Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: glennb2006 on April 13, 2007, 01:37:40 am

Title: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on April 13, 2007, 01:37:40 am
There has recently been some discussion here relating to an entry level limited cost model boat racing series.

I kind of kicked this off on someone else's topic, and I would like to thank all who have responded to my comments.

I think Danny Bell has said all that need's to be said relating to a proposal and rules can be picked easily from his comments - I have copied and pasted it here for information:

"IF another "cheap to start and race" class is to be attempted, a number of things need to be considered.  It will take a definite committment on many parts.

The organisation
1. The class must be recognised by a National Body in order that racers have the same facilities and opportunities as the existing classes into which they may well move.  "Club" rules and racing does not give the same 'feel' as open competitions with members from many clubs competing individually.  It does not matter which 'National body' incorporates the new class but based on my previous experience, it would be more difficult to have it accepted in the MPBA.  This would also allow progression to true National Championships.
2. Races MUST be held as part of the same competitions as the other classes running under the National body.  The OMRA 'Z' class is an excellent example of what should NOT be done.  'Z' class races are held on different dates and at different venues and for a different championship than the original OMRA classes.  It has resulted in very few racers taking part in both 'sets' of races, further, as few 'Z' racers want to travel a long way just to race one class of boat, the way was clear to introduce another 'Z' class which meant that racers could now race two classes on the same day, thus the 'Z modified' class was born.
This has effectively split OMRA right down the middle, with few racers crossing from 'Z' to 'AA-D' classes. The very reason it was introduced in the first place.

The boat
3. A RTR or ARTR boat would be preferred by many new racers. It MUST be readily available in whatever numbers may be required and NOT rely on 'special offers' or 'here today, gone tomorrow' suppliers.  If we could get a UK manufacturer to put together a ready built, or as a minimum a COMPLETE kit, plus comprehensive, easy to understand instructions to an agreed specification and price, I'm sure it would be worth their time and effort.  A couple of very popular classes have been introduced in the USA based on a single RTR kit.  I would prefer it to remain a UK based enterprise for ease of communication, spare parts availability, and just because it's UK!
4. The specification would need much thought as it needs to be simple, possibly using a pull-start engine, submerged drive, untuned engines, reasonable price, and designed to go at a realistic speed which would not, obviously, be as fast as any of the 'standard' classes - but this would not matter as the boats would be competing evenly with EXACTLY the same type of boat.
5. NO modifications which deviate from the original rules should be allowed.  Any rule change proposed should mean the abandonment of the class.  Racers who have the ability and money to make this class of boat faster should move on to the existing 'developmental' classes, leaving this class for racers who want the boats and competitions AS THEY ARE.

The racers
6. It is the responsibily of everyone who enjoys model boating, in whatever form, to try to encourage newcomers into the hobby.  With new blood we will grow, to the benefit of all.  It is essential that existing boaters 'join in' to promote the new class, by buying and racing them.  Then as others see the fun to be had, they will want to join in. 
7. It is no use having a class where only a couple of boats are bought/made. Organisers of events do not want valuable water time taken up by a couple of 'new class' racers who use all the event facilities (rescue, lapcounting, PA, OOD) for two or three boats.  WE need to get the boats out there racing first.  Then they will appear in articles in the Modelling press and begin to attract newcomers.  It would also be worthwhile to carry out a 'photo' build/set-up which could be published to help newcomers along with such 'gems' as racing tips, problem sorting, etc.

Previous attempts have all failed, although some worse than others, because of a number of factors, many of which I've indicated above
and I know there are others, but if we could address these 'challenges', I'm sure the time is ripe for the introduction of a TRUE 'starter' class.

Danny"


I think the most important thing mentioned in Danny's words was "It will take a definite committment on many parts."

True. I also feel the time is ripe to introduce a starter class.

Please let me know of any interest. I am aware that there is nothing in place yet regarding costs etc.

I have approached the MPBA, and it would appear that the FSRV race calender is fairly full for the coming year so it is unlikely any events could be "piggy backed" onto FSRV events. I thank them for the speedy response to my email.

Regards,

Glenn Barker
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 13, 2007, 11:20:45 am
hello
 i think a restrict ed cost fsrv class would be a excellent idea, i normally have at least 3-4 people ask me where they can get a ic boat from only to be put off by price & availability.
 everyone ha to start somewhere
. i would think even local  clubs would benefit with a lower cost budget class that was recognised nationally. i know a couple of clubs run a sport class using standard  sc 45  a leo 45 engines. i old geared 3,5ccfsrv hulls,
 maybe dave marles could be approached to do a kit with  a sc engine & one of his old grp 3.5cc fsrv hulls.
                     steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: w3bby on April 13, 2007, 12:27:54 pm
Glenn, I wish you luck with this endeavour ;D

Steve, I guess you missed this from Dave

Entry level racing is difficult to achieve for many reasons but I think its human nature that people see something and want to go with what they see. .......  A current example of this is that I sell an unjoined  .90 size FSRV boat made from polyester with nice shiny gelcoat finish for £80.00 and in comparison I sell a joined  .90 size FSRV boat made from vacuum moulded epoxy carbon kevlar for £365.00.  I sold one of the polyester boats in the last  12 months but last year we couldnt make the epoxy boats fast enough.

I would have thought that a larger engine class 7,5 alt. 15cc would be better as my (limited) understanding of nitro is that they are easier to work with and less finicky to get going reasonably.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: OneBladeMissing on April 13, 2007, 12:55:15 pm
The MPBA calendar for FSR-V boats has been described as full. I count 9 events spread over 7 months (not counting the world champs eliminators). There's plenty of room for race meetings. One thing I noticed when I was a member of the MPBA is that they didn't (don't ?) like 'other people's' ideas.
How about a single type of hull ('one make') formula, using standard 7.5cc front-induction/ side-exhaust motor (NO mods permitted), two R/C channels used only (rudder & throttle), NO trim-tabs. Keep it standard, and the rules tight.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: DaveMarles on April 13, 2007, 02:15:52 pm
Glenn I wish you luck too.
                With regard to FSRV races. The racing days at the main meetings are full as it is. We struggle to get the 35cc class added to the races and we don't need more race meetings because many FSRV racers race abroad too. 
     The people who think a starter class is a good idea should organise it. Its no good saying that FSRV for example should  be pushing this. We've tried it more than once and it doesnt work for us and we've had people devote a lot of time effort and money to it and we don't need to try again with something thats proved to be a dead duck.
  The South Wales racing with stock 40's or .46 submerged drive seems popular. Why not find how they are organising things.

 Dave
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on April 13, 2007, 05:55:42 pm
So, at least we know where we stand with one section, although I would point out that if the MPBA website is up to date, Dave does not hold an MPBA office.  However, given the undoubted influence he has over the individual race organisers, I would take his last message to read that a new class is not welcome in the MPBA.

Therefore the question we have to ask ourselves is what type of racing do we want to do.  We could approach OMRA, but in all honesty, I feel that the SOME of the current 'Z' class runners would not look favourably on a third class.  It would be the most logical group to 'tie in' with, as the racing calender is already established.  HOWEVER, I'm sure that some would regard it as an intrusion on 'their' racing, although there may be some of the group who believe in the original idea of a low cost class and probably feel somewhat 'cheated' that the classes have now gone 'upmarket'.

There is, of course, nothing to stop anyone joining the MPBA or OMRA as a 'Nationwide' member and run on any water in the UK for which they have permission, giving them the necessary insurance cover for third party liability.  These members could then form an organising body to arrange suitable competitions.  "All" that would be required would be the usual facilities available for regattas held at most clubs.  The club would only need to provide the lake, parking, toilets and a rescue boat (preferably with outboard but not essential).  The better venues would be the ones with the most public access, giving the highest profile of the boats.  The racers themselves 'volunteer' to crew the rescue boat, act as lapscorers, and starter (OOD).  This is often done at club level with minimum available people, so the more you have, the more the 'load' can be spread.  Organising an event is not difficult and, if it goes well, can be a pleasant acheivement on its own!

One of the biggest drawbacks of any model boat racing is the distance needed to travel to actually get to the events and if you have only one class at a meeting, the slightest mishap can result in your days racing being finished.  This is why almost all racers run more than one class of boat, both in multi and OMRA.  Some have up to 4 classes although that is rare.
For that reason alone, I feel that it would be better to get the class racers 'piggy backed' onto existing events if at all possible.  It will be difficult until you can prove the class is popular, which is a 'chicken and egg' situation, as we won't become popular without races and we don't get races until we're popular.  And that's why SOME will write it off as a dead duck from the start!

Another thing to look at is - are we trying to re-invent the wheel.  Is there something out there that fits the bill as far as a cheap, simple RTR boat?  If so, what type of racing would it be most suitable for, given that the idea is to encourage newcomers to progress to bigger, faster boats OF THAT TYPE eventually.
A quick look at the American sites reveals a number of RTR boats, and a long trawl through the forums reveals that most have quite a few initial 'teething problems'.  One that seems better than most is the Aquacraft Nitro Hammer which is available through Ripmax so could also be obtained from a local dealer who is a Ripmax agent.  The price is a bit hefty at £219, but that does include a pull start .15 cu in motor, tuned pipe, and 2 channel Futaba(ish) radio.
The Ripmax website is abysmal and has no detail but more information is available from the manufacturer
http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub26-main.html (http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub26-main.html)

Why do I think that an RTR would be better than a 'home design'?  Although the home design would be far more interesting to existing boaters who will be looking for a challenge, we are not trying to appeal to them (us) as there are already enough classes available now. It could also be probably built cheaper using the hull from xxx, the motor from yyy, and the rest of the bits from zzz, but who's going to put the kits together?  We already know one answer, and I suspect that others couldn't be bothered either.  Lets face it, it's a gamble which if it took off could result in untold riches (well perhaps a modest profit) for the supplier, but if it didn't they could be left with stock that wouldn't sell.  As I said earlier, I would love it to be a UK boat, but with what I've heard of current suppliers - no chance!

So, what do you all think of things so far?  I know most of my messages raise more question than supply answers but believe me, NOW is the time to sort these things out. Then when the class gets going it is more likely to be the first one to SUCCEED.

Danny
 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 15, 2007, 11:46:14 am
hi   
 i sent a email to the south wales club yesterday to find out more on there club 40 class here is my reply

We decided on S.C. 40 or asp 40 that are the same engines and cheap. 
no tuning allowed, tuned pipe or aircraft mufflers.  aircraft mufflers
fall apart or snap at the manifold.  submerged drive only.  your choice
of hull, mono only. Run over a short multi coarse.  Two 10mint heats
for one race no rescue but if you can wade for your boat or it drifts
back you can re-enter it in the heat.  It is a very popular form of
racing in our club as there is not much difference in speed between all
boats.  close racing good fun and cheep.  about 10 or 11 members race
club 40 it is also very entertaining to watch,  video on website next
month if you want more e-mail me.

Jeff

if none of the governing body's will recognise a new class. could it not be started a club level if the same rules were used at each club
they could then run open events to allow others to come & race
if south wales are getting 10-11 boats turn up thats almost twice the amount we used to get running at my old club (southampton) in any class.so much so that racing died completely




the club 40 class seems ideal to me as the engines are cheap hulls should be easy to find. my friend in germany who normally builds my boats for me. can mould 3 types of  design of suitable hulls for around 90 Euros i think a few uk clubs used to have suitable hull moulds as well .
 
    look forward to anymore suggestions    steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 16, 2007, 09:31:54 am
well done Glenn and Danny it looks like you might have a chance of starting something here,however i find it typical of certain suppliers and bodys attitudes that they cant be bothered to even try to help.id like to ask Dave who he intends to sell all his sports engines to? he sells the sc range but seems not willing to consider he could benefit a great deal if this class gets off the ground.i applaud all the efforts you guys are giving to this idea ,i for one like the idea of a club class with open events !!.if dave or whoever doesnt want to make the hulls needed to start a class maybe he could at least make a mould available for someone else to manufacture the hulls,im sure he  has some old moulds lying around that could be used.failing that i see no reason why any hull so long as it has the same size engine cannot be allowed to compete in this class.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: DaveMarles on April 16, 2007, 10:54:26 am
Mart, I've served my time helping this hobby with a lot of my personal time and money (and still do) so have a go at someone else.  As a matter of interest I supply the Elmbridge club with their Atlantor hardware kits at a discounted price and special props for the South Wales boats and I used to supply the North Wales club with their Alpha 20 kits when they ran a beginners class until they lost their lake to tree huggers.
    My comments re. the beginners class are just a reality check based on previous experience and my opinion as to what will get new people into boat racing.  If you have a different opinion then thats fine but thats all it is, a different opinion.

 Dave
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 16, 2007, 01:19:59 pm
Point taken Dave but just because its failed before doent mean it will this time!!,i know your a very nice guy and very helpfull which is why your comments sort of went against the grain a bit.You have influence im sure that could maybe help get this class kick started,for me it would need to be a club class as i cant travel the country like a lot of you guys as i suspect neither can most people.Sorry if i offended you Dave ,as you know ive said good things about you and even got myself in a few arguments lol so dont think im having a go at you(much lol).I think im the only person running a petrol or ic powered boat in blackpool that i know of so wont be much racing going on at the lake i use  ::).
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: DaveMarles on April 16, 2007, 03:15:09 pm
Mart, I'm not offended at all.
     
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 16, 2007, 04:16:41 pm
Mart, I'm not offended at all.
     

[/quote

Thats good to know mate as i seem to upset a few peeps on another site or maybe our american friends are just too touchy lol  ;D.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on April 18, 2007, 01:00:55 am
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions so far.

Now for the acid test - is anyone interested in this proposal fomr existing modellers, guess that is where it needs to start.

Please let me know. I realise nothing is sorted yet regarding costs or class of racing, just trying to gauge interest levels.

Thanks.

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 18, 2007, 11:05:24 am
hello
 
 if the rules set up the similar to south Wales club 40. we have 4 of us in portsmouth running boats already.with another 2 being built
 if not  i defiantly would  be interested. may even get 2 built to see if I can drum up interest down here & hope some more will jump on bag waggon.
 i do agree that a photo build would be a very good idea
                 good luck steve
 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on April 19, 2007, 11:07:49 pm
Well, being as I seem to have a lot to say (waffle - some would say), I would like to 'volunteer' as one of the guinea pigs.
Although I'm going to have a VERY busy season, I would like to 'put my money where my mouth is' and help get something started.

We've had Jeff and Steve saying that there is already a loose 'eco' class in S Wales and Portsmouth.  I suppose that the main 'users' of this class will not want to travel to the ends of the UK to run them, so it looks like club or area competitions would be favourite?

What type of hull are you using Steve (looks from your Avatar that you're a multi fan).  Are they easy to get hold of - and cheap?

The OMRA 'Z' class took off because there was no other class of that size to compete with.  Would 40 be a popular size?  (Don't answer if you've a 40 sat in the back of the workshop doing nothing)

Regards (and thanks for this Glenn)

Danny
 

Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 20, 2007, 05:17:33 pm
hi glen 
 now up to 5 boats most of the hulls are old now out of date geared 3.5cc fsrv boats a monsa. & storm  converted to take direct drive os 40s one bought from ebay for £65 a old alpha 40 with a irvine 40 sport & shg Parana with a webra 40, i have a nearly finished rfk scorpion with a os vrm. awaiting the radio gear. the fellow with the piranha has almost finished a sigma with a irvine 40 rear.+ i also have a hydro fiber predator irvine powered
 as i collect old multi racers i have a fee spare hulls around as well
my German friend can mould his own stinger hull & a ram charger hull shown
 we used 40 size engines for there cost cheapish to buy stay in tune & dont blow up like 3.5s not as expensive to run as bigger engines (even cheaper on caster straight)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 20, 2007, 06:37:06 pm
nice boat wonder if i can get a petrol motor in there  ;) hehe.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on April 24, 2007, 10:29:13 am
Hi Guys

I have a Storm that I have not built yet that I will be willing to put a straight 40/46 in, just like the good old days. The reason I haven't built this hull is due to not wanting to travel too far to race. Has there been much interest so far and any proposals as to regatta venues?

Rob


Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 24, 2007, 02:43:08 pm
hi bob
 glad to here someone else is interested. sounds you are like me you would be willing to race but do not want to spend a fortune or travel 100s of miles to race.
the boats we run down here are a mixture of old & new 1 having been reserected from the attic after 14 years.
 i dont think there has been any rules set up yet just My idea of a club 40 size as there a some running  at the moment at a couple of clubs
     
 regards steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on April 24, 2007, 03:26:12 pm
Steve

Lets hope something gets off the ground however there is a lot of distance between us i am in Sheffield!

Rob
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on April 25, 2007, 12:38:23 am
I am encouraged that there is interest. Good.

I have been having a look around at availability of pull start motors, another way to keep cost down, no starter required, but can only find .18 motors. Anyone know of anything a bit bigger available? Thinking a .40 class at least should have some "go".

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Andy on April 25, 2007, 09:09:33 am
http://www.justengines.co.uk/

Have a look at the above, Leo make a 46 pull start - £75
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 25, 2007, 10:49:07 am
hi all
one if the guys down here hare has ordered a pullstart leo 46 & is waiting on a quote on a swan neck manifold to put in a  shg shark they seem a good value for the money
           
              steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 28, 2007, 11:41:18 am
hi
 bad news on the leo 46 pullstart engine. just engines have informed my friend that it is no  longer available, so he has bought a non pull start version instead
 i think pull start marine engines are quite rare lots of buggy motors about but by the tine you covert them it w/c head + a flywheel you could buy a starter
 has anybody tried a Cordless electric engine starter that i have seen advertised  ?  this this may life a bit simpler if it works
                   steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 28, 2007, 12:16:17 pm
when you say cordless engine starter what type do you mean?
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 28, 2007, 02:08:36 pm
 hi
 this type
  Unique aero engine starter by Q World racing

Similar to a Roto starter for cars this starter has a universal female adaptor built into the head. The kit comes complete with male nose cone adaptor to use on and aero engine up to 60 size!


they are abut £25
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 28, 2007, 07:10:49 pm
hi looks ok i know my mate uses a converted roto start to start his .60 aero engine using a nimmh pack so it should work. you might need to loosen the plug to start the engine though.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on April 28, 2007, 08:47:16 pm
For a REALLY cheap starter, pop down to your local motorcycle breaker and get a starter from any old bike from 200cc up.
Stick a heavy duty switch and some heavy wire (I use thick speaker cable - very flexible and high amps) and a couple of croc clips.
Job done and about £8.  You'll need to turn up an ally pulley which is grubscrewed onto the shaft.
Mine's off a Honda 250 and has started everything including a high compression 90 off 12 volts SINCE 1986!!
Danny
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 28, 2007, 09:08:14 pm
For a REALLY cheap starter, pop down to your local motorcycle breaker and get a starter from any old bike from 200cc up.
Stick a heavy duty switch and some heavy wire (I use thick speaker cable - very flexible and high amps) and a couple of croc clips.
Job done and about £8.  You'll need to turn up an ally pulley which is grubscrewed onto the shaft.
Mine's off a Honda 250 and has started everything including a high compression 90 off 12 volts SINCE 1986!!
Danny

danny i think the point is he wants something easy to carry ,this is the reason i hate nitro because of all the equipment you need to carry about.gas is much easier on your back for starters lol.by the way did you see my decals i put on the boat?.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on April 29, 2007, 11:16:56 am
hi
 the  starter was as mart says so newcomers did not have to carry a starter & battery about. does not affect me as battery is in the bottom of home made boat stand thats on wheels
 
                                          steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on April 29, 2007, 09:27:37 pm
any pics of your boat stand on wheels mate?
mart
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on May 01, 2007, 12:12:05 pm
hi mart
 its a modified tool box from  b&q
                  steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 01, 2007, 12:46:17 pm
looks good steve might be a bit too small for a big gas boat though  ;)i was looking at modifying one of these for mine  ;D
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on May 01, 2007, 05:09:34 pm
hi mart
 looks ideal for your boat, you  can rig another strimmer engine to it to save pushing it

steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 01, 2007, 07:33:50 pm
hi mart
 looks ideal for your boat, you  can rig another strimmer engine to it to save pushing it

steve
might just hang it on the back of the lads push bike hehe
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 16, 2007, 09:46:13 am
has this idea died a death or is it still alive? if so heres a nice cheap kit for a new easy to build race boat yup its a woody and very cheap and all parts lazer cut. ;D
http://www.zippkits.com/ev.htm (http://www.zippkits.com/ev.htm)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on May 16, 2007, 11:24:12 am
hi all
 nice cheap boat looks ideal for a strimmer class boat.
 but  how many people wold end up with a finished boat
i i think a lot of people dont want to do much building just bolt a few things together on the kitchen table, like a car kit
 been looking a nimrif  cigarette 33 for £45 has anyone built one ?
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 16, 2007, 02:50:59 pm
hi all
 nice cheap boat looks ideal for a strimmer class boat.
 but  how many people wold end up with a finished boat
i i think a lot of people dont want to do much building just bolt a few things together on the kitchen table, like a car kit
 been looking a nimrif  cigarette 33 for £45 has anyone built one ?
the boat is capable of running with any motor you choose wether it be a zenoah gas powered,a strimmer motor or a nitro motor.my boat will handle a zenoah even a tuned one no worries about that and it runs better than some so called professionaly built hulls ,i can say that with confidence.not much building to do really ,a cpl of days would have it finnished.it took me 1 week to build mine and i had to cut all the wood myself.its time people in the uk started to realise how easy how cheap these boats are to build and run and you will get very good performance from them as you have seen from my video of mine.35 mph is ideal for a beginers class and no heavy equipment to carry to the lake either.and a run time of 1/2 hr or more on a full tank of petrol is pretty dam good,try that with a nitro engine.these boats are been built the world over and that kit is aimed at a beginers class and they are going to be raced also.you cant buy a glass hull for anywhere near the price of that kit either.the kit could be finnished and running in a cpl of weeks if not less and at half what a nitro rtr will cost.like i said mine hasnt cost over £150 to be up and running.and with a tuned pipe will easy reach 40 mph which isnt bad at all .
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on May 16, 2007, 09:33:12 pm
hi all
Do you remember what it was like before you started model boat racing? 

If I remember correctly, not a great deal has changed EXCEPT there are now FAR more 'other things' to do! 
I started off with 'other things' - a plastic model of a dragster which, when finished looked very pretty but didn't do anything. 

So off to the model shop to see what they had.  At that point I'd never seen a copy of Model Boats or a boat race, or attended a regatte, so had no idea what I wanted.  The picture on the box of a Lesro Stiletto looked good, so with that and the help of a knowledgeable shop assistant, I left with - the kit, glue, paint, a HB20 engine, tank, rudder, tubing, aircraft silencer, thicker tubing, propshaft, coupling, plastic prop and a 2 channel radio.

I won't say it was easy to build because at that time a lot of it was more luck than judgement, but a few weeks later it was finished.
I then had to find somewhere to run it as, up until then, it had never crossed my mind that I would need somewhere.
The guy at the model shop told me of the nearest club and when they were there, from then on it was 'plain sailing'.

The reason for these 'ramblings' (apart from the fact that I'm getting old) is that the "newcomer" we are hoping to attract into model boating may not have any idea what they want or how to do it! How many IC knowledgable sales assistants are there?  I was VERY lucky - I could just as easily ended up with a model train!!

I firmly believe that the upsurge in interest in the USA is due to the fact that NOW, you don't have to rely on the model shop assistant who MAY be OK but .......
There are a number of RTR boats which seem to range from bad to quite good, but are ready to go.
What does the UK offer -
Decide what type of racing to do.  Don't know?  Well EVERYONE will say that theirs is the ONLY type, the others are not worth bothering with.  The truth is out there - somewhere!
Buy hull from XXX (have to mail order because the local shop doesn't stock it), if lucky may have an A4 sheet with a layout sketch on.
Buy engine from ZZZ (no idea which one though - huge variety of engines AND recommendations)
Buy all the other bits needed.  What do you mean "you don't know what bits" - it's common sense!
If your really lucky, join a web group who will help you, bearing in mind that you're local shop probably won't even know there is one!

WE DO NOT MAKE IT EASY.

What do other groups do?
Cars - dead easy, RTR, run in the car park, stocked in the local shop.
Planes - bit harder, RTF but have to join a club and not much competition until you're good.

So what would appeal to someone who's never done it before?  THINK BACK to before you ever had a boat.

If any established racer were to help promote a starter class, first by buying the boat, then by building and/or testing the boat, doing a photo build, recommending it, etc, it would have to fulfil certain needs:-
It would have to be able to race against others with the same boat (accepting that there would be low numbers to start with).
It would have to be associated with a type of racing already taking place into which they could move if desired.
It would hopefully look and feel (possibly smaller) like other boats they am being encouraged to move on to.

As I write this, I am more than ever convinced that if we could get a UK distributor (ie Ripmax or Jotika) to import a GOOD USA RTR boat OR get them to put the WHOLE kit together (including radio) and proper instructions, we could be onto a winner.

I know that Ripmax already sells the Nitro Hammer for just over £200 and the same American company also make a bigger (27") version with .18 cu in engine (which Ripmax don't import). These boats are suitable for 'offshore' (probably the 'lake' variety of event) or for circuit racing. They also import the Miss Vegas hydro which would only be OK fro circuit racing.  There are NO starter or RTR boats suitable for FSR-V (multi).

If you add the cost of UK parts, we could probably do something for a similar price, ie.
Nimrif 33" Cigarette hull = £45
Hardware kit = £60
Engine (pull start .18) = £60
Cheap tuned pipe and manifold (Just Engines) = £30
2 channel radio = £30
Bit and pieces (tank, paint, etc) = £10
TOTAL = £235

but which would be more appealing to a beginner?

Remember - its not what WE want, its what would appeal to a newcomer??

So what do you think (should I ask that or will it provoke so much thought that nobody responds except DickyD) ;D

Danny

 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: DickyD on May 16, 2007, 09:41:53 pm
 ??? ???
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: dazzle on May 16, 2007, 10:00:07 pm
Great proposal, Main problem is lack of lakes & waters, I would love to see 3 classes .61, .40, .21 & under.
Tuned pipes a must, youngsters love a flash exhaust, Me I like the sound plus adds to the fun setting the bugg**s up.
I still use  a leather boot lace for starting, cheaper still.
regards to all dazzle
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on May 16, 2007, 10:25:13 pm
Leather boot lace?? Hands up all those who've ever started an engine with one.
Oh the fun we had at the start of a dead engine race in small pits - free whipping  ;D ;D

An then back 'ome to t' shoe box in't middle o' t' road ;D

Danny
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 16, 2007, 11:43:32 pm
lol  ;D.60 quid for a .18 you can get em on ebay from wong kong for 30 quid and they aint badd either  ;).or a nice.28 for £65 ask simon he got his for .the uk model shops dont wanna know dave proved that.far better email a chinese one and do a deal for shipping a few over .
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/rcworldwide-com_Boat-Engines_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ11QQftidZ2QQtZkm (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/rcworldwide-com_Boat-Engines_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ11QQftidZ2QQtZkm)

heres a nice cheap hull from them they would do a deal for bulk orders my mate got a good quote from them when he was looking to go into the buisness of selling boats.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Delta-Force-12-Offshore-Deep-V-Mono-Gasonline-Electric_W0QQitemZ150018216125QQihZ005QQcategoryZ19166QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Delta-Force-12-Offshore-Deep-V-Mono-Gasonline-Electric_W0QQitemZ150018216125QQihZ005QQcategoryZ19166QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on May 17, 2007, 12:15:01 pm
hi all
just had a look at this

http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub22-main.html

 i think it is the boat danny was looking at
not to bad for a rtr boat if ripmax stocked them SHAME

yes do remember bootlaces for starting  & black lines on my hands after
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on May 17, 2007, 02:03:31 pm
Yes Steve, thats the one (thanks for putting the link in).
It looks as though it would be fast enough for a beginner but might also appeal to more experienced racers who would like to race "like for like" without the usual building rigmarole (maybe even buy one as a 'standby boat'). 
Although obviously not as quick as a geared 3.5, it would also qualify to go straight into OMRA 'AA' class which could also be used to gain "real race" experience - stability over speed?
It would be useful for magazine articles as you could do a report including how it fared in a race. If there were a few taking it up, it would be easier to get it recognised by OMRA than the MPBA.
Even if the new recruits didn't want to travel to events, it would still make a good club boat.

I'd be willing to try talking Mrs 85 into getting me one (I might even talk her into having a play with it - ooh, errr, Matron) ;D

Martin - Did your mate ever start his business importing?  We would need someone reliable to get ALL the bits together and present it as a 'beginners kit'.  Could take off big time, as in the USA - or could end up as a white elephant.  Anyone you know willing to risk it given that there would probably be very little profit in it for the first year?  The Hong Kong hull is a Naviga circuit boat which looks more like a multi but might be difficult to "slot in" to UK racing styles (Daves new ones for example could only be properly raced in MPBA circuit races).

Danny
 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: DickyD on May 17, 2007, 02:18:40 pm
Stick to the leather bootlace Danny.
You can always borrow mine ,I still have it. ;D

Richard ;)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on May 17, 2007, 02:57:02 pm
so whats wrong with circuit racing?  ??? ,my mate hasnt started his buisness yet but its only on the back burner for a while .i do know a guy who can supply glass hulls like the super g and he has fitted them with the same engine as mine in fact i think he makes them and his friend sells them in his shop but dont quote me on that
,not sure how many he could supply but they run well and have a tuned pipe if needed.by the sounds of it your looking for a small nitro boat so i wish you well.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on May 18, 2007, 10:26:42 am
Personally i would prefer that the class was based around fsrv has anyone thought about speaking to Dave Marles to see what new comers gear he could offer
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on May 18, 2007, 12:35:27 pm
Hi Rob
If you read reply 4 on this thread, you'll get the answer.

Time for a few home truths (from my perspective), I think -

FSR-V (multi)
For - fair number of races, mainly Midlands and South. Some local club activity (Wales and South).
Against - uncompetitive (relative to National level) boats not welcomed. Very competitive driving standard required. High damage potential. Expensive.

FSR-H (hydro) and FSR-O (offshore)
For - appeals to ultimate speed seekers.  Popular in USA (good source of information). Easy entry to World Championships (places vacant at last W/C).
Against - not many races.  Short time on water. Limited number of racers.

OMRA
For - various skill levels welcome.  Lots of races (mianly Midland and South). Large variety of hull/engine/drive availability.
Against - no international competitions (not recognised by MPBA).

Although I spent many years multi racing, and still have friends who race, I "changed styles" to OMRA some years ago as I found the variety more interesting.  Not only the type of boat and engine, but the different venues (small lakes/large lakes/open sea).  The racing, whilst still being competitive, is more easy going (maybe because we don't have three World Champions to regularly race against).  The damage sustained is far less so the boats do not have to be built "bulletproof" from exotic materials, which keeps costs down.

"You pays your money, and you takes your choice"

Danny
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on June 06, 2007, 11:20:53 am
hi
 if any body is thinking of building a club 40 boat i see dave marles is selling off cheap monza hulls on ebay, they go well with a direct 45

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170118397584&rd=1&rd=1


          steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on June 06, 2007, 02:18:26 pm
I will be more than happy to have a go at one of these with a straight 40/45 if anyone else in the north fancies a go??

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 07, 2007, 06:58:33 pm
HI Rob,

I will do it. With the Prestwich Monza Hull, I will see how many Dave has to sell. We need to agree a few things first though:

1. Motor  - type
2. Tuned pipe - yes or no
3. Radio - can we agree 2 channel basic radio?
4. Race format - oval or FSRV - duration of race.
5. Minimum people numbers - not much point in just you and me having a race!!
6. Insurance - MPBA should cover it OK.

Look forward to any responses.

Glenn

I think it will take me about four weeks to have a boat ready to go with my current work commitments. I take it there is water at Sheffield where they could run?

 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on June 08, 2007, 09:27:44 am
Hi Glen

Yes there is a lake we can use at Rothervalley country park. The model boating lake was designed by the Sheffield Ship Model Society and is only 3 and a bit feet deep apart from a channel that runs through it.

I did a quick google search and found a rear induction front exhaust irvine 46 for £129 may be this could be a good starting point.

I agree with the 2 servo limit ie rudder and throttle only.

Tuned pipe yes

I could probably get one put together in 6ish weeks so there will still be some summer left for fun!
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 08, 2007, 11:06:46 am
Hi Rob,

it's getting there then.

Engine wise I've asked just engines if they still do the Leo Marine .46 or .40 with the pull start, the idea being to keep costs down. They do pipes for them.

Dave Marles is going to let me know tomorrow how many Monza Hulls he has left.

Two Channel radio good.

All that leaves is:

Race format.

Some others to get involved. Anyone else out there fancy committing to have a go?

Glenn.
 
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on June 08, 2007, 11:14:09 am
hi all
 down south (portsmouth) our rules where simple
1 motor   -  side port 46 engines or rear induction 40s mainly to stop expensive CMB 45 being used (have talked about out of production 45s )
2  tuned pipe   - yes  the bryn bach boys say aircraft silencers snap off
3 radio   - 2 ch only  
4 race format - as lake permits we use 2 lakes 1 a  L shaped m coarse the other oval both raced clockwise
insurance - mpba
fuel  - max of 5% nitro

hope you get a good responce maybe a add on ebay could help
 i have sold 7 o 8 direct drive 40-46 boats on ebay i the last 2-4 years & have seen many more for sale   now hidden away probably!

i was told leo 45 pullstarts a no longer stocked witch is a shame


                            good luck steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 08, 2007, 02:41:09 pm
its a pitty you couldnt have gone a bit smaller as there are lots of great cheap motors out there such as the .25 chung yang or the sts .28 for very cheap prices.i think you will struggle to get a good cheap .40 or.46 engine.also i think the sts.28 would probably out perform a lot of the .40 engines your talking about unless your going for a propper race engine.simon off here has one in a boat and all it needs is a flywheel that are available on that site i believe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STS-CMB-JP-NOVAROSSI-SH-OS-RB-SIRIO-BOAT-28-GAS-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ6010925661QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116075QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STS-CMB-JP-NOVAROSSI-SH-OS-RB-SIRIO-BOAT-28-GAS-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ6010925661QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116075QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on June 09, 2007, 12:08:06 pm
hi all
 no problem with cheap 46 motors not much more expensive than the sts 28 the SC 46 & leo 46 are only £70 & comes with flywheel silencer + toolkit just engines also keep spares as well so you wont be off the water for long they also do a manifold +pipe as well
                                               steve
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 09, 2007, 04:34:18 pm
forgot about the sc range but they are not race engines and i bet the sts .28 would wipe the floor(lake) with it  ;D pluss it has a pull start.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 10, 2007, 01:50:56 am
Just engines came back to me and, as someone already stated, the Leo .40 / .46 is no longer available in pull start.

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on June 12, 2007, 01:30:46 pm
hi glen
did dave say how many monza hulls he had left?
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 12, 2007, 11:17:03 pm
Not as yet, I will chase him again for the answer, he did say he can make as many as we need though!!

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 13, 2007, 11:20:07 am
pitty he cant help a bit more  as it would make things easier for you guys if a seller would put a package together after all dave sells the sc range of engines and all the hardware etc?come on dave give the guys some help it makes good buisness sense  ;).
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 13, 2007, 12:40:30 pm
Just so you are aware, I have commnicated with Dave Marles, Ian @ Ians boats, the MPBA and many others. To a man they have all been very helpful and positive about this, relaying past experience with attempts that have gone before.

I have once again asked Dave how many hulls he has and I am sure he will come back to me, he does get busy like we all do.

I will post his response here.

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 13, 2007, 02:40:19 pm
surely it makes sense for him or someone to put a package together for these guys? otherwise hes gonna lose a few sales ,a hulls one thing a full setup is another?.maybe once you know exactly how many you want you could ask him to give you a quote on a few rtr packages or almost rtr without radio gear ect?.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: glennb2006 on June 13, 2007, 05:47:09 pm
Just so you are aware, I have commnicated with Dave Marles, Ian @ Ians boats, the MPBA and many others. To a man they have all been very helpful and positive about this, relaying past experience with attempts that have gone before.

I have once again asked Dave how many hulls he has and I am sure he will come back to me, he does get busy like we all do.

I will post his response here.

Glenn

OK, I have had the response now, and unfortunately, he has no more other than the one that remains on ebay.

Glenn
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: w3bby on June 13, 2007, 07:16:11 pm
A good initiative that seems to be getting some backing, this low cost racing could be fun  ;D However it seems that there is a bit of stick being given where it's not really deserved  :( There are limited suppliers of hulls and limited supplies of hulls. It seems (from reading this thread) that the overall official feeling is "been there, done that, didn't work to well"... I am quite sure that once you have rules in place and an idea of numbers then deals can be made but I would expect a minimum commitment of x hulls. (A similar thing is happening on International Waters with the initial stages of a large tunnel hull class.)
A regards RTR or ARTR I suspect the low cost aspect would disappear if Dave Marles, Ian Folkeson or any other professional put time into putting these hulls together. If you want low cost you have to be prepared to do work yourself.....or persuade the Chinese to make the whole thing  ;D

Yeah, I know I'm in Sweden and it really doesn't affect me BUT if this takes off then it could be transferable to other markets. I know that a similar attempt has been considered here. Good luck with the endeavour.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 14, 2007, 01:12:19 pm
wasnt meaning to be giving stick to anyone  ::) china is a good option if you can buy in bulk i know the guy my mate was talking to about hulls had a factory that made arrowshark type hulls and could supply gpum clones too.might be worth a try if anyone has the money for the initial outlay  ;D.i have some pics but they are in bitmap does anyone know how to change them to jpeg?.
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: w3bby on June 17, 2007, 06:51:42 pm
Just returned from a weekends racing as Race Leader. You want a cheap easy way to get into racing then Thunder Tiger have just come out with a new RTR. I saw this boat this weekend hydro World Champion Jörgen Andersson, who consulted on the boat was competing with a borrowed boat in FSR-V.
The new RTR is a tunnel hull with a 3,5 outboard, everything is there except batteries and starter, see a picture here http://www.hobby.se/index.php?action=m2&id=1&huvudID=1&temav=normal&temac=sennr&temah=normal&fotID=1&stilmall=stilmall-A.php (http://www.hobby.se/index.php?action=m2&id=1&huvudID=1&temav=normal&temac=sennr&temah=normal&fotID=1&stilmall=stilmall-A.php) Better pictures to come...
What do you think????
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: omra85 on June 17, 2007, 07:20:44 pm
Ian
If it's the same as the American ones, they come without the engine and radio which although most of the donkey work is done, does bump up the price.
I helped a bloke get his new RTR cat going  a couple of weeks ago.  I think that was called a "Thunder".  Went OK for a cheap starter and would definitely be fun if racing against other boats of that make.
I would love to see the 27" Aquacraft in a few UK model shops.  When you got tired of class racing, you could enter OMRA "AA" class events and probably give a good account of yourself.
Danny
(do we have to call you "mighty leader" or some such now)  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: w3bby on June 17, 2007, 09:22:16 pm
COMPLETE and built in the box including their Jaguar radio, motor and stand, except batteries and starter. Very nice looking RTR, not sure of the price picture but it was not expensive, I think I heard 3900kr mentioned so around £300

Competition Director, is better I suppose, I don't race FSR-V just run some of the races, computer and all that jazz  ;) So just "Sir" will do or you get penalty laps ;D

3,5cc FSR-V, after 30 mins racing we had 3 guys on the same lap and within 5 seconds of each other, GOOd tight racing ;D
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: Rob_g on June 20, 2007, 09:04:49 am
Hi Guys

Has anyone had any thoughts on where to go next ? It would be a shame to loose the interest people have shown allready. I for one would be more interested in building a boat than an RTR!

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: martno1fan on June 21, 2007, 07:25:38 pm
Hi Guys

Has anyone had any thoughts on where to go next ? It would be a shame to loose the interest people have shown allready. I for one would be more interested in building a boat than an RTR!

Regards

Rob

 build same one as mine and stick a nice weedy engine in it and have a blast i do 35 mph pluss with an almost stock engine and no pipe ,runs quiet and is loads of fun and all for less than £150 including radio gear  ;D.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DkwfMavcqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DkwfMavcqQ)
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on July 05, 2007, 12:49:30 pm
hi all
 have jusy found thid
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160133844935&rd=1&rd=1
Title: Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
Post by: retro boats on July 05, 2007, 12:58:50 pm
hi all
 have just found this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160133844935&rd=1&rd=1


mat be another option  has pullstart engine also comes as a bare hull + radio box so you could build your own
                                                 steve