Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Full Scale Ships => Topic started by: Bryan Young on November 24, 2011, 03:25:56 pm
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Old Merchant Ships.
I’m hoping to begin a new topic here.
Many years ago I was given a bagful of photos of old ships. No details provided.
Over the years I’ve dipped into them and got a couple of basics…Ships name, date of birth and parentage ….and that’s about it. Then I began classifying them by Company. So I begin with “A” for “Anchor Line” etc.etc.
The main reason for all this is to recall how beautiful some of these British designed and built ships were. Not like today when all the ships look basically the same and haven’t a curved line between them.
Many of the ships sort of follow a family pattern (Blue Flue is the prime example). So if I can get the site system working, I hope you enjoy what could be a rather lengthy topic. B.Y.
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Hi Bryan. These certainly are beautiful ships, A bit before my time and not really what I'm in to unless it's a ferry :}
However I'll definitely check in because you never know what might turn up.
Ali.
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If you are interested in this subject then check out the paintings of Robert Lloyd. http://www.robertlloyd.co.uk/gallery.html
Although he also paints modern vessels, he has published two quite stunning books:
The British Merchant Navy - Images and Experiences http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/the-british-merchant-navy-images-and-experiences-paintings-by-robert-lloyd.html
The World's Merchant Ships - Images and Impressions http://shipsinfocus.com/view_book.php?ref=F480
Colin
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If you are interested in this subject then check out the paintings of Robert Lloyd. http://www.robertlloyd.co.uk/gallery.html
Although he also paints modern vessels, he has published two quite stunning books:
The British Merchant Navy - Images and Experiences http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/the-british-merchant-navy-images-and-experiences-paintings-by-robert-lloyd.html
The World's Merchant Ships - Images and Impressions http://shipsinfocus.com/view_book.php?ref=F480
Colin
Thanks Colin. I haven't a clue where and by whom these photos came, but I hope viewers find them interesting anyway.
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Bank Line and Blue Funnel (Ocean Steam).
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The Aerial ones would appear to be by SkyFotos (Now Photo Flite) see image of Antilochus here: http://www.fotoflite.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=20
Colin
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The Aerial ones would appear to be by SkyFotos (Now Photo Flite) see image of Antilochus here: http://www.fotoflite.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=20
Colin
Colin, are you telling me that I may be inadvertently contravening the Copyright Law? If that's so, then I'll pull the topic. Bryan.
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Brian,
They are clearly commercial photos, no doubt purchased legitimately so it's a grey area. I suppose it depends whether they are still being offered for commercial sale as the one I have mentioned is. However you are not reproducing them at high resolution and not seeking to make money from them quite apart from the fact that it is unlikely anyone will notice. The worst that is likely to happen is that Martin could be asked to remove them so I wouldn't worry too much.
Colin
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Brian,
They are clearly commercial photos, no doubt purchased legitimately so it's a grey area. I suppose it depends whether they are still being offered for commercial sale as the one I have mentioned is. However you are not reproducing them at high resolution and not seeking to make money from them quite apart from the fact that it is unlikely anyone will notice. The worst that is likely to happen is that Martin could be asked to remove them so I wouldn't worry too much.
Colin
Wow! That's a relief.
It did strike me as odd that some photos over 100 years old....but the majority being over 50 yrs old, would still be subject to copyright law. However....my main reason for posting these pictures is to illustrate to people who perhaps have never known what a beautiful object an old ship could be. Thanks. BY
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I may as well continue until there's a heavy knock on my door.
British India. What a wealth of ships they had.
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They did build some beautiful ships in the post WW2 period. Modern but graceful with it and a delight to the eye. These days I don't think there is a curved plate anywhere.
Colin
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They did build some beautiful ships in the post WW2 period. Modern but graceful with it and a delight to the eye.
I agree wholeheartedly, Colin, beautiful ships indeed. Thanks for posting the photos, Bryan.
Peter.
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More images the merrier Bryan :-))
I was only sayiing earlier today that modellers as a group must hold one of the largest archives of subject knowledge in the world; unless it is shared an individuals part is eventually lost.
Regards Dave (still looking for an image of the Foundation Franklin when she was The Gustavo Ipland {:-{)
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Caledonia Star. Built for the Ministry of War Transport, although she doesn’t look like any of the “standardised” designs of the time. 6 hatches..not all that common, but the 2 centre ones look unusual being at different deck levels.
Geelong Star. Instantly recognizable as an ex-Lamport and Holt vessel. They had a fair number of strange looking ships. The combined Bridge and Funnel still looks odd. South American Saint Line also used this idea, but were more streamlined.
Brasil Star. Sister ship of the Uruguay Star. Also carried 60 passengers, of which I was one when going to Brazil to join c/s “Norseman” in 1961/2.
Auckland Star. A real “heavyweight” on deck. 7 hatches, many with 4 derricks per hatch…each having its own winch. The deck crew and engineers would certainly be kept busy on this one.
A couple of tales about Blue Star. After one of their ships had a major collision (with an island) the owners (the Vestey family) blamed the loss on the use of radar. It took many years before they began fitting radars again.
Also, for many years the officers cabins didn’t have washbasins on the grounds that the officers would just use them as urinals.
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Clan Line.
A huge outfit with many subsidiary companies under the Cayzer Irvine banner, the ships swapping around a fair amount. It was a purely personal thing, but I always thought Clan Line to be in the 2nd division of the major companies. There always seemed to be something slightly “scruffy” about the ships when comparing them with,say, Blue Funnel.
Clan Cameron. Note the large plates (instead of pillars) at the rear end of the bridge. I can only assume that these were to prevent any cargo being swung into an area that may have people around. Also, what appears to be a cowl vent on top of the middle mast…never saw one there before!.
Clan Maclay. As a “deckie” I don’t think I’d be enthusiastic about those open ladders going up to the top of the “goalposts”!
Clan Shaw. This class of ship must have been a bit of a money spinner for the Greenock yard. Quite a few companies had them..or variations of them.
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Cunard and Donaldsons.
Both these outfits were mainly N.Atlantic traders. Donaldsons were apparently a well respected company among seafarers, but didn’t last the distance.
Cunard on the other hand are best known for their passenger liners. Unfortunately they were also pretty well known for their habit of “getting rid of” almost entire crews when a liner was taken out of service/scrapped. Non-seafarers may not be aware that Cunard also had a pretty comprehensive fleet of cargo ships. Only 2 of which I show here. And ploughing the N.Atlantic must have been both wearisome and boring. I preferred going to warmer climes.
Alsatia….originally built for the “Silver Line”. A pretty well known company that must have had some grandiose ideas when they built this thing!
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Bryan, I am really enjoying your gallery of beautiful ships. I was lucky enough to be in the Merchant Navy during the 60's and always loved the sight of the many British ships to be seen in all the ports around the world proudly flying the "Red Duster" - great days indeed.
Chris
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Superb photo's, I particularly like Blue Funnel 'Phemius' but they all have style and charter. I can't believe the age of some, they seem timeless to me !!
Roger
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On to the “Es”.
Starting with Elder Dempster. Yet another major company that’s bit the dust.
Running mainly out of Liverpool, their area of trade was Africa. Usually the West coast.
A very highly regarded company within the nautical fraternity. I nearly joined them as a cadet….but didn’t because I didn’t really want to spend a lifetime going up African creeks into the boondocks of Africa. Instead, I joined the Ben Line….and spent 4 years going up and down creeks into the boondocks of the Far East. Ah, well. Can’t win them all.
Eds had 2 well known passenger ships….”Aureol” and “Apapa”….but I’m concentrating on the cargo ships in this thread.
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Some great photos from the days we had a Merchant Navy ! Thanks Bryan.
That anecdote about the lack of washbasins in Blue Star is not original though, when I joined the "Thistledowne" in 1962 she also was lacking a basin in the cabin - everything else, mirror, shelf etc was there, but no basin - I was told the exact same story except it was attributed to the Alan Black Chairman. Unless of course they may have been drinking buddies !
Mike
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Some great photos from the days we had a Merchant Navy ! Thanks Bryan.
That anecdote about the lack of washbasins in Blue Star is not original though, when I joined the "Thistledowne" in 1962 she also was lacking a basin in the cabin - everything else, mirror, shelf etc was there, but no basin - I was told the exact same story except it was attributed to the Alan Black Chairman. Unless of course they may have been drinking buddies !
Mike
Mike, as I expect that there was much truth in the uses to which said basin could be put I expect more than 2 companies followed suit! May as well refuse to fit showers for the same reason......... Bryan.
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Now we come to “Ellermans”.
It really is difficult to understand how such a huge shipping company could just more or less disappear overnight. Ellermans weren’t just one entity. There were all sorts of Ellermans. All under the same funnel colour and rather homogenous. Some had grey hulls, some white, some green. But the same funnel.
You would see an Ellemans ship in just about any port in the world during the mid 1950s to the late 60s (even 70s I suppose). Not often in the Orient though. Blue Flue, Ben Line, P&O and BI kind of had that market sewn up. But Ellemans weren’t a “Tramp” outfit. They were Cargo Liners, which meant that the various elements of Ellermans traded on specific routes (albeit with the odd excursion..like everybody else did). So they had a fleet that traded to the Med, another to NZ and Aussieland, a big run to South Africa and so on. Some of their fleets were of quite small ships (4000 tons or so) but the long haul stuff equated with the ships of Blue Star and so on.
One class of their ships has always struck me as being one (actually 4 of them) of the most beautiful and purposeful looking merchant ships of all time. I refer to the City of York class…a pic of her eventually.
But let’s look at a random selection of what they had to offer.
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Perish the thought ! Next thing you will suggest is that some people weed in the swimming pool :embarrassed: Who, moi ?? %)
Mike
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Perish the thought ! Next thing you will suggest is that some people weed in the swimming pool :embarrassed: Who, moi ?? %)
Mike
Pool? Do you mean the saggy canvas bag thing that used to be rigged on deck with a fire hose stuck into it?
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"Brasil Star. Sister ship of the Uruguay Star. Also carried 60 passengers, of which I was one when going to Brazil to join c/s “Norseman” in 1961/2."
Might have known! Only Cable & Wireless would travel by passenger liner to join ship. The rest of us worked our passage on another ship of the Company. %)
C & W always had problems unmooring; they so rarely left their berths the winches were rusted solid. :kiss:
Regards,
Barry M
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Sorry Barry. With only half a dozen ships that were based thousands of miles apart, the "working your passage" thing was a non-starter. Also, we were joining a ship for a 2 year stint. Air travel in the early 60s was not the "norm". Then again, most of C&W ships were not "tied up to a quay"....they had their own mooring buoy. So wrong on all counts you jealous Pictish person.
However....we did once leave our buoy in Rio after a few months layover....and the buoy sank when we let go the ropes. Next time you cast aspertions, sanctions will be applied. Mild regards. Bryan.
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Just a little bit of tidying up now, just to get the alphabetical sequence back on track.
First, a couple of Ellermans I forgot about.
The “City of Benares” seems to be one of the few Passenger-Cargo liners that Ellerman owned. Although many “normal” cargo liners could carry up to 12 passengers, this one could carry 219….although still a cargo ship. Quite handsome.
“Grecian”, as the name implies was one of the smaller ones running into the Med.
It’s easy to forget the name “Furness-Withy”. Another well known concern that disappeared without trace in the 1970s(?). A point to notice about the “Pacific Unity” is the length of her derricks. I pondered over this until I remembered the tidal range on the Eastern seaboard of Canada. With a range of 40ft or more, cargo work would have to stop at low tide (with “normal” derricks). I guess these lengthy poles could maybe keep working. Just a thought.
“Nottingham”. Federal Steam Navigation Company. This company was joined at the hip with the “New Zealand Shipping Company”. (more on them later). The ships had their own livery, but in many cases were interchangeable…as were the personell. These were big beasts, always immaculate. Most of them were refrigerated ships as the main trade to “back home” was meat (mainly sheep of one sort or another). A bit like Blue Star that did the same thing from Argentina, but with beef. If I remember correctly, both outfits came under the P&O umbrella.
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There is just no contest in style when you compare these with the modern "boxes of the sea"
Very much enjoying this thread Bryan.
Geoff
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Sorry Barry. With only half a dozen ships that were based thousands of miles apart, the "working your passage" thing was a non-starter. Also, we were joining a ship for a 2 year stint. Air travel in the early 60s was not the "norm". Then again, most of C&W ships were not "tied up to a quay"....they had their own mooring buoy. So wrong on all counts you jealous Pictish person.
However....we did once leave our buoy in Rio after a few months layover....and the buoy sank when we let go the ropes. Next time you cast aspertions, sanctions will be applied. Mild regards. Bryan.
Is it true that C&W once applied to the Admiralty for their officers to be allowed to wear swords on board? Apparently the Admiralty gave their consent as long as the blades did not exceed six inches. %) %)
Sanctified asparagus? - Wossat? :P :kiss:
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Barry, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was true. Although the company wouldn't have been called Cable and Wireless then.
C&W was basically a government owned amalgam of "Eastern Telegraph", "Western Telegraph" and others somewhere in the middle. Being based in places akin to "the white mans grave"...then possibly "yes" to your query.
However, with the demise of sword wearing, tradition demanded a substitute. So a rather large codpiece was used instead...just to intimidate the locals, you understand. Now shut up and let me conshentrait.
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Glen and Shire Line.
Glen Line and Blue Funnel were part of Alfred Holts “Ocean Steam Co.” for as long as I can remember. In fact, if it wasn’t for the fact that “Blue Flue” had blue funnels (obviously) and Glen Line had red you couldn’t tell them apart. A bit like Federal and NZS. But there was a reason for this.
When I first “went to sea” the Dutch had a massive presence in the then “East Indies” (now Indonesia)….and british companies were “discouraged” from joining that trade. When Holts took over the Glen Line that did have a route into the East Indies the Glens sort of called Rotterdam their “home port”…the Dutch connection. Spices and all that. Eventually things eased off and even “upstarts” like the Ben Line were trading in and out of Indonesian ports ( as I have good cause to remember).
I still think that a “Bluey” with a red funnel didn’t look “quite right” somehow.
Ocean Steam are still going but I believe they’ve amalgamated with some other mainland European companies and are known as “Barber Blue Sea” or something. Correct me if I’m wrong…my historical memories fade with each passing day.
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There is just no contest in style when you compare these with the modern "boxes of the sea"
Very much enjoying this thread Bryan.
Geoff
Bryan,
I can only agree 100% with the comments by pugwash. It is a pleasure to see these images.
Tony.
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Great to see these old ships , didnt some of the Ben boats get sold to the Kuwait ,? i woner because they ,,Ben boats were a very nice job and i had a fly out to gulf to sail ex ben back in kuwait colours ,came back to u k as the Al Salamiah just wondered what Ben she was ,accomodation was first class all officers were doubles and showered ,,for their age they really were well looked after . the Kuwait shipping looked after the crowd too .
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New Zealand Shipping Company.
What a hodge-podge this company became. Among other companies in the P&O conglomerate running to NZ and Aussie was the “Union Steamship Co. of NZ”.
I mentioned about the Federal and NZS ships being sort of interchangeable. Usually the NZS ships were distinguished by having a yellow funnel and the “Federals” had a red funnel with a black top and a design on the red. Otherwise indistinguishable…except that in the cases where the names didn’t match the funnels! The NZS ships having Maori names and the Federals named after English counties. Both good companies to work for by all accounts.
NZS also had some ships that were almost full size passenger ships, although still “cargo liners”. I seem to recall the English cricket Test Teams used to travel on the NZS ships. I’m afraid my selection of only 3 ships doesn’t do them justice.
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Pool? Do you mean the saggy canvas bag thing that used to be rigged on deck with a fire hose stuck into it?
That's the one ! If nothing else you used to get some pretty interesting tidal waves belting up and down - helped stir everything up, so to speak %)
Mike
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P & O. Probably the most extensive range of companies under one controlling outfit that I know of. Although very few of the umbrella companies are still in shipping.
Everyone is sort of familiar with P&O as a liner and cruise company, but less well known is the huge fleet of cargo ships they also operated. When the ships were operating under the P&O banner they were quite distinctive, having a shiny black funnel and pale brown superstructure which to my jaundiced eye always made them look a bit “downmarket”. This looked even worse when they changed the funnels to yellow and painted a rather crude “P & O” logo on them…..only to look even cheaper when they started naming the ships “Pando Something”.
Not wishing to some of you “how to suck eggs”…..but the very name “P&O” means “Peninsular and Orient” ( not “PANDO”). The “Peninsular” bit meaning the Iberian peninsular…Spain and Portugal, where they first began trading. Some of the companies they swapped ships around to include:- British India”, Federal Line. NZS, Asiatic Steam, Hain-Nourse, Bullard and King….plus many internal divisions within P&O.
Before P&O started collecting companies and swapping the ships around like Premier League football players, their cargo ships had a sort of family resemblance in the way that Holts ships did. Notwithstanding the odd choice of “collier brown” for their superstructures they also resembled updated versions of the WW2 “Ocean” and “Fort” class ships. Not really very pretty. Distinctive, but not “pretty”.
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I never realised they were named after the Iberian Peninsular - always assumed with the Orient bit it must be the Malay peninsular.
You are a font of information Bryan - some of it useful.
Geoff
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I never realised they were named after the Iberian Peninsular - always assumed with the Orient bit it must be the Malay peninsular.
You are a font of information Bryan - some of it useful.
Geoff
"Some of it useful"? I never thought I'd be damned with faint praise by you Geoff. Tut tut.
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The P&O flag is quartered white, red, yellow and blue. The white and blue sectors refer to the Portuguese flag as it was in the 19th century. The red and yellow sectors reflect the Spanish colours and thus, all together, they represent the Iberian peninsula.
Remember that for the pub quiz.
Barry M
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Last 4 of the P&O stuff:-
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The P&O flag is quartered white, red, yellow and blue. The white and blue sectors refer to the Portuguese flag as it was in the 19th century. The red and yellow sectors reflect the Spanish colours and thus, all together, they represent the Iberian peninsula.
Remember that for the pub quiz.
Barry M
Bloomin'eck Barry. Just because I revealed the secrets of the codpiece there's no need to rain on my parade.
If you want to post pictures of ancient tankers (not someone you know) then go ahead and keep it clean this time.
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Bryan,
I have no wish to be advised of the details of your codpiece which I suspect is covered by the Official Secrets Act and would, under most circumstances, frighten the horses.
"Keep it clean"? I'm not sure to which you refer; I have always led a blameless life. :P
Regrards,
Barry M
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Palm Line.
For such a fairly large company it’s strange how little known they were outside “the trade”. Their regular run was similar to that of Elder Dempster, the west coast of Africa. Many people thought of them as “tramps”, but they weren’t really.
The 1st photo is interesting…to me at least…as she was built for the Ministry of War Transport in 1947 by “ The Shipbuilding Corporation (Wear Branch)”. I’ve never heard of them before. Perhaps some yards were nationalised at the time?
The second and third photos are pretty representative of what their ships looked like.
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They are some real fine pictures of real fine ships. They are not as obscure as you may imagine. I was at sea between 1961 and 1992 and most of the above ships were well-known to those of us at sea in that era. They are still well-remembered and looked back on with great affection. Often hot & uncomfortable, but it was a great life then. Long stays in port, no satellite communications causing the office to "breath down our necks" all the time. Large crews with a good social life. I sailed in 19 ships during my time at sea, often taking my wife along (free of charge). I much regret the passing of the Merchant Navy, but now I just make models of them. I worked for three of the companies shown above, Cayzer, Irvine (Clan Line), Blue Star Line and Furness Withy as well as Union-Castle, Houlder Brothers, Everards, South Eastern Gas, Silver Line, Bowaters, and St. Helena Line. Modern ships leave me cold - not the slightest interest in them!
Bob
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They are some real fine pictures of real fine ships. They are not as obscure as you may imagine. I was at sea between 1961 and 1992 and most of the above ships were well-known to those of us at sea in that era. They are still well-remembered and looked back on with great affection. Often hot & uncomfortable, but it was a great life then. Long stays in port, no satellite communications causing the office to "breath down our necks" all the time. Large crews with a good social life. I sailed in 19 ships during my time at sea, often taking my wife along (free of charge). I much regret the passing of the Merchant Navy, but now I just make models of them. I worked for three of the companies shown above, Cayzer, Irvine (Clan Line), Blue Star Line and Furness Withy as well as Union-Castle, Houlder Brothers, Everards, South Eastern Gas, Silver Line, Bowaters, and St. Helena Line. Modern ships leave me cold - not the slightest interest in them!
Bob
It's really quite surprising that even ships (and companies) seen decades ago are still instantly recognizable simply from their profiles.
Not now. 'Tis a totally different world now....and I want no part of it. we saw the best. BY.
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Hey Bob
It is truly lovely to look at Bryan's ships. I used to work for The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board (1972ish) and visited all the shipping offices around the city.
There are many guys like you who served on ships with character, many will have photogaphs of the ship's daily life, what a pity these gems are so rarely seen.
Researching the Kalakala (a Ferry) led me to believe that preserving the history of a ship requires knowing something of the people on and about her.
Regards Dave
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Cunard and Donaldsons.
Alsatia….originally built for the “Silver Line”. A pretty well known company that must have had some grandiose ideas when they built this thing!
Hello Bryan
The Silver Line was a shipping company formed in 1908, part of the British Merchant Navy. By the 1930s they were offering round the world passenger/cargo services, with the passenger fare on a freighter of £100. Entirely on foreign service, the ships did not include UK ports of call. Managing owners were the S & J Thompson family. Most of their merchant ships bore the name Silver followed by the name of a tree. The Second World War claimed 11 of their ships. One of them, the Silverfir was sunk by the German battleship Scharnhorst on a voyage from Manchester to New York in 1941. Silver Line switched to tramping around the world in the 1950s, then went through several ownership changes, and by 1985, with the sale of their last ship, was no more.
The Silverplane, a sleek twin funnel vessel of 7,226 gross tons built in 1948, was sold to the Cunard Line in 1951 and renamed Alsatia II, and so was her sister ship Silverbriar, to become Andria I. Their forward funnels were false, containing the chart room and the captain's cabin, looked like miniature Queen Elizabeths, and carried just 12 passengers, the maximum allowed without a regulation onboard doctor. They were sold to the Republic of China and renamed Union Freedom and Union Faith respectively. The latter ship was demolished in a fiery collision with an oil barge outside New Orleans in 1969, with considerable loss of life.
An associated company, Joseph L. Thompson & Sons of Sunderland, was involved in the design of the first Liberty ships that saw service in World War II and beyond.
I served my time as Apprentice D.O. with the Company and then as 3/Officer before moving on. I was told that the Company had the monopoly for liner trades from the East Coast of the States to the Phillipines and East Asia. They had the leases on several piers in San Fransisco and that most of their ships lost in WW2 were lost in the Pacific. At that time the US did not have a viable Merchant Fleet.
After WW2 (in 1949/50) the US Protectionism forced the Company to sell their ships due to the loss of their trade routes and the Company was sold to a Welsh Company who’s name escapes me. They then started tramping, as I did.
So, you see, the Company did not have grandiose ideas when the two twin funnel ships were built, they already had the liner trade for them but sadly lost it soon after
Hope this fills in a gap or two.
Keep the pictures coming Bryan. Great thread.
Cheers
John
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Fot those who are not aware, a point about the passenger limit of 12 before a doctor had to be carried as mentioned above. You could have four times that number of crew and no doctor was considered necessary. What the crew limit was, I do not know but perhaps somebody can supply the number?
In the absence of a doctor, medical tratment of a crew at sea was supplied by the 'Ship's Captains Medical Guide' in the hands of the Mate or Chief Steward, I have heard it said, although I don't know if it is true, that a ship's master could, in an emergency, legally perform any operation except dental work.
Don't have nightmares,
Barry M
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& BarryM asks........"but perhaps somebody can supply the number"
....not sure Barry but lets try :o
Master+3 mates+an RO = 5
Chief Cook+ 2 cooks +2 stewards = 6
Shipwright+ 4 deckies = 5
Chief engineer+4 junior engineers + an electrician = 6
Engineroom...3 donkeymen+ 3 greasers = 6
O0....so 5+6+5+6+6 = 28?????????????????
Would that be a fair call Bryan?????????? ............
With my limited mercantile experience....the RO was not a member of the ships crew.....but a contractor as supplied by Marconi...or Phillips........ :o Derek
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As the shipowner was always testing the rules as to how few people he could get away with, the notion of a maximum crew level never really came into it ! O0
Mike
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Sorry Derek. You are about 50% correct!
When I was a cadet the "standard" crew on a Ben Line ship was 56.
Probably more if a full Chinese or Indian crew was signed on.I think you fall short in the catering and deck rating count.
Old cargo ships needed a lot of manpower on deck.For starters, there would be 3 ratings per watch, with 3 watches =9. You would have one guy on the wheel, one lookout (at night) and the "stand-by man (the "farmer"). When berthing you'd probably find 6 ratings at each end of the ship. So in port you'd have a workforce of around 20 to call on. Cadets/apprentices would be included in that number. Then you'd have a bosun, carpenter, "lampy" and occasionally a deck storekeeper. Only 2 stewards sounds a bit thin. Remember these were the days when the stewards also kept the officers cabins "habitable". In the RFA they doubled up as gun crews! Cargo working wasn't all left to the shoreside stevedores. The deck crew were responsible for removing/replacing the hatchboards and hatch beams. And remember that an open shelterdecker would have 3 layers of "hold", so with (say) 5 hatches working you'd have 15 layers of beams/covers to attend to. Then the deck crew would have to be constantly adjusting the derricks..topping/lowering/swinging and so on. Plus a lot more. So 56 still sounds about right!. Bryan.
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Derek,
My question was not about how big a typical crews was - I sailed with enough of those - but how big it would have to be before the carriage of a doctor was mandatory.
Barry M
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Barry, I thought that question had already been answered.
Any number of crew as far as I know, but a max of 12 paying passengers. The relevant word here being "paying".
A short while ago you alluded to people "working their passage", or company personell going off to servr in furrin parts. These people were classified as "Supernumaries" and as such were not classified as "passengers". Similarly when a seaman from anywhere and from any company was being repatriated with a "DR", "VNC" or injury/sickness. In some cases the first 2 categories would eventually be liable for costs incurred by his original company.
A "DR" in a seafarers Discharge Book means "Decline To Report" and basically brings a seamans career at sea to a grinding halt.
A "VNC" means "Voyage Not Completed". This covers a range of things from jumping ship with deportation to circumstances reasonably beyond the seamans control. A matter for later adjudication.
However. There is nothing in law to prevent a company employing a ships doctor even when not carrying passengers. The RFA is a case in point here, that I'm not going into.
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Ah, now we come to the “Port Line”. Much favoured by our Antipodian friends. Mainly because of their name I suspect.
A really major player in the NZ and Australia trade.
Joined at the hip almost from conception to Cunard (identical funnels) they gave Cunard an opening into routes that were not of their historical persuation..ie the N.Atlantic.
Although most people will believe that their main trade was between the UK and the Antipodes….they had another route. This was called the MANZ run. This was the “Montreal”- “Australia” – “New Zealand” trot. A long haul.
The litany of companies trecking back and forth to Australia and New Zealand must have been an almost “pipe-line” structure. NZS, Federal, Port Line, SS&A (more on them later), Blue Star (now and again) plus all the “tramping” outfits. Aussie and NZ didn’t really have a merchant Marine during these years….although the Union Steamship Co of NZ was pretty active.
But this portion is “Port Line”.
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Last 5 of Port Line:-
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PSNC (Pacific Steam Navigation Company).
This company was first founded in 1838, so it had a lot of history. Their chosen trade was with the west coast of South America. Must have been an arduous run before the Panama Canal opened. I suppose they are known to most people because of the liner “Andes”, but they also operated a fleet of “traditional” cargo liners. Of which “Flamenco” was just one of a class of 5. All built by Greenock Dockyard. Recognize the design? If it wasn’t for the yellow funnel it could easily be a Clan Line ship. As I mentioned earlier, this “standard” design must have been a money spinner for them, and it pre-dated the SD14s that many people thought of as a breakthrough in standardisation. I’m not including the wartime Libertys, Oceans,Forts etc.
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i have on the cards.... a model of the SS Falcon (1927)
The General Steam Navigation Company's cargo vessel 'Falcon' (1927, 1316 GRT) under way on the River Thames in 1954. She was scrapped three years later
i have the Plans and the Hull, just have to find time to build her...
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General Steam really did have some dinky little ships. They had a nice one at Marchwood for years to teach squaddies about loading and discharging ships. I would imagine that your projected model would, if built at 1:48, be about the same size as my "General Havelock" model. Good luck with it. Bryan.
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Fot those who are not aware, a point about the passenger limit of 12 before a doctor had to be carried as mentioned above. You could have four times that number of crew and no doctor was considered necessary. What the crew limit was, I do not know but perhaps somebody can supply the number?
In the absence of a doctor, medical tratment of a crew at sea was supplied by the 'Ship's Captains Medical Guide' in the hands of the Mate or Chief Steward, I have heard it said, although I don't know if it is true, that a ship's master could, in an emergency, legally perform any operation except dental work.
Don't have nightmares,
Barry M
Hello Barry,
I'm not sure that there was a limit to the number of crew members until a Doc was required but I suspect crew were expendable against passengers. In 1959 we has 68 crew, 21 Officers and the rest made up of Indian Sailors and Goanese Stewards. The 2nd Mate was the 'Medical Officer' with keys to the medical locker, which was a double wardrobe size locker in the bulkhead in the Officers cross aleyway. The Fist Mate (Chief Officer) and the Master had to have Ship Captains Medical Certificates which allowed them to perform operations to try to save lives. Just imagine, a ship enroute from Panama to Japan on a great circle route which took the ship so far north to be near the Allution Islands. Or a great circle route from Panama to New Zealand. No helicopters, no help, unless a passenger ship with a Doc. was in reach. If it was an try to operate or die situation then 'Go for it@.
Help was available from a medicol station in Holland which would talk you through an op. Every ship had a hospital with op table and a bunk on gimbals and enough morphine to kill the crew but the phrase ' Your life in their hands' was very appropriate.
The Medical Locker had just about all that would be required, a full operating kit with scalpels, retractors and the like plus a full dental kit for extractions. The Mater and 1st Mate could pull teeth s well!!!
Oh, what fun if it was a bloke you didn't like.
Just to clear up a point, the only real Officer on the Articles of a British Merchant Ship was the Radio officer. All the rest were 'The Master and Crew'. The Radio Officer was mentioned apart from the rest.
Cheers
John
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Given the shaky hands of some of the Masters and Mates I sailed with, I think that if it was 'life or death' I would get one of the Engineers to do the op. At least they were used to taking things apart and putting them together again. ;)
Barry M
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Royal Mail Lines.
Another long established outfit that hit the buffers. Same liner run as Blue Star (East coast of S.America) and also in the “meat” trade…meat as in “beef”, not as the NY Mafia would have it).
Another very personal opinion here, although their fleet of cargo liners were pretty much “normal” for their time, the passenger liners always looked “quirky”. The main reason for this “oddness” arises from what seems to be a fervent desire on the part of the owners to keep the ships officers as far removed from the paying passengers as possible. The picture of “Durango” illustrates this point. I may show a pic of one of their last “liners” later.But to be honest, I don’t know all that much about Royal Mail…being more of a Far East person.
But have another look at “Loch Gowan”….one of a class again, yet another “Clan” boat in different colours.
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Shaw Saville and Albion.
Known throughout the seafaring fraternity as “Slow Starvation and Agony”.
Another very long established company that is no more. I suppose that, on balance, Shaw Saville had more passenger liner type of ship (although still carrying cargo) than most other operators in the Antipodes trade. They, like many others, also had close ties with other companies. Just who owned what needs a better historian than me to sort out. For instance, as soon as I saw the photo of the “Nordic” I thought “Prince Line” (Furness withy). It really is surprising how many companies built ships whose appearance/design was so “in-house”. My one exception to this threads concentration on British design, build and ownership is the photo of “Bardic”. Simply because she was my first ship. Not that I’d joined SS&A, but because she’d just been bought by the Ben Line. She started life as the WW2 escort carrier HMS Puncher, and was built in Seattle.
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Bryan,
The island bridge was almost standard Royal Mail popicy and they persevered with it long after there was any reasonable grounds for doing so. They were just wedded to the hatch in the middle of the superstructure concept! Aragon and her sisters had relatively short lives on the South American run and were converted into car carriers after which they resembled seagoing bricks. She ended up looking like this: http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1332391
Colin
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Colin....oh, dear. I thought them to look odd enough when in their prime, perhaps the best I can say about your link is that the first word of the companys name is about right....if spoken in a Northumbrian dialect.
A pal of mine used to be Captain of one of these "things" (we get lots of them now, hovering off the Tyne for the next load of Datsuns...or is that Nissan nowadays). He had an awful time. Stress related heart attack, early retirement etc. He said it would have made things a lot easier if any 2 of the ships company had been able to converse in the same language...and this was a British flagged ship!. Cheers. Bryan.
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Port New Plymouth worked on here on deck back in the early 1970s great ship good ship mates bad cook on one trip stew ever night great bunch of photos thanks for listing them tassie48
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Well Colin they certainly didn't do anything for her looks when then converted her I think I described them as "boxes of the sea" in
an earlier post. Not to far wrong.
Geoff
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Strick Line.
Another well known company, although not having a fleet as large as most I’ve covered. They were a pretty common sight on the Tyne as most of them seem to have been built in the N.East, and returned here for dry-docking. When I first went to South Shields Marine College for my one year pre-sea induction in 1956, I was delighted to see a superb builders model of “Khuzistan” in the foyer (there was also a builders model of a Shell tanker, but enough of that). I wonder if they are still there?
They were very distinctive ships with a grey hull, black funnel with a white band and red and blue chevrons on the white. Their main route was between the UK and the Persian Gulf. Not a run that ever appealed to me….a view re-inforced when I was nav. on “Pearleaf and 1/O on a Tide during some of the “troubles” there.
In these 3 photos, the first 2 are a couple of standard wartime built ships. Most if not every company trotting the globe in the 1950s were still using the Forts, Oceans, Libertus etc. or variations of them. But they were being rapidly replaced by the new breed of “handsome” ships. “Seistan” being one of them. I’m dwelling on this for a reason.
“Seistan” was built by Readheads of South Shields and launched in July 1957.
In early 1958 (possibly her maiden voyage) while outward bound with a general cargo including explosives she blew up and sank killing all on board.
In those days the BBC used to broadcast a weekly “Merchant Navy Programme”, which we all used to listen to. I do recall being a cadet on Bennevis (an Ocean class ship) passing the southern tip of Ceylon when the news of her demise reached us. Quite traumatic for a second year cadet.
The disaster was put down to the eplosiveness of the large amount of “boot black” being carried. This has always puzzled and intrigued me. First of all, just what is “boot black”? A shoe polish? If so she must have been carrying the entire world supply of the stuff. O was it something that acted as a trigger for other forms of explosive? If that’s the case then the various explosives weren’t correctly segregated.
(see my story of the horrors we had when “loaded for bear” en route to the Gulf in 1987). A sad tale, even now nearly 60 years later.
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T&J Harrison.
I suppose this selection could have been filed under “H”, but as they were always known as T&J Harrison I’ve left them under “T”.
A “scouse” outfit known throughout the British MN as “Two Of Fat and One Of Lean” after the 2 wide white bands and the middle red one on the black funnel.
Another pretty large concern mainly running to South America.
I’m not sure how to classify this company. A bit of everything would probably fit them. Apart from the funnel, there wasn’t really much of the “family resemblance”. They did have classes of ship, but so many “classes” gets confusing. Also, like Blue Flue, they eventually used a pink boot-topping colour.
These are the first 4 of 9.
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For anyone enjoying Bryans photographs, this month Ships Monthly magazine are featuring a cargo vessel from this period - Wharanui
http://www.shipsmonthly.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=54
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20W/slides/Wharanui-02.html
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Harrisons (Cont’d).
There are a few points of interest in this last 5:
“Settler”. Unusually long derricks that would have to be stowed vertically on passage.
The unusual “boxing in” along the deck under the boat deck. Perhaps extra accommodation was added? Certainly doesn’t look original.
“Herdsman”. The 2 small additions at the for’d end of the poop. Look too small to be cabins, and why fit scuttles to a storeroom?
“Arbitrator”.
For some reason or other many ships built during the 10 years following WW2 had a design speed of only 12.5 knots. Why not 12, or 13? OK, 12.5 gives a days run of 300 miles. So that would make it simple for the owners to calculate the steaming time between ports. In theory. But owners like it simple, and if anything is amiss they can always send one of those “We fail to understand” letters.
“Barrister”.
First thing to note is the presence of a “docking bridge” on the poop. Don’t see them any more. Really intended to allow the 2nd mate or whoever was in charge down there to “control” the docking process….its effect in real life was to keep the 2nd mate out of the way and let the sailors get on with the job.
Then look at the cargo gear. It looks a mess, but isn’t. It seems as if the lighter derricks have been topped and swung out of the way of the (possibly) 20 ton derricks mounted on the ships centre line. But it does illustrate how much work was entailed in getting the derricks positioned in the “right” place.
“Custodian”.
Quite a handsome ship. The “pink” boot topping painted “twixt wind and water” clearly shows (more or less) the range of draughts between loaded and light ship….even though the “load line” is well above the top of the pink bit.
If it can be seen, note the difference in the height of the hatch coamings on the after deck compared to the lower ones on the foredeck. Much sturdier to allow heavy stuff to be carried as deck cargo.
I only saw one of this class a few times, but they always looked right for the job.
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T&J Brocklebank.
Another ancient company that thrived for going on 200 years.
Mainly traded between the UK and India.
Very distinctive ships set off by the very broad white line around the hull.
The photo of “Makrana” is typical of their later ships, and very reminiscent of the ubiquitous design used by Clan line and others. Another distinguishing feature of the later Brocklebanks was the absence of a full length mainmast, so they were the only company I recall that flew their houseflag from the foremast.
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Hi Bryne, great photos mate if you don't mind will it be ok for me to copy these and add them as a slide show on our web site.http://wallaseymodelboatsociety.co.uk/
Regards Dave.
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Dave,
I think you should be a bit careful there. The photos belong to Bryan but many of them are still almost certainly subject to copyright and currently on sale (see earlier post) so he is not in a position to give you permission and copying them again might be a step too far if somebody happened to notice!
Colin
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Harrison,s . You got two of my old ships there .One of the skippers from the Merch assosiation told me you had these on ,well I sailed on the old Barrister ,was on her for three years ,happy ship ,all scowsers except for the down below gang later on ,i started as junior 6eng ,and got my time in ,up to 4th ,then moved on ,not to the next ,but eventually joined the big C as she was known ,the Custodian ,sailed on her as senior 4th eng ,carried two 4ths because of the stulken lift ,big Allen generators down to power the lift ,sad thing was they were built so i was told ,just for the carrying off big electrical equipment to central america ,then it was an open shop ,but the trip i was on ,she broke down off Walvis bay ,and after 12 hours we got going and made Durban .She was a hansome ship ,what ever happened into her life later ,it was sad .but Harrisons had a real various runs , and nothing like Harrisons of London ,who I sailed with ,just for some variety and I got it ,,but that is another story as they say ,,now I sail model boats ,but you cant beat the real experience ,no way .
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Well, its not really a question of whether you see the harm in it, it's a question of legal copyright.
Thes originals of these photos belong to someone who makes a living from selling them and they wouldn't take too kindly to people making copies and showing them around for free. Three years ago the HMS Warrior Trust went bananas when they discovered I'd taken some photos for my own personal use while aboard the ship the day after I'd taken some official ones for an article I was writing for Model Boats magazine. I thought they were being a bit paranoid but it turned out that at a wedding aboard a few weeks previously, the photographer had taken a number of extra shots which he was trying to sell. I was able to square it OK with the Warrior people as I'd already agreed to let them approve the shots i was going to use in the article but these things are taken vary seriously.
As I said above, Bryan cannot give you permission to use any photos that he has not taken himself or does not hold the copyright on. If you choose to copy them yourself then the responsibility is on your head but as you got them from Mayhem you are possibly exposing both Martin and Bryan to potential action.
Colin
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I keep on quoting the Bishop today! He mentioned that I was coming to the end of the alphabet. He’s right again. I’ve got nothing beyond the “U”s.
I’d really like a few pics of Watts Watts ships. Especially the later ones, bristling with innovations they were. Inside cabins with picture windows etc. Not bad for a general trading outfit in the late 50s and early 60s.
I must see if I can recall companies that have gone, but I’ve got no records of. Too many to shake a stick at I would think.
Anyway. Another company that wasn’t all that well known was the “United Baltic Corporation”. The name implies their trade area from the UK.
Dredging my memory, there was some kind of cartel operating in this trade. I seem to remember from my Maritime Law lectures that there was such a trade agreement. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think UBC built many (if any) of their own ships. All second hand stuff.
The next 2 pics may illustrate that. The first one (Baltavia) was built for the US “Grace Lines” for their passenger route from the W.coast of the USA to Aussie/NZ. She looks a bit small for a passenger ship on that route.
The 2nd..”Baltrover” looks to me like an ex-“Moss-Hutchinson” ship. They traded mainly to Spain and Portugal. (Had to import our wine somehow). Their ships had names beginning with a “V”. Very pretty. This one is particularly neat and would make a lovely model.
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Hi All,
Photographed this one as we were leaving the Sognefjord in September - any ideas?
Dave
(http://s9.postimage.org/gm12jdcxn/SAM_0157.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gm12jdcxn/)
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Topic tided up.
A reminder to all Mayhemers to be mindful of copyright issues... I'm too young and slim and good looking to go to Goal!!! %)
Until I've got a definitive answer, please acknowledge origin of any photos reproduced here on Mayhem.
Martin :-))
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Topic tided up.
A reminder to all Mayhemers to be mindful of copyright issues... I'm too young and slim and good looking to go to Goal!!! %)
Until I've got a definitive answer, please acknowledge origin of any photos reproduced here on Mayhem.
Martin :-))
A point i made earlier (within the deleted posts) Martin,
There are pics / Photos / reproductions on this forum without credits ...we all walk the thin line!
Personally i have a Lawyer making sure I'm clear to go on a personal project to be sure were free to go... doesn't come cheap i can assure you!
Like i say turning a blind eye occasionally benefits all parties
Regards,
Kim
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Do hope that people read what you have just said Martin ,after all there is a site on that deals with any ship ,s and if you would like a copy ,they will sell you one for a donation to the Merchant Mariners , so its quite straight forward innit ,but then again / / / / keep Mayhem to what its doin and ,helping out model boat people ,no charge.
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Martin......does that mean that my thread can't continue?
Does it really mean that ALL photos on this site will in future have to be attributed?
Sort of kills things a bit, don't you think?
I appreciate the dilemma, but..........
BY.
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Topic tided up.
A reminder to all Mayhemers to be mindful of copyright issues... I'm too young and slim and good looking to go to Goal!!! %)
Until I've got a definitive answer, please acknowledge origin of any photos reproduced here on Mayhem.
Martin :-))
It is for that very reason that you would not go to gaol here in OZ, not to mention the overcrowding and cost of keeping you there. ok2 ok2 ok2 %) %) %)
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As you may have gathered, until “things” get resolved I’m a bit stymied where posting of pics is concerned. Not with these though.
So a very brief run through the design changes of Cable Repair ships from 1916 to the mid 1960s.
Starting with the “Monarch”. Built by Swans in 1916. This photo has been reproduced in various publications, but the same picture was held aboard “Norseman” as a reminder of “what can happen”. Although built for and operated by the GPO in the days before most of the cable companies amalgamated into what became Cable and Wireless, her design was fairly typical of her type.
What happened? She was shelled by an American destroyer killing all the crew that were on deck. Then as now?
But compare the design with that of “Lady Dennison Pender” built only 2 years later. Although it’s a really grotty photo, design development is evident. I served on this ship for over a year until she was withdrawn from service in around 1962/3. (she became worryingly unseaworthy….I explain about that in my Nautical Strange but true thread).
Then came “Mirror” and “Norseman” built by John Brown in 1923. A distinct family resemblance, but may improvements on the LDP design.
The basic design stayed much the same until after WW2 when “Stanley Angwin” and “Edward Wilshaw” became improved on “Recorder” built on the Tyne in 1954.
The next big improvement was with the design and build of “Retriever” and “Cable Enterprise” around 1964. Both these ships won the “ship of the year” award. Although the family resemblance remains, these 2 ships were purpose built to maintain the then new telephone cables (as opposed to “telegraph” cables).
I hope this is going to be only a short interlude before “normal” service can be resumed!.
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Hi Bryan
I would love your thread to continue, but only if you feel you could.
Regards Dave
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Dave,
Think we may have to wait, pending a reply to Martin's post, regarding definitve answer, see above.<:( <:(
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Topic tided up.
Until I've got a definitive answer, please acknowledge origin of any photos reproduced here on Mayhem.
Martin :-))
Hi, but doesn't that mean say where you got it from
'source internet page x' or source magazine x' or even 'source ancient postcard/photo and unknown' ?
I'm not being obtuse - but that's how I read it. I'm always willing to be corrected though?
There's currently a thread I am interested in about couplings, does this mean that a photo of
a Huco coupling has to be acknowledged? or what about a photo of a blue chinese esc?
Sorry - I honestly don't want to do a soapbox post, so ok, wait and see is the order of the day.
Seasons Greetings to All, Dave
Regards Dave
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Dave, I should have some good news on this subject in the New Year. Bryan.
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There is no 'definitive' answer - it all turns upon the circumstances and so you have to exercise a bit of commonsense or judgement. Usually there is no problem in reproducing an image just to make a point on something like an Internet Forum. Should there be an objection from a legitimate copyright holder then the image can simply be removed.
I often provide scans of old Model Boats articles to people looking for specific information. These articles might be twenty years old and while the copyright presumably now lies with MyHobbyStore they no longer have any practical interest in it, nor do they make it it available on request. On the other hand I would not do this in respect of articles in recent issues where MHS are offering the material for sale as back issues.
It can also depend on the attitude of the copyright holder. If you reproduce an advert for an item saying how much you like and recommend it then there is very unlikely to be any objection. If, on the other hand you reproduce the advert and say what a lot of rubbish it is and don't buy it at any price then you might find there would be an objection to using their image.
I can't see any problems in what Bryan is doing on this thread but one of the photos he posted is currently being offered for sale by the copyright holder and I merely pointed this out.
I don't think this is a subject to get too hung up about but people should be aware of the general background. Sometimes the copyright holder does object and is legally within their rights to do so.
Colin
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I recently came across this small hardback book published by Swan Hunter & Wigham-Richardson. It's a real little gem, published in 1906 ...that is more or less dated by a graph showing the "estimated" date of the Mauritania launch. As usual, most of the detail behind the photos (re-sized from over 1mb) is on the text pages of the book(let). Being over 110 years old, I guess that copyright rules don't apply! The entire book only takes up 24mb so I'm quite willing to either transmit or send CDs.
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Hi Bryan
Nice to see one of my favorite threads revived :-)
I quite like the SS Princess Victoria.
Dave
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"Victoria"....interesting. Take away the funnels and put a beam engine in place. Then stick on a couple of big side wheels. Then you have what (to me) looks like a recent ancestor of "Victoria". Such is evolution I guess. I suppose CPR ran these "boats" both up and down the St.Lawrence and aound the Great Lakes...looks big enough.
Thanks for your comments.....I do have a bunch more photos...but as you know, I'll have to be a bit "picky" as to what I can post.
Regards. Bryan.
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Rooting through my “archives” the other day I came across a few little books I’d totally forgotten about.
The first one is about British general cargo ships published (I think) in the late 1950s. I was a young and keen cadet at the time and I used to wander around the various docks I found myself in. London, Liverpool, Glasgow etc. and use the book much as trainspotters used to do, and “check off” the ships I saw. Seems a long ,long time ago now.
Over the next few days I’ll attempt to post photos from the book…..for details of the ships and colour schemes you’d need to peruse the book, which I’ve put on a CD: therefore available to anyone who wants a copy.
Looking at the photos from a 2012 perspective….oh, boy….what could I have done if digital cameras had been invented back then!
I hope you enjoy looking at what was our Merchant Fleet in the 1950s.
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Last of todays batch.....
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Worth modelling. O0
Not like todays boxes. :((
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Quite agree
Kypros appeals
Dave
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We regularly saw the Palm Line ships travelling the west African coast - but until I googled them I did not realise the line was founded and owned by
Unilever originally to bring palm oil back to make soap at Port Sunlight ( also used in the making of margarine)
Great pictures Bryan
Geoff
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We regularly saw the Palm Line ships travelling the west African coast
....... and I only got to see them on the Mersey - you lucky boy.
http://www.oceanlinermuseum.co.uk/Palm%20Line%20history.html
Cuppa coffee and a quick read Geoff.
Dave
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Thanks Dave but just spent the last few minutes reading that link - an interesting history and usual sad demise for british shipping lines
Geoff
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Another batch. Slightly different format, so I hope they are clear enough.
One thing that strikes me is that for such humble run-abouts is how neat and well maintained most of them are.
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I may as well crack on with this thread (now that it's started to rain again).
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Only one more selection after this one (!)
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Final 2 of this book. They are all on a CD at much higher definition than you see here. The CD also contains the fleet lists of all the companies shown. The fleet lists include details of launch dates, tonnages and dimensions...as owned by these companies back in the 1950s.
If your'e interested in a copy of the CD just send me an e-mail (address under the "profile button")...preferably not a PM as I'd need to know your e-mail address to respond. BY.
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Birtley (3) East Coast Collier
A brief history of three ships with the same name, and all built by Wood, Skinner & Co for the Burnett Steamship Co. Ltd. The three BIRTLEYS were all destine to be lost along the East Coast and provide some colourful history along the way. The first BIRTLEY, built in 1900, ran ashore along Flamborough Head in November of 1905 and became a total loss there. The second BIRTLEY, built in 1906, was to rpedoed and sunk by a German U-boat off Filey Bay in 1918 with the loss of all hands.
The third BIRTLEY, built in 1923, first ran aground at Whitburn in 1930 but was refloated, then again in 1941, she was driven ashore on the long sands at Tynemouth and her crew rescued by the Tynemouth Lifeboat. She was once more refloated and finally, whilst on passage from London to the Tyne, she sank in the Wa sh Approaches after detonating a German laid mine.
ref Carl Racey, A Century of Steamship Losses
Here is a picture of the third Birtley, the yard she was made in, one of her groundings, and the start of an EeZeBilt model of her...
(http://s18.postimage.org/5g34v70qt/birtley004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5g34v70qt/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/i2vgrmfrn/wood_skinner_yard.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i2vgrmfrn/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/lp5vi0bir/birtley_1923.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/lp5vi0bir/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/g4te7dcnn/birtframe.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g4te7dcnn/)
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Sailed on the Oregis several times good time
In those days we had the crew to maintain them
Red lead was real paint not todays dishwater
Dave
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I've been looking for some more MV Villegas or Wavecrest images
but no luck yet - sometimes things just catch my eye and I want
to follow up - just a diversion.
Dave
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Chapman,s one of my old ships ,slave driver ,and the ore carrier ,what a ship everything went red for days .good old times ,and thanks for posting them one day ,maybe I,ll get some out ,just a lot of work to sort them all ,memories .
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Good to see the old cargo boats featured rather than the high profile liners. It brought back many memories. It would have evoked even more nostalgia to have seen Ellerman Wilson boats featured as I did my first voyage as a Junior Engineer (sixer)on the Marengo, winter North Atlantic leaving home port of Hull on Christmas Eve. A real baptism of fire, boy was I seasick for the 10 day slog to St. Johns Newfoundland. Still did not miss a watch even if missed all meals. Real workhorses on regular trade of newspaper,grain ,mollasses etc. Hull/Canada. I understand this was the Ellerman families personal fleet and flew their own houseflag.Green hull, red funnel ,single island. The North Atlantic fleet were six thousand tonners, then there was the fleet of 3/4 thousand tonners on the Scandinavian trade and a couple of tramps plying the Meditteranian trade. A very neat and tidy small personal fleet of working cargo boats.
For the records the Atlantic boats were triple expansion engines withe Baur Wach exhaust steam turbine and four Scotch boilers. A very efficient unit.
My time with Wilsons was in the 1950s, before I graduated to the luxuries of the Union Castle Line.
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Sorry, I thought that I'd mentioned E-Wilsons when I did the "E" section. Perhaps not. BY.
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By now most of you will know that my main interests lie within the Mercantile field.
However, reluctant as I am to involve the "Royal Navy" in any of my endeavours, I recently found a long forgotten and ignored book on a shelf depicting the RN as it was in 1936. Quite a rarity I think. The quality of the pics outstrips the photos published in "Janes" of the time, and also includes the reasoning behind the formation of "The Fleet" at the time.
To be honest, I'm a bit unsure about where, and how much of it to post here. But if any of you want a few samples posted I'll happily do it.
Some replies required here. Regards. BY.
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Hi Bryan
Why not post it up as a seperate thread?
I like this thread just the way it is - if it was on Sky
I'd have it set on autoview and series link :-)) plus repeats.
Your thread though, so your the Man O0
Dave.......'Still shakin' the tree here boss' (erm just had a 'Cool Hand Luke' moment there) %%
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Bryan I think a separate thread would be a great idea for your Fleet Review
Geoff
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Never really thought this one through, did I. Your'e right. Same heading but new thread.
Not just yet though.....I'm not through with the merch yet. Ta, Bryan.
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Well, what a traumatic time has been had by all.
At least I've been promoted from "Guest" to "Deck Boy"! (Or "peggy" as he was known back in the dark ages of the 1950s.
Now all I have to do is to trawl through the photos I've posted and those I haven't.
Re the 1936 pictures of the RN, I gave a copy to "Pugwash" last sunday and I await his review before I post any of it....mainly because I really have no idea (or interest) in the doings of the RN.
While I'm putting my head back together I thought I might illustrate the ships of some "foreign" countries to show what the competition was like during the "post war" years. Continue soon. Bryan.
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Bryan I sent you an e-mail on Sunday evening after I had spent very pleasant couple of hours reading the CDs contents.
Some of the photos are really clear and could have been taken within the last few years and not 75 yrs ago.
Like a modern ship reference book there is a useful bit of info on each class as well as the pics
I think it would make an interesting post on here.
Well worth the effort I think
Geoff
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Bryan I sent you an e-mail on Sunday evening after I had spent very pleasant couple of hours reading the CDs contents.
Some of the photos are really clear and could have been taken within the last few years and not 75 yrs ago.
Like a modern ship reference book there is a useful bit of info on each class as well as the pics
I think it would make an interesting post on here.
Well worth the effort I think
Geoff
Thanks Geoff. Just what I needed to get rolling again. Bryan. (PS....e-mail not rec'd due to the "crash no doubt!).
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OH great guns ,one of my old companies there ,Tates,s Sugar Line .I sailed on the Producer ,she was using a prototype J type Doxford ,trip before I joined her the third engineer was killed ,crankcase explosion ,I joined to replace him and did,nt find out till outside on the way to the Cape ,lovely ships though .
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OH great guns ,one of my old companies there ,Tates,s Sugar Line .I sailed on the Producer ,she was using a prototype J type Doxford ,trip before I joined her the third engineer was killed ,crankcase explosion ,I joined to replace him and did,nt find out till outside on the way to the Cape ,lovely ships though .
Dave. When I was a pre-sea cadet at South Shields Marine College (1956) I used to put on my cadet uniform and just wander through the gates of Smiths Docks (North Shields) and then and then just wander around any ship that took my fancy. No-one took any notice of me...assuming that I belonged there. I learned a lot from those walks. But I well remember the "Jamaica Producer" as she smelled different compared to the other "dry cargo" ships. But, although very small when compared to more modern ships, she had an aura of grandeur about her. A bit like visiting a real Victorian hotel these days. I can't recall how many passengers she carried, but I'm sure that they were well looked after and treated well. I also think that it may well have been a bit pricey to travel on her. Much better to be paid for the privelege! BY.
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I'm back lads though ........
It seems I have an alter ego everywhere - mckenzig?
I mean, do I look like a mckenzig?
Post some pics please Bryan - go on surprise me :}
Dave
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I'm going to struggle a bit now.
The previous pictures have been of ships in the British Merchant Navy. The later pics were, by and large, of ships built in the post-war years of the 1950s. But it shouldn't be forgotten that just about all foriegn countries were also building up their own Merchant fleets. Particularly the N.European nations.
Germany, France, Holland, All the Scandinavian countries had fleets that in many cases outclassed the British fleet in size of fleet, quality of build,crew training and pure visual appeal. Even the Swiss had a sizeable fleet. Only the top few of the UK companies could really match these new fleets for "presentation" at the time. One huge exception was the international fleet of US registered ships. Invariably "ugly" and equally invariably; "throwbacks" from WW2. Only my opinion, but the USA has always suffered from a kind of isolationism and disregards the rest of the world. The USSR (in the 1950s) were not really a big player on the International shipping stage....that came later. Spain, Italy Greece etc had a hodgepodge of ships....only Yugoslavia had made some sort of effort.
But here's just a small sample.
I particularly like the "Frida Dan" (Danish). Those of you with long memories will recall that "Magga Dan" was used by the RN as the Antarctic ship before "Endurance" was introduced.
I include the "Cobetas" as a pretty fair example of the Spanish MN during the 50s.
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And most of you will remember the Anita Dan. Better known as HMS Endurance after being bought by the RN in 1967
Geoff
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see the Collyto ,she has a Reas and two Cock tugs on ,must be taking her round the nuckle at East float memories good though keep them coming .please.
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I think there were also Nella, Kista, and Thalla Dans
Dave
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Geoff...are you sure it wasn't the "Magga Dan"?
I was thinking of pulling out the "Foreign Ships" bit as I thought there wouldn't be enough interest to sustain it..maybe I was wrong.
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Bryan HMS Endurance definitely started off life as the Anita Dan
Geoff
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OK Geoff! So why does the name "Magga Dan" seem so familiar! One of lifes little puzzles.
Anyway....a few more.
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OK Geoff! So why does the name "Magga Dan" seem so familiar!
Possibly because it used to be a very popular MAP Plan by Vic Smeed. http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/29188/mm2048-magga-dan
Colin
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Thanks Colin. I knew the name had stuck from somewhere!
I must mention the "Skou" line here. They were so distinctive that they always drew the eye. Always immaculate...more like cargo carryin yachts than Ocean "tramps".
The reason there are so many pics today is because the weather has changed from yesterdays balmy summer to late autumn....
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To huge sighs of relief, these are the last ones in this section. I hope I've been able to show how well the N.European based companies developed after WW2 with some beautiful ships...as opposed to the American ones that kind of stagnated as far as design was concerned. But as the US companies were never fully independent of government, perhaps that isn't too surprising.
The Japanese were also very busy during these years....although I haven't got much to show of them.
The next section will be on foreign owned ships in the "liner" trade. Not necessarily passenger ships. More cargo-passenger ships that ran on regular routes to a timetable.
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I am sure there was more pride in the ships in the 60s and 70s - They nearly always looked smart and as they carried
larger crews they seemed better painted (don;t know if there is any connection)
Geoff
l
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This is what I've been missing, my daily fix of BY'S great Pics and nautical postings.
YES PLEASE to a RN thread.
Regards
Richard :-))
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Although I've kept the title 0f this thread "Old Merchant Ships", many of the latest postings were either fairly new or at least still around when I was a cadet. But I'm afraid that many of these companies have gone the way of many British ones.
As I mentioned earlier, this section is about ships engaged in the "liner" trade...to a timetable.
My little reference book doesn't include much in the way of detail, a pity as for this section I'd have been interested in the no. of passengers they could carry, and where they were built.
As is usual, I've put the last 3 sections on to a CD which also gives the ships colouring and trading routes...as well as the other ships in the various fleets. yours for free if you wish. Send me a (proper) e-mail (not a PM) and I'll reply soonest.
But to the pics;-
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Good to have you back Bryan! :-))
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Good to have you back Bryan!
Wow, Martin....when I noticed that it was you who had posted I thought " Oh, ****, what have I done wrong this time".
Thanks for the mild cardiac arrest. Regards. Bryan.
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As I can't find a button that says "New Topic" then I'll just have to take a chance with a name change.
The Old Merch thread will continue....but this little lot is in the way of a change ...for me,anyway.
The book needs a little bit of explanation...so bear with me.
My late father in law was an avid collector of all books'n'stuff nautical but never really said much about his books. I kind of inherited his "collection" but didn't really get around to looking at it until recently. This is one of the gems I found.
The book isn't just a collection of photos and drawings but also a lot of text that gives a real insight to the mindset of the RN and HMG during the mid 1930s. Please read as well as looking at the photos.
I'm posting the book in sections that are out of kilter with the actual layout of the book...makes my task that bit easier.
However, the entire book is now on CD and available gratis to anyone who'd like a copy. Normal procedure. Send me an e-mail for details.
But to work.....
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As I can't find a button that says "New Topic" then I'll just have to take a chance with a name change.
Hi Brian
It's on the topic page for Full Scale Ships but not on this page.
I would be interested (even more) if you have transatlantic liners, particularly the Corinthian as I sailed on her to Canada in 1965. :} :} An emigration that went wrong !!
regards
Ken
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Hi Brian
It's on the topic page for Full Scale Ships but not on this page.
I would be interested (even more) if you have transatlantic liners, particularly the Corinthian as I sailed on her to Canada in 1965. :} :} An emigration that went wrong !!
regards
Ken
I have picture of Corinthic (1946 - 1969)...used a passeneger ship until 1965 and then used for freighting. She was...as the name implies...a Shaw Saville ship. Probably not the one your'e after. Bryan.
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It looks like they discontinued her passenger use when I stepped off. :}
I'd love to see any pictures you have Sir
regards
ken
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May as well continue here unless the "auditors" decide to change things.
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Kenny, for what it's worth....here's "Corinthic"
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This is all going to be a bit of a hodge-podge I fear.
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Super pictures Bryan,
reading the text, it seems that politicians never learn.
Do you mind if I download your pictures ?
Repulse and Barham were two of the most photogenic ships built. ( In my opinion )
Regards
Richard :-))
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Super pictures Bryan,
reading the text, it seems that politicians never learn.
Do you mind if I download your pictures ?
Repulse and Barham were two of the most photogenic ships built. ( In my opinion )
Regards
Richard :-))
Richard, to be quite honest....the reproduction of the pictures is absolute rubbish when compared to what the definition is on the CD. For example....on Mayhem the maximum file size has to be 161kb or less. The ones I have on file are over 1mb. That's why I say take the offer of the real thing rather than a rather poor copy. But more to come.
"Hood" next I think.
The book on CD runs to over 200 pages.....I'm only posting a small sample of them. Cheers. BY.
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I have a copy of Bryan's Royal naval CD and some of the pics are terrific - and don't forget Bryan is only showing you a small
sample of the photos - There are some of the clearest pics of submarines I have seen from that era.
Geoff
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E mail sent.
Regards
Richard
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Now we come to the "Hood"....read the words, and realise how "out of date" she became.
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HMS Hood was one of the best looking ships ever to leave a shipbuilders yard.
It was not her design that let her down, but the Admiralty using her for a purpose she was not designed for.
Her designation as a BATTLECRUISER tells you that she should never have been sent near an enemies battleship.
The purpose of a battlecruiser was to destroy the enemies cruisers and be able to escape from any ship that could harm her.
When designed, cruisers were a fleets scouts, so in theory Hood was built to find and destroy the cruisers and then get out of the way and let the
heavy weight's slug it out.
Regards
Richard
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HMS Hood was one of the best looking ships ever to leave a shipbuilders yard.
It was not her design that let her down, but the Admiralty using her for a purpose she was not designed for.
Her designation as a BATTLECRUISER tells you that she should never have been sent near an enemies battleship.
The purpose of a battlecruiser was to destroy the enemies cruisers and be able to escape from any ship that could harm her.
When designed, cruisers were a fleets scouts, so in theory Hood was built to find and destroy the cruisers and then get out of the way and let the
heavy weight's slug it out.
Regards
Richard
Did you get my return e-mail? Sometimes they do go astray!. Bryan.
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After a blissful and welcome afternoon in the sun...next 12 (2 parts) coming up.
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Part 2 of "Carriers".....
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hi there ,your pics are absolutely fasinating ,and the info on the Hood is a must ,comes in very handy as i myself and two other friends are building this in the weekly kit ,it does have a bit of history ,but no where near as good as what you are showing ,thank you .
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E mail found mixed in with SPAM !
Will get sorted at the Post Office on Wednesday.
Many thank's
Richard :-))
P.S. great post on the early aircraft carriers.
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Honestly guys, it's so gratifying to get that sort of "feed-back"....makes it all worthwhile. Thanks. BY.
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Starting to go down the scale now...
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Coal fired 4000ton Merchant Ship, SS Ionian sailing around the Med in 1939, when she was new. This is approx a 20 minute film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyIzusv5yE
(not sure whether this should have been posted under youtube - moderator please move if required).
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This is the ideal place Tony. :-))
ken
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Hello again Brian,
My ship was the Corinthian but you showed the Corinthic. I thought it might be a spelling difference but the ship didn't ring any bells with me when I saw it. It was 1964 and not 1965 that I travelled to Canada in her. The travel agent said she leaves at 4.30 from Liverpool so I arrived at midnight to make sure. I learnt it was not using the 24 hour clock so, I had to wait until the following afternoon to board. %)
ken
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Being such a glorious day with sleety rain..or perhaps rainy sleet, decided to quit planking the "barge" for today and return to the old Merch.
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Oops....made a bit of blunder with the "Hamburg".....should read "1954 - 9000grt - 540' - 17k - M. Sorry. BY.
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Derek,
My question was not about how big a typical crews was - I sailed with enough of those - but how big it would have to be before the carriage of a doctor was mandatory.
Barry M
The maximum number of crew before a doctor was required was 99. So "large" RFAs had them whilst others didnt.
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Have any more old pics come to light Bryan? :D
Or of the cargo handling - do you have those too maybe?
All my uncles were Dockers but my Dad was on the Railways
I was always on the shunt engines in the yards at Edge Hill
but I never seemed to get to go down the docks. I remember
always wanting to go in a dock crane - it never happened.
My Dad would take me into the rail depot, then an old chap named
Blue used to sit me down and we'd around all day Saturday shunting
wagons everywhere.
Dave
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Dave,
I didn't realise and you have my utmost sympathy.
Can't imagine, how you must have felt, being Shunted around from pillar to post.
%) %) %) %) %)
{-) {-) {-) {-)
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I'll accept the sympathy because it's 50 years later I'm now working there.
I did manage a few years with The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board though.
Dave
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I'll accept the sympathy because it's 50 years later I'm now working there.
I did manage a few years with The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board though.
Dave
So it seems ya iz olda dan me eh what hence me sympathy ta ma elders.
We raze em rite in OZ ya no. O0 O0 O0
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Nice to see that this thread is still looked at.....but surely some of our Antipodean (or even American) cousins have photos of old ships in theiir harbours. If so, thenplease post them. BY.
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hello brian i was wondering if you could help me... i have a rc ship its old and while scraping years of old hull paint i found the name IOLANTHE only ship with that name i have found only has 1 funnell my model has 2 any info would be helpfull thanks pad
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Looks as if you'll have to do a bit of web searching on that one! The only Iolanthe I know of is the one written by Gilbert and Sullivan. Sorry. BY.
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wasent that greek ship ,the Arkadia the one that went on fire off the Canaries about 1965 ,if it was Iwas on the old Forrester ,and went to her mayday . interesting .
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Dave,
That was the Lakonia. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMS_Lakonia
LB
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I've found one with two masts, one small boat, and one torrpedoed, and just maybe a trawler
but nothing yet with two funnels .... I'll keep mooching about for you - never know your luck eh?
How about a picture of the model - it might hold a clue for someone?
Dave
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L B ,Thanks ,just found my letter of thanks ,and of course Lakonia . The owners sent a letter to all the crew thanking for the responce to their call .
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Bryan,
great set of photos, what a valuable archive, thanks for sharing!