Model Boat Mayhem

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: Patrick Henry on April 07, 2011, 08:51:38 AM

Title: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 07, 2011, 08:51:38 AM
Anyone got a copy of the drawing as supplied for a Darnell Biber...scan, photocopy, original? It's mainly the rudder and dive plane instructions I'm in need of, how it goes together and connects up, etc. Photos would be great as well if possible.

All costs reimbursed, naturally...


Ta



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 07, 2011, 10:05:40 AM
You ought to have a chat with Kevin, who posts on here as 'Hollowhornbear' (he of disappearing sub).

He's making the same boat, and doing a good job too. He's rebuilt the conning tower from plasticard, as the Darnell one was a bit out for his liking. He's also built a cylinder for all the guts.

Also worth looking at Rick Palumbo's 1/6th scale Neder thread http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29473.0

The torpedoes should bolt straight onto the Biber, assuming it's a true 1/6th scale, and Ricks are nicely detailed as you can see in the pictures on that posting.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 07, 2011, 10:09:13 AM
Oh ta...I'll pm him.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 07, 2011, 08:28:57 PM
Unfortunately it is not true 1/6 scale calculates at about 1 to 5.7 scale in other words awkward.
will look out the drawings in the next few days.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 07, 2011, 08:30:19 PM
Thanks Kev, much appreciated.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:19:56 PM
pictures for you freshly taken.
(http://)
(http://s2.postimage.org/1t8zk7uxw/biber1_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t8zk7uxw/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:21:49 PM
(http://)
(http://s2.postimage.org/1t92vajxg/biber_648_x_486.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t92vajxg/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t94itwf8/biber3_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t94itwf8/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t966d8x0/biber4_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t966d8x0/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t97twles/biber5_450_x_600.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t97twles/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:24:47 PM
some more

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t9eg1zdw/biber2_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t9eg1zdw/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t9jeo0v8/biber5_450_x_600.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t9jeo0v8/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t9oda2ck/biber6_450_x_600.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t9oda2ck/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t9q0teuc/biber7_450_x_600.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t9q0teuc/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1t9zy1ht0/biber8_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1t9zy1ht0/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 08, 2011, 03:26:49 PM
That looks very nice Kev...very nice indeed. How have you organised the internal linkages?


Here's my wtc so far...



Thanks ever so much mate, I owe you one. A large one... :-))
(http://s2.postimage.org/1tavd936s/Image027a.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1tavd936s/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:27:30 PM
and a couple of the WTC

(http://s2.postimage.org/1tajshnqc/wtc_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1tajshnqc/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1taqen1pg/wtc1_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1taqen1pg/)

hope they help, will look out the drawings and instructions. early next week.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:30:39 PM
best i can do for internal links, pics wise anyway
(http://s2.postimage.org/1tbiiry3o/biber10_600_x_450.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1tbiiry3o/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 08, 2011, 03:31:44 PM
Terrific mate, they will help a lot. It's really the internal links to the rudder and plane that I need instructions on...the rest of it isn't too bad.

Thanks again...



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 08, 2011, 03:39:16 PM
will try and sketch some thing up, you'll need a 90 degree bell crank for the dive plane.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 08, 2011, 03:40:41 PM
Ok mate, that would be a great help...another little job for my tame engineer, by the sounds of things.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: ACTion on April 08, 2011, 06:19:05 PM
Neat installation, Mr Uggett. Just don't forget to remove the cardboard packing from around the heatsinks, and follow the instructions about not letting the pairs of heatsinks on the P93 touch each other. With that motor you could almost leave them off the ESC, but with no info on the pump current then best leave P93 alone.
DM
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Martin [Admin] on April 08, 2011, 06:34:30 PM
Very neat installation.   :-))

Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 08, 2011, 06:38:14 PM
Well, thank you gentlemen...most kind of you to say so.

The Action units will be left minus the cases to save room, and fear not DM...I'll not alter anything. End caps should be done tomorrow, then I crack on.

Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: ACTion on April 08, 2011, 07:51:25 PM
The Action units will be left minus the cases to save room
Not recommended, Richard. This will leave the copper track (underside) of the units unprotected and therefore more susceptible to short-circuiting. Only leave the cases off if you really  have no alternative.
DM
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 08, 2011, 07:58:41 PM
Duly noted boss...perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. The units will be in the bottom of the cases, albeit trimmed down somewhat...because they are in a tube, they fit on the tray ok, but as the tube's diameter decreases at the top of it, the cases are too high and foul the tube sides. By trimming the case bottoms down a touch, I can get things to fit as in the photo. I was going to fit some of the units on the top and some under the tray, but the space underneath is reserved for the ballast tank, so that idea went out of the window.

Am I ok to stick the circuit boards into the case bottoms with double sided tape...ie, servo tape?


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2011, 06:05:48 PM
What will you be using to pinch off the hose from the pump, or are you using a peristaltic?
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 09, 2011, 06:09:15 PM
Nothing...and no.

It's a reversible pump...pump in/pump out.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2011, 06:23:54 PM
Unless the tank is vented e.g. not pressurized, the boat won't hold it's trim, as gear pumps leak and air pressure will push the water out. You'll be going up and down like a lavatory seat. If you want a simple solution get a peristaltic, that will work perfectly, but I'd recommend you also fit some sort of mechanical failsafe to avoid over pressure. The TT Neptune has pressure switch inline, which shuts the controller down once a certain pressure is reached. You can also get these from Norbert Bruggen as he uses them in his Delta sub kit.

Either that or make a small pinch valve. I passed details of small pinch valve I made for the Holland on to Kevin, it uses a small 9 gram servo, so it's small (didn't have room for normal size servo). Nigel had fitted a clippard valve originally which worked, but they're designed for gas not water, and the iron core is exposed to the water, so it was corroding.

The other option is a festo ball valve. I didn't have room for one of these, but they work very well. You have to modify the servo for 180 degree rotation and make a custom arm for the servo.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 09, 2011, 06:38:51 PM
I'll not be needing to take on a lot of water, so the pump won't really be working under that much pressure...I've tried the system and it works very well. I'm guessing that I'll only be filling the tank to approx 1/3rd of it's capacity, so I don't really want to add technical adornments....peristaltic pumps, valves etc. At the moment...

The Biber sits pretty low in the water to start with, so I only need to submerge to decks awash and then dive the boat from there...a sort of hybrid system.
 
A failsafe is a good idea in case of the pump jamming in the 'on' position....I'm working on one at the moment, based on a microswitch that will be tripped if the bag overfills  and cuts the power to the pump.



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2011, 07:06:57 PM
Well the Holland only has a very small ballast tank as the boat has very little freeboard, and it compresses the air into the main hull (dry hull) which is quite a large volume, so the pressure isn't high. Yet it wouldn't maintain trim at all with a partially leaking clippard valve. The bag was split too- so even less pressure!

Have you tried this system enclosed in the cylinder?
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 09, 2011, 07:28:21 PM
Well, mine is a bag in a half round tube inside the cylinder...does that make sense?

It worked fine on bath tests....
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2011, 07:58:46 PM
You're pumping water into a bag and that is constricted by a half round pipe enclosure. The air in the cylinder will be compressed as the bag fills. But this will push water out through the pump until the pressure equalizes.

If you want to do a simple test, grab a mouthful of water a blow it through a tube connected to the pump- you'll see it trickles out through the other side of the pump. Now an average fit person can only develop 1-1.5psi, and I'm asthmatic so my lungs aren't quite tip-top. You don't need to put much effort in BTW.

What's the size of tank in relation to the cylinder?


Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 09, 2011, 08:49:36 PM
Approx 2/3rds of the cylinder length, and half the diameter.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2011, 08:58:12 PM
So assuming you are only going to fill up a third of that you're looking at between 1.5-2 psi. If you fill it completely nearer to 5 psi. I would fit a valve, but it's your build.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 09, 2011, 09:59:11 PM
We seem to have wandered off topic...I only wanted a drawing for the Biber!
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: ACTion on April 09, 2011, 11:06:31 PM
Am I ok to stick the circuit boards into the case bottoms with double sided tape...ie, servo tape?
Rich
Better than nowt, but don't write the word "warranty" large and loud anywhere....................... %) (Just joking, Rich)
DM
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 10, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
As if I would, chief... O0
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 09:17:03 AM
It all fits...just.

The space to the rear of the motor is reserved for the two mini servos to actuate the torpedo release mechanisms.


(http://s1.postimage.org/2edm3wmys/Image037.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2edm3wmys/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 12, 2011, 10:20:39 AM
hi Rich,
will be hunting out the drawings, latter.
seeing you mention torpedo release, you do know their nearly 3" in diameter and not the 2" mouldings supplied.
putting it mildly their HUGE!!!
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 10:24:43 AM
Mornin' Kev...

Yes mate, Alf Blake is making them for me...they will release and drop, then off they will go in a straight line. They will have a power on/off button mounted in the nose, so when they hit a target it cuts the power off to the motor.


Thanks for helping out with the drawings, much appreciated..

Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 12, 2011, 10:44:55 AM
Oh no, not another king size torpedo wielding lunatic! Had enough of that with Dave Wright punching holes with his silicone bronze tipped WMD's (weapons of miniature destruction) at last years Summer Dive-in, and they were half the size. I've heard a whisper that Ramesh is planning counter-measures......
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 10:47:15 AM
These aren't really(?)that dangerous...although with Alfie wielding the lathe, anything can happen. They are only surface running though...



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 12, 2011, 10:50:14 AM
so were Dave Wrights we thought. and they punched a nice hole in ramesh' typhoon!
King Size not the words KONG size more like they'll be close to the size of my elusive disappearing Seawolf! but cool 8)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 10:52:17 AM
Well, you know what they say..."man with big torpedoes should be kept clear of...."



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 12, 2011, 11:00:05 AM
to help with the detailing, i suggest you get hold of a set of John Lambert's drawing 3 sheets.
http://www.lambert-plans.com/ (http://www.lambert-plans.com/)
click warships then submarines scroll down.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 11:02:56 AM
Got them already Kev....a nice man sent me a set. He's a very nice man.

A very very nice man.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 12, 2011, 11:16:00 AM
Well, you know what they say..."man with big torpedoes should be kept clear of...."

Rich

That reads a bit like a euphemism.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 12, 2011, 11:26:25 AM
Language, Timothy!



Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 09:08:53 AM
Kevin is right, the torpedoes are big...

The one in the pic is 2.75" in diameter, which is still 0.25" too small. Off to B&Q later today...

Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 14, 2011, 09:32:54 AM
I know, had some finger slippage earlier scale if i calculated correctly is 1:6.8 or at least measuring my mouldings it is! this makes the torps 75mm or approxiamately 3" in dia.
not sure i'd want one of those running loose. not to mention the trim changes when launched. from the info available on the web, this was a problem as they used to pop to the surface on after launching the torps, were they where then sunk by surface fire from the ships they were attacking.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 09:36:35 AM
That may well be a problem Kev, but at least I can claim it's a perfectly scale manoeuvre...
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Subculture on April 14, 2011, 12:42:02 PM
It'll run a lot better minus the torpedos- it's like strapping a couple of 1/96th scale nukes each side of the hull- lot of drag.

I like the Italeri box art for this boat, looks like an underwater tiger. Not sure how authentic that colour scheme is, but I think it's nicer than boring old grey.

(http://s2.postimage.org/lccovbfo/Italeri_UBoat_Biber.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lccovbfo/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 12:46:17 PM
It's very authentic...see pic.

Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 14, 2011, 07:42:54 PM
how about this one?
(http://s2.postimage.org/p7esmu90/red_biber.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p7esmu90/)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 07:46:42 PM
Well, it's certainly....different. I wonder what the rivet counters would make of THAT?
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 14, 2011, 07:59:42 PM
What can they say photographic evidence, proves it exists. Would make seeing it submerged easier( before you chip in Andy) :-)
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 08:02:49 PM
Well, that's true...

No, please don't tempt me any further...
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: john s 2 on April 14, 2011, 08:58:21 PM
Dont know how much this will help but Salvage squad restored one of these little beasties.Just go onto
youtube tap in Salvage squad, and look for midget submarine. Its an interesting film. Bit dramartized for tv
Hope this helps John.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 14, 2011, 10:01:25 PM
Thanks John, haven't seen that for a while...very interesting, as you say.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 15, 2011, 11:58:54 AM
all info foumd and in the post.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 15, 2011, 12:26:00 PM
Kev...you are a darlin', many thanks mate.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 15, 2011, 02:32:38 PM
not sure i like to be called a darling :embarrassed: people may start talking especially on here.
but your welcome you should hopefully have it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 15, 2011, 04:14:32 PM
Kev, you're a an lov swee very nice man.

Thanks again, mate..


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 15, 2011, 04:15:23 PM
Kev, you're a an lov swee very nice man.

Thanks again, mate..


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 15, 2011, 04:15:52 PM
What happened there?
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 18, 2011, 12:43:45 PM
Kev...you are a true gentleman, mate. A large envelope just dropped through the letterbox....I'll get the drawing copied tomorrow(library is closed on Mondays...)and get the stuff posted back to you.

Many thanks mate...much, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 18, 2011, 09:19:30 PM
no problem, glad to help. any more pics of yours or are you too busy with your new toy.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 18, 2011, 09:21:20 PM
I'll do some more pics SAP, tomorrow it's off to my tame engineers to get the rudder posts made up. He's a handy man...
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: hollowhornbear on April 18, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
like to see details of torps when they're available. not sure wether to go for torps on mine or not.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 18, 2011, 09:51:19 PM
As soon as the tube size is sorted, I'll get them off to Alfie and aks him to take a step by step photo build of them....if you remember seeing DW's torps on his Seehund, these will be fairly similar in design.
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 19, 2011, 02:50:25 PM
All copied Kev...pm your address and I'll post them back to you.


Rich
Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 22, 2011, 03:05:18 PM
The wtc is now completed and it fits...and it works. The end caps are on their way back to Paul H to have 1mm shaved off all round, they were just a touch too big.

I was going to install a 12v 4.5a/h gel cell up in the bows, but it didn't fit (grrr!) so I've ordered a 12volt 3700a/h nicad pack specially made to fit the space available.

Flood holes are drilled, shaft is temporarily fitted, so next job is to make a start on the detailing of the conning tower, finish off the 'scopes, and then make up the few bits on the deck.


(http://s1.postimage.org/2xe5nkh38/DSCI0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2xe5nkh38/)

I think I've worked out how to release the torpedoes, but that entails much brass work, so there's a job for my tame engineer. A friend in Bristol is getting the metal work that supports the rudder and rear dive plane made up for me, and as you know, Alfie is going to make the torpedoes operational.

Without the help of Alfie, Andrew Gray and his friend Terry, Dave at ACTion Electronics, Kevin Coombs, Ramesh, Andy Lawrence and Andy Oakley I wouldn't have even got this far with the build...I thank you all for your advice, assistance and hard work on my behalf.


Title: Re: Darnell Biber midget sub
Post by: Patrick Henry on April 24, 2011, 01:49:13 PM
It's too hot to go sailing thisarvo, I have trouble drawing breath out there when it's hot like this, so I've been building some of the detail on the Biber's conning tower...




(http://s4.postimage.org/1kq2ux7c4/DSCI0009.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1kq2ux7c4/)



(http://s4.postimage.org/1kq7tj8tg/DSCI0014.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1kq7tj8tg/)