Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: tony52 on July 01, 2011, 05:45:09 pm
-
I couldn't help but notice the back door rebuilding of the railway network which was ripped up following the Beeching report albeit in a modified state. In the North West the line connecting Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly stations is to be built, Manchester to Liverpool is to electrified, the Metrolink light rail network is being expanded to encompass Rochdale, Oldham, Chorlton, South Manchester and a second line across the city. Today the news shows that the line between Burnley and Manchester is now under review with a plan to reconnect the Todmorden Curve.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-11418241
Birmingham Moor St station has now reopened. The HS2 line (London to Birmingham) is a hot potato, but further proof of the requirement to expand the network.
Are things happening in your area?
-
yes indeed.....there's a movement gaining pace to re open the branch line between Poulton le Fylde and Fleetwood which closed in the 1970's....most of the track line is still there, but planning and money still has to be found.....usual story.
neil.
-
Always worth remembering that it wasn't Beeching that cut the railways, it was the governments of the time. Beeching was just brought in to balance the books.
-
Although Beeching has a lot to answer for, perhaps it's worth considering that "he was just obeying the orders". We all know, with hindsight, that he was wrong. Although he did give us many wonderful foot/bridle/cycle paths.
But since Beeching the demographic spread of the population has moved into realms he could never have anticipated. There could well be a good case for re-laying and opening up some of the old lines. Most of the land is still there I believe.
But....always a "But"......I'm of the opinion that National "Amenities" (Power, Water,Transport) should remain within governmental control (NOT Nationilisation)....but history shows they are effing useless at it. Privatisation just seems to drive people into penury. All a bit of a mess really. Dejectedly yours, BY.
-
Big mistake where I live. They shut down the Cranleigh to Guildford railway line immediately prior to building many hundreds of houses in Cranleigh which mean that commuters have to drive to Guildford to get the train to London which chokes up the local roads.
A survey some years ago decided that it was not worth reopening the line as a light railway as it wouldn't make sufficient profit - ie it wouldn't actually make a loss and would still be environmentally advantageous but that wasn't enough apparently. Stupid, stupid!
Colin
-
I note that they are closing the last station on the Metropolitan (Watford branch) Tube line, and diverting the track to join the suburban line which runs next to the main London-Birmingham line.
This will mean building a bit more track, but it will be more than paid for by selling the prime suburban land released by closing the station for housing....
-
Wasn't just the London and South East that got clobbered you know. Up here in the more countrified and proletarian areas the rail system was decimated.......leading to (you guessed it) more congested roads. At least in my area we have the Metro system that does cover a large area, but because it was designed a long time ago it does not reach into the huge new areas of urban sprawl.
Rather odd that the system more or less follows the same route as originally laid down in the 1880s (?). But does go to Newcastle airport and St.James Park. (a footy ground for those who couldn't give a toss about footy). But, a bit like Virgin, the entire system misses out rather large connubations only a couple of miles north of the Tyne......where most people live. BY.
-
I understand they are considering rebuilding the Borders line to Edinburgh - and maybe even having a line from Glasgow to the airport - though I'm not sure about the current status of that plan.
-
yes indeed.....there's a movement gaining pace to re open the branch line between Poulton le Fylde and Fleetwood which closed in the 1970's....most of the track line is still there, but planning and money still has to be found.....usual story.
neil.
Might need a great deal of both - they built Amounderness Way (A585) on the last couple of miles, and they would probably have to terminate at Freeport (Wyre Dock as was). If they went the light railway route, they could well hook into the existing Blackpool Tramway system. Trams to Poulton Le Fylde. That would be a blow for civilisation. :-))
In his eagerness to do his masters bidding, Beeching's creative accountancy did spot and remove a lot of untenable lines, but he also threw out the baby with the bath water in a huge number of cases.
-
I'm certain that the late lamented Dr Beeching must have a cousin who works for the NSW government. In 2004, the branch line from Casino to Murwillumbah, through Lismore and Byron Bay, was closed by the government of the day. The reasons given included lack of patronage. However, the timetable was gradually altered to a point where the train departed Lismore for Sydney at 11pm, instead of the previous 5pm, making it very inconvenient for prospective travellers. As a result, patronage naturally dropped off, whereupon the government cried "no one is using our service, so we will close the line". This despite the fact that tens of thousands of dollars had been spent refurbishing Lismore and Murwillumbah stations shortly prior to the line's closure.
In the mean time, the Queensland government has been gradually extending the Brisbane to the Gold Coast line ever southwards, meaning that with the construction of a short length of line between Murwillumbah and Coolangatta, an alternative Sydney to Brisbane rail link could have been established. This blatantly obvious fact seems to have escaped our politicians' notice. No surprise there <*<
As a result of the closure, buses now travel between Murwillumbah and Casino to meet the Brisbane to Sydney trains, inconveniencing travellers and further adding to road congestion.
Peter.
-
He also has relatives in Queensland. >>:-( >>:-(
Recall when the Brisbane to Gold coast line was closed, it was because the Politicians received assurances, {-) {-) {-) that trucks could do daily deliveries to Brisbane and vice versa >>:-( so we don't need to maintain an expensive railway. {:-{ {:-{
Aha, but now that traffic congestion has slowed the trucks O0 O0 {-) {-) we have rebuilt, albeit only the passenger section from Brisbane to the Gold coast. :(( :((
Very astute decision makers who lined the pockets of the trucking companies at tax payers expense. <:( <:( <:(
-
Peter & RaaArtyGunner {:-{ Dr Beeching's third cousin %% is head of our railways down here near Port Kembla & the Gong
We have approx 2000 truck deliveries of coal per 24 hours @ the Port Kembla coal loader.........80% could be rail freighted if they completed the Maldon to Dombarton rail link...........
Now the Chinese have acquired agricultural land in the Liverpool plains [to convert the land to mining] & plan to rail freight the coal to Port Kembla bypassing the bottleneck of Newcastle
Not good for OZ....
1. the Liverpool plains area is food bowl land for OZ
2. the coal is sold @ world market prices........ but is non renewable
3. if we don't own the coal....little value stays in OZ...apart from direct wages & taxes..... <:(
4. many OZ nationals are not happy with the current Government {:-{ :(( >:-o >>:-( <*< ..................Derek
-
At least Melbourne still has its trams.
Some of them are still running from the 1920's (some even from well before) and are supposed to be a tourist attraction >>:-(
The lines run down the middle of the roads and are designed to slow the rest of the traffic as much as possible. {:-{
-
Our Bluebell Line is doing well...
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/ext/extprog.html (http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/ext/extprog.html)
-
At least Melbourne still has its trams.
>>:-(
The lines run down the middle of the roads and are designed to slow the rest of the traffic as much as possible. {:-{
It's an old form of traffic calming %) %) :} :}
-
Tobyker the last I read about the route from Edinburgh to the borders is that they now own all the land and have carried out a survey
and the intention is to re-open the line between Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank about 36 miles and as the first 8 miles is part of another
line they will have to re-build 28 miles and had hoped to have it open by 2014. I dont know whether it will now open after the cost
fiasco of the trams. I think they will be frightened of costs spiralling out of control. Watch this space.
Geoff
-
Nearly every day I think to myself 'This line would be commercially viable if it was still open'. However I do think that Dr Beeching saved British Railways from compete collapse. Had he not done his job and the railways went bankrupt, the government may have shut down allot more lines than Beeching ever proposed.
Ali.
-
I accept, grudgingly, that Beeching was merely cutting costs and that I look at these things from the point of view of one who would have preferred to STILL see steam engines roaring around (BRs plan was to phase out steam in 1982 (sic) but do you not think that ALL train systems are woefully expensive and must, simply must, be supported by taxpayers money?
I tried to take my three boys on a spontaneous day out last half term, just from Salisbury to Plymouth down the coast line. Total cost? well over a hundred quid. Net result? In the car to Southampton instead. I can fly to Ibiza for less than I can train to Devon. Something's badly wrong. But it has always been wrong and I think its just very expensive to run trains. It should be state funded IMHO.
And steam driven!!!
D
-
Hi Dodgy geezer reference Watford Met line station, which is also my nearest station! There is an underlying problem that at night when there are no trains running they have to be stored somewhere and Watford Met station is ideal. I don't think that decisions have been made yet and local people / commuters specifically live there to commute into London.
I must say I use the line a lot but travel from the next station down the line as the parking is easier / cheaper!
On the general point I think maybe Beeching triggered off all the restoration and preservation lines that we have. These have become good tourist attractions and interested those who would have loved to have been engine drivers, who now run them.
I suppose this turns the UK into one big tourist centre! After all we did start the Industrial revolution! I watched a cable channel programme where it was suggested that the copper cladding of our sail warships (being a vast enterprise) was the trigger point for the start of the Industrial revolution, nice thought that!
regards to all Roy
-
... Total cost? well over a hundred quid. Net result? In the car to Southampton instead. I can fly to Ibiza for less than I can train to Devon. Something's badly wrong. But it has always been wrong and I think its just very expensive to run trains. It should be state funded IMHO.
And steam driven!!!
Aircraft are cheap because nobody needs to pay to maintain the air between the destinations. (Though you could argue that ATC is such a cost...)
Trains and cars both require a maintained track between destinations. But roads are paid for out of general taxation - the road fund hypothecation has always been controversial ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund ). Trains alone have to bear a large proportion of track maintenance (and the consequent staffing costs) out of passenger income... <:( <:(
Steam drive would be wonderful - if someone could invent a steam train which could be started as rapidly as a diesel or electric one... {:-{
-
Steam drive would be wonderful - if someone could invent a steam train which could be started as rapidly as a diesel or electric one...
Didn't some early steam cars work on flash steam principles?
-
Didn't some early steam cars work on flash steam principles?
You still have to get something very hot! I suspect that will take a few minutes....
It's probably not impossible - and flash steam would be more or less mandatory if you wanted efficiency, because you wouldn't want to throw away a tank full of hot water at the end of a day. But you would almost certainly end up less efficient than an electric motor. I wonder whether a 5 or 10 minute starting pause would be acceptable...
-
The last of the Stanley Steam cars had a quick warm up time as flash steam. Its interesting to note that there
is research into using the waste heat from a petrol engine to generate steam to power an extra motor.Please
remember that at least 70% of petrol fuel burnt is wasted as heat. So this idea shows promise. John.
-
Found this on Wiki, almost an instantaneous start on later cars. One does wonder if today's technology could improve on the MPG.
Colin
Stanley Steamer
Perhaps the best-known and best-selling steam car was the Stanley Steamer, produced from 1896 to 1924. Between 1899 and 1905, Stanley outsold all gasoline-powered cars, and was second only to Columbia Electric in the US.[2] It used a compact fire-tube boiler to power a simple double-acting two-cylinder engine. Because of the phenomenal torque available at all engine speeds, the steam car's engine was typically geared directly to the rear axle, with no clutch or variable speed transmission required. Until 1914, Stanley steam cars vented their exhaust steam directly to the atmosphere, necessitating frequent refilling of the water tank; after 1914, all Stanleys were fitted with a condenser, which considerably reduced their water consumption.
In 1906 the Land Speed Record was broken by a Stanley steam car, piloted by Fred Marriott, which achieved 127 mph (204 km/h) at Ormond Beach, Florida. This annual week-long "Speed Week" was the forerunner of today's Daytona 500. This record was not exceeded by any car until 1910, and, though Barber-Nichols later held the US steam-powered record,[citation needed] the FIA international record was only broken by another steam car on August 25, 2009 by Team Inspiration of the British Steam Car Challenge (see below).
Doble Steam Car
Attempts were made to bring more advanced steam cars on the market, the most remarkable being the Doble Steam Car[5] which shortened start-up time very noticeably by incorporating a highly efficient monotube steam generator to heat a much smaller quantity of water along with effective automation of burner and water feed control. By 1923, Doble's steam cars could be started from cold with the turn of a key and driven off in 40 seconds or less. When the boiler had achieved maximum working pressure, the burner would cut out until pressure had fallen to a minimum level, whereupon it would re-ignite; by this means the car could achieve around 15 miles per gallon (18.8 litres/100 km) of kerosene despite its weight in excess of 5,000 lb (2,268 kg). Ultimately, despite their undoubted qualities, Doble cars failed due to poor company organisation and high initial cost.
-
Found this on steam cars in a very old engineers book. Unfortunatly the quality of the book is now poor.
(http://s2.postimage.org/32asf1oys/Steam_for_cars.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/32asf1oys/)
-
Might be a better bet than electric maybe!
Colin
-
Might be a better bet than electric maybe!
Colin
yes - the downside of electric is the need to carry heavy batteries (though technology might improve this). The downside of a steam engine is carrying heavy water. You might get round this by condensing and re-using - but then you really can't tell that it's a steam engine at all.
Of course a small fusion reactor might use steam as a heat-exchange medium - I seem to remember one being used in a car in a film some time ago... :D
-
Fusion power holds great promise. What i dont understand is why theres not more research on this. John.
-
John they have been researching fusion for years - my brother worked at Culham in oxfordshire for 10 yrs and that
is the Joint European Torus (which is the machine in which they try to produce plasma for nuclear fusion )- there
are three plants in the workd - I think Japan, here and the US and they are making very very slow progress
I believe they have to produce temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun as part of the process. I'm not
up to date with it now as he has been left for several years. I do know this is costing a fortune but will be worth
it if they crack the problems.
Geoff
-
John they have been researching fusion for years ....
It'll be good if they ever get it going - in the meantime the Thorium fuel cycle shows great promise for a chain of cheap, inherently safe fission reactors, and India has the lead on this one. Google 'Kakrapa-1'...
-
Our Bluebell Line is doing well...
And a great little line it is, too, in a lovely part of Britain. I've travelled on it on 2 of our trips to the UK.
Peter.
-
Taking my boy for a trip on the Mid Norfolk Railway today. It mainly runs heritage diesels but they do run steam also.
http://www.mnr.org.uk/.
Ali.
-
I saw a program years ago about a steam train runnin on some form of oil hat produced far less emmissions than diesel, and took hardly any time to warm up! Always wished steam would make a return, there's just something so 'right' about steam trains, especially the mallard!
-
There has also been a loco fitted with a gas turbine, Obviously not that successful though.
-
One of the turbomotives problems was to set back it needed a second turbine, which produced insufficient
power to be able to set back a train. The engine is in Essex or was. Sadly the turbine is sectioned in the
science museum. So probably will not run again unless converted to pistons. John.
-
Thursday 7 July ITV1 7.30pm (19.30) - Meltdown on the Railways - appears in the Radio Times NW/Yorks/NE, best to check in your own region though.
-
There appears to be a bit of confusion here.
The GAS turbine loco was built by Brown Boveri for the BR (W) as a trial. As they were into trying different transmissions, this one was classed as non-standard and removed when they selected diesel hydraulic transmission as their future system.
The Turboloco was a Stanier Pacific converted to steam turbine drive. From history, not a very successful effort with reliability problems and poor steaming quailities (lack of blast from the normal four cylinders providing poor steaming?).
Regards.
-
Sweeper . You are correct sorry. As the thread was about steam i posted about steam turbine. The Americans
built and ran big gas turbines. What a sound and what pollution. John.
-
Ah I'de forgotten about 18000. I was thinking of GT3. Still the nature of jet engines do not lend themselves to locomotive traction.
(http://s3.postimage.org/2stvsfh50/images.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2stvsfh50/)
-
Hows this for planning? Our local Bus Service runs once an hour to the Station in our nearest town ( About 5 Miles away) There is from there an hourly Service to Duisburg, Kleve, and cologne. The Bus arrives 5 minutes after the Train departs, German efficiancy!
Just heard this morning that Siemens has got the contract to build new Stock , beating Bombardier who are based in Derby. Bad mistake, Siemens build the ICE high speed trains, which constantly break down and are completely un reliable. Also Siemens is notorious for corruption and paying Bribes to obtain Contracts, they have been fined several Millions, more than once, together with Ferrocrete, MAN, Daimler Benz, VW,BMW,and many other German Companies.