Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: thegrimreaper on November 02, 2011, 04:56:00 PM

Title: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 02, 2011, 04:56:00 PM
Ok guys am thinking of getting an OTW Vanguard with the proper drive, in December Been in touch with Bob and he sounds like a great guy. With all the bits and pieces I have collected over my modeling years I seem to have parts to fit out a WTC for the above sub barring a leveler and speed control, and can`t see th logic in me buying a WTC as all I need is tube end plates and tech racks for the inside would any of you guys who have built the Vanguard possibly supply me with the dimentions of the WTC you are using so I can attempt to make my own

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 02, 2011, 08:41:37 PM
You'll get a first class boat off Bob D. You've seen Jim Hughes boat of course, at the last Dive-in, but that uses the OTW dive module. Paul Holman scratchbuilt a WTC for his OTW Vanguard, based on a  water pump ballast system and an 80mm WTC. He used to post on here now and again, but I haven't seen him on here for an ice age.

If you want to keep the WTC below the waterline in order to minimise the size of the ballast tank, then the maximum diameter you can use is 100mm in the Vanguard. You will need to displace about 750-850ml in order to reach a scale waterline- lots of freeboard on this beast.

Any ideas on the ballast system you wish to use?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on November 02, 2011, 08:50:58 PM
Hi Mark
I built mine with a OTW tank but had a few issues.....
I couldn't put batteries under it as the diameter of the WTC was such that they would not fit and used a lead acid up front, similar to the old Ohio and Trafalgar of Sheerlines. This gave immense headaches with trimming but got there in the end. The only issue now is when the water temperature changes from that trimmed at, means it goes out of trim, if that make sense! If I was to do the job again I'd go for a smaller diameter than the standard OTW tube though longer to keep the capacity the same. This would allow the tank to go higher in the hull to get a stick of batteries under the center of gravity/bouyancy. The hull has plenty of room to manouver! My WTC is 110mm diameter - the water tank is 220mm long internaly. Water slop is an issue as well - I have web's in mine that work to a degree but if I was building my own I'd have fitted fuel tank foam that is used on aircraft tanks - bue stuff with loads of largish holes. I work at Duxford so can probably get a source address if you need one. Also I have found the hull upper traps air - I put grill over the holes in my hull to make them look kind of real..... but the water tension knocked that idea into a cocked hat unless you use mesh with larger holes! The OTW hull is great though and Bob's propulsor is very efficient too - I compared it with a similar one fromProp Shop that has fewer blades and it not as good, so I stuck with the OTW version. I still have the Prop Shop one as it is too good to look at to send back!!
I do like the Vanguard shape and it is my first nuke  - I did a Robbe U47 many years ago but sold that - and for a first go at a proper pumped water WTC type it was a good one due to it's size. If I cane be of helpwith photo's of mine let me know!
Regards
Jim
(http://s7.postimage.org/pqxhj9p2f/IMG_1750.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pqxhj9p2f/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 03, 2011, 07:46:00 AM
If the module had been 100mm instead of 110mm, then the tank could pretty much be halved in volume. A shorter tank is helpful if you're using a system with an exposed water surface like OTW or Sheerline. You'll also benefit from quicker dive times, and use less energy pumping water. I haven't seen anyone try foam baffling before, would be interesting to see if that worked in a model- won't it limit the volume somewhat?

A tip I was given regarding baffling tanks was instead of vertical baffles, install a horizontal one from front to rear at point where the tank would be full. Drill a couple of small holes to allow the air through as the tank is filled.

If you want to sling the batteries underneath the module, you will need to go for 80mm diameter tubing, as even with 100mm there will be insufficient clearance unless you're using pencells! The other option open to you is to install the batteries inside the tube, either a single pack forward of the ballast tank, or twin packs forward and aft.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 03, 2011, 08:10:00 AM
Andy you lost me their I thought that if I used 100mm or 80mm tube for the ballast tank then it would have to be longer to to hold the same amount of water that 110mm, hhmmm horizontal baffle worth experimenting with
looks like its going to be 80mm then to get a battery pack in but I also like the idea of the battery inside the module front and rear

would the batteries not be heavier when they were charged ? you are after all putting a charge into them?????  :embarrassed: :o sorry sorry

seriously Andy if I was to use 80mm tubbing for the ballast tank how would I work out how big/small it needed to be ?

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 03, 2011, 08:20:03 AM
Jim, it`s all your fault I saw your Vanguard at the last dive-in and knew I needed to have one have spoken to bob and after watching a u-tube video of a Vanguard with an ordinary prop have decided to spend the extra on the proper thing off Bob. I am looking to put my battery`s either under the module or a battery pack front and rear (Andy Subcultures idea). To prevent air bubbles under the hull top I use a bottle of washing up liquid watered down and spray my Akula to break water tension.If you have any photo`s of your build Jim then I would love o have a look at them also if you had any problems while building that I should look out for any tips whatsoever I would be greatful for

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 03, 2011, 08:40:47 AM
If your wtc is 110mm, in a Vanguard it will project above the waterline when on the surface.

That means you will need a bigger tank, as you will have to displace that volume to submerge the boat. Jim's tank is about 1500ml capacity.

With 100mm diameter tubing or less, with the boat surfaced, all of the cylinder will be underwater, so to submerge, you will only need to displace the volume of the upper hull, sail and appendages, which is about 750-800ml, or thereabouts.

If you're using a pumped pressurized ballast system, which tends to fill about 75% of the tank, for an 80mm cylinder (74mm inside diameter) you would need a tank about 240-250mm long (10"). For a 100mm diameter the tank would be about 150mm (6") long.

You could mix and match, using a central 100mm ballast tank with 80mm cylinders each end housing the batteries and radio gear.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 03, 2011, 09:03:12 AM
The Vanguard is a long thin hull, with a large flat missile deck. Even a small amount of trapped air will seriously upset trim, as the long hull will provide a greater distance for an air bubble to run up and down. The flat deck makes it easier for air to get trapped, and with a small scale of 1/100th, vents tend to be a bit on the small side.

You could make a couple of the missile hatches hinged, so that any trapped air in the casing pushes them open as the boat submerges. With a couple of those open, you effectively have a huge vent in your hull. Small weights glued underside the hatches would help gravity make them self close once the air was expelled.

If you look at subs from say WWII, the decks were full of slots and holes to enable the casing to vent quickly for rapid dive times, which could mean the difference between life and death for the crew.

With modern nukes, dive times are much more relaxed, slots and holes are a source of drag and noise, so are minimized. For models this can present a problem sometimes, as we don't want to wait minutes for our models to submerge, no matter how authentic it may be.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 03, 2011, 01:43:52 PM
next question their is two types of perspex tube i have found is extruded the best way to go ???. If so then my WTC will be 100mm with a wall thickness of 3mm will this be suitable for what I want to do ??

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 03, 2011, 01:56:46 PM
Yes that's fine. Cast acrylic tubing is generally thicker and much more expensive than extruded, so give that the elbow.

Clear plastic supplies on ebay offer good service and an excellent product.

You can also get polycarbonate tubing in this size, which you can bounce off the ground, but the price is much higher.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 03, 2011, 02:21:06 PM
Andy as always a mine field of information thanks for your time and advice

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on November 03, 2011, 05:39:58 PM
Hi Mark
I've attached some photo's that may or not be of use! The foam I mentioned earlier is a very open cell construction that is used to prevent fire in the fuel tanks - cells of around 1mm diameter.... will try and get hold of some to "show and tell" when we all next meet up - probably at St Albans at this rate! It apparently prevents the fuel from escaping rapidly out of ruptured tanks - I'll probably get put right on that by greater mind's than mine! ok2
(http://s8.postimage.org/uyapouu0x/IMG_1647.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uyapouu0x/) Front end upper hull joint with locating pins.
(http://s7.postimage.org/k1qr598s7/IMG_1649.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/k1qr598s7/)
Rear end upper hull joint - slightly angled backwards to make easier removal/fittment. Anchor nut used on the brass bracket for stainless counter sink to hold upp to lower. Pin's along the upper hull fit into logitudenly elonggated holes in lower hull to hold upper to lower rigid.
(http://s7.postimage.org/dr4vy3bg7/IMG_1643.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dr4vy3bg7/)
These are the planes control arms -  the grey one is for the front planes out of titanium I had laying about, so I thought I'd put it to use! The rear's are the curved ones. The alignment of the virtical and horizontal ones could have been done better by me, with a tad more off set between them as I made them too close and mine would meet in the middle.... which makes making the control arms so they don't fould each other fiddly - my mistake, so build in a few millimeters off set!! Also I'd try and dry fit them before fixing down the rear end of possible or you end up like me, working down a small opening akin to papering the hall through the letter box. For a good guide to building one I used Steve Neill's build thread on "SubCommittee"....  clear photo's and invaluable!! Also Paul Cooks, which is on this site somewhere, is another great thread and good photo's!
(http://s7.postimage.org/6gaaopsxj/IMG_1645.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6gaaopsxj/)
This photo show's the front hull joint with the port side screen that is quite clear in photo's of the real thing. Not sure WHAT they are for but I couldn't resist in making them "funtional" in letting air out/water in!! I used thin plastic card to "fill in" the joint a bit - same at the rear and it tend's to reduce the gap caused when cutting by the thickness of the blade used. I used a razor saw and still had a large gap that was easily fill with the card and then plastic filler - I was pleased with the results after a bit of head scratching!
I hope these have helped in some way - it's a great hull and look's good on the water!
Cheer's
Jim
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 03, 2011, 07:02:03 PM
Wrong 'Paul', Jim. Paul Holman not Paul Cook.

Link to the thread- http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14501.0

BTW, for volume calculation of all kinds of shapes, including partially filled tanks, this website really is the business- http://www.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/index.html

Saves a lot of time with the old pocket calculator.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on November 03, 2011, 07:16:07 PM
Re: Andy...... OOps! Sorry Paul!!! :embarrassed:
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 03, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
no wonder i cant find the thread Jim  :} not to worry told you before Andy mine field of knowledge do`s nowt get by you lad   :-)) cheers for the corrected link

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 08, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
Right got the ball rolling just ordered 2 pieces of 100mm X 3mm X 500mm clear plastic acrylic tube from clear plastic supplies in chesterfield also got hold of a piece of plexiglass 1200mm X 500MM X 6mm for the end caps. I am going to be busy over my weekend off  O0 O0 :-))

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 09, 2011, 06:22:35 PM
Good stuff. When you make the saddles for the wtc, it's worth remembering that in order for all the tube to be beneath the surface when the boat is surfaced and sitting at the correct waterline, the tube will need to be sitting almost on the bottom of the hull, no more than 5-6mm of gap.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 10, 2011, 08:18:43 AM
Its the little things like that, that go a long way, thanks Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 10, 2011, 06:05:36 PM
Acrylic tube has arrived today new blade sorted for jigsaw I don`t posses a lathe so the end plates will be cut out with a jigsaw and then shaped and finished with files and paper lots of work but hey I have plenty of time. Brass rod available at my local B&Q so will make a visit in the morning.

Let the fun start

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 10, 2011, 06:37:04 PM
How will you put a step into the endcaps to locate the o-ring, are you bonding or bolting two pieces of acrylic together, one disc smaller than the other?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Mankster on November 10, 2011, 08:49:07 PM
If your making end caps out of PVC, am sure a vice mounted power drill will suffice. I lot quicker and probably more accurate than sanding.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 10, 2011, 09:08:20 PM
Looks like PMMA/acrylic endcaps going by post 15.

You should be able to work to within 10 thou accuracy when bench fitting with good marking out.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 10, 2011, 11:12:40 PM
Andy yes bonding two  together one smaller also Manksters idea had gone through my mind as well glad someone else thinks that one will work

work starts friday morning

regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on November 11, 2011, 03:32:25 PM
Spinning the disks in a power drill and sanding down does work. Laborious but that is the way I did it pre-lathe.
Make the O ring disk the smaller diameter one as Ramesh and Andy suggest.
Bolt all 3 of them them together to test fit them then bond them.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 11, 2011, 08:37:16 PM
Vice mounted power drill could also try to wedge said drill into black and decker work bench now that end caps are rough cut out will be trying that in the morning got a question though

what ever happened to health and safety, drills wedged into vices or work benches if my boss saw that it would be  <*< <*< P45 time but seein as he ain't here ha ha

will start to put pics up soon

again thanks for the tips guys

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 11, 2011, 08:39:51 PM
quick question how/what to use to bond plexiglass ???

Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on November 11, 2011, 09:36:10 PM
this is what I have used to good effect :-)) O0

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50ml-TENSOL-12-Bottle-ACRYLIC-Perspex-Bonding-Cement-Adhesive-Glue-/160652606560?pt=UK_Crafts_Cardmaking_Scrapbooking_Glue_Tape_EH&hash=item2567a43c60
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 11, 2011, 09:58:08 PM
thanks Andy problem with it is that it says for indoor use only me thinks its not meant to get wet if so then I cant use it on my ballast tank

regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Sub driver on November 12, 2011, 01:19:06 AM
look in your yellow pages for any local plastic acrylic sign makers and pop along to them and purchase some of there glue. they use it in bucket loads . regards sub
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on November 12, 2011, 06:49:46 AM
Hi Mark I have used this when I made the WTC for my akula where the ballast tank ends support the end compartments and had no problems with it being effected by water
once dry it is like the plastic itself  :-))
Andy
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 12, 2011, 10:11:14 AM
cheer guys that two options open to me

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Circlip on November 12, 2011, 10:35:15 AM
Meant to post this after reply #24, "And the weapon of choice for glueing Acrylic/Perspex/Oroglas is Tensol for all applications."

  Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 12, 2011, 10:44:25 AM
If you're butting up the outer disc to the end of cylinder via an o-ring seal (axial compression) the inner ring is just acting as a mechanical 'stop' or key. Therefore the inner disc doesn't actually need to be watertight. Does that make sense?

Three or four nuts and bolts around the edge (not too close) should keep the two discs together without the need for any solvent or adhesive. To seal these bolts squirt a little mastic (silicone or acrylic) into the holes before tightening up. Brass or stainless steel countersink bolts will look neat and tidy and shouldn't corrode.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Circlip on November 12, 2011, 11:05:00 AM
Yep S/C quite correct re the seal. If push came to shove and an O-ring of the correct size was unavailable, a flat ring of sheet Rubber or Silicone could be used.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 13, 2011, 09:48:30 AM
Was thinking along the lines of silicone on the inside disk for the ballast tank with 4 rods end to end of the tank I think that would hold it together will be pressure in the tank when full so need that to be sturdely held as to the other sides of the disk was thinking of pinching/using  the way that my Sheerline Akula is done again with 4 rods from each end going to the respective end of the ballast tank so that if access is needed to the rear motor  compartment I would have to undo 4 nuts and only the rear compartment would come away. end caps are 6mm plexiglass so having 8 small holes around the out side shouldn`t put to much stress on the endcaps of the ballast tank. Any corrections to this idea would be greatly welcome

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on November 13, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
you would need to seal the threads on the rods as these will leak under pressure not sure if the silicone would hold the pressure but you could assemble it and pump water in and test it under pressure this what I did when I tested mine but I used tensol to glue the tank ends on  O0

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/crashed/IMAG0074.jpg)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 13, 2011, 10:38:34 AM
Are you running the rods external like Sheerline, or internal like Andrew is doing?

Worth mentioning that OTW use three rods in all their WTC's- a three legged chair/stool always finds it's own level.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 13, 2011, 05:48:20 PM
Thanks Andy_k for the photo but was thinking of rods on the outside of the tank.

Andy Subculture chairs/stools ??? ha ha. I know what you mean Andy but would that work/be ideal with the rods externally fitted ???

Regards Mark

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 13, 2011, 05:53:41 PM
I am planning on making the ballast tank around about 20cm long which if I have read earlier post correctly will mean that the whole sub will be lighter to lug around then when put in the pool/pond water can be taken on to lower the sub to the correct water line have I read that right ???

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on November 13, 2011, 07:03:28 PM
I am planning on making the ballast tank around about 20cm long which if I have read earlier post correctly will mean that the whole sub will be lighter to lug around then when put in the pool/pond water can be taken on to lower the sub to the correct water line have I read that right ???

Regards Mark

My water tank is 220mm long but the boat still sit's about 10mm to low in the water compared to the real thing. This I think is because I have a large diameter tank which means that there is a sizeable section of wtc above the water line on the surface. I reckon that with a smaller diameter to that which I chose could have meant less wtc above the water line, batteries under the tank and a smaller volume water tank needed to get her under. I've tried all way's to get the correct water line but have had to sette for that which I have, resulting in about 95% of the tank being filled to get her fully under - not to mention the fore/aft trim prob's due to the front mounted lead acid gel battery. I am certain Andy will have a suggestion/solution!!
All the best
Jim
(http://s8.postimage.org/m2ggyg6ch/hms_victorious_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m2ggyg6ch/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/zb1wlb6xb/hms_victorious_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/zb1wlb6xb/)

(http://s10.postimage.org/3vj0dbtfp/IMG_1751.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3vj0dbtfp/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 13, 2011, 08:02:08 PM
Jim thanks for the measurement Andy did mention placing the batts in the front and rear compartments also because I have opted for the 10cm tube that will/should help with the waterline

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: swedishprojectbuilders on November 13, 2011, 08:55:30 PM

(http://s8.postimage.org/m2ggyg6ch/hms_victorious_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m2ggyg6ch/)


Damn, this picture is nice!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 13, 2011, 11:00:13 PM
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 14, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
Andy (Subculture) would three rods on the outside of the WTC hold everything in place??. I have got 3 X 1m zink plated 4mm threaded rod would they do the job ??. Thanks in advance of your answer.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 14, 2011, 12:23:56 PM
Three rods will be fine. Zinc plated threaded rod will corrode if it's in the wet though, stainless is best, or you can use brass rod.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 14, 2011, 01:07:28 PM
Don't forget the 10cm cylinder has to sit really low, ideally flat on bottom of the hull in order for none to project above the waterline if you're hoping to minimise the size of the ballast tank and achieve a true scale waterline.

Modern Brit subs seem to be a cross between Russian and U.S design principles- we employ single skinned hulls with forward and aft free flood areas, like the Americans, but favour the high freeboard that Russian boats have.

If you're running the rods externally, that is going to increase the height of the cylinder by at least 6-7mm, so it's pretty likely that the cylinder will poke a bit above the waterline. With a 20cm long tank, assuming your pump can fill it to 75% capacity, that gives you about a litre of displacement. The Vanguard needs about 750-850ml to lift the top hull, sail, vanes and rudder above the surface to scale waterline. I've allowed a 10-15% fudge factor, as hand laid GRP hulls can vary a bit. So you have about  150-250ml in hand.

Lets assume your cylinder is 100cm long, 5mm projecting above the waterline will require about 150ml of extra volume in your ballast tank. Should be okay with that.

If it projects 10mm above the waterline, you will need an extra 400ml. Now you're going to be in trouble. So watch that height so things don't get out of hand.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 14, 2011, 02:43:53 PM
Sorry Andy I am getting lost here now I am using 1000mm tube as apposed to boneheads 1100mm. Jims ballast tank is 2200mm long and he has problems getting the sub to scale water line, question is do I need to go bigger or smaller on my ballast tank to get a truer waterline. Maybe I miss read earlyer posts but I thought if I went with the smaller tube their would be less of the WTC poking above the water,so I would need less pumped water to submerge the boat,and therfore could get away with a smaller tank. Headache comming on here  ;)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 14, 2011, 03:46:43 PM
With the OTW module, even if you drop it as low in the hull as possible, you will still end up with about 10mm poking above the surfaced scale waterline. Hence you need a bigger tank to get the boat under, or accept a lower waterline.

With 100mm diameter tubing, you should just about be able to avoid this,  but it is literally 100mm from the bottom of the hull to the  waterline, so with the rods running externally like Sheerline, as opposed to internally like OTW this effectively makes your tube fatter, because you have to allow for clearance for the rods- does that make sense?

It's quite likely that a little bit of the tube will now sit above the water surface, and I was demonstrating how this will affect the volume of the tank.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 14, 2011, 07:41:51 PM
Right thanks Andy got it now looks like I will be changing to internal rods in brass then Thanks again Andy your help is greatly appreciated

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 14, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
That will give you a possible issue with sealing the rods where they run through the ballast tank.  %%

Always something eh?!

I would still run the rods externally, but position them so they're not near the bottom of the tank, and trim the bottom of the disks so that they are level with the cylinder wall. That way the cylinder can sit as low as possible.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 15, 2011, 11:16:13 AM
 :o %% :o %% I like that idea even better Andy that is doable. Up to now taken 3 days to do two inner disks must concentrate more on the sub and less on work. (I wish ). Two days of after today so full tilt boogy on the WTC 

Thanks again Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on November 15, 2011, 05:23:11 PM
Hi
If you get the WTC as low as possible - where can you fit any lead ballast? I only ask as my tank is currently within 5mm of the hull wall at the bottom and resulted in the lead sheet ballast having to be spread out along the bottom for 70% of the WTC - if anyone out there has a better solution I will move the lead and have a winter refit! I also had to be carefull not blocking the drain holes along the underside too so I drilled through any sheet that got in the way. I supported the tank with five supports as I thought it might flex and possibly leak? Would appreciate some better mind than mine coming up with a better idea!  :embarrassed:
Jim
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 15, 2011, 06:06:21 PM
You can put the drainage slots fore and aft of the wtc, like the original. You don't really need that many holes on the bottom, although it helps drainage when hooking it out of the drink, it's more important to have more holes in the top to get rid of any trapped air.

Regarding the lead, you could cast it into rods or strips, and position it either side of the cylinder, or put it inside the cylinder if you have the space. You can also position it at either end of the cylinder.

In the case of the OTW module, the larger diameter makes things a bit more tricky. Certainly with about 1.5cm sitting above the waterline, that's eating up a lot of ballast tank volume. How long is the WTC? I estimate somewhere between 80-90cm.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 16, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
O.K. said I would post pictures of my Build of the WTC  got a few done now after a false start now got all the end plates cut out and trimmed true have now plastic welded the inner caps to the outer caps made up three baffle plates going for the conventional vertical plates with holes in (sorry Andy not using a horizontal one as an experiment, me building a W.T.C is experiment enough  OK2 ) I am using zinc rods at the moment but will be changing them for brass rods once the build gets further along

first picture is of the 1000mm tube

(http://s12.postimage.org/qm0ipatc9/DSCF2487.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qm0ipatc9/)

Second picture is the first cut which is for the ballast tank

(http://s10.postimage.org/9txa6yghh/DSCF2488.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9txa6yghh/)

third picture is the end plates inner and outer


(http://s8.postimage.org/vmhq2dpap/DSCF2490.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vmhq2dpap/)

fourth picture is the end plates glued together

(http://s12.postimage.org/b3c9jnzt5/DSCF2492.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/b3c9jnzt5/)

more to follow

Regards Mark


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 16, 2011, 08:36:02 PM
Good stuff. The horizontal baffle plate was a tip passed onto me by Ron Perrott. I notice a horizontal baffle was used in his little Aquabat model. The vertical baffles will do the job though if you're more comfortable with fitting those.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 17, 2011, 04:45:20 PM
Talking of baffle plates, I have fitted two onto the centre (what would you call it) pipe ready to seal the ballast tank

(http://s10.postimage.org/wcbpxtwc5/DSCF2494.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wcbpxtwc5/)

More later

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 19, 2011, 10:39:11 AM
Looks like you're making good progress.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 19, 2011, 06:38:46 PM
just about to seal the ballast tank not to sure if I have the size correct now I have just looked at Turbulent build from 2008 link http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14501.0  and his ballast tank looks a little bit bigger than I have built


(http://s12.postimage.org/t1jyk7515/DSCF2496.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t1jyk7515/)

if someone  (Turbulent, Subculture ) or anybody could reassure me on the size I have made mine I would be grateful
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 19, 2011, 07:27:41 PM
Don't forget he used 80mm tubing for his module, so would need a longer tank to get the right volume.

How long have you made the tank, and also what's the diameter of that conduit running through the middle?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 19, 2011, 07:53:51 PM
length of tank is 20cm and the conduit is 3/4 inch I now know that I miss understood earlier post by yourself Andy. Jims is 22cm X 11cm I now think mine needs to be longer about 28 cm X 10 cm  maybe even longer due to the conduit running down the centre

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 19, 2011, 09:10:26 PM
Assuming you can fill 70% of your tank, subtracting the conduit and baffle discs gives you about 860ml volume. Provided the wtc sits below the waterline, you'll be fine.

Jim's tank has to be a lot bigger because of the 11cm diameter tubing, quite a bit of which sits above the waterline, so I wouldn't go by that, else you'll end up with a much bigger tank than you actually require.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 19, 2011, 09:33:21 PM
Right thanks for clearing that up Andy will bond the end caps to the tube in the morning if its the wrong size when I get the hull then I will just have to remake the ballast tank thanks again Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 20, 2011, 08:44:17 AM
O.K. corrections to be made now must remember to measure twice cut once,  :embarrassed:  ballast tank is only 18cm long I was measuring from the outside of the end caps, instead of the internal size I was measuring the external size so I am going to re cut a piece of tube to 27cm that should give me an internal size of 25.8cm  O0  which is probably a little larger than is required but I would rather have the ballast tank  a little bit bigger than too small, hopefully that size of tank will be enough to get a Vanguard to submerge
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 20, 2011, 11:07:13 AM
I'd try it out in the hull first. Even with the smaller volume I think you will be okay.  At 70% full, you have over 750ml of volume, and provided that the cylinder sits below the waterline, you need to displace about 700ml. How did I come up with that figure?

The upper half the of the Vanguard hull, moulded from polyester GRP weighs in at about 825 grams. The polyurethane resin parts- sail, front hydrovanes and rudder weigh about 120 grams. Now we know that 1000ml of water weighs 1000grams, metric makes it easy. But some materials are lighter than water, and some are heavier, so be careful when using weight alone to determine the size of a ballast tank.

Many plastics like ABS, polyurethane and polystyrene are the same density as water, so we can use weight to determine displacement. But composites like GRP are denser- the glass content is what makes the difference. Then we need to adjust our figures a little

In the case of the upper hull, we don't have all of it above the waterline, and a rough calculation removes about 120 grams and I'm erring on the conservative side. GRP laminate is about 25% denser than water, so when converting to displacement we reduce the volume still further.

825-120= 705  then  705x75%= 529 ml displacement for the upper hull

The polyurethane parts are equal in density to water, so in that case we can directly convert the weight to displacement, so 529+120= 649 ml displacement

That leaves another 51 grams-  I haven't accounted for periscopes and paint, so that allows for that.




 
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 20, 2011, 02:09:25 PM
If you're indifferent to the pocket calculator method (which still has a margin of error) then here's an empirical and very accurate method of working out ballast tank volume, explained by Skip Asay.

Build your boat to the extent that everything is done except the ballast tank itself. Put it in your test tank and you'll almost certainly discover that it's light. Add whatever weight is necessary wherever necessary to get it to JUST submerge - not sink like a rock - and sit as level as possible. Something like just enough weight to have it float with just the top of the conning tower out of the water and then add just enough to get it to completely submerge. At that point, a couple of quarters would probably suffice.

Now add square or rectangular polystyrene foam blocks under the hull until the boat sits at its proper waterline. Since it's a round bottomed boat, you'll have to start by building a cradle (use foam) so the foam blocks won't just roll out from under. Make that cradle and the foam blocks you put under it approximately 4" - 6" long. When the boat is at its proper waterline, determine the cubic volume of all the foam (including the cradle) by multiplying length X width X thickness. Then convert that to the volume of a cylinder (3.14 X radius squared X length).

Another benefit to this method is that by sliding the foam fore and aft, you can determine the EXACT location for the tank.

Yes, when all is said and done, you'll have to remove weight equal to the weight of the ballast tank itself but that's a small price to pay. Plan ahead when you're adding the weight to begin with - don't make it all permanent.

Skip Asay
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 20, 2011, 05:37:12 PM
 :o :o Wow er thanks Andy I think  :} problem that I have is that I cant even order the hull until December so trying it in the hull is a no no at the moment. I can still continue with the build though and alter the size of the ballast tank as and when the time comes. I can put it all together using the zinc rods that I have test the WTC for leaks and then when the hull arrives change out the ballast tank if needed after testing in the test tank and also change the zink rods for brass. Cant thank you enough though Andy for the tips and explanations that you have given on here and the tips from the other members aswell.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 20, 2011, 06:36:17 PM
Good stuff. Hope I didn't confuse you, just trying to explain how I arrived at the figure I did.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 20, 2011, 08:03:35 PM
not at all well not a lot anyway much just truly greatful for your help on the matter Andy I want to get it right at the end of the day

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 21, 2011, 09:36:21 PM
Put a full day in today working on the WTC also started on the front tek rack


(http://s9.postimage.org/4xnb764rv/DSCF2497.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4xnb764rv/)

the overall length of my WTC is 68cm



(http://s7.postimage.org/adluo6spj/DSCF2500.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/adluo6spj/)

I have built in 2 baffles into the ballast tank

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 22, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
More done today but not as much been working on the pinch valve quite a simple device to make and fit but it holds the sub under and lets her surface can also be made to have a leak past as a built in fail safe a slow acting fail safe but free

the two main components

(http://s12.postimage.org/l07wbq0k9/DSCF2501.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/l07wbq0k9/)

and how they fit together


(http://s12.postimage.org/6m4ijzeqh/DSCF2503.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6m4ijzeqh/)

I think we all know the principle of the pinch valve

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 22, 2011, 04:18:29 PM
Coming along. If you want some stainless steel studding to replace the zinc plated stuff, these chaps are pretty good-

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/stainlessbolts/Stainless-Allthread-Studding-/_i.html?_fsub=5429090&_sid=268924222&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 22, 2011, 05:29:20 PM
Thanks for the link Andy will probably be going the brass way just attempted to fill the ballast tank and sprung a leak at the inter-connection pipe so a re-seal is in order now

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 22, 2011, 05:44:23 PM
Oaky. Are you able to get brass studding cheaply? I've always found it a bit tricky to source- brass rod is easy though.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 22, 2011, 06:33:33 PM
Brass rod available from B & Q 5.odd for a 3 foot length, I have a tap & die? set for threading so not a problem. Will retest ballast tank tomorrow evening

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 22, 2011, 07:23:09 PM
Ah okay. Agreed, rod is easy enough to source and cheap(ish). Brass studding is more difficult though. The only alternative to purchase, is screw cutting your own. Running a die beyond an inch or two of thread isn't practical, you end up with a wonky thread.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 23, 2011, 10:32:47 PM
Success  :-)) ballast tank now sealed and holding over 1Ltr of water don't know whether to use an ESC for the pump or two micro switches, using an ESC will allow me to pump both ways with varying speed where as two micro switches will pump both ways but at full speed only. plus I would have to ask somebody in the know for a wiring diagram on how to connect two micro switches together to give forward and reverse on a motor.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 23, 2011, 11:16:44 PM
MAG speed control, second item down on the page- http://www.rctankcombat.com/articles/speed-control/

Sounds like you're using a geared pump, as opposed to the centrifugal type,
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 23, 2011, 11:42:54 PM
Pump is one of these Andy but you cant see the cogs on mine because the one I have works HE HE HE (I hope David dosn`t mind but i nicked the picture from his topic on the AMS site )
(http://s8.postimage.org/um5gntw3l/gear_p10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/um5gntw3l/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 24, 2011, 04:49:07 AM
It'll take a while to fill the tank with one of those pumps. Unfortunately most geared pumps are a bit slow, a Kavan pump is a bit better, but would still take more than 30 seconds to fill up 1 litre.

I thought you would use a centrifugal pump like the Sheerline modules. The pumps used on cars with xenon headlamp washers are worth a look- designed for volume and pressure. e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Pressure-Headlamp-Washer-Pump-Audi-TT-98-/290580454074?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43a7f1daba
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on November 24, 2011, 05:11:24 AM
It'll take a while to fill the tank with one of those pumps. Unfortunately most geared pumps are a bit slow, a Kavan pump is a bit better, but would still take more than 30 seconds to fill up 1 litre.

I thought you would use a centrifugal pump like the Sheerline modules. The pumps used on cars with xenon headlamp washers are worth a look- designed for volume and pressure. e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Pressure-Headlamp-Washer-Pump-Audi-TT-98-/290580454074?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43a7f1daba

 they make great bow thrusters , much better than a prop in a tube. they have instant push

Peter
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on November 24, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Nick away, Mark!  :D

I hope that you have read the rest of the thread on the AMS Forum, though. The red pumps are not the very long lasting pumps that they once were. They still fail safe though!

Which raises the point that the pump you use is so critical in model subs that just grabbing one from Halfords or ebay or a car scrap yard is not really good enough. You need to use one that is known to work well over the long term and that you can re-order.

That is why the present difficulties with the red pump are a bit of a nuisance because it has been the mainstay of the pumped pressure system for many years. (I have been in touch with the suppliers but I suspect that nothing can be changed because I believe that manufacturing has moved from France to China. I will keep you in touch if I hear anything more.)

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on November 24, 2011, 10:14:33 AM
Just thought I would add a more positive note about these pumps, Mark.

They are still good and quick (a good part of  a litre in a few seconds even with the pressure system) and I'm still continuuing to use them (e.g ORP Dzik will be in the Barrow pond on Sunday.) Just treat them with a little more caution  than in the past.

Good luck with the build - it's  looking good!

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 24, 2011, 02:34:51 PM
I think luck might be on my side with the pumps David both pumps that I have, have been hidden away for the last five years in a box in the loft that I had forgoten about was really made up when I powered them up and they both work and are reversable as well, but will be cautious with them anyway. Andy has kindly supplied a link to a seller on flea bay that sell pumps anyway so might just buy one of them as a back up. thanks for the info David

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 24, 2011, 04:49:26 PM
My Chinese pump is good for half a litre in about 25 seconds with the pump running on 12 volts and against no pressure.  For Mark's Vanguard 1 litre tank you're looking at double that time.

You can still find the original French made pumps as dead stock in some model shops, they were distributed by Ripmax for use as fuel pumps and they're recognisable from the oriental versions as the plastic is light orange and matt in texture, plus they have the manufacturer and country of origin moulded into the case.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 24, 2011, 05:48:28 PM
Tank was filled to approx 70% in about 40 seconds which I think is quite fast enough and was empty in about 1 min unpumped but approx 30 secs pumped which I think I will be happy with

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 24, 2011, 07:30:39 PM
Fairy snuff. Should be close to a scale dive time- modern SSBN boats take several minutes to dive.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on November 24, 2011, 08:49:51 PM
You have got some very good information there, Andy.

Can you let us all know which model shops have the red pumps as "dead stock?"
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 24, 2011, 11:06:10 PM
308 hobbies had some last time I poked my head in there. Also I recall Paul Cook mentioning he had some in stock a while back. I expect other model stores will have the odd one or two tucked away, they were a pretty common pump.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on November 25, 2011, 01:05:20 PM
Many thanks! :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bijou on November 25, 2011, 02:35:49 PM
You can still find the original French made pumps as dead stock in some model shops, they were distributed by Ripmax for use as fuel pumps and they're recognisable from the oriental versions as the plastic is light orange and matt in texture, plus they have the manufacturer and country of origin molded into the case.

HI,
Do You have by "accident" a picture with these pump?. :-)  ;)
Many Thanks in advance ,
                   "bijou"
@thegrimriper
"I watch every step you make,every move you do",so be careful what are you doing ( <*<),because I intend to learn from "your mistakes" {-),and tray to NOT repeat them!.

I kidding of course because I want to build also these sub,some day!.
Can I ask where did you get the plans for it?,and how much did costs?.
THANK YOU.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on November 25, 2011, 03:10:58 PM
Hi Mark,

Would the 2nd pump down on this site be of no use to you??

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/water_pumps.html

It claims 2200ml per min,

regards
adam
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on November 25, 2011, 05:11:36 PM
Also had a quick look overseas.

http://www.mikessubworks.com/page1.html

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 25, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
That's a centrifugal design. Some make good pressure others don't. Headlamp washer pumps make 40psi- as they're designed to lightly pressure wash the lens of the headlamp. The flow rate is good too.

Picture of the two geared pumps, with the Chinese version on the top pic. Harder shiny plastic, with a redder colour and a sickly yellow coloured front piece.

(http://s8.postimage.org/nr90t48v5/KGr_Hq_IOKp0_E5_p_RJc_BO_U_y_TYI_60_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nr90t48v5/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/vr7dm55av/EWP13_pers_700_01.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vr7dm55av/)

I've also seen this pump moulded in black plastic, but I think that is a 24 volt version. I've also seen another version with an extended body, perhaps this houses a larger motor? http://www.wiperblades4u.co.uk/12v-Washer-Pump-EWP86.html

This website offers a wide selection of pumps, both geared and centrifugal- http://www.wiperblades4u.co.uk/replacement-washer-pumps/

Interestingly they're still showing the original French Pump, although I'd enquire about that before handing my money over. Also interesting is that unlike many sites they show the flow rates of many of the pumps.

BTW, when mounting these pumps in a submarine, if you have the space, try and mount them vertically with the hose connections pointing downwards, this helps keep the gears wet and enables them to self prime.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 25, 2011, 08:04:30 PM
Adam thanks for the links had a look but I think I am going to stick to the pump I have as apparently its a good`un made in France and it seams to pump at a fast rate in both directions just got to mount it then source the tek rack mounts  after that it will be time to test it out in the upstairs test tank which at this time of year is a god send  {-)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on November 25, 2011, 11:32:51 PM
No worries Mark,

I've actually bought one of the audi headlamp jobs that andy linked.

I to am at the decide what goes where what to use etc.
Trial and error....

Watching this build with great interest

regards
adam
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 28, 2011, 08:56:30 AM
Ok had a bit of a setback over the weekend was redesighning the tek rack for the fromt chamber to give myself a bit more room,spent the day cutting out and ensuring everything would fit put the said tek rack down for about 5 mins then calmley knocked the tek rack off the workbench onto a stone tiled floor from about 3 foot you can probably guess what happend next. ahh well back to the saw tonight.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on November 28, 2011, 09:31:23 AM
I'd put money on the fact that you said 'oh gosh and bother it'....or something like that.    %)



Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 28, 2011, 09:55:29 AM
Was funny Rich I just sat their looking at the floor shaking my head was that dissapointed in what I had done (leaving the piece on the workbench) while doing something else on the workbench even the wife asked why I wasnt swearing, but hey worse things happen at sea. I have the technology to rebuilt it ha ha ha

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 28, 2011, 03:47:05 PM
That's the main snag with acrylic- doesn't bounce too well!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 29, 2011, 09:16:40 AM
second tek rack now cut out from sheet and servo holes cut think the problem with the first one was the whole I had cut for the pump so I called at halfords and bought a smaller sized pump similar design to the orange pumps but only half the size will be trying it out later in the week and will report back with a couple of photos as well. oh yes and this time I will not be leaving this piece on the bench  :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on November 29, 2011, 10:34:58 AM
That must be a very small pump then, as the orange ones aren't exactly huge!

You could always get some lexan/polcarbonate sheet, you can bounce that off the walls and it won't break.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 29, 2011, 11:02:47 AM
The main problem with the 1st rack was that it needed a large hole for the pump to fit into the tube the second problem was the drop from 3 foot workbench which I will not be repeating. plus space was a bit tight now though it looks a little bit neater with more room on the surface for fixtures and no big hole for the pump to be fitted
thanks for the tip on the lexen though Andy.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 30, 2011, 10:23:47 PM
Picture of a French made Orange water pump and the new smaller pump purchased from Halfrauds which will be fitted in place of the larger pump the smaller pump pumps just as fast as the larger one but runs a little bit warmer.


(http://s10.postimage.org/ey02z4vkl/DSCF2507.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ey02z4vkl/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on November 30, 2011, 10:49:22 PM
Hi Mark the new pump you got there looks a lot like one I got from a local factors I found it gave a lot of radio interference thats something you want to check out before installing it
Andy
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on November 30, 2011, 10:56:02 PM
Thanks for that Andy will check it out before it gets fixed down I noticed that their is no capacitors across the electrical contacts if it do`s produce interference I will try fitting them

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 03, 2011, 01:22:20 PM
Finely got the front tek rack finished after a couple of false starts. I think it looks quite neat both on top and the underneath. The two micro switches allow the pump to pump both ways, with the pinch valve holding back the water in the tank when submerged. Cant wait now to order the Sub hull from OTW in the next couple of weeks. I only have to sort the motor mounting and some sort of seal (simmering ??) for the motor prop shaft connection.


(http://s9.postimage.org/4o4dger8b/DSCF2513.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4o4dger8b/) picture of the top side of the tek rack.



(http://s12.postimage.org/delhjj215/DSCF2514.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/delhjj215/) picture of the underside of the tek rack.

the radio Rx will be fitted on the underside below the pinch valve.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 03, 2011, 02:03:51 PM
Looks very nice work Mark...now make sure that this one is safe when you put it down on the bench!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 03, 2011, 02:13:14 PM
That looks good.

Simmerring is just Freudenbergs trade name for an oil seal.

A 4mm shaft on the vanguard is about right. You can purchase them in quantities of 25 at a time from BSL Brammer (google for your local branch) who distribute Freudenberg products here in the UK, or you can purchase them in smaller quantities from the likes of Engel or Norbert Bruggen- a bit more expensive that way. There are companies over here that also supply small oil seals.

http://modelluboot.de/Zubehoer/Dichtungen.html#WDR

The other method used for sealing shafts is a compressed o-ring gland. That's what you have in the Akula. A little more friction, but not very much, and o-rings are cheaper and easier to source.

Have you decided on a motor yet?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 03, 2011, 03:49:00 PM
I have got a couple of Graupner Speed 600 eco motors but I have just noticed they run on 7.2 volts hope to run on 12 volts so they wont do the job. open to suggestions on the motors Andy.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 03, 2011, 05:02:55 PM
If you want a 500 size motor,  the Graupner 500E is a 12 volt motor which will give about 12000RPM at 12 volts. This will need gearing down, to around 2000-3000RPM to drive the propulsor,  which means reduction somewhere in the region of 4 or 5:1.

MFA/Como do a nice 12 volt 500 size motor with planetary gearbox at 5:1 already fitted, which is worth investigating- http://mfacomodrills.com/gearboxes/942d_series.html

Whether you go for the lower or upper end of that RPM range is dependant upon the performance you are after (scale speed will be about 3.5knots). The Vanguard is a long streamlined sled of a boat, so quite slippery.  The propulsor looks very cool, but doesn't appear to be as efficient as a conventional prop in model form (too many blades I think). To further complicate matters, the propulsor you will get is different to the one I have. Dave Merriman made new masters for the propulsor (along with the sail, rudder and hydrovanes) going from a 15 blade design to an 18 blade design with a different blade shape.

Both the earlier prop and the later prop were tried out in Jim's Vanguard at the Summer Dive-in, the later 18 blade prop proved to give better thrust.

However I have carefully reworked my propulsor by re profiling the blades of my prop to make them thinner, sharper, and give them more curve.


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 03, 2011, 06:03:50 PM
Thanks for the info and the link Andy. I think I will be going for your suggestion on the motor have looked at the site just got to work out if a motor and gear box will fit.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 03, 2011, 06:34:05 PM
You might also want to have a word with Jim or Bob at OTW and ask them what combination they use.

Really I can't see any alternative to using a gearbox, unless you use a very large motor direct drive, or go brushless. Robbe have a new motor out, which is smaller than a speed 400 yet because of its low kv (300) it can swing a 60mm diameter prop direct drive (nice and quiet).  8)

http://www.robbe.de/roxxy-bl-outr-c35-30-45-300kv.html

Haven't seen anyone run a brushless motor in a scale sub over here in the UK, but they seem to be catching on with European modellers.

One slight disadvantage of sensorless brushless motors is their low speed running characteristics are somewhat inferior to sensored brushless or brushed motors. Not that big a deal unless you really have a desire to creep around at very slow speeds!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: timsenecal on December 03, 2011, 11:46:47 PM
You might also want to have a word with Jim or Bob at OTW and ask them what combination they use.

Really I can't see any alternative to using a gearbox, unless you use a very large motor direct drive, or go brushless. Robbe have a new motor out, which is smaller than a speed 400 yet because of its low kv (300) it can swing a 60mm diameter prop direct drive (nice and quiet).  8)

http://www.robbe.de/roxxy-bl-outr-c35-30-45-300kv.html

Haven't seen anyone run a brushless motor in a scale sub over here in the UK, but they seem to be catching on with European modellers.

One slight disadvantage of sensorless brushless motors is their low speed running characteristics are somewhat inferior to sensored brushless or brushed motors. Not that big a deal unless you really have a desire to creep around at very slow speeds!

subculture...  

i found it also here:
http://www.engel-modellbau.eu/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2426&osCsid=c8tvqrg9gprhe3522cr09tkor5

it was easier for me to read the english version  :-)

at 35mm diameter, it is the same diameter as a speed 500, larger than a speed 400, but at 31mm long, it is much shorter than either a speed 500 or a speed 400.

only other problem some might have is that the shaft is 4mm, not the typical 3.17 of a 500, or 2.4 of a 400.

I have had quite a bit of experience with brushless in submarines, and this 300 rpm motor would be great for any who use 12 volt batteries.  when in the water, the higher end (himaxx, axi ) outrunners don't cog, but the cheaper chinese ones do.

thanks for the heads up on this.


edit:

i found this one also on Engel:
http://www.engel-modellbau.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=108_217&products_id=2425&osCsid=c8tvqrg9gprhe3522cr09tkor5

its identical to the first, but 500kvm...  more appropriate for those of us using 2 lipos (7.4volt) ...
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 04, 2011, 09:57:31 AM
Do you own a Vanguard, Andy?

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 04, 2011, 10:48:34 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 04, 2011, 11:06:52 AM
Oh good.

It must be new. You haven't mentioned it before.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 04, 2011, 02:46:43 PM
Thanks for that andy hopefully Jim might happen across this thread, if not I will P.M. him and ask him I could also ask Bob at OTW when I order the hull thanks again Andy for the good advice you have given me throughout my WTC build

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 04, 2011, 03:40:15 PM
the higher end (himaxx, axi ) outrunners don't cog, but the cheaper chinese ones do.

Some of the cheaper outrunners are really good, and some not so good. I find it's the accuracy of the magnet spacing that tends to influence low speed running of outrunners. I found Emax outrunner motors were a bit variable in this respect. Also the ESC's have improved over time I think.

I found a forum for electric vehicles that hold a very long thread showing some creative ideas on how to retrofit large outrunners with hall sensors.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15686

Folk use them for making electric bicycles, and they find if they use them in sensorless configuration it tends to knacker the controller. The same principles apply to smaller outrunners, and with cheap reversible sensored controllers available from Hobbyking, it's worth investigating.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 05, 2011, 05:00:24 PM
Quote
Quote from: U-33 on November 06, 2011, 02:50:38 PM
What subs do you run, Andy?


A brief reply, as this is hijacking John's thread. Working at present- Seehund, Skipjack, Shark, Holland. I was hoping to trial the Skipjack at Brockwell, until Fusion cancelled on me. I rarely run the Seehund these days as it doesn't fit in the back of my mini very well. I was thinking of converting it to LiFE batteries as the old Pb batteries are getting a bit long in the tooth.

In the works- Aquabat, Yellow Submarine, Nautilus and Kittredge K-250 P-Submersible. The Aquabat is actually using a 3S 5A lipo pack, as it fitted well in the 200mm 80mm wtc I made for it. I'm planning to use LiFE batteries in the other three though.

 So I take it you have obtained the Vanguard within the last month, Andy?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 05, 2011, 05:19:18 PM
No.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 05, 2011, 07:31:56 PM
do`s it realy matter when Andy obtained his Vanguard the fact is that Andy is comming up with a great bit of help for me on this thread I dont care when Andy got his models any models I asked for help and Andy kindley gave help and also supplied links of interest to me which I again thank ANDY for.

Anyway I think Andy that I will be going for the MFA motor geerbox combo seems a reasonable price and with the info you supplied and data sheet on the site the one you suggested ticks all the box`s

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 05, 2011, 07:46:21 PM
Also just followed the link for the Robbe brushless motor and speed controler for the motor. Just finished paying the mortgage off dont need another one  {-) {-)
the two togerther were over 100 would rather spend 22 on the moto/gearbox then another 20 squid on the speed control but anyway thanks for the link Andy andfor the English version timesenical

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Sub driver on December 05, 2011, 07:54:49 PM
Hi mark. If you are looking for a motor for the vanguard. Have a look athe robbe navy compact. 600 size motor fixed onto a 4 mm shaft through a 3:1 gearbox. Its powered my vanguard for the last 14 yrs and still ok. Its driving a 3 inch 10 bladed impellor. Hope this is of use. Check out april 1998 model boat mag for pics of it installed. Regards sub
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 05, 2011, 07:58:04 PM
Or try puffin models 6.1 epicyclic gbox for use with 300/400 motor. Mfa 385 or possibly an electronize 360.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 05, 2011, 08:17:04 PM
Thanks sub driver and batfish will be investigating even further now before spending cash.

Regards Mark 
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 05, 2011, 08:35:36 PM
Just get your wallet out, Mark...
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 05, 2011, 08:47:20 PM
did that the other month when the daughter got married cost a bl00dy arm and a leg still recovering from that, who said kids were fun ???  <*< <*<

will have to dip into said wallet soon though >>:-( >:-o

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 05, 2011, 08:58:46 PM
Hi mark,

Electronize> http://www.electronize.co.uk/model_electronics_frames.htm

Puffin> 4th motor down various ratio's> http://www.puffinmodels.com/category.php?dept=190

Also Mark, http://www.icare-rc.com/catalog/kpg25-planetary-gearbox-p-966.html?cPath=46_154&osCsid=osnns13d7d84si6rrsn4gep4e5

this motor was avaliable from Puffin. And from what i gather is also avaliable in 6:1 ratio suitable for 500 type motor.

regards
adam

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 06, 2011, 05:36:16 PM
Ok guys thanks for all the help over a suitable motor have this morning ordered the MFA/Como motor/gearbox combo call me cheap but it suited my wallet at the princely sum of 22 plus the postage, will be sorting out the simmering seal in the morning which just hapens to be 1/2 mile from my house again guys thanks for the help  :-)) :-)) :-))

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 06, 2011, 06:46:13 PM
By heck lad, there's no holding you back when your wallet's open, is there?

I heard all the moths buzzing about from right down here in Sussex!


 %)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 06, 2011, 06:55:29 PM
If I want sumfink then I go get everytime without fail after I have asked the wife if its ok ha ha. I keep telling the wife not much more to buy now.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 06, 2011, 08:10:58 PM
Is that BSL you're going to?

If so it's very helpful to have a part number handy.

For a Simrit/Freudenberg simmerring 4mm shaft seal-

BA 4,00 12,00 6,00 72 NBR 902

I'm sure the 4mm seals I have are 11mm outer diameter, so they seem to have changed the spec to 12mm. Not sure why.

They also do a larger seal of 16mm outer diameter, also suitable for 4mm shaft-

BA 4,00 16,00 7,00 72 NBR 902

I prefer the smaller version, but the larger seal is a bit less fiddly.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 06, 2011, 08:29:03 PM
I feel a a question comming on here now Andy, What is it that I am actually going to be getting when I as for the part don't want to look like a clot when I turn up with the part number only to look at the sales person with that oh $3$$ what do I do with this now look on my face. Do I have to make the shafts up by buying brass tube and rod then make a shaft up with the seals bought or are they a complete shaft with the seal insitue. not thick or anything have made shafts up for boats before now but a sub shaft is a differant beast.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 07, 2011, 07:23:22 AM
They're just a small oil seal. Made from nitrile rubber, with a small spring that grips the shaft, as that bit goes in the free flood area, you should cover it with grease so it doesn't corrode.

(http://s7.postimage.org/4yjdkenrr/WDR4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

I doubt that BSL will have them in stock- they'll have to order them in, so I'd give them a call first.

They're designed to be a mild press fit into a machined housing. You have quite thick end caps, so you could drill into that, and press it in there.  The commercial units use a machined aluminium housing.


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 07, 2011, 10:48:15 AM
I must say that I very much like Simrit shaft seals. Used on all my subs and last for years. I have only ever used them with 4mm stainless steel shaft and I would recommend that. I have heard of people having problems with the lip cutting a groove in the shaft. Worth keeping the rotational speed down also for this reason. (I think I read 3000 rpm somewhere.)

Just an answer to an earlier question. Do be careful about advice. It is very easy to be an "expert" on the web and it can easily happen that the advice can become very expensive for the recipient. I always trust people more if they don't know everything and admit to a few mistakes. O0
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 07, 2011, 12:17:57 PM
There has been ample opportunity for the trustworthy types to contribute to this thread. Unfortunately, in some cases it seems they have more enthusiasm for trolling instead.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 07, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
BTW, unless Bob at OTW has changed the spec of his kit, if you buy the propulsor with it, it should come complete with a 4mm stainless steel shaft threaded at both ends. The propulsor shroud should have two phosphor bronze bearings pressed in.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 07, 2011, 01:30:30 PM
I don't think anybody has claimed to be an "expert" in this thread and advice or recommendations that are offered can be taken or left as to any one person trusting people "if they don't know everything" that person must trust a lot of people, because nobody born knows everything, also the man who has not made a mistake has also never been and never will be born,so why admit to mistakes made when we know they have been made.

Have been in touch with BSL and according to them the 4mm seal is no longer available soooooo I phoned BSL`s suppliers and asked them, the closest seal they do to the measurement's required is 6mm X 12mm X 5mm. I was very supprised at the quoted price for 10 of these seals. Any way I think I will go for the larger inner diameter fitting a universal joint 4mm motor end and 6mm the other end 6mm stainless rod through the seal then another 6mm both end universal joint or could possibly make a sleeve 4mm into 6mm and do away with one universal joint.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 07, 2011, 03:29:09 PM
Well that's a shame, I got that product number from the Simrit website. I wonder if they've just stopped distributing that size?

The number for my 4mm seals is BA 4 11 6, so you could try Brammers with that.

The three numbers represent internal diameter, external diameter and thickness respectively. If they've discontinued that seal too, there's going to be a lot of brassed-off model submarine owners out there, as that seal is used in a lot of German manufactured kits!

Freudenberg/Simrit aren't the only game in town for small oil seals. Simply bearings do a 4mm shaft seal, and they're reasonably priced with cheap postage. Haven't tried this make, but it has all the right ingredients-

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p24002/4x12x6mm+Nitrile+Rubber+Rotary+Shaft+Oil+Seal+R21+/+SC/product_info.html

Perhaps some other people here could suggest possible sources.

Andy
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 07, 2011, 04:20:14 PM
Some years ago I bit the bullet and ordered a minimum order number of Simrits so I have a lifetime supply. I think more conservative ordering may be a better idea.  :-)
I have ordered O rings from Simply some months ago and they gave very good service. At the same time I noticed that they stocked Simrits. Maybe not now??
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 07, 2011, 05:53:31 PM
Ordered from simply in St Helens only ordered 3. 1st one to bu$$er up  :o  2nd one to get nearly right  <*< 3rd one to do the job   :-))

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 07, 2011, 06:02:18 PM
I like your thinking, Mark... :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 07, 2011, 06:10:38 PM
The important thing is to chamfer the hole so nothing sharp cuts into the rubber seal. My Simrit seals are about 0.25mm oversize to provide a mild interference fit into a 11mm hole. A smear of grease or light oil wiped around the outside of the seal helps.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Albion on December 08, 2011, 04:16:02 AM
Have been in touch with BSL and according to them the 4mm seal is no longer available soooooo I phoned BSL`s suppliers and asked them, the closest seal they do to the measurement's required is 6mm X 12mm X 5mm. I was very supprised at the quoted price for 10 of these seals. Any way I think I will go for the larger inner diameter fitting a universal joint 4mm motor end and 6mm the other end 6mm stainless rod through the seal then another 6mm both end universal joint or could possibly make a sleeve 4mm into 6mm and do away with one universal joint.
I think the Engel ones are 4mm
http://www.engel-modellbau.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=92_93&products_id=539&osCsid=eck3e13ans9d63bo6rcquqo0q6
They work pretty good for me

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 08, 2011, 05:28:19 PM
Motor and gearbox arrived today now working out a system of attachment dont know weather to go the Sheerline way fixing onto the end plate or make up a mount to sit/fix to the rear tek rack.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on December 08, 2011, 07:51:17 PM
My drive motor is the stamdard unit from OTW. It's shaft seal is a very well put together unit and I have some drawings somewhere!! I do also have a propellor fromPropshop I could sell you, too, if you are in need of one? 30 plus post or you could pick it up at the next dive in....... ok2   Includes the shaft. I can supply more details if yer interested!
Good luck with the build - I enjoyed the painting and weathering the most - trimming made my hair fall out! :embarrassed:
Jim
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 08, 2011, 08:16:44 PM
thanks for the offer of the prop Jim but I will be going for the impeller that OTW supply for the extra few quit Bob charges it would be naughty not to and anyway I have saved a shed load of cash by building the WTC my self which I am indebeted to a few people on here for their help and tips, and i am quite proud of. wouldnt mind a peek at them drawings though Jim O0

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 09, 2011, 03:32:00 PM
seals have arrived in this mornings post I am told, so tonight will be makeing an attempt to fit said seals, and then the motor to the WTC, then if all go`s well will be testing out in the upstairs water test tank .

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 09, 2011, 03:53:54 PM
Stood standing by for the swearing...   {-)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 09, 2011, 04:53:10 PM
You will be stood standing for a long time then  {-) no swearing from me going to look  and test and look and test and make sure that everything lines up and is squared up proper like so that I have two spare seals and dont have to put my hand in my pocket again for seals anyway. Am sat at work at the moment trying to come up with a carrier piece that will make the job easier have looked at the AMS site at a very old photo of a gizzmo that David came up with millions of years ago in another galaxy (oooppsss) and am thinking of trying to adapt that.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 09, 2011, 06:14:36 PM
Good man Mark, I know we can rely on you for test, test and test again...it does pay.

Have a word with David, I know he'd be happy to help you out with any information that you need. Besides, I'm following this with great interest...I'm on the point of saying 'yes' to a 1/72nd scale Skipjack, which I believe originated from The Scale Shipyard, so I'll be facing the challenges you're having to overcome.

Good luck,


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 09, 2011, 09:06:36 PM
How are you planning on linking the 6mm gearbox shaft to the 4mm propshaft- will you use a rigid coupling or a flexible one? I would think you're planning on using a coupling external to the module, in order to make it easy to take the cylinder in and out of the boat.

The oil seal could be mounted in the endcap, drill a 12mm bore to press it into. To support the shaft, sometimes the bearings of the motor/gearbox are sufficient, when used with a  rigid coupling- that's how Engel do it in the Lafayette for instance. But if you're using a flexible coupling (e.g. Huco) then you will need an additional bearing. Some people use a ballrace mounted directly behind the seal with a collar soldered on to absorb axial thrust from the prop. That's the optimum solution, but a plain bearing will work too.

As you have very thick endcaps, you may have enough thickness to mount both the seal and the bearing.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 10, 2011, 10:43:51 AM
I'm impressed that you are having a look in the archive at my efforts, Mark!

I take it that is the Simrit "sandwich" hard soldered on to the end of a brass bolt.

Simple and  a bit crude but you may be encouraged to know it's the method I still use.

The only recent mod I have made is to put a ball race behind the Simrit. (I drill into the bolt head to inset the ball race.)

I certainly used to make the pre ball  race versions without a lathe and I think , with care, you could make the ball race version without a lathe too.

A bit of an advantage over drilling into endcaps etc. is that if you make a complete ***** of it you just throw the bolt into the bin and grab another one!

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 10, 2011, 03:16:15 PM
The problem I have David is drilling into the bolt without a piller drill or lathe that will possibly be beyond me so I think I will be knocking something up in perspex for the seal and bearing IF I go for a u/j on the shaft might go for just the seal and a rigid joint. got to get my head around drilling a bolt without the proper tools. Was fine spinning the end caps in a drill but holding a bolt in a vice and drilling it square hhhmmm will have to see.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 10, 2011, 03:50:05 PM
David I hope you don't mind I have nicked your picture and reproduced it here I was wondering do the brass plates go either side of the end plate (yes I think) why use a bolt drilled is their any need for the extra length that introduces into the WTC dry side


(http://s8.postimage.org/us6fn5fwh/shaft_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/us6fn5fwh/)

please don't bite only asking would it be easier for me to make up the two brass plates for the two sides to sandwich the seal into the endplate with a bearing on the dry side of the end plate. Unfortunately on the works computer and no photo editing possible could alter your photo to show what I mean if this seems like gobeldygook.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on December 10, 2011, 05:03:28 PM
Hi Mark,

I realise that is a very old photograph where I was fitting the ball race at the other end of the bolt.
The following shows an updated one:
http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com/t266p15-prop-shaft-seals#3001

(Sorry its a link but I had difficulty uploading the photo on this site.)

The ball race now fits in the bolt head just under the Simrit.
The bolt goes through the bulkhead and the nut is tightened. (Silicone rubber makes the seal hence the messy appearance!)
You can see one of the geared MFA motors behind.

David.

PS I find it best to hard (silver) solder the brass plates to the brass bolt. I find it easier to do than soft soldering (you do need a small gas torch) and it is much stronger.

PPS Just reading your post again.You will find that drilling through a bolt without a pillar drill will be difficult. I recall doing it but had to use the best of 6 bolts! (You did want a demanding hobby didn't you!) Drilling the recess for the Simrit will be difficult too.You may just do it not using  a ball race or use one mounted on the other end as in the old photo.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 10, 2011, 05:36:40 PM
If you want to make it up this way, Mark, send me the bolt and I'll drill it through on the lathe- 5 minute job.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 11, 2011, 08:44:42 PM
David thanks for the info got it worked out in my head now as to how and where your seal works and go`s. Andy thanks for the offer with the bolt will be giving you a shout in a couple of days if the plan I have drawn up dosn`t work for me I will put my little drawing up on Monday for all to see and advise or tweak. I think I am lucky in the fact that my end caps are 12mm thick so I could get the simring seal and a bearing sitting behind one another with two brass plates one in the wet side the other in the dry side. please bare with me untill Monday I think you will see then where I am going.

thanks to all for the advice and info given so far.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 11, 2011, 09:27:52 PM
Ha. Found this whilst looking at stuff for another post-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-Submarine-Motor-shaft-seal-set-ID-4-mm-Type-S-/280784397580?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item41600de50c

Very basic, the shaft is running inside brass, a bronze bearing would have been nice. There was an outfit around a few years ago run by Francis Fearn called Subway designs. they used to supply a beautifully CNC machined shaft seal for 4mm shafts, complete with ballrace, all in Stainless steel. It was custom designed for WTC's. Unfortunately no longer available AFAIK.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 12, 2011, 01:06:54 PM
O.k. as promised a couple of drawing of my idea using ideas adapted from other peoples ideas and examples 1st picture shows two endplates adapted from Davids idea for clamping a simring seal I have the room to put my simring seal and a steel bearing behind it in my end cap.


(http://s7.postimage.org/zehj0qofb/DSCF2517.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/zehj0qofb/)

2nd Drawing is of the layout of the tek rack with the motor and servos in position with a universal joint which I think is a double u/j I don't know if I should also fit one on the wet side of the end plate.


(http://s9.postimage.org/eo3rz10bv/DSCF2516.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eo3rz10bv/)

Please go easy on my drawing I cant draw to save my life at the best of times but I would like advise  if possible on any better ideas /ways of doing this.


Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 12, 2011, 02:03:26 PM
That looks fine to me. Ideally the thrust load from the prop would be absorbed by the ballrace, which won't happen with that set-up, instead it will be taken up by the bearings in gearbox, which it should handle easily.

I can't see how you can get away without having an additional coupling of some description external to the module if you want to make it removable.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 12, 2011, 02:18:00 PM
Andy I don't want to put to much load on the gearbox bearing where would you suggest putting the bearing or even changing the layout so that their was as little thrust load on the gearbox bearing ?? .

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 12, 2011, 02:54:09 PM
You would need to create a small gap between the ballrace and the seal to allow a collar to be either hard soldered or Loctited (bearing grade) onto the shaft. This butts up against the ballrace allowing it to shoulder any axial force from the propeller.

Not sure how you can do that with the layout shown there- you have a 12mm thick end cap, the seal is 6mm thick, so unless you use a very thin ballrace, you're not going to have enough space for a collar.

But as I said, I don't think you have anything to worry about with the original layout.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on December 12, 2011, 05:01:24 PM
Why not use a stub shaft just to come through the WTC and have a u/j to connect to the prop shaft would also make life easier when you want to remove the WTC and the  u/j would take up all the thrust from the prop  :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 12, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
You've lost em there, Andy. I'm also unclear how a U/J absorbs an axial load.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on December 12, 2011, 06:02:30 PM
WHOOOPS must get my eyes checked I thought I read thrust just ignore me having an off day I am going to go and mutter in the corner :embarrassed:
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 12, 2011, 06:08:23 PM
Right I've had a little thinky (yes I know I should be careful....).

Simply triple the thickness of your endcap at the point where the shaft seal is located. That gives you an extra 6mm of clearance which is plenty to allow a collar to be fitted.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 14, 2011, 09:08:16 AM
O.K. so I triple the thickness of my endcap to 18mm, I know that stainless is tough And you say locktite (bearing grade) a coller to the shaft which I can visualise in my head but bearing grade loctite ??? thought loctite was loctite.
I know I must run a stainless steel shaft through the seal was thinking of altering my plan slightley so that I used a shorter u/j in the WTC enabeling me to go the way Andy_k suggests with a stub axle (stainless) out of the WTC onto a second u/j then the actual prop shaft. with the saved space of using a single u/j in the WTC I could fit a bearing in between the u/j and endcap or as you suggest Andy actually into the endcap. Question is what is bearing grade Loctite and where do`s one aquire some from???

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 14, 2011, 09:49:05 AM
The industrial grade stuff is numbered, and comes in different strength formulations. For instance you can get formulations with lower strength used for thread fastening e.g. Loctite 222

Those weaker formulations are sufficient to prevent a thread from loosening but will break if you need to.

For your application you need a high strength retainer specified for holding roller bearings etc. Loctite 638 would be a good choice. Once the collar is glued on with that, you will need heat to remove it.

Try googling for a local supplier, or ebay etc. The stuff isn't cheap, but it lasts for years and you only need a drop, so buy a small bottle e.g. 10ml which will last a long time.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Loctite-638-high-strength-retainer-10ml-/190595028546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c60595642
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 14, 2011, 12:50:19 PM
Your fairly getting on with it mark, Good to see it coming together.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Albion on December 14, 2011, 11:29:47 PM
The industrial grade stuff is numbered, and comes in different strength formulations. For instance you can get formulations with lower strength used for thread fastening e.g. Loctite 222

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Loctite-638-high-strength-retainer-10ml-/190595028546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c60595642
When i was an apprentice we stuck a 50p piece to a marking table. then sat back to watch as people tried to secretly pocket it (50p could buy a pint then).
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 15, 2011, 09:56:18 AM
A somewhat more sadistic variation on that, was sticking a pound coin under a blowlamp and chucking it for someone to catch.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 15, 2011, 12:10:28 PM
Now that is evil, Mr L...   %)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 15, 2011, 01:31:10 PM
I perhaps should have added that I wasn't the perpetrator- or the victim.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 15, 2011, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Mark,

I have a Engel lavayette motor mount 2 compression seals a prop shaft again engel, and 2 4mm solid couplings. if any use give me a shout.

regards

adam
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 16, 2011, 01:31:13 PM
Father-in-law is going to make me a brass coupling 6mm one end and 4mm the other my seal is in place and held with a nice brass plate photo`s will follow in a few days, should have got on line earlier would have given batfish a shout then for some of his bits but I have been working hard, off at the weekend so more time to spend building

Thanks for the offer batfish and all the help offered so far by all.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 18, 2011, 08:26:26 PM
Great news I have ordered the Vanguard hull from OTW will be here in January. :-)) :-))

Been working on the WTC again over the weekend had problems trying to make a solid 6mm to 4mm coupling due to lack of tooling and skills so opted to purchase a ready made 6mm to 4mm U/J for inside the WTC just to take out any slight misalinement will also be fitting on arrival a bearing on the inside of the WTC in the following photos I have neglected to fit the servo horns also the links and rods are not in position yet.


(http://s9.postimage.org/j8nxmcsbf/DSCF2526.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j8nxmcsbf/)


(http://s9.postimage.org/451ri95y3/DSCF2529.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/451ri95y3/)

Regards Mark



(http://s9.postimage.org/4qvbs3qe3/DSCF2530.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4qvbs3qe3/)

(http://s10.postimage.org/64q4rg5px/DSCF2531.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/64q4rg5px/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 18, 2011, 08:30:32 PM
Nice. Have you got enough room for the batteries inside there? Things look a bit tight, or are they going in the drink?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 18, 2011, 08:31:08 PM
Good work, Mark...looks really good to me.



Rich


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 18, 2011, 08:40:23 PM
Planing on using 12v SLA batteries Andy in the drink was thinking maybe of using one up front and one in the rear as ballast as well as power all depends on how the sub balances with everything on board

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 22, 2011, 04:22:23 PM
Think I have a problem with my radio I have a futaba 6EX which is 6 channels but only 4 are proportional with 2 on toggle switches is their a way to change one of these toggle switches so it becomes a proportional channel if this is not possible can anyone recommend a 5 or 6 channel radio on 40 megs FM that isn't going to break the bank

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 22, 2011, 06:33:16 PM
You should be able to convert one or both of the switched channels to proportional control using a potentiometer.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 22, 2011, 07:52:57 PM
Thought I could do that  so I got hold of a pot Andy and wired it up but it didn't work all it did was switch the servo from full left to full right with no proportional control at all used a 5 ohm pot will try one of the other switches see how i go on

regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 22, 2011, 08:31:15 PM
5 ohm? That's far too low, do you mean 5000 ohm (5k)?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 22, 2011, 08:41:45 PM
oopss sorry Andy yes 5 K
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: sub john on December 22, 2011, 09:32:02 PM
HI MARK
Does your wires from your toggle switches have a futaba servo plug on the end that plugs into PCB just wondered if you was wiring wires from pots to the right pins on PCB have you got circuit diagram for TX transmitter as i would be able to tell you what to do to make it work failing that if you had some pictures i might be able to tell you from that its one of those job if i had it in front of me and  i could follow the circuit through  and rework it i will have a look on the net to see if i can find a circuit for it. Hope it helps John
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 22, 2011, 09:54:30 PM
I have a Futaba/Robbe FC16. The pots for the four gimballed sticks are 5k or thereabouts.

I wanted a rotary channel , and used a 1k pot with a 2k resistor on each outer leg; that gives you 5k, but enables one to sweep through the full range of the pot.

I was given a slider pot which is a robbe part, and that uses a 10k potentiometer with a 82k fixed reistor on the centre leg. Both work fine.

I can't say for sure if those values will work on your set, never having owned a 6EX, but I'd be surprised if they're radically different. Unfortunately circuit diagrams are difficult to find for Futaba kit, unless you know a tame service technician that works on them.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 22, 2011, 10:40:08 PM
thanks for the info Andy and the offer sub john but.........after a lot of research on the net tonight it seems that what I want to do with the 6EX is impossible due to the software not being able to cope with the changeI have gpt a HiTek laser 6 which is a nice radio setup I use on my Akula so its on the phone in the morning to buy another one of those

thankls again guys for the help

Regards  Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 22, 2011, 10:56:24 PM
Mark,

Not sure if your still having problems with coupling.

I picked up 2 of these the other day and the brass is solid and heavy. you just cut the tube to required length and thats it.
http://www.mobilemarinemodels.com/acatalog/Safety_Couplings.html

Anyway good to hear vanguard is on the way.... Pity not in time for christmas lol

adam
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 23, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
what I want to do with the 6EX is impossible due to the software not being able to cope with the change.

That's a pity, sounds like the controls may go directly to a microcontroller, and the switched inputs are routed into digital inputs instead of A/D converters. My FC16 can be tinkered with to your hearts content, but then it is a set that is designed for expansion.

I think in some ways the older sets were easier to work with when it comes to modification.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 10:59:55 AM
agree the old sets much better to tinkle with am now trying to get hold of a hi-tek laser 6 or even an f14 which would be nice to tinker with  cheers Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 23, 2011, 11:13:08 AM
Just one thing I'm wondering- if you already have a laser 6 for the Akula, why do you require another set for the Vangaurd- you can only sail one at a time. Or does your missus want to join in?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 12:35:09 PM
Andy trying to find a 40 MHz hi-tec 6 channel reciever is like trying to get hold of hens teeth have tried shops all over the country with no luck so am thinking of getting another radio just for the Vanguard

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 23, 2011, 12:53:42 PM
http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=20031

8 for a dual conversion receiver is a bit of a bargain, I'm sure you'll agree.  You will need a dual conversion crystal to go with it, and that it must be a Hitec D/C cyrstal. SMC do those too.

8-channel not 6-channel, so if you ever get that F14, you have some extra functions available, should you desire them.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 01:32:08 PM
Thanks Andy Reciever ordered no duel conversion crystals though so i will have to get some from else where,  you saved me buying a new radio there I owe you a pint at the next dive in

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on December 23, 2011, 01:32:51 PM
Hi Mark dont know what sort of budget you are on but didn't think this was a bad price

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FUTABA-UNIVERSAL-REMOTE-CONTROL-F14-40MHz-FM-4-CHANNEL-/200664499444?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item2eb88944f4
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 23, 2011, 01:48:02 PM
Did you email or phone them to ask what they had in stock?

http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=1323
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 02:06:26 PM
Andy they had a list up on the web site had loads of channels duel conversion but on 35 MHz all the 40 MHz ones were single conversion have just had a look at Andy_k`s suggestion would like that but am very wearey?? of buying off of e-bay especially if the item is outside the country

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 02:21:31 PM
Question for you Andy if you dont mind- how easy/hard is it to adapt the f-14 yourself can it be done or do you have to buy futaba/graupner parts only ? or is maplin a cheaper option for the bits and pieces?

looking hard at the f-14 now

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Mankster on December 23, 2011, 02:38:05 PM
The F-14 is really basic with no computer. Its really easy to add any old 2/3 position switches from Maplin etc - big saving over buying from Robbe switches. I would be looking to get a FC-16 instead if you can http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FC-16-Boat-Truck-6-8-1-40-M-Futaba-Robbe-F4044-1-F404-/230605753262?pt=RC_Modellbau&hash=item35b12c8bae - comes with sliders
All my radio gear was bought from Germany - Multiplex Cockpit Sx, Graupner MC-19s and Graupner MC-22s. I also got a bunch of sythesised single and dual conversion Rx's as well so no crystals to buy. These days eBay and Paypal is the safest way to buy things online (and conversely the worst way to sell things) as the buyer always gets the money back no matter what.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 03:06:00 PM
thanks for the link Mankster got to make a choice now question for you Mankster is it just as easy to add to the fc-16 as it is to the f-14 also using bits and peices from Maplin ???

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 23, 2011, 03:53:57 PM
Although internally they are different, in terms of expansion, they can be considered the same. As said, you can save a lot of dough by sourcing switches, pots etc. from electronic stores instead of buying the overpriced Robbe items.

The computer on the FC16 is worth having if you have a lot of models, as it enables you to store servo reverse settings etc.. Most of the built in mixing is a waste of time on subs, as you usually end up having to mix on-board the model itself anyway (e.g. x-tail).

Both FC16 and F14 can be converted to dual 40mhz/2.4ghz use, so you can also use the set for aeroplanes and/or surface craft. I used a Corona DIY kit to convert mine.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 05:05:47 PM
Thanks again Andy also Mankster just bought the fc-16 on 40 MHz with twin sticks, sliders and a lot of parts for the sum of 95.00

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Andy_k on December 23, 2011, 05:16:56 PM
lucky bleeder    <*<
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 05:38:53 PM
lucky bleeder    <*<


he he he bargain  8) ;D

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on December 23, 2011, 05:50:56 PM
Hee hee...I got my F-14 for much less than that.   O0


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 23, 2011, 05:57:11 PM
yeh but my fc16 is better than your f14 na na nana na  %%
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Mankster on December 23, 2011, 06:09:18 PM
Thats a pretty good deal, the Navy sticks on there own retail for that much  :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 24, 2011, 12:06:54 PM
Ordered online a 40MHz HiTek receiver yesterday afternoon from Sussex model centre (SMC) was realy cheap like 8 for 8 channels it arrived this morning now if that is not first class service then I dont know what is.
just got to sort out a channel 54 HiTek Receiver crystal now.
Thankyou SMC

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 24, 2011, 12:40:29 PM
Almost as much as the receiver I'm afraid-

http://lincsmodellingsupplies.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_172_547&products_id=5713
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on December 24, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
I would of sold you a Schultz 8.40sw rx for 30 brand new in pink packaging incl delivery.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 24, 2011, 01:15:55 PM
I would of sold you a Schultz 8.40sw rx for 30 brand new in pink packaging incl delivery.



dont know what one of them is Batfish but the reciever was 8 the crystal I have just ordered was 6 so I now have a spare reciever and crystel for my next sub after the Vanguard but sshhhhh dont tell the wife  {-)
Andy thanks for the link looked their yesterday but must have missed it.
Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Mankster on December 24, 2011, 11:33:41 PM
Anyone wanting a RX for sub that uses Crystals, then that Schultze is the one to get. The onboard glitch counter is useful for positiing the reveiver. Works off Futaba single conversion crystals which are relatively cheap and easy to get hold off new and 2nd hand. I had a fleet of Schultze before moving on to synthesised Rx's.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 25, 2011, 08:24:39 AM
Ahhh right live and learn now I know what a Schulz is thanks Mankster

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 26, 2011, 06:40:17 PM
Cracking on now but ...... cant make my mind up as to what type of seal to use for the control rods their is I think two options 1 is to use rubber bellows available off of e-bay from a company in Warrington just around the corner from me, or their is a guy in Newport that makes a brass tube with ptfe bushes and a rubber seal. Has anyone got or had experiance of the brass tube type??

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 26, 2011, 08:38:46 PM
Either work fine.

Personally I like bellows, they work well and are low in friction. Pushrod seals appear to be more popular in Europe and the States.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 30, 2011, 02:29:04 PM
OK then bellows it is they were ordered and have arrived same as my f16 radio with twin sticks on the left the seller also included the original stick and a load of switches and veriable pots for the extra channels also has the two lineare chanels populated just got a couple of questions for you guys in the know

Q 1. can I use my futaba charger off my 6EX set to charge the Tx
Q 2. how long shouild the ariel be on a futaba receiver as it looks like the one I have has been cut

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 30, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
A standard FC16 uses a 9.6 volt battery, which is the same as the vast majority of sets out there, if the plug of your 6EX charger fits in the charging socket, then it should be fine. I use three Li-ion batteries in my FC16, and charge them with a balancing charger external to the transmitter.

Not sure on RX length, I will have to measure mine and get back to you. Is it the R118F model you have?

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 30, 2011, 06:39:53 PM
It is the R118F and thanks for that in advance

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 31, 2011, 08:22:48 AM
Ref the ariel length found out through reading the destructions its supposed to be 100cm long I think this one has shrunk in the wash or even been cut by the last owner  <*< <*< <*< <*<
I will have to strip the receiver down and replace the wire have replaced the twin navy sticks with the single one only because I wont use the twin stick on any of the models I have. Radio works fine all 8 chanels up and running but I have found that the linear sliders seem to be a bit harsh in the fact that the travel of the servos seems to happen in the first third of the slider. probably be able to alter that in the programing.

wish January would hurry up and get here hopfully get my Vanguard in the second week.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on December 31, 2011, 10:47:11 AM
Sounds about right. I measured my aerial and it came to about 98cm from the edge of the case, there will be a centimetre or two going inside the case.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on December 31, 2011, 05:23:37 PM
Thanks for taking the time to check Andy. All the best to you and your family and all the best to all of you other Mayhemers out in the whole wide world

 :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on January 14, 2012, 10:01:21 AM
O.K. Christmas is over now so back to my build after looking and struggling to fit everything in to my WTC I decided it wasnt big enough so I recut the support rack and obtained another piece of tube and enlarged the the front portion of the WTC now it is much better and not such a tight squeeze.


(http://s7.postimage.org/a4m96xquv/DSCF2513.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a4m96xquv/)
this picture shows the old rack


(http://s12.postimage.org/5kerzwomh/DSCF2532.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5kerzwomh/)
and this is the new rack

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on January 29, 2012, 10:52:20 PM
I think that my WTC is now finished just got to check it out for leaks. Over all length is 29.5 inches just got to change the tie rods to brass. awaiting the delivery of my Vanguard, due the end of the first week of Feb also done a deal for a Trafalger which should be sorted by the end of the first week in Feb as well going to be busy in Feb  O0

for now though here are some pics of my compleated WTC


(http://s18.postimage.org/6uteph3ph/DSCF2558.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6uteph3ph/)

(http://s14.postimage.org/or542lyvx/DSCF2559.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/or542lyvx/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/p1gawy51h/DSCF2560.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p1gawy51h/)

(http://s14.postimage.org/pw3rlqaql/DSCF2561.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pw3rlqaql/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on January 30, 2012, 12:08:51 PM
Well thats that sorted then NO leaks with the WTC using the water and washing up liquid trick will pop her in the test tank in the next week

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on January 30, 2012, 12:29:05 PM
Excellent, well done Mark!


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on January 30, 2012, 03:24:13 PM
Good stuff. I see you have also moved the position of the motor nearer towards the aft endcap.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on January 31, 2012, 12:57:42 PM
Yes andy was having a few problems with vibration but got it sorted by looking at my Akula mount
Seems to have cut the vibes to nil now


Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on January 31, 2012, 01:45:42 PM
It looks a lot more sturdy than the original set-up. I expect the length of shaft between the bearing and a bit of misalignment in the coupling caused the vibration.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 08, 2012, 01:40:31 PM
Let the fun begin my Vanguard has just docked the build will be started shortly WTC is A.O.K fully leak resistant


(http://s15.postimage.org/5uunixytj/DSCF2618.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5uunixytj/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 08, 2012, 05:16:12 PM
That's interesting- looks like they're supplying the sail in polyester/glass now instead of a three part polyurethane part.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 08, 2012, 07:01:43 PM
Well spoted Andy spoke to Bob and the glass (new) version is much stronger all I have to do now is get gutsy and start drilling and filing all the flood and drain holes

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 08, 2012, 07:13:16 PM
Bob has gone full circle, the first kits had a GRP sail, but it was a bit too tall for some reason. Dave Merriman made a new master for the sail with the correct dimensions, and it's that which is now included with the kit. Hydroplanes and propulsor are all newer versions too.

The GRP part should be thinner, so that will free up some ballast tank volume. Are you going to make some scopes yourself for the boat?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 08, 2012, 08:51:33 PM
yes I will have to I only bought the hull the dive planes never even thought about linkages and all the little fiddly bits that hold everything together will be doing some sourcing from frodsham models on monday. If I get stuck I could always have a bit of a go at the Sheerline Trafalga I have aquiered which is a bute of a sub

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 08, 2012, 09:07:55 PM
You can purchase wheel collets of various diameters, which make a good starting point for making the control arms for your linkages. Yokes can be fashioned from brass rod, and then soft or silver soldered to the collets.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 09, 2012, 06:45:51 PM
Dave Merriman sent some images through of the work he did on the Vanguard kit, including the reworked sail, propulsor and appendages. Some of the pictures also show his set-up for the rear linkages, which should provide hints on how to do yours

(http://s11.postimage.org/5451tzknj/DSCN0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5451tzknj/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/nxquqzivj/DSCN0004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nxquqzivj/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/4h654gnrj/DSCN006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4h654gnrj/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/f59w3axqn/DSCN0006.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f59w3axqn/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/v4sjmutsf/DSCN0012.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/v4sjmutsf/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/fkl5wbjnz/DSCN0017.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fkl5wbjnz/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/q8ti8wj0v/DSCN0020.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/q8ti8wj0v/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/y2u3uaqtr/DSCN0022.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/y2u3uaqtr/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/bs68ubtjj/DSCN0027.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bs68ubtjj/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/659vwur0v/DSCN0031.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/659vwur0v/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/3p82j08y7/DSCN0037.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3p82j08y7/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/hk6d1h3db/DSCN0038.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hk6d1h3db/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/bxa0400un/DSCN0039.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bxa0400un/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/s9k1tqf67/DSCN0040.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/s9k1tqf67/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/9ii4jkklr/DSCN0042.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9ii4jkklr/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/jtuhc8cb3/DSCN0044.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jtuhc8cb3/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/kkrsvr427/DSCN0046.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kkrsvr427/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/m13bdw6z3/DSCN0050.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m13bdw6z3/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/3mss9wuof/DSCN0052.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3mss9wuof/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/lqvsujscv/DSCN0054.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lqvsujscv/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/a31r0037z/DSCN0055.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a31r0037z/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/8cipyilov/DSCN0056.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8cipyilov/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/r64ivijwv/DSCN0058.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/r64ivijwv/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/d0yptpavj/DSCN0064.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/d0yptpavj/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/4jz7is66n/DSCN0065.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4jz7is66n/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/vvugk4axb/DSCN0069_0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vvugk4axb/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/61p9830b3/DSCN0074.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/61p9830b3/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/7us5welhr/DSCN0092.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7us5welhr/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/p9ce4oimn/DSCN0094.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/p9ce4oimn/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/ol3jlqjwv/DSCN0102.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ol3jlqjwv/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/txsdzv7tb/DSCN0126.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/txsdzv7tb/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/rhqkm0pqn/DSCN0132.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rhqkm0pqn/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/ud3nsvtqn/DSCN0137.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ud3nsvtqn/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/oq7aver7z/DSCN0155.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/oq7aver7z/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/59ml8vw3z/DSCN0164.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/59ml8vw3z/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/6d6pkugr3/DSCN0182.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6d6pkugr3/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/6el8s07yn/DSCN0190.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6el8s07yn/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/4o27qiqfj/DSCN0192.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4o27qiqfj/)

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 09, 2012, 07:54:40 PM
Fantastic Andy thanks for posting the pictures I am sure I will be refering to them through out my build. Got to work out yet weather the pump drive fits into the hull or if it fits to the out side after cutting the hall and flating the stern.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 09, 2012, 08:11:57 PM
It should butt up against the hull, fitting that and getting the all the planes aligned nicely is probably the trickiest part.

Notice that Dave fitted some temporary metal straps to hold the shroud whilst it was fixed in. You can tack it on with some superglue then glass it in proper with some Isopon P40
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 09, 2012, 10:42:28 PM
Had time to look at the pics you uploaded Andy their is loads of info in them if you look closely. I dont know wether I will cut all the drain holes in the bottom like Dave has but will certanley be using a lot of his ideas, including the swimmimg pool test tank  O0 thanks again Andy for the pictures you uploaded

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 10, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
The Jecobin drawings show a couple of dozen flooding slots, and they're rather small. The hull could be a bit slow to drain with just those I think, especially when hooking it out of the water.

A modeller in Germany is building a Vanguard, and he has drilled out the scribed holes spaced every few inches either side of the centreline on the underside of the boat. Not sure if these represent kingston valves on the fullsize boat.

(http://s8.postimage.org/7ma94jxvl/DSC02931.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7ma94jxvl/)

You can follow this thread here- http://www.rcboot.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3495&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

He's using a 1 litre Engel tank with a 110mm diameter cylinder. I've got my doubts he'll get a scale waterline with that size tank and cylinder, but we'll see.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 10, 2012, 01:40:37 PM
Will only be using the plans supplied by OTW for the vanguard so will follow them. Fortunately for me the Trafalgar I have acquired came with a set of Jecobin plans which show a great deal of detail. Will be finishing the vanguard first then onto making a WTC for the Trafalgar
The link you supplied to the German site looks good will be following that build cheers Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 10, 2012, 02:28:26 PM
I'm pretty sure the plans OTW supply are the Jecobin ones.

Won't the wtc from the Vanguard fit the Trafalgar?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 10, 2012, 02:40:34 PM
 ok2 ok2 already checked that one out Andy and yes it do`s was also thinking that the Akula WTC will fit the trafalgar their are a few options open to me but I think I will build a seperate WTC for the Trafalgar funny about the plans the Trafalga plans are marked Jecobin but the OTW ones arn`t. And anyway the Trafalgar came with a Tube and end caps tube is 90cm by to long  O0 the end caps (resin cast) don`t seem to fit tight enough so I think I will be using that unless someone thinks its a bad idea.

Regards Mark 
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 10, 2012, 04:06:21 PM
I don't think the Akula tank will have enough volume to get a scale waterline on the Trafalgar, and the drive may not be well matched either. The propulsors are about the same size on the Vanguard and Trafalgar because of the latter's larger scale. However the pitch and blade area is quite a bit higher on the Trafalgars propulsor, so it'll load the motor more but I think you'll be okay with the MFA geared 500 motor. Personally with a Trafalgar, I would be tempted to ditch the propulsor, as the first of the fleet wasn't fitted with one until later in her career. A more conventional prop works a lot better, with no fixed shroud to muck up the turning radius, and less blades.

I'm not sure what the tank size is in the Trafalgar, you could have a word with Alistair, he has a Sheerline Trafalgar, unless he's sold it on.

The earlier Trafalgar hulls were heavily laid up hull, Chris Cloke modified later hulls and thinned out the upper half to help improve the boats stability.  You can tell which one you have by looking at the underside of the top half, if it has strengthening ribs moulded in, you have the later hull. The ribs are there to help prevent the thinner laminate distorting.

Ramesh has one of the earlier hulls, with a lot of enhancements (new shroud, sail and hydroplanes) that were incorporated by U.S based modeller Steve Reichmuth. As such, I think it probably holds the record for most widely travelled model Trafalgar class, having gone from the UK to the U.S, then to France and back to the UK again! It has a scratchbuilt WTC that is fitted out with a pair of proportionally controlled Engel tanks. Works really well, although Ramesh felt performance was a little ponderous for his tastes.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 10, 2012, 05:50:42 PM
So the Akula WTC is out then well thats not a problem as I said in my post earlier I dont mind building another WTC for the Trafalgar am made up with the Trafalgar though it is the latest incarnation of Mr Cloaks sub just going to pester you later on Andy when it come to the traf`s WTC  i.e. size for a scale waterline and all that  ok2 not sure whether to use the 90MM tube that came with it or buy a piece of 100mm tube. I have seen Ramesh`s build log of his Trafalgar looks realy nice.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 10, 2012, 06:41:51 PM
I won't be able to give you the same specific pointers as I did with the Vanguard I'm afraid- I don't have that hull.

Being a much larger scale, it is roomier than the Vanguard so that affords you greater choice when deciding the diameter of tubing.

Ramesh should be able to give you some good advice, and of course Mr Sheerline himself is on this forum, both have extensive knowledge about this boat, and what is needed to make it work well.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 13, 2012, 02:57:09 PM
Two pictures of my Vanguard lower hull with drain/flood holes drilled out


(http://s18.postimage.org/4jyfee9rp/DSCF2619.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4jyfee9rp/)


(http://s14.postimage.org/qbzko2959/DSCF2620.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qbzko2959/)

more pictures to follow as the build progresses

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 13, 2012, 03:48:40 PM
Don't know if it's important to you or not, but the rectangular slots aren't like that on the original. There should be a gap between the slots like in this shot of the bow slots. Depends how fussy you are.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/Vanguard/submarine1.jpg)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 13, 2012, 04:33:09 PM

(http://s15.postimage.org/ham00qllj/DSCF2619_No2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ham00qllj/)

I think that they are in the correct place at the front two on each side when painted the slots will have a red border to them

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 14, 2012, 05:15:07 PM
last picture uploaded wrong hopfully the next few will be ok. have now cut the front and rear of the upper hull and atached the rear upper to the lower hull ready to offer the pump drive unit to the hull.


(http://s18.postimage.org/f5ahl1nut/DSCF2621.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f5ahl1nut/)


(http://s15.postimage.org/j8ohgu0vb/DSCF2622.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/j8ohgu0vb/)


(http://s16.postimage.org/db35jso35/DSCF2623.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/db35jso35/)

Andy I couldn`t for the life of me see what you meant then it hit me their is a seperator type bar between each inlet slot which is painted red I see what you meant now, I am fitting mesh into the rear of the slots and the filood holes on the bottom so will replicate the seperator with plasicard when the mesh is in place thanks for spoting that mate
Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 14, 2012, 06:58:42 PM
Glad the penny dropped. When the master was scribed about 12 years ago, the reference information wasn't too easy to come by. I think it's the same story for the other gratings too, although I've not seen any pictures of those.
Another piccie-

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/Vanguard/vanguardfloodgratesbow.jpg)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 14, 2012, 07:17:58 PM
now I know what I should have looked at at first I thought I had got the shape wrong and was going to have to hit the filler sooo soon  :embarrassed: but then when I sat and studied the picture you posted after about 10 mins I saw your point and the second picture (in my defence if you had posted the second picture first  ok2 ok2) is even clearer.

Thanks again Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 14, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
Stop making excuses- it shows the vents correct on the plan anyway, so there!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 14, 2012, 10:19:16 PM
ha ha me excuses never  {-)

Had 2 days on the vanguard now got some more pictures of how far I have got not sure whether my control rods will be approved or not but its quite simple and easy to work on with my big hands still got loads to do. In the picture with the WTC in the sub the position is wrong I just put it in there and anyway it saves space, enough of me rambling on now here are a few pics


(http://s14.postimage.org/tapkpf0m5/DSCF2624.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tapkpf0m5/)

(http://s14.postimage.org/z1oxumndp/DSCF2625.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/z1oxumndp/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/9yk8672md/DSCF2626.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9yk8672md/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/qh1zz5lub/DSCF2628.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qh1zz5lub/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/vv0s6pbkj/DSCF2629.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vv0s6pbkj/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/l7307q5tx/DSCF2630.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/l7307q5tx/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Sub driver on February 15, 2012, 05:40:50 AM
Nice to see another v class boat taking shape. We will soon be able to have a flotilla of bombers.  Regards sub.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 18, 2012, 09:45:11 PM
heavy into the drill and lots of needle files being used today think that I only need to pop a few holes in the deck now to let out any traped air when she dives


(http://s7.postimage.org/787rslpg7/DSCF2631.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/787rslpg7/)

(http://s17.postimage.org/6ezfsuj3v/DSCF2632.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6ezfsuj3v/)

I have got some nice mesh to fit behind the square vents or whatever they are called

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 18, 2012, 10:50:53 PM
They're casing vents.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 18, 2012, 11:42:17 PM
I dont know why but I knew you would know that andy thanks now I know  :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 19, 2012, 11:50:10 AM
You can drill out the holes for the retractable cleats/bollards for venting. On the OTW hull these are scribed circles about 4mm diameter, on the fullsize boat they're actually teardrop shaped. There are about two dozen along the length of the deck plus another sixteen vent holes on the missile hatch doors. I'd recommend one or two larger holes at the stern, you have quite a bit of choice there, but the two located about three inches forward of the rudder look promising.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 21, 2012, 01:33:25 PM
Three more pictures of my Vanguard build. First picture is of the rear connections and prop shaft I have chosen to use electrical connectores to hold all the push rods in position

(http://s18.postimage.org/eppkh7o8l/DSCF2633.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eppkh7o8l/)

Second picture is the location of the battery, going to be using 12v 2.8Ah as I have a couple of these available the batter will also act as ballast


(http://s17.postimage.org/5gzr2ns6j/DSCF2634.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5gzr2ns6j/)

Third picture is my front dive plane connection utilizing a piece of brass strip to connect the two sides together

(http://s18.postimage.org/85vz2coz9/DSCF2635.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/85vz2coz9/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 21, 2012, 01:46:23 PM
I'm hoping that lead acid brick won't undermine the boats stability.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 21, 2012, 08:42:06 PM
Hmmm it is a bit heavy Andy I haven't got enough room under the WTC for a line of battery could maybe custom make a set for the front and also a set for the rear of the WTC any tips would be really appreciated

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 21, 2012, 09:05:39 PM
You may as well try it out, as you have it. Worse case scenario is the boat is unstable, then you may need to reconsider.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 23, 2012, 09:40:54 PM
Vanguard now in primer ready for the top coat in the morning got to prime the sail  and then fix it to the hull also got to make the scopes



(http://s7.postimage.org/5pbvgomvb/DSCF2643.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5pbvgomvb/)


(http://s9.postimage.org/m1059q8uz/DSCF2642.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m1059q8uz/)


(http://s14.postimage.org/6lg61fre5/DSCF2640.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6lg61fre5/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 24, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Looks nice. Don't know if you have reference for the casing grills- they should ideally have a horizontal/vertical cross-hatch as opposed to diagonal, and be flush with the hull. Depends on how picky you are about details. You can get brass photoetched grill sheet from EMA's or the 4D modelshop. Ramesh used some on his Typhoon.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/Vanguard/114CasingDrainageOpening.jpg)

Hope you're going to drill some more holes in the deck than that- trapped wind can be embarrassing.

Did you get the link I sent you for the Photobucket Vanguard gallery?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 24, 2012, 01:59:28 PM
Andy I didnt get the link from you can you reasend it please as to the grill I have used what I had to hand which do the job and look the part I dont know if anyone else will notice that the grill is not the proper item, if any of the rivet counters mention the grills where I sail I will just have to say that the MOD class the grills as top secret and that this is my idea of how they look and  I am still having a problem sourcing  the nuclear reactor so I am going to use an electric motor and batteries for now,  >>:-( <*<

 :-))
Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on February 24, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
Now I like that thinking, Mark...b/s baffles brains every time.

Nice one...




Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 24, 2012, 03:56:59 PM
It would have to be someone who knows the boat fairly well to notice, and it would need to be close-up too.

I've resent an invitation to the gallery via photobucket, if that doesn't arrive, then have a look in your spam filter to see if it's got caught in that.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 24, 2012, 05:19:33 PM
Oh it got caught Andy along with about 300 other messages for some reason outlook stopped receiving from that mailbox  sorted now though thanks for the link some nic pics on there. got my hull in top coat now working on the scopes have rethought the batteries and am going to go for 12v NiMH in the wet obviousley sealed just got to source some local lead now the church roof around the corner looks inviting pity I hate high places  {-)

Thanks again for the link Andy

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 24, 2012, 08:35:06 PM
top coat of paint now on and dry scopes starting to take shape loosely in position a couple more to make think I need to dull the paint down a bit.


(http://s15.postimage.org/xowmrnp1j/DSCF2647.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xowmrnp1j/)

(http://s11.postimage.org/ycrz2imin/DSCF2648.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ycrz2imin/)

(http://s12.postimage.org/6xbmt42ft/DSCF2649.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6xbmt42ft/)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on February 24, 2012, 08:58:54 PM
Gold colored rotor!?.... Yuck!

And grab some window-screen material and fake some tiles, will ya?

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 24, 2012, 09:06:51 PM
Rotor is brass as it came from Bob as to "Grab some window-screen material and fake some tiles, will ya?" I would if I knew what you was talking about David

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 24, 2012, 09:17:35 PM
I think Dave means net curtain! Use it as a mask with an airbrush.

I think the prop is silicone bronze- looks like brass, but much stronger stuff. If you do paint it, consider etch priming first. Interesting that Simon has used a heavier alloy for this prop, he used to cast them from aluminium like the shroud.

On the subject of rotors, I watched a program the other night about Rolls Royce, and how they construct their jet engines. They showed some of the construction of the fanjet blades. Made from Titanium in a composite fashion (top secret technique) each blade costs as much as a family car (yikes!!).

Rolls Royce make the propulsors for RN subs, and they base them on fan jet technology, so I think they may use titanium blades for the props. So a dull silver may be more authentic.

Pure conjecture of course- these things are hush hush.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on February 24, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
Pickle the rotor in some acid, rinse it off with fresh water, dry it, and squirt it with the base color.

Go to your DIY shop, find a roll or remnant of that plastic window-screen stuff, and use it as a mask as you shoot a slightly darker/lighter color of the base coat. Wa-la: tiles.

David

(http://s15.postimage.org/ocjzajekn/DSCN0037.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ocjzajekn/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/yqcyavmur/DSCN0041.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yqcyavmur/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/k9uaa1mr7/DSCN0045.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/k9uaa1mr7/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/65yf1nfjn/DSCN0052.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/65yf1nfjn/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 24, 2012, 10:38:02 PM
Thanks for the tip will be doing that before the finish still bits to do
one question though what acid to use and pickle for how long ?? please

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on February 25, 2012, 12:19:00 AM
Ferric Chloride. Same stuff they sell for acid-etching/cutting circuit boards and PE part frets. Warm it up a bit, dunk the part and scrub it with a brush (acid-brush ... duh!) till the metal turns dark, oxidizes. Pull out of the acid, put into some soapy water, scrub with the brush but do not polish. Dry, prim and paint.


(http://s7.postimage.org/k7awu3x1z/DSCN0100.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/k7awu3x1z/)

(http://s17.postimage.org/9igxjewm3/DSCN0132.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9igxjewm3/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/3jw9u3o1f/DSCN0133.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3jw9u3o1f/)

(http://s14.postimage.org/9pj0svfy5/DSC_0035.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9pj0svfy5/)

(http://s14.postimage.org/5vpkjpym5/DSCN0048.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5vpkjpym5/)


(http://s18.postimage.org/tdpj6eqat/DSCN0052.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tdpj6eqat/)

(http://s17.postimage.org/bbt0z7wkb/DSCN0054.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bbt0z7wkb/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/eyxccgprn/DSCN0056.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eyxccgprn/)

(http://s17.postimage.org/a0pv4hqcb/DSCN0114.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a0pv4hqcb/)

(http://s13.postimage.org/kzzmna1rn/DSC_0037.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kzzmna1rn/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 25, 2012, 07:04:24 AM
Dunno if you can get that window sticker stuff over here. You can get builders scrim, that works well.

Etch primer has acid in it already, so it does the etching and priming in one hit. You can get 1k Upol etch primer in aerosolf form from Halfords, quite expensive (about a tenner for acan), but you only need a little bit, so a can will last a long time.

Dave's method works well too, but be warned Ferric Chloride will stain anything it comes into contact with, clothes, furniture, skin etc. So make sure you wear an apron old clothes when using it, and work somewhere non-critical to domestic harmony. Silicone bronze will end a bit more of a dunking than white metal.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 25, 2012, 02:07:33 PM
I wouldn`t know where to get Ferric Chloride from not seen it on the shop shelves over here they have all the fun in the U.S. will use an etch primer. as to the scrim we got builders on site where I work so I will ask a Bob the builder for some but I dont know how well black will show up on dark volvo gray will give it a try anyway, if I have to repaint then so be it cant have it not looking right can we.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 25, 2012, 03:05:43 PM
You can get Ferric Chloride from Maplins, Rapid and other electronics warehouses. It comes ready mixed, or in pellet form where you mix it with water and store it in a plastic bottle
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 29, 2012, 06:51:10 PM
New test tank was picked up today .................................and inflated


(http://s12.postimage.org/ni5h3gx3d/DSCF2653.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ni5h3gx3d/)
Then filled with H2O     :D O0 :D

Balance of the Vanguard is not to bad need to add about 700gms to the rear of the sub to balance her then going to slowly add weight to her midships to get her down to the correct water line took two photos of her in the test tank ................

(http://s7.postimage.org/skrky7753/DSCF2654.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/skrky7753/)


(http://s17.postimage.org/bfki33ffv/DSCF2655.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/bfki33ffv/)

no leaks at all on the front and rear chambers  BUT found a tiny leak on a  seam of the ballast tank which I have resealed lost the light now so will start again on Monday now

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on February 29, 2012, 07:04:16 PM
Did someone delete my post here?

David D Merriman lll
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 29, 2012, 08:28:12 PM
Didn`t see a post from you David.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on February 29, 2012, 08:59:56 PM
Will that larger forward compartment will move the centre of buoyancy too far forward I wonder? You may need to put some foam in the stern to bring it in line with the centre of gravity.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 29, 2012, 11:04:50 PM
I have put 700 gms of lead into the stern of the sub and that got it to sit level but the water line was well off. I will have to sort out some lead sheet for under the ballast tank to get the sub to sit at the correct water line was not enough weight in the sub at time of test for a compleate dive plus the top was off hopefully the next test will rectify any problems

Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 01, 2012, 09:52:44 AM
Adding and moving the lead about until the boat sits level on the surface will align the centre of gravity with the centre of buoyancy. The latter is most likely forward of where you want it to be, because the forward cylinder is longer than the rear cylinder. So it will look fine on the surface, but might go pear shaped once you fill that ballast tank, because that will shift the centre of gravity aft, and throw out the boats trim.


The large lead acid battery up front will help you out though. they weigh far more than they displace. So you will need more buoyancy up front to compensate for that.

You'll find out one way or the other when you fill the tank to take it under. If you look at the commercial cylinders, the compartments are almost always of equal volume e.g. your Sheerline Akula. So much of the hard work has already been done for you.

You get the position of the centre of gravity with the boat on dry land. You can hang a piece of string underneath the boat like a sling, aligning with the centre of the ballast tank- if the weight distribution is correct, it should balance at that point. Tricky hanging a boat this size, but you get the idea.

With the boat in the test tank, flood ballast and observe the boat. If it isn't sitting level you will need to add foam or some other form of buoyancy below the waterline to compensate.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 01, 2012, 10:10:11 AM
Fantastic explanation of how to ballance the sub, greatly received Andy, work has had to stop now until Monday/Tuesday due to work getting in the way

      Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 01, 2012, 09:49:50 PM
Thinking about your hanging a large boat from a sling probably better to ballance boat on a peice of dowl on a flat table you would get the boat to ballance that way

     Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 01, 2012, 10:22:52 PM
Helmut Huhn in Germany has an interesting way of mounting his subs- notice they're balance at the C.G point-

(http://www.ubootmodelltechnik.de/images/Helmut_Huhn/Helmuts%20UBoote%2001.jpg)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 02, 2012, 01:10:02 AM
(deleted, I got stupid)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: timsenecal on March 02, 2012, 05:12:12 AM
septuplets?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 02, 2012, 10:07:21 AM
He's been building those boats since the 1960's (nothing is really new...). Saw an article in a an old issue of Model Boats magazine from about 1968 I think it was, and it was about these subs, although there were fewer then. The boats feature high levels of automation, so he can sail several at once from one transmitter. Control looks like it is reed based- note the banks of relays!

There is lots more to see at the link, not much text, but plenty of nice pictures. Worth going to the home page and taking a gander at some of the other stuff there too.

http://www.ubootmodelltechnik.de/helmut_huhn.htm
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 05, 2012, 02:15:51 PM
Right I have just been to the scrap yard and bought what feels like a 100 weight of lead  %% bit to much weight if you ask me has anyone got a rough guesstimate of what a vanguard should weigh in at only roughly now I know I have built the wtc non standard and I will have to allow for that also in an earlier post it was mentioned that I may need to put some foam in the rear of the sub bellow the water line to compansate for the front chamber of the wtc if that is so what foam do I use ? can I use the foam that they wrap pipe in ??
thanks in advance

Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 05, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Because it's a wet hull, the amount of lead needed depends on the size of cylinder used, so it will vary from Vanguard to Vanguard, even though they're the same size boat.

The easiest way to get a pretty accurate estimate is to first calculate the volume of your cylinder- 3.14x cylinder radius squared x cylinder length.

Your cylinder is 10cm diameter, not sure on length, but it looks about 90 cm so I'll use that figure as an example.

3.14x25x90= 7065 ml displacement or 7.1 litres. 1 litre equals 1kg (metric makes things so simple) so that's 7.1kg.

Weigh the cylinder with all it's components installed, lets say it weighs 2kg with everything plumbed in, then subtract that from the 7.1kg. Subtract a further 0.5kg to allow for the extra density of the GRP hull, and you will also need to factor in the lead acid battery which will weigh considerably more than the water it displaces. I don't know what figure will be, but it's easy to calculate- area of base times height, all in cm will give you the batteries displacement in ml. divide that figure by a 1000 to give you a figure in litres.

Weigh the battery in kg's, and subtract the displacement figure. Lets say the figure you get is 0.5kg.

So for our hypothetical cylinder, we have 7.1-2-0.5-0.5= 4.1kg of lead

This is gross simplification, because there are many things I haven't factored in, like the heavy metal propulsor at the stern, the external tie rods, and even the displacement of the lead weight itself, but it gives you an idea of what you need, and you should get a figure between 10-15% of what you need.

Regarding foam, most people use the closed cell pink or blue coloured foam, it's quite firm to the touch. But there it's quite likely you won't need any.

All the above assumes the cylinder sits completely below the waterline when the boat is surfaced. Anything that sits above will reduce the amount of lead you need in the keel.



Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 05, 2012, 04:47:30 PM
I think I've posted it before, but I'll post it again as it's a very useful link that allows you to quickly and accurately calculate all kinds of volumes, including some really tricky shapes, like ellipses, truncated cones and even barrels. Saves a lot of time.

http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/index.html

The old saying of rubbish in, rubbish out applies, so you need to be careful any numbers you put in are correct. I use cm for all my measurements, and the results given back are in millilitres (ml).
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 05, 2012, 04:53:53 PM
Mark, should you need any blue foam, give me a shout, I have loads of it here.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 05, 2012, 05:12:58 PM
Thanks Andy I worked out very roughly and got to about 4Kg`s. Think I bought to much lead ah well it will go into the Traf when I start her. so if the weather is nice tomorrow then the test tank will be re inflated and filled and the real testing will begin O0. thanks for the offer of the blue foam Rich I will let you know if I will need some thanks again for the offer

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 05, 2012, 05:25:02 PM
You may need to add foam and more lead to get it stable.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 05, 2012, 05:37:48 PM
Thanks Andy I worked out very roughly and got to about 4Kg`s. Think I bought to much lead ah well it will go into the Traf when I start her. so if the weather is nice tomorrow then the test tank will be re inflated and filled and the real testing will begin O0. thanks for the offer of the blue foam Rich I will let you know if I will need some thanks again for the offer

Regards Mark

No worries Mark, I had a stack of the stuff given to me, so if it helps you out...I'll give some to you.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on March 05, 2012, 07:08:50 PM
When we were trimming mine, with the immense help of Dennis Pond, we found it would go down parallel fine to the top of the tower and just that bit of bouyancy from that mad it go down stern first - it tokus a heckof alot of head scratching and moving a tiny amount of lead around to get it right - then low and behold the minute it was in water a tad higher in temperature than that we trimmed at, it went out again. My battery is up front, is a gel type Yuasa of 12 volt, 3 amp approx - I chose this as it was a tad smaller than my original 4 amp one that stuck up above the water line - the lower curent one is just below the water line but we had to compromise and have the water line a bit lower than I would have liked. If I was doing it again, and I may do a refit sometime, I'd choose a smaller diameter WTC, but slightly longer to keep the tank volume, just to get as much WTC below the required water line and more importantly get the batteries either below or inside the wtc...... I think this design suffers from its length against diameter  - long 'n thin, and the tower not being more central. I think mr Sheerline had similar issues with his Ohio?? I am lead to understand it is in drydock being looked at presently?? Incidently my WTC is a bog standard OTW one which I had an increased volume water tank fitted to because of trimming issues.....!

Good luck and I look forward to sailing with you at the next Dive-in. Andy - when is it??
 Cheers
Jim
(http://s15.postimage.org/oc9s5ai3r/IMG_1750.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/oc9s5ai3r/)

(http://s9.postimage.org/xgsbj4rnf/IMG_1757.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xgsbj4rnf/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 05, 2012, 08:20:01 PM
I'm sorry I can't commit to any dates for a Dive-in at the moment (had many enquiries already). This is a busy year for me- all got to do with some obscure sports event taking place in London!

If there is a Summer event, it will be more modest than last years event, and it's also likely to take place at a different time, because quite a few show dates have been moved forwards this year for some reason and June is now packed with dates!

Regarding the trim issues with the Vanguard, Dennis knows his onions, but are you sure there is no air getting trapped underneath the deck?

Failing that, a servo controlled weight may be the answer, don't think you'd need much.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 05, 2012, 09:09:47 PM
I need to recalculate now thought I would re weigh everything which was lucky because I have discovered my WTC weighs in at just under 3Kg don't know weather I can just take of a Kilo of lead from my calcs or is that to simple if I have to recalculate then it can wait till the morning

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 05, 2012, 09:28:43 PM
Yep, just remove a kilo.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 05, 2012, 10:03:30 PM
Thanks for the quick reply Andy you will have to sort out a dive in this summer mate I owe you a load of drink  O0

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bonehead on March 06, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
Andy  - Yes, trapped wind is a strong possibilty!! I have been approaching the drilling of strategic holes with reservation as I don't want it to look like a sieve and unrealistic... I add a few and try it again to see any improvement. May bring a drill with me at the next dive session!! I have had some success with spraying the inside with a weak soap solution and the better with shower glass cleaner - much better!! The long deck doesn't help much - which I've added holes to the silo details scribed in their lids/covers. I'll get there in the end!!!
Jim
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 06, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
I think that when I fit the top of the hull to the rest of the hull I am going to have a similar problem to yours Jim not enough holes drilled for the trapped air to escape will just have to see should know later on today once the test tank is inflated and filled

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 06, 2012, 09:38:32 AM
Candidates for ventilation include about two dozen holes scribed in to the deck for the retractible bollards, the silo hatch doors have vents as already mentioned, and you really could do with a larger hole or two at the stern, as air bubbles tend to get chased back there and trapped.

If you open up that little lot, I can't see you getting any problems with air bubbles under the deck, but you can't ever have too many really, it's a compromise between what looks right and what works right. Earlier boats are a good teacher, especially those of WWII, their decks were full of holes or slots to enable good ventilation and improve dive times.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 06, 2012, 10:25:07 AM
Do you have air release holes in the sail, Mark? I would hazard a guess that any trapped air would end up in the highest point on the boat?


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 06, 2012, 11:37:11 AM
Have a look at post 263.


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 06, 2012, 01:09:48 PM
Why whats wrong with post 263 ?? top vent holes not yet drilled into deck area.

Have just put sub into test pool and got the water line spot on I think according to the plans the water line runs along the same line as the side sensor array (very star trek that) got the sub to dive but guess what Andy was right need a little bit of foam in the rear just to stop her dropping her tail first, used a bit of expanded polystyrene as a trial and that seemed to correct the dive here is a video without any foam at all in the tail. Hope you enjoy

http://youtu.be/Dkd2uqVSn5c

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 06, 2012, 01:16:53 PM
Sail is hollow Rich and their is a large hole under the sail so air can escape that way 15 holes in the deck as suggested seems to let all the trapped air out from under the deck

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 06, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
Sail is hollow Rich and their is a large hole under the sail so air can escape that way 15 holes in the deck as suggested seems to let all the trapped air out from under the deck

Regards Mark

Excellent Mark, glad it all seems to be operational...well done that man, pleased for you. Now I guess it's my turn...mine should be here tomorrow with a bit of luck.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 06, 2012, 01:35:44 PM
No nothing wrong with post 263, Mark. Just pointed Richard towards it, as it the picture at the top showed you had already filed out all the slots in the top of the sail.

Video looks good. Takes a while to dive, but that's to be expected for a tank that size with a small geared pump. Do you have to fill the tank completely to get it under?

Spotted a little bit of torque roll from the prop, but the boat recovers quickly, suggesting things are stable. Quite a bit of ventilation from the propulsor which is to be expected with the boat surfaced. If you look at Ramesh's Typhoon you'll notice he trims it stern down so that the propulsors get a bit more bite. The 1:1 Typhoon captains do this, not sure if they do likewise with the Vanguard, all the pictures and video I've seen show them trimmed level, so perhaps not. 
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 06, 2012, 04:39:04 PM
Yeah, I note that a pre-swirl stator (and If I had to do it again, I would put less pitch on those blades), when you're going a-stern exacerbates the torque of the rotor, rolling the boat excessively.

Ideally net torque in the ahead direction will be zero if the pump-jet is designed and constructed correctly. However, as I designed and built this pump-jet, I introduced too much angle on the stator blades. The result is that the OTW VANGUARD propulsor stator produces a bit more torque than the rotor. Not much, but enough to notice if the metacentric height built into the boat is not terribly high.

Sorry about that.

David


(http://s8.postimage.org/4085qdqch/DSCN0086.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4085qdqch/)

(http://s15.postimage.org/rbgn4vmt3/DSCN0093.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rbgn4vmt3/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/t59tsoipj/DSCN0020.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t59tsoipj/)

(http://s17.postimage.org/icupm7qdn/DSCN0027.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/icupm7qdn/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/7b15ro09h/DSCN0076.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7b15ro09h/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 06, 2012, 05:21:48 PM
The original propulsor supplied with this kit had the fixed stator blades as a much more shallow angle of attack, just a few degrees, four or five at most, but it still provides a lot of counter torque.

One day we may get to see what the real ones look like!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 06, 2012, 05:45:47 PM
Indeed, Andy.

.... some day.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 06, 2012, 06:11:14 PM
Very nearly had a second video this evening BUT I couldn`t for the life of me get the foam to stay in position no matter how I tryed to stick it I think it might be over the top to use no nails so I will purchase some more bath sealent in the morning ready to restart ballancing on Saturday.
 Dave the stator looks fantastic think its just the case of learning not to increase speed from a dead stop to quick. It looks better than just a prop on their and it do`s the job thanks

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 06, 2012, 06:20:16 PM
Is 'No nails' waterproof? Silicone is though.

Blu tack sometime works for temporary fixing.

Propulsors look very jet-set, but you'll discover the fixed shroud doesn't help the turning circle.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 06, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
maybe just maybe I dont want to go round in circles  %% %% {-) silicon it is then

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 10, 2012, 07:29:37 PM
Will be finding out about that turning circle on the morrow Andy off to new brighton to launch the Vanguard got the ballance pretty much where I want it to be I think waterline is very good submerges level and will sit level in my pool so...............HAPPY DAYS  Thanks to everyone who contributed while the build was on going. The Trafalgar is next  :D :D :D

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 10, 2012, 07:40:37 PM
Take pictures!

And take note of torque roll -- which direction, how much; any 'walking propeller' effects, so-on-and-so-forth. I want a full report.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 10, 2012, 08:29:54 PM
Pictures not a problem David, wife will be doing them with video as well but this is only my second sub David so please forgive me  but "walking propeller" effect ????

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 10, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
Good explanation on wiki- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk

Affects targets too.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bijou on March 10, 2012, 08:46:17 PM
HI,
@merriman-
I don't know anyting about these complicated propulsion sistem and I am a litle lost heare!  <:(
Yeah, I note that a pre-swirl stator (and If I had to do it again, I would put less pitch on those blades), when you're going a-stern exacerbates the torque of the rotor, rolling the boat excessively.

Ideally net torque in the ahead direction will be zero if the pump-jet is designed and constructed correctly. However, as I designed and built this pump-jet, I introduced too much angle on the stator blades....

(http://s8.postimage.org/4085qdqch/DSCN0086.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4085qdqch/)

(http://s15.postimage.org/rbgn4vmt3/DSCN0093.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/rbgn4vmt3/)
can You make some light heare?   PLEASE?
MARIUS
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bijou on March 10, 2012, 08:50:46 PM
I mean each propeller is mouving in oposite direction but with diffrent speed?  {:-{
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 10, 2012, 08:59:07 PM
A phenomena that is attendant to the rotation of a screw-type propeller in a fluid: Propeller Walking is a force, perpendicular, and along the horizontal plane, to the propellers axle. The direction of that yawing force in the direction of motion if the bottom tips of the blades were to enjoy the same type traction as those of a road wheel. For example: looking forward, a right-hand (clock-wise) turning propeller will 'walk' to the right; if left-handed (anti-clock-wise), the propeller would 'walk' to the left.

A single-screwed submarine with a right-hand turning propeller will (at the propeller disc) produce a yaw to the right when going ahead -- that force, working through the vessels c.g. will produce a swing of the vessel to the left and vice versa.

The walking effect is mitigated a bit by a shroud (Kort nozzle for example), and entirely by a properly designed pump-jet.

I'm asking you if you see much walking effect on your VANGUARD, as that is an indication of improper stator-rotor matching. I'm trying to gather some empirical data on the design as it stands today. I have dope on the prototype I built, but additional observation, from disinterested parties such as yourself, would help me refine cause and effect of the current arrangement.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 10, 2012, 10:25:09 PM
Thanks for the explination David now I know what I am looking for will report back with observations

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 10, 2012, 10:32:57 PM
Good luck Mark...I have the maiden voyage tomorrow of my Little Fella, here's hoping for fair weather and calm waters.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 10, 2012, 10:42:49 PM
I mean each propeller is moving in opposite direction but with different speed?  {:-{

Only the propeller spins. The other stators remain fixed, as the water is sucked in through the nozzle it's drawn over the fixed stators which produce a counter torque to keep the boat on an even keel (hopefully).
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 11, 2012, 12:00:53 AM
Thanks for the explination David now I know what I am looking for will report back with observations

Regards Mark


Thank you, sir.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 09:54:09 AM
Good luck on your maiden voyage as well Rich. going to be at New Brighton in about an hour.

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: batfish on March 11, 2012, 09:59:41 AM
Enjoy mark!!!

Get a wriggle on with traf.

Regards

Adam
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
Adam as I type this the plans are on the table just got a few tweaks to make to the Vanguard then we will be go go go on the Traf

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 03:47:43 PM
Well what a day at New Brighton it was a bit busy but got the Vanguard in the water and she went really well got a few small niggles to sort out she sits a bit high in the water at the stern so much so that the cowl sucks air in when going forward and causes cavitation is much better when the ballast tank has a bit of water in. The stern also drops when submerging I thought I had sorted that with the foam I had put in but I think she needs a bit more. On running forward their is no torque roll from the sub unless you apply full power from a dead stop. I think that what was happening in my pool was the water was washing around the pool and causing what looked like torque roll. going from full forward to full reverse causes torque roll but that is to be expected apply the throttle slowly and all is OK. Once the sub was trimmed she steered in a reasonable straight line I don't think their is any discernable `prop walk`. The water was a bit choppy this afternoon but the sub handled really well over all I was very please with the run I had. The wife took a couple of pictures but unfortunately the camera was set wrong so they didn't come out too well I have put the two best ones on here plus their is a link to Jan's Video on youtube. Hope you enjoy.


(http://s13.postimage.org/5tq867f5f/00113619.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5tq867f5f/)

(http://s16.postimage.org/g576clw9d/00113620.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g576clw9d/)

And the link to the video: http://youtu.be/9QufpN6ZSzI

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 11, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
Looking good. The prop is ventilating when near the surface, always a problem with spindle stern boats.

Seems to heel over quite noticeably with a cross wind, you could try a little more lead in the keel and some foam below the waterline to counter that.

Looks about scale speed wise, was it running full throttle in that film?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on March 11, 2012, 04:50:44 PM
Could I say how good that is looking, Mark!

And REALLY good for a maiden voyage.

You can afford a little more lead in the stern, I think. More foam and lead over the next few trials can improve the roll stability - it looks fine anyway.

You must be "dead chuffed"!

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bijou on March 11, 2012, 04:57:40 PM
HI,
Only the propeller spins. The other stators remain fixed, as the water is sucked in through the nozzle it's drawn over the fixed stators which produce a counter torque to keep the boat on an even keel (hopefully).
[/quote]
Now I understand. ;)  :-))

When was developed these system?.In a real world did working?.How come no one uses this system is if so revolutionary?!
THANK YOU SIR.
            MARIUS
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on March 11, 2012, 05:00:13 PM
Thank you for sharing, Mark. Looking good.

If overall buoyancy in submerged trim is near neutral, then you don't want to change the net buoyancy or weight. Here's how to fix that ass-end droop when the boat transitions to submerged trim: If you have any foam in the forward superstructure, above the waterline, then move that aft, above waterline -- this will help get the stern up in submerged trim. Check the plans again -- your model appears to be sitting too low in surfaced trim, Mark.

And your video: video dropped out between 6:50 and 9:00, but audio continues. Other than that, an enjoyable video.

And I share Andy's question: How much throttle was needed to get that beast moving at a reasonable speed?

David


(http://s15.postimage.org/4nb8xysuf/DSCN0040.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4nb8xysuf/)

(http://s12.postimage.org/qap30a1eh/DSCN0042.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qap30a1eh/)

(http://s15.postimage.org/jzuzrzs07/DSCN0069_0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jzuzrzs07/)

(http://s16.postimage.org/a3tg8z5ap/DSCN0087_0001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/a3tg8z5ap/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: bijou on March 11, 2012, 05:10:26 PM
MARK,
What battery did You use?.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 05:23:09 PM
Andy, David Merriman, throttle was full stick on the radio but I had reduced the throw by 50% in the program mode of the F16 seems to keep the speed about right I think. David thanks for the suggestions on getting rid of the bottom end droop will try to sort it next visit to the pond, as to the video I dont know whats happend their it was fine when I edited it ah well will retry that as well.

David (Davy1) yes you can, and thankyou, waswell chuffed David

bijou battery is 12 volt 2.5 amp hrs happend to have 2 of these lying around

Thanks for all the comments

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 11, 2012, 05:52:07 PM
Mark, that's excellent for a maiden voyage...my heartiest congratulations, old chap. A little tiddling and fiddling here and there and that will be a superb boat...I hope my LA turns out that good.




Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 06:00:43 PM
Thanks for the comments Rich but less of the OLD, cheeky git ha ha ha  will be tinkering away until I get it right.
Wife has just informed me that after I have built the Trafalger I now have sitting on the bench she want me to get one of them yellow things you have been playing with,going to tell her later that if she wants one she has got to learn how to use it  O0 might save some money then which could be used towards my dream Typhoon.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 11, 2012, 07:20:52 PM
So just half throttle then. Good stuff, should pick up its heels once you get the trim dialled in right. Don't forget the FC16 has exponential, so you can dial in full negative expo and have 100% throttle, but the majority of the stick travel will be lower speed. That way you have the extra oomph on tap to get out of trouble, should you need it.

Trim wise, the spigot just below the upper rudder, which is the connection point for the towed array, should be just kissing the surface of the water, so you might get a way with a tad more weight at the back. It looks a bit low at the bow though.

Regarding a boat for your wife, have you looked at the Delfin from Norbert Bruggen? A little left field, and not a static diver like the Neptune, but what a lot of fun these look. Nice dimensions for smaller puddles. Bet you'll be fighting her for the sticks!

http://modelluboot.de/KITS/Delfin_Ordner/Delfin.html

http://vimeo.com/26566825

Norberts stuff isn't cheap, but it's very well designed, and the parts are good quality with straight forward assembly.

Bijou, propulsor technology was pioneered in the UK on the Trafalgar class, but has been adopted by the U.S, Russians and French, although their designs differ significantly in design to UK versions. Why aren't they used more? Well every country has it's own ideas on what constitutes good design, I guess some consider the disadvantages of propulsors outweigh the advantages. They do tend to place a lot of weight at the stern, which may not suit the smaller boats many navies use, and then there are the development costs to be absorbed. Also a fixed shroud hinders manoeuvrability, so not so great for boats engaged in littoral operations.


Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 11, 2012, 07:30:02 PM
I will have to reread the manual for the F16 now then Andy. Thanks for the tip on the spigot. As to her being low on the bow thats got to be the batterie up front but I can slide a piece of lead a bit further rearward which will I hope put a bit more weight further back droping the stern and lifting the bow a bit thanks for them tips. Now as to the wife and a sub she realy likes the Neptune saying that we need one. suppose I could kill two birds with one stone she fancies one to put a video camera in so keeps her happy with the photography side of her id plus she gets to learn a new skill,Driving a sub. Jan says thanks for the links but she has her mind set on a Neptune

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Patrick Henry on March 11, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
You tell your wife she'll enjoy the Neptune immensely Mark, never mind about that old German stuff....get her a Neptune. Mine has worked perfectly since day one, and continues to do so...it's an ideal boat for the missus to learn to drive, just flood the tank down to wherever you want it, hit forward and that's it...off it goes.

A bit more speed wouldn't go amiss, but mine seems to hop along quite nicely once it gets a head of steam up.

And the benefits of having the wife as a sub driver and on your side...well, say no more!


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 11, 2012, 08:10:00 PM
The Neptune's a good boat, but they didn't half rip off Norberts ideas, you only have to look at his Delta to see where they got their ideas from. Pound to a penny there's one of Norberts kits sitting in the R&D department of TT.

Be careful you don't knock the C.G out if you start shifting lead about to correct the trim. If the boat balances at the centre of the ballast tank, then I'd leave the lead weight alone, and home in on the buoyancy.

At the moment, when the boat is on the surface, you have too much buoyancy at the back, and not enough at the front. If you have any foam at the back which is below the waterline with the boat surfaced, you could chip away at that. If not then add some foam at the front below the waterline, which will raise the bow.  That will align your buoyancy with gravity, then you just add some more lead underneath the ballast tank to bring the boat to the right waterline. Then you will most likely need to do the same with the tank flooded.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: REDDEVIL on March 11, 2012, 08:13:01 PM
Nice sub and nice run. Let's add a tribute to our wifes standing us with our subs and coming with us to film tests.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: gingyer on March 11, 2012, 08:19:33 PM
Looks good :-))
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Sub driver on March 11, 2012, 09:16:45 PM
Hi Mark.
Nice vid and a cracking first outing...yours handles very similar to my Vanguard, must be the characteristics of the hull shape.

I still think its the best looking nuke out there..certainly beats my typhoon on looks. 
 
Well done once again.
Regards sub.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 12, 2012, 08:12:10 AM
I will have to reread the manual for the F16 now then Andy.

If your manual is the same as mine, then the infromation on the exponential was added on as a separate sheet, which may be missing as yours was a secondhand set. If it is, go to this link and you'll find the expo instructions on page 105 of the PDF.

http://www.instructionsmanuals.com/u2/pdf/radio_control/Futaba-FC16-en.pdf

However I've noticed something I clean forgot- the exponential function isn't programmed to work on the throttle, works on the other three stick channels though. So you have a choice here, you can live without expo on the throttle, or you can swap a couple of the channels over inside the set (easy to do on the F-series radios).
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 20, 2012, 03:57:03 PM
Fantastic Mayhem is back well done Martin and Thankyou for your hard work.

Have acquired a couple of levelers one for the Vanguard which has been fitted and will be tested at Hoylake or New Brighton on Wednesday the second is earmarked for the Trafalgar which I have tentatively started by finishing the drilling and filling of the flood hole in the bottom of the hull.


(http://s18.postimage.org/mk93g6vjp/DSCF2662.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/mk93g6vjp/)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 20, 2012, 04:01:05 PM
I see you have the (slightly) larger leveller with the infra red receiver, so as you have a clear module you can set up all the functions using an old TV remote with the leveller mounted inside the cylinder.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 20, 2012, 04:03:27 PM
Andy would a TV remote work ?? and if so how would that be used I have loads of TV remotes hanging around.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 20, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
Yep, that is the idea. Try one of your remotes (make sure the batteries are okay!), it won't harm the controller.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 21, 2012, 03:22:36 PM
Well I took the Vanguard out today to New Brighton and ran with my Akula the Vanguard started suffering with bad Radio interference so much so that every time I applied power to the motor all other servos went off on one by them selves. Took the sub out of the water and removed the top interference was not as bas as when in the water. I double checked all frequency's being used and their was no clash so just put it down to general interference a passer by commented that it had happend before and was blamed on a radio mast on some flats  <*<. Anyway had a good couple of hours with the Akula which alwas runs realy well. Got home and decided to have a look at the Vanguard and low and behold the interferance was still their  >>:-( >>:-( couldn't believe it never had the problem before in the house or back garden, anyway striped the WTC down and moved the Ariel into the front WTC and guess what no interference at all. I think for some reason the drive motor has started to transmit on the 40 meg band checked the capacitors on the drive motor and they seem fine so  I am stumped as to why all of a sudden this has started to happen.

   Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 21, 2012, 03:50:47 PM
That does sound very odd, assuming you haven't altered anything in the layout.

You can try fitting some ferrite rings to the motor leads, and the motor casing should be earthed, otherwise the capacitors aren't really doing a whole lot.

Hopefully the BEC is up to the task of powering four servos?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 21, 2012, 04:03:32 PM
Must have been a good day for it then...my Neptune is normally 100% reliable, but today for some reason the ballast pump failsafe kept kicking in and not letting me take on water to submerge. All she would do was to run about on the surface at half speed with the ballast pump continually in the 'blow' position and using valuable battery power.

Isn't there a huge solar storm going on though? Remembering back to my pirate radio days, these storms used to play havoc with radios and radio control systems.



Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Sub driver on March 21, 2012, 04:50:17 PM
Grimreaper.

Hi.
I had the same issue with my Engel Akula shortly after I built it, its the one with all the electrical add ons...fitted some ferrite blocks on all the power leads and it curred the problem for me.
Just check the receiver power too as subculture says, to be on the safe side try it with a separate receiver batt without the BEC and see what it does.

Hope its of use.
Regards Sub.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 21, 2012, 04:57:54 PM
Sub Driver thanks for the tip but running off a 12V sla through a bec is a decent speed controler as well

Andy nope I havent altered anything capacitors across the terminals and onto the motor case, also Andy Ifound a loose ribbon cable in my F16 sorted that as well now

Rich sun spots they aint no sun here in the north west  {-) thought that all hit last week with a bit of a wimper so them in the know said in the daily rags

sorted now will give it another whirl on monday

Regards Mark.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 21, 2012, 06:00:58 PM
Worth checking the wire that connects to the TX aerial too- they're known for working loose on the F14/FC16, it's a bit of a weak area on those sets.
On 12 volts the BEC is working harder than it would say on 7-8 volts. This is because anything over the regulated voltage (5v) is shunted to ground and burnt off in heat. That tends to reduce the BEC's capacity a bit. Most BEC's built into ESC's can deliver 1-1.5A maximum. That should be enough, but it does depend greatly on how your servos are set-up e.g. minimum binding/friction.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 21, 2012, 06:07:46 PM
So realy I should not use the BEC and should go for a seperate power supply for the receiver and servo`s ?

   Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 21, 2012, 06:11:30 PM
No I would keep the BEC, but do bear in mind that they can sometimes cause problems if over-taxed.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 21, 2012, 06:43:54 PM
Right got you Andy was thinking that it was better to run with seperate power for the radio side. If I think back to my U47 I had a similar problem with that until the St Albans meeting when a couple of guys sorted it but that was using a Hong Kong controler


Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 21, 2012, 07:40:42 PM
With a BEC providing your main battery is well charged, you should always have a good, healthy 5 volt feed to your radio. A separate battery presents an additional failing load IMO.

The problem with BEC's on some ESC's is they're minimally specced, or poorly heatsinked, and are often poorly documented on what they can really deliver in terms of performance. That's why I stick with, and recommend certain ESC's especially for use in submarines which tend to be a bit more demanding than most model boats.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 21, 2012, 10:27:03 PM
Oh naff.

Think I've discovered why the Neptune failed me today...I charged the main 12v battery last night, just checked it now and it's reading less than 11 volts, so it looks as though the battery is dying. It only had five minutes use today, so I'm thinking that's the problem, the failsafes are programmed to come in when the battery voltage drops to prevent the boat from submerging, or to bring it up by blowing ballast.

Now might be the time to get away from the low capacity gel cell (12v 2000ma/h) and think about a higher capacity NimHs pack...or dare I mention the word LiPo?



More expense.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 22, 2012, 07:10:53 AM
Don't think Lipo will work well for you, as the pack voltage is lower- 3S= 11.1 volts. NimH or LiFE batteries are best course of action (12v and 12.8v respectively). Great thing about LiFE battery- they hold their charge when sat-up on the shelf, and they have a longer cycle life, on the minus side you need a charger compatible with them, and not that many are.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 22, 2012, 07:51:42 AM
I think I'll go down the Paul Cook road and get a set of NimH cells...if I remember rightly Paul used two six volt 5000a/h sub C packs in his Neptune.

The gel cell has been on charge from 2200hrs last night and is only just showing 12volts.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 22, 2012, 08:31:54 AM
Now it seems to have woke itself up...just put a meter across the battery and it's reading between 12.8v and 13.3v...
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 22, 2012, 09:09:13 AM
Think you should start a new thread on this, Rich- taking Mark's thread a bit off track.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 26, 2012, 11:17:40 AM
Some other things to try.

Is your water pump suppressed with capacitors? Some are, some aren't- the motors in some of these pumps can be very electrically dirty. Also ensure the motor casings are grounded, otherwise the capacitors aren't really doing anything.

Is your aerial run inside or outside the WTC? Running it outside will usually give better reception, but you need a watertight gland for it to run through.

Try and keep power cables and signal cables apart as much as possible- difficult in a sub I know. Twisting power cables together helps cancel out interference.

What brand of ESC are you using?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 26, 2012, 10:58:54 PM
Glad you asked that one Andy its a PODIUM FS-POD17T. I striped the fc16 today swaped channels over & which ever channel I ran the motor from their was severe interferance resoldered the capacitors, water pump is suppressed I did that from day one after someone on here mentioned they had problems went to maplin this morning and got hold of some ferrite rings. Striped all the wiring down twisted the cables to the motor clipped a ferritte clamp to that. At about 8PM I decied to replace the radio system with a tested unit and all works fine.I even replaced the receiver using one from a truck I have which I know works. Getting round to thinking of a possible incompatability between the radio and speed controller I also removed the red wire from the speed controller and used a seperate power supply for the radio.

    Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 26, 2012, 11:17:20 PM
So you've swapped out the receiver, or receiver and transmitter? Incompatibility between ESC and receiver would be very unusual, you have a Car ESC and the BEC may be struggling with four servos hooked into it.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 08:21:52 AM
Thanks Andy I have removed the red wire from the BEC/Speed controler and ran the radio from a receiver battery pack with the same results all servos juddering when power applied. next course of action is to replace the stick and pots on the radio to put my mind at ease that its not a fault on the stick mechenism.

   Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 10:12:14 AM
Also just compleated a couple of range checks on the radio as original set up when at the pond range at best was 6 foot. Took radio to bottom of garden and all servos flutter like crazy at just over 8 foot from sub
changed radio and receiver go to bottom of garden no servo flutter at all Radio fully operational across all functions
Take fc-16 and set up on kitchen table with 4 spare servos go to bottom of garden Radio fully operational over all functions only differance is that their was no speed controler connected in this test

am going to connect a spare speed controler next and check that out only problem is that the speed controler is a blue Hong Kong special with the magic smoke in it I know this cos I had 3 of em and 1 let all its smoke out and then wouldnt work  <:( <*<

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 11:19:43 AM
O.K. Conclusion has got to be that their is an incompatabilty between the fc-16 and the podium speed controller and BEC as nothing that I do will suppress the interfeirence I get when the motor is runing. As stated in last post have now connected the radio up to a blue Hong Kong speciel no blue smoke was emitted and everything worked ok no servo flutter no motor fluctuations what so ever. My Akula runs with an MTronics 20 amp marine Viper so I think I will be buying a couple of them and replace the controler I have now. Thanks Andy for the tips and help on this.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on March 27, 2012, 01:23:50 PM
Hi Mark,

As Andy says, it would be unusual to have incompatibility problems with ESC but Mtronix should be fine. (Mtronix and Microgyro are widely used.)

Remember that with model subs and lots of servos you are rather  "on the edge" of BEC circuits. Once one servo starts juddering the voltage drop can can get them all doing it.

I have moved over to separate switched mode BECs (I do still get some interference problems and Sub John warns against switch mode because of harmonics. You really can't win!)

You have done the right thing by simplifying (unplugging things) and swapping things but everyone's setup is different.

Personally, I made the biggest improvement in interference by moving to dual conversion receivers.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 01:42:25 PM
Find it strange myself David but after all the running around and testing the only conclusion is that the BEC/speed controller is interfering with the radio the crystal and receivers are duel convertion. I am going to go and buy a couple of MTronics marine speed controllers and use as a swap out on the vanguard and one for the Trafalgar I am building I don't have any problem with the Akula running that set up even with the fc-16 their is no hint of interference at all think Mr Cloak puts something in the fibers of his hulls  O0 {-). As to the voltage drop and juddering I had that problem with my U47 and was advised to use separate batteries and that did solve the problem with U47, unfortunately it didn't do anything for the vanguard I will get a new speed controller and hopefully that will solve the problem. thanks for the tips and advice though David.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 27, 2012, 02:42:40 PM
I prefer Microgyros ESC over Mtroniks- less expensive and better specification, and they also have some nice sub friendly features like a programmable 2 second built in throttle failsafe.

I'm perplexed by this problem, owning an FC16 myself I know there is nothing unusual about this radio, unlike some of the later Futaba sets which don't conform to the older PPM standards and can cause issues with some third party kit.

You can purchase  high current linear BEC's. Jeti do some nice models, but they're quite expensive and bulky when compared with the switch-mode models, as you need a chunky heatsink. Course on a sub, if you were to make one of your end caps from metal, you have a fantastic heatsink that will get rid of any amount of heat.

You can also make your own up quite cheaply, but that requires a little electronics knowledge. the BEC's fitted to the majority of ESC's  are generally good for about 1-1.5A, so at 5 volts you're looking at a maximum of 7.5watts. Most bog standarad servos draw between 1-2 watts under normal duty, although they can draw up to twice that if stalled or labouring heavily.

In the case of your vanguard, although you have four servos hanging off the BEC, three of them are fairly low duty, the rear hydroplane servo will be the busy bee coupled up to a leveller. You should be okay so long as you haven't fitted anything fancy like digital servos, which are thirsty little critters.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 03:29:40 PM
First of all may I apologise for an error on my part the speed controller is not the one stated (wife cleaning up) the actual speed controller is a FUSION Aquapower FS-AQP128. Link here  http://www.logicrc.com/?ItemId=P-FS-AQP128&s=c:0,c:50,c:50-30,c:50-30-10,c:50-30-10-20 only has a BEC of 5v/1A sooo now I am at a dead end because that 1A is probably not enough to power the 4 servos with an auto leveler as well but I cant for the life of me understand why I get the same results with a separate battery powering the receiver.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 27, 2012, 04:01:58 PM
Quickie for Mark...foam en route mate, left the PO here @ 1523hrs.


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 04:27:42 PM
not into quickies  :embarrassed: thanks Rich I owe you a pint when we get to meet up mate

Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 27, 2012, 05:40:15 PM
A 1A BEC is pushing it a bit, but suck it and see.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 27, 2012, 09:05:27 PM
Andy thats what is in the Vanguard and it wasn't playing ball with the radio I have put my Laser 6 into her and she seems to behave even with the BEC still in, I will have to wait and see my next idea is to purchase a proper nuclear reactor for her bet that works  {-) %% going to be going for a new speed controller I think need to buy another one for the Trafalgar anyway may as well buy two
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 28, 2012, 01:24:01 PM
What receiver were you using in both instances? I thought you had a dual conversion Hitec model in there originally.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 28, 2012, 03:49:10 PM
Andy  1st receiver was the one that came with the radio FP-R118F the second receiver used is the Futaba R137F both receivers work away from the speed controller with no problem.

Radio that is in now is the Hitec Laser 6 which wait for it........................................................FAILED  <*<  to run the Vanguard with the Aquapower speed controller. So it`s of to Steve webb on the morrow to see if he has the same Viper that is in my Akula. And hopefully that will solve the problem

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 28, 2012, 04:55:45 PM
Fair enough. It's very unusual to get any problems with Futaba kit, it's well put together.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 29, 2012, 12:26:26 PM
Just orderd this little beastie hopefully it will end all of my woe`s and get me up and running with no problems

http://www.mtroniks.net/details1.asp/ProductID/190/sid/10/Viper-sub10.htm#

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 29, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
ooops... http://www.mtroniks.net/details1.asp/ProductID/722/sid/52/microViperMarine10.htm   %)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 29, 2012, 01:26:13 PM
No oooopppss Richard they are two totaly differant items your link is to the 10 amp marine version with I think 1 amp BEC the one I linked to is 40 amp with a1.5 amp BEC buils specificaly for subs. I did look at the exdemo section of the site but they don`t have the one I want their  <*<. but thanks anyway will possibly help someone else with the link or even remind them that their is the ex demo section as well.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on March 29, 2012, 01:46:29 PM
 :embarrassed:

I'll get me coat...
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on March 29, 2012, 01:49:48 PM
That's an interesting ESC - I haven't seen it before.

Looks like they have responded to submariner problems  i.e using high voltage (12v) systems.

I wonder if they use switched mode or analogue voltage regulators? Analogue probably - in which case no Radio Frequency interference as pointed out by SubJohn.

Thanks Mark for pointing this one out. Could well be worth the (fairly) high price. Let us know how it works out for you.

David

P.s and Richard put your coat back , I'm sure it is a rather new ESC!
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 29, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
No No David let him go  tone and lower and neighbourhood ha ha ha

It was good of Rich to point it out as I said it may help someone else in the future also it was a hell of a lot cheaper than the one I bought so well worth a point out

will keep you all informed of how it works out. The controller that Richard pointed out is actually being used in my Akula which I am realy proud of I can turn up at the pond connect the battery and basicly chuck her in and an hour later the battery will be flat so time to change it hope that the Vanguard will one day get that way. and I am reasonably optomistic about the Trafalgar being the same as the Akula.

Regards Mark

P.S bought a piller drill and ajustable hole cutter yesterday how easy is it to cut disks out now not a sign of wedging anything in anything now  {-)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on March 29, 2012, 03:40:35 PM
The main difference with the 'sub' versions is an increase in the linear BEC current from 1.2 to 1.5A to allow for extra servos, and a very large current rating of 40A. Not quite sure what sort of sub would need a motor pulling 40A, but it won't be taxed in the Vanguard.

There not new models, they've been around for a while now.





Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 01, 2012, 05:21:49 PM
Got the Vanguard wet today went quite well except for the turning circle she dont turn on a sixpence question now I am at the extreme travel on my servo cant put a bigger servo horn on the servo or at the rudder end is their any mechanicle way to increase the throw of a servo mechanicaly the other option I have is to remake the lower rudder out of perspex and make it bigger so their is a larger area.

some pics now


(http://s17.postimage.org/dus4wi23v/00013662.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dus4wi23v/)

(http://s16.postimage.org/dsitn9zqp/00013663.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dsitn9zqp/)


(http://s14.postimage.org/ik7i7i78d/00013660.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ik7i7i78d/)

Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 01, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
The sub looks low in the water but I had put some water into her to get the jet drive a bit lower in the water

regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 01, 2012, 05:28:52 PM
Thought about retro fitting a bow thruster, Mark? Either the proper Graupner ones (expensive) or a screenwash pump, sucking water in and blowing it out the other side...works a treat.


Rich


(looks good to me)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 01, 2012, 06:08:07 PM
I had  thought of that Rich but the problem is the battery sits up front so their isnt much room up front but hey great minds think alike  :-))

Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 01, 2012, 06:15:03 PM
I fitted one in my LA...two holes, one each side of the hull, s/wash pump mounted....somewhere, wherever it fits....connect the pipes up, proper job! I've been looking for the photos, but I can't find them, otherwise you'd have had an idea of what I'm babbling on about.  You can always trip the pump down, remove all the brackets and lumps n' bumps, makes them a lot smaller.

Boat looks good though, mate....nicely menacing.


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 01, 2012, 06:23:29 PM
Told you to build a Valiant class!  :}

Vanguards high aspect ratio plus a shrouded prop equals a large turning radius I'm afraid.

Thrusters work when the boat is static. Once you start moving they become ineffectual. You can put thrusters in stern as well as the bow, in fact they're more effective at the back, as they have a longer moment from the C.G.

A larger rudder will improve things, but don't ever expect it to turn like your Akula. Anything more than 35 degree throw on a control surface is pointless, as beyond that angle, it just stalls out.

Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 01, 2012, 06:28:20 PM
I used to use EMPBC's chairman's (Ken Bellman) large Sealink ferry, that had screenwash pump bow thrusters fitted, and they worked perfectly with the boat under way or stationary.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 01, 2012, 07:44:15 PM
The problem with thrusters is that they tend to produce very little force when compared with a control surface unless they're very powerful. Even at moderate velocity, the rudder on a Vanguard class at 1/100 will generate over half a pound of force.

At stop or very low speed, the thrusters have time to act on the hull, at higher speeds they don't have that luxury, so the effect is much reduced.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 01, 2012, 07:50:50 PM
Depends on how much water you move through the thrusters...a Volvo FL10 screenwash pump will pump an awful lot of water.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 02, 2012, 07:46:53 PM
The problem with using pumps is that they only have small outlets, and there's a limit to how much thrust you can generate through a small pipe. A prop inside a tube is the best solution, but the outlet is difficult to conceal on a scale model.

I think a larger rudder, or a clip on extension to the existing item is the answer. If you want to try a pump, it's worth pointing out that many of them can live quite happily in the wet areas.

He may also find some of the details in this link interesting- http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9621&p=55733&hilit=thrusters#p55733
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 02, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Thanks for the link Andy I had seen the Akula water pump before along with the video have not seen the Trafalgar Video though that was a nice video and re-enforced my thinking of extending the lower rudder on the Vanguard using perspex I have managed to get an extra 5- 8 degrees of movement on the Vanguard rudder so will give that a try before making an extension for the rudder.

Rich thanks for the info on the Volvo screen washer pump Father-in-law drives a Volvo if he find me using a Volvo part in a sub he will have a dickyfit  {-) O0 {-)

Regards Mark
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on April 03, 2012, 10:10:12 AM
Yes. Worth trying a clip on lower rudder, I would say.

One thing I also found with the R class (which was difficult to turn) is to ballast the boat a bit stern down and this improves the turn. I can only attribute this to the lower rudder then being more in the water flow and in less turbulent flow (from the hull)

For use in small ponds at Exhibitions, I also developed an external bow thruster unit (The magazine title was "The Strap on Bow Thruster"  %))

Best not to go there but I can dig out a copy if you want.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 08, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
One point that hasn't been mentioned- where did you site the centre of gravity on your model? For most Nuke boats with hulls of revolution, you can calculate the best point by dividing the length by 2.5. Take the answer (in the case of the Vanguard it's about two feet) and measure back from the tip of the bow. On the Vanguard it comes out at just past the second missile hatch, so that should be where the middle of the ballast tank is situated. If your C.G is forward of this, the boat will be very stable but less responsive to pitch and yaw, if it's aft the boat will be more responsive, but may be a little twitchy or unstable- experimentation is the key here. If you've ever flown aeroplanes, these principles are the same as having an aeroplane that is nose or tail heavy.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Davy1 on April 08, 2012, 05:20:32 PM
Interesting, Andy.

But I often see this comparison with aircraft being quoted e.g the importance of C of  G etc.

It is actually not a very helpful analogy. We are better off comparing submarines with airships, where static forces are more important than dynamic ones.

I guess that aircraft (rather than airship!) modellers predominate - hence this rather misleading comparison.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: merriman on April 08, 2012, 05:44:02 PM
Agreed. In the area of dynamic and static stability issues (as well as where the control surface moments originate), the airship-submarine analogy is preferred over the airplane (heavier-than-air)-submarine analogy; particularly when getting you mind around the importance of the longitudinal and vertical positions of the vehicles center of gravity, center of buoyancy and center of rotation.

Grab your kids Helium filled balloon, tape a penny on its bottom, and kick it around in the living room a while with the central-air on. Study its response to a chaotic environment -- you'll get an equivalents worth of knowledge otherwise acquired by sitting in on a few Newtonian physics classes.

David
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 08, 2012, 09:25:39 PM
I used the aeroplane analogy because most modelmakers have some prior experience in that area. Dirigibles are even more niche than subs, although I did consider comparing a sub to a model rocket, but again a little unusual.

I've always felt the boundaries are rather blurred, if you consider submarine boats like Graham Hawkes Deepflight submersibles which look far more like an aeroplane than a Zeppelin.

For those who wish to delve deeper into the theory, there is plenty of reference material out there on statics, hydrodynamics etc. and it all makes for fantastic bedtime reading.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: salmon on April 08, 2012, 11:17:28 PM
I have Norbert Bruggen's book on Submarine Technology. I can only understand 10% of it. What other sites are there that may explain what is in there to simple people like me? (crayon drawings are helpful)
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2012, 08:27:03 AM
Ahh, but which 10%?
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 09, 2012, 09:16:59 AM
Tom, I'm surprised at you! You're already a member of the finest model submarine forum there is....what more could you wish for?


www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com (http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com)




Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 09, 2012, 05:25:48 PM
hhmm a few more tips their especialy the C of G and C of B I am pretty certain that the ballance is now correct maybe a little more work needed on the submerged level with a bit more foam but the main thing is that the glitching of the servo`s has compleatley gone away so I am happy will be at New Brighton this Wednesday weather permiting possibly with an extended rudder to try

Thanks again for all the great tips

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on April 09, 2012, 06:47:52 PM
Glad to hear the radio troubles seem to be rectified.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 10, 2012, 02:33:08 PM
Glad to have sorted it as well Andy am now planing to run the Trafalgar with the FC16 radio as well have made a good start on the Traf and might put up a build log on here if anyone wants to have a look. plus I might be able to get a few tips as well  O0

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 23, 2012, 03:46:05 PM
R.I.P. Vanguard drive coupling destroyed itself on sunday  <:( <:( am now on the look out for a supplier of solid couplings 6mm x 4mm any help appreciated

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on April 23, 2012, 04:16:05 PM
Mark, get a diagram done of what you need and ask Nigel E ever so nicely if he would knock one up for you.


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on May 08, 2012, 02:43:39 PM
Vanguard back on the water today after my rebuild of the WTC to make the rear tube the same size as the front one I think now though she is sitting a bit to high in the water and needs a bit more weight in the bottom plus the weight needs to be a bit further forward as she is reluctant to dive taking a long while plus she submerges tail first even though theire is a lot of blue foam in her


(http://s13.postimage.org/5e97mnzyr/DSCF2820.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5e97mnzyr/)


(http://s17.postimage.org/3okwztjq3/DSCF2819.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3okwztjq3/)
 
Video will be on youtube soon

Regards Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on May 08, 2012, 03:01:50 PM
She looks really good mate...really good.



Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on May 08, 2012, 03:29:22 PM
Thanks Rich been a bit of a slog with this one but getting there I even let the wife have a play with the Akula I was that pleased with the Vanguard  O0 {-)

Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on May 08, 2012, 04:19:06 PM
I agree- looks too high at the bow
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on May 08, 2012, 04:25:51 PM
Thanks Rich been a bit of a slog with this one but getting there I even let the wife have a play with the Akula I was that pleased with the Vanguard  O0 {-)

Mark.

Wow...is that what they call true love?   ;D


Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on May 08, 2012, 06:29:04 PM
Yup it must be Rich ha ha

as promised the video http://youtu.be/dmTMP91hi20

also she has a bit more lead in her now ready for a retest on Sunday

Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: U-33 on May 08, 2012, 06:53:01 PM
Very, very nice mate, looks just like a boat heading off on a patrol....very realistic. Was that maximum rudder? Bit tight getting round in that pool...



Rich
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on May 08, 2012, 07:35:39 PM
Turning should improve a lot once submerged, probably best to run it decks awash when on the surface in a small pool- get some of that upper rudder earning its keep.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on May 09, 2012, 09:27:02 AM
Rudder was never deflected to full except for emergancy avoidance of the wall got a secret weapon on the sub that is assisting with the steering she turns quite well now and will turn compleately in about 10ft  realy should have done some video of her zig-zaging down the length of the pond was quite immpresive for a long boat. would put a pic up of my secret weapon but just like the pump jet drive its TOP SECRET  O0 O0 ;D and it needs a bit more work to to optomize and improve the look


Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: thegrimreaper on May 24, 2012, 02:40:33 PM
Windy day at New Brighton when this was taken plus I think the boat was slightly out of balance was a good test for my new video camera though

http://youtu.be/veCxiF8Vrdc

hope you like

    Mark.
Title: Re: OTW Vanguard help
Post by: Subculture on May 24, 2012, 03:56:50 PM
Good stuff- heels over a lot though when the wind catches it.

You could try adding more foam and lead in the keel to increase stability.

Another thing that might work is to try a trick passed onto me By Ron Perrott. Use hollow tanks with as small hole at the top, and a couple of larger holes at the bottom. These should be fitted above the waterline, and they act as bouyancy chambers and help stability by providing a righting moment without incurring a big weight penalty. Because the flood holes are small the tanks take time to flood.

If you want a practical example of this, get an old plastic milk bottle, drill a small hole in the top, say 3mm, and a couple of larger holes in the bottom, try pushing it under water, and you'll see it bobs straight back up again, but place a weight on it, and you'll see it slowly fills and sinks.