Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Brian_C on January 14, 2012, 10:36:40 am
Title: Costa Concordia
Post by: Brian_C on January 14, 2012, 10:36:40 am
CRUISELINER COSTA CONCORDIA HITS A REEF THEN SINKS
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on January 14, 2012, 10:40:30 am
Although sad for the fatalities, it makes one wonder if the Captain had evacuated the boat before making for the Island, how many more there may have been.
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 14, 2012, 10:44:53 am
Having just checked Google earth it would appear there has been a very big navigational error - the main route from Cittavechia to the North western Med would usually be to the west of the Island of Giglio yet it managed to be several miles to the east and it looks as though it hit a reef near to the town of Giglio which is on the east side of the island . I know any loss of life is tragic for the families concerned but it could have been far far worse. Unless there are mitigating circumstances there are going to be some ships officers heading for court then unemployment or worse.
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 10:50:36 am
These large ships are supposed to be designed so that if the hull is breached they will settle on an even keel, something seems to have gone catastrophically wrong here. Unless the ship has grounded on a sloping underwater obstruction. causing it to keel over as it took on water, then a lot of naval architects are going to have to go back to the drawing board.
In recent years there has been much speculation as to what might happen if one of these giant vessels had to be evacuated - now they know!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Brian_C on January 14, 2012, 10:51:58 am
HERES THE REEF SHE HIT 8 DEAD MANY MORE BADLY INJURED
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: The long Build on January 14, 2012, 11:25:55 am
I assume that these Multi Million Pound Ships are all fitted with state of the art sounding systems and that the reef / sand bar was a known obstical so how did they come to hit it in the first place ?..
Also would you be able to raise a ship like this ?.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on January 14, 2012, 11:30:19 am
Quote
In recent years there has been much speculation as to what might happen if one of these giant vessels had to be evacuated - now they know!
Strange how we don't learn from history, 100 years ago . . . . . . . .
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 14, 2012, 11:35:11 am
Most common faults on these chart plotters is wrongly set coordinates for the waypoints - can't imagine thats the case here as this is one of their set routes so the waypoints would already have been in the plotter. Sometimes it is posssible to miss a waypoint out of your passage plan so it would then alter the ships heading towards the next waypoint i.e. might cut a corner with disasterous results. Always possible this is a malfunction in the nav system but a 115000 ton ship licensed for passenger carrying would have more than one system. Not much use speculating at this time - it will either be announced at a press conference or will come out at the enquiry
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 11:56:14 am
The pictures appear to show massive damage to the hull on the port side yet the vessel capsized to starboard. Some interesting food for thought there.
Despite the difficulties all the port side boats appear to have all been launched and if the casualty list is 'only' three dead then the crew didn't do too badly at all with 3,000 passengers to evacuate. Something to give thanks for anyway.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 14, 2012, 12:48:02 pm
Hello
Hopefully it's happen very close to civilized place with a village some hundred meters away as many people swim to escape. It's appeared that because of the list, when the rescue boat where launch the cables where too short and people have to jump to the water ... Actually there is 3 dead people but 70 still missing !
I start my career as naval architect working on the cruise ship Sovereign of the Seas in the Chantier de l'Atlantique, then when I was in Navy I was trained for damage control , so I have a close idea of the situation. I'm really worried about accident at sea with so big ship, critical stability after dammage, so many unprepared people, with a lot of elderly and some time kids, so many inside corridors just like labyrinth.
Anyway I cross my finger for mistake in calculation instead of real missing people
Xtian
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 12:54:09 pm
Look at the size of this rock! Cycle through the photos.
The pictures appear to show massive damage to the hull on the port side yet the vessel capsized to starboard. Some interesting food for thought there.
It looks to me as if the ship holed itself on the top of an underwater reef, then slid down the side of it, toppling away from the reef into the deeper water. An earlier post indicated that its position will correspond with the shape of the sea bed...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: TugCowboy on January 14, 2012, 01:16:24 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 01:20:15 pm
Quote
It looks to me as if the ship holed itself on the top of an underwater reef, then slid down the side of it, toppling away from the reef into the deeper water. An earlier post indicated that its position will correspond with the shape of the sea bed...
It does rather look like that but reports are suggesting that the ship initially hit a 'sandbank' and was subsequently steered to its present position which certainly does seem to be on the rocks. maybe it went aground twice? But usually if you hit a sandbank the damage is relatively minimal and more embarrasing than dangerous.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 14, 2012, 03:35:07 pm
Is that a rock still embedded?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 14, 2012, 03:45:37 pm
More photos.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16560050 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16560050)
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 03:49:26 pm
Yes its also about the size of a 14 seat bus , must be at least 100-120 tonnes in weight , the hole on the port bilge is at least 100 to 120 feet in length and as she settled to starboard we can only think that her starboard side is in a much much worse state. (http://daylife.sky.com/imageserve/0ciN5HUgVg1Er/650x500.jpg) the liferaft you can see will be a 60 man sized raft so around 4m diameter I think
Apparently the captain after hitting the reef instead of getting everyone off ASAP decided to try and make for port , surely in a situation like this anyone with any experience of command would get ALL passengers and crew off leaving only a skeleton crew aboard to try and save the ship.
I'm afraid that my feelings on these ships has been reinforced by this incident , there was another large cruise ship that sank at a Greek island a few years ago in the anchorage after clipping the rocks again with loss of life , these 2 incidents means to me that these types of ships cannot be considered safe. Shipping containers are washed overboard from container ships on a regular basis and quite a few don't sink , now take this situation , ship of this type at 110,000t + deadweight doing 20-24 knots hits a container ripping open the hull mid Atlantic ( doesn't need to be a huge hole to cause serious flooding ) well out beyond any helicopter or inshore rescue ships in a F6-F7 , the loss of life would be far far worse than the Titanic
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 14, 2012, 04:38:46 pm
How do they go about salvaging something like this?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 05:21:29 pm
Quote
How do they go about salvaging something like this?
Basically they have to seal up all the openings below the water and then pump her out, there is a precedent with the old Normandie of about the same size which capsized in New York during the war after a fire but in this case there is clearly massive damage to the hull to be dealt with as well. On the port side they would probably build a coffer dam but obviously we don't know how far the damage extends below the ship and across to the starboard side. It also depends on how many watertight compartments were ruptured - several by the look of it.
Although the Med is essentially a tideless sea it can still blow up pretty rough during the winter so they won't want to waste any time getting started.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 05:43:00 pm
she's probably torn wide open along the keel Colin so I can't see anyway to get her upright and floating again , her size works against salvage as well being 950ft and 114,500t
I can see them having no choice but cutting her up where she lies until they can get the hull down to the waterline , pull her over , cut her into 5,000t sections and lift with a crane barge , probably take the best part of a year to scrap her going by how long it took them to chop up that container ship that went ashore in the channel a couple of years ago and she was upright !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 05:52:33 pm
Quite possibly Davie, but they will obviously evaluate the extent of the damage first. It's interesting that the damage is amidships and apparently not at the bows as you might expect. Still a lot of questions to be answered. For example there does't appear to be any obvious major oil spill at present and presumably her tanks would be in the double bottom.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 14, 2012, 05:52:58 pm
To my mind the worrying thing is that because of the list it was not possible to launch all the life boats. Who on earth designs a system that fails if the boat keels over? Some boats can be seen hanging down the side of the boat. Shades of the Titanic? What if this vessal had not been so close to the shore, and rescue boats not at hand? Rip those who did die. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 05:55:55 pm
It looks like the tanks are still intact so far Colin but she must be holed starboard side as well , the lifeboat launching system is just not designed to work against gravity John they have to be able to deploy unpowered so rely on gravity to pull them out of their holding berths once you get to more than about 5 degree's of list on a boat of this design they obviously don't deploy so they need redesigned urgently
Just found the links to the cruise ship that sunk at Santorini Greece in April 2007 with the loss of a man and his daughter
If people can be killed in flat calm conditions this close to shore then these ships must have a very very serious doubt cast over them as a safe mode of passage , they are all far far to high out of the water compared to their draft , they all need active stabalising fins and if they loose power they roll very very heavily
Who on earth designs a system that fails if the boat keels over? Some boats can be seen hanging down the side of the boat.
I agree there but what is the alternative? enough inflatable's for all PAX down each side of the boat? I've always wondered what the best system would be. I'd much rather (I think) the option of a more rigid escape vessel down just one side, than a whole compliment of just inflatable rafts....although in an emergency I'd probably care a little less ;)
Alex
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Welsh Wizard on January 14, 2012, 05:57:35 pm
And the Fiance wondered why I wont go on a ruddy cruse liner NOW she KNOWS
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 06:09:14 pm
I think there has to be a redesign of the outhaul for the davits for the boats , perhaps an emergency HP air system ( bottles permanently attached in a box beside the davits ) that can be used to force the boat out over the side so they can at least get it into the water
As for these ships in general , well I would never have set foot on one before now and never ever would even if I could afford to. I consider them to be death traps of seriously poor design. Most have huge shopping spaces up to 6 decks high without any transverse bulkhead to prevent catastrophic flooding or to help prevent rapid spread of fire , no I think ships like these should be banned from the sea before we see a huge disaster
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 14, 2012, 06:21:24 pm
Quote
Some boats can be seen hanging down the side of the boat
Just liferafts I think. All the port side boats seem to have got away. On modern cruise ships the boats are carried relatively low on the hull to enable them to cope with a degree of listing. maybe the problem was the starboard side where the degree of sinkage, coupled with the list, brought the embarkation deck rapidly into the sea, which is why people apparently jumped over the side. As said previously, these ships do not feature longitudinal bulkheads to try and ensure that the ship settles on an even keel if the hull is breached. The design should give adequate stability and will have been extensively tank tested so it is extraordinary that the ship capsized unless, as suggested above, it was perched on the side of a reef and as it sank it just rolled over as the port side was supported anbd the starboard side not. The fact that it didn't keel right over for some hours suggests this might be the case. In these situations Sod's law applies with a vengeance, if it can go wrong, it will!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dave301bounty on January 14, 2012, 07:47:41 pm
in someones pics they have put on here ,,there is a few ,and one in particular brings a theme to mind ,,the pic were the ship is near the rocks ,two guys are lookin, at it what are the saying ? ? get the builder ,,,who designed this are we insured ,,,
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 08:04:07 pm
The Captain abandoned ship at 2300 when passengers were still being pulled off her at 0300 , he's under arrest for abandoning ship whilst passengers were still in danger and for manslaughter , the 1st officer has also been arrested
that just on SKY news just now
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 14, 2012, 08:34:17 pm
All davits must works without ship power, if they are not gravity one they use charged pneumatic bottles - Following the comment from a french passagers who was close to maritime as he was talking with right maritime words : because of the list the davit cables where too short and the life boat stopped some meters over the water, passager have to jump !! {:-{ something wrong !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 14, 2012, 08:48:52 pm
Pre-emting the causes of this disaster is wrong....although I can appreciate why. My main causes for concern is the fact that she was a new (and very large) ship. Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to prevent such a catastrophe ever happening. I'm in accord with Xtian here, we both have knowledge of damage control...but this event seems to go against what would be expected. Ship lying on one side with the damaged side above water. Rather an odd situation. You'd expect it to be the other way around. But all of that will come out in whatever process of law occurs. So no more speculation. What does concern me is the notion that 4,000 plus people on board one ship can ever be really secure. I spent many years as a seaman officer triying to train non-seamen crew members in emergency procedures...many fell on deaf ears. In fact it was all treated as a bit of a joke by some. You only have to look at the rapidity of abandonment and the almost instantaneous sending out of distress calls to realise that many crews havn't got a clue about "getting to grips " with a problem. I think this can, in extremis, apply to modern passenger ships also. BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on January 14, 2012, 09:08:28 pm
On my last course at Warsash Maritime College I got quite pally with a Chief Officer on 1 of these large floating "hotels". His main concern about any emergency situation was the crew training and possible actions in a real emergency. On his ship he had 50+ different languages and strong dialects IN THE CREW. Some only had a very basic grasp of English, (the expected language on any vessel for international communication), sailing with vast majority of English speaking passengers.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: CF-FZG on January 14, 2012, 09:14:06 pm
While the loss of life is sad, considering the huge number of self confessed maritime professionals on here, I'm amazed at some of the posts in this thread.
I mean, take the following quote;
Quote
Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to prevent such a catastrophe ever happening.
Now by changing it slightly, it will make so much more sense, (well it does to me).
Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to reduce the chance of such a catastrophe ever happening to be within acceptable limits.
but I suppose to many, that change will seem frivolous - you know the 'no single death is ever accaeptable' brigade, when in reality you can never make anything 100% safe all of the time.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 09:34:26 pm
latest on news is that she was 4 miles off course , the captain took a short cut which he thought was safe but all the locals say that there was no way for a ship of that size to go over the rocks in the area he steamed through , it wasn't a sandbank she hit but an outcrop of rock
I'd think the starboard side is damaged a lot worse than the port side but we won't know for sure until they get her upright again , that has to be the only reason for her settling and going over on her starboard side as far as I can figure out.
Any ship will sink if you ram it onto rocks at 22 knots , doubt even a battleship would survive the damage that would inflict if it ripped out the bilge both sides
I think the main lesson to be learned from this is that these ships should have a minimum distance off rocks and a minimum depth of water under the keel at all times with a clear navigation plan before sailing , its been very poor planning and navigation thats led to this disaster along with the decision not to immediately evacuate the ship as soon as this happened
I guess the IMO ( International Maritime Organisation ) needs to have a good look at crew training again and it might be the time to look at international standards for masters of these ships once more maybe insisting on more simulator time for training and testing once qualified and throughout the time a master holds a certificate of competence in the same manner that airline pilots have to have regular checks
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 14, 2012, 10:01:32 pm
Some 'expert' on one new channels says that air crew have to have 28 days safety training.... cruise ships crew only need 4 days... by law!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 14, 2012, 10:12:01 pm
Do cruise ships have and should use any form of sonar. Does or could a sonar unit give enough warning of undersea rocks and shallowing water? The sonar would need to look ahead by i assume at least one and a half miles to allow vessal to stop. As said does this gear exist do passenger boats have it? Please let me know your thoughts .Thanks.John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 14, 2012, 10:34:01 pm
sonars pretty well useless at 22 knots john it only really works below 14 knots and best below 10 knots , whats needed is a proper navigation plan double checked to make sure its safe for water depth , a wide enough channel if close to coast and a nav plan for the speed they wish to go at , whats perfectly safe at 12 knots could well be seriously unsafe at 22 knots
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 14, 2012, 10:37:38 pm
John S - A sonar in this situation would be useless..........the bridge officers have charts for the areas they sail through - they only need to look at them to see the depth available. They know the draft of their vessel, they know it is an essentailly tideless see, therefore it would be simple mathematics to calculate the safe depth of water to navigate in.
Pure incompetence on the part of A) the Master (as he has overall command) and B) the First and Second Officers (as they are the primary navigating officers).
BTW - on one of the pictures on the Italian newspaper website it clearly shows the vessel's starbord side lying on the rocks - it would seem that these prevented her from turning turtle competely.
Being 4 miles 'off course' is down to the Master's decision............a very poor one as it turns out.
An unneccessary tragedy........................my sympathies for those affected........... Carl
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 14, 2012, 10:38:09 pm
Thanks Davie. Im learning all the time.John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 14, 2012, 11:03:48 pm
There has been mention of a 'catastrophic' electrical failure. These are called Electric Boats. No power and you are at the mercy of wind and tide. The tonnage of 110,000 tons is Gross Tonnage and the ship is probably around 70,000 tons displacement, still big though! If I remember correctly the next ship out of this yard (Fincantiere) was the Queen Victoria, although Cunard, these two cruise ship companies are owned by the same company. Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 14, 2012, 11:08:24 pm
Sorry Roy - I dont buy it.. {:-{
The boat is reported as 4 miles off its planned route - if it had a catasrophic electrical failure of such a magnitude to disable the propulsion and navigation of the ship, then the Master had ample time to firstly put out a distress call and secondly drop the anchors (by gravity) to hold the ship in a safe position until help arrived.......before wind and tide (of which there is little) took her onto the rocks...
C
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 14, 2012, 11:34:44 pm
The comment from the french man (looks to be familiar with maritime) said that the first thing was the big noise with everything falling down like crash stop then the electrical failure (certainely engine room flooding) then the electrical came back (certainely emergency power unit)
The first message from captain to the passagers and crew said : "technical problem ... stay calm" then the ship came with list, more and more and then the order for evacuation came. The French guy said that at this time (for him) it was already too late for using the lifeboat on his side because of ship list - He said that from now (saved and on ground) he's thinking that it was a captain fault with wasted time prior to evacuate. He said that it was horrific as a full chaos many people don't have life jacket etc...
About language, the main problem was that a majority of passager where Italian and lot of French (around 15%) and most of the seamen where philippinos speaking english...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pettyofficernick on January 14, 2012, 11:38:03 pm
It appears the Master and First Officer have been arrested by the Italian authorities on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter and for abandoning ship before the vessel had been evacuated. Not, by any stretch of the imagination the 'done thing'.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 15, 2012, 12:25:46 am
John S asked about Sonar and was shot down - but yes all ships have Sonar its called echo or depth sounders and there are hundreds on the market that are forward looking echo sounders - I had one on my boat - cost about £1000 but now cheaper - looked about 200 metres ahead ( quite sufficient for a 7 knot sailing yacht ALL echo sounders have a depth (minimum and maximum depths) which are set to the operators requirements. A ship like this would have had more than one and it would probably the best on the market costing thousands. The mediterranean is interesting in places - off the Greek Islands in places you can be 25 yards from the shore and be in hundreds of feet of water - as most of the small islands off Italy are of volcanic origin the bottom will rise very quickly in places so action would have to be taken instantly if the shallow water alarm sounded. Either the alarm was not set or action was not taken in time
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: The long Build on January 15, 2012, 01:00:14 am
Would they have been douing over 22 knots ?.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 15, 2012, 01:16:26 am
The service speed for this vessel is 21.5 knots with a maximum of 23 knots unlike the Italy/Greece ferries which have service speeds of between 27 and 31.5 knots so she wasn't all that fast
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Dreadstar on January 15, 2012, 06:24:24 am
It's still fast enough,that when an immovable object is spotted,that it's way too late to take avoiding action,that's assuming that the said object was even seen. <:(
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 15, 2012, 11:03:56 am
Good to hear that they have rescued two more people and are in contact with a third. If you are trapped in your cabin as the ship goes over on its side then you are in a very bad situation indeed. The lower side will flood but even if the upper side is still above water you will find yourself, together with all the loose furniture and other items piled up against the door which is inward opening and with a window or porthole way above your head which you have little chance of reaching. Should you manage to get the door open then there is a four foot drop to the other corridor wall. You would then have to negotiate your way along a darkened passage way with a succession of inward opening doors, each of which would be a potential death trap. Absolute nightmare!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Brian_C on January 15, 2012, 11:51:49 am
Should you manage to get the door open then there is a four foot drop to the other corridor wall. You would then have to negotiate your way along a darkened passage way with a succession of inward opening doors, each of which would be a potential death trap. Absolute nightmare!
Colin [/quote]
hi Colin, Ive just mentally tried to put myself in that situation on the last ship i sailed on for two years, even knowing the ship gives you little help on trying to reach somewhere safe plus its total darkness and your right, every door is a potential death trap, you would have a min 6ft drop onto all types of cabin furniture, chair legs tables broken glass etc etc, these passengers would have no knowledge at all of the way out,,, just total fear for their lives of whats just in front of them, all they have is feel and touch, in an environment unknown to them, TOTAL HELL is what i think, the pic below shows what your up against
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: killick on January 15, 2012, 03:08:20 pm
Someone on another Forum drew comparisons with the Exxon Valdez Disaster. Wasn't the real damage in that case done by the crews' attempts to get the Valdez OFF the rocks she'd grounded on?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 15, 2012, 04:15:56 pm
John S asked about Sonar and was shot down - but yes all ships have Sonar its called echo or depth sounders and there are hundreds on the market that are forward looking echo sounders - I had one on my boat - cost about £1000 but now cheaper - looked about 200 metres ahead ( quite sufficient for a 7 knot sailing yacht ALL echo sounders have a depth (minimum and maximum depths) which are set to the operators requirements. A ship like this would have had more than one and it would probably the best on the market costing thousands. The mediterranean is interesting in places - off the Greek Islands in places you can be 25 yards from the shore and be in hundreds of feet of water - as most of the small islands off Italy are of volcanic origin the bottom will rise very quickly in places so action would have to be taken instantly if the shallow water alarm sounded. Either the alarm was not set or action was not taken in time
Geoff
Sorry Geoff but the information John got was hardly being shot down , as for a sailing boat at 7 knots well a sonar will work all the time but on any ship doing more than 12 to 14 knots there is a lot of aerated water ( basically when the bow cuts through the sea it causes a lot of bubbles to go into the sea ) that flow under the hull , this seriously degrades sonar to the point at about 16 knots that its basically not worth having it on as the sonar will not give accurate readings if it gives any readings at all.
The big pelagic trawlers have 360 degree sonars with a range of over 1nm that cost around half a million upwards each and they have to slow down from their steaming speed of 18 knots to less than 12 knots so they can use them and those sonars are far far better than the ones ever fitted to cruise ships
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 15, 2012, 07:50:27 pm
Sometimes a Newspaper article gets it about right. Not often, but "sometimes". A rather thoughtful article about the grounding etc. of this ship and the angle at which she came to rest kind of hit the nail on its head. I know that inflatables (and launching davits) have been around for many years now......originally designed as a secondary means of survival, and so fitted with hydrostatic release gear that would allow the rafts to self-release from a submerging ship and bob up to the surface fully inflated. A good idea then and now. I also know that a more "aircraft" system is being used on some ships....that is, the use of "slides". Good. But many ships still utilise boats and davits. Any seafarer will agree that using davit launched boats has limitations. Particularly when the sinking ship develops a list. The age old remedy for this was to fit "bowsing in" tackles that, as the name suggests, hold the boat in to the ships side to ease embarkation. In this case the bowsing in tackles don't appear to have been used...perhaps not even fitted (although I doubt if that is the case here). The nub of this is to realise that attempting to evacuate a ship with 6,000 people on board using technology (although updated) ithat is now over 100 years old is an impossibility. My recollection of the rules stated that any ship should carry sufficient lifeboats on each side of the ship to accommodate all people on board. 6,000 people? I think not. The ship would look like nothing on earth. So my thinking is that the embryo "slide" method be made mandatory, and lifeboats as we know them be consigned to history.BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 15, 2012, 09:11:15 pm
As Brian says the slide option (MES) should be mandatory, i work for Calmac Ferries and all of our ships have the MES system onboard, the older ships have MES and life boats but the new ships dont have life boats, they use MES and have two FRC'S the MES is good on aspect that you deploy the system with a greater list than you can a life boat, these FRC's are launched as soon as the Abondon ship order is given and are in the water while the MES is deployd, Iv done an MES deployment with 40 people and the speed we had every one in the raft and away alot quicker than we could of had the life boat loaded and away.
I hope I never have to abandon ship with passengers, the biggest ship we have can take 1050 pax and only a crew of 32, that would not bare thinking about how quick we could everyone off and panic.
The MCA requirements for our classes of ships are 1 crew for 75 pax.
David
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 15, 2012, 09:26:17 pm
I think that you will find that all modern cross-channel ferries are fitted with the MES system now - I know the 3 DFDS Dunkerque boats only have 2 'lifeboats' each plus 2 fast rescue craft, but numerous inflatables.........
If I remember correctly, the 3 'Spirit' class vessels of Townsend Thoresen were one of the first ships on the UK register to have this system, although it was retro-fitted after their entry into service. C
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 15, 2012, 09:31:47 pm
As a layman how are the inflatables used ? Are they inflated then launched? If so , how? how do the passengers get on? and when? As said before im learning all the time John
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: nhp651 on January 15, 2012, 09:48:48 pm
They have a painter (thin rope) attached to a fixed point either on the cradle or rail, etc, which on the other end is linked to a charge which when tugged or pulled sets the charge off which then opens a valve on a compressed air bottle which then inflates the raft......all automatic.. and as the raft inflates, it splits the thin seal between the two canister halves to reveal an inflating raft......and if the release straps are used on the cradle, in extreme circumstances, as the ship goes down, the canistwer containing the raft floats off, and tugs the painter itself, which then opens up the raft.takes about 15 - 20 seconds to inflate. I used to help a certified tester for surveys during my uni holidays at Cosalt, Fleetwood.......and it was great fun doing them, and then driving them off to different ports to catch up with a coster or trawler or what ever that had sailed and left the things behind for testing. I think under most circumstances the raft is launched, and then the people make for it in the water
neil.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on January 15, 2012, 09:54:53 pm
John, The MES System is similar to those used on aircraft. Am enclosed slide with internal "speed bumps" to slow down the descent. At the bottom is a large inflatable platform which the inflated liferafts tie up to. So initial loading per MES id 180 people. 3 x 60 man liferafts. Once full others can tie up to the platform and load up. The Wightlink Ferries to the Isle of Wight have this system on all the car ferries.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 15, 2012, 10:33:25 pm
Hopefully MES will become mandatory and we can see the end of Titanic era style lifeboats , lets face facts these "cruise" ships could make a lot more money with cabins instead of lifeboats although we should remember that all of these boats are powered and are used during the itinerary to transport the passengers ashore and back to the ship on a great many cruise destinations ( take Orkney the big boats have to anchor in the bay and use these lifeboats to transfer passengers )
so they're use for transporting passengers is still needed but we should insist on the MES + inflatable raft system for emergency evacuation of this class of ship
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 15, 2012, 10:47:07 pm
Thanks lads for explaining things are clearer now. My thoughts are now about getting the passengers onboard.Surely expecting people to enter the water to swim to the inflatables is asking too much of a lot of passengers and this is assuming the water is not cold enough to kill. I understand that one passenger died of exposure in the disarster we are talking about. How in rough seas can inflatables be moved at all so passengers can embark?. Once again the idea is good, but in practise? To me it seems that lifeboats and not only inflatables are required. Thanks John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 15, 2012, 11:19:11 pm
It does rather look like that but reports are suggesting that the ship initially hit a 'sandbank' and was subsequently steered to its present position which certainly does seem to be on the rocks. maybe it went aground twice? But usually if you hit a sandbank the damage is relatively minimal and more embarrasing than dangerous.
Looking at the Marine Traffic Map http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=14&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=14&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM) , it seems as if she approached Giglio from the southwest, with the island on her port side. She must have got too close to the shore, hit a rock, and then stood off land, pulling away to the north. The captain decided to beach her rather than sink a mile or so offshore, did a 360 to starboard, and headed for Giglio harbour. If it had been a sandy or flat bottom, the ship would probably not have rolled as much as she did....
It looks like a reasonable decision, though it didn't work that well. The obvious mystery is why she hit the island in the first place. My best guess as to what she hit is: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A) but it should be easy enough to trace the rock embedded in her hull....
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 15, 2012, 11:57:34 pm
Still a very big question as to why she didn't settle upright as designed unless it was due to being perched on a sloping seabed. If it turns out that she was inherently unstable then it poses very serious questions for most other modern cruise ships.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 16, 2012, 12:14:36 am
I think it must be the seabed shape. There's probably a number of other holes in her now...
In other news, this could be an explanation of why she bounced off the first rock. Hat tip to Euro Referendum...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 16, 2012, 08:20:58 am
Can't guarantee the accuracy but it has been reported in the Brisbane press (1800 Brisbane time) that the captain was showing off to someone on shore at the time of the incident which may explain why she was off course and close to the "reef".
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 16, 2012, 11:09:20 am
Looking at the Marine Traffic Map http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=14&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=14&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM) , it seems as if she approached Giglio from the southwest, with the island on her port side. She must have got too close to the shore, hit a rock, and then stood off land, pulling away to the north. The captain decided to beach her rather than sink a mile or so offshore, did a 360 to starboard, and headed for Giglio harbour. If it had been a sandy or flat bottom, the ship would probably not have rolled as much as she did....
It looks like a reasonable decision, though it didn't work that well. The obvious mystery is why she hit the island in the first place. My best guess as to what she hit is: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A) but it should be easy enough to trace the rock embedded in her hull....
Did a 360? Surely not? BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 16, 2012, 11:15:50 am
Yup. The 'Emirate Times' (!!) was reporting an assertion of 'showboating' piece in 'La Stampa' some hours before...
The showboating theory seems to make sense. She approached Giglio from the southwest to do a close pass on the town. She got too close to the shore, hit the rock at http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=42.355860,10.930000&hl=en&ll=42.356562,10.930002&spn=0.010846,0.018733&sll=42.355658,10.930002&sspn=0.010846,0.018733&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A) and then stood off, swung round and headed for Giglio harbour. BY is right - that would be a 180... :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
This suggests there is no issue about stability - the boat simply rolled when it touched the sloping seabed. And no need to call for better sonar - the ship was intentionally driven into danger. It would also explain the reported confusion - the passengers would have been brought up on deck for a lifeboat evacuation, and then the lifeboat launch would then have been delayed because the ship was making a quick dash for the shore.
From the position of the hole, I suspect she went about 30ft from the rock, just avoided it with her stabilisers, but hit it as she swung away. Perhaps there was an argument on the bridge, and someone used her bow thrusters, which would tend to swing her stern in.... :police: :police:
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 16, 2012, 11:49:24 am
Now lets not confuse the non-sailing fraternity on here - surely she was on a northwesterly course and approached Giglio from the southEAST not the south west or is there something I'm missing. Just looks like she made the alteration of course to north a bit too late.
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 16, 2012, 12:56:06 pm
Bryan's theory about the captains decision to beach her is what most ships would do in that situation, it is tuff luck that ship that didnt beach on a flat bed, you can see on google map that the entrance to harbour looks soft and flat, there was reports of electrical problems which could mean that see lost propultion and quite had it to the harbour.
Dodgy geezer brings up the point of maybe the bow thruster was used, has far as i can tell the stabiliser fins are retractable, on the ships i work on we have retractable fins and when the fins are out the bow thruster wont start, as far as I know its the same on all ships with retractable fins.
David
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 16, 2012, 01:37:44 pm
Dodgy geezer brings up the point of maybe the bow thruster was used, has far as i can tell the stabiliser fins are retractable, on the ships i work on we have retractable fins and when the fins are out the bow thruster wont start, as far as I know its the same on all ships with retractable fins. David
That's interesting information that I did not know. But if they were retractable I would be surprised if they were kept out while the ship was attempting a pass close to a rocky shore! They might have been put out later as the ship started to roll, in an effort to keep her upright...
Now lets not confuse the non-sailing fraternity on here - surely she was on a northwesterly course and approached Giglio from the southEAST not the south west or is there something I'm missing. Just looks like she made the alteration of course to north a bit too late.
Quite correct - I'm afraid I don't know my East from my elbow, and my navigational skills approximate to those of Sub Lieutenant Phillips of 'The Navy Lark'... :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: The long Build on January 16, 2012, 01:55:50 pm
Looks like the Company are passing on the blame to the Skipper saying that he overode the computer from its Programmed route to get a bit closer to the Island to Sound the horns " Apparently a bit of a tradition" it appears he went a bit to close..
Or so the news says..
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: justboatonic on January 16, 2012, 02:00:58 pm
Thankfully very few lives lost although even one is too many.
Lots of information being leaked by the owning company saying the ship was way off course. also seems the captain was 'head of Security' when he joined the company in 2002 before succeeding as captain in 2006. Is that usual? I know people can change employment opportunities but security to ship's captain in 4 years?
Just read a report from the owners which said the ship will be out of commission until the end of the year! No kidding! Think it will until the 12th of never myself but you never know.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 16, 2012, 02:41:14 pm
I believe that the ship was ploughing along at a pretty good clip when she hit the rock(s). If that's so then using bow thrusters would (in my experience) be a real no-no. Bow thrusters are meant to be used at not much more than walking pace. Go much faster and the water just rushes past the inlets leaving the thruster blades or whatever sort of spinning uselessly. Be different if she was driven by "pods", but I believe she had conventional drive systems (?). And here I speak from experience. When I was a young and gauche 3/O aboard "Mercury" I used the bow thruster to turn quickly (avoiding a stupid fishing boat). We were doing a leisurely 16 knots. I'd never used a bow thruster before. Finished up being a dry-dock job to fix it. No blame was attatched to me as it was decided that I'd been "improperly briefed". But lesson learned....the hard way! BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 16, 2012, 02:57:58 pm
I don't want to be unsympathetic here ....but it does annoy me that some of the interviewed survivors are surprised that 'a ship can sink' and that 'panic broke out'.
I saw the video clip from inside the lifeboat, several people were screaming, and someone calls out, "This isn't happening! This isn't happening!" - Now I've NEVER really been in a life and death situation.... but I did shout at my TV, "Yes it happening. You're safe in a lifeboat, deal with it. Now shut-up and be quiet, you're frightening the children."
... I just going to go for a short walk outside to cool off..... >:-o
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 16, 2012, 03:21:17 pm
I believe that the ship was ploughing along at a pretty good clip when she hit the rock(s). If that's so then using bow thrusters would (in my experience) be a real no-no. Bow thrusters are meant to be used at not much more than walking pace. ....
Ah well, it was a thought. I defer to someone with more experience in this field. But even using the rudder would tend to swing the stern in. I was just looking for a reason why there did not seem to be any long scores down the length of the hull, but instead a localised impact...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 16, 2012, 03:31:44 pm
Got to agree with you Martin - to most of these people the ship is just a Hotel. They have no comprehension of any danger at sea that might occur with their "hotel". Things like this aren't supposed to happen on their holiday and they cannot cope and panic sets in.
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 16, 2012, 03:48:39 pm
Quote
to most of these people the ship is just a Hotel.
And to most (all ?) owners of this kind of cruise ships, the ones looking Las Vegas hotel from inside and from outside, these ships are also just hotel with some minor problems as they are floating
Xtian
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 16, 2012, 03:59:04 pm
Agree with Pugwash here - most travellers on ships, especially cruise ships, really cannot comprehend the dangers..
When Flo and I travel to Europe, we 99% of the time travel Dover Dunkerque on one of the three 'D' class vessels. Since the beginning, I have always thought through a possible escape plan from wherever in the ship we are sitting - which is mostly one of 3 places : the front cafetieria, the first class lounge or the bar area. I would hope I would never have to act upon it.....
The announcements made on the ferries about gathering at muster stations and being directed to a lifeboat is very confidence inspiring...........to those who have little comprehension!!!! In reality, if a cross channel ferry starts to sink, it will either go down quick or turn turtle just as quickly - a known problem that cannot be resolved within a commercially viable budget or operation. I know where I will go in a sinking or capsizing emergency......and it isnt to the muster stations inside if I am within 3 meters of an outside door!!!!! Carl
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 16, 2012, 04:07:33 pm
Just to bring up a point that justboatonic brought up about the Captain been head of security, all ships now a-days have a designated security officer on board normaly the first mate (chief Mate), so from his experiance as ships security officer got a shore job for a while, to be the first officer onboard these ships he would of been a qualified Master.
Suppose my point is that he didnt just become a security man to master.
David
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 16, 2012, 05:29:40 pm
What happen if the Captain is right and as he says the charts said 'clear navigable waters' .... and the charts prove to be inaccurate?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 16, 2012, 05:48:05 pm
What happen if the Captain is right and as he says the charts said 'clear navigable waters' .... and the charts prove to be inaccurate?
Um. The boat is worth around £370m. But that's dwarfed by the 20% hit Carnival Cruise Lines have taken to their share price - that's about £1bn.
If you had been in charge when a lot of powerful men lost £1bn and you tried to argue that it wasn't your fault, what do you think would happen to you?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 16, 2012, 06:25:07 pm
If he was a British yobbo being dealt with by the Police then he could expect a severe talking too. Which would possibly cause him to injure himself laughing. Once the facts are established hopefully he will receive just punishment.Who remembers the Marchoness sinking? As usual in Britain no real or just punishment.Sadly the death toll continues to rize. From news reports it could have been higher. At least all the highly trained Crew were able to get off first. Thats what training does for you.John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2012, 07:19:47 pm
Quote
At least all the highly trained Crew were able to get off first. Thats what training does for you.
Um... so how did the passengers get off then? All 99% of them.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 16, 2012, 07:32:28 pm
From what ive read after most of the crew. Although some had to swim as no life boats left. Yes thankfully most got off but could the death toll have been less if the crew had done there job? I suppose telling the passengers alls well left the captain a clear path off. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: BarryM on January 16, 2012, 08:18:42 pm
At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck. Very little that has been heard or seen is confirmed as fact and the official inquiry has hardly started. Thus, before making allegations about anybody, be they crew or passengers, lets hold back until the truth is established.
Barry M
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dave301bounty on January 16, 2012, 08:24:21 pm
have had a lot of boat drills on various ships ,one was needed , but let me tell you ,no planned emergency goes right ,those poor souls must have thought it there last .no one can make a comment as it is all very different ,we all react in a very different way but one thing is for sure there is a heck of a lot of questions to be asked and some one is gonna take the blame ?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 16, 2012, 08:39:28 pm
Quote
At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck. Very little that has been heard or seen is confirmed as fact and the official inquiry has hardly started. Thus, before making allegations about anybody, be they crew or passengers, lets hold back until the truth is established.
I quite agree. Much of the 'information' being published in the general media is utter rubbish and you have to read between the lines to a large extent at the moment. But I think that to get 99% of the passengers off safely in a situation like that is a pretty impressive achievement and that those responsible deserve recognition for it. Those passengers didn't save themselves, and many would have been relatively infirm and with limited mobility taking into account the average age range of cruise passengers, most of whom are of pensionable age.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 16, 2012, 08:51:03 pm
The captain made a good job of saving himself which is why he is under arrest for deserting his ship. Yes i do realize that its easy to let conjector and rumour take over. Hopefully lessons can be learnt from this sad event.Being that so many of this big boats have been built i wonder how safety can be improved . Time will tell. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: CF-FZG on January 16, 2012, 09:54:11 pm
At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck.
And that's just on here :D
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 16, 2012, 10:13:08 pm
dave301bounty no planned emergancy goes right, Im the I done lots of drills on different ships aswell, I worked for the RFA for 4 years and the training we did wasnt an hour a week it was all day every day for weeks, I was on a RFA ship that had a fire in the middle of the night, most of what you learn in drills go out the window, people act differently in a real emergancy, I think the crew did well with amount of pax they had and so little loss of life, if the crew where as use less as the news says the where there would of been alot more dead.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 16, 2012, 11:05:13 pm
Even if it is Human (captains error) wouldn't the other officers, in particular the navigation office also have to agree to the course change?
... I know this one of Colin's 'pet peeves', the very "top heavy" nature of the modern day passenger liner.
Martin (landlubber!)
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: BarryM on January 17, 2012, 08:50:17 am
It would be a remarkably brave Mate who told the Old man that he was wrong!
Modern cruise liners may look top-heavy but they are (when intact) very stable. They have to be if the Owner is not to get a lot of complaints from the paying guests.
Barry M
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 17, 2012, 10:55:12 am
Quote
I know this one of Colin's 'pet peeves', the very "top heavy" nature of the modern day passenger liner.
It's their appearance which I don't like Martin. I have no reason to suppose that they are not inherently stable as most of the weight is down in the bottom of the hull. However they depend on dodging bad weather to preserve passenger comfort and on the occasions when they are caught out the motion can be quite uncomfortable compared with a deeper draught ship although that doesn't make them dangerous as such.
The high topsides do create a lot of windage which, combined with the shallow draught, can make them hard to handle though. Hence all those rows of thrusters.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 17, 2012, 02:45:37 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16597277
The coward of a Captain abandoned ship into a lifeboat long before the passengers were off and had to be ordered several times by the coastguard to get back onboard the ship , just heard on BBC News24 that the court in Italy has refused him bail , looks like he will be locked up for a long long time which is just what he deserves
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 17, 2012, 03:39:57 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 17, 2012, 03:49:36 pm
What a truly awful and loaded piece of reporting on the part of the Daily Mail!
But what else do you expect from that 'publication'?
The facts seem to be bad enough already but to embroider them with all that dripping venom.... I suppose we'll have all the 'Italian navy always running away during the war' next!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 17, 2012, 04:13:08 pm
Aye its a very poor but not unexpected drivel from the Daily Wail right enough , listening to the taped Coastguard VHF between the incident commander ashore and the "captain" he was in a lifeboat for about an hour before being forced to go back onboard which by some of the tape maybe looks like he didn't do even though he was ordered several times to get back onto the ship to co-ordinate the rescue of the passengers.
From other news reports from crew they took the decision to muster the passengers 20 to 30 minutes before the Captain ordered a muster , without the crews actions the loss of life here would be in the hundreds if not over a thousand , they were saying that it takes a minimum of an hour to an hour and a quarter to muster all passengers to the boats , this is just far too long especially if a serious collision leading to rapid flooding occurs. Surely the only way forward is to allow a maximum muster time of 30 minutes and either have to double the crew to make sure a ship of this size manages or cut the passengers allowed onboard in half to at least make escape a realistic proposition in a rapidly evolving emergency ( such as collision with another large ship at sea well offshore , shouldn't happen but it is still possible )
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 17, 2012, 04:43:37 pm
Either of those options would make most of the world's cruise ships economically unviable at a stroke! At the moment there is roughly one member of crew for every two passengers.
Surely the critical factor is the rate at which you can get people off the ship and into the boats or liferafts and the size of the ship would not necessarily be relevant. The more people you've getting off simultaneously the quicker the evacuation will go. The important thing is to avoid pinch points which slow everything up.
On our Thomson cruises we were assigned a specific lifeboat to muster below while on the QM2 there were several large spaces designated as muster stations inside the superstructure on the boat deck. I assume that in the case of abandoning the passengers would have been directed out to the boat deck and led to the boats/rafts - hopefully in an orderly manner. However, if you happened to be at the back I'd imagine you might be just a little bit anxious!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: deadwood on January 17, 2012, 05:09:14 pm
Surely the only way forward is to allow a maximum muster time of 30 minutes and either have to double the crew to make sure a ship of this size manages or cut the passengers allowed onboard in half to at least make escape a realistic proposition in a rapidly evolving emergency ( such as collision with another large ship at sea well offshore , shouldn't happen but it is still possible )
And this period (i.e. <= 30 min.) is exactly what the IMO Guidelines for Evacuation Analysis for Pax. Vessels (http://"http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/MSC_Circ_1238.pdf") demand.
Maybe the COSTA CONCORDIA came into service just a wee bit too early for the affected SOLAS regulations' amendments to become effective, as IMO state on their website: The Committee agreed that the new amendments and guidelines should be enforced by 2012 (http://"The Committee agreed that the new amendments and guidelines should be enforced by 2012")?
As it seems the race for ever larger cruise ships driven by the "economy of scale" maybe has hit some acceptable, and feasible limit (especially as evacuation and SAR operations for that many souls are concerned), and the shipping/cruises and shipbuilding industries should reconsider their plans?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 17, 2012, 05:11:02 pm
Davie....I'm sure you mean well, but gathering/collecting both non-seafaring passengers and non-seafaring crew members together when they number in their thousands is by any standards a long process. Has to be. "Drills" always assume that all LSA (Life Saving Apparatus) is available on both sides of the ship. When a large vessel heels over and only 50% of the LSA is available then what do you do with the 50% of the disenfrachised lot? No matter how well educated, physically fit and so on your'e going to have to expect a degree of uncontrolled panic. These people were just going on a holiday, not a survival course. All this comes to mind when I recall the "drill" we did on "Sir Bedivere" within the confines of Portland Harbour. 90 "civilian" volunteer passengers and a well trained crew to look after them. When we heeled the ship to 15* the eruption of panic amongst the "passengers" was really quite frightening...even though there was no danger whatsoever. Dealing with 3,000 passengers with only a minimally trained crew would be an impossibility. My rather stupid and impractical answers to your statement would include having personal chaperones for each passenger, each passenger having to take a "survival at sea" course before being allowed to board and no individual who was considered to be "infirm", "overweight" or otherwise physically hampered would be allowed passage. Stupid idea...but have you got any better ones? I imagine not. And don't keep quoting the Daily Mail...they are only reporting waht all the other papers are saying. BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 17, 2012, 05:15:47 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 17, 2012, 05:29:59 pm
Has anyone ever succeeded in salvaging a ship this size with the amount of hull damage she undoubtably has?? I think it is more than likely it will be chopped up and carted away over a period of months. If the hull can be patched it could be possible to right it and pump out but it seems a tall order. Just have to wait for the report from the divers as to the next course of action
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 17, 2012, 05:59:58 pm
It's not looking good for captain Francesco Schettino {:-{
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16599655
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 17, 2012, 06:06:25 pm
Davie....I'm sure you mean well, but gathering/collecting both non-seafaring passengers and non-seafaring crew members together when they number in their thousands is by any standards a long process. Has to be. "Drills" always assume that all LSA (Life Saving Apparatus) is available on both sides of the ship. When a large vessel heels over and only 50% of the LSA is available then what do you do with the 50% of the disenfrachised lot? No matter how well educated, physically fit and so on your'e going to have to expect a degree of uncontrolled panic. These people were just going on a holiday, not a survival course. All this comes to mind when I recall the "drill" we did on "Sir Bedivere" within the confines of Portland Harbour. 90 "civilian" volunteer passengers and a well trained crew to look after them. When we heeled the ship to 15* the eruption of panic amongst the "passengers" was really quite frightening...even though there was no danger whatsoever. Dealing with 3,000 passengers with only a minimally trained crew would be an impossibility. My rather stupid and impractical answers to your statement would include having personal chaperones for each passenger, each passenger having to take a "survival at sea" course before being allowed to board and no individual who was considered to be "infirm", "overweight" or otherwise physically hampered would be allowed passage. Stupid idea...but have you got any better ones? I imagine not. And don't keep quoting the Daily Mail...they are only reporting waht all the other papers are saying. BY.
The 30 minute evacuation SOLAS requirement is only for getting into the boats and getting them away after the muster , it seems to be the time to get people to their muster stations that is the problem deadwood , they had a former cruise ship master on the news last night discussing it
Bryan I think the major problem is that the current sea going passengers on these ships are just not educated enough to accept that something like this can happen , some seem to think that these modern boats can't sink ( shades of Titanic in the 100th year since the disaster... ).
The problem I have is that once you have 2000+ non-seafarers as passengers on a ship like this is that it only takes a small number to panic and you get mass hysteria leading to people running around like headless chickens pushing people out of the way causing injuries and slowing down the movement of people from their cabins or the communal areas to the muster stations. Perhaps the use of inflatable rafts instead of just using boats would speed up the safe evacuation from a ship like this but the fact that the passengers hadn't had a muster drill before the incident happened must see a change to SOLAS regs making it compulsory that everyone in the crew and passengers go through a drill before the ship leaves port , you wouldn't expect an air steward to give you the emergency procedures just before you landed afterall.
When I worked for the Marine Lab we always did lifeboat drill on the morning we sailed , before we left the quay , including putting on a full survival suit and lifejacket. We also had to go to our boat deck where we still had 2 lifeboats along with 6 liferafts. For people that had not been aboard before they were then shown around the lifeboat davits to have a rudimentary understanding of how they worked and how to release the boat ( all davits had the full instructions attached ). We also did a full survival suit and lifejackt drill before sailing after our half landings ( always did 10 or 11 days work then 1 day ashore either in Denmark , Norway , Lerwick , Stornoway or Dublin/Cork ) , whether or not all of this was SOLAS regs or not the MN Captain's we had aboard made sure this was done along with the crew doing full fire fighting drill using Breathing Apparatus sets at least every trip which came in handy when the centre engine ( we had 3 main engines as we were diesel electric ) went on fire one day off Montrose and we had to evacuate up through the A-frame aft due to smoke from the engineroom
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 17, 2012, 08:09:09 pm
This ship was working on round trip cruise then there is no "start point" with all passagers coming and "end point" for disembarking. That means for exemple the French passagers where at the end of the cruise after six days aboard the boat will come to Marseille the day before but for the italian passagers , after a pot call at Civitavecchia it was the first day aboard, even the first night and they didn't received safety procedures (no instruction for life jacket, life boat ...) they also had no knowledge of the ship itself
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 17, 2012, 08:21:09 pm
Brian young might know more than me about this, I think on these ships they have do to a drill with in 24 hours of boarding.
david
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 17, 2012, 08:24:28 pm
Thats right David 24 hours but this happened 2 hours after sailing so those that embarked in Italy had no idea of the ships layout , where their muster stations were or what to do in an emergency which is why I'd like to see the regulations changed to make it compulsory to have a boat drill before sailing for the new passengers
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: The long Build on January 17, 2012, 08:28:20 pm
Thats right David 24 hours but this happened 2 hours after sailing so those that embarked in Italy had no idea of the ships layout , where their muster stations were or what to do in an emergency which is why I'd like to see the regulations changed to make it compulsory to have a boat drill before sailing for the new passengers
Is this sort of general information not provided on the back of the door of each Cabin..
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 17, 2012, 08:54:45 pm
Yes of course : on the back door of your cabin. What you do when ship departing (looking outside) then it was time for dinner (going to restaurant)
A friend of me was at Marseille on Friday and was at the hotel waiting to board this ship the day after... Then she watched TV and knew that her journey on cruise ship Costa Concordia was cancelled for her ... Then she was happy, no cruise but alived !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: bobk on January 17, 2012, 09:01:01 pm
Not the same thing, but when we started our Nile cruise in November the Steward who showed us to our cabin explained the emergency procedures and where our life jackets were stowed. There was also large safety procedures poster on the inside of the cabin door. I always read these, the same as the emergency cards on aircraft, just in case. Strange how most people on aircraft seem to ignore the safety demo, but at least you always get the demo before you take off.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 17, 2012, 09:22:29 pm
Hi all, Very interesting albeit tragic. Can the more enlightened help me here. I see from the specification of the ship that she has 6 very large diesels (Wartzilla) engines and so will she have azipods for propulsion? I can't seem to nail this one for certain on the Internet.
I understand how the system works thanks to Bunkerbarge helping me with an article I wrote on the Queen Victoria for Model Boats magazine.
I read an article from Captain La Fauci (longest serving Carnival Lines Captain) that Carnival were not building any more azipod cruise ships, I believe that the Queen Victoria was the next ship to be built after Costa...and that has azipods.
If so then all references to rudders can be discounted as they are not needed.
These units do stick out or down rather a lot! so how would you beach a ship with azipods? It can't possibly slide and ground onto a beach.
regards to all, Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 17, 2012, 09:43:00 pm
I have seen a reference to the Costa Concordia being conventionally propelled with shafts and props with electric motors.
It does rather look as if the collision with the rocks immediately flooded the main engine room following which the emergency generators situated higher in the ship kicked in.
No doubt all will become clear in due course, and quite quickly too as the cruise industry will be desperate to know whether other ships could be vulnerable.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pettyofficernick on January 18, 2012, 01:25:03 pm
In court this morning, the Captain claimed that he 'accidentally' fell into the lifeboat in which he made good his escape from the stricken ship. Just who is he trying to kid???? Sky News, 11:30 bulletin.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 18, 2012, 01:28:04 pm
Colin...ALL ships are "vulnerable", but most ships (particularly passenger ships) don't have Captains who like "rock hopping". Just a thought...I've been pondering some possible reasons why the ship should have lain down on her port side when all the visible damage is on the stbd side. My conclusion (possibly totally wrong!) is that eventually more major damage will be found on the port side. The "how" part of that theory may well come up with some pretty bizzare conclusions! Like being struck twice? Food for thought though. BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 18, 2012, 01:33:35 pm
From what I can deduce from all the photographs I have seen (and this is ONLY my theory), is that she initially struck rocks on her port side, holing the ship and taking on water. The captain then decided to drive her onto the shore or into shallower waters for her to settle on an even keel - but actually drove her onto more rocks on her starboard side causing more damage in the process. She certainly settled, but on a rocky shore, and one photo shows her lying with her starboard structure resting on rocks, which is why I think she hasnt keeled over 90deg like the Herald did on a flatter sea-bed.
Just my deduction........... Carl
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 18, 2012, 02:21:02 pm
Quote
Colin...ALL ships are "vulnerable",
Sorry Bryan, I didn't express myself clearly. As you say, anything that goes to sea is vulnerable to some extent. What I meant was that assumptions made about the stability of modern cruise ships might turn out to be incorrect which would increase the assumed risk factor. However I find it difficult to believe that the designers would have made errors on that sort of scale. More likely that the sheer extent of the damage was the reason. A pretty large area of the amidships must have flooded rapidly and extensively and possibly beyond the anticipated design limits for absorbing damage whilst retaining stability. It's certainly going to be interesting to see what the truth is when it finally emerges. I don't think we're anywhere near that stage yet.
I'm no seamam but I thought the last thing you should do with a ship is to bring it into proximity of any potential underwater hazards.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 18, 2012, 02:52:23 pm
I'm really surprised to see the stabiliser, seemingly, completely undamaged.
.... What I meant was that assumptions made about the stability of modern cruise ships might turn out to be incorrect which would increase the assumed risk factor. However I find it difficult to believe that the designers would have made errors on that sort of scale......
This reference may be of interest - HT to EuroReferendum, who are discussing the issue with reference to international regulations... http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=SOLAS+2009+%E2%80%93+Raising+the+Alarm&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dft.gov.uk%2Fmca%2Fa11._stab_2007_solas_2009_-_raising_the_alarm.doc&ei=8eEWT7-IJ4ik8gOozIXaAg&usg=AFQjCNHdfNqJ7_Nl3J1IjgW1uUmqtKsxdg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=SOLAS+2009+%E2%80%93+Raising+the+Alarm&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dft.gov.uk%2Fmca%2Fa11._stab_2007_solas_2009_-_raising_the_alarm.doc&ei=8eEWT7-IJ4ik8gOozIXaAg&usg=AFQjCNHdfNqJ7_Nl3J1IjgW1uUmqtKsxdg)
I'm really surprised to see the stabiliser, seemingly, completely undamaged.
I suspect the stabs weren't out when doing the close pass, and got put out as the ship went into land, in an effort to stop it heeling so much. I'm pretty sure that the starboard stabiliser has a fair bit of damage....
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 18, 2012, 04:06:42 pm
Stabiliser probably not out when the ship hit the rock and its set to max rise on the port side so starboard would be max down meaning if they they stuck due to hydraulic failure then forward momentum of the ship would make her life to starboard meaning its more likely that she just settled far enough over to allow water into the starboard side through access doors or port holes and sunk that way.
The man who organised the escape was an off duty Captain of one of the sister ships and he is absolutely scathing about the coward that abandoned his passengers and crew to save his own backside
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on January 18, 2012, 07:02:54 pm
Blame culture whipped up by the media - Yet again. All down to ONE person.
The parent company knew this was going on but didn't send a "Memo" out to stop it, why should they, in "Normal" operations, free advertising to anyone looking from the shore.
The Captain is obviously of dubious character, BUT, they entrusted him with the flagship cruise liner????
The Coastguard shouts and carries on from a warm office 50 miles away from the scene?
Some numpty shows a comparison to the "Hudson river" event? Pilot making sure everyone is off the A/C? 190 passengers as opposed to 4000.
Practice all you like, but if it happens for real, who can tell what they would do.
Hindsight is a great teacher, pity all the armchair Admirals and Media parasites don't remember this.
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 18, 2012, 08:03:22 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16620807
Italian captain 'turned too late'
The captain of the cruise ship that capsized on Friday, killing at least 11 people, has admitted making a navigation mistake, Italian media say.
Captain Francesco Schettino told investigators he had "ordered the turn too late" as the luxury ship sailed close to an island, according to a leaked interrogation transcript.
The Costa Concordia ran aground with about 4,200 people on board.
More than 20 are still missing but the search for survivors has been halted. Continue reading the main story “Start Quote
You declared abandon ship, now I give orders. Go aboard. Is it clear?”
Gregorio de Falco Livorno Port Authority
Transcript: Coastguard call
According to the leaked transcript quoted by Italian media, Capt Schettino said the route of the Costa Concordia on the first day of its Mediterranean cruise had been decided as it left the port of Civitavecchia, near Rome, on Friday.
The captain reportedly told the investigating judge in the city of Grosseto that he had decided to sail close to Giglio to salute a former captain who had a home on the Tuscan island.
"I was navigating by sight because I knew the depths well and I had done this manoeuvre three or four times," he reportedly said.
"But this time I ordered the turn too late and I ended up in water that was too shallow. I don't know why it happened." 'Saving lives'
The ship's owners, Costa Crociere, said earlier this week that the change of route had not been authorised.
On Tuesday, Capt Schettino's lawyer said his client had told the judge that lives had been saved thanks to the manoeuvre he made after the ship hit rocks.
The captain is under house arrest on suspicion of multiple manslaughter. Prosecutors have also accused him of fleeing the ship before evacuation was complete.
A recording of a call between him and a port official after the crash appears to support this, though Capt Schettino denies the claims.
In the recording, released by the Corriere della Sera newspaper, Livorno Port Authority chief Gregorio De Falco can be heard repeatedly telling the captain to get back on board to help passengers.
"Schettino, maybe you saved yourself from the sea, but I'll make you have trouble for sure. Go aboard," says Mr De Falco.
The captain appears to refuse, replying first that there are rescuers already on board, and then that it is dark and difficult to see.
Coastguards believe he never went back to the ship. He was arrested on the island shortly afterwards.
During the hearing, the captain reportedly said he could not get on board the vessel because it was lying on its side.
Italian media also quote him as telling the judge he had left the ship accidentally after tripping and falling into a rescue craft.
Search suspended
The BBC's Alan Johnston on Giglio island says that if the reports of the captain's answers under questioning are correct, then this amounts to an admission of the most reckless incompetence.
Meanwhile, the first dead victim to be identified was a 38-year-old Hungarian violinist, Sandor Feher.
His body was found in the wreck and identified by his mother, Hungary's foreign ministry said on Wednesday.
The search for survivors has been suspended, with officials saying there is a risk of the Costa Concordia sinking completely in rough seas.
Officials are hoping to begin salvage work soon, including pumping oil off the wreck. There are fears the vessel might slip into deeper water off the Tuscan coast.
A specialist team from a Dutch salvage company is preparing to pump more than 2,300 tonnes of fuel from the ship's 17 tanks.
The firm says this could take several weeks. Experts believe there is little risk of a major fuel leak that would contaminate the scenic area.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 18, 2012, 09:27:37 pm
Blame culture whipped up by the media - Yet again. All down to ONE person.
The parent company knew this was going on but didn't send a "Memo" out to stop it, why should they, in "Normal" operations, free advertising to anyone looking from the shore.
The Captain is obviously of dubious character, BUT, they entrusted him with the flagship cruise liner????
The Coastguard shouts and carries on from a warm office 50 miles away from the scene?
Some numpty shows a comparison to the "Hudson river" event? Pilot making sure everyone is off the A/C? 190 passengers as opposed to 4000.
Practice all you like, but if it happens for real, who can tell what they would do.
Hindsight is a great teacher, pity all the armchair Admirals and Media parasites don't remember this.
Regards Ian.
Now we are getting to the real issues, the owners throwing someone to the wolves to mitigate their loses while covering up their culpaability.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 18, 2012, 09:36:55 pm
Well said ian. :-))
David
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 18, 2012, 10:13:09 pm
Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on January 18, 2012, 10:44:11 pm
I have read this thread with interest and researched the news on the unfolding saga. The Captain of ANY vessel is the owners representative on board the vessel. The Captains first priority is the safety of the vessel. No-one or company can override this directive. If you are not strong enough to ensure the safety of the ship over ANY interference perhaps you should no be a Captain in the first place. Every Officer on board the vessel answers ultimately to the captain. The same is true for crew through their departmental heads. In an emergency situation the captain is in overall control, if he is incapacitated the Chief Officer assumes this responsibility down in a set chain of command. The Captain is charged with the safety of any passengers and crew. These are the Captains primary functions. All emergency functions are directed by the Captain on the bridge who co-ordinates the response to the emergency. It has been reported that another Captain off duty and on board for the ride home assumed overall command. He is being hailed as a hero in Italy but he states that he was "only doing his duty". Which is correct but was not his ship. I am sorry to burst the bubble about him being a scapegoat but he is responsible for the ship including passage plans and any forced change of course and of course the safety of the ship and passengers. He himself admits that he deviated from the passage plan and there was an entry on Facebook that the ship would pass close to the island well before she ran aground. It was his place to co-ordinate the safe evacuation of the ship not "trip over and fall into a lifeboat"
This is not conjecture but the experience of 32 years at sea as a ships officer up to Chief Engineer.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pettyofficernick on January 18, 2012, 11:22:24 pm
Quite agree Bob, the man's not fit to be in command of a peddalo, let alone a cruise liner.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 19, 2012, 09:00:45 am
Hi, I listened to a translation of the Coastguard talking to the captain. The Coastgard said as you have abandoned ship I am in charge! He ordered the captain back on board to account for the passengers and he refused. There are quite a few comments from the officers as well, implying that he drove her like a Ferrari.
I hope you won't take this in the wrong way, but I saw a headline comparing Costa Concordia to RBS, both have a severe liquidity problem! regards Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: CJ1 on January 19, 2012, 09:34:25 am
Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.
Colin
I disagree completely. As Captain, he is wholly responsible for his ship, crew and passengers and therefore totally to blame.
Chris
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 19, 2012, 09:58:28 am
Quote
I disagree completely. As Captain, he is wholly responsible for his ship, crew and passengers and therefore totally to blame.
True, but that doesn't mean that others are are not also at fault. After the Herald of Free Enterprise capsized the company were also held to blame for their operational practices. If it comes out that Costa turned a blind eye to these island 'fly bys' then they must also accept some responsibility.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 19, 2012, 10:24:54 am
True, but that doesn't mean that others are are not also at fault. After the Herald of Free Enterprise capsized the company were also held to blame for their operational practices. If it comes out that Costa turned a blind eye to these island 'fly bys' then they must also accept some responsibility.Colin
Exactly
O0 O0 O0 :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 19, 2012, 11:01:24 am
Interesting drawing from the corriere de la serra
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 19, 2012, 11:41:41 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16607837
Claims that the ship had done similar sail-byes before, but the earlier one shown was a few yards further from shore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16563562
Shows the approved route, and the one actually taken. Quite a difference,
Thats one heck of a big hole - the water must have been scooped in enormously quickly. If there was an attempt to keep it upright by using the stabilisers, it is quite possible that it was overdone and the unwanted water ran to the "wrong" side. If the hole was still below water, the water would still enter, but the extra weight would transfer to the starboard side. Of course, the stabilisers only work when the ship is moving, so as it slowed down, the more likely it would be that the hole would be further submerged, more water would enter, and the ship would settle starboard side down. Fortunate for many that they managed to find something to ground on, Med islands are not noted for wide shelving beaches, more for big cliffs and a huge drop into deep water.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dave301bounty on January 19, 2012, 03:47:32 pm
I Say ,what,s a pedalo . and was that the ships purser geting winched out two days ago ,he had a broken leg ,wonder how he got it .? on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 19, 2012, 04:41:58 pm
Quote
on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?
Just a bit more than that I think....
Not surprised he had a broken leg, moving about a ship lying on its side is not exactly safe.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 19, 2012, 05:42:05 pm
I Say ,what,s a pedalo . and was that the ships purser geting winched out two days ago ,he had a broken leg ,wonder how he got it .? on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?
Wrecked pedalo picture attached While a purser on a cruise ship is largely concerned with looking after passengers' well being, when something untoward happens, like the ship sinking, being a ships officer, he has a share of the responsibility for getting them off in a tidy manner. This is something that the actual Captain appears to to have missed out on. This guy was trying to help people in a situation way beyond his job description, and suffered a broken leg while doing so.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 19, 2012, 06:46:35 pm
Claims that the ship had done similar sail-byes before, but the earlier one shown was a few yards further from shore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16563562
Shows the approved route, and the one actually taken. Quite a difference,
Thats one heck of a big hole - the water must have been scooped in enormously quickly. If there was an attempt to keep it upright by using the stabilisers, it is quite possible that it was overdone and the unwanted water ran to the "wrong" side. If the hole was still below water, the water would still enter, but the extra weight would transfer to the starboard side. Of course, the stabilisers only work when the ship is moving, so as it slowed down, the more likely it would be that the hole would be further submerged, more water would enter, and the ship would settle starboard side down. Fortunate for many that they managed to find something to ground on, Med islands are not noted for wide shelving beaches, more for big cliffs and a huge drop into deep water.
Hang on a minute. That diagram shows only the PORT side having an impact...all the printed photos show huge damage to the STBD side..but no indication on the diagram where that may have ocurred. BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Welsh Wizard on January 19, 2012, 07:17:27 pm
Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.
Colin
Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: tobyker on January 19, 2012, 07:29:55 pm
Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many a. paying passengers, b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax) c proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)
presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 19, 2012, 07:43:50 pm
Quote
Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE
No Dave, I'm not. Of course the Captain is responsible if it was his action that caused the ship to hit the rocks, I'm not saying otherwise. The point I'm making is that if the Captain was not properly trained, or encouraged to follow potentially dangerous operational procedures by his employers then they are also culpable alongside him, not instead of him. After all, they appointed him - if they put an unreliable character in command of a 100,000+ ton cruise ship then their actions also need to be examined and any appropriate action taken. Otherwise they might do it again!
I would not be at all surprised if it turns out that Costa have been lax in their management and operational procedures, just as Townsend Thoresen were in the case of the Herald of Free Enterprise.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: CF-FZG on January 19, 2012, 08:18:06 pm
Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many a. paying passengers, b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax) c proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)
presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.
'kinel - these chefs are well mollycoddled nowadays :kiss:
to answer your question - I'd guess that any crew involved with the pax would be trained in evac procedures :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 19, 2012, 08:39:02 pm
Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many a. paying passengers, b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax) c proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)
presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.
About 3200 passengers and 1000 crew members. The able-seamen can presumably operate evacuation kit, while the B Ark types (barmen, entertainers, etc) should have the very valuable skills of crowd control, addressing the public in multiple languages and panic suppression...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: justboatonic on January 19, 2012, 09:04:57 pm
On a related note, can anyone shed light onto how 'capsized' came to mean a ship turning upside down!?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on January 19, 2012, 09:31:14 pm
Sorry Colin, On this one you are incorrect. It doesn't matter how many times the company allowed or turned a blind eye to any so called fly past. The Master's primary responsibility is the safety of his ship. No-one can overide that responsibility unless the Captain is removed from his duties by being unfit. That responsibility is enshrined in International Maritime Law. That is how he is now under house arrest. Endangering your ship is an International Criminal Offence which has delegated powers for the Port of Registry country to uphold. The fact that he has the correct Maritime Qualifications deem him responsible and trained. Unless he had a Port Exemption for Pilotage he should gave been carrying a local Pilot. To get the exemption you need to display local knowledge. Even with a pilot on board the Captain is responsible for the safety of the ship and can overide any order given by the pilot as he is responsible for the safety of his ship.
On UK vessel non-seafaring crew are requited to have a sea survival MCA recognised qualification and CPSC (Certificate of Proficiency in Survival Craft) That includes non-seafarers such as Stewards/esses, Hairdressers etc.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 19, 2012, 09:38:43 pm
Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE
Dave
I think we are missing the point here, it is a cruise ship, no one says El Capitano is not responsible, but so are the owners who have, not that I am aware of, made statements of condolences, regret etc but only statements mitigating their culpability.
Think of it this way how often does a Planes captain deviate of course for whatever reason, such as storms, for the comfort of passengers.
All approved by the owners and OK when things are fine, crash the plane, oops Pilot error not our fault.
A more recent example in Queensland waters. A bulk ore Carrier ran aground in the barrier reef, at the subsequent trial the captain, who was held responsible under Queensland law, proved in his defence, that the owners had a bonus scheme in place which rewarded Captains taking measures, in this case a shortcut and being off course, to shorten travelling times and saving fuel. The Owners subsequently bore the brunt of the fine. They had hung him out to dry. You mean to tell me there are not unwritten similar instructions to Cruise captains, keep the Passengers happy no matter what, they are your number one priority etc. On the evidence these cruises have been "off course" before. And what of the number of crew sufficient for an emergency yes/no obviously no and who makes that decision the owners. Don't get me wrong I am not for the Captain just saying there are others to blame and must take accountability.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 19, 2012, 10:07:48 pm
RaaArtyGunner seems to be the only one actually reading my posts properly!
Bob, I already know all the points you have listed above. Yes OF COURSE the captain has full responsibility for the vessel and will have to account for himself and take whatever the consequences are. No way am I arguing that anything the company has or hasn't done mitigates his actions.
BUT! The company is on record as saying that his diversion of course was unauthorised and yet it would seem that they have been aware that he has been doing this on previous occasions. If they knew he was potentially endangering his ship by taking it too far inshore and did nothing about it are you suggesting that they should walk away scot free? Of course not! They should be in the dock alongside him for countenancing unsafe operating practice.
In every company there is (or should be) the equivalent of a Marine Superintendent who is effectively the professional line manager for the captains of the ships in the fleet. That person should be responsible for issuing operational practice 'standing orders' and ensuring that they are carried out. If the company has fallen short of their obligations to provide the safest possible seagoing environment for their customers and employees then they must be held accountable for that quite separately from any action taken against the captain of the ship.
There are plenty of similar examples in other fields. If a train driver passes a signal at red and causes a crash, it isn't just him in the dock but the people who trained him and the track operator as well if there were insufficient safety precautions or those that were in place didn't work due to poor maintenance.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: CF-FZG on January 19, 2012, 10:14:44 pm
Think of it this way how often does a Planes captain deviate of course for whatever reason, such as storms, for the comfort of passengers.
All approved by the owners and OK when things are fine, crash the plane, oops Pilot error not our fault.
Strictly speaking - never.
The captain will file a flight plan for his flight which will then be passed to ATC along the route, who will then allow him to request deviations along the route for various reasons, subject to any other traffic along the route. Now say he's flying from Sidney to Los Angeles, a long portion of his flight is outside of ATC control, he's then allocated a 'slot' along a 'air corridor' (which can have quite a large vertical element), which he is not allowed to deviate from, except in an emergency, (when he's allowed to change altitude). If he does move out of his 'slot' he's liable to prosecution for endangering an aircraft in flight.
I don't believe the same rules apply to shipping, who have other 'rules of the sea'.
Now! getting back to the discussion between Bob, Colin and WW ok2
As anyone who's been in a supervisory/managerial position will know, you can delegate anything to do with your job - apart from the responsibility that comes with it
However, while the ultimate responsibility for the ship's safety lies with the captain, the blame, (as it appears from various news reports), for the accident can be shared with the company.
Mark.
Mark.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 19, 2012, 11:21:05 pm
If there's a good argument going I'll stick my tuppenny-worth in... :D :D
There seems to be a bit of confusion here about what 'responsibility' means. it is quite clear that the Captain has ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of a ship. But, as CB says, there are other areas of responsibility as well. If someone has failed in these, again as CB says "...they must be held accountable for that quite separately from any action taken against the captain of the ship..."
This does not necessarily lower the level of responsibility or blame placed on the captain at all. It is ADDITIONAL responsibility for other people to do their jobs correctly. In this case it appears that the Owners had authorised close passes of Giglio before. Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to lay down safety rules for them. If they did not, then they were probably not doing their jobs properly.
The ship capsized rapidly, resulting in many deaths. Ships are not supposed to do that. If it turns out that the ships designers did not follow appropriate design guidelines, then they too may be blamed for not doing their jobs properly.
But none of this detracts from the obvious point that a Captain is not meant to bounce his ship off rocks while showing off...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: carlmt on January 19, 2012, 11:37:21 pm
If there's a good argument going I'll stick my tuppenny-worth in... :D :D ............................ The ship capsized rapidly, resulting in many deaths. Ships are not supposed to do that. If it turns out that the ships designers did not follow appropriate design guidelines, then they too may be blamed for not doing their jobs properly.
But none of this detracts from the obvious point that a Captain is not meant to bounce his ship off rocks while showing off...
Nowt to do with the designers in this case - the ship was designed to comply with the classification rules in force at the time. Older ships are generally either brought up to modern spec on class rules - to comply with SOLAS............or scrapped if it is uneconomic to do so - especially European owned and operated vessels plying a passenger trade. They wouldnt get insurance otherwise. I cannot say that this is practice is universal worldwide as there have been many instances to the contrary - but these are usually in the 'third world' environments.
Anyone hear the report this evening on Radio 4 about 5:45 - an interview with a retired RN Captain? He even admitted - on air - to racing an American aircraft carrier when he commanded HMS Gloucester. Apparently, when his successor tried a similar stunt, there was an 'embarrasing' moment....he did not elaborate.
An interesting 'take' on the events - try and find the piece on line......Radio 4 'PM' programme. Carl
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 19, 2012, 11:48:32 pm
Quote
Such passes are dangerous
are you seaman ? This kind of passe is not dangerous at all - There is deep water very close to the shore. Any navigation close to the shore just need that everybody on the wheelhouse do there job properly with preparation work on map - then GPS/radar/electronic maping navigation system but also checking men eyes alignement.
Then here there is a wheelhouse staff mistake !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on January 20, 2012, 09:48:37 am
Your right xtitan, this a mistake of the whole bridge team and close passes are very common on ships due to navigational reasons, you would have a navigation officer monitering the position, the officer of the watch would be monitering position and there would be more than likely a jounior offericer of the watch aswell.
Im a seaman myself and know how bridge operation work and the ship i work on pases rocks and reefs about 100-200 yards away from us. so cloes passes are common.
david
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 20, 2012, 10:31:44 am
Just a point about fixing position. With these mega ships the bow is in one place and the stern is somewhere else entirely, approaching a quarter of a mile away!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: deadwood on January 20, 2012, 11:08:41 am
With these mega ships the bow is in one place and the stern is somewhere else entirely, approaching a quarter of a mile away!
That's why they have the distances from the standpoint to beginning of stem and end of stern written on a plate fixed to the bulwark (or similar) in the bridge wings, I suppose.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on January 20, 2012, 12:11:47 pm
And not to forget, recently one of HMS's warships had to be brought back on a trailer from Southern waters after "bumping" a rock that just happened to be on a crease line on the charts?
And two of our subs that thought they could "Nudge" an island out of the way?
I listened to the Captain of Ardent telling that he didn't leave untill he new all the live were off and only the deceased remained, In effect, he was only driving a tug. To draw any comparison you need to look at an aircraft carrier, - well, someone elses' as we haven't got any anymore.
I wonder what the fatality numbers would have been had the "Ferrari" driver not turned the boat back when he did? At least one mere Woman is hailing his seamanship.
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 20, 2012, 12:16:29 pm
Two points re the previous 2 posts. The etched plates on the bridge wings are not there for navigational purposes. Sometimes useful when berthing, but otherwise just a datum point. The second point about distances from the bridge to for'd or aft. For general navigation those distances can be failrly safely ignored and the ranges/bearings etc can be read on a radar screen using the position of the radar scanner as a datum. Once you get to a position wher distances etc are measured in feet rather than miles you are either too close to something or are navigating in very restricted waters. Much of this "close quarters" stuff is, or can be, done by using Mark1 eyeball and compass bearings etc. However. Another system used is called "Blind Pilotage". Primarily developed for use when in fog and restricted waters. The RFA and RN practice this on a regular basis. I guess the mecanics of the system have changed since I was a Nav, but the principles remain the same. It's called "Parallel Indexing". And can be a long subject all on its own. But it boils down to the Nav having to do an awful lot of preparatory work. Both "on paper" and on the radar plotter. Way points on the screen, tidal flow predictions, wndage etc. Then the distances from the radar scanner to bow and stern have to be marked. Then the ships transverse movement has to be accounted for when turning. This all becomes an art (before modern electronics). BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 20, 2012, 12:59:36 pm
are you seaman ? This kind of passe is not dangerous at all - There is deep water very close to the shore. Any navigation close to the shore just need that everybody on the wheelhouse do there job properly with preparation work on map - then GPS/radar/electronic maping navigation system but also checking men eyes alignement.
Your right xtitan, this a mistake of the whole bridge team and close passes are very common on ships due to navigational reasons, you would have a navigation officer monitering the position, the officer of the watch would be monitering position and there would be more than likely a jounior offericer of the watch aswell.
Um? You must be using a different definition of the word 'dangerous' to the one I am using. I mean 'having the potential to cause harm'. An OED definition is 'the condition of being exposed to the chance of evil, risk or peril'. Interestingly, they specifically illustrate the word thus:
Naut 'a submerged rock, or the like, causing danger to vessels.'. 1699 Hake Coll. Voy. iii 29 ".. at three quarters ebb, you may see all the dangers going in....But I would not advise any man to go in until he has viewed the harbour at low water.."
I can find NO indication in the OED that the word has any implication of 'doing something wrong and out of the ordinary', which seems to be the meaning you are ascribing to it. On the contrary, the word is used to describe anticipated hazards which need to be allowed for, rather than avoided.
Various levels of danger are indeed a common and unavoidable feature of life. Occasionally, for instance, I cross a road. When I am doing something dangerous, I will usually take especial care, and monitor my position closely - exactly as you both expect the crew of a ship to do. That is why I said that "Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to lay down safety rules for them". I did NOT say "Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to forbid them". And I CERTAINLY did not say "Such passes are uncommon and cannot be achieved safely..", which seems to be your implication.
Of course, modern journalists and safety activists frequently try to suggest that any activity involving the slightest risk should be banned, and hence should be rare. But I hope that no one counts me amongst their number....
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 20, 2012, 01:27:06 pm
Hi all, I see they are going to pump out 2300 tonnes of fuel oil. I would think that this would give the ship a lot more buoyancy and so be more at the mercy of the waves, etc. How do you go about securing 70+ thousand tons to the shore? regards Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 20, 2012, 02:11:35 pm
Hi all, I see they are going to pump out 2300 tonnes of fuel oil. I would think that this would give the ship a lot more buoyancy and so be more at the mercy of the waves, etc.
Replace with sea water, perhaps?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: deadwood on January 20, 2012, 02:21:06 pm
Probably not more buoyancy, but less weight.
What kind of fuel oil are they actually trying to pump out? I would imagine that the majority of bunkered "oils" would be marine diesel oil for the medium speed 4-stroke engines of the propulsion. So not quite that tar like heavy fuel oil. Then they must carry some lube oil, but don't know if these are significant amounts.
Yesterday evening, I saw in the German telly news that the Dutch Smit Tak salvage operators are preparing for one of the probably biggest and most demanding salvage operations. One professor of naval architecture from the Hamburg Uni was commenting on what they most likely are about to do with the wreck. He said that as a first attempt they will close the gash on the port side with steel plates. Then simultaneously apply inflatable blisters beneath her capsized starboard side and try to inflate those while they will be pumping the water from the wreck, and thus hope to raise her into an upright position again. If this won't work they probably will apply huge diamond coated saw chains on the hull and try to saw it apart into transportable pieces by tugs thrusting back and forth in apply thus the sawing movement. That sounds pretty weird. I've never seen this. Hopefully, they will release some footage of the operation on YouTube or similar.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 20, 2012, 02:25:38 pm
I believe it was 2000+ tons of diesel that has to be removed. As to Salvage there was a naval architect interviewed on one TV channel who gave then a less than 50% chance of getting it off the rocks in one piece
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 20, 2012, 02:45:20 pm
... He said that as a first attempt they will close the gash on the port side with steel plates. Then simultaneously apply inflatable blisters beneath her capsized starboard side and try to inflate those while they will be pumping the water from the wreck, and thus hope to raise her into an upright position again. ....
The water level is well over the starboard side, so water will be easily able to get into the boat through deck-level openings. If they cannot seal these well they will have to tilt the boat more upright before pumping out. Such a tactic would have a high chance of success on a flat, sandy shore.
The big problem here is the fact that the boat is perched precariously on a sloping shore, and any attempt to tilt her upright will probably cause her to slip further down the slope. I do not know if it will be easy to secure the hull against this.
I might suggest that this is a possible candidate for the technique of displacing water from inside a hull by inflating bags/foam/WHY inside the boat. Then any movement as the boat starts to float will not result in immediate buoyancy loss as water re-enters...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DickyD on January 20, 2012, 03:13:08 pm
Um? You must be using a different definition of the word 'dangerous' to the one I am using. I mean 'having the potential to cause harm'. An OED definition is 'the condition of being exposed to the chance of evil, risk or peril'. Interestingly, they specifically illustrate the word thus:
Naut 'a submerged rock, or the like, causing danger to vessels.'. 1699 Hake Coll. Voy. iii 29 ".. at three quarters ebb, you may see all the dangers going in....But I would not advise any man to go in until he has viewed the harbour at low water.."
I can find NO indication in the OED that the word has any implication of 'doing something wrong and out of the ordinary', which seems to be the meaning you are ascribing to it. On the contrary, the word is used to describe anticipated hazards which need to be allowed for, rather than avoided.
Various levels of danger are indeed a common and unavoidable feature of life. Occasionally, for instance, I cross a road. When I am doing something dangerous, I will usually take especial care, and monitor my position closely - exactly as you both expect the crew of a ship to do. That is why I said that "Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to lay down safety rules for them". I did NOT say "Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to forbid them". And I CERTAINLY did not say "Such passes are uncommon and cannot be achieved safely..", which seems to be your implication.
Of course, modern journalists and safety activists frequently try to suggest that any activity involving the slightest risk should be banned, and hence should be rare. But I hope that no one counts me amongst their number....
Patronizing or what. Xtian is not a school kid, he's French and will admit that his English is not 100% though most of us can understand his meaning.
He is also a high ranking French naval officer and architect who has served at one time or other with most of the worlds major navies.
Also think before quoting any books at him as he might have written them.
Rant over, now you can have a go at my English.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bryan Young on January 20, 2012, 04:13:50 pm
Just a quickie....Diesel is Diesel whatever it's used for. Ships or small cars, it's the same stuff. Can't just pump water or fuel out of a free flooding tank and expect much to happen. Tank (a "container") must be enclosed. BY.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 20, 2012, 04:22:21 pm
She's carrying heavy fuel oil , discussion last night on one of the news channels said they would need to get access to the tank tops to cut into the steam heating pipes to connect external steam generators to heat the fuel up so it can be pumped out
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Netleyned on January 20, 2012, 04:52:35 pm
What is the 'Heavy Fuel Oil' doing on a ships that is powered with 12 cyl Wartsillas?
Ned
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 20, 2012, 05:04:54 pm
Hello
Yes I also heard that the fuel onboard is the cheaper heavy fuel ... A couple of years ago I've seen that a serie of older cruise where "upgraded" to burn heavy fuel : money is money.
One interresting thing about the actual wreck position is that the hull is moving even if the sea state is quite calm and there is one very small tide. That means she's not so heavy and still have some buoyancy. Nice job and good money for Smit.
Xtian
Thanks DickyD for your comment, it's thrue that my English is a Globish (global English as opposite to pure English). I'm sorry for that and I have to thank you for your indulgence. In fact my English is good to speak with the rest of the world ... but not with English :embarrassed:
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DickyD on January 20, 2012, 05:13:33 pm
Thanks for the PM xtian.
Have sent one to you. :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on January 20, 2012, 05:14:01 pm
Nice one Dicky :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: tr7v8 on January 20, 2012, 06:16:25 pm
What is the 'Heavy Fuel Oil' doing on a ships that is powered with 12 cyl Wartsillas?
Ned
Wartsila make both white diesel/LNG & Heavy Oil engines. I was at the factory for the former just before crimbo. They use 2 different bores as the basic design & go from inline 4 pots to V20s! The gig heavy oil only lumps are built at a different factory.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Netleyned on January 20, 2012, 06:22:16 pm
I suppose it is cheaper to use Heavy rather than white Thought the tree huggers would be jumping on this
Ned
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 20, 2012, 06:24:51 pm
What i as a layman still fail to understand is why the vessal floundered in the first place? i was under the impression that a ship was divided into a watertight compartments with auto closing doors as required. Yes the boat had a rent and may well have some as yet unknown damage . But surely the flooding would have been limited? By the compartments. The Titanic only sunk because the compartments did not go full height and water overflowed from one to the next. What am i missing? Thanks for helping me. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 20, 2012, 06:37:35 pm
Hello
Yes there is compartments and the regulation is very strict for that. Anyway the ship must stay upright and in floating condition with two flooded compartments. Here with a 70meter cut, certainely more than two compartments are flooded.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 20, 2012, 06:43:55 pm
Thank you. Surely more than two compartments flooding should not cause a sinking? Should not a big vessel have many compartments? Any idea how many? John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 20, 2012, 06:47:40 pm
Following my experience with a 90's cruise ship with same size, may I say 20-25 - Some have watertght doors as in the middle of the ship, some dont have and you must going up to leave the compartment and going down on the other one.
After she hit the rock, she stay long time afloat then the list came stronger as she U-turn to the island village, then she stay quite upright for while and then she start to capsize falling on the rock. It's hard to know what would happen if she stay on the deep sea, without u-turn and without going ashore. It need some stability calculations with some factor like water movment in the hull during U-turn and going ashore !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: derekwarner on January 20, 2012, 08:42:45 pm
Deadwood asked.......here is an example of the underwater cutting up process......... :o ....Derek ...sorry wrong link....tyring to Tricolor link....
Yes I also heard that the fuel onboard is the cheaper heavy fuel ... A couple of years ago I've seen that a serie of older cruise where "upgraded" to burn heavy fuel : money is money.
One interresting thing about the actual wreck position is that the hull is moving even if the sea state is quite calm and there is one very small tide. That means she's not so heavy and still have some buoyancy. Nice job and good money for Smit.
Xtian
Thanks DickyD for your comment, it's thrue that my English is a Globish (global English as opposite to pure English). I'm sorry for that and I have to thank you for your indulgence. In fact my English is good to speak with the rest of the world ... but not with English :embarrassed:
Xtian,
Don't worry about the English we in OZ also have trouble understanding English, that's why we speak strine %) %) %) :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Welsh Wizard on January 20, 2012, 09:59:00 pm
http://vimeo.com/35351659
Have a listen to this
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 20, 2012, 10:21:08 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Welsh Wizard on January 20, 2012, 10:37:03 pm
So he crashed it then beached it not far from the first impact very interesting indeed
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 20, 2012, 10:39:52 pm
I think the full facts, when they eventually emerge, are going to be very interesting indeed. At the moment there is a real blizzard of supposition and speculation which makes it very hard to work out the course of events.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 20, 2012, 10:40:23 pm
Patronizing or what. Xtian is not a school kid, he's French and will admit that his English is not 100% though most of us can understand his meaning.
If you read my comment you will note that I have no problem with poor English per se - I will rarely comment on issues of poor grammar unless there is some particular point to make. Many of the comments on this forum are not ideal English, but I think we generally understand what is meant. Poor writing may simply be an indication of deep emotion or a hurried response - as your missing question mark presumably is?
More importantly, I was NOT pointing out any grammatical issue, but rather that Xtian and Davidxq1 seemed to think I was claiming that the manoeuvre should not have been made, when what I was saying was that it was a manoeuvre which demanded caution - exactly the point they made in their responses. So if either of them read this, they might like to know that all three of us are in complete agreement, and that I believe I have understood them adequately. The problem is rather the other way around and in retrospect it would have aided understanding if I had not used the word 'danger' - though I think I have demonstrated that it has exactly the meaning I expected it to have.
I have a problem if people misunderstand what I am saying, and so I respond to it. In this case I had two people who seemed to think I was saying something I was not, so I suspect the issue of nationality is irrelevant here. I just do not like misunderstandings, and your apparent belief that I was attacking someone for poor use of English seems to be yet another one, which needs to be addressed before it gains any further exposure.
Having said that, there is a part of your missive that I do have trouble understanding. That is the assertion that I should refrain from quoting from (presumed) authoritative texts. Why is this?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 20, 2012, 11:03:02 pm
Very interresting video but mostly for the ship course and data like time and speed. The comment is some time just a speculation when talking about current (in mediteranean sea there is no strong current) maybe we have to speak about wind. The comment about the speed at the arrival is also strange as 15 kt is a regular speed for this kind of ship to be manoeuvrable, then she don't have to slow down : she supposed to make a pass not to come into the harbour. The use of bow thruster is not sure as any stopped ship like this one come naturally at 90° to the wind direction - maybe not thruster but only natural turn or maybe really thruster ? Then as image showed, the anchor was dropped : what about that in the comments ?
But very interresting video with the mapping from AIS with all data
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on January 21, 2012, 04:30:00 am
Doesn't that tell you that you might not be making yourself very clear, rather that other people are incapable of understanding what you're saying??
Yes, that is quite true. One should always strive for clarity, and English is such an ambiguous language. This is the reason why I took some time later to explain my use of the word 'danger', which is the word that seemed to cause the misunderstanding. I am not sure why my attempt to clarify what I was saying has caused such opprobrium...
I was interested to see the data in the video showing that the Costa turned to starboard - in other blogs I am watching assertions are being made that the big issue is the capsize, and that the big story should be the failure of current regulations to pay due consideration to the MFS effect - this paper is being freely quoted: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=vassalos+solas+2009&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dft.gov.uk%2Fmca%2Fa11._stab_2007_solas_2009_-_raising_the_alarm.doc&ei=zaAaT8jQL8T24QT9wMDHDQ&usg=AFQjCNHdfNqJ7_Nl3J1IjgW1uUmqtKsxdg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=vassalos+solas+2009&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dft.gov.uk%2Fmca%2Fa11._stab_2007_solas_2009_-_raising_the_alarm.doc&ei=zaAaT8jQL8T24QT9wMDHDQ&usg=AFQjCNHdfNqJ7_Nl3J1IjgW1uUmqtKsxdg) . If the ship did not do a sharp turn to port I suspect that it is less likely that this effect is implicated...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: slug on January 21, 2012, 12:10:12 pm
very sad about the loss of life but this blog on meyham just goes to show what a learned people you are how many seafaring officers writers etc belong to this forum i have found this blog very very interesting such knowledge me just a humble trucker a few years ago a ship ended up across the river at sutton bridge lincs that was cut up in situe with a cutting chain took a few weeks if i remember thanks for all your knowledge i am very humbled keep up the good work slug
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pettyofficernick on January 21, 2012, 05:34:09 pm
In fact my English is good to speak with the rest of the world ... but not with English
Nothing wrong with your English sir, perfectly understandable! :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pettyofficernick on January 21, 2012, 05:45:43 pm
I saw (no pun intended) U539 being sliced up with an endless wire cutter on Wallasey Docks a few years ago, most interesting, and very precise. :-)) :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: John W E on January 21, 2012, 08:27:09 pm
hi ya
question for those who have been on these types of cruises, I wonder, when one originally books and all the paperwork comes through to go on the cruise, in the paperwork is there information on whereabouts all safety equipment is; such as lifejackets; lifeboat station/safety officer etc., information. Or, I wonder if this is all left until one boards the ship?
The reason I am asking this question is - after reading all these posts etc., on the web - about this disaster - I am of the opinion that the liner's owners/travel agents have the attitude of - bit like a cattle market - get those passengers on and off board as quickly as possible - less time spent in port? Little time before the ships sails before going through safety procedures etc aye john
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 21, 2012, 08:42:38 pm
John,
Not much point in having the safety stuff sent to you beforehand as you need to be aboard to make sense of it. On the cruises I have been on, as soon as you get to your cabin the TV is on showing general information about the ship including a rundown of the safety procedures and where to find your lifejacket. There is also a note in your cabin saying that lifeboat drill will be held before sailing and that no one is exempt. The cabin stewards are instructed to ensure that everyone leaves their cabin and reports to muster stations where you are shown how to put on your lifejacket.
It was all taken very seriously on the ships I have been on, I can't speak for the Italians though!
Pic below was taken at Port of Tyne.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 21, 2012, 10:04:34 pm
How seriously do people take emergency muster drills Colin? Do some people just not bother? Do the crews check?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 21, 2012, 10:38:04 pm
I've experienced a drill like that as observer (coast guard team) and it was just like a joke, same as aircraft demo, most people don't care about that ! Tourist are not here for thinking about Titanic experience and crew do that every weeks and like airline hostesses it's just a well known speech. As I heard from the coast guard team I was with, the serious of the drill depend mostly on what kind of tourists, people doing Norwegian or Alaska cruises are more serious than the ones going to Bahamas and Mediteranean sea.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 21, 2012, 10:42:35 pm
Martin.
As I said above, the drills are compulsory. They check that everyone is there and if anyone is missing they are chased up by the crew.On Thomson Cruises they had passenger checklists at your designated lifeboat. On QM2 I think they relied upon the crew ensuring that all passengers were at muster stations. They also check that you have put your lifejacket on properly.
I have heard that anyone who refuses to participate is left ashore.
Passengers seem to take it seriously enough from what I could see but I have only experienced it on British ships and, despite what Xtian says, I don't think people regarded it as a joke. However, from my driving experiences in Southern Europe, I think people there tend to adopt a more cavalier approach to safety issues - maybe it's the Latin temperament.
We often travel on Western Channel ferries though and they don't have safety drills. There is a safety announcement and there are notices around the ship including on the back of cabin doors. On the ferries, lifejackets are distributed by the crew at muster stations whereas on cruise ships you have your own lifejackets in your cabin.
This all contrasts with Model Boat Mayhem events where you have to rely on Steamboat Phil and Stavros to fish you out....
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Tug Hercules Fireman on January 21, 2012, 10:45:12 pm
In photos 5 and 6; What is the protrusion that sticks out of the hull - it looks like a fin??
How seriously do people take emergency muster drills Colin? Do some people just not bother? Do the crews check?
Over 45 years ago on Super Tankers and the larger Liners it was known as the,
THE BOARD OF TRADE SPORTS
unicorn
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 21, 2012, 11:09:59 pm
Humm Colin, not only latin temperament some German British or Norwegian young groups on cruise are there only to drink, dance and fu.. They are not the best passagers for leastening the demo.
I remember also at Nouméa New Caledonia when a P&O cruise ship came from Sydney Australia with a whole "cargo of teenagers", as I heard it's like a tradition for them at the end of the school year to do a travel like that. Same in the US with special teenager cruise : drink, dance and fu..
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 21, 2012, 11:16:15 pm
Well, like I said, I can only speak from my own not very extensive experience. I'm sure the crews do the best they can to manage the risk. There are certainly some stupid people aboard cruise ships of all ages but you don't need to take an IQ test to buy a ticket.
As far as driving is concerned I have driven thousands of miles (kilometres) in Europe and it is very noticeable that the further south and east you go the worse the driving standards become. People simply take more risks.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Eric65 on January 21, 2012, 11:18:19 pm
Regarding the ship rolling over the wrong way, I belive that when a ship looses stability with flooding she can actually roll the 'wrong' way very easily.
There are instances of warships rolling 'away' from the hole in the hull, HMS Kelly was a classic example, although Mountbatten managed to save the ship, there are some excellent photos of her rolling badly with the damaged side of the hull 'up' out of the water.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 21, 2012, 11:23:23 pm
Quote
Regarding the ship rolling over the wrong way, I belive that when a ship looses stability with flooding she can actually roll the 'wrong' way very easily.
From what I'm thinking, at the end of her travel, after the U-turn, the ship was just drifting because of the wind, 90° from the wind direction as every ship like that. By this way it's quite normal to roll on the other side from the wind coming side.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 21, 2012, 11:33:24 pm
cruise ship came from Sydney Australia with a whole "cargo of teenagers", as I heard it's like a tradition for them at the end of the school year
Correct they couldn't care less.
Yes it is an established annual event ????? called schoolies ??????? sanctioned by Government/police, where a large portion of the Gold Coast is fenced off for the schoolies, who are those who kids have completed there schooling to party on, revell, create mayhem, get drunk and as xtian says......... etc.
This is where the youth of today encouraged by their parents who buy and bring the grog, learn life's lesssons and standards and we wonder why OZ has a drinking problem.
Back to the subject.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: pugwash on January 22, 2012, 12:04:36 am
Having travelled on the venice-greece ferries about 20+ times each way - 35000 ton, 30 knots ships, there has never been a safety drill on any trip,on any ferry line, just an announcement stating in case of emergency to listen out for the 6 or more blast on the ships siren and then go to your muster station. Details of you muster station will be found on the inside of your cabin door and lifejackets will be in the cabin wardrobe. That was it for a 22 hr trip in quite a busy sea area The were just treated as sea going buses.
Geoff
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dpbarry on January 22, 2012, 12:19:23 am
Bryan's theory about the captains decision to beach her is what most ships would do in that situation, it is tuff luck that ship that didnt beach on a flat bed, you can see on google map that the entrance to harbour looks soft and flat, there was reports of electrical problems which could mean that see lost propultion and quite had it to the harbour.
Dodgy geezer brings up the point of maybe the bow thruster was used, has far as i can tell the stabiliser fins are retractable, on the ships i work on we have retractable fins and when the fins are out the bow thruster wont start, as far as I know its the same on all ships with retractable fins.
David
Listening to a captain on the radio here in N. Ireland he gave the impression that the boat was doing over 6 knots when whatever happened heppened. The reason he indicated was that the stabilisers have an inbuilt safety mechanism that retracts them below 6 knots - I assume just in case someone on the bridge forgets to retract them as they come in to dock.
Based on its current location, did she do a 180 turn at some stage to end up on her starboard side given that the island should have been on her port side?? Could that be why she landed on her starboard side with stabiliser extended - basically a fast 'handbrake turn'??
Declan
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 22, 2012, 12:29:50 am
Quote
That was it for a 22 hr trip in quite a busy sea area The were just trated as sea going buses.
Yep Geoff, as on IMO regulation a drill must be organized at least before the 24th hour of the trip. If only 22h sailing : no drill ! time is money, and time of the crew is also money !
About the fin I'm thinking that the fin was out during the accident itself (+ 15 kn), no dammage because of the turning of the ship as discribe on the AIS data video (no dammage neither on the bow and aft section of the ship) then after this grounding with the black out because of main engine room flooding + only emergency power, : the low power provided is for essential rescue things as light and no more need to take care of fins.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 23, 2012, 01:20:54 pm
Excuse my ignorance here but I have only seen pictures and video of the huge Wartzilla engines. When the ship is at this angle do they remain in position or tare themselves out of their mountings? regards Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 23, 2012, 02:42:27 pm
Oh no, even if you turn the ship up side down the engines will stay on the right place :D
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidm1945 on January 23, 2012, 04:51:03 pm
As I said above, the drills are compulsory. They check that everyone is there and if anyone is missing they are chased up by the crew.On Thomson Cruises they had passenger checklists at your designated lifeboat. On QM2 I think they relied upon the crew ensuring that all passengers were at muster stations. They also check that you have put your lifejacket on properly.
Hi All,
We had a cruise on the Saga Ruby last year and the Lifeboat/Lifejacket drills were carried out before we cast off from Dover harbour. As you say there were no exceptions and passengers missing from the checklist were chased up by a crew member. We had a question and answer session to make sure we all understood what we had to do. All very efficient!
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on January 24, 2012, 05:03:09 am
Can't vouch for the accuracy, but some of the Aussie press, is now reporting that the change of course, had been approved by the owners. Also, there is speculation that unregistered passengers were aboard, because even with the detailed passenger list, all the bodies cannot be identified from the passenger list. The investigation is now being centred on the owners.
Interesting developments, which may play out like, the off course taking a short cut ore carrier, that went aground in the barrier reef. The owners were found more culpable than the captain and fined accordingly
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 24, 2012, 09:09:10 pm
Costa Concordia: captain's wife says Schettino 'not a monster'
The wife of Francesco Schettino, the captain who capsized the Costa Concordia cruise ship insisted that her husband "was not a monster" but admitted that he had once been fined for taking a motorboat too close to the coast.
Fabiola Russo defended her husband as the death toll from the disaster rose to 16 more than 10 days after the luxury liner smashed into the Tuscan island of Giglio. At least 17 passengers and crew were still unaccounted for.
Ms Russo, 48, said her husband, Capt Francesco Schettino, 52, had been unfairly made a scapegoat for the debacle, which forced the chaotic night-time evacuation of the ship's 4,200 passengers and crew.
The commander, who has been branded "Captain Coward" by the Italian press, is under house arrest at the home he shares with his wife and 17-year-old daughter in Meta di Sorrento near Naples.
"My husband is at the centre of an unprecedented global media storm," Ms Rossi told Oggi (Today), an Italian weekly magazine.
"I cannot think of any other naval or air tragedy in which the responsible party was treated with such violence ... This is a manhunt, people are looking for a scapegoat, a monster. It's shameful."
However, she admitted Capt Schettino had once been fined for steering too close to the coast in the past.
"Our shared passion is canoeing – to paddle together you have to be in symphony, which is what Francesco and I are," she said. "But we got fined once, because we took a little motorboat too close to the coast."
She said her husband had been unfairly branded a coward after it emerged that he took to a life boat during the drama, leaving hundreds of terrified passengers and crew members still aboard the stricken liner.
Audio recordings emerged in which a furious Coast Guard official ordered him to "get back on board, for ----'s sake" and take command of the situation – an order he apparently ignored.
But his wife claimed he was "determined, firm and lucid. He is able to analyse situations, to understand and manage them".
Capt Schettino was regarded as "a maestro" by his crew, his wife said.
Meanwhile the chief prosecutor overseeing the investigation said failings in safety procedures meant that Genoa-based Costa Cruises should also be investigated.
Beniamino Deidda, the chief prosecutor of Tuscany, pointed to "life boats that could not be lowered, crew that did not know what to do, inadequate preparation for emergencies and absurd orders such as the one for passengers to return to their cabins.
"For now, attention is concentrated on the fault of the captain, who showed himself to be tragically inadequate. But who chose the captain? Not all the shortcomings in safety procedures can be blamed on the captain's conduct."
The operation to remove half a million gallons of oil and diesel out of the crippled ship finally got under way, with a barge loaded with drills and pipes mooring alongside the Concordia.
Divers will spend the first part of the operation inspecting the hull, with the removal of the fuel expected to start on Saturday and to take at least a month.
As Italian navy divers blasted more holes in the hull to aid the continuing search for bodies, chairs, tables and passengers' luggage floated out into the sea – just some of the tens of thousands of objects trapped inside the huge vessel.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: nhp651 on January 26, 2012, 08:29:42 pm
The current plight of the Costa Concordia reminds me of a comment made by Churchill.
After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister should chose an Italian ship.
“There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship” said Churchill.
“First their cuisine is unsurpassed................. Secondly,.... their service is superb.
And then, in a time of emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first”.
I wish I had his panache'
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on January 26, 2012, 09:42:58 pm
So great {-)
Thanks for sharing this Churchill comment !
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on January 26, 2012, 10:14:22 pm
Sadly its also possible to get off first if youre rich. Lets hope this story of bribing the crew to get on a lifeboat is false. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 26, 2012, 10:26:25 pm
I phoned the model shop at lunch time.
I asked if they had an Airfix kit of a cruise liner.
They said they had one left of an Italian ship.
I asked them to put it on one side for me.
....... too soon?!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on January 26, 2012, 10:45:00 pm
I had that joke sent to me as a text within 24 hours of it happening Martin , think some of my mates are sick in the head !! %) %) :o :o %% %%
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: philk on January 26, 2012, 11:45:14 pm
i had a text sent to me about this with a george micheal connection but no way i could post it on here
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: nhp651 on January 27, 2012, 07:51:28 am
I asked if they had an Airfix kit of a cruise liner.
They said they had one left of an Italian ship.
I asked them to put it on one side for me.
....... too soon?!
Martin.you are a cad and a bounder sir!!!!!
Title: The Sinking of the Concordia
Post by: dave301bounty on January 31, 2012, 05:41:46 pm
Channel 4 tonight ,at 8 - the story of how it happened ?
Title: Re: The Sinking of the Concordia
Post by: john s 2 on January 31, 2012, 06:32:06 pm
Should be interesting to see. But have all the facts come out? Also could this predudis any court case as the captain could claim biased jurors. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: dodgy geezer on January 31, 2012, 06:55:17 pm
I do not think that the Italian judicial system works in quite the same way as ours, so I suspect they may not have the same concept of abandoning a trial due to inappropriate publicity. The Italian newspapers certainly seem to have prejudged the case to an extreme level!
As I recall, the Italian judge has much greater power to direct the findings of a case - comments from those familiar with the Italian system would be helpful here...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: polaris on January 31, 2012, 08:30:03 pm
Well, from what I have seen of the prog., it leaves little guessing or doubt... eh???
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 31, 2012, 10:43:50 pm
I don't know, there's still something missing from the bigger picture:
The other bridge officers. The delay in declaring an emergency. The lateness of the order to abandon ship. The company orders. The design of modern lifeboats for a listing ship. Why the ship heeled over so suddenly.
... but that's what the inquest should bring out.
You never know, captain Schettino could still end up with an award of some kind for saving so many lives!!!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: polaris on January 31, 2012, 10:49:40 pm
Dear Martin,
I am led to believe the Capt. has interesting reason of how he came to be in a lifeboat?
As to how a 114Kt vessel came to grief like that in the first place does beg some pertinent questions indeed. All else, as you say, is for the Enquiry... but I think some will know where this is going.........
Regards, Bernard
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 31, 2012, 11:03:21 pm
I thought the programme was not too bad considering the lack of technical information so far. I hadn't realised just how many passengers were still aboard after the ship had turned on her side. When you look at the overall circumstances It's astounding that 99% of the passengers and crew got off safely.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: polaris on January 31, 2012, 11:06:31 pm
... but Colin the Register was not total......... no-one seemingly knows what it is/was... this known before the prog.. B.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: mikearace on January 31, 2012, 11:07:12 pm
Apparently in future they are selling their cruises by raffle tickets. This week its a roll over.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: polaris on January 31, 2012, 11:08:39 pm
...how many times........ ! A few to work on. B.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: richtea on January 31, 2012, 11:11:11 pm
According to the translation of the conversation between the captain and the coastguard, the 1st officer was at his captains side, in the life raft.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on February 01, 2012, 10:38:08 am
Oh dear, trial by media yet again.
Strangely enough in an interview with a local lass who was one of the entertainment staff, said that she had sailed with the Captain many times before and he was most proffesional and despite being well versed in the lifeboat and safety procedures as they have to do them at the same time as the passengers, when you have to do it for real, all the training doesn't prepare you for it.
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: polaris on February 01, 2012, 12:04:43 pm
Dear Ian,
I probably have been heavy handed in this. Obviously until the enquiry is finished no-one will know what happened. But, how this vessel came to grief is strange all the same... as to appropriate action when it did happen, well, again, all for the enquiry to determine of course.
Regards, Bernard
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Circlip on February 01, 2012, 01:56:27 pm
No you haven't Bernard, too many questions, some which will probably never be answered but the general public have to have a whipping boy. Too many knee jerk reactions have had to have linament poured on them at a later date in the past.
Was surprised to see it advertised for transmission last night (31st) and another tonight. I trust the channel 4 "Investigaters will be called on at the Italian hearing to give their "Accounts" of the happening. Why compromise a good story at the expense of truth.
Regards Ian.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: malcolmfrary on February 01, 2012, 07:42:36 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 04, 2012, 10:47:49 am
This link shows the actual AIS track of the ship: http://www.qps.nl/download/attachments/6718686/Grounding+Costa+Concordia.wmv?version=2&modificationDate=1326885071126 The notes accompanying it read:
It wasn't that the captain simply sailed too close to the shore, he approached the shore at too sharp an angle and turned much too late - and even then didn't seem to see or notice on the radar the EXPOSED rock that he hit until a few hundred metres before he hit it. The AIS video shows the port side of the ship hitting and "bouncing off" the rock as it turns to starboard - while the forward speed suddenly drops from 16 to 10 and then 8 kts. Hardly surprising that all the dishes crash to the floor - or that when the rock, penetrating further and further into the hull was broken off as it hit a bulkhead!
You can also see that the ship was using side thrusters to take it towards the shore when they decided to beach it - and that it hit the beach a full 70 mins after hitting the rock.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: JayDee on February 04, 2012, 11:57:21 am
Hello,
Been looking at some photos of the huge boulder which is embedded into the side of the ship. What is the large shiny object in the lower left of this photo?.
John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Tug-Kenny RIP on February 04, 2012, 12:30:05 pm
I thought it was my old Bike, until I saw the size of the men. :}
ken
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on February 04, 2012, 03:41:40 pm
This link shows the actual AIS track of the ship: http://www.qps.nl/download/attachments/6718686/Grounding+Costa+Concordia.wmv?version=2&modificationDate=1326885071126 The notes accompanying it read:
You can also see that the ship was using side thrusters to take it towards the shore when they decided to beach it - and that it hit the beach a full 70 mins after hitting the rock.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on February 04, 2012, 04:01:37 pm
John the white is part of the double bottom of the hull I think , it would have been painted white so light from inspection lamps would show as much of the section as possible
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: JayDee on February 04, 2012, 05:28:29 pm
Hello,
I was wondering if it could have been a marker Bouy !!.
John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 04, 2012, 08:56:13 pm
I was wondering if it could be a stabiliser, as the other, is shown extended on the other side????
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: tobyker on February 04, 2012, 09:40:47 pm
I am sure that the captain was paying more attention to the safety of his ship than to the 24-year-old Moldovan lady member of the entertainment staff who was said to be on the bridge with him, whose personal effects were ALLEDGEDLY found in his cabin.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Capt Jack on February 05, 2012, 04:07:52 pm
Thought the stabilizer that was shown was on the same side ???
It is, the 'other side' is under 25 metres of water %)
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Rottweiler on February 05, 2012, 09:26:21 pm
Why would the ship being this close to port, have the stabilisers out anyway? I would have thought they would have been retracted, especially in shallow water? Mick
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on February 05, 2012, 10:12:16 pm
Would it to stabilize the ship in a sharp turn? John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on February 06, 2012, 08:30:50 am
I thought the ship was on a "sail by" and not scheduled to stop at Giglio ....
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 06, 2012, 09:47:39 am
Quote
I thought the ship was on a "sail by" and not scheduled to stop at Giglio ....
Quite! The ship is considerably bigger than the port!
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on March 02, 2012, 09:11:30 pm
'Costa Concordia officers took drugs while on duty and molested women staff': Explosive claims made during investigation into doomed cruise ship
Two former Costa Cruises employees have told prosecutors investigating the Concordia disaster that officers 'took drugs' while on duty and molested female staff members, it was reported in Italy today.
One woman, a nurse identified only as Valentina B and who worked with under fire Concordia skipper Francesco Schettino, claimed he regularly 'used women as goods to be bartered with.'
She described how she had been on the liner Atlantica with spineless Schettino, 52, who is accused of abandoning the Concordia after he steered it on to rocks and left more than 30 people dead, for a month between January and February 2010.
Her damning revelations to investigating prosecutor Francesco Verusio, were published by La Stampa newspaper and she said of her experiences with Genoa based Costa: 'I found corruption, prostitution and drugs.
'Do not tell me it’s my word against them - I saw directly with my own eyes senior officers take cocaine.
'To prove it all you need to do is carry out an examination of their hair.'
Her claims come just days after a cocaine test on strands of Schettino’s hair tested positive for cocaine but his legal team have asked for a second examination as they dispute the results and he has insisted that he does not drink or take drugs.
The nurse, who worked for Costa for a total of seven months between October 2009 and May 2010, made her allegations in more than 5,000 pages of prosecution documents.
They form part of the case against Schettino who is facing charges of multiple manslaughter, causing a shipwreck, abandoning ship when passengers were still onboard and failing to communicate with maritime authorities.
Valentina went on to claim that 'crew members were reduced to virtual slaves by the officers' adding that she left the company after receiving threats and that she was 'still owed money'.
Another former employee, identified only as Mary G said: 'The crew and officers are very superficial when it come to dealing with an emergency. I only worked for Costa for two months in 2010 but a lot of the time officers and crew were drunk.
'At parties a lot of the time we would ask ourselves ‘If there is an emergency who is going to save the ship?’
'I was also molested by a crew member at a lunch once after he had taken drugs. They made me sign doctored work sheets and time sheets. I am taking action against them and it will be in court soon.'
On Saturday a preliminary hearing involving Schettino is due to take place in Grosseto with dozens of passengers from the doomed Concordia expected to attend, forcing the venue to be moved from the town’s court to the theatre which has extra seating capacity.
Schettino was placed under investigation after it emerged he had recklessly altered the Concordia’s course so that he could carry out a sail by salute of the Italian island of Giglio in January but the ship which was carrying more than 4,000 passengers and crew hit rocks which tore a 70 metre hole in the hull.
It is now currently lying partially submerged on rocks just outside Giglio harbour while salvage experts continue to pump off more than 500,000 gallons of heavy duty diesel from the ship’s tanks.
Costa issued a statement which did not respond specifically to the allegations made but which said: 'On board our ships there are strict safety and surveillance measures concerning drugs possession.
'It is not allowed in any way to bring on board, possess, trade or use narcotics, drugs or psychotropic drugs.
'Whichever crew member who possesses, uses drugs or however make some traffic are submitted to disciplinary provisions and disembarked.
'On board there are checks and preventive actions to discourage such behaviours. Both in navigation and in port.
'It is not allowed to consume alcohol in quantity that can impairs the capacity to perform the on board duties. The crew on guard must abstain from the use of alcoholic beverages at least 4 hours before the start of their shift.'
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: DavieTait on March 02, 2012, 10:16:40 pm
there was a report from the Italian Police that they had found traces of Cocaine in samples of his hair so might be some truth to this but not much I'd be willing to bet , all to often stories like this are just bitter former employees out for revenge , wonder if el capitano thought the 2 women mentioned were a bit on the lower deck rough type for him !!!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on March 04, 2012, 01:48:06 pm
Yes this is within the "Chit Chat" Topic, but in the COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS. If someone wants to read about the subject matter this will not include the personal opinions for so many posts about the tabloid press. If you feel that strongly why not start another thread.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: chingdevil on March 05, 2012, 08:11:19 am
The thread has been tidied up to put it back on topic, and the references to different newspapers has been removed.
Brian
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on March 22, 2012, 08:13:19 pm
Any news of the Costa Concordia?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on March 22, 2012, 08:25:39 pm
All the fuel has now been removed with no pollution.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: F4TCT on March 22, 2012, 08:37:41 pm
Found another few bodies today...
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Alan R on March 23, 2012, 01:56:37 pm
Hi Keep an eye on the "Discovery Channel", here in South Africa they a running a programme on Sunday night about what happened. From the trailers I have seen they appear to have got some footage taken aboard the ship, possibly by passengers, also interviews with other "experts" about what happened.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Stavros on April 11, 2012, 10:46:20 pm
Unbelivable footage on this on Channel 4 this evening,just goes to show who was at fault with the evacuation of his ship,he should be keelhauled for his actions
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bill D203 on April 11, 2012, 10:49:23 pm
I'm with you there Dave. I could not believe what i have just seen. Why did he get off?? beats me!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Stavros on April 11, 2012, 10:52:33 pm
Sorry to say this but he was a and I will say it politly a CHICKEN POO POO and in my opinion all his crew should also be facing charges of Murder no doubt in my mind over that.
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Richtea on April 11, 2012, 11:58:41 pm
That Captain should have bought a lottery ticket. How many people can be LUCKY enough to trip up and FALL into a lifeboat ? Don't forget his first officer also managed to get into the SAME BOAT. I think his luck ran out when the Italian Coastguard recorded the conversation that followed.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 12, 2012, 12:02:43 am
Not all his crew Dave. Around 98% of the people on board got off without injury which is pretty amazing and suggests that a lot of the crew actually did a very good job. After all, it wasn't the passengers who lowered all those lifeboats and rafts.
The Captain and a lot of his officers failed miserably and gave no leadership yet the actual loss of life was very small indeed considering the circumstances so some people at least were doing the right thing and should be commended for it.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on April 12, 2012, 01:00:15 pm
Yes most of the passengers got off. But how many more could have been saved with better organization? This is something we may never know. Again luck was came into it that the ship laid over and did not fully sink. To my mind things could have been far worse. No thanks to the brave? captain. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: TheLongBuild on April 12, 2012, 01:33:00 pm
On a Tv Programme last night I heard someone be asked the question something like , "Could we ever have a sinking similar to the Titanic again?" The answer was a definite NO. Personally I would never have said no and something on the grounds of "We have taken every possible action to prevent such a sinking at sea again.. I agree that it is highly unlikely it could happen again but then who would have suspected that concordia would hit a bolder...and sink.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 12, 2012, 09:45:36 pm
Channel 4 tonight?
There's one on Saturday 8:15pm......
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on April 12, 2012, 09:53:26 pm
Of course it is possible to have another sinking. One of the concerns in the Marine World now is how to evacuate 8000 people in say mid Atlantic.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on April 12, 2012, 10:33:58 pm
Thats a very interesting point Bob. Sooner or later its sadly likely that this event will take place Because there are so many varibles. Who knows what would happen. The worst case would sadly mean a loss a lot of people. Has any cruise company ever actually tried as a test an abandon ship test? I suspect not, we can all guess the likely results. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: cos918 on April 12, 2012, 11:12:06 pm
Of course it is possible to have another sinking. One of the concerns in the Marine World now is how to evacuate 8000 people in say mid Atlantic.
Bob
Hi It is worse than that. A lot of trips off from Florida USA have a lot of old people and people with impaired movement on board that need lifts to get between decks as stairs are to much. Take that new jumbo block of flats . If you are on top deck it is a lot of deck down to the Life boats. Have you ever been on a ferry going back down to the car deck when there is may be a mum witha small child or an eldery persion on the stair case and sen how slowy the line moves down the stairs. This is ok for going back down to rejoin your car but on a big cruise ship with 5000+ passengers on board I would fear for the safty of all passengers. Ok there is 2000 crew a high % of that is deck hads or hotel /entermaint staff. There are not many officers on board. In socity to day the like of women and childeren has gone out of the window and it is now every man for himself. Sorry but given a serious event fire or sinking panik will spred and there will be many deaths.
The costa concorida sank very slowy in shallow water stones trow from the shore with water temp that was survibale and yet about 30 dead the question is why. Every one should have made it off that ship with out injery.
john
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Shipmate60 on April 12, 2012, 11:12:26 pm
Not in open ocean, only usual certification tests.
Bob
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: TheLongBuild on April 22, 2012, 01:09:02 am
The costa concorida sank very slowy in shallow water stones trow from the shore with water temp that was survibale and yet about 30 dead the question is why. Every one should have made it off that ship with out injery.
john
Actually managed to watch the Video Clip Documentary, Great to hear a member of the crew advising everybody to return to their cabin while they sorted the technical problem !!! , in some cases to me it seemed as if the crew were being deliberate obstructive but that could have been editing.
See that they are planning to raise it in one peace
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: F4TCT on April 23, 2012, 11:16:54 am
I have yet to watch this program, its all downloaded and waiting.
On another note, it now mentions the salvage has been agreed and they plan to float her.
So does this mean she will one day be back in action or will it be cut up?
Dan
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on April 23, 2012, 11:26:48 am
Its an interesting question as to the ships future. A lot would depend on the insurence company, as to write it off or not. Certainly it may not be a popular ship if its reused. No doubt a name change may be in order. Time will tell. Personally i feel it should be scrapped because of the loss of life. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 23, 2012, 01:15:18 pm
It is due to be scrapped I understand.
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: john s 2 on April 23, 2012, 09:02:33 pm
Thanks Colin. It probably for the best. John.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: F4TCT on April 23, 2012, 11:42:28 pm
I agree.
I remember when I worked aboard the castoro sei, and we were docked in Almeria port. The Costa Serena came in and did a handbrake turn, docked and unloaded a patient and set sail again within 15 minutes. Was quite a spectical actually when there wasn't much breathing room! I remember coming off the vessel and taking a picture
Dan
Title: Re: " COSTA CONCORDIA " ( Salvage )
Post by: Timo2 on April 27, 2012, 09:48:08 am
Hi All
Found 2 webcam links You can watch should be interesting in months to come.
And also this about SALVAGE ??? http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/concordia-salvage-contract-worth-at-least-300-mln/ (http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/concordia-salvage-contract-worth-at-least-300-mln/)
Timo2
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 27, 2012, 01:04:14 pm
Concordia salvage contract worth at least $300 mln
"ROME, April 23 | Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:27pm BST
ROME, April 23 (Reuters)- - The contract to salvage the Costa Concordia cruise liner, won by Titan Salvage of the United States and Italian firm Micoperi, is worth at least $300 million and could cost more, the capsized ship's owner Costa Cruises said on Monday.
The two companies beat Smit Salvage, an arm of Dutch group Boskalis-Westminster and Italy's Neri, which were also on the shortlist to remove the wreck of the ship. Titan Salvage is owned by U.S. group Crowley Maritime Corp .
The vessel capsized off the Tuscan island of Giglio after hitting rocks on Jan. 13. At least 30 people died and two are still unaccounted for. Costa Cruises chief executive Pierluigi Foschi, whose retirement was announced on Monday, said the winning proposal to salvage the ship had best met requirements such as the need to completely remove the vessel while also protecting the environment.
Costa Cruises is a unit of Carnival Corp & PLC .
He told reporters on the sidelines of a conference presenting the plans that the project was the most expensive of those proposed. The base contract would be worth $300 million but "it could also cost more", he said.
An operation to pump more than 2,300 tonnes of fuel out of the vessel was completed last month.
The head of Italy's Civil Protection Agency Franco Gabrielli said the plan was to stabilise the ship by August and refloat it between November and January. The start of salvage operations would also depend on the issuing of necessary permits, he said.
The ship will be towed away and demolished in Italy, Foschi said, though the exact location for it to be moved to is yet to be decided.
Measures will be taken to protect the tourist industry during the summer season. The port of Giglio will remain open during the operation.
After the ship is removed, the seabed will be cleaned of remaining debris and measures will be taken to allow marine life to flourish again. (Reporting By Silvia Ognibene, writing by Catherine Hornby; Editing by Helen Massy-Beresford)"
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 27, 2012, 01:06:31 pm
A job like this, would it be feasible to patch on plates from the outside or is it usually done from the inside?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: lilgoth on April 29, 2012, 09:28:33 am
i would have thought they would place them on the outside...that way the water pressure tries to compress the weld as opposed to stretch it it only has to make it to port, would also make the repairs cheeper as you dont have to struggle getting patches thru the interior decks
and lets face it the repairs will be done in the fastest time by the lowest bidder O0
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on April 29, 2012, 09:42:13 am
It was the high bidder that got the contract. I don't think they will take short-cuts. They may even take a loss on the job according to some experts
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: cos918 on April 29, 2012, 11:36:57 am
the big problem is that she is sat on a ledge. If she slips she will go in to deep water were the salvage cost will go up by a lot. So On this one I dought there will be any corner cutting as if it gos wrong the whole world is watching.
John
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: F4TCT on May 01, 2012, 08:02:13 pm
" give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I will move the Earth" {-)
Wasn't it that bloke Archie Medes wot said that?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on May 15, 2012, 08:19:58 am
Archie was the dozy Greek bloke that spilt his bath. Think it might have the other Greek Mr. U. Clid with the plank, dunno I never was up in the classics (if you see wot I mean) ;D
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Norseman on May 15, 2012, 07:31:47 pm
Nope, it was definitley the guy who invented the screw very clever and he deserves a medal.
and here it is (http://s17.postimage.org/3rxvhxbzv/archimedes_screw.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3rxvhxbzv/)
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidm1945 on May 15, 2012, 07:58:29 pm
It's all Greek to me, mate.... :-)
Dave.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Bob K on May 15, 2012, 08:07:30 pm
Dave (Norseman): I love your technical illustration so much that I may use it as a water ballast system for a static diving submarine. Question: Where you have shown what looks like a handle, should I connect that to a small reversable motor, or fit a couple of 1/96 scale donkeys inside the dry space ?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Norseman on May 15, 2012, 10:00:12 pm
Bob,
Given the option ...........
I'd definitely go with the two small Asses :D {-)
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on May 16, 2012, 12:22:31 am
Bob K said
Quote
Where you have shown what looks like a handle, should I connect that to a small reversable motor, or fit a couple of 1/96 scale donkeys inside the dry space ?
Reversable for what ? The Archimedes' screws pump is to transport water from low to up position : no need a pump on the other way {-) just make a hole O0
Xtian
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on May 16, 2012, 07:53:10 am
Oh, my head hurts with all this science and technology...keep it simple lads. :((
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: armc40 on June 12, 2012, 10:52:49 am
Might have been better all round if the Captain had said it was his wife driving, and let her take the points ?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 12, 2012, 02:25:46 pm
News:
"This is the largest refloat in history," said Captain Richard Habib, head of US salvage firm Titan Salvage, which has teamed with Italian company Micoperi to mount the operation, set to cost more than $300m (£190m) according to the ship's operator Costa Crociere.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: lilgoth on June 13, 2012, 08:06:09 am
they should use the mythbusters tactic... they re-floated a small boat by filling it with ping pong balls O0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKKu0DA5lvM
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on June 13, 2012, 03:09:23 pm
Might take a few dozen to raise the Concordia :(( How many were used in the Mythebuster`s TV show ?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 13, 2012, 03:13:57 pm
12 or 24,000 I think.
That one of my favourite TV moments. Adam is trying to work out how many ping pong ball are required to lift 1Kg... and his rig flops over in the fish talk... the reply to Jamie's gibe wasn't scripted! {-)
BTW: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Xtian29 on June 13, 2012, 04:57:54 pm
Thanks for this link, so good this salvage with ping pong balls. {-)
Can you imagine how many container ships coming from China (the factory of the world) would be need to fill the Concordia ? Nice for the container ships, not so heavy cargo !
A+ Xtian
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Norseman on June 13, 2012, 05:02:52 pm
and those containers would be quite unsinkable too{-)
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 11, 2012, 09:27:21 pm
Costa Concordia captain apologises for sinking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18804850
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: armc40 on July 12, 2012, 12:50:49 pm
Well that's alright then...just don't let it happen again, right !!
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: NFMike on July 12, 2012, 09:40:40 pm
According to that report he said "At that moment, I went up to the deck and ordered the ship to be put on manual navigation and I didn't have command, that's to say being in charge of sailing the ship, that was the officer." Which in my mind roughly translates as "While approaching unusually closely to the shore I told the crew to switch to manual, then wandered off and left them to it, so it wasn't my fault."
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: colin on August 11, 2012, 08:21:35 am
This link was posted previously but they have brought a crane barge in this morning . it has been quiet on the camera for a while now but certainly moving pity you cannot zoom in closer on the camera
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: ardarossan on September 27, 2012, 10:33:07 pm
I assume that the Lloyds List PR department would have also invited all the families & friends of the lost souls to the presentation, which would be followed up by a special screening of Titanic 3D, prior to sending them home with a limited edition T-Shirt and complimentary goody bag.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: cos918 on September 28, 2012, 05:32:35 am
What a joke the boat sunk very slowly 27 people or there abouts die and they get an awarde . This show morden socity reward for failer. Everone should have walked away from that sinking alive. OK some members of the crew did go a good job but as a WHOLE they fail because people were killed. If it was like the Hearld were she sank in 30 sec then thats a diffrent story.
john
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: steam up on September 28, 2012, 09:48:08 am
Sounds a bit like police at Hillsbourgh getting compensation for the stress of the day while the victims receive not a penny piece.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: davidsg1a on September 28, 2012, 11:38:45 am
I think the crew deserve the award, in any emergancy situation onboard a ship there is always going to be a small percentage of crew members that panic, but people forget about the crew that dont panic and do there jobs and save lifes, the crew that did there jobs properly and saved people deserve this and should be recognized for it. Its always a thought for people who work on passengers ships how a proper evacuation would happen in a real emergancy,noboby knows how people will reactate, people who dissagree with things like this are the ones who dont or have never worked on ships.
David :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: ardarossan on September 28, 2012, 02:11:27 pm
I think the crew deserve the award, in any emergancy situation onboard a ship there is always going to be a small percentage of crew members that panic, but people forget about the crew that dont panic and do there jobs and save lifes, the crew that did there jobs properly and saved people deserve this and should be recognized for it. Its always a thought for people who work on passengers ships how a proper evacuation would happen in a real emergancy,noboby knows how people will reactate, people who dissagree with things like this are the ones who dont or have never worked on ships.
David :-))
I don't have an issue with recognising the efforts of 'the crew that did their jobs properly and saved lives' and realise that, despite being trained for such an event, other factors will almost inevitably come into play should the worst happen.
However, as the ship was sailing in the wrong place; it was effectively Captain-less at the time of the accident; and we are led to believe that organisation was lacking with a percentage of that crew did 'panic'.
For the sake of everyone involved in the tragedy, don't you think that, for example, personalised letters of commendation to ALL those assisting the rescue would have been more appropriate, than a public award for Seafaring?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Norseman on September 28, 2012, 02:40:51 pm
I can't see anything wrong with a public acknowledgement for those specific crew members that actually did well.
Dave
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: sailorboy61 on September 28, 2012, 02:55:12 pm
It's part of the crew's job, especially on a passanger ship, to deal with emergencies in a responsible manner, and certainly appreciation should be shown to those that managed their duty and more. The employers who, simply for the sake of a few dollars, euros, rubles or whatever put what effectively were incompetent people, and to a degree that goes as far up as the master, onboard, should also be to blame - back to the old corporate responsibility again. No doubt the haranguing of the master will make a suitable smokescreen for them.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: colin on September 28, 2012, 04:07:56 pm
Some good photos of the salvage operation on the mail website http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161954/Raising-Costa-Concordia-Italian-sunseekers-look-salvage-team-start-year-long-operation-refloat-tow-away-stricken-vessel.html
Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 07, 2013, 09:59:03 am
Costa Concordia: 'Stupid' Tourists Rescued
http://news.sky.com/story/1034333/costa-concordia-stupid-tourists-rescued Coastguards have criticised five German cruise ship passengers who hired an inflatable boat to get a close-up look of the wrecked Costa Concordia liner.
The group, including two children, had to be rescued after their tiny boat was swamped by waves, whipped up by storm force winds. All were suffering from the effects of the cold.
Officials said the party were holidaymakers from the Costa Magica, a cruise liner from the same Costa Cruises fleet as the ill-fated Concordia, which struck rocks last year leaving 32 people dead off the Italian island of Giglio.
The Germans had arrived at Civitavecchia and made their way to Porto Santo Stefano where they hired the boat so they could take a look at the stricken Concordia which is still lying on rocks just outside the entrance to Giglio harbour.
Although they managed to sail the 10 miles from Porto Santo Stefano without any problem, on the return leg the weather suddenly changed and the boat got into difficulties.
But it managed to stay afloat and they were picked up by a coastguard vessel which took them back to the mainland.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Rottweiler on January 07, 2013, 10:55:26 am
A good explanation of how she would be salvaged Martin,I only hope it works! Mick F
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Footski on January 07, 2013, 11:08:15 am
Very impressive.....I wonder who has bought the movie rights?
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Neil on January 07, 2013, 11:42:43 am
very very interesting that, martin..........hope they succeed and there is a documentary made of it's salvage. neil.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Calypso on January 07, 2013, 04:43:31 pm
Thanks for posting this Martin :-))
I too hope that the re-floating methodology will work out well.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on January 11, 2013, 09:11:45 am
BBC: Salvaging the Costa Concordia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19962191
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 11, 2013, 09:53:17 am
Hi all, I watched a documentary last night on Nat. Geographic. It was not the advertised schedule.It was the current Costa Concordia situation with a promise of another but no other detail. Anybody pick up when this was due? regards Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Richtea on January 11, 2013, 02:07:28 pm
Costa Concordia disaster, one year on. National Geographic Channel. 18-00 (6pm) Sunday 13/01/13.
Costa Concordia disaster, caught on camera. National Geographic Channel. 19-00 (7pm) Sunday 13/01/13. Regards Richard
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: roycv on January 11, 2013, 11:14:35 pm
Hi richtea, I shall be there! reagrds Roy
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: heritorasphodel on January 12, 2013, 12:55:45 am
Just watched the One Year On programme, there didn't seem to be much more than there was last year, save a couple of new audio recordings and a few graphics on the salvage operation. Only the last 10 minutes or so seemed to be new stuff.
Andrew
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Calypso on January 12, 2013, 12:40:06 pm
According a Yahoo News article, plans are being made to salvage the wreck between June and September.
Title: Salvaging the Costa Concordia
Post by: dodes on January 28, 2013, 12:26:53 pm
For those who have not seen it, this may interest you. A programe by the USA company 60minutes on salvaging the Costa Concordia. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137223n (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137223n)
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: tt1 on January 28, 2013, 01:59:32 pm
Excellent link Dodes - a nice concise overview.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: colin on April 05, 2013, 08:56:22 pm
Some interesting information on this site inc videos in the press release
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 05, 2013, 09:36:04 pm
Good find Colin! :-))
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Arrow5 on April 05, 2013, 10:09:01 pm
Search youtube for Piero Landini`s channel, over 30 videos taken from various parts of the island using telephoto lens of work on and around the Costa Concordia over the last few months. Recent ones (2 days ago) show arrival of the barge carrying the parbuckle supports.
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 05, 2013, 11:04:51 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: colin on September 13, 2013, 04:52:31 pm
They are looking to start the parbuckling on 16 sept if weather permitting http://www.theparbucklingproject.com should be interesting to watch on the web cam new one on the end of the harbour http://www.giglionews.it/2010022440924/webcam/isola-del-giglio/webcam-traghetto-isola-del-giglio-porto-santo-stefano.html
Regards, Colin
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
Post by: colin on September 13, 2013, 04:54:43 pm
Title: Re: COSTA CONCORDIA - parbuckling starts today
Post by: Martin (Admin) on September 16, 2013, 11:52:51 am
Costa Concordia: How the salvage is progressing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24107501
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24106310
Live Video: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10311659/Costa-Concordia-salvage-operation-live.html
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: dave king on September 16, 2013, 07:06:44 pm
just been watching them starting to refloat the Concordia.unbelivable what they can do now.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: craggle on September 16, 2013, 09:29:58 pm
It won't be floating for a long time, well, it will never float on it's own again.
Today operation is to get the ship upright again and sitting on a big steel platform that has been built underneath it. It will still be very low in the water, I suspect the bows will be under still anyway.
Once it's upright and happily sitting there they can add more big tanks to the starboard side like the ones on the port side and once they are all in place the water can be pumped out of them allowing the ship to float and be towed to a scrap yard for cutting up.
Been watching the operation all day at work on a live feed. Very slow going but compelling viewing. :-) Wonder what will happen to things like furniture, deckchairs Etc. that are still on the upper decks, ebay perhaps...
Craig.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: oldiron on September 17, 2013, 12:21:22 pm
Here's time lapse video of the parbuckling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJNdPdR-rUg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJNdPdR-rUg)
John
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Arrow5 on September 17, 2013, 12:49:01 pm
BBC News at 1pm tuesday (17th Sep.2013) shows crushed balconies on starboard side . A triumph for the engineers so far. I cant wait to see Piero Landini`s YouTube videos when they come on, his previous ones have been superb. I think the telegraph.co.uk time lapse is a better one .
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: tobyker on September 17, 2013, 02:47:03 pm
Congratulations to the engineers. Not even a Mary Rose moment! Engineering is so impressive when done well. I still don't quite see why the cables pulled the ship over rather than pulling the platform up - I suspect they had some fairly hairy Rawlplugs in the reef!
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on September 17, 2013, 02:59:06 pm
{-) O0
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Arrow5 on September 17, 2013, 03:51:49 pm
With a budget of half a billion quid you can get Rawlplugs any size ( or colour) you like O0 I dont think the chains and cables went through the frame, the final part of the rotation was by flooding the water boxes on the port side.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on October 30, 2013, 03:08:17 pm
BBC - Costa Concordia trial: Captain's lover was on bridge http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24735178
A Moldovan dancer who was on the bridge of the Costa Concordia with Captain Francesco Schettino has admitted she was his lover at his trial.
Domnica Cemortan testified that she was in a romantic relationship with the captain and was with him when the cruise ship ran aground off the north-west Italian coast.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on February 10, 2014, 12:56:04 pm
Daily Mail London: Costa Concordia claims another life.
god rest his soul......poor man, and I pray for his family.......what a horrible way to go. bless him
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 14, 2014, 11:23:49 am
BBC: Costa Concordia: Refloating operation begins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28288823
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Arrow5 on July 14, 2014, 12:44:42 pm
Live stream video on www.giglionews.it (http://www.giglionews.it) for general views (3) but close-ups live streaming video as it happens try next post for German link. I think it is afloat and being towed sideways at 1pm today.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Arrow5 on July 14, 2014, 01:02:28 pm
www.qicknews.de/index.php/costa-concordia-live-bergung or search if it doesnt come up {:-{
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: has now started it's final journey
Post by: kinmel on July 23, 2014, 08:18:14 am
Live webcam as she leaves Giglio... http://www.giglionews.it/2010/02/24/webcam-giglio-porto-panoramica/ (http://www.giglionews.it/2010/02/24/webcam-giglio-porto-panoramica/)
Present location and course... http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.92547/centery:42.36566/zoom:8/mmsi:247359600 (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.92547/centery:42.36566/zoom:8/mmsi:247359600)
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 23, 2014, 04:45:51 pm
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 23, 2014, 06:28:14 pm
As/when/if they pull this operation off then the Salvage Master will deserve the biggest medal and largest bonus ever given. An amazing and audacious piece of engineering. DM
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: cos918 on July 23, 2014, 08:05:51 pm
As/when/if they pull this operation off then the Salvage Master will deserve the biggest medal and largest bonus ever given. An amazing and audacious piece of engineering. DM
its called there Bill. would not like to be the person paying for that one. I must say they have done a top job
john
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Arrow5 on July 24, 2014, 08:27:55 am
I read somewhere that the cost so far is $1.2 billion :o
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: boneash on July 24, 2014, 09:26:32 am
I see a Spanish tug involved in the tow is going to GENEVA !!
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 24, 2014, 10:24:51 am
I see a Spanish tug involved in the tow is going to GENEVA !!
And is it going there at 2 knots per hour? (quote from BBC News website yesterday). News Sub-Editors are like Chinese radios - they look good on the outside but their performance is often very glitchy. 8) DM
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Calimero on July 24, 2014, 10:39:52 am
Yeah. I saw that too on Marine Traffic. Genova, Geneva, Genoa ....
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: NFMike on July 24, 2014, 12:12:03 pm
"Italian civil protection service head Franco Gabrielli told the Reuters news agency that "victory" could only be declared when the ship was in sight of the port of Genoa."
Mr Gabrielli is going to look very silly if it sinks (again) 10 miles from Genoa.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Richtea on July 24, 2014, 02:32:31 pm
"Italian civil protection service head Franco Gabrielli told the Reuters news agency that "victory" could only be declared when the ship was in sight of the port of Genoa."
Mr Gabrielli is going to look very silly if it sinks (again) 10 miles from Genoa.
Would make a great artificial reef. :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Dannypenguin on July 24, 2014, 02:39:00 pm
Yeah. I saw that too on Marine Traffic. Genova, Geneva, Genoa ....
Thats more common on MT than it sounds - a cruise ship that's in 'my fleet' had its last known destination in "Genova" a couple of days back...is it how the Italians spell it?
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Calimero on July 24, 2014, 05:06:42 pm
Genova is Italian. Genoa is English. I assume you can (but shouldn't) type anything you want.
Geneva is going to be a bit more challenging for a tug. {-)
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Dannypenguin on July 24, 2014, 06:29:44 pm
Geneva is going to be a bit more challenging for a tug. {-)
I'm sure if the let Mr. Schettino take command... {-)
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Netleyned on July 24, 2014, 06:48:51 pm
I have emailed BBC newsroom to inform them that a Knot is one nautical mile per hour. Giving a speed of 2 knots per hour means as speed of two nautical miles per hour per hour :D
Ned
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 24, 2014, 06:56:57 pm
I have emailed BBC newsroom to inform them that a Knot is one nautical mile per hour. Giving a speed of 2 knots per hour means as speed of two nautical miles per hour per hour :D
Ned
Great stuff, Ned, but I wonder how many of them there also have 'PIN numbers' and use the 'TSB Bank'? We all do it to some degree!
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: kinmel on July 24, 2014, 07:05:21 pm
it's accelerating then, it will be going a fair pace by the time it gets to Genoa :-))
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: CyberBOB on July 24, 2014, 07:07:02 pm
Hah hah, I was just going to write that Netleyned. Should be there soon!
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: roycv on July 24, 2014, 10:56:54 pm
Hi all, I noticed at the begining of the latest cruise ship TV reality show that the narrator said that the ship was 132,000 tons of steel. I gave up shortly afterwards. Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Dannypenguin on July 25, 2014, 09:02:59 am
Hi all, I noticed at the begining of the latest cruise ship TV reality show that the narrator said that the ship was 132,000 tons of steel. I gave up shortly afterwards. Roy
Is that that new one about Royal Princess? :embarrassed: I did watch that (but can't remember that specific part) however if that was said they're wrong in another sense that its 141,000...
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: roycv on July 25, 2014, 10:01:09 am
Hi I think the media are confused by the Gross tonnage which is now used to describe new cruise ships. True displacement i.e. weight of materials that makes up the ship is closer to 70,000 tons if that. And many have aluminium s/s's anyway. So saying 132,000 tons of steel is grossly inaccurate.
Gross tons is a messurement of useable volume, which is why most of them look so awful compared to the grace of the old 'liners'. But the extra volume makes the ship more financially viable. Few of the current cruise ships would want to cross the N. Atlantic during the winter. The Queen Victoria was strengthened to do so but has a relatively low top speed and a somewhat bluff bow and, I read, was most uncomfortable in the crossing a year or so back. regards Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: derekwarner on July 25, 2014, 10:43:35 am
Guys....we model builders may suggest that GWT, DWT, Displacement Tonnes & other common terms of a vessels [mass=displacement] are out of date with modern understanding to the root of history %)
>>:-( >>:-( but we must remember :embarrassed: that a TUN was a measure of a specified sized oak barrel of wine shipped from Spain to England....& hence a wine Tax was imposed on a TUN volume and all of the deviations of a vessels measurement either follow these concepts or branch out into uncalculated waters {-)
Derek
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: GAZOU on July 25, 2014, 11:43:10 am
Barrel of wine shipped from Spain to England
I understands better now >:-o
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: roycv on July 25, 2014, 12:17:31 pm
Hi I think I would like my barrel to come from New Zealand. Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 25, 2014, 12:35:17 pm
Hi I think I would like my barrel to come from New Zealand. Roy
Marlborough? Sauvignon Blanc? Never had a bad or even indifferent one from there. Jean-Pierre I think that at the time these measurements were originated we Brits stole more barrels of wine from Spain than we paid for! You guys were smarter - you didn't let the good stuff out of France! From what I've tasted in the UK it seems the Germans still continue with this practice.... Ref CC, must be halfway to Genoa by now. DM
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Dannypenguin on July 25, 2014, 02:15:49 pm
See below picture I just made, as of 14:13 today. I have added in the previous course upto where MT shows it, and the projected course.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: roycv on July 25, 2014, 03:08:39 pm
Hi Inertia , my choice too. In Co-op at the moment is Explorers S.Blanc. excellent at £10. regards Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: GAZOU on July 25, 2014, 03:42:40 pm
;)
DAVE
The next time when I come in UK I am going to bring some wine for you
You are going to cry when you are going to drink ...............
Very well! Very very well
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: roycv on July 25, 2014, 08:59:10 pm
Hi Gazou, I have just been to the Vineyard hotel Newbury for the judgement of Paris when the French wine industry lost out big time to the Californian in 1976. Check it on the Internet. 19 different wines to identify, got 2 wrong. regards Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 25, 2014, 11:21:23 pm
Salut Gazou, je viens de le Vignoble hôtel Newbury pour le jugement de Paris où l'industrie du vin français a perdu gros temps à la californienne en 1976. Vérifiez sur Internet. 19 vins différents à identifier, a obtenu deux tort. concerne Roy French are imbecile!
They have taught the Californian, the Australians, in New Zélandais to make some wine. Some French stayed in these countries ............
And it is Americans which judge wines
We sometimes find of her "xxxxx" of ass with good notes And excellent wines with bad marks
Look for the error .................
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: inertia on July 27, 2014, 01:05:07 pm
Piesporter Michelsberg and Mateus Rose were developed for American ladies who wanted something sweeter and weaker than decent wine. They deserve each other. These are the same people who won't drink Chianti unless the bottle is "the right shape" and covered in wicker. There may be somewhere such a beast as an American wine expert, but I doubt if there are two. My most memorable experience of Americans and wine was watching a barman at a hotel in Dallas unload a case of a rather nice-looking Bordeaux and put every bottle into a large bin which was full of ice. When I remonstrated with the guy he reminded me that I was a "limey" (how quaint); that he was the expert on drinks (I think not; he was all of 19) and that limeys also like our beer warm (it's actually ale). He didn't seem to understand what "philistine" meant, let alone the adjective which accompanied it! DM
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Colin Bishop on July 27, 2014, 05:47:06 pm
I hope the drink he subsequently served you wasn't amber in colour Dave! Colin
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: CyberBOB on July 27, 2014, 06:08:00 pm
All beer in that establishment has been "passed" by management.
Title: Costa Concordica Sinking
Post by: Stavros on February 11, 2015, 10:13:27 pm
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: jarvo on February 11, 2015, 10:47:17 pm
Also a question of other officers not taking control of the ship as the Captain sailed into dangerouse waters.
Mark
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 11, 2015, 11:04:44 pm
Taking command away from the captain is a very unusual thing to do unless he has quite clearly gone bonkers or is drunk in charge!
Obviously the captain was careless, incompetent and subsequently both indecisive and cowardly in his actions but he didn't actually mean to sink his ship so who is to say just what a fair sentence is? One has to assume that the court took into account all the circumstances so it is rather beyond our competence to second guess the sentence. The prosecutors were asking for a longer term the defence hoped for less. Whatever the end result the captain's life is now ruined which is probably fair enough in the circumstances.
Colin
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: NFMike on February 11, 2015, 11:32:15 pm
Found guilty of manslaughter, which is about right. He didn't set out to kill people (well, probably). In road terms it was dangerous driving. Considering the sentences people convicted of actual murder seem to get these days I think 16 years is probably fair.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: cos918 on February 13, 2015, 06:39:09 pm
It is good that the captain got a jail time. No one should have died . The boat partially sank next to land in warmish waters and took several hours to do so. This gos to show how sloppy the company were bit like TT at the time of the Hearld
john
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 13, 2015, 06:47:49 pm
Quote
This gos to show how sloppy the company were bit like TT at the time of the Hearld
Not altogether sure what point you are making there...
Colin
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: cos918 on February 13, 2015, 07:19:58 pm
TT were found to be poor in there safty in the herld enquiry . Costa has all the hall marks . No should have died on that boat. Costa company might not have sailed the boat on to rocks but there poor acident / evacuation planning management is what got thoes people killed. The boat sank very slowly in warish water and was upwright for most of the time .Every one should have got off that boat with out a scratch ,that why I think costa are sloppy when it comes to safty
john
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 13, 2015, 07:41:56 pm
I wouldn't disagree with that. The Captain and officers were certainly incompetent in dealing with the immediate effects of the grounding.
Colin
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 02, 2016, 10:29:42 pm
Costa Concordia captain's appeal rejected:
Florence’s appeals court has upheld the 16-year jail term for Francesco Schettino, the captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship, which sank off Italy in 2012 leaving 32 people dead.
Costa Concordia Salvage Documentary - youTube: https://youtu.be/jWJ0JiYmhMU (https://youtu.be/jWJ0JiYmhMU) ( A little over dramatic narration but interesting nonetheless )
Thanks Martin, that was the best start to finish record I have seen (as you say a liitle over dramatic commentary !)
Is Captain show-off medallion man still at liberty ?
Mike
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: MikeK on January 15, 2017, 01:19:41 pm
Just read the Mail - he got 16 years for manslaughter, forget my question ! :-))
Mike
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 15, 2017, 04:03:36 pm
On February 23, 2013, the office of the prosecution at Grosseto announced that it had initiated legal proceedings against Schettino. He was accused of multiple manslaughter, causing a maritime accident, abandoning ship with passengers still on board, and lack of cooperation with rescue operations.[23] In the spring of 2014 the trial started at Grosseto where the Teatro Moderno was transformed into a courtroom to handle lawyers of about 250 co-plaintiffs and about 400 scheduled witnesses.[19] While the other parties involved could plea bargain, Schettino's request to strike a plea bargain[19] was denied. By the time Schettino had his first appearance on December 2, 2014, he was left as the sole person to be accused of manslaughter.[24] "Schettino is (now) the only defendant, but he is not the only one responsible," opined Daniele Bocciolini, lawyer for some survivors. "He's not responsible for the lifeboats that couldn't be launched nor for the (failing) emergency generators".[25]
In his defence, Schettino explained that the sail-by salute was intended to pay homage to other mariners and, for business reasons, to present passengers a nice view. He denied that he did this to impress a Moldavian dancer whom he had brought to the bridge.[26] He indicated that his actions saved the lives of many after the ship hit an uncharted rock. Schettino accused some of his crew of misunderstanding and botching his orders. In 2013 he had already indicated that his helmsman, Jacob Rusli Bin, failed to follow his orders and made an error in changing the course of the ship.[15] Further, he blamed defective generators and flooding of compartments for aggravating the situation.[27] His lawyer indicated that it was these malfunctions that led to the fatalities, whereas Schettino did not kill anybody when the ship hit the rock.[24]
At the end of the proceeding, the public prosecutor Magistrate Maria Navarro asked for a jail sentence of 26 years and three months.[27] Confirming the charges, she parsed jail times as follows: 14 years for multiple manslaughter, nine years for causing a shipwreck, three years for abandoning the vessel and three months for failing to contact the authorities when the accident happened.[23] Navarro accused Schettino of lying during the trial as well as in public interviews prior to trial.[27][28] Prosecutor Stefano Pizza stated, "The captain’s duty to be the last person off the ship is not just an obligation dictated by ancient maritime rules, it is also a legal obligation intended to limit the damage to those on the ship."[28]
Schettino's lawyers rebutted the charges and indicated that the disaster was a collective failure for which he should not be made the scapegoat.[16]
On February 11, 2015, after a 19-month trial, Judge Giovanni Puliatti read the verdict sentencing Schettino to 16 years in prison and five years of interdiction from navigating.[29][30] The 16-year verdict is composed of 10 years for manslaughter, five years for causing the shipwreck, and one year for abandoning his passengers.[16]
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: derekwarner on January 15, 2017, 09:39:50 pm
The mercantile Insurance created in the Tea Rooms of London all those years ago :o as what we generally know as Lloyds of London [or any similar group] may or may not play any part in these secondary proceedings.....
[Insurances <*<....yep who will pay for all of this <*<?...you and me with our motor vehicle or home insurance being slugged?]
The publically quoted cost to remove the vessel exceeded the cost to build her, the loss of the profit that could have been generated by the vessel in her design life, the cost of all forms of Litigation ....[both Governmental and subsequent personal liability costs and damage claims for loss of life]
Here is the publically listed detail of the Carnival Corporation......with assets and trading figures of these magnatutides it may just well be that Carnival carries it's own insurance [liabilities or and consequences]......
I certainly do not know the answer, however suspect that the operations provided by the Carnival Group may have been commercially uninsurable?
Derek
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: Martin (Admin) on May 12, 2017, 08:10:45 pm
BBC: Costa Concordia captain's sentence upheld by Italy court
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39903968
Italy's highest court has upheld the 16-year jail sentence given to the captain of the Costa Concordia, which capsized in 2012 killing 32 people.
Francesco Schettino had handed himself in to the Rebibbia prison in Rome after the verdict, his lawyer said.
Schettino was sentenced in 2015 after a court found him guilty of manslaughter, causing a maritime accident and abandoning ship.
The cruise ship capsized after hitting rocks off the Tuscan island of Giglio.
Schettino was nicknamed "Captain Coward" by the media, after the coastguard released recordings of him in a lifeboat resisting orders to return to the stricken vessel.
Prosecutors say he steered too close to the island to show off to a dancer, Domnica Cemortan, who was with him at the helm.
But he blamed communication problems with the Indonesian helmsman.
The court ruling was welcomed by a lawyer representing relatives of the victims, who said it represented justice at last.
The sentence included 10 years for manslaughter, five for causing the shipwreck, one for abandoning the ship before passengers and crew were clear, and one month for lying to the authorities afterwards.
Costa Crociere, the company that owned the ship, sidestepped potential criminal charges in 2013 by agreeing to pay a €1m ($1.1m; £769,000) fine.
Five of Schettino's colleagues were also jailed for up to three years in earlier cases.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia: Sinking and recovery?
Post by: ballastanksian on May 12, 2017, 10:36:31 pm
Excellent news. Small comfort to the families of the deceased I know, but all the same, that is one situation the coward couldn't escape from.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: roycv on May 13, 2017, 12:04:59 am
I agree it was a needless accident. From the technical point of view this was a very modern ship but it had reverted in design to a conventional propeller. If this had been an azimuth drive propulsion system I was thinking it might have been a lot worse as it would pivot on the much lower propellers and may have turned over. Any comments on that?
On the other hand the ship may not have been sailed that close to land anyway with the extra draft needed. Am I right in saying that Carnival do not commission azimuth drive ships any more? I seem to remember reading something like this. On the insurance side I think some 'Names' from Lloyds insurance may have taken a big hit. regards Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: tony52 on July 11, 2017, 10:02:40 pm
Some interesting photographs inside the wreck by photographer, Johnathon Danko Kielkowski. He couldn't get a permit and swam to the vessel in the dark with camera gear etc towed in a rubber dingy.
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: Martin (Admin) on August 18, 2019, 10:55:14 pm
The dismantling of Costa Concordia
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 03, 2020, 05:01:00 pm
Intersecting Facts About the Costa Concordia sinking
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: roycv on July 03, 2020, 07:39:31 pm
Commentators, do not seem to have grasped the differences between Gross tonnage and displacement yet.
I recall the Titanic displaced 46,000 tons. CC at a guess was probably 50000 tons displacement, maybe a little more, difficult to compare with different design considerations. More power being required for the extensive air conditioning in the modern ship. But cleaner lines (less space) required for Titanic to travel comfortably in the N. Atlantic.
But in reality not much difference in dispacement between them obviously modern materials mainly aluminium in the s/s have enabled a larger ship to be constructed.
But one is a cruise ship and the other a liner, the latter needs stronger bows for the rough N.Atlantic. The original hull designated for Q.V. ended up a different ship then another hull was designated to be Q.V.,strengthened and redesigned with an extra 5000 tons of steel in the bow section to enable her to safely cross the N. Atlantic in the winter.
There are pictures of the Queen Victoria crossing the Atlantic, just glad I was not on board! They were taken when travelling with a much safer riding QM2. I have travelled in a sister ship Queen Elizabeth at 20 knots into a 50 knot gale headwind, she was quite stable but the seas were not like the N.Atlantic. Nobody was allowed on deck, everything was tied down as well.
regards Roy
Title: Re: Costa Concordia
Post by: Colin Bishop on July 03, 2020, 07:58:05 pm
Spot on Roy. The old ships had to devote far more space to boilers, engines and machinery so gross tonnage was much less. Today's cruise ships are more efficiently built and draw less water to enable them to get into cruise ports that the older deep draughted ships could never have managed. We have crossed the Atlantic on QM2 which is far bigger that the old Queens but the old Queen Mary actually displaced more that the QM2, 80,000 tons against 76,000 tons.