Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: OapPETE on November 09, 2011, 09:40:18 pm
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I am building a 46 inch model based on the moonraker do to thickness of fiber glass ( 4 /5 mm) thick it is quite heavy I would like to fit electric motor and was recommened to give Action Electronic`s from a member awile ago I rang him today but he think I need brushless motor to give it adequate power and he recommened I asked again on this forum he said a member called Nick75 is well up on brushless motors so Nick if you pick this up or anyone else on the forum I would be thankfull for any advice. Peter
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46 inch eh big boat that, especially for a fast one. Ill help a bit but first we got to decide how many props you want and what kind of budget your working too?
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Hi Mad Mike
I am open to your suggestions I was going to use a 40 HP IC engine when I started to build it 30 plus years ago but then left it and now have decided I would prefer to go for electric I have one prop shaft fitted at the moment but could remove it if needed to, As for cost hit me with your suggestions and approx cost I always have expensive ideas Peter.
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My most expensive idea was definitely the wife and Kids O0
Seriously though I'm interested in watching your topic but I don't have alot of experience - so any clear explanations will be read with much appreciation :-))
Regards Dave
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what size prop you got on it?
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No prop fitted just the shaft I think it would take 55 or 60mm not sure will check tomorrow as it is in the loft where I do the building I think it is a 4mm
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Hi Pete, Dave from ACTion will help you a lot & though he is a business he does not play games with your money,he also does nice wiring diagrams if you ask him nicely.LOL. MadMike is a very helpful guy & so is F1. With this kind of help & other members of the forum also, you will not go wrong. I must say I am totally clueless when it comes to the fast stuff, tugs are my speed, just thought I would throw in a little bit of reassurance for good measure. Mick B.
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well to power a boat of this size youl need to put a bit of money in it. it will be in excess of 100 pound at least. me perisonally am a budget builder so here was i would use. Other people will disagree:
motor
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RCS-Model-C5055-700-KV-Outrunner-Brushless-Motor-OM190-/270642153758?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3f0387891e
brushless esc:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAKING-120A-Water-Cool-Ship-Brushless-Motor-ESC-SL168-/270646728447?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3f03cd56ff
4s lipo:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turnigy-nano-tech-5000-mah-4S-25-50C-Lipo-Pack-/260877760875?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3cbd86b96b
if you go lipo youl need a balance charger, these prices vary depending on quality but expect to pay around the 20 pound mark. if you get this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5548__IMAX_B6_Charger_Discharger_1_6_Cells_GENUINE_.html
you will need a wall acdc adapter. there is another one on the same site with the adapter built it if you want to spend a bit more:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6478__IMAX_B6_AC_Charger_Discharger_1_6_Cells_GENUINE_.html
anyway thats what i would do. If you dont want to go down the lipo route it is possible to use nimh or even a lead acid battery but they might add weight.
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there is another way and instead of using a 4s lipo use a pair or 2s lipos of the same type and make. If you then decide to up the speed you just add an extra one in.
for example 2 of these and then 1 more to make a total of 6s. that would probably make your boat stupidly fast lol
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17252__Turnigy_nano_tech_5000mah_2S_35_70C_Lipo_Pack.html
with these smaller batteries you can use these smaller cheaper chargers. youl need a 12v 1amp adapter for it though:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turnigy-2-3cell-lipo-Balancer-Charger-same-day-post-UK-/130543016626?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item1e64f85ab2
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Hi Mad Mike tried to send reply and 3 photo`s but have got to reduce size so it failed to send will try again thanks for info Peter.
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Still having problem`s posting trying to send 3 photo`s
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cant understand it how are you uploading the pictures?
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Click on Additional Options click attach -- browse, double click on photo it attach photo number then add more attachments , browse and so on till I have 3 numbers when I click send
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It come up internet explorer cannot desplay the web page
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Mick B I spoke to Action he said I would need brushless motor and he recommended I asked on forum for help as he did not do brushless thanks for reply Peter
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no dont do that. click add image to post. its under the smileys when you reply
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pic. this was just a test its nothing relevant
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(http://s10.postimage.org/ra2zci93p/668.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ra2zci93p/)
(http://s8.postimage.org/fjjzy1rzl/669.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fjjzy1rzl/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/7aq1j8auz/670.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7aq1j8auz/)
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very nice. whats it like working in the attic? i might be shoved up there out of the way.
what do you think to that list i gave you too?
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There is plenty of room up there it is like another room just a bit restricted with height at back of worktop do to slope of roof but is better than out in the garage in the winter.
It sounds confuseing but with help I think I will go for one or the other
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Don'y know much about brushless, however Dave (Action) does a brushed 900 motor which on 24 V (and his big speed controller) would make your boat fly, and you would get a run time (at full chat as it were) of over 1/2 hour (I know because I have the set up in a straight runner, and Stavros stuck one in a 46 in perkasa) scary stuff
Hope it helps a little
:-))
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pete i found this vid of a 49in perkasa with a 900 motor on 24v. if you went this route it would be a lot cheaper than brushless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp3RNTVk1z4
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Mike
You should put the same in that nice narrowboat hull %% %%
Ned
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lol i was just posting a pick using the "additional options" button as ive not done it that way yet. it was just a test to see if it works, that narrow boat hull is just a pick of the net. thought about making one in the future :o
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Hi all i see we are back on the worlds fastest barge ,go on who will be the first to do it and a vid for all to see .Still on a serious note i watched the vid and have to say i was well impressed i may have a change of mind as to how to power my own 40in hull brushed my be the river to go down and save a few quid in the process i will watch this thread with interested ps Hi Mike .
Regards Adrian
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hi %%
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Hi all i see we are back on the worlds fastest barge ,go on who will be the first to do it and a vid for all to see .Still on a serious note i watched the vid and have to say i was well impressed i may have a change of mind as to how to power my own 40in hull brushed my be the river to go down and save a few quid in the process i will watch this thread with interested ps Hi Mike .
Regards Adrian
you know ive just been looking threw hk and im not sure if brushed is the cheaper option :o
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I swear I posted something yesterday?
Anyway I asked what prop size, how fast do you want it to go and whether you have a preference for battery type and voltage.
Nick
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Hi Nick I am new to all the latest electric and am pleased to have all your advice the video from Mike looks good I would be happy if my 46inch go like that the largest prop I can fit is 55mm unless I move the shaft which I would perfir to leave
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Hi Nick I am open to any help from members with far more experience than me but I don`t want to throw money at it. (centre of shaft to bottom of hull is 30mm)
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if you dont want to use lipo use nimh batteries
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Ok , I reckon for a brush-less set-up a 800 Kv 36 mm motor on 4 cell Lipo or 12 cell NiMh, run a 45-50 mm prop or a 1000 Kv motor on 3 cell Lipo or 10 cell Nimh. look for numbers like 36-35 or similar with the Kv I specified.
I just tried a 500 Kv 42mm motor driving a 55 mm 3 blade cleaver on 6 cell and the power was incredible, but the torque was rolling the boat over as I was holding it %%
Nick
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would that 5055 been too big then? how much over can the prop diameter be to the motor diameter? i made a match in diameters it usually works for inrunners and brushed motors.
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using what nick has suggested you can get both the motor and speed controller for £39 inc pnp from here:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18232__Turnigy_D3542_6_1000KV_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7360__Turnigy_Marine_60A_Brushless_Boat_ESC.html
theres some 3s lipos here, depends what kind of money you want to spend:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=378&LiPoConfig=3
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Hi Mike thanks for yours and Nicks help this is a cheaper way I am a bit confused on battery's Nick said look for 3s with 36-35 and Kv1 specified but I could not find that spec on your list of battery's also which battery charger will I need and any other things I need to order at the same time to save on postage costs as I have no stock left over from other models regards Peter.
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using what nick has suggested you can get both the motor and speed controller for £39 inc pnp from here:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18232__Turnigy_D3542_6_1000KV_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7360__Turnigy_Marine_60A_Brushless_Boat_ESC.html
ok the the 36-35 and the 1000kv is the type of motor to go for. 3635 is the diameter and lenght in millimeters of the motor althought im not sure if nick has written it like that to give a round about size of the diameter.
The kv is revolutions per volt. usually the lower the kv the higher torque the motor but the slower it runs.
1 lithium polymer cell or lipo is 3.7v. If you were to buy a pack with 2 cells in it it would be called a 2s battery, if it had 3 cells in it it would a 3s battery and so on. dont know why they call the cells S.
a 3s lipo battery would there for be 3 cells of 3.7v totalling to 11.1v
if you then take the 11.1v and multiply it by the KV of the motor in this case 1000KV then it would give you 11,100 rpm at the motor spindle.
lithium polymer batteries have pro and cons like all batteries, for startes they need a balance charger. balance charger charge the cells individually this stop them from over charging as a overcharged lipo explodes. like this lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vYn2lbBh0Q&feature=related
So a balance charger is vital!!
they also cannot be discharged below 3v as it damaged them, so an LVC or low voltage cut off stops this. It shuts down the forward motion of the boat for a few seconds then allows for a slow recovery back to the bank.
if you like you can save all this hassle of lipo batterues and get a 12v nimh battery pack. you can charge these will a normal charger and you can run them flat, but they dont make your boat as fast as a lipo can. Nimh is also cheaper, but there heavier. depends on what you want to spend on batteries.
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Thanks Mike I have decided to go for
Motor 3542/6 1000Kv
Turnigy marine 60a TR-M-60A
Battery SKU N6000.35.25
Charger B6AC the one you recommended the first time above
Would you be kind enough to confirm these are all suitable and one battery is enough will I need motor mount bracket or any fittings
Once again thanks for all your Help also Nicks
Be offline tonight, off out and tommow again
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for the battey do you mean the top one?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11939__Turnigy_nano_tech_6000mah_3S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack.html
also im not sure which balance charger you have selected. one of them needs an 12 acdc adapter the other has one built in. if you get that charger though it will cater you for all types of batteries just about.
you will need a coupling for the motor to propshaft. you will also need a motor mount but these can be constructed if you have the know how, remeber though that this motor is an outrunner which means the case revolves around armature
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Hi Mike
Yes it is the top one on that web site
The charger is the dearer one of the two you recommended on your first web list above
As for the motor mount I may not have metal to suit and am happy to buy one if one is available.
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motor mounts are available anywhere on the net, ebay, hobbyking, MMB, prestwich model boats
just to name a few. I dont know what to say for mounts as its one of those things you need to fettle about with first before you decide how you going to mount it.
heres one at prestwich. If you check out the very bottom of the list theres a water cooled motor mount for your type of motor.
http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/fastelectrics.htm
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Thanks is the motor water cooled that I am buying like a I C engine
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no the motor it self isnt water cooled because it has no outer cooling jacket. it cant cos the case revolves so you have to cool the motor mount. the esc is also water cooled but if your motor and esc doesnt get too hot then dont worry about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xTHZPwAKc&feature=related
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I have just enlarged the motor mount and seen how it cools sorry to ask so many questions
signing off now got to be up early THANKS Peter
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dont worry about asking questions i like to help O0
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I'm glad when someone asks questions and I'm even gladder when someone else answers them O0 O0
I get the benifit of reading both without lifting a finger. Conservation of energy is one thing I can do.
I especially love daft questions because they are the ones that I always have too %%
Regards Dave
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I dont think that motor will be enough to push that boat very fast,you would be better off with 6 s lipos and one of these in my opinion.
Mart
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11980__Turnigy_T600_Brushless_Outrunner_for_600_Heli_1400kv_.html
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no the motor it self isnt water cooled because it has no outer cooling jacket. it cant cos the case revolves so you have to cool the motor mount. the esc is also water cooled but if your motor and esc doesnt get too hot then dont worry about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xTHZPwAKc&feature=related
On an out runner you need to cool the front mout as the heat wells up at the front, so if you want to get power water cool it
Peter
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Thanks I will definitely cool it and the esc if that requires cooling as well as for size of motor I have to give it more thought I don't wish the boat to take off just have a reasonable speed and get on a plane possibly half way down the boat
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If I went for the T600 Turnigy motor and a 6000mah 6s 25-50 battery the motor has a max 115amps do I need a higher amp esc if so is it better to buy the same make as the motor your help would be helpfull thanks Peter.
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The motor martno1fan has selected is suited to a fe not a scale planing cruiser, if you want to go 30+ mph fair enough but remember that 30000 rpm is surface drive speed, a sub surface prop has much lower rpm requirements
Nick
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Ill be using the 190-200 amp esc,s from hobbyking on my large twin build,some people will say there no good but some say theyre good for the money.If you want something a little more reliable then try this one theyre pretty bulletproof from what im told.The outrunner shouldnt need water cooling but it wont hurt to use a watercooeld mount,not sure how much it will actually cool it mind.
Mart
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAKING-Electronic-Speed-Controller-180A-ESC-Boat-/180427869753?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item2a0256ce39
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Thanks Nick do you feel my first choose from Mike will be OK as I said I don`t need it to fly.
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i was going to say something but my suggestions have been shot down a lot lately. For instance when i first asked you what size propeller you had you said 55-60mm. When i select a motor i allways oversize and that way the motor is hardly working keeping amps down to near no load current. So for my first suggestion i picked the 5055 motor. Then nick said you need a 36 motor, then mart said you needed a t600. people have different ways of getting the same result. Im not speaking for nick but i think that the motor chosen that nick suggested would be about right, but i would say that wouldnt I :-))
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Always good to throw out suggestions, the motor and ESC is fine,
Just as another example I have a approx 36" Skiboat hull, I run a 1250 Kv motor on 3 cell and 40 mm Raboesch 2 blade prop the boat draws 40-45 amps flat stick. I tried a 4 cell in it once, the boat got up to ridiculous speed, did a dance on the chines so violently it flipped the 5000 mAH 4 cell lipo and speed controller clean out of the boat :embarrassed: that was was a 60 amp controller, a 40 amp or more with the 1000 Kv motor will be fine. a 45 -50 mm prop will be about the right size. This will give you as good if not better performance as shown in Stavros' Perkasa video :-))
Funny thing about brush-less is the motor at scale boat speeds is about half the size of what would be needed in a brushed size. For a low RPM 540/555 a 22 mm(stator size) 1000 Kv has the same power.
Say what you have to say , Its all good, I ain't an expert by any means ;)
Nick
Video's of the skiboat
http://www.youtube.com/user/Nick75au1#p/u/11/lYJtODg_hQk
http://www.youtube.com/user/Nick75au1#p/u/6/qatdSCDpzZI
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Funny thing about brush-less is the motor at scale boat speeds is about half the size of what would be needed in a brushed size. For a low RPM 540/555 a 22 mm(stator size) 1000 Kv has the same power.
Say what you have to say , Its all good, I ain't an expert by any means ;)
Nick
when you mean 22mm stator do you mean the diameter around the can or around the armature?
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On an out-runner, the bit the windings are on (stator , stationary part of motor) the motor I'm referencing to is called a 22-20, 22mm diameter 20 mm long, the overall diameter is about 27 mm. I use this in my springer and has no problem driving a 40 mm prop on 6 volts, of which a 550-5 is an excellent match in brushed motors.
Cheers
Nick
P.S on an in-runner, the stator is the can(doesn't rotate)
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but the numbers at beginning are the size of the can of both type right? ive been allways refering like that cos thats how the suppliers are selling them.
for instance this 3542 turnigy outrunner, the drawing near the bottom also says that the outer can diameter is 35 and the lenght of the can is 42.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18231__Turnigy_D3542_5_1250KV_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html
does it depend on the supplier how they class there outrunner sizes? like in your case going by the stator 22-20 would be a largeish motor but in say the hobbyking way where they go by the can thats a small one.
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Yep confusing, it still looks tiny compared to a 500 series motor ;) I generally go by the Turnigy numbering as that is where most of my motors come from, just happens that the KA22-20 mm is one of the first brush-less I brought.
http://www.kd-motor.com/a22.htm
Some of the Turnigy have a AXI equivalent, Axi which I'm fairly sure use stator sizes as well, the motor in your link is what's in the Ski-boat, and has a a stator size of 28 mm (IIRC)
Nick
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ah i see. i have seen references to brushless motors like that on other suppliers and when it came to matching the model numbers to the motor dimensions it didnt match.
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Hi, Mike and Nick I have tried to take in all your advice you say Mike you were confused so am I but I am going for the Turnigy 1000cv - 60 amp ESC - 6000-3s battery and the
6478 I Max B6AC charger the more expensive one you said it would cover most battery's as I hope to model for a few years,I assume the can supply me a coupling to fit 4mm to
5mm I am sure my shaft is 4mm, Am I right to order a 6000 battery pack my thought is I will get a longer running time than with a say 5000-3s or 4500-3s am I correct ? or
wasting money
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yeah the 6000 is the mah and the higher the number the longer that battery lasts. that charger will charge all types of battery. If you know what your doing you can use this charger your charge your battery at the lake side. I dont know much bout that though so cant tell you anymore.
Btw on the battery discription in a blue banner it says :
Turnigy nano-tech 6000mah 3S 25~50C Lipo Pack
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11939__Turnigy_nano_tech_6000mah_3S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack.html
Turnigy the make of the battery
nanotech is the model of the battery
6000 is the mah
25c is the draw rate. you take the 25c and multiply by the 6000mah. this gives you 150000ma or 150Amps!
the 50c is the max spike draw rate. this is worked out the same way.
when picking a battery you look at the maxium required for your esc and motor. you then selec what mah you would like then select what C rating you need it to be able to go to.
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Thanks Mike I will order these tomorrow night now off to kip. Thanks once again for both you and Nick also the advice from other members I am sure I will be asking you all for more help before long Regards.Peter