Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Other Technical Questions... => Topic started by: J.beazley on April 14, 2007, 11:19:42 pm

Title: Lead Ballast
Post by: J.beazley on April 14, 2007, 11:19:42 pm
Need some help???
Been to the local hardware outlets (B&Q, wicks, homebase, plumbase and the likes) but can any of them offer me some lead sheet i think not!
Ballasting my Ryhope tug and already done the ballast her with battery's thing. She needs a little lead in the stern to bring her down to her marks.  ::)

Ive got some lead weights from the local fish tackle shop but there all round or egg shaped, how hot do i have to get these shots before they melt into the shape i need???

Jay
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: ajg141 on April 14, 2007, 11:28:49 pm
I got a reel of the stuff from a local builder's merchants but have to say it cost an arm and a leg. If you do go down this route be careful - it can easily give you a hernia when you try to lift it. It's lasted years though.

Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: RickF on April 14, 2007, 11:31:45 pm
Jay,

Have you tried your local tyre dealer? Apparently they throw away/sell all the balance weights they remove - they cannot reuse them. Haven't tried them myself as I still have a pile of lead flashing in the garage.

Rick
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: banjo on April 14, 2007, 11:56:52 pm
Hi,
The next time you are up in Basingstoke I can give you some sheet lead, ex FLASHING STRIP.

PM me for contact details
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: J.beazley on April 15, 2007, 12:00:00 am
im in basingstoke 2moro picking up my nipper from my mums literally 2 secs from the lake in eastdrop

tried the building site across the road and the local tyre place and they both said the same thing, they both weigh all the lead in as the price of it at the moment is rather good ::)

Jay
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Captain Anonymous on April 15, 2007, 12:21:54 am
I use an old pan and a camping stove, but remember to put on the lid, this retains the heat, it should melt in minutes,
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Martin (Admin) on April 15, 2007, 01:57:32 am
Look in Yellow pages for a Gun shop  - Lead shop  is more versatile than sheet.

Martin.
(SHOT - oops  :-[ - thanks TT )
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: tigertiger on April 15, 2007, 05:17:04 am
Look in Yellow pages for a Gun shop - Lead shop is more versatile than sheet.

Martin.

Lead shot methinks he meant to say. ;D

This can be melted easily or set in resin.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: sinjon on April 15, 2007, 06:12:27 am
What do you do with a pan full of molten lead?

Colin
Title: Re: Lead Ballast Lead Shot
Post by: banjo on April 15, 2007, 06:32:26 am
Westbournes do lead shot, 2.5kg packs which are ideal for mixing and epoxying into place; for the finishing touch a piece of lead flashing, neatly bound as a small flat packet in gaffer tape works wonders.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: tigertiger on April 15, 2007, 06:55:39 am
What do you do with a pan full of molten lead?

Colin

Put it in a mould.

This can be a simple wooden box/tray..

Or you can make plaster of paris moulds,

Or sand.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: sinjon on April 15, 2007, 08:46:00 am
Thanks tigertiger,
I had a feeling that just pouring it into the bottom of the hull was a bit of a non starter.
I have some old lead flashing, but I was going to cut it into 1/2'' strips (tinsnips) and just press it into shape in the hull, it sounds simple, but often the simple things lead to further complications, can you see any problems with this method? not to keen on molten lead!

Colin
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: barriew on April 15, 2007, 09:04:04 am
Wickes sell lead flashing - cost me nearly £20 for the smallest roll, but should last out all the boats I am likely to build ;D
It's not so easy to buy shot from a gun shop - tried that. They said that few people bother to fill their own cartridges these days as ready made ones are so cheap. They offered to strip some cartridges for me to get me the shot which I actually needed for Billings Nordkap as there was no way to get sheet into the bows.

Barrie
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: RickF on April 15, 2007, 09:13:14 am
Just as an aside and without going too far OT, are cartridges still filled with lead shot? I thought the tree-huggers had got it banned, along with lead fishing weights.

Rick
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: DickyD on April 15, 2007, 09:18:17 am
Thanks tigertiger,
I had a feeling that just pouring it into the bottom of the hull was a bit of a non starter.
I have some old lead flashing, but I was going to cut it into 1/2'' strips (tinsnips) and just press it into shape in the hull, it sounds simple, but often the simple things lead to further complications, can you see any problems with this method? not to keen on molten lead!

Colin
This is a simple way to do it .
I have done it in two of my boats.
When you have your lead where you want it apply a spot of epoxy resin to each end to prevent it moving.
If you dont use to much resin, if you need to remove the lead at a later date this is easily done.

Richard ;)
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: J.beazley on April 15, 2007, 09:24:41 am
At the moment i have all the lead balls stuck together with a tiny amount of epoxy just to stop them rolling in the hull.

Dont know about gun lead being banned but my local fishing shop had more lead weights then i would in a lifetime.
the only problem with fishing weights is they dont sell them small enough ie smallest shot is 1/4oz which has a diameter of around 15mm.

Made up a little wooden box to mould some lead into the desired shape just gotta bypass a old pan past SWMBO without her seeing should be fun ;D

Jay
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on April 15, 2007, 10:35:54 am
Jay
From the days when I used to make floats for my carp-fishing mates I remember that split-shot are very small. They're the tiny little weights which you crimp onto the leader line (the thin bit with the hook on it) to hold it down in the water. I think what you're looking at are "ledgers", which are much bigger and hold the whole hook and bait onto the bottom of the pond or river. BTW If you think boat-modelling is expensive you should see what these guys will spend just to get an edge on the fish! My apologies to any "carpies" in advance if I've got any of the terminology wrong, but I think you'll know what I'm talking about, even if I don't.............. ;)
FLJ
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Roger in France on April 15, 2007, 11:03:21 am
For those of you who melt lead at home, a warning. Lead is highly toxic and the fumes given off when it melts are very easily ingested. If you spend more than a very, very brief time melting down the lead please make sure your work space is very well ventilated, better still use a camping stove outdoors.

Roger in France.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: kendalboatsman on April 15, 2007, 11:32:53 am
My Local independent plumbers merchant used to sell lead flashing on a roll and he sold it by the metre. Mind you haven't been back in for 3 years.

Thought Wickes would have sold that.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on April 15, 2007, 12:13:17 pm
Thought Wickes would have sold that.

Yep! They certainly do! Are you sitting comfortably? A roll 240mm x 3M is £38; 300mm x 3M is £48 and 450mm x 3M is a pension-busting £60!

Why not buy two and share them with friends? Depleted uranium would probably be cheaper, including the airfare to Iraq to collect it.

Suit yourselves. I'll stick to mugging anglers............... 8)
FLJ
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: rats on April 15, 2007, 12:53:22 pm
Bought some large fishing weights once with the intention of melting them down it was only after I was stood with the pan on full heat on a camping stove for 10 mins, without any sign of them melting, that I realised that maybe their not made of lead !  Bought a roll of lead flashing from builders merchants in the end and attached it to the boat with bathroom mastic- gives a strong grip but can be removed if necessary
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: kendalboatsman on April 15, 2007, 03:25:52 pm
Thought Wickes would have sold that.

Yep! They certainly do! Are you sitting comfortably? A roll 240mm x 3M is £38; 300mm x 3M is £48 and 450mm x 3M is a pension-busting £60!

Why not buy two and share them with friends? Depleted uranium would probably be cheaper, including the airfare to Iraq to collect it.

Suit yourselves. I'll stick to mugging anglers............... 8)
FLJ

Guess that is why my local merchant sells it by the metre then! ;D
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: DickyD on April 15, 2007, 03:38:51 pm
Most local plumbers merchants sell lead by the metre, or faling that have a word with your local plumber they always have scrap lead.

Richard ;)
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: barriew on April 15, 2007, 03:44:14 pm
Thought Wickes would have sold that.
Yep! They certainly do! Are you sitting comfortably? A roll 240mm x 3M is £38; 300mm x 3M is £48 and 450mm x 3M is a pension-busting £60!
I only bought mine last year - can't remember the size, but it was the smallest available and just under £20. Anyone interested at £1 per inch ;D

Barrie
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Tug on April 15, 2007, 04:14:23 pm
TT said

"Put it in a mould.

This can be a simple wooden box/tray. Helps if the woodis wet when ya do it.

Or you can make plaster of paris moulds,

Or sand."

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES MUST YOU LET WATER (or damp) COME ANY-WHERE MOLTEN LEAD, THE WATER CHANGES IMEDIATLY TO STEAM AT WHO-SO-EVER PRESSURE EXPLODING MOLTEN LEAD FOR MILES

Lead melts around 750 degrees F'

I use sardine tins and melt the lead into those, a standard? tin holds 3 1/2 lbs I paint this yellow and the boat has a box in wood strip also painted yellow ballasting is simply putting coloured tins in respective boxes, one weight set fits all boats,

Hope I am not too late, I am not the only one to try this  :-[

As an aside...wheel weights contain a lot of antimony which raises the melting temp to around 900' F, and printers type is even harder and melts over the 1000' F,  (a former user of lead projectiles competitively. non combat)
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: RickF on April 15, 2007, 04:19:56 pm
The above replies made me wonder if I was mistaken about lead shot/fishing weights being banned, so I had a quick Google.

The current regulations appear to be:

In England, Scotland and Wales, you must not use lead shot when shooting with a shotgun over a foreshore area or over listed Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs). The foreshore, also called the intertidal zone, is the area of shore that lies between the average high tide line and the average low tide line. In addition, you must not use lead shot to shoot any swans, ducks, geese, coots, moorhens, golden plover or common snipe. No restrictions apply to Northern Ireland.

Lead fishing weights weighing less than 1 ounce are not allowed.

Rick


Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: J.beazley on April 15, 2007, 04:24:19 pm
cheers for clearing that up Rick now we all know where we stand  ;D

bought a mini blow torch with a free refill so will attempt melting later this evening, going to use a bake bean can that ive cut down should give me the right shape i need :)

Jay
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: bigH on April 15, 2007, 07:36:43 pm
   I get my lead in simple slabs that divers use to balance their levels in the water.   You can get them in different sizes and weights and also shot of different gauges as well try your local diving shop or chandlers.   One word of warning, when melting lead, have a small  (pea sized) lump of candle wax and place it in the melting lead this will give off a black smoke, use a taper to set this smoke alight, you will then have no toxic fumes to worry about....  bigH
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: westcoaster on April 15, 2007, 09:35:07 pm
Try your friendly local roofing contractor. Most of these guys have piles of old lead flashing they've removed from roofs they are repairing. My experience has been if you explain what you are up to and ask nicely they will let you have some for free. It is easy to hammer it flat and cut to suitable sizes
Best wishes
Douglas
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: RickF on April 15, 2007, 11:28:13 pm
Jay,

Don't stand - keep your head down. Unless you're sailing near the "intertidal zone" or a site of special scientific interest. If you're in Northern ireland, all bets are off!

Rick
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: tigertiger on April 16, 2007, 03:46:06 am
TT said

 Helps if the woodis wet when ya do it.


UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES MUST YOU LET WATER (or damp) COME ANY-WHERE MOLTEN LEAD, THE WATER CHANGES IMEDIATLY TO STEAM AT WHO-SO-EVER PRESSURE EXPLODING MOLTEN LEAD FOR MILES


Thanks for the safety warning, I have ammended my post.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: MikeK on April 16, 2007, 08:30:36 am
That candle trick sounds a neat precaution bigH, where did it originate ?? Sounds like something that might be passed down by craftsmen from another age.

MikeK
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Tug on April 16, 2007, 10:21:51 am
Mitec,

The candle used to be a small lump of beeswax which helps the other metals [tin and such] flux into the lead,(make solder)

without this only the lead shines all the dross floats on top.  Tug
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: MCAT on April 16, 2007, 04:22:25 pm
You can also  if there is one near by go to the scuba/diving shop they should sell shot for dive belts
this is in containers from small to large starting at about £5  not sure on the weight sorry  but shouldn't take much to complete ballasting .

just make tacky with resin pop it in let it set .
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: bigH on April 16, 2007, 07:34:43 pm
   Hi Mikek,  the tip about the candle came from the local blacksmith that had a shop in the middle of the village where I lived as a child.   I say a candle but I believe it was a lump of tallow that he used.  He used to teach us kids how to handle various jobs using local materials, he was a wonderful model maker as well, ( Aaaahh, sweet days of yore, now it's sweet days of bore instead )  I can however still make a wheel...  bigH
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: MikeK on April 17, 2007, 08:48:42 am
   Hi Mikek,  the tip about the candle came from the local blacksmith that had a shop in the middle of the village where I lived as a child.   I say a candle but I believe it was a lump of tallow that he used.  He used to teach us kids how to handle various jobs using local materials, he was a wonderful model maker as well, ( Aaaahh, sweet days of yore, now it's sweet days of bore instead )  I can however still make a wheel...  bigH

Thought it had a ring of bygone days. Any chance of you making a 185x65 H alloy ?? My spare is looking a bit tatty  ;D ;D
Only joking - I'm jealous really

MikeK
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Doc on April 17, 2007, 04:49:51 pm
At the risk of starting something I really don't want to get into...
Burning the toxic gases coming from molten lead does not neutralize anything!  It just changes the 'state' of the toxic gas and in some cases makes it even more toxic by adding the toxic gases from what ever it was you burned.  Anything burning gives off toxic gases, even wood.  Just -how- toxic it is is a different story.  Adding something to toxic gases to make them more 'acceptable' is fairly common, but it doesn't change the toxicity.
I've worked around that 'stuff' for a lot of years and believed some of the stories were just that, stories.  Unfortunately, I've had it proved to me that it's not always that simple.  It depends on the temperature of the 'burn', which is quite high, and not very easy to do.  Wish it were...
 - 'Doc
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: bigH on April 17, 2007, 06:33:45 pm
   Ah well! Thats another urban myth down the chute, thanks Doc.   I have no doubt that what you say is correct about the toxicity its just something that I was taught as a kid in 1935 and have always done it.   It is good of you to correct this though, I would hate someone to be hurt by my advice.   bigH
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: MikeK on April 17, 2007, 06:36:55 pm
Don't despair bigH you have still got your wheelrighting to fall back on  ;D ;D if that is the right (!) expression


MikeK
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: J.beazley on April 17, 2007, 06:53:24 pm
Melted lead all done now and its the right shape aswell ;D

DONT TRY THIS AT HOME!!! middle of the garden, gas stove with cut down bake bean can on top with the lead in and the use of my blowtorch soon had the stuff melting, i know what you mean about the fumes :o good job i had my sprayers mask on to help me breathe ::) left it to cool for ages before even attempting to touch it but all is good.

On the plus side i think i shall just buy lead shot from ripmax from now on and mix it up with epoxy much safer and easier.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Tug on April 18, 2007, 05:03:53 pm
"i shall just buy lead shot from ripmax from now on "

Just think you have saved many pounds by doing it yourself, and  you did it  yourself.
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: norry on April 22, 2007, 10:15:01 am
                 ...Hi Guys...

I use Square Fishing Weights held in place with Velcro...So they cant roll about...

I managed to buy a load of them at a Car Boot Sale for a couple of quid...

...Regards...Norry...

Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: catengineman on April 23, 2007, 02:46:35 pm
I have smelted old tallow leads down and made triangular shapes these will lay together quite nicely and with the shape they seem to be very versatile.

Richard,
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Shipmate60 on April 23, 2007, 03:09:40 pm
The best lead ballast is in the form of Gel Cell batteries.

Bob
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: DickyD on April 23, 2007, 05:06:02 pm
I use scrap lead flashing layed in the bilges and pressed into the shape of the hull. Is this not complicated enough.

Richard ;)
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: kendalboatsman on April 23, 2007, 10:31:25 pm
The best lead ballast is in the form of Gel Cell batteries.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Got to agree with you on that. My Springer has two 6v 4ah and two 6v 1.2ah SLA batteries for ballast and it only just sits on the waterline.

Clive :)
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: Capt Jack on April 26, 2007, 11:18:11 pm
Got my lead in half kilo balls from a guy who supplies fishing tackle shops, £10 for the 10 kilos.
Peice of angle iron,beat the ends over and a blowtorch, and thats it, pretty much the same as catengineman, well it was his engineroon workshop!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: kenthompson on May 21, 2007, 11:36:12 pm
Hi all, there is still the old  church roof, but  remember GOD pays back in all sorts of ways...Ken
Title: Re: Lead Ballast
Post by: sinjon on May 22, 2007, 07:40:05 am
Just remembered I have a bag of lead weights, they are balloon anchors - came along with the balloons at an open day.
Actually I don't want them, but unless you live down the road from me.......

Colin