Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: chombo on July 31, 2011, 04:29:51 pm
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Hi all just joined this forum today and must say how very helpfull the topics are i have been reading them for some weeks now, i have been model boating for some years on and off and am now scratch building a Vic Smeed plan huntsman 28 47ins i would like to ask if someone can point me in the right direction and advise me wot elect motors set up is best for this model, i would like to put twin motor in something fairly fast but not to pricey, i don't know a lot about electric motors I'm used to nitro having been into model aircraft most of the time.
thanks chombo
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Welcome I think you will find it is 42" if it is the vic smeed boat have a look at this for starters http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.0
Peter
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Hi Peter thank you for the reply, yes i got the size wrong its a 41" Reds post is brilliant i have read other parts but
not this one, i will get on and read it now.
thanks. chombo
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Hi Ive gone with 2 tornado thumper V2 4250/06 800kv motors with 60a esc on exposed shafts with p brackets,
still researching wot battery's to use, i have couple of pictures of the build as it progresses along,
:-)
(http://s1.postimage.org/j5mkq77o/P1010209.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j5mkq77o/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/j6eov3lw/P1010212.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j6eov3lw/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/j6lb0hl0/P1010211.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j6lb0hl0/)
start sheeting over next and motor set up back soon. :-)
chombo
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before you start sheeting you need to do something about shafts, I would make a pair of keels imaging the main keel and parallel. have them notch in to the bulk heads like the original does I have some pictures of a fire boat I did also where the prop comes out and the angle is important the new keels will cover the last two compartments, I have a picture of a fire boat I did that way some years ago and it worked well,I am helping with a 46" boat now but that was finished so it was a different method, there is a picture of the position Paul ( red181 ) put his centre shaft and rudder in and it is where you need to put yours, by the way your hull looks great takes me back to when I built mine a long time ago
Peter
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Hi Peter
thanks for your pictures it really helps when you can see things on pictures and paper,
i was wondering how to do the servo for the rudders i see now from your set up, i have set
my shafts at an angle of 12degrees same as the drawings, have a look at my pictures of the
set up, I'm going to use a rubber coupling as the one in the picture,
(http://s1.postimage.org/v32gific/img0019.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/v32gific/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/v3441s04/img0020.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/v3441s04/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/v35rl4hw/rubber_coupling.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
back soon chombo :-)
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not a fan of the couplings, as they can be a bit stiff are are normally used on IC boats , so what are you using for power, I am helping with a 46 fire boat at the moment that was built so we came at it from a different direction, but hear are some pictures of the rudder set up.
Peter
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Hi Chombo,
May I suggest you consider longer propshafts to reduce the angle of the propshafts as much as possible.
The shallower angle will give you a better riding attitude, specially as what you're about to install has considerably more grunt than two IC engines, specially at low revs...
Regards, Jan.
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the fire boat that I posted pictures of the rudder has 11" outer shafts this gives a nice shallow angle. on Paul's (red181) huntsman 28 42" which is single shaft he uses 12" we are also using M5 shafts , the first thing we did with Paul's was to lower the angle as the plans are old and the propulsion at the time was Ic we lowered the back of the shaft by about 1" plus extended the lengh .
if you look at Paul's boat http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.msg311874#msg311874 it is the same as yours you will see the inner end of the prop shaft is quite low
Peter
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Hi all thanks for the comments, i have moved the motor forward into the next compartment and lowered
the shaft angle, the shaft will be about 16" long m5, i think you also need a strong coupling to be on the safe side,
all good fun.
back soon chombo. :-)
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there is no need to fully move them in to the next compartment I would keep 12" as a max and go M5 as you have to watch for vibration on high speed shafts, if you are using outrunners that most people do, they should fit in the second compartment using 11" outer shafts with plenty of space if you look at red 181 he got all his running gear in the 2nd compartment even using a bulky gear box ill find a picture, what part of the UK are you in ?
PM me if you don't want to put it on the web in case you are close and you could see Paul's set up and get some ideas have you decided on motors batteries.
have a look at this and you will see the angle and postion that we got the shaft to, we decided on the Max size for a prop and made a disc to go on the prop end then got that where we wanted it and lowered the inside there will be plenty of space for 2 out runners and couplings think about using the prop shop ones bit more expensive but very strong and if you are using 2.4 ghz there is no problem with electrical noise, you will only ever have to buy them once if you run plastic ones you will buy a set a run with decent motors
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21584.0 post 24
Peter
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Hi Peter thanks for reply, the problem i have is the motor mounts cant go any lower in the hull
because the v of the hull stops them if you see wot i mean, reds has a gearbox lowering the shaft
to the keel more, my shafts are 3 & nine sixteenths centers, unless i just get them as low as i can
and keep them in the same compartment any pictures you have to help would be appreciated it helps alot, the motors are outrunners
tornado thumpers 800kv, I'm in Poole, Dorset right by the sea,
chombo
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Yep I know about the gear box I made it and did part of the fitting and it still has a part of the original motor bed , we lowered it slightly but put a 1/4 ply piece on top if you look at this picture you will see there would be plenty of space to a brushless for direct drive , the number one thing is it must be a dead straight connection that is why we use the belt system to guarantee that even when we go towards 1 to 1 in gearing, the bottom pulley in the picture is not far of the size of motor you are proberly using (what dia is the motor is it the 42mm one) if so its the same as I am using on my fire boat. I make up a bit of ply or plastic to work out the angles and spacing use a strip about 14" long and you can lay out where the shaft hole starts and the angle and if it will fit all from a scrap of wood the picture was from a small fire boat I did a few years ago there is a blog on the fire boat web site but it was a fiberglass hull but this method will still tell you if it will fit without damaging your nice hull
http://modelfireboats.com/blogs/display.php?blogid=15
Peter
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hi there chombo
If you are pushed for clearance between your hull and your motor mount, have you considered turning the motor and mount upside down so that the motor is now hanging from the motor mount? This often gives you that extra bit of clearance which you require. Making and fitting supports for the motor is a lot easier this way.
Have a look at the pics I have put on here.
Also, this will do away with trying to construct or find offset gear boxes.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31199.0
food for thought there.
aye
john
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I'm in Poole, Dorset right by the sea,
chombo
Hi Chombo
Could you put this in your profile please then members will know where you are. :}
regards
ken
ps Poole is my favourite place. Had to give up the caravan for financial reasons but loved it there.
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all the motors want is a siimple side to side mount a simple flat ally plate if you make it from some heavy ally you could water cool it the last think you want to do is box a out runner in they need plenty of air and watercooling on the front plate as the heat wells up dramatically as soon as they stop, on red181s boat we are going to water cool the new gear box plate and have a pump to circulate when stopped but he is pulling 80amps on a run according to the Data , on the new twins in the fireboat there is a brass mount on the shaft and that has a watercooling plate sandwiched between it and the motor, outrunners normally have a great big prop cooling them in a plane , so keep them wide open to the air a front Mount is simple to do I did one years ago in a fire boat for brushed motors that was a lot bigger than you will need but it gives you an idea of what I mean have you got any machining capabilities down there Mill ? this can be still done with a hacksaw and drill though make it slimmer and thicker and drill for water cooling.
Peter
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Hi Chombo, been reading with interest, looks like a really nice build you have there, and those motors look real good, cant wait to see how you get on.
Really inventive idea Bluebird, hanging motor uipside down, however, with these motors that chombo has selected
(http://s2.postimage.org/2605pn4tg/4250.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2605pn4tg/)
They will rapidly overheat as they will have no cooling under the mount, at the bottom of the hull. Whilst there will be negligible air flow the right way up, any will help! Also being outrunners, and loose items that may end up at the botom of the hull risk being caught in the motor, just a thought :-))
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Hi all and thank you for all your help, have to say reds huntsman and his thread is a real credit to him and has been
a real help to me, I'm going to be hard at it now to install the motors, reds picture is the motors I'm using they
are 42mm dia, i was going to use the v2 4260 500kv same make, they have a cooling fan in them, they were all sold out
so went for the 4250, one thing i cant see is how do you water cool the motor mount, i understand all the set
up but how does it connect to motor mounts. I will post some more pictures as soon as i have the motors setup solved.
Peter i don't have a machine workshop i have a spare bedroom i work in and do most things by hand. Reading the
fire boat blog.
chombo :-)
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you can buy or make watercooled mounts that is why I suggested a side to side in heavy ally 1/4" X 1 1/4" X 8" , you could drill holes to lighten it and drill holes from top edge to bottom edge for water cooling or use the pre made ones from the likes of astec if you want to make one ill do a sketch
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31966.msg316331#msg316331 reply 33
or
http://www.astecmodels.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=182
Peter
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yes i get the idea, have a go and make my own, if you have time for drawing scetch
would be much appreciated.
chombo
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OK ill do something today send me a email address to my PM and I will send you something it's a pity we are so far away "Up North" or you could come and see how we are doing it ill also send you a picture of our new way to do it, it's interesting.
peter
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Hi all thought id post some more pictures of the build, took Peters advice and used a 1. 1/4" x 1/4" home made motor mount
i have left out for now the water cooling holes in the mount as i think it will weaken it to much, 1/8" drilled top to bottom,
could i drill front to back or would this have little effect i dont know,the mount is bolted in so i can take it out if need be,
drilled the p brakets in and the rudders all lines up perfectly, have kept the shaft angle as low as posible so i can go up to
a 2" prop, dont think i will need to im thinking 1. 3/4" might be ok. Cut and put the ply skins on and planked the deck
i wasnt going to plank it but changed my mind its only balsa planking so i can stain it havnt tried this before so see how it
turns out if you dont trie you dont know thats me, i shal get on now to finish all the hull fit the keel band and all the
stiffners then prime the hull. back soon.
chombo :-)
(http://s4.postimage.org/29qojeaec/P1010210.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/29qojeaec/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/29sh1ctno/P1010214.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/29sh1ctno/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/29t95hq1w/P1010213.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/29t95hq1w/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28gyknulg/211.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28gyknulg/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28ha5fa1w/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28ha5fa1w/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28hf41bj8/P1010208.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28hf41bj8/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28hqosqzo/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28hqosqzo/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28i29k6g4/217.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28i29k6g4/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/28i8vpkf8/10220.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/28i8vpkf8/)
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the mount looks great , can you send me a larger picture to my email addres so I can have a good look .
You could slip one of these in between the motor and mount, just longer bolts, nice mount you will probably find if you weigh the mount you have made and the weight of two small mounts the one you have made will not be any heavier,
http://www.r2hobbies.com/eng/proddetail.php?prod=rcbp1814011
Have you seen how red181 has done the bulkhead behind the motors , he has cut the centre out and used a thin false bulkhead that is removable, you can then have a solid front roof and keep it waterproof.
Peter
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Hi To all,
I have a wooden 46" Predecent Huntsman built in the 70's, it was powered by a merco 61cc.
I would like to convert it to brushless, could anyone tell me a suitable brushless motor and ESC?
It has been suggested that I go for a Leopard 48 series or the 56 series.
Many Thanks
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Hi i don't know wether you meant to post this question for me or you meant to post as a new post,
your best bet is to look at the other posts with the same boat as yours there is plenty of good information
on them i cant advise you as i am the same as you new to this electric set up sorry i cant help further.
chombo :-)
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Hi all i have been doing other things and haven't had much time for the huntsman
i have painted the hull with plasti-kote enamel water based paint i like the finish and
its easy to keep everything clean, i fitted the windows and frames, i painted the inside
of the windows black as i don't want to see through, i have put the mahogany deck mouldings
on and stained them as the deck planking i will coat it all with matt varnish to finish,
i like reds cabin door wall removeable for access to the front cabin, i am going to just
have a pair of doors removable so i can get my hand through for access to the bec
battery, i made a box for the battery out of depron sheet its tough and easy to work
with, i have fitted the rudders, servo tray and lower deck with access to rudder workings,
i have the font cabin roof to go on with no access hatch, have put some more pictures on,
i haven't weighed the boat yet will do that when the motors and battery's are in, i will keep
the balance point around where the motors are fitted, thats it for now.
chombo :-)
(http://s7.postimage.org/ogc8i5w8n/P1010221.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ogc8i5w8n/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/e6snl9gtz/132.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e6snl9gtz/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/en2ffdpqx/8217.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/en2ffdpqx/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/f6wqm7053/131.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f6wqm7053/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/6ce9un4vr/10221.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6ce9un4vr/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/hg74fpzij/210222.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hg74fpzij/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/jjmjwib1z/70218.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jjmjwib1z/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/dwuscrxx3/6219.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dwuscrxx3/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/8fbdgghh3/50220.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8fbdgghh3/)
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whats the little battery for? Usually the esc or in your case esc's have the bec built in so you wont need the little battery for your radio gear.
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With some escapements you have to turn off the BEC if you run over a certain voltage it can also be safer to run a good receiver pack especially in a big boat that weight is not a big problem but it is desirable to keep the weight down
Peter
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I didn't want to use the bec in the esc, would have had to seal one off any way, so kept it separately on its own battery,
to eliminate any problems.
chombo :-)
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youl have to seal them both off now you know :o
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i currently have three variants of the fairey huntsman / spear , all of which have twin shafts & motors i normally run with the red lead disconected from rx to the esc , feeding the rx from a separate power source . jon
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Thanks for your help, i did seal off the red wires to the escs, i am using futaba servo S3001 will
this be OK for the twin rudders or do i need a metal geared one ? I'm using hobbywing 60amp esc
i used a setup card to set them both up the card was very easy to use, i brough a watt metre at
the same time so should be Abel to match up the best set up i think.
chombo :-)
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i dont understand why people would put up the bonus weight and expense of a receiver battery when the bec works fine :o
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i dont understand why people would put up the bonus weight and expense of a receiver battery when the bec works fine :o
because when you are running twin motors you can sometimes open up the throttle full and the voltage drops to the bec so the receiver can loose signal and so will go in to safe mode, it may only happen for a fraction of a second , if you view the traces from something like an eagle tree you will see what I mean.
peter
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oh :o thanks for educating me :-))
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as peter said and i have read on some forums they advise to use separate bec battery for the receiver
and not power it through bec of the esc, as they say its not good for the receiver.
chombo :-)
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Just lurking here Chombo - any updates?
Dave
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Hi Dave
Sorry for the delay I have some more picks to put on soon the boat is near ready to go.
Chombo :-)
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Great, Really looking forward to it.
Peter
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Some more pictures for you, nearly all done just a few small bits to do, the set up is
MOTOR TORNADO THUMPER V2 4250/06 800KV BRUSHLESS OUTRUNNER x2
BATTERY GENS ACE 5500MAH 3SELL 25C LIPO x2
ESC SEAKING 60A BURST 120A INPUT 2-6CELLS LIPO x2
PROPS GRAUPNER 45MM M5 x2 PROPS
the thing is do i need a fuse in battery wire to esc if so what size and what type ?
my balance point is about 17" from the stern will have to try the boat out to see how it
goes.
chombo :-)
(http://s13.postimage.org/42sg8y3lf/P101.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/42sg8y3lf/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/s2b5sdviz/P10155.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/s2b5sdviz/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/mv5nbf7i9/P10199.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mv5nbf7i9/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/n7hgu3x6v/P1010220.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n7hgu3x6v/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/yqza28ikn/P1010222.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yqza28ikn/)
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the boat is looking great I cannot wait to get news of it's first sail, I would go for a 50 amp fuse in the battery line (pos + ) and see how that goes you may have to up it so get a slightly bigger in case it is better to replace a fuse than a speed ctr go for blade type as they have a more positive connection I think.
Peter
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Nice to see you back on here Chombo.
As I am a nosy so and so ........... what's the other boat in pic three above?
Dave
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dont tell him Chombo, he is dead nosy. O0 you know what Scousers are like %% %%
Peter :D
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Thanks Peter I hope to take it to the lake soon, I have ordered 2 maxi fuse holders and 50amp, 60amp fuses they are
quite big so will have to be extended into the front cabin, i need a steering wheel and seats next, I mislaid one of
my cabin top vents I cant find it anywhere does this happen to any one else lol.
Thanks Dave, the boat you cant see on the top shelf is my Pat Tritle orca I scratch built this one, the mast has to be done
and the barrels made haven't got round to finishing it yet I tend to go off on another project when I get near
the end, here are some picture of orca and a huffy.
Alan :-) chombo
(http://s15.postimage.org/ewttgsdlj/orca1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ewttgsdlj/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/54mjxedav/orca.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/54mjxedav/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/lptptonhn/huffy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lptptonhn/)
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Thanks Peter I hope to take it to the lake soon, I have ordered 2 maxi fuse holders and 50amp, 60amp fuses they are
quite big so will have to be extended into the front cabin, i need a steering wheel and seats next, I mislaid one of
my cabin top vents I cant find it anywhere does this happen to any one else lol.
Thanks Dave, the boat you cant see on the top shelf is my Pat Tritle orca I scratch built this one, the mast has to be done
and the barrels made haven't got round to finishing it yet I tend to go off on another project when I get near
the end, here are some picture of orca and a huffy.
Alan :-) chombo
(http://s15.postimage.org/ewttgsdlj/orca1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ewttgsdlj/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/54mjxedav/orca.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/54mjxedav/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/lptptonhn/huffy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lptptonhn/)
yes Paul is using the maxi fuses , what is it with Veron Huntsman owners and Orcas this is red 181 orca thats his onboard soud that he can play whatever sound he wants from the tx, It's a realy nige boat on the water looks and sounds so much better than the vid very realistic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEngFE3EKg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Peter
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Hi Chombo,
What did you add as watercooling to the motomount, if I may ask?
Running it as it is (in the picture) will most likely go well in this type of weather, but when summer comes, you'll need addidional cooling...
Regards, Jan.
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if you decide you need heat sinks I can make a pair that will go on the coupling side and all you will need is longer bolts Oh and some mesurments,
Peter
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Hi Jan
I haven't added any watercooling to the motors or mounts the mounts are thick and can take away some
of the heat I hope, any way i Will just have to see what happens its a learning curve for me
as I dint know much about electric set ups.
Thanks Peter for the offer will let you know, hope two have a video of the first outing for you all to see.
Alan :-)
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Hi Alan, looking good! wish I had done twin screw on mine, maybe a project for the future! if I smash it up! :}
my seats are from a car boot sale, cut out of a large plastic toy truck, and the steering wheel was from a model boat show vendor, its white lead, I think it was scale hobbies in skelmersdale, he helped me with a few bits in nickel plate and chrome, including the front rail thingy! :-))
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Thanks Paul Ill have to go car booting for some bits some time.
I seem to slow down at the end of the build and leave some bits to finish and go onto something else,
I did take the huntsman for the first wetting it went very well but wasn't impressed with the length of run time
I had about 5mins flat out and then it slowed off the plane for 5 to 10 mins I didn't time it perhaps I need
bigger batteries I have Gens Ace 5500mah 3S 25C Lipo Battery 1 per motor at the moment, still I did like the way
the boat went I think they are a brilliant boat to have, some pictures below.
(http://s13.postimage.org/lfsmtu9hf/Picture_003.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lfsmtu9hf/)
(http://s10.postimage.org/m19c14fw5/Picture_005.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m19c14fw5/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/pshzks3hd/Picture_006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pshzks3hd/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/60p0cz6o3/Picture_001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/60p0cz6o3/)
Thats it for now chombo :-)
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that looks great have you done a video yet? run time can be a problem because of the power needed to get a big weight up on the plane, playing with props can help a lot in both speed and duration, have you got access to any GPS equipment to get an idea of speed ? we found it was the only way to get a true reading, if you look around the net there are plenty of pictures of Huntsman 28s that you can look at until you find one you want to model it after it may be handy not to have to much in the way of fine fittings until finish playing with the set up,
But you have got it well out of the water , are you sharing batteries between motors or have they got there own packs if they haven't that will double your run time straight away plus will give you a bit more speed Boats of that size can take the weight if you watch where you put the weight.
Peter
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Very nice model. I am from Upton which is near Poole. Where do you sail your models? I have a boat and sail my model boats off my boat but I am looking for somerwhere else to sail my models!
Regards Reece ;)
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Hi Reece
http://www.pryc.co.uk/ nearby? :-)
Dave
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Thanks. Yes that is nearby. I was wrongly informed by a friend that the lake was only for sailing boats
Reecee
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Hi Peter the set up for the boat at the moment.
MOTOR TORNADO THUMPER V2 4250/06 800KV BRUSHLESS OUTRUNNER
BATTERY GENS ACE 5500MAH 3SELL 25C LIPO
ESC SEAKING 60A BURST 120A INPUT 2-6CELLS LIPO
PROPS GRAUPNER 455.6a 45MM M5 PITCH 38
SEPARET BEC BATTERY 6v
I have one battery per motor 2 esc, will be trying different props see
how it goes and get a gps.
Hi Reece I run my boats in the new forest and Poole park you can sail and run electric in Poole park.
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Looking at the Overlander chart you can go to 7 cells if you want per motor , so there is room to up the speed dramaticaly if you want, but that will not give you run time.
Peter
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Thank you very much for your help
Reece
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Hi Chombo,
Congrats on your maiden run!
Regarding the runtime; my guess is the props are too large (or to coarse in pitch), try smaller ones.
When I take your guesstimate of five minutes full throttle, I get an average ampdraw of 66A...
(capacity in A x 60, divided by the runtime in minutes)
That's on the max of the specs of those motors.
Did you check the temperature of the components?
Was things warmer than they should?
Regards, Jan.