Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: pettyofficernick on February 03, 2012, 08:21:30 PM

Title: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: pettyofficernick on February 03, 2012, 08:21:30 PM
It would appear that HMS Dauntless is to be deployed to the South Atlantic. Routine says MOD, but is it, considering the current fuss he Argies are making?
 <*< <*< <*<
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16810417
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: john s 2 on February 03, 2012, 08:28:29 PM
As the runway is vital to the protection of the Falklands. It would appear that the ships deployment is to prevent its loss. I do wonder how well the ship would perform if challenged. Hopefully its being there will be a big enough detterent. John.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: The long Build on February 03, 2012, 08:50:15 PM
What is the state of the Argentinian forces compared with last time.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: derekwarner on February 03, 2012, 09:11:06 PM
In Australian television news....we are viewing footage of the violent protests & brick throwing by the  <*< <*< <*<Falkland nationals against the arrival of Lt Wales.......

I do not question the motives of the young officer......however wonder if the protests had escallated specifically due to his heritage ....both past & future?.........

Really no different to his younger brothers stint in Afganistan when exposed by the worlds press...... >>:-(...........Derek
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 03, 2012, 10:21:10 PM
Quote
What is the state of the Argentinian forces compared with last time.

I did read the other day that the Argentinians are still using the same Skyhawk aircraft they employed 30 years ago, less the ones shot down of course.

Colin
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Rex Hunt on February 03, 2012, 10:27:56 PM
Flt Lt Wales (RAF) is a serving Officer,the same as any other and as such should not be exempt from any posting.
I hope people realise he is flying A RESCUE helicopter with a humanitarian role.
It is normal for ALL aircrew on the Rescue squadron to be detached in turn for their 'stint down South'

Good Luck to him......he is doing better than HRH Royal Marines(failed)!

Rex
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 03, 2012, 10:31:58 PM
Wouldn't it be interesting if he was involved in rescuing the crew of an Argentinian fishing boat? Would it be appropriate to use EU fishing quota rules and throw them back?
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: derekwarner on February 03, 2012, 11:47:24 PM
Rex....I do not dispute nor question any of your comments here about ...'Flt Lt Wales (RAF) as a serving Officer' ........ however his current posting appears questionable

The media in Australia suggested that the withdrawal of Prince Harry from Afghanistan was for the safety of his fellow Officers & men...lest some dingbat terrorist  >>:-( or insurgent  <*< used the Prince as a target

Could not the same issue be considered as valid with Flt Lt Wales & his fellow Officers & aircrew members? ...

Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: ZZ56 on February 04, 2012, 12:22:09 AM
If Argentina wants to take over a part of the British Empire and control it for themselves, why not just emigrate?   {:-{ :P
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Grub on February 04, 2012, 12:42:19 AM
Seems to me the Argentinians are whipping up anti British hysteria in South America, so it wouldn't surprise me if they boycotted the Olympics which then should of course make it easier for us in the football {-)
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: gingyer on February 04, 2012, 12:51:04 AM
Rex....I do not dispute nor question any of your comments here about ...'Flt Lt Wales (RAF) as a serving Officer' ........ however his current posting appears questionable

The media in Australia suggested that the withdrawal of Prince Harry from Afghanistan was for the safety of his fellow Officers & men...lest some dingbat terrorist  >>:-( or insurgent  <*< used the Prince as a target

Could not the same issue be considered as valid with Flt Lt Wales & his fellow Officers & aircrew members? ...



That was because he was in a war zone and an Australian
News outlet had started posting his exact position on the web!!!


Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: irishcarguy on February 04, 2012, 07:56:55 AM
I would love to see the Falklands declared a republic in its own right by Britain and the UN, & then apply for NATO membership & a seat at the UN. Let the Argentinians chew on that for a while. Oh what fun that would be. Mick B.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: john s 2 on February 04, 2012, 09:00:52 AM
Its an interesting idea about Nato and the UN By the time that lot had reached any sort of decision the Argies would have forgotton what the origenal plan was. John.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: nhp651 on February 04, 2012, 09:39:54 AM
If Argentina wants to take over a part of the British Empire and control it for themselves, why not just emigrate?   {:-{ :P

I wonder if you would emigrate to somewhere other than your home, if the Yanks or the Ruskies or the chinese invaded your home country because they thought they fancied your home turf.......I THINK NOT!!!! %% %% %% %%
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: malcolmfrary on February 04, 2012, 10:01:39 AM
30 years ago the Argentine had a far right wing government and domestic unrest that they needed to distract a repressed population from.  We had a far right wing government that was intent on cutting back our armed forces, an early part of which was the removal of the RN presence from the area.  They saw the opportunity and took it.  Had they been able to wait another year, the only thing that we could have raised would have been a diplomatic protest.
Now they have a right wing government with a domestic situation that they would like to distract their population from, we have a right wing government intent on reducing our armed forces.  Since we have now eliminated our mobile airports and the aircraft to go with them, they know that they only have to be lucky once.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: triumphjon on February 04, 2012, 11:53:18 AM
there is only one reason the argies want the falkland islands  OIL  ! i have it  on good authority its been found and they are in the process of extracting it , at the present moment its being funded through a sister company in the uk , namley the gosport ferry company ! !
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on February 04, 2012, 12:04:45 PM
there is only one reason the argies want the falkland islands  OIL  ! i have it  on good authority its been found and they are in the process of extracting it , at the present moment its being funded through a sister company in the uk , namley the gosport ferry company ! !

They have to finance the new 'international terminal' on the Gosport side somehow, can't write it off like Duckhouses.....
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 04, 2012, 12:08:46 PM
I wonder if you would emigrate to somewhere other than your home, if the Yanks or the Ruskies or the chinese invaded your home country because they thought they fancied your home turf.......I THINK NOT!!!! %% %% %% %%

Seriously it is happening. O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 04, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
Its an interesting idea about Nato and the UN By the time that lot had reached any sort of decision the Argies would have forgotton what the origenal plan was. John.

Just a little nit pic to show am following the thread, NATO is, North Atlantic whereas Falkland Islands is Southern hemisphere like OZ.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 04, 2012, 12:34:15 PM
I think people need to read the papers and understand that the Argentininans would not be able to invade like they did last time.
Last time the islands were only defended by a small detachment of marines who did Stirling service to defend the islands but were hopelessly outnumbered.  Now there are a large force of British army and RAF personnel with three RN ships patrolling the area.  The Argentininans would not stand a chance against modern destroyers like the Dauntless and modern fighters like the Typhoon who guard the air space.
People are saying we need an aircraft carrier and Harriers to defend the Falklands because that's what happened thirty years ago, but I mentioned earlier they have to get past a Type 45 destroyer which can engage multiple targets at once and 5 Typhoon fighters (which even the Yanks will not fight against) which can out manoeuvre any aircraft in current service worldwide and carry huge amounts of anti aircraft missiles.  The Argentininans as pointed out by Colin still only have what they had 30 years ago so what chance would out of date aircraft (which were out of date 30 years ago) have against all that?

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: bobk on February 04, 2012, 12:55:22 PM
I believe the retirement of HMS Endurance in February 1982 was a significant factor in indicating our lack of resolve in supporting the Falklands community, plus PM Thatchers statement to the Party at the same time that she believed the small detachment of Marines were sufficient to deter invasion.  This only a month after the unauthorised landing by scrap metal ship Constantino Davidoff on South Georgia.  If only the clear warning signs were heeded . . .
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: ZZ56 on February 04, 2012, 08:57:17 PM
I wonder if you would emigrate to somewhere other than your home, if the Yanks or the Ruskies or the chinese invaded your home country because they thought they fancied your home turf.......I THINK NOT!!!! %% %% %% %%

No, I'm talking about Argentinians emigrating to the UK, not Falklanders leaving the islands.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 04, 2012, 09:09:35 PM
I think people need to read the papers and understand that the Argentininans would not be able to invade like they did last time.
Last time the islands were only defended by a small detachment of marines who did Stirling service to defend the islands but were hopelessly outnumbered.  Now there are a large force of British army and RAF personnel with three RN ships patrolling the area.  The Argentininans would not stand a chance against modern destroyers like the Dauntless and modern fighters like the Typhoon who guard the air space.
People are saying we need an aircraft carrier and Harriers to defend the Falklands because that's what happened thirty years ago, but I mentioned earlier they have to get past a Type 45 destroyer which can engage multiple targets at once and 5 Typhoon fighters (which even the Yanks will not fight against) which can out manoeuvre any aircraft in current service worldwide and carry huge amounts of anti aircraft missiles.  The Argentininans as pointed out by Colin still only have what they had 30 years ago so what chance would out of date aircraft (which were out of date 30 years ago) have against all that?Nick B

Surprise.

Complacency and a "I can beat them any time attitude" has lost many a battle.
For example, take the Iraelies when the Egyptians cossed the Suez, Egypt caught Israel napping and beat them hands down.
However due to rapid counter attacks, lack of Arab support  etc etc etc Israel was able to prevail.

Saddam rattled hi sabre and look what it cost.

Moral of the story, take the sabre away, or stop it rattling now, otherwise pay the consequences.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: nhp651 on February 04, 2012, 09:10:42 PM
Ahh, sorry, wrong end of the stick..........can't comment on that scenario as I haven't got a clue who enters this country anymore. %% %% %%
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: john s 2 on February 04, 2012, 09:21:12 PM
Niether does the Government or immigration control. John.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 04, 2012, 10:05:26 PM
Niether does the Government or immigration control. John.

Likewise in Australia <:( <:(
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 09:07:08 AM
Hi RaaArtyGunner

I don't think you can accuse the British Armed Forces of being complacent especially in this day and age, thirty years ago the Royal Navy was very complacent in believing that their ships could retake the Falklands with very little loss to ships and men, but you complain that we should stop sabre rattling.  I think you should read history and realise that it has been the Argentinians who have been sabre rattling the only difference this time is that we have reacted accordingly to show them that we will defend the islands instead of ignoring them like the last time.  The 'I can win any time' attitude is not deserved in this case we are providing a strong opposition to any attack, once again something that was not done last time, the big difference this time is that we are ready for them and by providing a show of force to make them understand that they have no reasonable chance of success of attacking the Falklands.  The examples you provided are all valid but do not apply to this situation, its like the Battle of Britain 1940 if we did not have that ditch (I mean channel) between us we would have been defeated like France, the sea between Argentina and the Falklands is the same, the enemy has to come to you not vice versa.
Regards

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 05, 2012, 12:37:25 PM
Bottom line never underestimate your enemy, no matter how superior you feel you might be, or how much better your technology. Look at the US v Taliban???????????????

The previous examples, served to illustrate what can happen, when you don't get on top of/stop the sabre rattling by either side.

The Sky hawks may be old, but what of their missiles, last time they used Exocets to good advantage with inferior delivery platforms. This time??????

Regrettably those at the top forget the lessons learnt and have to relearn them all over again.

One of the posters seems to indicate, that similar conditions, Politically and military, exist  today as back then, hence the Argentinians are rattling their Sabres again.

Will history repeat itself. Hope not.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 01:05:42 PM
Hi RaaArtyGunner

Please don't take offence at what I am saying in this post but you do seem to be confusing the style of fighting employed in Afghanistan and Iraq with the only way of fighting an island nation such as the Falklands.  I agree that all the might and tech used by the US and the allies in the Middle East is a hit and miss kind of war/conflict where the enemy is not a nation but a group of men who use guerrilla sytle tactics but the only way Argentininans forces to attack is fly or sail across an open stretch of water for all to see.  Also not to be a nit picker but the old Skyhawk did not launch the Exocet missiles which did so much damage, it was the Super E's coming at supersonic speeds at low altitude, and whilst you may think that lessons have not been learnt or forgotten the Type 45 is the direct result of the mistakes made by the Navy 30 years ago being corrected.  I hope it does not come to war but if does the Falklands will be defended with an over welming force to make sure that what happened 30 years ago does not happen again.
Regards,

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Netleyned on February 05, 2012, 01:16:33 PM
I type 45 does not constitute a task force.
OK its multitasking but it is limited against
a squadron of ships from the mainland.

A task force from Argie will be there before a couple of ships
from UK that is if we have a couple to send

Ned
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 05, 2012, 01:22:10 PM
RaaArtyGunner,
Politicians never learn the lessons of history.
In Afghanistan the British Empire could not subdue the locals and we lost a whole army there.
The Russians tried and failed using overwhelming firepower.
Why should we suceed.
This is a typical "Mission Creep" scenario.
The reason for being there was to remove the terrorist training camps then went to invasion!!

Bob
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 01:38:14 PM
Ned

Remember it only required one ship (Tirpitz) to tie up the entire British home fleet just by its presence in Norwegian waters in WW2!
Last time we had to retake the islands from the Argentininans the idea this time is to prevent them, would they take the risk of loosing a large proportion of their air force and Navy when last time they were virtually unoposed, they would not take the risk of leaving their country undefended similar to the fact that we would not send every aircraft and ship to some far ends of the world leaving the UK undefended.
The Argentinian fleet still only consists of the WW2 vessels apart from the Type 42 destroyers we flogged them thirty years ago, talk about selling to the enemy!
Regards

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: kinmel on February 05, 2012, 03:39:36 PM

Last time we had no weapon systems in the south Atlantic with which  to destroy the enemy airfields and retaliate for the bombs dropped.

Now we have Trafalgar Class subs down there carrying Tomahawk missiles and Spearfish torpedoes, an entirely different kettle of fish.

If the Argentinians drop bombs on The Falklands next time, they just might get some landing on their country too.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Last time we had no weapon systems in the south Atlantic with which  to destroy the enemy airfields and retaliate for the bombs dropped.

Now we have Trafalgar Class subs down there carrying Tomahawk missiles and Spearfish torpedoes, an entirely different kettle of fish.

If the Argentinians drop bombs on The Falklands next time, they just might get some landing on their country too.

I think it would legal too, the UN declared that the Falklands were British in 1982 after we retook the islands.  I don't want to see us retaliate by destroying their mainland defences but if they attack when they know international law has decread that it is not their territory. Perhaps the  only way to prevent massive loss of life maybe is to target military targets in Argentina, let us hope they see sense and act in accordance to international law and leave the Falklands alone.

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: DavieTait on February 05, 2012, 04:28:52 PM
A single Tomahawk missile can put an airfield out of action for days just by destroying the cross over section in the runways ( makes a rather large and deep hole !! ) so 6 fired from a UK SSN would put all the major Argentinian airfields out of action so they might get their aircraft over the Falklands but they'd not be able to launch again as the airfields would be hit between raids so buying us the time to reinforce the islands defences.

The only dodgy thing is that the Argentinians base their Mirages and Super Etendarts aboard the Brazilian carrier Sau Paulo although Brazil wouldn't want to get involved , they would loose far too much trade with the UK and EU if they did
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: kinmel on February 05, 2012, 04:57:02 PM
The only dodgy thing is that the Argentinians base their Mirages and Super Etendarts aboard the Brazilian carrier Sau Paulo although Brazil wouldn't want to get involved , they would loose far too much trade with the UK and EU if they did

Such action would be clearly hostile; I doubt a 50 year old ship could survive a Spearfish attack, let us hope the Belgrano story is well remembered
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: DavieTait on February 05, 2012, 05:37:37 PM
I'd be willing to bet that if the Mirages and Super E's are on the Sau Paulo and hostilities break out the captain will have them struck below and the pilots/engineers interred just to keep Brazil officially out of any fighting. Would be very handy for us if that happened as the bulk of the effective airforce the Argentinians have is their 40 year old Mirages and Super E's
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: john s 2 on February 05, 2012, 05:46:35 PM
The problem with planes is that they fly and somewhat quickly. If the planes are at precent carrier based then to move them onshore would be a quick job. As said its not likely that Brazil would want to get involved. I do wonder what we are not being told? Is Britain playing safe or does the MOD know more? John.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 06:31:03 PM
John s

Of course the MOD are keeping info to them selves after all there has to be secrets in all wars or potential wars.
They have learnt from the last falkland conflict not to trust the media with any info regarding the military.  The best example was the planned attack on the Argentinian airfields and aircraft by the SAS which was cancelled because the BBC announced the night before the attack that what a perfect target that the Argentinian aircraft all lined up on the runway were and how easy the SAS could destroy them!
The other was the announcement also made by the BBC about the planned attack on Goose Green the day before the actual attack, how many lives were lost because of the BBC announcements?
If the media kept its mouth shut regarding what could happen and kept to reporting news that has happened less lives would have been lost on both sides.  It made many people question whose side the BBC was on!

Nick B
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: john s 2 on February 05, 2012, 07:34:45 PM
Theres a lot of truth in what you say Nick. Sadly modern reporting can and does cause problems for the military. I wonder if saterlite imaging is showing the movement of troops boats plane etc, in Argentina? John.
Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: RaaArtyGunner on February 05, 2012, 10:36:52 PM
Am not taking any offence, just being Devils Advocate.

It beggars the question that something has changed, ie politically, armed might etc, otherwise their would be no sabre rattling by Argentina and the response.

Regretably the UK who are politically correct to madness, like us adhere to rules of engagement which cost unnecessary lives, but not the enemy.

Don't forget the time delay, in getting your "forces to the field of battle", their vulnerability along the way, and maintaining them whilst there.

Forget about blaming the press, you can't hide that kind of movement of ships and equipment. Also why is it not conceivable, that stuff was leaked to the press, to "frighten" Argentina, look out the big stick is coming. Well hello, I have time before it gets here and I wont make the same mistakes twice.

Israel beat Egypt on previous occasions, but they (Egypt) learnt valuable lessons, awaited their time, and succeeded, although it was short lived, only because their Arab allies failed to stick to the plan and rally in time.

The old saying a stitch in time saves nine is never applied. We only deal with crisis. We are too powerful, it will go away, if not we can and will deal with it, sounds familiar.

Why wouldn't other counties in the region support Argentina this time round, particularly if it serves their political interests/strategies.

Title: Re: Sabre Rattling?
Post by: raflaunches on February 05, 2012, 11:42:12 PM
Yes something has changed, the discovery of oil which makes countries act like idiots to control it and to prevent others from having it.
The rules of engagement are there for a reason, if we did not act in accordance with proper laws and rules we are no better than the criminals who break them, you may say this is pc gone mad but you have to have rules otherwise chaos reigns.
Argentina may have allies in the same region but can't imagine them getting involved  in a conflict that they may risk upsetting not only a friend like the UK but possibly loose all respect and relations with the rest of the UN whose decision was made quite clear that the Falklands are a British territory and protectorate and to attack it would go against international law.
I understand that you are providing the other side of debate but the chances of Argentina expecting to retake the islands by force is very low, last time we needed a carrier(s) and the Sea Harriers to provide air defence against their fighters and bombers because we had nothing else to do the job, this time the defences have been built up to prevent any attack and Typhoons and the Type45 are perfect for the job because they are already in the area instead of being on the far side of the Falklands like the carriers had to be last time to prevent their loss.
You say that you can't blame the press but you can, if they had not reported on possible attacks how many lives would have been saved?
If the aircraft had been destroyed on the ground the ships in the task force would not have suffered the losses that they did, and if Goose Green had gone as planned imagine how many British and Argentinian lives would have been saved instead it was a bloodbath for both sides!

Nick B