Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Other Technical Questions... => Topic started by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 07:11:56 pm

Title: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 07:11:56 pm
Been out with the Jules Verne to maiden here,having a bit of trouble with the prop rotation, firstly the throttle stick is working backwards its a Planet Tx 5 which i changed the spring for the throttle whether thats caused a problem[Mode2]
So i am getting slightly confused to which way the props should rotate ie Forward/Backwards i have been told with having two rudders can have a bearing on the rotation,any help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: pugwash on July 15, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
Albert - I havent got round to using mine Planet 5 yet as I havent started to build it is going into
but you could surely reverse the servo on that little panel - someone recently did a review of the 5
if you look it up you should be able to sort out your problem

Geoff
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 08:20:50 pm
Geoff. Do you mean the throttle [change that round] at the moment looking from the back the left prop is going anti-clockwise [showing a red light on the fuse board] and the right prop going clockwise showing a green light on the fuse board.when you pull the stick back for reverse both the props go clockwise [which way do they rotate in reverse by the way]


Colin
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: triumphjon on July 15, 2011, 08:44:34 pm
normally on a twin motored model the props should rotate in opposite directions , both of my huntsmans are contra rotating , when veiwed from behind the model the left prop rotates to the left ( anti clockwise ) while the right prop is turning to the right ( clockwise ) . do you have a separate speed controller for each motor ?
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on July 15, 2011, 08:51:18 pm

It does sound like your RH prop is not reversing.  Are they controlled by ONE stick ?  In which case the speed controller for it is failing to go backwards.

ken



Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 09:00:04 pm
Ken. Yes they are both on one stick,also what is causing the red light on the fuse board to come on when going forward,i hope its not esc for gods sake or that will open a can of worms.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 09:07:07 pm
normally on a twin motored model the props should rotate in opposite directions , both of my huntsmans are contra rotating , when veiwed from behind the model the left prop rotates to the left ( anti clockwise ) while the right prop is turning to the right ( clockwise ) . do you have a separate speed controller for each motor ?

Jon. No i dont have a seperate esc for each motor,could you just tell me which way they rotate in reverse is it the opposite of forward.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: craftysod on July 15, 2011, 09:24:47 pm
Albert,
Are you using a l/h and r/h props or both same.
Some fuse boards show green light for forward and red for reverse,because of the poliraty of the current
Mark
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 09:36:11 pm
Hi Mark. Yes  one is LH [red light] and one RH [green light] thats going foward.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: craftysod on July 15, 2011, 10:28:19 pm
Ignoring the lights on the fuseboard for the moment,wire one motor at a time not through the board and see what happens.
I have had two identical motors,that when you reverse the current spin at different speeds.
looks like the fuse board is trying to correct the current to flow in the same direction so both motors spin same way in reverse.Yes they should spin opposite way to forward
Mark

I stand to be corrected by the elektristy wizard on here
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 15, 2011, 10:42:45 pm
Mark. I will try that but when you put them in reverse mode both the motors rotate clockwise.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 16, 2011, 08:59:53 am
Change the wires over on one of the motors.

Red to neg and black to pos.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 09:51:45 am
Will that effect the rotation going forward.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: wartsilaone on July 16, 2011, 10:24:08 am
Richard has a point. Don't really understand it but it is standard practice on boats with twin motors.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: treeboa on July 16, 2011, 10:24:48 am
you do have left and right handed props on the boat ??
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 16, 2011, 10:35:09 am
He is using LH and RH props so motors need to be wired so one turns one way whilst the other turns the other way, so they need wiring as I said.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 10:37:22 am
Thanks for that Richard will give it a go.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on July 16, 2011, 11:54:16 am

A mystery   %)

I prefer separate speed controllers. It does rectify problems like this.   ok2

Ken

Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Netleyned on July 16, 2011, 12:11:27 pm
My reading of it is that going ahead the props turn in opposite directions as they should do if wired as Richard explains
Seemingly when the stick is put to astern only one motor reverses which is a bit confusing.
Is there a diode on the power dist board?
You could try connecting both motors direct to the esc as Richard says and running out of the water should not be a problem with no fuse board

This will show if the ESC is reversing both motors.

I go with Tug Kenny though two motors two ESC's


Ned
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 12:39:03 pm
Reversed the cables on the portside motor,so now i have both forward motors going clockwise and in reverse the port motor going  anticlock-wise and the starboard motor going clockwise.


Colin

Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Netleyned on July 16, 2011, 01:16:28 pm
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P95.pdf

If you are using Action P95 fuse boards as I strongly suspect
Check the wiring is exactly as the diagram for twin motors, 1 ESC as on the diagram on the link above

If all else fails talk to Dave ACTion  :-))

Ned
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 02:11:10 pm
Ned. I am using 2 X P95 fuse boards,according to the drawings i have got them wired correctly with the red diod showing when one motor is in reverse,i have reversed the wires as dickyd suggested but that did not correct the problem.
At the moment the props are working correctly going forward one going anti-clockwise the going clockwise if you put the motors in reverse they both go clockwise,change the wires on one of the motors and the reverse happens as above.
I spoke to Dave on thursday from the waterpark and he said he did not know what the problem was.

Colin

Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: ACTion on July 16, 2011, 02:28:48 pm
I do know what the problem is but it couldn't be fixed either over the telephone (while you were at the waterpark) or by posting on an Internet forum.
The P94 unit has been damaged and requires repair. Send it back.
DM
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: craftysod on July 16, 2011, 02:43:13 pm
As i diagnosed before,the fuseboard is the problem,as the expert has said.
Lucky guess i presume
Mark
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Netleyned on July 16, 2011, 03:04:58 pm
As i diagnosed before,the fuseboard is the problem,as the expert has said.
Lucky guess i presume
Mark

Not so  Crafty

P94 Dual ESC and mixer not a fuseboard   O0 O0


Uncle Albert,

You could have saved us all a lot of headscratching if you had said you were in communication with Dave  >>:-( >>:-(

Ned
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 03:37:54 pm
Ned. Dave was first port of call,and as it was thursday afternoon and hes does not open friday.saturday.sunday i thought the forum was next best bet.

Colin
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: triumphjon on July 16, 2011, 06:10:24 pm
irrespective of which esc you are using , you will still require the motors to rotate in oposing directions !
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: John W E on July 16, 2011, 08:19:38 pm
hi ya Uncle Albert

I know you are speaking to Dave at ACTion and Dave has asked you to return the P94 as it is suspect.   Can you answer this query though please?

Do you have a power distribution board which supplies the power to your receiver and other electrical equipment - from your main drive battery - or - do you rely solely upon a 4.8 / 6 volt RX battery to supply the juice for your receiver and servos?

Cos, if you are relying solely on a battery to supply the juice for your RX and this battery doesnt have enough UMPH in it - and its down on volts etc., and not charged fully. It may not have the power to pull both relays in on the P94.

The other thing is have you got the P94 set up for tank steering?

aye

john
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 16, 2011, 09:07:55 pm
Hi John. The main power is from a 12v sc 5000mah racing battery and it does supply the power to the Rx via the dist board,i also have 7.2v 3700mah that that powers the bow thruster

Colin

PS. It is set up for tank steering
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: ACTion on July 17, 2011, 08:37:52 am
Ken. Yes they are both on one stick

PS. It is set up for tank steering

Make your mind up, Colin - these statements flatly contradict each other. You can't expect any meaningful replies unless you describe your set-up correctly.  Before any more time is wasted on this matter I suggest you have a good look at the instructions again - especially the diagrams which illustrate the different modes of operation -  because either you don't understand what "tank steering" is or you actually have one motor connected to the rudder channel of the receiver.
http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P94.pdf (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P94.pdf) Figs 7 and 9 are the relevant ones.
DM
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 10:11:22 am
Please bear in mind Dave statements like what you have just posted you should get you information correct first,Bob {shipmate} and myself spent at least 2 hours last night trying different options what the problem could be and tank steering was one of them,also at bobs suggestion we wired the the motors straight from the esc and that did not make any difference,and in your prevoius thread when i contacted you at the waterpark if you knew what the problem was why did you not suggest we pack the gear and go home and contact you again,i get the feeling me putting this problem on the forum as irritated you.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 17, 2011, 10:43:18 am
,i get the feeling me putting this problem on the forum as irritated you.

Very astute  :-))
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on July 17, 2011, 11:05:50 am
It does sound like your RH prop is not reversing.  Are they controlled by ONE stick ?  In which case the speed controller for it is failing to go backwards.

ken   

Hi Colin

Well you now have our full attention.     %)

A very interesting problem. I was correct with my initial statement, but ill informed of the exact details.

I have several P94's and they are Dave's gift to the boating fraternity. I have just re- read his instructions and this problem could be analysed in 5 mins by someone with a meter.

His primary statement starts at " When going forward, both Led's are RED".  I believe you stated the starboard motor Led was green.  A good starting point methinks.

Keep us informed of any other clues.   ;)

Regards

Ken






Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: triumphjon on July 17, 2011, 11:15:47 am
colin , any chance of posting some pictures of how your model is set up ?  it sounds like its a simple fault if only we could see the wiring ! as a tempory measure do you have an old wiper board controller that can be substituted for the esc / mixing unit ?
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 12:12:30 pm
Jon. All the wiring was done to Actions diagram as it is at the moment its virtually all dismantled after a session with a great and helpful guy on this forum [Bob] we tried all combinations with wiring with changing the wires on the motors that did not eradicate it
Been told by a guy at the club that it could be  "wait for it " it could be the radio,i can lay the cables down in the hull to show how i had got it wired if that will help but i am sure if bob chips in to this it might clear one or two points up
I know i am still a novice builder but you have got to have someone to turn to in distress and bob has been very good to me with his abundance of knowledge which i am grateful for.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: ACTion on July 17, 2011, 12:35:33 pm
Colin

Your call on Thursday was concerned solely with reversing the direction of rotation of a propeller (as per the title of this thread). During that call you told me that both props are identical; now it seems that they are handed. It wasn't until I read this thread that it transpires the problem may be elsewhere - and yes, I do get irritated when folk use this Forum to post just enough information to cast doubts over a product but not enough to identify the problem.

This unit supports tank steering, so use that facility to test it for correct operation of forward/reverse.

Connect the two Rx leads marked T and S to the Throttle and Elevator channels of the receiver. These correspond to the vertical movement of each Tx stick. Set the Mode switches on P94 both to ON and switch the system on. Move the throttle stick forwards and backwards and one motor should run and change direction as you pass through neutral stick (and the corresponding LED on the fuseboard will change colour). Now move the other stick and see if the other motor does the same.

If either motor fails to reverse then there is a fault with the P94. This will involve replacing either the switching transistor or the relay on one output, and will require the unit to be send back to ACTion.

If both motors work correctly then there is no fault with the P94. Either you have made an error in your connections or there is a problem with the radio.

DM
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: mersey dave on July 17, 2011, 12:43:11 pm
Hi Colin, this might sound a daft question but here goes, You say you are using the p94 which i use myself now you have two leads that go from the p94 to your RX one goes to throttle and the other goes to the rudder channel then you plug your rudder servo into the p94 . Now the thing is on most setups channel one on your Rx is the rudder but on the planet rx this is the throttle have you checked that these are in the right place, just a thought.

Regards Dave.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 01:10:01 pm
Dave. Bob and myself went through that last night you name we did it.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 01:19:36 pm
Colin

Your call on Thursday was concerned solely with reversing the direction of rotation of a propeller (as per the title of this thread). During that call you told me that both props are identical; now it seems that they are handed. It wasn't until I read this thread that it transpires the problem may be elsewhere - and yes, I do get irritated when folk use this Forum to post just enough information to cast doubts over a product but not enough to identify the problem.

This unit supports tank steering, so use that facility to test it for correct operation of forward/reverse.

Connect the two Rx leads marked T and S to the Throttle and Elevator channels of the receiver. These correspond to the vertical movement of each Tx stick. Set the Mode switches on P94 both to ON and switch the system on. Move the throttle stick forwards and backwards and one motor should run and change direction as you pass through neutral stick (and the corresponding LED on the fuseboard will change colour). Now move the other stick and see if the other motor does the same.

If either motor fails to reverse then there is a fault with the P94. This will involve replacing either the switching transistor or the relay on one output, and will require the unit to be send back to ACTion.

If both motors work correctly then there is no fault with the P94. Either you have made an error in your connections or there is a problem with the radio.

DM


Dave. I am trying my hardest to tell you that bob and myself have done all what you say,there is only  1-2 that will work the throttle and rudder in that order,i also went through it with Jerome @ SHG bob and myself done the tank steering contrary to what you might think i do KNOW what switches 1-2 are for inside the esc i have got a folder almost half full which i can go back to revise, moderated
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 17, 2011, 02:49:52 pm
Are the pos and neg wires from the P102 and the P94 wired correctly ?
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 02:50:28 pm
Planet
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 02:59:39 pm
Are the pos and neg wires from the P102 and the P94 wired correctly ?

I do beleive the top ones may be incorrect,think they should be the next block above but i think the bottom ones are ok


Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 17, 2011, 06:28:41 pm
Taken Today
(http://s2.postimage.org/1rmbthfz8/IMG_0587.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rmbthfz8/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1rmdh0sh0/IMG_0593.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rmdh0sh0/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1rmk366g4/IMG_0597.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rmk366g4/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1rmu0e9es/IMG_0595.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rmu0e9es/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/1rn2a2zvo/IMG_0594.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1rn2a2zvo/)
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Peter Fitness on July 18, 2011, 06:20:36 am
Uncle Albert, DickyD suggested that you change the wiring on one of the motors, yet photo 4 shows the same polarity on each motor. I use a P94 in my Armidale patrol boat, and wired the motors so one rotated left and the other right, simply by swapping the red and black wires on one motor. The red (positive) wire is on the outside terminal of each motor.This works both in forward and reverse. Photo below.

I also notice that Dave suggested you send the P94 unit back to him for testing and/or replacement if you thought it was faulty...have you done that?

Peter.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: colin-d on July 18, 2011, 07:00:37 am
i was just about to say exactly the same as Peter, until i had seen what he had typed...

i also have a P94, and most defiantly look at the photo`s the motors are wired up wrongly... they should be wired up as in peters photo..  :-))
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 18, 2011, 08:25:05 am
Glad someone took notice of what I said. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/indexphp-3.gif)

[Proud owner of two operational P94s.]
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 09:27:03 am
Peter. Both the motors have had the wiring reversed contary to what some people may think,as i have said in earlier postings that Bob and i spent two hours on Saturday night trying all options,Bob is sending the findings to Action today to see what Dave thinks and possibly then the unit will be sent back for testing,have a look at the diagram on the Action website and i think the wiring is correct,
I also spoke with a very respected guy in the electronics world yesterday who suggested he knew of a guy who had this same problem and problem was changing the servo to another channel.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 09:29:23 am
Glad someone took notice of what I said. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/indexphp-3.gif)

[Proud owner of two operational P94s.]

Why dont anybody.  :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 18, 2011, 10:23:13 am
Peter. Both the motors have had the wiring reversed contary to what some people may think,as i have said in earlier postings that Bob and i spent two hours on Saturday night trying all options,Bob is sending the findings to Action today to see what Dave thinks and possibly then the unit will be sent back for testing,have a look at the diagram on the Action website and i think the wiring is correct,
I also spoke with a very respected guy in the electronics world yesterday who suggested he knew of a guy who had this same problem and problem was changing the servo to another channel.

I didn't say both, I said ONE !! (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/image00334343.gif)
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: mersey dave on July 18, 2011, 10:32:52 am
Hi Colin, Having looked at your photos i have to agree with what has been said in relation to the wiring to the motors. I have had a good look at the way i have connected up mine and it is not the way you have done.
I must add that i have the P94 in my tug and have never been so happy in the way it performs, I WOULD highly recommend this unit to all that i know


Regards Dave.

                   PS. i am not having a go at you but sometimes we tend to overlook the obvious.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 10:57:03 am
I didn't say both, I said ONE !! (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/image00334343.gif)

Have you had a look at the drawings,both motors have been changed one at a time and did make no differance to the rotation on foward or reverse,i have just been and run the motors as they,forward movement is correct i do beleive starboard side clockwise port side anti-clockwise in reverse both the motors go clockwise,if i go and change the wires on one of the motors the forward motors both go clockwise and in reverse rotate as the should in reverse rotation,now i have tried this test on both motors and did make no differance at all,i have also tried to change the rudder to another channel but i think it will only operate on channel 2
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 11:10:36 am
Thanks Dave for that but i have changed the wiring on the motors that many times i dont know which is the right and wrong way.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: colin-d on July 18, 2011, 11:19:44 am
i know these might be a silly questions, and probable been asked before..!!

are the Dip switches in the P94 in the correct position..!! is the variable resistor set to about 50%

which Mode are you using on the P94..??

Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: John W E on July 18, 2011, 11:22:29 am
hi
 
I think we have over-looked the simple solution that Uncle Albert  might have done and that is to swap the motor wires over at the terminal blocks on the fuse board - %)leaving the motor wires soldered in place is a lot easier I think than getting the soldering iron out. :-))


aye

john
 
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on July 18, 2011, 11:25:01 am

Not one mention of a Meter yet.     %)

It's the only way forward.   :-))

Ken

Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: mersey dave on July 18, 2011, 11:25:38 am
Hi Colin looking at the photo you do not have the rudder servo plugged into the p94, can you confirm if you have ...........or is it plugged into the receiver, if it is plugged into the receiver this is in correct as it should be plugged into the p94 as  shown in the diagram.

Regards Dave.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: John W E on July 18, 2011, 11:35:32 am
hi i think itís time now for Uncle Albert  to box the p94 up and send it back to Dave - for the boss to have a look at the unit.  Dave will decide it is at fault or whatever.   By the time we have spent waffling on  {-)- on here Dave could have had it sorted and Uncle Albert could have been sailing. :-))
 
Aye
john
 
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 12:00:36 pm
Just changed the wires over on the starboard motor but its made difference.
(http://s2.postimage.org/2022uw55w/J_V_058.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2022uw55w/)
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: DickyD on July 18, 2011, 12:12:31 pm
Send it back to Dave Colin, he's already said he'd fix it if it is the problem.

In the time we have spent wafflling on about this Dave could have fixed it and sent it back to you.
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: shimsham on July 18, 2011, 02:44:28 pm
It went about 2hrs ago. :-))
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: Martin [Admin] on July 18, 2011, 06:01:53 pm

OK, I'll lock the topic there to give the manufactures a chance to investigate e further and post a response.

 Admin
Title: Re: Prop Rotation
Post by: ACTion on August 06, 2011, 01:53:41 pm
Further to this tale, this customer eventually sent back his P94. It arrived at 12.40pm yesterday. I tested it and found that the fault was due to a fatally damaged microprocessor. The only way this damage could have occurred was either incorrect connection to the receiver or excess voltage from the receiver. Both of these are considered to be 'user' issues and thus would preclude the unit from free repair under the terms of our warranty. However for various reasons we don't consider it worth our while to pursue payment from this person. The microprocessor was replaced, the unit was re-tested and subsequently returned to him by First Class post at 1515 hrs yesterday afternoon.
Dave Milbourn - ACTion R/C Electronics