Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: raflaunches on January 13, 2012, 08:18:26 pm
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Hi everyone
I'm usually a warship or fast launch modeller but I really got interested in the concept of a steam powered sub before nuclear came along.
I have a deans marine hull of the early k class and the John Lambert plans enlarged to the 1/72 (technically 1/76) scale and bought two books on the subject (k boats by Don Evertt and K boat disaster by pen and sword). However I have no clear pictures of the bridge superstructure and the upper deck shape, does any one have any clearer pictures than the pictures currently available on the Internet.
Help please!
Nick B
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Somewhere I have some detailed drawings...give me a couple of days to find them. Remind me if I haven't contacted you by, say...Monday evening.
Rich
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they must have been the unluckiest class of submarine ever built I seem to remember most of them had an unlucky end.hope your model fares better lol Mick
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Nick B: I too have that Deans hull, John Lambert Plans, plus a Caswell dive module that just fits into this long slender hull. It is on hold at the mo’ whilst I finish my HMS Amazon of the same era, plus build up my modelling skills and learn a lot more about building working submarines.
Perhaps my Mayham thread of progress so far, plus helpful suggestions received, may of some help.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29160.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29160.0)
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/K%20Class/subdriverkits.jpg)
Above shows the hull and the kit of parts supplied by Caswell. Dive planes and rudder are M Class, virtually the same.
I have gleaned just about every K Class photo available online, which you are welcome to.
Perhaps we may be able to assist each other.
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A third of the eighteen built were sunk in accidents.
The later M-class which were based on K-class keels had an even worse safety record (in pecentage terms) two thirds of those sank with all hands!
None of these sinkings were a consequence of enemy action. Both classes of boats were really concepts which were ahead of their time, but where the technology was not advanced enough to make the boats reliable and safe.
Today's modern boats incorporate all the features of these early boats- high speed, steam power, the ability to hit land based targets and to launch small aircraft for surveillance. However in place of oil fired boilers we have nuclear power to generate steam, guided missiles instead of big guns and radio controlled drones in place of one man bi-planes.
Hopefully the submarine museum at Gosport can help with images, another port of call would be the National Martime Museum in Greenwich. Doesn't seem to be mcuh reference for these online unfortunately.
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There is a nice K model at Gosport . . .
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/K%20Class/KatGosports.jpg)
However, I am still trying to track down the awesome one that used to be in the IWM at Lambeth. No luck so far!
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However, I am still trying to track down the awesome one that used to be in the IWM at Lambeth. No luck so far!
It is possible that it has been moved to Chatham into the new model storage facility intended to house the IWM and NMM reserve model collections.
Colin
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Note especially the"battle of May island" in the Firth of Forth when the leading submarines in the flotilla which had received the order to turn about were broadside on when they were rammed by the after guard who had not received the order. I wonder what the turning circle of a model will be.
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The originals were said to have "the turning circle of a battlecruiser and the navigation facilities of a picket boat". Little chance of a mixer in this 2.5" diameter dive system, so it should look realistic. they took 4 minutes to shut off and dive.
Below is a sequence I captured from a video showing retrating the funnels. I already have the linkages worked out.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/K%20Class/funnelsequence.jpg)
By far the largest, fastest, and most heavily armed submarines of their day. Sadly it took four decades and many lives lost before their potential could be realised. Today huge 'steam driven' subs are arguably the deterent that makes all other capital warships obselete. Instead of working with the fleet, as the K's were intended, SSBN's have largely replaced such fleets.
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Hi everyone
Thanks for the replies so far, this particular class of sub obviously has more followers than I expected.
Bobk, I would be very grateful for any pictures you have and I'll look through my pictures to see if there are any you don't have. Secondly, I looked through your thread this morning and would like to know if the caswell dive unit is the one used for the revell 1/72 gato class sub or a custom built one for yourself?
U33, I would also be very grateful for any detailed drawings of the k class, and I think Bobk might be interested too if he doesn't have them.
I am intending to build K3, the first K boat to be completed, my first idea was to build either K4 or K6 but I am a bit fed up building models of boats that suffered terrible fates (My HMS Coventry WW2 AA cruiser for example) and wanted something that survived for a while.
I can't remember which book it was described the K class as submersible destroyers because of their fire power and if they had been used correctly could had been devastating to any enemy vessel (seems to be a Royal Navy thing, like the battle cruisers they were used in the incorrect method for which they were not designed to do).
On a final note for the moment, the model from Lambeth is at Chatham museum but you need to book an appointment to view it, another silly idea which I believe was discussed in another thread on this forum.
Thanks so far...
Nick B
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another silly idea which I believe was discussed in another thread on this forum.
Not really, there is simply insufficient space to display models for people on a 'turn up and look' basis. The real problem for us modelmakers is that maritime related museums seem to have gone off the idea of displaying models in their galleries and have packed most of them away into storage. Joe public doesn't find them interesting and prefers interactive displays apparently. The Chatham project is an effort to bring these models back into the public domain for thoise who need to see them but there are still logistical issues due to the sheer number of exhibits so don't knock it unless you think you could have done better.
I attended the formal opening of the Chatham No 1 Smithery and there were a lot of very committed people keen to facilitate access to the models which have until now been kept in storage.
Colin
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Bobk, I would be very grateful for any pictures you have and I'll look through my pictures to see if there are any you don't have. Secondly, I looked through your thread this morning and would like to know if the caswell dive unit is the one used for the revell 1/72 gato class sub or a custom built one for yourself?
Nick B
Nick: If you send me a PM with your email address I would be happy to send you what photoes etc I have. And yes, this is the Caswell Sub Diver developed for the Revel Gato, similar problem - long hull but very slender. I built a simulated tube of the same size to check fit before ordering. It does fit. Just !
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If you want an agile boat, a k-class wouldn't exactly be my first choice. About 15:1 width to length ratio and a single rudder, even the modern missile boats improve on that.
If you want to mix the two screws to assist turning, you can get some very small dual controllers which have mixing built in, they use them for ant weight robotics amongst other things.
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/Sabertooth2X5.htm
Not cheap, but their stuff is pretty well made. How much will it help on a boat like a K-class though, I wonder? The two props are very close together.
You could extend rudder area and/or incorporate a bow thruster (will only work if the boat is stationary), or even try an additional bow mounted rudder.
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Hi everyone
Once again thanks for the replies so far, it's been very helpful.
I want to apologise to Colin Bishop for the misunderstanding I didn't have time on my last post to read through it properly. I did not mean that it was a silly idea regarding the smithy at Chatham. What I meant to say was that it silly to have all that space in the smithy but only have a few models available for viewing. I know exactly what you mean regarding the public not being interested in models anymore it just seems a shame to have that vast collection in storage, just wanted to apologise for the my typing skills when I am in a rush.
Bobk, I'll pm you shortly regarding the pictures etc.
Subculture, thanks for the advice I'll check the website you recommended.
Thank you
Nick B
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No offence taken Nick. I'm hoping to do a follow up report for Model Boats later this year on facilities for viewing. We would all like to see more models on general display but then it would become a museum which was never the intention. I imagine thay have some sort of system whereby the models are stored close together to maximise use of the available space and they can then bring individual ones forward for viewing which is why an appointment is necessary.
When you think of all the models that used to be on display in the NMM and IWM and take into account the fact that even these were only a proportion of the total number held in the collections you begin to see the scale (sic) of the problem.
Colin
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Hi everyone,
As you might have read in the CMB project thread in the warship section the prop shafts have arrived from Prop Shop after being rudely thrown through our letterbox yesterday morning by the postman! Any way the shafts are okay and to the credit of prop shop's packaging survived the impact with the hall door!
The shafts are 18inches long and are 2mm in diameter with only 5inches being exposed. Cut out the holes for the shafts last night making sure to get them level this time... (poor old Coventry :embarrassed:).
I have cut the upper hull into three sections for ease of fitment and access, the forward section has already been attached to the lower hull and copious amounts of filler was used to blend it in. After studying the plans I have discovered that the superstructure moulded in to the rear upper hull section is too long, wide and high, so I have cut the offending bits off and will fill them in later in the build. I have tacked the port shaft in to place and waiting for the glue to dry before I start to fibreglass them in permanently.
(http://s13.postimage.org/7ocpyl837/P1300082.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7ocpyl837/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/etvqsxjdd/P1300083.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/etvqsxjdd/)
(http://s9.postimage.org/5cf73u5aj/P1300084.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5cf73u5aj/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/cy0ot1dml/P1300085.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cy0ot1dml/)
(http://s13.postimage.org/e8taa5q9f/P1300086.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e8taa5q9f/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/o8on9fihn/P1300088.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/o8on9fihn/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/tkmufuvy5/P1300090.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tkmufuvy5/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/e7fo5qwyt/P1300091.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e7fo5qwyt/)
Regards,
Nick B
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I shall be following your build with great interest Nick, as when I have completed my 1906 destroyer the K sub will be moved back onto the slipway. I agree the hull does create a few challenges, like the top section fit and 1/76 "scale". I too was intending to cut out and replace the aft superstructure for the same reason. I will take tips based on how you do it. I have a Caswell dive module for mine so need the full length of the upper hull to fit it in. Best wishes for your build. :-))
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You can consider a 'z-cut'. You don't see many boats with this style of hull break, but quite a few modellers do it in the states. The nice thing with this method, is that if keeps the bow in one piece, which hides the hull separation nicely.
(http://s15.postimage.org/i3zugtf87/P1300086.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/i3zugtf87/)
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Bobk thanks for the continued support, I'll try my best to do the K class proud and provide pictures of the built as I progress.
Subculture that's an interesting method of separating the hull, something I would not have thought of.
For the moment I have decided to keep the hull intact and intend to complete the model as a surface runner, because like Bobk I would like to have retracting funnels if I made it dive able and have smoke/steam poring from the funnels as it shows in the film footage on the Internet.
Once I have stuck the prop shafts in I intend to start building the 'Skeg' which supports the rudder post and the prop shaft A brackets.
Nick B
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M1 U cut :-))
(http://s16.postimage.org/nittma7pd/IMG_20120115_00044.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nittma7pd/)
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That like a polyester cast hull. What happened to the epoxy glass hull that Dave was laying up?
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That like a polyester cast hull. What happened to the epoxy glass hull that Dave was laying up?
This was the original trial hull, that didn't come out as good as it could have been, was mine for a song, so hey ho
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Nick: I still intend to having retracting funnels, but not smoke as mine will be a static diver.
The hull split looks interesting, although ideally I would prefer to retain all control surfaces in the lower hull. One of the challenges for subs is reducing the amount of dissasembly for battery charging, even switching on and off. When it's all working the less you disturb the better.
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This was the original trial hull, that didn't come out as good as it could have been, was mine for a song, so hey ho
It's got all the makings of a nice model, just looked different to what I expected.
Regarding smoking stacks, there are the watter fogger devices. These tend to be a little chunky to fit in a model the size you're constructing, but perhaps they could be shrunk down. They use piezo transducers, which is fed with a fairly high frequency I believe, and that turns the water into a vapour that resembles smoke.
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Nick: I still intend to having retracting funnels, but not smoke as mine will be a static diver.
The hull split looks interesting, although ideally I would prefer to retain all control surfaces in the lower hull. One of the challenges for subs is reducing the amount of dissasembly for battery charging, even switching on and off. When it's all working the less you disturb the better.
My forward vertical cut is just ahead of the bow planes, so either Z cut or U cut works and keeps all controls in lower hull
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Hi Bobk
The intention at the moment to built a water tight section similar to your caswell dive unit in the centre of the hull and have the outer sections open to water. So if I wanted to adapt the model to a dive able condition I could change the internal layout to suit a static diver.
I am being a bit of a cheap scate at the moment because I am saving up to restore my old MG ZA Magnette so once the money has been saved I will adapt the hull to become a proper sub!
The centre section will be made removable with a clear plastic sheet to act as a seal to the watertight compartment with all the relevant shafts and servo arms going to the hydroplanes, rudder and drive shafts built in place so when the time comes I just attach them up, fingers crossed :-)).
Hope the M class hull turns out okay for you subculture.
Nick B
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It's Albion who is building the M class, Nick.
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Apologies, not reading the posts properly again %%
Albion, hope your m class turns out okay.
I think I got the right person this time, thanks for pointing that out for me subculture!
Regards
Nick B
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Sounds interesting Nick, I very much look forward to seeing how she progresses. Although I have to say the Caswell Sub Diver unit is good value, and for me reduces some of the higher risk aspects - hopefully 8)
You Albion and I are going to have to get these boats together one day. Anywhere but May Island of course %%
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You Albion and I are going to have to get these boats together one day. Anywhere but May Island of course %%
that would be good, in the M class reference book i have there's shot showing an M class with a bunch of K's :)
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Anyone got photos showing the sail , especially inside the cockpit area
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Hi everyone,
I have fitted the prop shafts, level this time :embarrassed: , the fore and aft hydroplane support tubes, and the rudder post.
I was going to build the 'skeg' but I remembered just in time to fit the rudder post before doing so, the prop shafts have been fibreglassed and blended in to the hull. I have been looking at the pictures of the class and realised that the propeller 'A' bracket is built in to the skeg too so a re-plan is required before construction commences.
The entire hull has been sanded down and holes filled to remove any blemishes ready for the detail work, i.e the torpedo doors and anchor hawsers, etc.
(http://s16.postimage.org/68nrhd9e9/P2070105.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/68nrhd9e9/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/wafon5x3v/P2070107.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wafon5x3v/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/gzyczr5yd/P2070108.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/gzyczr5yd/)
Try to get the rest of the pictures loaded up soon, the software for uploading them is having a hissy fit at the moment
Nick B
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Hi everyone,
It appears to be simple turn off and back on again job with the computer ok2, I think though, that it was the threatening behavior I made towards the computer that made it work <*<, airframe riggers with hammers and all that :D
Here are the pictures promised...
(http://s14.postimage.org/7od85jr99/P2070109.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7od85jr99/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/n65bmzn3x/P2070110.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/n65bmzn3x/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/iv7tp27k7/P2070111.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/iv7tp27k7/)
Regards
Nick B
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Albion,
Is this what you need?
(http://s17.postimage.org/5bvkx3izf/Img_1276.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/5bvkx3izf/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/51o2dr4d7/K22_02.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/51o2dr4d7/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/7ddosdnev/stevesk14.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7ddosdnev/)
Thanks to Bobk for the pictures he sent me a few weeks back, hope this helps.
Nick B
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I think Albion is after some M-class shots (that what he is building).
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Albion
Second time lucky are these any help?
(http://s13.postimage.org/kkj99jcfn/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kkj99jcfn/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/neu64t235/m1c.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/neu64t235/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/f1uhxjjl1/m1mpl2315.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f1uhxjjl1/)
Regards
Nick B
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Might be worth contacting Periscope Publishing. This was started by Innes McCartney who discovered the wreck of the M1, so he may be able to help with additional reference, and probably knows most if not all the reference material that is out there for this boat.
http://www.periscopepublishing.com/
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Albion: I have an M1 gun barrel, resin cast, supplied by Caswell with the diving planes and rudder for my K. I would be happy to post it to you if you could PM me your details. I have warm memories of my visit to Singapore, so unique.
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Albion: I have an M1 gun barrel, resin cast, supplied by Caswell with the diving planes and rudder for my K. I would be happy to post it to you if you could PM me your details. I have warm memories of my visit to Singapore, so unique.
i have same package as you, so have a gun already
thanks for the M photos, im working on the drawings and comparing to photos, and there seems to have been some varying designs to the cockpit area. i m not being too "xxxxx" about it but dont want to build it and find i have a complete miss match. i even suspect that the museum model may have some artistic licence to it!
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Hi everyone
As Subculture recommended I recently purchased a copy of British Submarines 1901-1955 by P Ackerman. I was a bit dubious first after reading some of the reviews about the book on amazon. However where the contents page and index page are much to be desired, the content of the book is excellent, more info was found in here than searching through internet! (Ok I exaggerate but its that interesting).
Whilst there are few pictures, maybe one of each class, the extra info regarding the Submarine Depot ships is worth putting up with reading text that looks like a typewriter has written it! Particularly the info about the first HMS Adamant of WW1 vintage, I bought the plans last year from NMM for the Adamant because of one picture I found in a book and now I have some info about her movements and why she was built. :-))
The book costs approx £35.99 but it is worth it, it has over 550 pages and some very good side profiles of the subs all in a constant scale so you can gauge the sizes of the vessels.
Tonight I will be cutting out the torpedo doors for my K class and a few other hull details before making the rudder/prop support bracket 'skeg' thingy wosit!
Regards
Nick B
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I don't recall recommending any book specifically. I do know that book can be previewed extensively on google books for free.
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Hi Subculture
I meant to say that the website periscope publishing you recommended is where I found the book an Encyclopedia of British Submarines 1901 to 1955. Sorry for any confusion.
Regards
Nick B
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Hi Nick,
Have you seen this bit of film footage? I was amazed to come across it. You will have to look through the whole thing and I think there is even an R class lurking there somewhere!
http://www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com/t254-between-the-wars-m1-k-class-r-class-h-class?highlight=M+CLASS
David
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Sorry Nick a direct link for you.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/naval-material-reel-5
(I didn't realise that you needed to register on the AMS forum for links to work!)
David
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Hi David
Thanks for the link, I will be watching it on Friday because my iPad won't run British pathe videos, or to that fact not many videos at all to be honest! Any thing about k boats is interesting especially actual footage.
Thank you.
Regards
Nick B
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Here's a clip of a K-class doing a rate of knots, although only one boiler lit if the single smoking funnel is anything to go by- http://www.britishpathe.com/video/submarine-disaster/
Looks like that sailor was lucky not to get washed overboard!
Another one-
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/k-class-submarine
And another, this one could easily be missed, but shows some good close-ups of K9 in dry dock, and the funnels folding-
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/japanese-naval-delegates
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Now that last clip is a Star Gem ! I will shortly be restarting my long delayed K9, and that video showed detail in better clarity then other clips I have downloaded. Thank you Subculture: :-))
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There's all sorts of stuff on that site. Just type in 'submarine' on the search box and up pops several pages worth. Some nice clips of the later x-craft, our early nuke boats, even a brief clip of what looks like Holland SS1- the U.S boat not the British Holland 1- unfortunately it was out of the water.
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With HMS Amazon having moved off the main slipway ready for initial sea trials tomorrow K9 is now set up ready for construction to recommence. It has been on hold since October, partly whilst trying to solve some basic sub specific technical problems, and also to gain more model making experience building the destroyer.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/K%20Class/kbuild1.jpg)
K9 is now my priority build project underway. I will probably continue my existing build thread so as not to confuse things, but will cross refer here where Nick Albion and myself can help each other by getting our heads together and share experiences.
For my “To build a K Class submarine” thread see . . .
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29160.50
Bob K
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Hi everyone
No pictures this week as I have been busy once again, hopefully next week I will upload some more.
I have been studying the plans though and decided on a few mods to my original ideas about the hydroplanes, my original idea was to build them from plastic card because they were not going to work at this moment in time, but after looking at the dimensions of them I thought it would be wiser to make them from brass, don't want them to snap off too easy- my steering and the boat's is not super brilliant and accidents can happen!l (hopefully not too many references to the Battle of May Island made :embarrassed:)
Bobk mentioned to me that he got his 4inch, 3inch guns and dive planes (from a M-class sub) from the Caswell dive units website but for all my effort I can not find them on the website. Are they no longer available or am I looking in the wrong place? I would be very grateful for any help.
Regards
Nick B
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Hi Nick B
My additional parts from Caswell were the front and rear dive planes, rudder, and a twelve inch gun barrel as these were created for the M Class. Not 3" or 4" guns - sorry. The M Class were essentially the final batch of K's laid down but converted to even more bizarre roles as the K's predilection for mishaps and calamity 'sunk' in. M1 as a submersible monitor, M2 a submarine aircraft carrier, and M3 an underwater minelayer. The rudder and planes were effectively the same.
Nicely made cast resin parts with brass rods etc, but I would suggest you think about a carrying frame with 'boxes' to protect the rear, front, and superstructure for transport. I guess the same for most historic subs. The K & M front planes retracted inwards into the hull, but I am being advised not to replicate that. It was just a thought to help protect them for transit and mooring. Best to contact Caswell direct for these.
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Hi Bobk
Thanks for confirming about the 3 and 4 inch guns, thought I was going mad %% trying to find non-existent fittings from Caswell.
I see what you mean about the forward planes retracting in, I had only enlarged one part of John Lambert's plan to full size so I forgot about this!
That's a good idea about transporting the model, don't want a repeat of the Coventry accident at the Dean's Marine open day last year!
Took the hull to work this week to continue working on it at night, no pictures at the moment but I have made the starboard torpedo bay doors from 0.25mm plastic card and glued them to the hull. The mechanisms used to open them on the real boat were replicated from 1mm square plastic strut. Then I gave a coat of primer to see if there was any blemishes, there was a couple which I blended out with a bit of wet and dry sandpaper.
Whilst I was waiting for the primer to dry, I decided to cut out the superstructure deck layout onto a piece of 1mm plastic card and laid it on to the hull, luckily it fits (just) on to the removable centre section.
Hopefully I will upload some pictures next week.
Regards
Nick B
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Sounds like some good progress being made Nick. I look forward to seeing some photos when you are able :-))
I am focusing on building the sub driver first, then interfacing it with the hull. Hats off to Caswell on fast response. I ordered four pairs of magnetic couplings on Monday evening (GMT) and they arrived yesterday. Suggest you contact them for the K/M dive planes and rudders.