Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Detail Work, Rigging, Fittings, Figures Etc. => Topic started by: boatmadman on March 23, 2007, 07:53:19 PM

Title: deck fastenings
Post by: boatmadman on March 23, 2007, 07:53:19 PM
Hi,

I am about to start laying the deck on my drifter. can anyone tell me the best way to simulate the deck bolts please?

I tried pen on the wood, but it bleeds.

I have a successful method of 'caulking' between the planks, but the 'bolts' have me baffled!

Ian
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on March 23, 2007, 07:56:05 PM
what scail are you doing the boat at??  so we know what size we have to work with.. Peter
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on March 23, 2007, 10:27:44 PM
Hi,

I am about to start laying the deck on my drifter. can anyone tell me the best way to simulate the deck bolts please?

I tried pen on the wood, but it bleeds.

I have a successful method of 'caulking' between the planks, but the 'bolts' have me baffled!

Ian
The bolt heads are covered with a wooden plug to blend in with the deck. No useful purpose would be served by doing this  at a modelling scale.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 24, 2007, 02:05:49 AM
The bolt heads are covered with a wooden plug to blend in with the deck. No useful purpose would be served by doing this  at a modelling scale.

If you did want to do this, then perhaps you could try:
Take a very small bore brass/copper tube and sharpen the end a little.
Tap it into the deck surface to make a circular indent, which would simulate the join around the plug.
Then weathing it a little.


If you think the bolts may have been countersunk and not covered you could use a brass rod (cut square) to make a small round indent, and weather the indent with a dark wash.


Just a thought ???. I dunno what I am talking about. I have no idea what a working boat deck would be like, but I can guess. ;D


Just a thought,
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: RickF on March 24, 2007, 09:52:38 AM
I think Tiger's first idea is the best. A bit of "artistic" weathering to make some of the "plugs" more prominent should do the trick, but most should be almost unnoticeable. To be super-authentic, you could leave one or two out and show the bolt head, if the scale is big enough.

Rick
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on March 24, 2007, 10:02:50 AM
hi there, boatmadman

Have you any pictures of the actual deck that you are trying to make?  Not wanting to throw the cat amongs the pigeons but not only were wooden plugs used to cover the bolts in deck planking, but also boiling pitch was sometimes poured over the top of the bolt, especially on work vessels where the deck took some hammering and the deck planks were frequently replaced.

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: boatmadman on March 24, 2007, 07:34:39 PM
Hi,

It would appear that the deck bolts were covered in pitch, so I am looking for some way of simulating this.

Thanks

Ian
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on March 24, 2007, 07:41:29 PM
Hi ya there Ian, boatmadman,

what scale are you building?  because, I am thinking, you know the little brass building pins we use for planking a hull, well...some of them (the very tiny ones) but it would be a tedious job knocking them all in on your deck.  Or, you could us the dressmaking pins - cut the head off the top of the pin and use the top of the pin.   The other way, I wonder, if you satin varnish the deck first say with one coat of varnish and then try with the pen to see if it still bleeds.

lets know how you manage.

I am still thinking .....  :D

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 25, 2007, 06:15:38 AM
there is a little tool you can get for pushing panel pins into softwoods.
It looks like a small crewdriver but the shaft is hollow.

Pop the pin in side and push.

If you wanted to simulate it being sunk you could then use an oversized centre punch. This would punch is in and leave a larger recess that you could fill with a black wash to simulate pitch.

Just a thought
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Captain Anonymous on March 25, 2007, 09:37:34 AM
The other way, I wonder, if you satin varnish the deck first say with one coat of varnish and then try with the pen to see if it still bleeds.

Bluebird, Thats what I do when I do my planked deck. ;) ;)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DougMaz on March 25, 2007, 12:49:53 PM
Hi Boatmadman,   I used a centre punch to sink the hole then mix black water paint with PVA woodworking glue and dip a tooth pick in it then dab the black glue in the centre punch hole it looks like black pitch good luck. Dougmaz.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 25, 2007, 02:07:03 PM
mix black water paint with PVA woodworking glue

Hi Doug
Do you mean powder paint?
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DougMaz on March 26, 2007, 12:29:32 PM
Hi tigerTiger,Any black paint you can wash the brush in water.  Paint from a kids paint box,Paint you slap on a wall,Yes powder paint, I use vandike Cristal's. Dougmaz.  Where did you get TigerTiger from??
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 26, 2007, 12:53:56 PM
Where did you get TigerTiger from??

A rude schoolboy version of one of a poem, Tiger tiger burning bright

Came about as a rapid response to being barred on another site for telling the moderator he was over reacting. This was to someone elses post. I was not alone and that Ed is not longer with that website.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: RickF on March 26, 2007, 01:49:38 PM
TT,

I love poetic parodies - any chance of sharing that one? Here's one which may strike a chord with anyone who's been "East of Suez".

Tiger, Tiger, burning bright. In the NAAFI, every night
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 26, 2007, 01:54:21 PM
It has more to do with creeping into the jungle for a shovel recce
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Shipmate60 on March 27, 2007, 11:05:44 AM
Try using a soft pencil in a scrap piece of wood, then varnish deck to seal in.
It should work on the deck if the pencil is blunt.

Bob
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on March 27, 2007, 11:45:03 PM


Just consider a moment. A Plank is about 5" wide and is fastened to the underdeck with 2 (brass) bolts. The wooden plugs are not much more than 1.5" in diameter. They are (when made by a good shipwright) made in the way beer barrel plugs are made. i.e.slightly tapered, hammered in and smoothed off. In over 40 years at sea I have NEVER seen "caulked" plugs. In fact, after a few years usage and scrubbing down it is very hard to even spot them. Don't ruin an otherwise good model by adding things that cannot be easily seen even on the real ship.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: tigertiger on March 28, 2007, 04:06:03 AM
I have been on small fishing vessels where you can see them. These boats are about 40 ft or less.
Perhaps the plugs have fallen out.

All these boats were family run fishing boats and very neglected.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on March 29, 2007, 10:28:37 AM
Tiger Tiger and anyone else interested

When you are building a model of a working vessel - especially fishing vessels - bear in mind the real vessels are very hard working vessels, especially fishing boats.  They have to earn their keep so, shall we say, any fishing vessel that is tied up against the quayside, isn't earning its keep.

The decks on these vessels, being hard worked, are 9 times out of 10 repaired in a hurry, so, when the deck fittings are replaced - they are normally repaired and replaced in the time that the vessel is discharging its cargo.    Most of the time, its a case of make do and mend.    This is much the case with decking on fishing vessels - from say 20 foot up to the factory fishing vessels.  So, you may often see fishing boats with decks which have pitch on top of the plank holding bolts.

Modern larger fishing vessels now are all steel constructed along with their decks.  If you have a close look at them, where the actual area for trawling gear is operated on the decks, you will often find welded patches.  There are often also multicolour patches of paint where it has been repaired.

To get some facts right:

You never use brass or bronze fastening bolts through steel on decks to hold deck planks down.  They are made of galvanised steel.

Reason:  Electrolytic salt water corrosion between the two metals.

This is also the reason that on some steel ships and boats you have the zinc anodes welded around the stern of a ship when she has a bronze propeller.

aye
John E
BLUEBIRD









Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on March 29, 2007, 11:02:37 PM
TT,

I love poetic parodies - any chance of sharing that one? Here's one which may strike a chord with anyone who's been "East of Suez".

Tiger, Tiger, burning bright. In the NAAFI, every night
Sounds like the ANZACS again.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bradders on March 31, 2007, 09:32:27 AM
Sorry could you enlighten me to what the ANZACS is ?

Bradders
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bunkerbarge on March 31, 2007, 09:33:47 AM
I think everything here depends upon how you want to model your particular subject.

I have been at sea now for over thirty years and never seen teak decks that did not have the fastenings plugged.  However I have always sailed on cargo ships and passenger ships.

Fishing vessels do not have the luxury of the same levels of maintenence of these ships though so repairs could be anything from a blob of caulking to nothing.

If you wanted to make your fishing boat as a relatively new, well looked after or fresh out of a refit she would probably have nicely finished decks and you would definately not be able to distinguish the plugs.

If you wanted to make a heavily weathered boat after a hard winter or many years service then she would almost certainly have some noticeable deck repairs in evidence.  Bear in mind though that if you go for this option the boat would also have to demonstrate a high degree of weathering including damage to deck wood, bent steelwork, heavy rusting, damaged paintwork etc etc.

If it was me I really don't think the effort required is going to be worth it unless you really want a heavily weathered model.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: anmo on March 31, 2007, 10:45:49 AM
Sorry could you enlighten me to what the ANZACS is ?

Bradders

Long before you were born son, Australia & New Zealand Armoured Corps.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: RickF on March 31, 2007, 07:10:50 PM
Thats right Anmo, but it wasn't them. It was the RAF.

Rick
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DickyD on March 31, 2007, 07:13:21 PM
Sorry could you enlighten me to what the ANZACS is ?

Bradders

Long before you were born son, Australia & New Zealand Armoured Corps.
Australia and New Zealand Army Corps.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: boatmadman on March 31, 2007, 08:43:32 PM
Thanks for the comments fellas,

Ian
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bradders on March 31, 2007, 11:31:43 PM
Thank you gents, I was following the post up-to that point, thought I had missed something.

I find everyones views fascinating on this subject and just to throw another angle on it I always find scale details difficult depending on which period in a boats life you are modelling e.g should it be shiny and new like it just left the dock, or should it be as it enters dock after a sortie or indeed just before it goes to the great boatyard in the sky ? this can often have a massive effect on how it should look and what details etc are visible, but thats probably another post  :)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Colin Bishop on March 31, 2007, 11:44:46 PM
I think it is a matter of personal choice Bradders. Some people like 'em pristine, others prefer them weathered. Both are right. As for me, I aim for pristine but somehow a bit of weathered seems to creep in along the way - must be painting over the dust that does it!
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: boatmadman on April 04, 2007, 04:38:06 PM
Hi,

Thanks for the comments, i think I will go down the route of after first re-fit!  ;)  Sounds like a good excuse for not perfect but pretty good!

Ian
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on April 05, 2007, 06:58:32 PM
Tiger Tiger and anyone else interested ......
To get some facts right:
You never use brass or bronze fastening bolts through steel on decks to hold deck planks down.  They are made of galvanised steel.
Reason:  Electrolytic salt water corrosion between the two metals.
This is also the reason that on some steel ships and boats you have the zinc anodes welded around the stern of a ship when she has a bronze propeller.

aye
John E
BLUEBIRD

Sorry matey but you are 100% wrong. Brass bolts were the norm. I still have some. Steel and aluminium together I would agree with.Brass? No problem.I sailed with these methods of fastenings and they just stay "put", no corrosion and no interaction with steel. With regard to the notion that the wooden plugs were sealed with pitch , that would only happen if the plugs were of the wrong size. A properly equipped ship would always have a sack-full of plugs and the "chippy" would choose which ones to replace and then hammer them into place. A good lesson for the cadets to learn. "Real" ship construction is a many facited subject and should be approached with much caution by those with only theoretical knowledge.
Building a model to reproduce the "real thing" brings up the problem of just where do you stop. At 1:48 plug covers would be less than 1/32nd of an inch. Even a pencil line would be out of scale. And when you consider that the bolts (and plugs) were fitted in pairs the subject answers itself.
Anyone considering laying a "proper" planked deck should spend their time more productively working out the "shift of butts", otherwise it is as productive as painting the eyeballs of crew figures at 1:100 scale.
BY
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: omra85 on April 05, 2007, 09:42:19 PM
1st Neighbour "I thought he said he builds MODEL boats?"
2nd Neighbour "I don't care WHAT he builds, but if he keeps blocking the street every Sunday, I'm going to have a word with him!"

Have you still got it, John?

Danny
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on April 05, 2007, 09:50:33 PM
here is a picture of my boat which I built in my garden (so you see I dont only make model boats  :D) - by God with your statement omra 85 you dont know how far off the truth you are - boat now floating in Amble (I had to sell her) along with 150 years of family boatbuilding and repairing skills.

aye
John
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: anmo on April 05, 2007, 09:56:02 PM
Must have been a big boatbuilding operation John, if there were 150 of you working there, or was it 75 ? (just two years experience each......)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on April 05, 2007, 09:57:24 PM
Hi there Anmo, just me, meself and my old dad, and the 150 years comes in with the family tradition of boatbuilding and repair  :D

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 05, 2007, 10:04:07 PM
And flying boats too...
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on April 05, 2007, 10:10:21 PM
Colin Admiral, when you are watching 4 and half ton being lifted in air over house roof and tree - you know the nappy lining you mention in another topic - well you wish you wear about 8 pairs of them...as your mind calculates have we enough insurance in case it drops through neighbours roof, what happens if it knocks tree over and will boat fit on lorry.....Police shut road off only for an hour and a half... ;D

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 05, 2007, 10:18:12 PM
John, I can imagine! Down where my boat is they have been craning catamarans over the sea wall into the harbour all day. Monohulls have been going into the holding pond until the tide came up and they could lower the sill gate. One rather expensive boat made a dash for the gate without casting off all the steadying lines and was literally brought up short and hit the concrete gate edge with an eye watering crunch. Good start to the season. Me? I've just been spreading antifouling over my bottom.... Ache all over.

Colin
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DickyD on April 05, 2007, 10:20:15 PM
1st Neighbour "I thought he said he builds MODEL boats?"
2nd Neighbour "I don't care WHAT he builds, but if he keeps blocking the street every Sunday, I'm going to have a word with him!"

Have you still got it, John?

Danny

I think I'm missing something here. How did you know John had a boat 1/1 when he posted after you Danny ?? ???
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DickyD on April 05, 2007, 10:23:07 PM
John, I can imagine! Down where my boat is they have been craning catamarans over the sea wall into the harbour all day. Monohulls have been going into the holding pond until the tide came up and they could lower the sill gate. One rather expensive boat made a dash for the gate without casting off all the steadying lines and was literally brought up short and hit the concrete gate edge with an eye watering crunch. Good start to the season. Me? I've just been spreading antifouling over my bottom.... Ache all over.

Colin
Where do you keep your boat Colin ?

Richard ;)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 05, 2007, 11:00:01 PM
Where's this then?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bunkerbarge on April 06, 2007, 12:09:57 AM
What happened to Deck Fastenings?
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: DickyD on April 06, 2007, 09:30:00 AM
Where's this then?  ;D ;D ;D


That'll be Emsworth then.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Faraday's Cage on April 06, 2007, 09:43:45 AM
Quote
What happened to Deck Fastenings?

I think Coilin has got himself lost. :-\

Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: John W E on April 06, 2007, 09:57:35 AM
hi all, Dicky I removed my first topic off this thread myself because I had second thoughts - some members of the forum must have seen it though.  The top & bottom of my removed posting was 'On this forum there are a lot of people with a good lot of experience of various things.  Some people must learn a lesson to respect this and not think they are 100% right and 100% wrong MATEY!'

now shall we all get back on course for deck fittings via Admiral Colin's yacht.

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 06, 2007, 10:05:53 AM
Sorry folks, I was led astray by the other reprobates!

Going back to deck fastenings I think we've all learned more than we ever dreamed possible about these fixings.

To summarise, it seems to me that:

1. On a well maintained vessel they would be invisible under the plugs
2. On a badly maintained vessel with the plugs missing they would be virtually invisible at most scales, and vey small at the larger ones. They would be smaller than rivet heads for example.
3. If you are depicting the vessel as in need of maintenance then the rest of it should be in keeping i.e. dents in the hull, bent fittings, rusty patches everywhere etc. There is a good example of this ashore at the place I keep my boat, a small and very battered steel fishing vessel - I'll get a photo next time I see it.
4. As Bryan says, it's probably more important to get the planking butt lines in correct sequence to aid authenticity.

Colin
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: RickF on April 06, 2007, 12:04:26 PM
Carrying the butt lines theme a little further, where I have been unable to get genuine evidence from the prototype, I have used the following rough and ready system:

Commercial and/or smaller craft - three butt repeat at six foot spacing (18 foot planks)

Warships - four butt repeat at five foot spacing (20 foot planks)

Perhaps the forum's experts would like to comment?

Rick
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on April 06, 2007, 07:29:26 PM
Thank you gents, I was following the post up-to that point, thought I had missed something.

I find everyones views fascinating on this subject and just to throw another angle on it I always find scale details difficult depending on which period in a boats life you are modelling e.g should it be shiny and new like it just left the dock, or should it be as it enters dock after a sortie or indeed just before it goes to the great boatyard in the sky ? this can often have a massive effect on how it should look and what details etc are visible, but thats probably another post  :)
Why not just leave the model to weather naturally over the years...thats what real ships do after all.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on April 06, 2007, 07:53:35 PM
Carrying the butt lines theme a little further, where I have been unable to get genuine evidence from the prototype, I have used the following rough and ready system:

Commercial and/or smaller craft - three butt repeat at six foot spacing (18 foot planks)

Warships - four butt repeat at five foot spacing (20 foot planks)

Perhaps the forum's experts would like to comment?

Rick
Cannot comment on "small" craft, but on ships the shift of butts is generally 3 or 4. Either up to the owners or the general practise of the building yard. on "my" ships the length of a plank was between 20' and 30'....depends on what timber is used and where it comes from.
Older Warships could have planks up to around 9" wide, but nowadays I think between 4" and 5" seems to be the norm. I am not really sure what you mean about 5 or 6 foot spacings as a 4 shift would be only 2' or so. Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Shipmate60 on April 06, 2007, 09:34:46 PM
Also bear in mind that Working Vessels, even when refitted are painted over bent and bashed steelwork, chipped paintwork, etc.

Bob
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Tug on April 06, 2007, 09:44:24 PM
"I think I'm missing something here. How did you know John had a boat 1/1 when he posted after you Danny ?? "

              :)     you go back and modify your previous post,  ?cheating?

there could be a picture coming here if I find it?  [modified]...again   What tug is it? 'Cervia'

(http://)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on April 06, 2007, 09:52:54 PM
what tug is it tug ???
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on April 06, 2007, 09:54:38 PM
no, he did not modify HIS post
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bunkerbarge on April 06, 2007, 09:54:48 PM
One carefull owner, low mileage, full service history!! :)
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: RickF on April 06, 2007, 11:39:31 PM
Back to the subject of butt shifts, and to try and answer Bryan's question - if you have 20 foot planks, laid to a four butt shift pattern, surely the distance between the butts is five foot?

Maybe I have been getting it wrong, but the way I would work it out, a two foot distance would give 10 butt shifts per 20 foot plank.

Rick
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Captain Anonymous on April 07, 2007, 12:08:27 AM
Carrying the butt lines theme a little further, where I have been unable to get genuine evidence from the prototype, I have used the following rough and ready system:

Commercial and/or smaller craft - three butt repeat at six foot spacing (18 foot planks)

Warships - four butt repeat at five foot spacing (20 foot planks)

Perhaps the forum's experts would like to comment?

Rick



Normally on warships it was a 5 plank patern.
Title: Re: deck fastenings
Post by: Bryan Young on April 07, 2007, 06:35:42 PM
Back to the subject of butt shifts, and to try and answer Bryan's question - if you have 20 foot planks, laid to a four butt shift pattern, surely the distance between the butts is five foot?

Maybe I have been getting it wrong, but the way I would work it out, a two foot distance would give 10 butt shifts per 20 foot plank.

Rick
If you work in inches and start with a (say) 4" plank then make the one next to it 1" and the next 3" followed by a 2" length (all followed by 4" planks) this will give a satisfactory result.  i.e. 4-1-3-2....but 4-2-1-3 looks OK as well. Not knocking you at all, but we seem to be approaching the same problem from different directions!