Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: Bryan Young on April 08, 2011, 06:09:44 pm

Title: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 08, 2011, 06:09:44 pm


   
The theft, discovery and rebuild of a trawler.


Perhaps it’s just me, but I find that the hardest part of writing anything is the “beginning” and the “ending”.
Apart from the pair of Cable Repair ships (“Norseman” and “Recorder”, although 2 entirely different ships) I’ve always tried to build something “different” as a next model. OK, I know and appreciate that some modellers prefer to build particular types of ship. Some build Ferries of one sort or another. Some stick to Fishing Boats, others to RNLI boats and so on. No harm in that. But I prefer having a go at disparate types of ships. Generally speaking this means that I’ve got to learn a lot when the projected model is out of my professional “comfort zone”. Particularly when I decided to build a Trawler. Also, I’m not particularly interested in very modern vessels as I find them less visually appealing than vessels of a past age.
Having recently completed the marathon build of s/s “Hunan” (R.I.P.) in mid 1997, I was casting around for something else to build. Then another of Mr.Pottingers’ plans appeared as a “Modellers Draught” in the December 1977 issue of Model Shipwright. A very traditional Steam Trawler named “Bayflower” that had been built in 1933. Everything about this boat intrigued me. First was the fact that modelling her took me away from the more “mainstream” stuff I’d been building. Then was the realisation that although over the years I’d seen many of these things but still hadn’t much of a clue as to how they went about their business. Of course I knew the basics of trawling, what lights they had and all that. But about their day to day work I was quite ignorant. In fact my experience of trawlers up to then had been more of annoyance and exasperation than anything else. They always seemed to operate with a remarkable disregard for anything else that just happened to be on the same bit of ocean as themselves. Absolutely no regard or adherence to the chiselled in stone “Rules Of The Road”. At times, being a “driver” of perhaps a fully loaded troopship, these things would suddenly alter course to put both ships in imminent danger of collision. Heart attack time. And they never seemed to be operating without others of their ilk meandering haphazardly about the place. It’s all very well saying that “proper” ships should give fishing vessels a wide berth, indeed the “Rules” state that “when possible” that should be done, but the “Rules” also state that a vessel engaged in fishing should not hamper the safe navigation of other vessels in a recognized seaway, But that just isn’t possible all the time. A good example here would be the North Sea. Even in the 1970s the North Sea was laid out (on paper!) with a sort of road map. These “roads” were passage areas that had been swept of WW2 minefields. And very few “deep sea” ships would be willing to risk traversing an unswept area. So from a navigational point of view these vessels could be a major hazard. On the other hand, on a more person to person level we always got along with them…..especially during times when we would just be stooging around in a 30,000ton tanker or ammo ship and the notion of some fresh fish seemed a good idea. Amazing how much fish could be “bought” for a couple of bottles of whisky!
On other occasions when we were just meandering a bit aimlessly off the North coast of N.Ireland local fishing boats would offer to “trade” crabs and lobsters for some fresh vegetables. A sack of potatoes would be swapped for 2 sacks of large crabs. A sack of mixed veg and a bottle of whisky would result in a sack of large lobsters. Happy days.
    But none of that would ever excuse their utter disregard for others. Even when they weren’t actually fishing they would invariably show the lights or day signals that said they were, honestly, fishing. Mind you, this was a mind-set on their part. Even in port their navigation lights and fishing signals would be left on and showing. A law unto themselves.
    So “Bayflower” caught my interest.
I’d love to be able to reproduce Mr.Pottingers’ article and description here, but I’m not going to push my luck against any copyright legislation!
“Bayflower” was just over 150ft long, and Mr.Pottingers’ plans, if adhered to, would result in a model of around 30”, which is basically around 1:50 scale. And that scale is what I generally use for “proper” ships. But 30” was just too small, so I decided on 1:36 scale (about 50% larger). So somewhere in the region of 4ft. The plans published in Model Shipwright are actually pretty good if 1:50 scale is what the builder wants. I built the hull (GRP) directly from these plans using my invaluable proportional dividers. But to build at the larger scale, more information was needed. Very conveniently the photo accompanying the article was sourced as being supplied by the Hull Maritime Museum. It didn’t take me long to buy (remarkably cheaply) copies of the original builders plans….and what a wealth of detail they showed. Perfect. Or was it? All the details gleaned from both sets of plans only went to show how little I knew about the actual operation of these ships.
More learning required!
Fortunately for me, within Tynemouth Model Boat Club we had 2 ex-trawlermen. One was a guy called Jimmy Cullen (more on him later) who’d actually been the Ch.Engineer on this class of ship, and Brian Chambers (Brian_c on this forum).
What a wealth of information these 2 supplied. Brian loaned me all sorts of books that were mainly about the people, but every photo had little details of the boat somewhere in the background….more than useful. Another little “oddball” was the use of cow-hides strung up around the working areas. This all got stranger and stranger. In fact the only thing I could find in common with my sort of sea-going life was that we both used the sea to float on.
Jimmy Cullen was very much an old-fashioned trawlerman. Blunt to the point of rudeness without realising it. But when approached he could be a mine of willing information. He knew these things inside out. Any little query I had about fixtures and fittings he would delight in improving my education….in the broadest Geordie accent imaginable, complete with the adjectival epithets without which no seamans’ vocabulary would be complete. But even I was now and again reduced to asking for some “clarification”. These “lessons” were mainly filled with sentences comprising words beginning  with an “f”. But remarkably descriptive for all that.
I really don’t know how old he was, but one day he asked me to walk around the lake with him and told me he’d got the “Big C” and as he hadn’t much longer to go, he was going to live with his sister(?) in Scarborough, but could I send him some photos of the model? He got them just before he died. A lovely man….when approached in “his way”.
And so my education in the ways of trawlermen progressed. I suppose I was getting a feel for both the trawlers and the people who suffered on them by now. In point of fact, I’m not generally sympathetic to the woes of my fellow man, but I did feel a little softening of the heart when (metaphorically) sitting on Cullens knee listening to his tales. He died in 1998, but just now and again, I miss him.
Alas, the various (on film) photos I took of the original build of “Bayflower” have been lost. Not to worry. The fog will clear eventually.
Just after I completed the model (2001?), “Bayflower” was entered into the competition section of the Harrogate show (scratch built section) …the organisers of which immediately stuffed the model into the “Kit Built” section. Shrug shoulders, but inwardly seethe. This began a long running and on-going saga of disagreements between me (and with the support of other TMBC members) and the judging at Harrogate.
But life’s too short for all that.
As I’d had a very pleasant year sailing “Bayflower” it was time to consider another model. So I began building RFA “Gold Ranger”. Not part of this tale.
It was my practise to keep 2 models in my trailer housed within my main garage / workshop. Not attached to the house, but only about 30ft away at the end of the back garden.
Then it was raided. Patently by someone who knew my layout and what I had in there.
Both “Hunan” and “Bayflower” were taken. As were more or less all of my tools and equipment including all my batteries and radio gear. This could not have been done by a casual sneak thief. It was by someone who both knew me and had seen my layout.
The phone call to the police resulted in a casual visit 8 hours later by a “community” policeman who, to his credit, did say that this robbery was more serious than had been assumed. Like a total of £30,000 worth of “stuff”. Of which I got £7,500 back from the insurers.
Ever tried insuring a rather valuable model? I could insure a new BMW car for less.
Then came the CID who first of all tried to imply that I’d done it as an insurance scam. Then came the SOCO who did absolutely nothing but shrug his shoulders and go back whence he came. My faith in Britains Finest took a severe nose dive here.
And so it remained. Many fingers were pointed at a club member who I’d had a serious falling out with some months earlier, but it was all circumstantional.
Until.
About 5 years after the event, another club member saw and recognized “Bayflower” for sale in a rather sleazy “antiques” shop on the south side of the Tyne. I went over there and eyeballed it, sure enough…it was my model. For sale at £600.
Off I went to the local Police HQ and explained the situation. These things take time…and yet more time….Eventually 2 young “officers” appeared and said they would “look into it” and I was to be there when they did. Progress!!
The next few minutes or so were rather bizarre.
When the officers asked for the model to be lifted down off its high shelf it needed 2 people to do so. Odd.
On the counter I was asked if I could prove it was mine. No problem. Although the model was wrecked beyond belief, some little catches and so on were still in place. When I began removing the superstructure the shop “owner” tried to stop me by saying it was all fixed down, and it was only a “kit” anyway.
By the time I’d removed the various bits he was looking as decidedly seedy as his shop. Even more so when I showed the so-called “officers” my signed plaque and wiring diagram inside the boat.  Impasse.
The reason it was so heavy was because the idiots hadn’t been able to get at the battery, lead ballast and motor. Even the electronics were still in place and untouched.
     Now, between you me and the gatepost, I’d sort of expected the highly trained custodians of the law to be a bit suspicious by now. At least to demand access to wherever more “stock” would be held. Did they? Did they hell.
In fact they went off to report to HQ for an hour and I was left wondering what on earth was going on.
      I got “Bayflower” back, the “shop” closed down soon afterwards, but sadly,“Hunan” has long since disappeared.
      And so poor “Bayflower” sits, in smashed up bits waiting patiently to be brought back to life.
   
But at the time I was blowed if I was giving in to these low-lifes….so I decided to rebuild her. I couldn’t really face up to rebuilding “Hunan” as I was (and still am after all these years) a wee bit emotional about her. So “Bayflower” Mk 2 was born. This time re-named “James Cullen” after my original mentor.

And now it’s year 2011. The rebuild of “Norseman” is complete and the “General Havelock” has had its damage repaired. Just in time to be entered into the NE Model Boat Show. From all accounts (that I’ve heard, anyway) this may be the last one. Various reasons I suppose, but a shame nonetheless.
So. In the next couple of weeks I shall begin the rebuild of “Bayflower” Mk.1. and hopefully will get her to take her place alongside the “James Cullen”. I will find that day to be more than satisfying. I’ll still miss the “Hunan” though.
I’ll end this “introduction”/ preface with a photo of “Bayflower” in  her “James Cullen” guise. Then I’ll get to the nitty gritty of rebuilding the original…..which I haven’t started as yet.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: john s 2 on April 08, 2011, 08:43:58 pm
A bitter sweet story. The vessel you rebuild will be a tribute to your friends. Sadly there can be a lot of
variation in the way the Police act. Sadly as in your case a lot more could and should have been done to
find the acusued. Having said that even if it went to Court. Justice most likely would not have been carried
out. Nothing can replace the time and effort spent building a model. as in your case all the personal touches
 Thanks for posting John.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 09, 2011, 04:58:13 pm
With the NE Model Boat Show imminent (like tomorrow, Sat 9th April) and 4 of my models being taken there……recurrence of the dreaded gout prevents my personal involvement…..SWMBO and I managed to get the wreck of “Bayflower” into the main workshop / garage.
Do any of you suffer from the occasional bouts of gout? Pointless trying to explain to non-sufferers how painful and debilitating it can be, but I find that it tends to hit after a period of “stress”. But I digress, again.
With the “Bayflower” finally on a workbench I could have a good look at it.
The actual “damage” is more or less repairable given time and the will to do it. But it’s the missing and/or broken up bits that hurts. Stuff that really means re-making.
The foremast is beyond redemption, the pair of derricks aft of the funnel are missing altogether, the trawl gantries may need re-making…as will 2 of the missing otter boards. The decent rigging is non-existent and will have to be totally replaced. And all sorts of other stuff that’ll probably take me the rest of this year to put right. At the moment all I feel is an odd mixture of anger and sorrow. But I suppose that when I get my head back in order I’ll be able to be a bit more dispassionate about it all, and at least attempt to get her back to her original condition. I wouldn’t feel so bad about all this if the damage had been done by me dropping the thing or something! 
     However. The ignorant low-lifes certainly hadn’t realised how much of the model I’d made to be removeable, so my first job has been to strip it down even further before cleaning off the accumulated grime. I gave the deck areas a quick waft over with a soft brush just to find out how much else was damaged that I hadn’t noticed. She must have had a couple of hefty whacks on the bulwarks as a fair few of the bulwark stays are missing, roughly glued back in the wrong places or just loose. The rails and stanchions around the foc’sle head are buckled and bent. Nice guy though he is, I hope I don’t have to get Jim (Lane) to supply me with a new set! I’m not going to touch the superstructure until I get the deck areas, foremast and rigging re-done…..I hope I’m wrong but I can already sense Xmas approaching as a timescale for that little lot. I’d forgotten that I’d originally made the foremast out of interlocking brass tubing. Although I had vaguely wondered why and how the thing was so badly bent and creased. The “Cullen” version has a wooden foremast, so I may do the replacement in timber as well.
The 1st pic is before the broken and deliberately removable parts were put to one side.
2nd is after stripping down….and the bent mast.
3rd is the full deck showing all the means of access into the hull…just to give an idea how much importance I place on “access”.
           I must beg some sort of pardon from you at this point! I’m still getting used to my new camera and it’s taken me awhile to realise why the “crispness” I’m used to with my posted pictures isn’t quite there. It’s because I’m also pretty busy doing a rather large portfolio of my local area from the old Smiths Docks all the way up the coast to St. Marys’ island…..a “then and now” sort of thing comparing views of over 100 years ago to the same viewpoint as today. So the camera has been set to produce high definition shots capable of printing out at A2 size….all the ones I’ve put on here so far started at over 3mb each, and had to be reduced to the 161kb the forum demands. Sorry! Must try harder.
     Anyway. The next stage is to give the whole area up to where the red deck begins a good seeing to, and get it all nice and clean again before re-building starts.
Just a reminder that this model is at 1:36 scale and is in the region of 54” x 9.5” weighing just over 50lb when batteries and ballast are added.
 Scrubbing decks time.


































Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 19, 2011, 06:56:28 pm
Although I’ve just spent the better part of a year getting “Norseman” back into reasonable condition, “Bayflower” is a completely different “project”. “Norseman” suffered her damage due to being stowed in an unsuitable place. Distressing yes, but there was no “hands on” third party involvement. The situation with “Bayflower” is completely different, all the damage being caused by a third party. I left you last time saying it was “scrubbing decks” time. A euphanism I’m afraid. I used a complete squirty spray thing of “Mr.Muscle” and 2 similar things of fresh water just to get the grime off the thing (not including the superstructure). “Things” began to be a bit clearer after that. The grime accumulated during her period of incarceration relaxed its hold on other parts, so even more damage was unveiled.
       By now I’m beginning to realise that repairing and rebuilding this model could well be more difficult that building the whole thing from new. But that’s not the point, is it. The planked decks hadn’t suffered too much, and now look pretty good. So that’s a relief. The bulwark stays had obviously been seriously thumped…so re-attaching them took a couple of days. I had thought of “doing” the gantries next, but as I haven’t really thought that through yet I’ve decided to concentrate on the foc’s’le head. Alas, the rails were beyond redemption and will need to be replaced with a new set. Courtesy of Jim Lane. I need only 24 of them, so it’s not exactly going to send me into penury.
One of the things I’m going to miss out this time around (maybe) is the very fiddly method I used to show the top handrail larger than the lower ones. Standard shipbuilding practice. My earlier method, done because I didn’t know any better, was to get stanchions with a pointy top rather than a hole. Then I would get a length of alloy tubing and (very) carefully drill holes so the pointy bit of the stanchion would fit into them. This now seems to me to be a waste of time. I’m wondering if just using stanchions with a hole at the top to take a standard wire but overlaid with a carefully cut length of tubing slid over the top wire between stanchions would be better and stronger. I’ll give it a try, anyway.
I post the plan of the focsle head just to show that the windlass for the single anchor (p 5) was actually set slightly to stbd of the centre line….just in case you were wondering!
     I also think that I won’t be doing all that much re-painting. Touching up some obvious places, but let’s face it. These vessels weren’t exactly maintained to P&O standards. But it’s all starting to become another learning process…..one I could well do without, but you know my reasons. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 19, 2011, 07:02:59 pm
An observation re. the plans. The plan view shows that the forward fairleads were of the 2 roller type, but the side view shows plain cleats. I don't know which was correct, so I fitted the roller sort. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: john s 2 on April 19, 2011, 07:08:10 pm
Im sure that in your skilled hands she will end up as good as new. Abeit with a bit more history unfortunately
John.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 20, 2011, 06:55:55 pm
Another day at “the office”. This morning (and all day) I’ve had the Siren type “foghorn” on the end of Tynemouth Pier giving out its mournful 5 seconds “on” and 5 seconds “off” wail. I’m fortunate in that I live a couple of miles away from it…but for those unfortunates who live only a few hundred yards away …….? Living beneath one of these things (as aboard a ship) is another word for purgatory.
       I was going to tackle the broken gantries today, but I wimped out. So I gave the “fish ponds” a severe “looking at”. Two reasons. The first was because some of the boards were missing, but secondly because a lot of the rigging from the gantries gets very close to the pond boards, which would make fitting the boards after doing the rigging pretty difficult. As I write this I can still hear Jimmy Cullens voice speaking to me in what could well have been Swahili for all I knew. That man could have given the drunken priest in “Father Ted” a comprehensive course in the use of expletives.
When I mentioned the positioning and layout of these “fish ponds” he would do his demented dwarf act and yell at me (in a form of English only known to trawlermen of his vintage) that the boards were only fitted where they could fit. Although the plans shown here look nice and symmetrical it wasn’t necessarily so. So I just put them where they’d fit. You really must understand that throughout the building of this trawler I was spitting into the wind. “Normal” ship-building” practise was no real problem….it was really only the bits that were specific to Side Trawlers that threw me.
      The “holders” of the pond boards I had to make from 1/16” brass channel section with a spur down the centre to fit into the deck. Fortunately these “structures” survived the mis-handling. I still don’t know why a couple of the dividers were made of “rods” and not boards….but Jimmy said that at least 2 of them were always made that way. Again, you may possibly notice that some of the boards are 3 boards high, and others are only 2. I can only assume that the 3 boards were fitted to prevent (hinder) sea water getting down into the hatches. But I don’t really know.
The boards themselves are just simple cut out bits of Obeche, stained (in my case) with Canadian Cedar, plank edges marked with black ball-point and sprayed with matte lacquer. Looks OK to me. The “boards” with rods in them are made of brass. I really must have been keen when I made them. All them little holes, soldering them up. Never again!.
The photos should speak for themselves. They are as of today (20th April 2011). But I suppose that the next nettle to grasp will have to be the forward gantries. Please both wish me luck and bear with me. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 22, 2011, 04:10:21 pm
I don’t know why I kept calling the “gallows” gantries. Just goes to show my on-going ignorance I suppose.
All the drawings (so far) have been portions of Mr.Pottingers plan of the vessel. As I mentioned earlier, my actual model was built using plans from the Hull Maritime Museum but scanning those plans isn’t very convenient. At the moment Mr. Pottingers drawings are more than adequate for my purposes.
Making the sets of gallows was “interesting” to say the least. The straight “upstands” were relatively easy using Plastruct “H” section of a suitable (large) size. The bottoms being carefully cut to the required angles allowing the straight sections to both lean inwards in a fore/aft direction and also to lean outboard. Making the top curved section was more difficult but made easier by drawing out the profile at the scale I needed. I didn’t have a computer etc. to help me in those days. Fitting the middle bit of my fabricated “H” section was more tricky, but by fitting only one half of the arched section the second bit could be fitted later. Doubling plates were “welded” over the joints. It surprised me just how many and varied fittings there are on a gallows, many more than are shown on the enclosed drawings! And how on earth did the odd shaped bracket holding the hanging block (is that why it’s called a gallows?) get to be called a “Norman”? These fisherfolk, apart from talking in a form of English unknown to the rest of us also use familiar words in unfamiliar circumstances. But what’s life without variety.
The “Hanging Blocks” were easier to make than I expected. Once the cheeks were cut out of a heavier grade of Litho plate and the swivel eye and sheave were fitted that was it…didn’t take very long at all.
     Apart from talking about the re-build of this little ship I’m rather hoping that it may all be helpful to anyone at least contemplating scratch building one of these old traditional side trawlers. Even if building from a kit, it may be well worth your while buying a set of original drawings for a similar type. From the kit built models I’ve seen (and some are quite excellent), the fact they are built from a kit possibly means that some details have been omitted…the original plans will guide you on this.
      Now that I’ve managed to put together one of the broken gallows that’ll suffice. The last photo shows a couple of white plasticard doubling plates that I hope will strengthen the repair job. Still need trimming and painting.
     The next task will, I suppose, have to be the foremast.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 22, 2011, 04:13:51 pm
Im sure that in your skilled hands she will end up as good as new. Abeit with a bit more history unfortunately
John.
Sorry for not saying "thanks" sooner. It's not the supposed "skilled hands" that's the problem....it's being sort of limited to the use of one eye! Interesting times for a modeller. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: john s 2 on April 22, 2011, 09:47:13 pm
Thanks Bryan. Like you my eyes are giving trouble. Ive very short sight and Macular Degeneration. When model
making i loose count of how many times i take my classes on and off to see close up. All adds to the fun. Even
worse when i cant find them. John.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 25, 2011, 07:47:52 pm
A change of plan. Jim came up with the new focsle stanchions yesterday (Easter Sunday) so I decided to fit them instead of following “the plan”.
April the 24th. Easter. And it was both hot and sunny. I really can’t remember an Easter when it wasn’t blowing a hooghly and either raining or snowing. Once in a lifetime I suppose. Our sailing lake is only separated from the North Sea by a road and the beach…great for the yachties, but not always so good for the scale thingies. The weather also brought out many visitors….but there was a large “fun run” going on at the time. “Fun Run”? Not many of the hundreds of trotters I saw passing looked like they were enjoying themselves.
     Our (park) lake is for the moment weed free after the industrial scale dredging that took place a couple of months ago….let’s hope that it stays that way. Two very enjoyable hours on the water with “Northumbrian”. So many stops to chat to some of the people who always remember crossing the river on her. All interesting recollections, but always, always was the memory of looking down through an open window into the engine room and watching the man in the big wooden chair controlling the engines.
      But then Jim (Lane) turned up with my stanchions. At first I was a bit nonplussed as they were so much larger than the ones I’d recently removed. Not in length, more in diameter. I must admit to being a bit more than sceptical about these new things. But as always, he’d done his homework and decided that the ones I’d been using on the original were too “spindly”. If you compare the earlier photos with the ones in this post you’ll see what I mean. I still think that they’re a trifle too “fat”, but certainly an improvement on the originals for a 1:32 scale model. As always though, there’s a “downside”. The stanchions in other parts of the model that don’t need replacing are his earlier “spindly” ones. So there’s a contrast. A rather large contrast. I’ve got no intention of replacing the stanchions around the wheelhouse……but the focsle head is (hopefully) far enough away from the wheelhouse to fool the eye a little. I hope so anyway.
     The photos will show that I’ve only “fixed” the starboard side ones. The rails on the port side have to be bent 90*. With multiple rails this has always been a “not desired” job, as I always get into a bit of a tangle. But nobody else is going to do it, so I sort of look forward to an annoying/frustrating few hours.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2011, 02:15:36 pm
Actually, this task wasn’t as awkward/frustrating as I’d feared. The more robust stanchions can withstand a lot more rather robust manhandling than the finer ones that were originally fitted. I really should change all the stanchions on both these trawlers to the larger variety…..but to be honest, I just can’t be bothered. Maybe…someday.
So one coat of matt white followed by one coat of satin white and I can say farewell to the focsle until I get around to the re-rigging.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2011, 03:37:57 pm
Far from being just a stick stuck into the deck, a traditional side trawler foremast had a wealth of “stuff” attached to it. Compared to a general cargo ship anyway.
For a start, the standing rigging (shrouds) were tensioned with deadeyes and had ratlines. One of my least favourite aspects of doing the rigging…..but that’s the penalty for opting to build models “of a certain age” I guess.
They also carried rigging for a steadying sail and all sorts of other gubbins  (harking back to the days of sail) that general freighting ships had long since discarded. But then again the fishing industry was a very conservative (small “c”) one. Even the last of the sidewinders (1960s?) kept many of the features of trawlers built 50 years previously.
    But in one respect, on this occasion I find I have to disagree with Mr. Pottinger. His depiction of the lights carried on the foremast are both wrong and misleading.
Mr.Pottingers plan of the vessel shows 3 “normal” type mast lights. That is, lights that show from ahead to 2 points abaft the beam on either side. Only the lowest of these 3 lights is correct. The top one is a “tri-coloured” lantern, the centre light is an all-round white light. That bottom one is a normal nav. light. The others were only supposed to be shown when actually engaged in fishing….but fishermen being fishermen invariably ignored the law and even sailed into port with the trawling lights ablaze….and then left them on while tied up to a quay. By day they were also required to hoist a basket somewhere near the front of the boat…..that thing was also to be seen flying whilst alongside. They got away with this forever, so why have the Rules? Beats me. It was probably because these polite, well mannered trawlermen  took mild umbrage at being told what was correct and what was incorrect by a stroppy upholder of the law.
     My earlier thoughts on re-making the foremast out of wood were discarded after I chopped out the bent bits of tubing and found replacement bits of tubing. Instead of soldering the new bits into place I’ve used Araldite. Mainly because soldering is a bit “sudden” and I needed time to adjust the structure into it’s more or less correct configuration (i.e. straight and with its bits’n’bobs line up correctly).
     While searching for the original rigging diagram (unsuccessfully) I got to poring over the builders General Arrangement drawing and spotted something I’ve never seen on this sort of drawing before. Normally all the fixtures and fittings are built and fitted in line with detailed specifications as per contract. It really surprised me just how many “things” were just made and fitted “To The Surveyors Satisfaction”. This even included the stepping of the masts. How much simpler life must have been then!
      In the absence of a detailed Rigging Diagram ( the one shown here is Mr.Pottingers slightly simplified version), I’m going to have to refer to and photograph the “James Cullen” rigging next Sunday ‘cos I know I got that more or less correct. So was the original “Bayflower”, but such was the damage that some of the mast fittings were broken off and need to be re-sited as close as possible to the original positions. All very tiresome (and costly!).
       Another thing I missed first time around is the fact that the vessel was 150ft in length. That means she had a mast light on the aftermast. (Vessels of 150 and over had to have 2 mast lights). But that can wait.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: pugwash on April 29, 2011, 04:01:43 pm
Bryan, having looked at the diagram I see there are two preventers shown.  I know what they prevent on a yacht
but what is their purpose on a fishing trawler which has no boom fitted?

Geoff
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2011, 04:41:34 pm
Geoff, if I read you correctly you're referring to the "bag ropes" (?). It appears that they were used to "prevent" the "bag" (i.e. the trawl net, full of fish) from swinging across the deck. Although I've never seen it, I understand that cow hides were strung from these ropes for the same purpose.  How many? Haven't a clue. Where were they kept? Same answer. It was life, Geoff, but not as we knew it. Regards. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: pugwash on April 29, 2011, 06:28:01 pm
Thanks Bryan for shedding light into the darkness

Geoff
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 29, 2011, 07:45:31 pm
We had a single bag rope on the David John A169 but the following photos show what it was used for

(http://s3.postimage.org/1real1mdg/davidjohn1980j.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1real1mdg/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/1reh770ck/davidjohn1981j.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1reh770ck/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/1reki9pc4/davidjohn1981_P.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1reki9pc4/)


Larger trawlers had up to 3 of these ropes per side
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 29, 2011, 07:49:29 pm
Geoff the "preventers" you see are wires attached to the mast and down onto the whaleback. When you take a bag of fish aboard on a boat of the size the Bayflower was it can weigh up to 5 tons and preventer wires were used to make sure the mast didn't come down. On later boats these were substituted by metal poles


(http://s3.postimage.org/1rfri8q6c/davidjohn1981k.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rfri8q6c/)
Even though we had 2 metal supports to our mast we still had 2 preventer cables down onto the bow
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: pugwash on April 29, 2011, 08:05:45 pm
Thanks Dave. Makes my light  weight preventer on the boom seem puny in comparison but it did the same job - to stop the mast
coming down  on a certain point of sail if the the boom swung over uncontrolled..

Geoff
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 30, 2011, 07:12:26 pm
I'm really pleased that Davie Tait has answered a question here.
The plans I have (builders ones) do actually show the preventers/bag ropes attached to the mast shrouds, rather than the mast. I always distrusted this because of the weight and possible velocity of a full "bag" swinging over the deck of a rolling trawler. It would put one heck of a strain on the shrouds if that was the case.
So the sensible answer is to fasten the bag-ropes to the mast, right?
The next bit .....I've been told that the bag-ropes (wires?) were strung with "beads", and not always with cow hides. Is that correct? But I still await some sort of answer as to the purchase, stowage and "fitting" of these cow hides.
These trawler things are so far removed from my experience that I may as well be building a bucket dredger....another ship I know nowt about. But I'm still always willing to learn. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 30, 2011, 07:51:10 pm
That is how they were rigged Bryan , attached to the shrouds then onto the forward Gallows on the old style sidewinders like this with the diesel boats the rope was normally between the gallows and a fixing point on the rail held tight by a small rope to the mast. The beading I think was more just a thick rope bound tightly around the bag cables but if it was beading it would have been wooden or latterly rubber discs threaded onto the wire.

(http://s3.postimage.org/2430u2004/Olivean_GY92.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2430u2004/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/24587unpg/Hauling_4_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/24587unpg/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/245n3os5g/dad_iceland2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/245n3os5g/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/245vddimc/forwardpride2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/245vddimc/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2460bzk3o/forwardpride_A367_model8.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2460bzk3o/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/2468loakk/forwardpride_A367_model7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2468loakk/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/246k6fq10/forwardpride_A367_model3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/246k6fq10/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/246sg4ghw/Ac_Cod_end_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/246sg4ghw/)
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 30, 2011, 08:19:11 pm
Wow! Now I'm beginning to learn something new!
Were all the fish pond boundaries lined with the open rails, or did some of them just have wooden boards as I've been lead to believe?
I take your point about the "beads" being simple windings of old rope. Cheaper than buying something I suppose. But what about those dead cows?
Davie, over the time I've been on this forum I've always respected your depth of knowledge on things "fishing", and I thank you for that.
However, your contributions have been a bit sporadic. Could you not find it in yourself to write some sort of thread on the "ins and outs" of these older forms of trawling? I realise that not many people here are full blown "scratch builders", but at the same time the sort of knowledge that you have could well be invaluable to us in the minority.
A bit like me describing the repair or laying of submarine cables in days of yore....but not quite as far back as Barry M would have you believe! Regards. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 30, 2011, 08:31:31 pm
The cow hides were attached to the bottom of the cod end of the net Bryan , they were used to prevent the net from chaffing and tearing , they were almost uniformly done away with by the late 1960's as nylon twine replaced manilla. They were a bit of a health hazard as well , a few men got infected with anthrax over the years if they let the hides dry out before first use ( they were stored in a preservative to keep them supple , probably formaldehyde !! )

I am happy to help when I can but writing down how each style of fishing boat was laid out and worked would take a long long time ( probably several months of solid work , something I can't do due to not being able to sit for too long at the pc nowadays with my knack'd back ), each boat was different even so called sisterships , each skipper had his own ideas on how the deck should be laid out and how the gear was rigged even amongst the big company boats.

Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: kiwi on April 30, 2011, 08:31:58 pm
Hi,
Bryan, very well said, and I for one would love to see more of the type of thread you have done so very well.
Davie, now about doing as Bryan has suggested. I, and I'm sure others on here, would welcome an in-site to your trawler/fishing world.
How about short snippets on each different area, spread over time. Similar to how Bryan did his reminisences. The end result would be the same, but broken down into managable posts.
You both keep up the good work
cheers
kiwi
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 30, 2011, 08:39:07 pm
Cow hides


(http://s3.postimage.org/24k90l56s/hides1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/24k90l56s/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/24kfmqj5w/hides.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/24kfmqj5w/)

Next 2 show how they were tied to the bottom of the cod end of the net

(http://s3.postimage.org/24knwf9ms/Mending_5_002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/24knwf9ms/)
(http://s3.postimage.org/24kuiknlw/Ac_ccod.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/24kuiknlw/)
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on April 30, 2011, 09:29:32 pm
Right, OK. So if I attach the bag-ropes (loosely) to the gallows ....to allow for the net swing...I should be about right? What's the other end attached to? I'm sorry if I seem to be a bit slow witted here, but your photos have totally changed my perception of "how things were done" back then. Back to square one on the learning curve, I guess. I'm reasonably comfortable with the "hardware" side of things, but the ad-hoc bits of rigging (and some of the reasons for it) still leaves me a bit more than bemused.
I'd really like to get this "Bayflower" re-build as close as possible to the working environment as possible. In the space of one afternoon you've already given me more points to ponder than I had when I first built her! That also gives me a bit more impetus to get it right this time around. Thank you.
I must however, go along with Kiwi, and ask if you'd at least consider doing the odd short article on specific (and obscure) aspects of trawling. It may seem to be simple to you....but not to the rest of us.
When I did my "bit" on submarine cable repair work I was quite surprised that what seemed second nature to me was literally a closed book to those who read it. And the responses were very gratifying. A similar thing from the point of view of a trawlerman would be just as interesting as anything I could write. Regards. Bryan Young.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 30, 2011, 10:24:12 pm
We had a steel ring attached to one of the stringers on the rail that the bag rope was attached to the bigger boats had the same but on some boats the ring was attached to the deck at the base of the rail.

There has to be a little slack in the bag rope but not too much Bryan too much slack and the bag would come aboard too far and too fast which would be dangerous. Some boats had 2 bag ropes some 3.

Your other question about the pond boards has a few different answers. On some boats there was a line of pond boards parallel to the rail set about 2ft inboard down the length of the ponds ( this was to allow for the net to sit there without being in amongst the fish ) , others simply had the pond boards go right out to the rail to maximise the amount of fish they could take onboard. It all depended on the preferences of the skipper.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on April 30, 2011, 10:27:51 pm

(http://s1.postimage.org/2hu8y41xg/forwardpride_A367_guttingcod1960s.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2hu8y41xg/)

That shows how the bag rope was attached to the rail on the 118ft trawler Forward Pride A367 ( my Grandfathers last big boat )
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 01, 2011, 06:07:35 pm
Ah. Right. OK. In my ignorance I thought that the thingy you call "the rail" was just a place to tie the nets to when they weren't being used! I feel like I'm back in an infant school now. Thank you (through gritted teeth!) Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on May 01, 2011, 07:22:45 pm
The rail is just the side of the boat to a fisherman Bryan the bit between the deck and upwards lol , The photo above shows the pond boards on the Forward Pride showing the parallel pond boards to the starboard rail leaving the gap for the net to lie in
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 01, 2011, 08:12:52 pm
Dear heavens. In a way, I wish i'd never asked! But I'll get there....someday,somehow. And when I do, please feel free to do a bit of constructive criticism that will make me feel like the ignoramous that I undoubtably am.......as least as far as trawlers are concerned. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: nhp651 on May 01, 2011, 08:43:46 pm
hi bryan....have a look at the bag ropes on my model of the old steam trawl;er red Falcon.this shows their possitioning.
neil.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 01, 2011, 10:17:44 pm
Neil. Thank you. When I first clicked on to your post I did wonder if somehow you'd got hold of some of my pics! I shall peruse them more closely later. Thanks again for your interest. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: nhp651 on May 01, 2011, 11:07:23 pm
yes, they are similar bryan.think bayflower was built by COOK WELTON AND GEMMELL, of Beverley, as was the Red Falcon.
they had distinctive lines, as did those from Cochranes ofHull, and yet you could tell them apart when put together....i always prefared the CWG ships as they had nicer lines.

my Red Falcon was a larger ship though at 164.4 ft LBP, and 172ft LOA

NEIL
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: nhp651 on May 01, 2011, 11:11:29 pm
As for interest   Bryan........no problems, lifeboats are my love....trawlers are my passion, but don't tell my good lady, lol %% %%
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 04, 2011, 06:09:13 pm
Neil, i've been perusing your pics etc for a few days now. Doing the "compare" bit, I can see some obvious differences (main one being the derrick on the foremast, radar and so on). A major difference would seem to be the diameter of your balls. Yours look huge compared to mine. At least 3 times the flotation capacity.
I built Bayflower at 1:32 scale, which comes out at 55" x 9.5". But yours being a good 20ft longer, what scale did you build at?
To get "Bayflower" to her marks puts the AUW at close to 56lb.
Quite often I curse the 161kb limit on photo postings! To look at details is almost impossible due to pixilation.
But, another stupid question coming up.
In my other life in the RFA we very often had a need to use what the bosun (and his lads) referred to as a "fish tackle". But on my builders drawings the things I "thought" were fish tackles prove to be simple iron 2 sheave blocks. Or were they a form of "snatch block"?
Regards and thanks for energising the little grey cells! Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 04, 2011, 07:02:14 pm
After that post I felt sure I'd be moderated or something! But on with the project.
Once or twice in the past, I've been asked what shade of "brown" I used. It was only a couple of days ago when I had to buy a tinlet of Humbol that I realised that I hadn't a clue what colour I'd originally used. Another age thing I suppose! So, at vast expense and damage to the pension, I bought three tins that looked the closest. Guess what. It wasn't a "brown" at all.....it was pure and simple "rust". Ho-hum. I don't know what other modellers use that colour for, but it looks absolutely perfect on an old trawler! BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: nhp651 on May 04, 2011, 08:42:23 pm
Neil, i've been perusing your pics etc for a few days now. Doing the "compare" bit, I can see some obvious differences (main one being the derrick on the foremast, radar and so on). A major difference would seem to be the diameter of your balls. Yours look huge compared to mine. At least 3 times the flotation capacity.
I built Bayflower at 1:32 scale, which comes out at 55" x 9.5". But yours being a good 20ft longer, what scale did you build at?
To get "Bayflower" to her marks puts the AUW at close to 56lb.
Quite often I curse the 161kb limit on photo postings! To look at details is almost impossible due to pixilation.
But, another stupid question coming up.
In my other life in the RFA we very often had a need to use what the bosun (and his lads) referred to as a "fish tackle". But on my builders drawings the things I "thought" were fish tackles prove to be simple iron 2 sheave blocks. Or were they a form of "snatch block"?
Regards and thanks for energising the little grey cells! Bryan.

hi bryan........mine is 1'32, same as yours but i built her on a much modified and altered mountfleet models St Nectan kit.....she is 68" long.

those grey "bobbins" were not floats, but the ground rope steel roller weights. you can just make out the floats for the header ropes behind the bobbins.
i used to load all this gear onto the trawlers in fleetwood docks as a summer job for Cosalt, and the bobbins came in different diameters ranging from 18 - 28 inches, and the fleetwood trawler skippers would always have larger bobbins on the outer ends of the ground ropes and smaller dia's on the inner length..don't know why, they just did.
as for tackle, there is a great deal of stuff on an old steam trawler, and without you pinpointing what you mean i can't really tie it down.
neil.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: nhp651 on May 04, 2011, 08:50:06 pm
if you want some more detailed shots of her bryan, just pm me your email address and i'll send some..they are general shots but show quite a bit of extra detailing to what the kit had.
neil.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 05, 2011, 01:51:17 pm
Neil. Thanks again. My e-mail address is under the profile button on my posts. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 05, 2011, 06:43:58 pm
Having just made the very juvenile error of spraying the enamel painted mast with acrylic (must be another age thing), and put that right, my thoughts have now strayed towards the rigging. Before the (very welcome) posts of Neil and Davie I included a schematic of the foremast. Seems an age ago!
Since the first incarnation of this model I’ve totally changed the way I do the rigging…especially models that have ratlines and “deadeyes” (rather than bottle screws)….which seems to be a fair percentage of them. The major change is making the standing rigging (shrouds and stays) from hard-drawn brass wire rather than wound flexible stuff. Two reasons. One is that the solid wire is pretty tough and when knocked will spring back to its original “straightness”. The second is that it doesn’t get bowed inwards so easily when fitting the ratlines. So the shrouds on “Bayflower” are going to be replaced with 0.045”dia wire. Fairly heavy stuff and (for me, anyway) difficult to form small eyes into the ends. Especially if the finished length is either too short or too long. So following the less wasteful method I used when re-building “Norseman” I’m using short lengths of aluminium tubing sort of disguised as the splices with thinner wire slotted into the “bendy” end (the eyes). Obviously the “fat” wire won’t fit into the small dia alloy tube that’s a nice fit for the smaller wire. A couple of minutes with a normal sanding disc on the drill soon shaves enough metal off to be a similar snug fit into the tubing. I hope the pics show this even though they are just “mock-ups” to show the system works.
“Deadeyes” used to be a totally closed book. For the life of me I couldn’t work out how they were rigged until I discovered that one end was just a knot, and not a length fastened to anything.
Originally I bought a pack of wood deadeyes but for some reason or another they didn’t have a groove around the perimeter. So I had to make them myself out of brass rod. Another learning curve!
Looking at Neils pics (that he kindly sent to me) of the dead-eyes on his similar model I noted that the dead-eyes were “triple” and not just in pairs like “Bayflower”…I wonder why?
Be that as it may, at the moment I’m still working on the mast itself, but the standing rigging has to be next. But I hope that this post might make “things” a little clearer to those who, like me, struggled with “deadeyes”. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 11, 2011, 05:31:38 pm
The Trawl Winch.
I must admit to getting more than a bit fed-up with this ruddy mast. I’d much prefer to be sitting in my deck chair reading a good book. At least I would be if only the weather would settle down. Brilliant sunshine for 10 minutes followed by 10 minutes of big black clouds. And, of course, the instant drop in temperature brings on a chasing wind. Can’t win.
    I suppose it was inevitable that the re-built gallows would make the permanent gallows stays slightly out of kilter….especially the two that fasten to the mast. My “solution” to that problem won’t be approved by the fishing fraternity amongst us…but it’s the best I can come up with. This is the point at which I lost patience with the thing and thought it best to move on to something a bit easier. The trawl winch. When I first built “Bayflower” I doubt if this Mayhem site existed, but I wouldn’t really know as I didn’t have a computer to squander so much time on! The point there being that I have no photos of the process of building the winch. When I started it I really hadn’t a clue about it. I knew it was big from grainy pictures I’d seen. I could also surmise that the primary drive gear wasn’t all that much different to any other steam winch. But I still don’t really know if the 2 main wire barrels are permanently linked together or if they can be operated independently. Not that it matters all that much as the drivers side of the thing is hidden under the bridge overhang. What I did pick up on though was that the trawl wires were directed on to the 2 barrels between 2 (4 actually, 2 for each wire) moving rollers. This will prevent the trawl wires just finishing up in a tangled heap on the barrels. Long lost memories of my cadet days came flooding back. When a cargo runner wire gets trapped in an overlying layer of wire there’s a good chance that it will kink and cause all sorts of problems..not least being the odd broken “jaggie” that can put a nasty rip into an unwary hand. Life could have been so much easier if all winches had these geared travelling roller guides. Would have saved the owners a fair amount as well. Steel wire doesn’t come cheap.
     Anyway. Without very much in the way of details to refer to I just went ahead with bits of plasticard for the basic structure (based on a sort of amended cargo winch design). Years later when I was building her replacement (to be called “James Cullen) firms like Caldercraft etc. were producing pretty good fittings for their models…including a trawl winch. Wrong scale for me, but “my” model shop was quite happy for me to borrow one of these things and hopefully give me a bit more of an insight in their workings. You may be able to imagine my pleasant surprise at finding that I’d been largely correct in all my original assumptions. So this rebuilt “Bayflower” has the original winch. Cleaned up and repainted, but that’s all. The “Cullen” winch is naturally the better one, but not by much.
The winch as shown in the posted photos is 5” long, 1.75” high and 2.75” wide.
The base is 2 pieces of 1/16” “Perspex” (actually “Glodex” as used in secondary double glazing, and just picked out of a skip). The top layer being slightly smaller than the bottom one. The whole thing being screwed to the deck.
     As far as the actual “wire” is concerned…..well I suppose that many “craft” shops sell suitable stuff, but I found that our local “Singer” (as in sewing machines) shop sells various grades of “thread” including a rather thick steel coloured one which was ideal for what I wanted. Man-made fibre, and when run over a block of beeswax is more or less proof against anything. Where do you get beeswax these days? I haven’t a clue. I’ve had mine since the early 1960s.



 

 

 

 

 
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on May 27, 2011, 02:19:56 pm
Sorry for the delay....but "other" aspects of life keep being intrusive.
The end of May. More like the end of February today. Sitting indoors trying to do a re-rigging job on “Bayflower” that I don’t really want to do at the moment. But looking at the hull that’s sat in front of me, I got to musing (again). I could well be wrong, but I can’t recall reading about the making and fitting of bilge keels to a model. As with everything in life, there’s always more than one way of doing the job. So if others have used the same method as me then so be it.
   But why do Bilge Keels exist in the first place, what do they actually do?
1.Purpose.
       Bilge keels are intended to resist rolling (Ha-ha…tell that to any Pongo that’s ever crossed the North Sea in an LSL). Their effects are complex, but may be summarised as :-
a.   Direct resistance between the bilge keel and the water has a quite weak effect.
b.   They slightly increase the period of  roll. If that’s really the case then an LSL would roll enough to put the flight deck underwater if they weren’t fitted.
c.   They upset the transverse streamlines of the ships hull and so set up eddy-currents and increase the “wave making resistance.
d.   They increase the water pressure over a large part of the ships hull and this pressure acts in such a direction as to “damp” the rolling.
Any the wiser? To be frank, nor am I. I’d like to be on a ship with “removable” bilge keels so I could see/feel the effects for myself.
Such is the theory.
For material I use aluminium sheet. Thick enough to be reasonably strong but also capable of being cut with a pair of shears.
This task is best done before any “additions” are made to the hull….about the first thing you do to a hull really. On the outside of the hull mark off the ends of the bilge keels and drill 2 small holes as markers.
    Not all bilge keels are fitted completely fore and aft….some follow the hull line giving them a “bend”. Not very important in a model.
    Then, using a jig-saw (or the tool of your choice) with a thin blade, cut a slot into the hull. With a GRP or Vac-formed hull this isn’t a problem. If there are frames in the way then to avoid slicing into them I can only say “be very careful”!
A bit of aluminium strip about 2” wide and cut to length can then be inserted into the slot from the outside of the hull. If it’s a snug fit, leave it in place and turn the hull over. Aiming for something like a 0.5” projection into the hull draw a line on the aluminium using the inside of the hull as a guide. Remove aluminium strip. Cut slots in the ally every half inch or so down to the line. Then bend the ally one by one cut at a time in opposite directions. Tap (gently) with a bracing bit of “stuff” so the ally sort of fits the inside of the hull.
Now draw a line on the ally that’s outside the hull as a guide. Remove strip from hull. Now you can cut the bilge keel to whatever width you wish using the “outside” line as a guide. Chop the ends of your new bilge keels at an angle and refit into the hull. Test for fit.
For permanent fixing I use “hairy filler”, when that’s set I run a line of epoxy down the join on the outside of the hull smoothing it in with a finger..gives a nice smooth and waterproof joint. And that’s it. Takes longer to write than do! BY.

Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 05, 2011, 05:30:19 pm
Don't give up on me just yet!
In the words of the immortal "Chad" (life's too short to explain who he was), "Wot.No posts ?"....
Even with the domestic upheaval brought about by the arrival of an iPad, and in between bouts of attempting to change my "fish-belly white" to a more pleasing shade of a sort of pinkish redish "tan" colour, I have at last completed the foremast standing rigging.
But it all looks a bit bland on a photo. The use of hard-drawn brass wire (3 sizes of) as opposed to "proper" wire makes a great improvement from both a visual and strength aspect. My only problem was getting the length of the wire correct. Mainly caused by my inability to see precisely. I sort of got over that niggle by fitting false rigging screws (aka "Bottle Screws") and by using black cord at the lower ends as a sort of tensioner. Once made to look "solid" the ends look more or less OK....as far as I can see. This "method" could well infuriate sticklers for accuracy, but when needs must etc....
Not the way I would have done it a few years ago. However, now I'm working on "simple" stuff like "Bag Ropes" and so on (with thanks to Davie Tait and others). When that's done I'll post the photos. Thanks for reading. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 15, 2011, 07:35:30 pm
At long, long last I've managed to sort of complete the bits that make a trawler a trawler. And what a slog it's been. Modelling is supposed to be a relaxing sort of "hobby". "Supposed" to be, being the operative word here. This was anything but relaxing.
Who (or what) was Dan Leno? (he of the trawl buoys). I know of Jay Leno, but I doubt if any of his family have any connection. Could be wrong though, many odd family things come up from the USA.
As the trawl net will be rolled up and stowed inside the stbd. bulwark I reckoned that its actual phyiscal size didn't matter all that much....hence the use of a hairnet. Seems to suffice. (My local lady chemist is getting used to odd-ball requests from me!).
The Otter Boards are of stained spruce with brass bindings.....the "wiggly" bits are heavy brass wire (I should have used copper as it's easier to bend).
The ball "rollers" are just painted foam balls from (I think) a box of Xmas decorations....all the others are plastic beads of one size/shape or another (the longish things are rhe "Bag Ropes"..or will be).
I'm still unsure about how to fasten the Otter Boards to the main towing wires though. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: BarryM on June 15, 2011, 07:47:08 pm
Bryan,

I'm surprised that you remember 'Chad' but not 'Dan Leno'. Given your reputation as an old school stage-door johnnie with a habit of twirling your moustachios at the chorus girls, you must have seen him at the local music hall?

Cheers,

Barry M
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 15, 2011, 09:45:02 pm
Bryan,

I'm surprised that you remember 'Chad' but not 'Dan Leno'. Given your reputation as an old school stage-door johnnie with a habit of twirling your moustachios at the chorus girls, you must have seen him at the local music hall?

Cheers,

Barry M
Ah! THAT Dan Leno! I had wondered about the spelling of "buoys". But I'm still none the wiser about why these things are named as such....because they only fit one way, perhaps? A more erudite reply would be appreciated.....but at least you read it! BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on June 15, 2011, 10:18:58 pm
At long, long last I've managed to sort of complete the bits that make a trawler a trawler. And what a slog it's been. Modelling is supposed to be a relaxing sort of "hobby". "Supposed" to be, being the operative word here. This was anything but relaxing.
Who (or what) was Dan Leno? (he of the trawl buoys). I know of Jay Leno, but I doubt if any of his family have any connection. Could be wrong though, many odd family things come up from the USA.
As the trawl net will be rolled up and stowed inside the stbd. bulwark I reckoned that its actual phyiscal size didn't matter all that much....hence the use of a hairnet. Seems to suffice. (My local lady chemist is getting used to odd-ball requests from me!).
The Otter Boards are of stained spruce with brass bindings.....the "wiggly" bits are heavy brass wire (I should have used copper as it's easier to bend).
The ball "rollers" are just painted foam balls from (I think) a box of Xmas decorations....all the others are plastic beads of one size/shape or another (the longish things are rhe "Bag Ropes"..or will be).
I'm still unsure about how to fasten the Otter Boards to the main towing wires though. BY.


The otter boards were shackled to the warps using large bow shackles Bryan. A boat of this vintage wouldn't have had the net directly onto the boards but used 25 fathom wire sweeps. The back-strops on the otter boards were joined using a shackle onto a short length of wire which had a "kellys-eye" http://www.dantrawl.com/pdf/C/kellyeye.pdf , there was a short wire between the stopper and the angle irons on the front of the trawl board ( the triangular brackets ) which is called a pennant wire , this was unshackled from the warp and tied to the otter board.

(http://www.trawlerphotos.co.uk/gallery/data/982/davidjohn1980j.jpg)
If you look at the aft wire you can see the kellys eye with the back-strop hanging from it just above the dan-leno bobbin.

The shackle we used for the boards was pretty large ( 10'' wide bow type ) and on the front of the otter boards the 2 angle irons were already shackled together with a bow shackle with the pin towards the warp , there was a swivel on that shackle then a heavy duty link shackled to that and it is the link that you shackled the main warp onto. I'll have a look through my photo and see if I can find any photos that show this for you Bryan
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: BarryM on June 15, 2011, 10:24:21 pm
dan leno = a part of a trawl, the short pole or spreader to which each wing end was attached (probably from a corruption of the French word guindineau).

There also seem to be DL boards, brackets, arms etc etc.

Barry M

Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 16, 2011, 11:23:36 am
Barry and Davie, thanks for your most welcome and useful replies. This is all getting to be a lot more complicated than rigging for a RAS! Even with all the help I'm getting I feel sure that I'm going to make some big boo-boos before I'm done. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 17, 2011, 05:55:21 pm
Although I haven't as yet finished the re-rigging of the trawl warps...partly because of my ignorance but mainly because I'm getting really frustrated with trying to insert bits of stuff into holes that seem to have no intention of having anything inserted into them.
So I've switched my attention to the main superstructure. Although basically intact, the photo more or less shows what needs to be done. It just goes to show what damage can be done to a model when it's just chucked willy-nilly into the back of a van.
The taff-rail around the wheelhouse is perhaps the most evident. But many of the fittings on the 3 small derricks have "disappeared", and the mainmast rigging has been badly bent out of shape. Looks easily fixable on the photo, but it isn't.
I really will have to learn how to control my anger and just plod along until it gets to look like it used to do. Although I must admit to a daily dose of dejection every time I approach the poor old thing.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: kiwi on June 18, 2011, 02:16:52 am
Hi Bryan,
Keep up the good work, as this restoration provides a valuable insite into how things are done right. I've learned so much from your way of doing things, and the various input from trawlermen as to rigging etc most interesting.
Very frustrating having to fix things that even a little bit of care could have prevented, but then yobbos that steal have no respect of anything, and certainly have no appreciation for the skills, time and effort which goes into creating such a work of art. Anyone can destroy, however very few have the skills to create such beautiful things.
Much appreciate your efforts
Thank you
kiwi
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 22, 2011, 05:14:36 pm
First of all, a "thank you" to "kiwi".
Then comes a little bit of a moan about the size of the photos (in kb's) allowed. Getting detail down from over 2mb to that allowed degrades photos too much. Not so long ago the maximum allowed was well over 200kb, with a corresponding increase in clarity.
    But this is really just an update on the (slow) progress so far.
With more respect than I can put into words and to prevent blushing, I sincerely thank Davie Tait and Barry M for their explanations and help. However. Once I started following Davies advice and photos I quickly realised that much of the detail work he so eloquently described was just going to so hidden amidst the general clutter that much of it was going to be well hidden. So (probably to much disgust) I've "simplified" it down to basics. Not a good solution, but so be it.
       The 2 posted photos show (or are supposed to show) the rolled up net laid along the stbd bulwark with the various floats, bottom weights and the obscure "Dan-Lenos" attached to "my" hair net. When the net is rolled up and given a couple of coats of matt lacquer it's really difficult to ascertain its size and humble origins. Lengthwise it's probably too short, but it serves its purpose. The trawl warps are also there, but the reduction in size of the photo may make them hard to pick out.
      If you are anything like me you may find it difficult to remember how you wired the thing up in the original build. So I now stick a wiring diagram somewhere handy (the white patch in the 2nd photo)...this helps mute the mocking laughter from fellow club members when they see you scratching your head prior to launch!

Belatedly, I've just realised that I've made precious little mention of the "manufacture" of some of the smaller fittings. I must address that soon.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 22, 2011, 05:16:50 pm
Oops! Missed out the first one! Sorry.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on June 22, 2011, 05:38:12 pm
Bryan at the scale of this boat most of the gear will be "hidden" so its not that important to have it absolutely right ( I'm not a "rivet" counter lol ). Your model is far more accurate than a lot of scratch built side trawler models and the fact that you were more than happy to ask about the rigging to get it right means a lot to an ex-trawlerman.

Great model
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 22, 2011, 07:16:19 pm
Well, what can I say to that. All I can do, Davie is to say "thank you" and electronically shake your hand. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: bosun on June 22, 2011, 07:44:59 pm
Hy Brian.
I dont post much on this site anymore, much of what passes as model boating today :(( is of no interest to me., and it seems that certain people have an answer to any and every question asked, so I find there isnt much point. However I will say that I am really enjoying this rebuild, maybe the subject matter is more to my taste, but it is also the fact that with every post, I, like yourself, have learned a lot from the other guy,s comments, and of course from the build itself. Just like to say nice job.
Bosun
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: pugwash on June 22, 2011, 11:13:51 pm
Hi Bryan, still catching up with some of the more interesting threads after my hols,
what you have done looks really good and well up to your usual standard, you might not
be pleased with having to re-do it but you should be very pleased with what you have done

Geoff
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 23, 2011, 03:43:35 pm
One bit of  navigational equipment that’s unique to a fishing trawler is the “Tri-Coloured” lantern on the foremast. There should be 3 nav.lights on this mast. Two of them used only when fishing. Although in “real life” many trawler skippers just blithely ignored these rules.
I’ll precis the rules in a minute….at least, the rules that applied until the 1970s or later. Perhaps they’ve changed since I stopped ploughing furrows across the worlds oceans.
When not engaged in trawling (Note:- this only applies to trawlers and not drifters etc.) they shall show only the navigation lights for a normal powered vessel of her size. That is:- a sternlight, 2 sidelights and a normal light on the foremast…if the trawler is 150ft long or more she should also have a normal nav light on the mainmast. However, when trawling the only “normal” nav light to be shown is the sternlight. As a reminder, the sternlight is (theoretically!) only visible from right aft to two points (22.5*) aft of the beam. The standard mast lights are visible from right ahead to 2 points aft of the beam. Similarly for the sidelights except (of course) they are only visible on one side of the vessel.
      This all changes on a trawler. Where, on a “normal” ship the foremast light is situated the “Tri-Coloured” light is placed. The “normal” light is placed elsewhere lower down the mast. This tricoloured thingy is laid out differently to the normal lights. The white light part of it is only visible from right ahead to 2 points on either side of the bow. (22.5* each side of right ahead). The red and green segments are visible from 2 points off the bow to 2 points aft of the beam. So you can (hopefully) visualise that the coloured segments are visible over a much narrower arc than a normal sidelight, as is the white segment.
    Not less than 6ft or more than 12 feet below the tri-coloured light is another light, this one showing an “all-round” white light. These 2 lights are (or were) physically quite large things. Probably about 2, perhaps 3 ft tall and at least a foot in diameter.
The “normal” mast light is fitted anywhere below the all-round light. OK, not “anywhere”, but high enough to be visible.
I’ve mentioned this arrangement as many in the modelling world seem to get it wrong. Even many of the kit builds I’ve seen don’t show the differences, and (mainly due to an understandable lack of knowledge) as so many modellers like lighting up their models like a Xmas tree, it isn’t uncommon to see a model trawler showing both normal lights and the fishing lights at the same time.
    As far as making the tri-coloured lantern is concerned. Well, being a bit of a clever clogs I tried (reasonably successfully) to make my own. But I wouldn’t do it again. It’s much easier and quicker to buy a couple of  oversized (scalewise) units from a model shop and paint in the coloured segments. The “all-round” white light is easily catered for  by using a unit meant as an anchor light. The “normal” (lower) light should be at the correct scale for the model.
I hope that little effort helps with clearing up a rather common (if understandable) error. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 24, 2011, 05:53:51 pm
Another odd bit of stuff is the aerial for the RDF system. Normally simply referred to as the “DF”. This system of taking bearings by radio from a known and fixed location has been around since Noah was a lad. But extensively used during WW2.
   The earliest systems had a rotatable “square” aerial as shown in the first photo. It was rotated by a handwheel in the compartment below the aerial. In the early days this didn’t give an actual bearing from a ship, although it would have done from a fixed shore station. Instead it would give a number of degrees from the ships heading at the time. Time consuming as ships then used the magnetic compass which was riddled with constantly changing errors due to the ships own magnetism and the magnetic poles “variation” depending where on the planet you happened to be at the time.
Of course, none of this matters two hoots to a model maker…but I just thought that it might be nice to at least have an inkling how this thing worked.
When the aerial (tuned to the transmitting station) was rotated the signal would go from a maximum strength to a minimum. Either strength could be used, but the human ear hears differences in levels of silences rather than volume. So the “bearing” would be at the point of most silence. Find another transmitting station and do it all again and you have a rough (very rough) cross “fix”. As this system (using “Long Wave”) can transmit over huge distances the earths curvature has to be taken into account….called “half-convergency”….no need to go into that here. But that’s the principle of it.
The next stage of its development was the introduction of the Double Loop aerial that was still fitted to ships in the days of the Decca Navigator (a short range system) and the American “Loran” and “Omega” systems (long range). But even now in the days of GPS it’s still fitted…not because of the systems accuracy, more because of its reliability. Also the modern receiver is linked to a gyro compass so the result is more of a bearing than an angle from the ships head.
    The double loop aerial is fixed, but by wiggling the compass knob on the receiver the max and min signal strength is basically the same as in the days of yore.
Now  to  the modelling aspect of all this gubbins.
I guess we’re looking at 2 “rings” of around 3ft in diameter, with each ring material about 2 inches in diameter. For most of my life I’d always sort of  assumed that what appeared to be the larger diameter ring was the fore and aft one. But since I began taking a modelling interest in these mundane things I now think that they are the same size, so it really doesn’t matter a  toss which one is upper or lower. The lower ends go into a “box”…all fitted to a pedestal. All the ones I’ve seen also had a central (vertical) rod fitted. I used to think that this was part of the aerial, now I think it was just a “stiffener”. But I think it should be fitted.
And now it’s confession time. It was only when I thought about writing this bit of useless information that I realised that I’d forgotten to even fit the thing on to “Norseman”…and nobody noticed! That must be rectified forthwith. Rats! BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Netleyned on June 24, 2011, 06:21:33 pm
Some had a vertical Sense aerial which may be the vertical element
The  magic system was a Bellini Tosi loop arrangement which meant you could
'Wiggle the Knobs' instead of rotating the aerial.

Ned
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 24, 2011, 06:27:30 pm
Thanks Ned, I was hoping that someone would put me straight...even though I didn't understand a word of it. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on June 28, 2011, 06:25:22 pm
Quiet reflection and a bit of cogitation often throws up answers to puzzling questions....but that mental process can equally well work the opposite way.
     I've just replaced the "standard" compass on "Bayflower" and got to think about it. When I first built the model (and her replacement) I just went blindly ahead, made and fitted the thing. Not a moment spent thinking about the "why" of it. This time around, the "why" question has wormed its way into bit of my brain that never lets a good question answer itself.
     As this is about the elevated compass I'd rather you ignored the replacement and unfinished wooden rail around the wheelhouse.
     For the life of me I just can't imagine any sane trawlerman climbing up the outside ladder to look at the thing in the teeth of an arctic gale. Not that I ever for one moment ever considered these trawlermen "sane" in the first place. But perhaps that's a clue in the first place? Weather and Latitudes. But then I realised (remembered, actually) that the nearer you get to the poles (the geographical sort) the "magnetic flux" becomes almost vertical, so rendering a magnetic compass useless for navigational purposes.
     And therein lies my question of "Why".
There are many "brain-boxes" on this forum so I hope at least one of you can answer (in an understandable sequence of words). BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on July 01, 2011, 02:31:36 pm
While waiting for some epoxy to set my eye was drawn to those odd looking sheaves fastened to the superstructure casing. I guess the must have some important purpose that I've forgotten. Possibly to drag the trawl net "cod end" back towards the after gallows? Maybe not.
Anyway, I just wondered if you'd like to indulge in a bit of Origami?
If these sheaves had been set vertically then the job would have been quite simple, but they are at a very obvious angle..so some thought was required. Didn't make it any easier as they also (partially, at least) fit on the rounded part of the casing. Hence the slightly elongated upper mounting plate. It also seemed logical to at least attempt to make the entire mounting in one piece. A bit of careful drawing and equally careful bending of the thin aluminium (litho plate) produced what you see here. I should think that I made this model before Caldercraft made theirs, but mine look a bit different to the ones supplied with the varios kits...but I suppose they came in different patterns anyway.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on July 01, 2011, 02:44:32 pm
They're used to haul the bobbins alongside Bryan and have to angled out to towards the rail. There is a rope tied to the each end of the wings which runs through a rope eye on the top of the net and down onto the bobbins which lets the gear be hauled up to the boat. The aft end is attached to the gallows using a slip and for bobbins are hauled aboard using the gilson ( same one that take the cod end aboard ) and are laid alongside the rail. We had a double sheave one on the casin next to the winch and a single one aft towards the aft gallows but a trawler the size of the Bayflower would have had another single further aft as well ( the sheaves were used for hauling the messenger wire up , the messenger was a large hook attached to a long piece of trawl wire it was passed over the aft wire and taken forrard to be hooked onto the forrard trawl wire - making sure it was facing away from the rail - and it was slid down the warp and hauled up aft so the warps could be put into the trawl block )


(http://s1.postimage.org/2hr2y7538/davidjohn1980b.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2hr2y7538/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2hr7wt6kk/davidjohn_A169_1970.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2hr7wt6kk/)
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on July 01, 2011, 03:00:32 pm
found another clearer photo taken on the David Wood A142 showing the sheaves Bryan


(http://s1.postimage.org/2i01fztdw/davidwood_A142.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2i01fztdw/)
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on July 01, 2011, 04:51:47 pm
Dear Heavens! It gets worse! It may all have been "low-tech" stuff, but there's an awful lot of thought and "know-how" in these scruffy (and important) vessels. Not much room for the crew to move around in either.
All this "learning" about old "sidewinders" is more difficult than I thought it would be.
Davie, when youngsters "went to sea" on a trawler of this vintage, knowing nothing except which side of the boat to be sick over, did they ever get any "book learning" or was it all from grand-dads knee (so to speak)?
It pains me to say it, but I'm beginning to develop a lot of respect for these guys. I still don't appreciate them giving heart attacks to the drivers of other non-fishing vessels though.
Perhaps, in modelling terms, I should have stuck to what I know (knew) best. But where's the "fun" in that?
Thanks for your reply.....now all I have to do is to don me ganzie and puzzle out what you said! Cheers. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Netleyned on July 01, 2011, 05:16:50 pm
I can only surmise that was the ships 'Standard' compass put as far away from all the iron in the hull and trawl rigs to get the least deviation and used occasionally as a
reference for the other compasses usually in the wheelhouse and the Skippers cabin. As you say Bryan they would not have been much good with the amount of
declination in those latitudes North of the Arctic Circle. The compass card would have been standing on end!

Ned
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on July 01, 2011, 05:25:01 pm
The company boats all put young lads to the local "trawler school" where they were taught about the gear , how to splice rope , mend the nets , etc. The skipper owned boats were different all the young lads grew up around the boats and normally would have been taught about mending nets , etc by their Grandfather and on summer holiday trips from school.

I had a needle in my hand being taught how to mend nets by the age of 4 , been taught how to splice ropes and wires by the time I was 7 and had been going to sea on my families boat by 7 as well for my summer holidays. By the time I was 12 the only thing I hadn't done was work the winch during fishing ( worked it a lot in harbour changing wires , etc though , it would have been too dangerous to let someone as young as 12 work the winch ) but I had been up in the wheelhouse with my Uncle and Father being taught how to handle the boat and take a watch.

There is a fishermans training course run in various colleges around the country now Bryan , my local college ( Banff and Buchan Technical College ) runs a training course , there's one up in the Shetlands at Scalloway College and at least one or two in England as far as I know.

There is an awful lot more to learn now compared to when I was a kid. The nets are huge compared to 40 years ago , the boats all work over the stern using powerful winches and net drums , the fish goes into a reception hopper and there sometimes is a hydraulic driven belt that takes the fish out of the hopper so the crew can sort the catch. There is a lot to learn about hydraulics now compared to 40 years ago.

The wheelhouse electronics are like the starship enterprise compared to even 25 years ago as well. When I started we had 1 Radar , a paper sounder , a lupe sounder ( looked like an oscilloscope where you could see the fish beneath the boat ) , 1 mk21 Decca Plotter with the electrically driver paper chart plotter , 2 Sailor RT144 VHF's and a single Sailor SSB set , 1 magnetic compass and an air fog horn. Nowadays there are 2 Radars ( 1 of which has to be an ARPA type ) , 4 or 5 VHF's , an SSB set , 2 colour flat screen GPS Navigation plotters , 2 colour flat screen fish finder sounders , some boats have a type of plotter/sounder that works in 3D ( OLEX ) so you can see pretty accurately where your net is on the sea floor , mobile phone , sat phone , internet ( off the sat phone ) , SKY tv , CCTV cameras , the controls for the winches , bow thruster , the displays for the net sensors. It really is hugely different now compared to 25 years ago let alone what they had 60 years ago
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on July 01, 2011, 06:35:31 pm
I can only surmise that was the ships 'Standard' compass put as far away from all the iron in the hull and trawl rigs to get the least deviation and used occasionally as a
reference for the other compasses usually in the wheelhouse and the Skippers cabin. As you say Bryan they would not have been much good with the amount of
declination in those latitudes North of the Arctic Circle. The compass card would have been standing on end!

Ned
Ned, thanks for the reply. Not that it answers the question. (At least you tried!). "Declination" is nowt to do with the earths magnetic field. That's "variation". But I agree with you that theoreticaly the compass card would be approaching the vertical. All other ships have the "standard" compass easily accessible. I also note that these elevated compasses are not in a binnacle containing corrector magnets. So perhaps it was all just a cost saving exercise? But I'd love to know the real reason. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on July 01, 2011, 06:46:18 pm
Davie:- You really ought to write a book on this! Or, if you are anything like me, you need some sort of stimulus to set you off. You have a breadth and depth of knowledge about your section of the maritime life that (in a way) complements mine. I don't for one moment think that you are a shy and retiring sort of guy.......so why not consider doing a "fishing" version of my "Life At Sea" saga that I ended last year.
    Having said that, I'd be equally interested to read about the life experiences of those who served (sailed) in Passenger Liners, Container ships, Dredgers or any other type of ship that comes to mind. Regards. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: kiwi on July 04, 2011, 08:03:31 pm
Hi Davie & Bryan,
I'll second everything Bryan has said in his post.
Short anicdotal, posts, similar to Bryan's "Life at Sea" would be more than welcome, by most on here.
I have a great admiration for all who sailed on any boat or ship at sea.
I was brought up messing about in boats when a boy, but only small pleasure craft and the like. Have met quite a few "old Salts" while researching the old craft of NZ, and am astounded at the conditions they had to work and live under, whether on the rivers and lakes, fishing inshore and off, the coastal or deep sea, they all have my deepest respect.
Looking forward to many more seamen sharing their lives experiences on Mayhem
cheers
kiwi
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on August 03, 2011, 06:36:59 pm
The rebuild of this ruddy trawler is taking longer than I thought it would. I took it down to the pond last Sunday just to compare it with her newer sister and to check on what else I need to do. All the back-end rigging (that I knew about) needs renewing/replacing (including the 3 derricks). Apart from that, that's about it.
Actually, I could have put it on the water as all the electrics etc have been refitted. But to my eternal shame (must be an age thing) I couldn't remember which wires went where. So some pitying advice was forthcoming. But I'm getting used to feeling somewhat retarded and have no shame left in me.
In the photo, the one I've spent so long rebuilding is in the foreground. I really want to see the pair of them together on the water..once will do. Then the "Bayflower" will be put up for sale (I have no need for two trawlers).
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: BarryM on August 27, 2011, 08:25:46 pm
All gone very quiet in here. Perhaps if those who have learned - and are learning - from this thread were to ask for more, we might persuade Bryan to continue it. I fear he has disappeared up his Ipad.

Barry M
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on September 02, 2011, 06:48:23 pm
Having received a couple of e-mails regarding my "silence" on this rebuild, I thought I should at least come up with some sort of response. "Bayflower" has not been languishing, unloved and forgotten. That would all be a bit difficult as I have to squeeze past it every day to get Mrs.Y's gardening tools for her (and replace them). No, it's all been a culmination of circumstances.
Partly because of doing something I don't really want to do.....but am loathe to make a "bodge-up job of it. So a frame of mind comes into it.
I have, however, replaced and re-positioned all the running gear and electrics, so the model is basically ready to run. The "back-end" is my stumbling block. Nothing all that awkward...if only I could really see what I'm doing! An old 10 minute job now takes closer to an hour. By then the "good eye" is knackered, and I get rattled, annoyed and prone to errors. Not a good trait for a scratch modeller.
    For a while now I've been uncomfortable with the condition of my 2nd garage...where a lot of "stuff" is stowed. But stripping it all out would leave me with nowhere to put "the "stuff" while "re-furbishing" no.2 garage. Recently, one of my neighbours had her garage become vacant and has loaned it to me (free of charge) for as long as it all takes. Now things are looking a bit more "tickety-boo" I can get back to a bit of basics. Apart from extricating my nether regions from my iPad as suggested by some person of Caledonian extraction. Please bear with me. Regards to all. BY.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: DavieTait on September 02, 2011, 10:06:26 pm
Sorry for the delay in getting these up here for you Bryan , only just found the disc I'd saved them on

The images show how the gear was worked on the old side trawlers and explains the way the doors are rigged better than I described them

(http://s2.postimage.org/2ml8e26p0/Drifter_trawler_otter_gear.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2ml8e26p0/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2mljytm5g/Working_sidetrawl_gear.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2mljytm5g/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2mltw1p44/Working_sidetrawl_gear_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2mltw1p44/)

Davie
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Bryan Young on September 03, 2011, 05:58:17 pm
Davie, thanks for your further explanation. It has been a source of bewilderment (to me, anyway) as to how the 2 towing wires were laid out. I never thought of such a thing as a "towing block"....but it now makes sense. Alas, there are so many "unknown unknown" things here (to paraphrase a certain American) that to make sense of it all I think I'd have been better off and wiser to build a 1:1 model! But in the absence of that, I'm sure that other sidewinder builders (and fans of same) will have learned a lot from your input to my ignorant questions. Thank you. Bryan.
Title: Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
Post by: Harquebus on September 10, 2013, 08:52:57 pm
In the interest of further information, came across these older videos on YT showing exactly how these trawlers were used to include the rigging, trawl winch, bollards, otter boards, etc. A two part affair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4AuwMigSrg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4AuwMigSrg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-lbsq8CjZI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-lbsq8CjZI)

Very interesting imho.