If you've left enough room, you can put your finger over the inner of the tube to stop the grease being pushed straight into the boat.

Have you decided where your pipe is going, the weight distribution will vary depending on whether you have the pipe running up the side of the radio box (under deck) or round to the centre of the hull and over the radio box.  I believe some of the Makaras have the pipe coming round 90deg and then up through the side of the deck, but I don't think they look very good.  All depends on which manifold you use and how you want it to look.

I used to race Multi a lot round your neck of the woods, Stevenage, Basildon, Dagenham. 
From your accent I would say you're from either Harlow or Basildon ;D ;D

BW
Danny
 
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 22, 2007, 09:18:30 PM
Hi Danny/Mart,

Thanks for the info, i have rubbed down the hull and applied the first layers of new paint tonight.

Tomorrow my sticker mas is coming over to see me to measure up etc. so the weekend is going to be with the boat.

I had a long chat with Paul this morning and cleared up allot of the points, 1 strange item though. He said mount the prop about 8-10mm stb of centre and then mount the bailer in the centre. Apparently helps it all run straight. Never seen that before, any ideas. I guess he should know he builds and races them. Your thoughts please.

I will get some pictures over the weekend and post them, you can both point me from them!

And no i am not from Essex, just residing hear for the last few years and the forthcoming future. Tiptree in fact, the place the quality Jam comes from. Originally from a small place called Brookmans Park, a couple of miles south of Welwyn Garden City/Stevenage

Andy Payne is about 2 miles down the road so very handy for hints/tips machining and tuned pipes.

The windamer thing sounds fun, when and what?

Regards

Simon ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 22, 2007, 09:55:32 PM
Hi Simon
Paul's last race was Bristol early 2005 where he was unplaced ::)
I would NEVER put a shaft off centre!  In the very early days of multi, Dave Marles used to set up the shaft central, but angled 3 deg to port to counteract the torque. I was one who followed suit. Trouble was the drive varied according to the speed so I ended up with unpredictable handling - hence everyone's shafts are now central and dead straight.

What else did Paul tell you ??? ???

Windermere is a 2 day event being held on 22nd and 23rd Sept at Bowness on Windermere.  There are two separate races on either day (one used to be a chase boat event until they slapped a ten mph limit on the lake) :'(  and are great fun.  There is usually some sort of social event on the Saturday evening or a barby after the racing then off for some serious hangover creation ;)
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 22, 2007, 09:57:12 PM
hi mate i have heard of putting the prop to the side a bit but 10 mm is a lot id stick with dead centre or at the most maybe 2 mm off.id put the bailer to one side of the shaft so basicly id do it oposite of what hes saying .ive never seen or heard of anyone putting it 10 mm off centre, 10 mm up from the v yes.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 22, 2007, 09:59:15 PM
I was kinda worried when he said it, you have confirmed my thoughts.

I will go down the conventional route.

Thanks again! :o
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 22, 2007, 09:59:35 PM
i rest my case lol ;D
seems danny was typing at the same time as me lol.i forgot to say i might pay a visit to windermere for the race meet as a spectator .mines a pint by the way ;D.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 22, 2007, 10:08:46 PM
Mart - only 'A' pint - I'll put you in with the juniors then ;D ;D
(if you come, I'll buy you one!!!!)
Danny 
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 22, 2007, 10:36:57 PM
Mart - only 'A' pint - I'll put you in with the juniors then ;D ;D
(if you come, I'll buy you one!!!!)
Danny 
Only one?and i thought we were mates lol  ;D,a few might be doable as we might be staying the weekend as we do a bit of camping in the lakes with the kids.depends if the missus is feeling generous lol.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 22, 2007, 10:42:05 PM
It's official then - Sept 22nd is the "Lunatic" fringe of Mayham's 'get together' ;D
Even my BOAT can outdrink yours ;D ;D ;D
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: glennb2006 on March 22, 2007, 11:17:16 PM
Sounds like Windermere is going to be busy Danny!!

Beer racing sounds good, that's something I have a lot of experience of, slightly off centre seems to ring a bell when it comes to drinking....

Maybe a new build thread would be good for this one 2772e? What do you think?

Glenn
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 23, 2007, 07:50:50 PM
New Build post on the Makara!

As requested

Regards

Simon ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 25, 2007, 08:02:10 PM

New engine and modified flywheel received yesterday and refitted to the boat.

New tuned pipe fitted and plumbed in.

Will be testing next weekend

Regards
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 25, 2007, 08:14:52 PM
Very neat looking.
Good luck testing.
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 26, 2007, 11:36:48 AM
Dont forget the video camera Simon,by the way check out my boat thread i juts finnished painting it!!. ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 26, 2007, 09:38:56 PM
Mart,

I have got about 10 minutes of my cat and a mates mono (tuned and set up perfectly) but unsure how to post it. Any guidance?

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 27, 2007, 12:55:45 AM
not a clue mate all i normally do is post it to utube or putfile then link to it in here or wherever!!.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 30, 2007, 10:35:38 PM
After three nights mucking around with the video, finally managed to get it up and running.

Click and enjoy!

Still in standard trim, fingers crossed for the sea tests tomorrow, with the bolt on go faster bits!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT_Yu0fuX14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT_Yu0fuX14)

Regards

Simon

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 30, 2007, 10:57:05 PM
Well done Colin and good camerawork ;D
Runs nice and flat, should be able to cope with much rougher water.  What's the go faster bits you're putting on?
Bit of cavitation on hard lefts, but that's to be expected - they're not designed to turn left that quickly ;D
What resolution did you shoot the video at?
You'll have to give a 'masterclass' on the video posting side ;)
Good luck - now get on with the other ;)  ;D
Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 30, 2007, 11:02:58 PM
Thanks Danny,

Who is Colin? ???

Video was shot normal and works fine on the big screen, i think it is reduced for the website to save space?

The cat was with the standard Kyosho GS21 engine and a baked bean can exhaust! ;D

Now we have the STS 28 and a tuned stealth pipe, new bearings in the outdrive and ballraced tube, a couple of new props to try at the lake and we will see what happens.

Bet i break it! :o

Video is actually about 10 minutes long but had to reduce it. Do you a deal, you teach me how to race, i teach you how to video!

Regards

Simon :D :D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 30, 2007, 11:11:15 PM
First you have to teach me how to remember names (or even look at the bottom of your post!) - sorry SIMON :-[ :-[ :-[

I bet you'll notice the difference with the new engine - and so will that weedy 40 in the video showing off ;D

Danny

Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 31, 2007, 05:17:22 PM
Simon get that .28 in it then it will really move ,i tested my boat today hehe runs nice water was really rough 6" chop on the small pond next to the big lake so had to use the small pond as the lake was like 2 foot chop scarey lol.im posting a short vid clip of it now.
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on March 31, 2007, 08:17:54 PM

Success at the lake, i think!  ???

A gentle run round for the first tank, swapped the plug for a #8 filled her up again and sent her out. And there she stayed, stalled and no wind, 10 minutes!

You know that feeling you get, waiting for her to float back in and shes looking deeper in the water, that sinking feeling!  :o

So she gets about 10 yards from the bank and the stern goes under. Back to the bank 1/2 hour to get her dry and running again, put the old plug back in and off we go again, various adjustments and changes to the mixture and shes flying. A few more turns on the trim tabs and the leg and i think we cracked it.

Next time we will have a crack at adjusting the pipe length. And some video!

Thanks for the pointer on the STS engine, sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet, and the tuned pipe front Andy Payne.

Regards

Simon

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 31, 2007, 08:36:59 PM
Simon,
The indespensable aid for every IC owner - cut down fishing rod, reel, 50 yds of 15 lb line and a tennis ball ;D

Glad you got it sorted. Always good to test the seal on the radio box ;D ;D
Mart's video looks good. We'll have to get him in competitions ;D

Just to show - you're never too old to be stupid - I tested the geared 3.5, no problems, tried a CMB pipe, good results.
Swapped 3.5 boat on stand for 7.5
- would it h**l as start.
Nearly an hour! 
Tried everything, eventually thought 'sod it' and was just packing up when I noticed the starter connected to the battery, red to neg (I should point out that I connect the starter in reverse for the geared motor so that I can still use the starter the 'right way round') - I had forgotten to swap the clips over for the straight drive and had been trying to start it in REVERSE :o :o :-[ 
Swapped the leads over and away it when first time!! - doh!

Danny


Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: w3bby on March 31, 2007, 09:37:41 PM
Swapped the leads over and away it when first time!! - doh!
Aaaaaahhhh, a Simpsons moment  ;D
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: omra85 on March 31, 2007, 11:03:36 PM
And who hasn't refitted a direct drive engine, fixed everything in securely, looked around .....and found the starter belt lying on the bench ::)
After 20 years - I did it again when I got home today!!

Brain to rear end - "No this isn't working - lets swap back"

I'm safer on "where's this then"

Danny
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on March 31, 2007, 11:07:19 PM
Danny thats funny dohh ;D,Simon im glad you liked the sts engine i told you it was a good one,i bet she moves well when you get it dialed in.i dont think ill be racing Danny cant afford it and i doubt the missus will let me travel the country to race the boat either so your safe lol  ;).ive been grinning all day long  ;D the boat runs sweet  :).
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: 2772e on April 01, 2007, 09:41:45 AM
Got the cut down broom handle, fishing reel and squash ball. Dont go out without one.

But lost the ball!! ???

I will put some of those rubber thingy's on the rudder struts and have another look at the self bailer, seems to be working in reverse!

I need to get one of those small speed guns so i can check how fast she goes! ;)
Title: Re: Upgrade Help Neede
Post by: martno1fan on April 30, 2007, 09:36:57 AM
forget the cat simon just saw your makara, absolutely brilliant video she looks very fast and stable,wait till you hit some waves though i dont think youll be going that fast hehe  ;D.have you played with the trim of the strut yet or the tabs? looks to be running a little deep at the stern maybe.im sure she can run flatter if you play with setup and she will go even faster,looks great though.now i want a zen to stick in mine  ;).