Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Martin [Admin] on March 23, 2007, 08:42:25 PM

Title: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Martin [Admin] on March 23, 2007, 08:42:25 PM
 Hello All,
Martin, AKA captain Dobey, asked me to write a little primer about "Model Warship Combat" for the Mayhem site.
I'm by no means a expert but here goes.

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/eriesummer06016.jpg)


Models warship combat happens when a group of like minded modellers get together and build semi scale warships, arm them with Co2 powered cannons, go out to the pond and try to sink each other.

Here is another description from the Basin shipyards web site

Warship combat is a wonderfully addictive hobby where scale models of WW1 and WW2 warships are built, armed, and fought. These ships really do fire BB's and really do sink. All key internals are waterproofed or naturally waterproofed. The battle damage is readily repaired in a few minutes at the battle, allowing many sorties per day.

The Ships

The ships are semi scale WW I and WWII warships, the most common scale is 144th.
They are constructed with watertight boxes for the electronics and skinned with 1/32 balsa and silk span so cannon projectiles can penetrate and let the water in and bilge pumps to get the water out.
Holes made by the opposing team are easily patched with a litter glue and a bit of silkspan. so If your electric box is really watertight you can be sunk in the morning battle get patched up and ready to go out and be sunk in the afternoon battle....;)

Some ships are made with store bought GRP hulls, windows are cut and skinned over with the balsa.
some ships are made with wood ribs and the ribs support the 1/32 balsa skin, either way the balsa has to be thin enough to let the projectile through and allow the water in...

Each ship is given a battle unit designation, from 0 to 8.
The battle units are assigned to a warship based on the originals armament
A battle unit can be a cannon or a bilge pump, so its up to you to decide how you want to use your battle units.
lets say you have a Yammatto,the biggest battleship, this is a 8 unit ship you can have two battle units used up with two bilge pumps and six guns or one battle unit for the pump and the rest guns or even no pump and all guns....not recommended!

Speed is another factor in ship construction and is measured in the number of seconds it takes to travel a 100ft course.
The assigned speed is loosely determined by the speed of the original ship.
So dreadnaughts and predreadnaughts are generally slower than battleships of WWII.
An example is the HMS Dreadnaught has a speed of 28sec per 100 ft and the Hms Vangaurd has a speed of 24sec per 100ft.


The Cannons

The cannons are rather crude looking affairs made up of mostly plumbing fittings and tubing. The progectiles are 177cal steel balls, here in the states we call them BB's
the cannons powered by Co2 tanks that have the pressure regulated down to 150psi.
Cannons are constructed in such a way as that they only fire one projectile at a time. So when you hit the joystick and the servo opens the valve your cannon had better only let go of one BB or you must be willing to endure a lot of verbal abuse from your Mates.


The Battles

The battles are usually broken down between the Allied and the Axis, each side usually has an admiral in charge to plan out stratagem.
Points are awarded for the damage inflicted on the opposing side, for example one point for a penetration above the water line two points for on the water line and five points for below the water line......and of course a sink is cause for breaking out the pints and having a toast.

For more info here are a few links

http://www.mwci.org/ (http://www.mwci.org/) - http://www.ircwcc.org/ (http://www.ircwcc.org/)
http://www.basinshipyards.com/ (http://www.basinshipyards.com/) - http://www.battlersconnection.com/ (http://www.battlersconnection.com/)

Cheers
Alan

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/Picture005.jpg)

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/micronat031.jpg)

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/YamatosansSuperstructure.jpg)

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/battle2.jpg)

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/eriesummer06014.jpg)

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q168/MBmayhem/eriesummer06010.jpg)
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: RickF on March 23, 2007, 11:34:28 PM
I can see the attraction of this, but it all seems to happen at point blank range - there are several video on U-Tube. But a real opportunity to try out some Glynn Guest semi-scale models.

However, at the risk of laying myself open to a charge of "nannyism" (is that a word?) has anyone got away with doing it over here in the UK. Gas-propelled BB pellets across the park lake? "Allo, allo, allo. What's all this then? You're nicked, sunshine"

Rick
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Marks Model Bits on March 23, 2007, 11:52:26 PM
I want one looks like a lot of fun plus it might be a solution to stone throwing hooligans nothing on the model that cant be easily fixed and you can fire back, would make them think twice!!!!!!
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on March 24, 2007, 12:06:18 AM
worth a look

http://www.ausbg.org/

Peter
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: patchwork45 on March 24, 2007, 12:50:41 PM
  I found this link to a new site,if you go into the forums, in the video section there are some links to some videos on utube.

   http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/RCNavalCombat/

  Cheers

      Alan
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: rats on March 24, 2007, 01:14:05 PM
Watching those videos makes me think its an expensive hobby - new electronics and boat rebuild everytime out. Looks good fun though !
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: tigertiger on March 25, 2007, 05:25:12 AM
Watching those videos makes me think its an expensive hobby - new electronics and boat rebuild everytime out. Looks good fun though !

But the electrics go in a 'butty box', and the ships are patched up pronto.

This does sound addictive.

As kids my brother and I used to put old airfix models in the sand pit and pop with an air rifle. Naughty, but fun.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: J.beazley on March 25, 2007, 09:45:34 AM
What a great idea but i can see a few flaws in the sport.

in the event of a rollover say bye to your gel cells  :(
taken too many hits bilge pump cant keep up with the sinking :(
what if you take a hit to the gel cells or CO2 tank  :o

On the plus side you could build a perkasa and use the torpedo tubes as gun turrets how fun would that be  ;D fast attack and escape perfect.

Jay
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Tom@Crewe on March 25, 2007, 10:15:24 AM
Sorry can't be exact, but I can remember reading that this under UK law would be against the law, something to look at before you build.

And that was before they tightened up gun laws.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: RickF on March 25, 2007, 10:29:35 AM
Tom,

That's why I asked if anyone had done it in the UK. Even in the far-off days when I was a (air)gun-toting teenager, I believe the law forbade the firing of any gun within 50 feet of a public path. God knows what the rules are now.

Rick
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: tigertiger on March 25, 2007, 10:59:07 AM
I suppose it depends on the legal definition of 'gun' in the UK.

But I am in china where the fireworks set of car alarms 500m away from ground zero.

That could be interesting methinks
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BarryM on March 25, 2007, 12:21:52 PM
What a great idea but i can see a few flaws in the sport.

in the event of a rollover say bye to your gel cells  :(
taken too many hits bilge pump cant keep up with the sinking :(
what if you take a hit to the gel cells or CO2 tank  :o

On the plus side you could build a perkasa and use the torpedo tubes as gun turrets how fun would that be  ;D fast attack and escape perfect.

Jay

I saw a photo on a US website of what happened when a BB hit a CO2 tank. Perhaps the tank was faulty but the way it was ripped open by the escaping gas made me glad I was nowhere close when it happened.

Barry M
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: patchwork45 on March 25, 2007, 01:21:15 PM
    Here is a link to utube


        http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kotori87


    Thease brothers have made a lot of videos and have them posted.
  I found some of them quite entertaining.

   Alan
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: patchwork45 on March 25, 2007, 01:44:46 PM
  Hello All,

 I thought I would address a few questions that I have read so far on this thread.

  The electrices in the combat boats are protected from water by a watertight box ,much like one you would make if you were building a sub.

 The battery's and the co2 tank are protected by what we call "internal armor" in my case I use a sheet of flexable plastic that is loosely hung on the inside of the hull ribs.
the loose sheet of  plastic absorbs the impact of the low velocity projectile and it then rolls into the bilge.

 In general the battles are almost point blank which isn't realistic but after you get used to the Idea is still fun and challenging.
 
 Ive been emailing Martin for a few years now and during one of those exchanges I asked if there wasn't warship combat in the UK because of the gun laws. He believed it was but was interested and asked me to come up with some pictures and a few words.

  Hope this clears up a few questions.

   Alan
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin H on May 15, 2007, 05:17:00 PM
With regards to doing this in the UK  NO! NO! NO!

Plod would have you down the nick before the boat had sunk. If it fires a projectile powered by CO2 it would almost certainly fall within the firearms laws and they are much deeper than people realise.

For instance when is a smooth bore shotgun not a shotgun? When its barrel is less than 24" long it is then a firearm.

If you fired a catapult at someone you would be charged under the Firearms Act.

If you built a smooth bore CO2 gun at that size and with a kinetic energy of more than 12 foot pounds you would most likely find it was a firearm. This would of course require a firearms licence and have to be proofed by one of the approved " Proof Houses". You would then only be allowed to use it on an approved range and sand back stops don't float well.

As an aside and to prove the stupidity of our laws to our world wide friends. A news article today reported that the police had cautioned a man with "Possesion of an EGG with intent to throw". True, honest, cross my heart and hope to die.

It looks like great fun. Thats one more reason they wound not let you do it.

Yours with a grump on.

Colin H.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Martin [Admin] on January 22, 2008, 06:25:33 PM
Another video from my mate Alan... "State" side!
 Warship combat 2007 season highlites


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsKY6-85Deg
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on January 23, 2008, 03:32:29 AM
Well I completely lost a well thought post because of too many images...

ah well.. a quick version..

Here is my 1/72nd scale Italian DD in the early days
An updated version with the Japanese DD Tachikaze.
Light Cruiser Atillo Regolo
Guns for the Atillo Regolo.

The Destroyers are allowed two guns by our combat rules. They are semi automatic, each gun can carry 50 rounds in its magazine. The Co2 is run through two regulators to drop the pressure from
the High pressure Co2 bottle down to 100 psi or less. Guns typically run around 78 psi. The guns
must pass a penetraton test, and are not allowed to pass through 2"(50mm) of rigid insulation foam.

The guns are made up of Clippard Minimatic air valves, a bent stainless steel barrel, and a custom loader.
The loaders are required to allow only one round to be fired per "trigger" pull.

The critical components of the ship are kept in a water tight box. Over the years most people find that
thier water tight boxes hold water real well. Motors and some servos, typically gun rotation and elevation
servos are left exposed. A ship can be sunk and usually back on the water within an hour. Most of the
time is spent drying out the guns and loaders. My record for sinking is seven times in one weekend(2 days).
I got an award for that...  ::) Bilge pumps are limited in liters per hour, and by class. Larger ships are, actually,
allowed to pump less water than small ships. This is because the larger ships take more time and water to
sink, and are actually at less risk.


We had one member in Scotland for a while. He flew out to Washington state USA, stayed
a week at one of the members houses, and he flew home with a stately destroyer.
He kept in contact for a few years, but I have not heard anything about him for a while.

http://queensown.org/index.php
Honestly, if it had not been for members of this club, I would not have learned how to scratch build a ship.
 O0

Last picture,.. My Scirocco, sister ship Oriani, and a 1/72nd scale Bismarck.


Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: MartinH-K on January 28, 2008, 11:32:51 PM
While Colin is correct, in order to 'prove' a substantive offence under any legislation, the CPS must prove mense rae. This means they must prove that you either intended to commit an offence or were reckless as to whether an offence would be committed or not. That is the situation in ANY criminal case. If any of you were wishing to explore this option, you could do a lot worse than discussing it with the firearms officer at your local nick. I suspect that, given certian precautions were taken, you might find this was actually possible. Maybe not but what have you to lose?
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Mankster on January 29, 2008, 12:34:56 AM
What about those BB firing RC tanks that my local hobby store sells (basically a radio controlled air pistol)? Fires a good 25 feet or so and dont half hurt, still perfectly legal. And paint balling too.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: RickF on January 29, 2008, 12:13:39 PM
Going back to what I hinted at in March, the following are from various up-to-date sources

Airguns in Public Places

It is against the law for anyone to have an airgun in a public place unless they have some proper reason for doing so - for example, it has just been confiscated from an offender. A public place is anywhere where the public are allowed to go, regardless of who owns the land, and even though they may have to pay. Roads, streets, footpaths, canal towpaths, public parks, play areas are all examples of public places. If the general public have some sort of right or permission to be in a particular place, that is a public place and you are not allowed to have a loaded airgun in that place.


I guess those tanks are supposed to be played with in the garden? And paint-balling takes place on enclosed private land, with protective clothing - not round the park on a Sunday morning!

Highways

It is an offence to fire any weapon within 50 feet of the centre of any public highway, if by doing so you cause a nuisance. This offence could be committed by someone on private property close to a road who used a gun in a way which upset people on the road. Public highways include roads, bridleways and public footpaths.


The Penalties for breaking current UK firearms laws with Airguns are as follows:

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or 5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or 2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or 2,500 fine.
Killing or injuring any bird or protected animal unless authorised 5,000 fine.
Firing an air weapon within 15m / 50ft of a public highway 1,000 fine.


Still want to try it?

Rick

Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: grantl on February 03, 2008, 07:23:22 PM
If I'm reading this right then if you have, or make, a private pond then this would be ok. so long as the gun power was still low enough to be an air weapon and not a fire-arm. Given the description of the boats having balsa sides I don't think a lot of power is needed.

Sounds like fun, time to build a lake.

Grant
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: RickF on February 03, 2008, 11:45:42 PM
So long as you're more than fifty feet from the road, path or bridleway!

There have to be easier ways of enjoying model boating.
Title: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: andyn on November 13, 2008, 08:11:07 PM
http://westernwarshipcombat.com/ (http://westernwarshipcombat.com/)
http://www.morgretengineering.com/node/1 (http://www.morgretengineering.com/node/1)

I WANT ONE O0

How fascinating. don't think anyone else at the club would want one though, except maybe Bill.

Looks incredibly expensive though, one commercially made cannon barrel with 3 turrets is $150  :o
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: SteamboatPhil on November 13, 2008, 08:15:56 PM
When I lived in the states (some 10 years ago) it was very popular, and I used to go down to the local lake most weekends and watch the chaps slug it out and sink each other. Spend the week rebuilding and back on the water the following weekend---- :-)
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: andyn on November 13, 2008, 08:34:51 PM
Might have a go, have a bb gun (a cheapo one for clearing the  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( squirrels from the back garden before we got the dog), some hulls, some engines, and a lot of servos.

Watch out Tarquin, the boats coming for you (if it can keep up with the makara, which it won't...)

You sent those props/shafts Phil?, at the stage now where I'm ready for them (hinthint ;))
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Martin [Admin] on November 13, 2008, 11:39:57 PM
Is it legal in the UK?
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: gribeauval on November 13, 2008, 11:44:03 PM
Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Reade Models on November 14, 2008, 12:50:40 AM
I had to (seriously) talk a friend out of building a scale model battleship that would fire live .22 calibre rounds - and I'm not talking air guns here!

You can just imagine the corpses littering the pond side!

Malc
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on November 14, 2008, 06:01:24 AM
I have a boat that used to suffer monthly abuse.
Now it seems more like an annual event. The club members have
gotten old and petrol got too expensive this year.

How the Scirocco started out.
And how she typically ended up..

I got good at water proofing, and saving electronics after a dunking.  :-))

A video someone graciously provided for me... %)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4256407603276740435&hl=en
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Philipsparker on November 15, 2008, 09:26:29 AM
Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!

And the long answer that explains why ?

BB guns are legal. Obviously firing live amunition would be illegal and even if it wasn't, extreemly unwise ! The boats aren't armoured though so I assume it isn't going to need a particually high powered projectile to fight with.

Phil
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Proteus on November 15, 2008, 09:37:33 AM
Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!

And the long answer that explains why ?

BB guns are legal. Obviously firing live amunition would be illegal and even if it wasn't, extreemly unwise ! The boats aren't armoured though so I assume it isn't going to need a particually high powered projectile to fight with.

Phil

they use a type of BB gun the sides of the boat has  replacable panels made of very thin material so low power makes a hole in them......

Proteus
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 15, 2008, 11:04:00 AM
BB Guns may be legal in the UK but there are still restrictions on where and when you can use them. A pond on a private estate might be OK but you wouldn't have e a hope on any publicly owned water. There is another thread on here somewhere which discussed all this in detail, last year I think. Try a search.

Colin
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Colin H on November 15, 2008, 02:41:33 PM
I think you will find they use a kind of gas powered bb gun.

Depending on the kinetic energy produced these may require a firearms certificate and can then only be used on an approved range or for hunting purposes over approved ground.

If I remember correctly the legal limit when any kind of pellet firing gun becomes a firearm is 12 foot pounds.

Given the current attitude to guns in the UK I would suggest you give this one a miss unless you want to be the subject of a `hard arrest` by the tactical firearms unit.

Yours Colin H.
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Arrow5 on November 15, 2008, 03:29:31 PM
I`m sure Umi will be chiming here soon. She is somewhat of an expert on the American side of things in battling ships.
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: BarryM on November 15, 2008, 04:43:44 PM
It's reinvent the wheel time again.   >>:-( This subject has already been done to death on this forum and the end result hasn't chnaged.

Barry M
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 15, 2008, 04:48:36 PM
Yes, see here: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3401.0

Topics Merged.

Colin
Title: Re: What an awesome boating idea...
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on November 15, 2008, 05:36:20 PM
I`m sure Umi will be chiming here soon. She is somewhat of an expert on the American side of things in battling ships.

The guns are Co2 powered. The pressures are regulated to 100 psi or less.
The round size typcally range from standard bb's to 4.75mm ball bearings.
Some clubs allow up to 6mm ball bearings. In our club, the rounds are not
allowed to penetrat 50mm of pink or blue styrofoam, regardlesss of size.
Ships hulls are 0.8mm - 1.5mm balsa down to 13mm below the water line.

A red flag must be raised prior to any ships gun being charged with gas.
At that time all persons at the pond must don safety glasses.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: The long Build on November 15, 2008, 06:15:23 PM
I have just purchased one of those amphibious chariot tank things, and was extremely surprised at how quickly and with some power the plastic bb's are shot out of the cannon.. if you really wanted to attach something to shoot at another ship  could not one of these be used on a boat, although as previously mentioned probably not wise to do it in a public area.

Out of curiosity has any body herd of anybody being hurt or killed at one of these warship battle days.  (in the time I have taken to write this how many people have been killed injured by cars) !!
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: portside II on November 16, 2008, 02:06:30 AM
Just a thought ,maybe Umi will be able to answer this  , but the BB's used for ammo do they float  {:-{ .
daz
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on November 16, 2008, 06:59:15 AM
The bearings are copper and steel, while a lot of them end up in the boat, more than
a few end up in the water or the bushes surrounding the pond.

In the twenty years I have been playing, casualties consist of:

Numerous servos... too many to count. I personally have replaced about seven.
two rotation servos, two firing servos, and two rudder servos, and one elevation servo.
Then again, I have one servo, that has never been replaced..

Lots of Balsa and superstructure, and fiddely bits life rafts, men, 20 and 40mm guns and such.
Some boats have retired, and some like mine, just keep returning to battle.

One car windscreen and one car side window, and two truck side windows..
At one event, I called out to one of the guys, "Paul Your guns shooting too high..."
He asked How I could tell, and I said, "You just shot out the window on your truck." %)

Most of the participants have been stung by a ball bearing more than a few times.
I have seen people line up behind the big ship captains so that if any one gets hit with a large
ball bearing, it will be the guy that fired it.

The worst injury in my club was  caused by a low angle shot that ricochetted off the water, climbed, and
hit one of the captains in the forehead. I stung so badly that he dropped to his knees, and  left one heck of
a welt above his brow.


All of the participants take the good with the bad, and I have bought or sold spare parts at the pond
to keep ships running for the duration of the weekend.
 :-)
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: stephenmorgret on November 16, 2008, 11:39:14 AM
Hello,

   I've been playing for a couple of years with the Western Warship Combat Club (http:www.westernwarshipcombat.com) and I'm the one that designed the MCC-WC mentioned earlier.

   It looks like most of the rules that you have been looking at for Big Gun. There is another set of rules for 1:144 model combat called Fast Gun. This rule set is limited to BBs. As a result, you are likely to be able to use them in the UK, especially if BB guns are already legal.

Stephen Morgret
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 16, 2008, 11:45:16 AM
Many of the sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities. The chances of them permitting anything of this nature are zero. Same would apply to any water in proximity to a public open space or thoroughfare.
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: stephenmorgret on November 17, 2008, 03:23:54 AM
   One the subject of legality, the clubs in Australia had to deal with similar firearm rules to what you have in England. The people there actually had the police forces in each state and territory rule that the cannons and hobby are legal in their jurisdiction and not subject to the Firearms Act (text taken from http://www.ausbg.org/learn_more.html). It would probably be worth talking to them to see exactly how they did it so you can do the same.

Stephen Morgret
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Circlip on November 17, 2008, 08:52:04 AM
Yipeeeeeeeee, time to get the old multiband CB gear out, what fun.   :-))
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 17, 2008, 09:03:00 AM
I don't think it would matter what the police thought although if they were to read Umi's earlier description I could make a pretty good guess! Most sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities and sailing takes place by permission, not as a right. The vast majority of them have already banned IC powered boats on public nuisance grounds so I don't think they would take kindly to a bunch of people shooting missiles at each other's boats whether they fall within the scope of the firearms act or not. Parents with kids feeding the ducks nearby might not be too keen on the idea either.

Having looked at some of the videos I am a little puzzled as to what the attraction of this particular branch of the hobby is. After all, it's hardly as if it is in any way realistic or historically accurate. Basically you've got 20th century semiscale warships fighting using Napoleonic tactics. It seem to me that underlying all this is just a desire to shoot things, in which case why bother to build the boats when you can just take potshots at squirrels instead?   :}

Speaking personally, I think it's far more interesting when an attempt is made to recreate historical naval occasions as is done by the Portsmouth Model Boat Display team. Lots of bangs, smoke and accurately modelled ships sinking but perfectly safe for the large crowds which thoroughly enjoy the show and don't need eye protection!

Colin
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: andyn on November 17, 2008, 05:00:34 PM
That's more what I had in mind (the bottom one) wondered if anyone did those types of boats.

I'm off to see where I can get a few thousand quid for one...

...errmm nan, hi, I want to build a galleon with some pyrotechnics in it, can I borrow some money? Thanks....
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BigGun Rob on November 17, 2008, 09:18:17 PM
Greetings from the other side of the pond! I'm a Big Gun enthusiast, and although some people here may feel that this subject has been covered in full already, I think there's a room for just a little more on it. So, if you will indulge me...

First, on the subject of what the attraction is. Well, it's not just a desire to shoot things. RC warship combat is a team sport (usually Axis vs Allies). The ships are meant to look like the real thing from about 20 feet away, and rather than get into the whole "what is scale, anyway?" debate, let me just say that I personally love detail, and I've researched the Bismarck for 4 years, during my build. He will launch this winter. Not all combat enthusiasts care about scale details that much, but it's becoming more prevalent in my club.

As for realism: It depends on what you mean by realism. Trust me, the subject is very complex. There are two main "flavors" of RC warship combat. One is fought strictly with bbs at gunwale-to-gunwale ranges, and the other is "Big Gun," which uses varying calibers of ammo, and varying thicknesses of armor, depending upon the scale prototype on which the ship is modeled. In some ways, yes - many of the engagements are Napoleonic, broadside-to-broadside, so it's not lobbing shells "over the horizon" as one would ordinarily think of WWII naval combat. On the other hand, there were sea battles in WWII that were fought at such close ranges that battleship main guns could not be brought to bear. Some were fought by searchlight. Some of our skippers are crack shots, and can hit another ship from 5 or 10 meters out, while others need to run in close.

I really think it would be good for you to attend an event and try your hand at the guns, before you judge. I will say that every person I've seen try it has gotten hooked, to one degree or another, and whether that's good or bad, it is a huge amount of fun.

On whether it's legal (or could be legal) in the UK to have RC warship combat events: As Stephen pointed out, the same conditions existed in Australia, prior to the determined efforts of a small group of skippers who wanted to get permission to hold combat events, and now there are more Big Gun captains in Australia than in the United States. By the way, the guns do fire steel balls, but at such a low velocity that rounds bounce off beyond a range of 10 meters yards or so. Compare this with a standard bb gun, and yes - you need eye protection - but you need that whenever small, fast moving objects are in the air. I accidentally shot myself in the arm at point blank range, once, and while it raised two nasty-looking welts that took a couple of days to disappear, the skin was not broken. Model airplane operation - even so-called electric park flyers - is much more dangerous. RC electric speedboat racing is more dangerous by several degrees. With proper safety precautions, this sport is suitable even for young kids. We have a 10-year old and 11 year old in our club, for example. Everone is covered by insurance, including the land and pond owners, just in case.

Finally, about putting on a historical reenactment: Yes, that could be interesting for the performers and the audience, but nothing puckers your butt like the possibility of getting sunk in battle - even if it's only semi-scale toy boats.

So, Colin: Here's a standing invitation to visit our club in California, and try your hand at running a 2-meter long battleship with rotating turrets, loaded for bear. Check our site for an updated 2009 schedule (sometime in the next coupes of weeks): http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com (http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com)

Best regards,


Rob Wood
Western warship Combat Club
San Jose, California, USA
 

I don't think it would matter what the police thought although if they were to read Umi's earlier description I could make a pretty good guess! Most sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities and sailing takes place by permission, not as a right. The vast majority of them have already banned IC powered boats on public nuisance grounds so I don't think they would take kindly to a bunch of people shooting missiles at each other's boats whether they fall within the scope of the firearms act or not. Parents with kids feeding the ducks nearby might not be too keen on the idea either.

Having looked at some of the videos I am a little puzzled as to what the attraction of this particular branch of the hobby is. After all, it's hardly as if it is in any way realistic or historically accurate. Basically you've got 20th century semiscale warships fighting using Napoleonic tactics. It seem to me that underlying all this is just a desire to shoot things, in which case why bother to build the boats when you can just take potshots at squirrels instead?   :}

Speaking personally, I think it's far more interesting when an attempt is made to recreate historical naval occasions as is done by the Portsmouth Model Boat Display team. Lots of bangs, smoke and accurately modelled ships sinking but perfectly safe for the large crowds which thoroughly enjoy the show and don't need eye protection!

Colin

Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 17, 2008, 09:39:31 PM
Quote
So, Colin: Here's a standing invitation to visit our club in California, and try your hand at running a 2-meter long battleship with rotating turrets, loaded for bear. Check our site for an updated 2009 schedule (sometime in the next coupes of weeks): http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain Rob, much appreciated. I can understand the attraction to a degree as I was one of the original founders of the UK Naval Wargames Society back in the late '60s http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/about.html We did have a huge amount of fun reenacting major naval engagements using 1:1200 scale models which are a bit smaller than yours. Although I ceased to participate a long time ago it left me with an abiding interest in Naval history and in the technicalities of warship construction, performance and armament. These days my modelling is confined to merchant vessels however.

Many thanks too for your invitation. The only time I visited the Golden State was in September 2001 at the time of the World Trade Centre tragedy. I stood on the dockside at San Diego watching the US Pacific Fleet putting to sea. And they were most certainly loaded for bear! I'd love to go back but there are a few other places on the world must see list first.

As far as puckering your butt is concerned, being run down by an aircraft carrier when you are in a small sailboat reduces the aperture to microscopic size! Believe me, I've been there!

But welcome to the Forum Rob, there's a place for everyone here and I'm sure that many of our members would indeed like to hear more about your activities although I fear the culture on this side of the pond is likely to rule them out for the foreseeable future.

Colin
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BigGun Rob on November 17, 2008, 10:49:46 PM
Hi Colin,

It's my pleasure to participate, wherever ship modelers congregate! I know that we combat guys inhabit a small corner of the RC scale model ship world, which in turn, occupies its own little corner of the model boating world, which in the big picture of RC modeling, represents a small percentage of all modelers. And I also know that most scale ship modelers think we are absolutely batty - especially if we happen to like scale details. But the truth is, we have more in common with scale ship guys than we do with, say, squirrel hunters.  :D

Our models have to be rugged and absolutely dependable, or we stand a very good chance of getting sunk out of the starting gate, or at the very least, fail to support our teams in their hour of trial. So, we spend a great deal of time researching engineering and waterproofing technologies for electronics, sealing wooden hulls and decks, building small and powerful bilge pumps, searching for and finding great deals on economical and powerful electric propulsion motors, and researching scale plans, drawings and photos of our favorite warships. All of this information I offer to all, if anyone needs any tips along those lines. In the same vein, all of you have similar tips, trick, techniques and resources that we would love to learn about, as well.

So whether or not you modelers in the UK can (or wish to) find a way to indulge in the more aggressive aspects of the warship modeling hobby that I represent, please feel free to explore those aspects of it that may be of use to you. Let's explore the ways we can benefit one another!

By the way, I've just returned from a 34 day road tour of the United States, visiting and photographing the following museum ships:

USS Texas
USS Alabama
USS Laffey
USS North Carolina
USS LST 325 (the last operating LST that's still in its original configuration)

Do you think people in this forum would be interested in seeing any of the photos I took?


Best regards,

Rob
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 17, 2008, 10:59:26 PM
Rob, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people on this Forum that we'd really love to see your pictures of the Museum ships. Preserving our maritime heritage is something we aren't too good at over here and many of us on Mayhem think it's a national scandal. In fact we seem to rely on the US to preserve our ships, Queen Mary and Balaclutha for example.

I toured the Iowa when she visited the UK in the 1980's and it was an unforgettable experience to tread the decks of a real battleship.

You will need to reduce your photos to 152k or 800x600 to be able to post them.

Bring 'em on!

Colin
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BigGun Rob on November 18, 2008, 12:08:56 AM
Rob, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people on this Forum that we'd really love to see your pictures of the Museum ships. Preserving our maritime heritage is something we aren't too good at over here and many of us on Mayhem think it's a national scandal. In fact we seem to rely on the US to preserve our ships, Queen Mary and Balaclutha for example.

I toured the Iowa when she visited the UK in the 1980's and it was an unforgettable experience to tread the decks of a real battleship.

You will need to reduce your photos to 152k or 800x600 to be able to post them.

Bring 'em on!

Colin

My friend and fellow combat enthusiast Ben, builds nothing but British warships. He and I have both lamented the loss of all of those great battleships - Warspite, in particular. If ever a ship deserved to be saved...

I live on the outskirts of San Francisco, and we have our own problems. As I type this, the Iowa is rusting away in Suisun Bay. It doesn't look good that she will be saved, at this point.

But enough of this gloom! Here's a test: USS Texas (BB-35), last and oldest Battleship afloat that served in both WWI and WWII.

Shot on October 14th, 2008.

(http://www.robwood.net/Warships/battleships/Texas/texas-full_IMG_0092.jpg)

You did say either 800 x 600, or 152k, correct?


Rob
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 18, 2008, 08:17:03 AM
Nice picture Rob. The limit is set to around 150k at the moment (although it may have gone up slightly since I last checked) but images of 800x600 should upload OK and reproduce well.

Colin
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: MCAT on November 18, 2008, 02:56:10 PM
Any more pictures like this one would be of great interest to a lot of people. she still looks great

More please  Rob

Mick
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BigGun Rob on November 18, 2008, 03:39:59 PM
I have many more. I wonder if I should start a thread somewhere, and name it "USS Texas"?

I looked at some of the other photos here, and some are 1100 pixels wide (and wider). Here's another experiment: I believe the standard monitor width these days will accommodate an image that is 1004 pixels wide, without the need to scroll horizontally. The bigger the image can be, the more useful it is for modeling purposes. Here's one sized to 1004 wide, 998 high, but optimized for the web:

(http://www.robwood.net/Warships/battleships/Texas/bow-on_IMG_0082.jpg)

Is this OK?

Rob

 
Title: Re: "Model Warship Combat"
Post by: BigGun Rob on November 18, 2008, 03:48:21 PM
Ahh... I see what's happening. The forum settings resize the images to 800 pixels width. Both photos appear to be the same width, even though the second one is 204 pixels wider, in actuality. Conclusion: there's no point in uploading larger images. Unless I'm missing something...?

Last experiment: resized to 800 pixels wide, and optimized in Photoshop for the web:

(http://www.robwood.net/Warships/battleships/Texas/bridge-view_IMG_0285.jpg)


Rob