Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: wullie/mk2 on June 12, 2012, 07:43:05 pm
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Just last month,Thames Water, along with other water companies imposed a hosepipe ban,...Then one of Thames Water employees, went on to say, "what we need is lots & lots of rain"...........Well!!!!!!!
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There seems no coincidence that it started raining the day the hosepipe banned was imposed, and has barely stopped since.
It will only be rescinded when that nice old gentleman with the long beard has finished building his boat. Donations of animals in pairs are requested.
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48 flood warnings in place and we cant even wash the car with the hose.....- britiain in 2012 - great huh !
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We had scorching weather up here, in but we never have hosepipe bans,...its probably because, normally its us that get the rain,...but as the manny said on the tv last night, "its all to do with the Gulf Stream"its...its Fault,....and here was me thinking,..."old man with white beard"...what old man?
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48 flood warnings in place and we cant even wash the car with the hose.....- britiain in 2012 - great huh !
I used my Pressure washer on Sunday, and it uses zillions of gallons, and i,ll be watering my plants tonight, with the spray attachment on my hose.......and maybe use my pressure washer again tomorra,No hosepipe ban up here,
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People are actually taking notice of the hosepipe ban? %%
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And now we find that a Mr.Baggs (boss of Thames Water) is about to pocket around another £4m in bonuses.
Isn't there something wrong here? BY.
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I have been doing some research into this one.
The last few winters have had lowish rainfall. But this low rainfall has been well within normal variation. In the UK variations by 33% either side of the nominal average are quite common. You handle variation in rainfall by storing water in the wet periods to use in the dry ones. For the South East, about 70% of storage is in underground aquifers, which are hard to expand. That means that any increase in water storage must come from surface reservoirs.
We have had an 11% increase in population in the SE, and much more is expected. The water companies realised this, and have proposed 5 new reservoirs, and extensions to 3 more, to cope. Abingdon reservoir near Oxford, the Clay Hill reservoir near Canterbury, and a huge reservoir at Broad Oak, near Folkestone. There is also Havant Thicket, a £36m project between Havant and Rowlands Castle, and the Lower Severn reservoir, in the Severn Trent Water area. These plans were funded, and placed in their 20-year plans released in 2004.
Not one has been started. ALL these reservoir works have been halted by government intervention, because it is government policy that we should use 20% less water (see the government 'Water Futures' policy document (2008)). If we all use 20% less water, then these reservoirs will not be needed.
I am not sure why we are being required to cut our water consumption. It seems to be associated with a directive from the EU - a “Communication” issued in 2007 by the European Commission (COM (2007) 414 Final) “addressing the challenge of water scarcity and droughts in the European Union”. This requires all member states to plan to 'save water'.
So none of the five reservoirs deemed essential in 2004, all in the south of England, have seen the light of day. And neither have the three reservoir extensions, although one, the Abberton Reservoir enhancement, in Essex, is due to come on-stream in 2014. And this is NOT because the water companies have tried to avoid paying for them - it is because the government is implementing an 'environmental policy' of 'saving water' and has refused permission for ALL the planned reservoirs to go ahead.
I have been complaining to my MP, to DEFRA and to the CCWater customer representative body about this. Water cannot be destroyed - we can save and use as much as we want without harming the water cycle at all. But DEFRA's view is that we are more 'environmentally friendly' if we use less water.
If anyone wants to add to my lone calls into the centre of government for the planned and required reservoirs to be built, it would be greatly appreciated...
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Just one question? Where is Engerland? Never heard of Engerland. Is it near Gelderland?
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Just one question? Where is Engerland? Never heard of Engerland. Is it near Gelderland?
Last time I watched the footie, all the English supporters were shouting, c,mon Engerland????? as for Gelderland,mmm, I thought F came after E,
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engerland is just north of brussels..... they seem to be calling all the shots... {:-{
England has plenty of rainfall, i remember my formative years growing up in the lake district, i remember it being said that borrowdale was the wettest place in england.....
even if its not, we have plenty of orrographic rainfall over areas of higher ground....so lets get this water where its needed......
lets totally shelve plans for HS2- a silly railway line than cuts 20 minutes off the journey time from london to Birmingham with no stops en route.... at a cost of billions - lets shelve this and actually put in a water main for the whole of england- so if we are short of water in the west we pump if from a part of the country that has water is plentiful supply....
surely being able to flush a 'xxxxx' and use your hose pipe is more sensible than saving 20 mins on a train journey...?
2012 a modern nation, surely we need to think this through !!!
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We,ve got loads of nice soft Scottish water,...if we go it alone we could easily sell England some,after all we make Malt Whisky with it,so it must be good, unlike the hard water you get in the south,
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Ah malt made by those nice scotch folk for the Engerlish
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Ah malt made by those nice scotch folk for the Engerlish
And you talk about me yanking chains, {-)
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We,ve got loads of nice soft Scottish water,...if we go it alone we could easily sell England some,after all we make Malt Whisky with it,so it must be good, unlike the hard water you get in the south,
i've got lovely soft water thanks...........got a water softener fitted !!!!
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And Wales hasnt got a hose pipe ban HE HE cos we got plenty of water
Dave
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BBC News
Drought: Three water firms set to lift hosepipe bans. The companies said their hosepipe bans would end on Thursday after an official announcement on Wednesday. Thames Water also signalled it would lift its ban.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18419163 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18419163)
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It appears that after the weeks of seemingly endless rain we are to expect tornadoes now ! :o
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/326247/Flooded-streets-now-get-ready-for-tornadoes
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And Wales hasnt got a hose pipe ban HE HE cos we got plenty of water
..... and very nice it is too Dave, it comes out of my tap in Liverpool, a really soft water.
It also means when there is a drought I can pray for rain somewhere else - Lake Vyrnwy / Llyn Efyrnwy, Powys.
Dave
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BBC News
Drought: Three water firms set to lift hosepipe bans. The companies said their hosepipe bans would end on Thursday after an official announcement on Wednesday. Thames Water also signalled it would lift its ban.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18419163 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18419163)
it looks like the clowns we get our water from are not prepared to lift the ban !!!- typical !
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I've come to the conclution that our water company is loosing so much money with the hosepipe ban now they have put us on a water meter. Will still wash the car with a bucket as it is so much cheaper. Anyone want to buy a hoespipe? {-) {-) {-) Alan
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I can only assume, that you along with the rest of England have water meters on your domestic water supply,...up here in Scotland we don,t,its only commercial premises that have meters,
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They have a beeping cheek talking about us wasting water -
I wonder what percentage of their water is lost in leaks?
Huyton has had some truly major mains failures over the last few years.
News has just said four companies not lifting bans due to their supplies are from underground aquifers.
Dave
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Now don't be silly Wullie what would we need water meters for here in the north - there is plenty of rain. It doesn't just rain in Scotland you know
Geoff
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They have a beeping cheek talking about us wasting water -
I wonder what percentage of their water is lost in leaks?
Huyton has had some truly major mains failures over the last few years.
News has just said four companies not lifting bans due to their supplies are from underground aquifers.
Dave
they were talking about this on the radio this morning- it was said one third of thames water supply is lost through leaks.....dont know if this is correct or not !
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I, know you will all find it hard to believe,but in the Western Highlands,i.e. Skye, Lochalsh, Wester Ross,and surrounding area,s they are experiencing drought conditions,and in the paper today, the local authority for this region say they may have to tanker in fresh water,as the June rainfall has only been 27mm, compared to the average of 70mm+....long may it continue cause this is where we are going for our holiday,s
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I, know you will all find it hard to believe,
As if anyone would find the things you say hard to believe Wullie %) {-)
Enjoy your holiday, and don't put water in your Scotch.
Dave
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Many years ago the then "Water Board" decided that building a dam across a rather nice valley in Northumberland would create a useful source of water for the steel industry on Teeside. The "lake" is massive.
Then "they" decided that to get the water from Kielder to the Tees would need a large pipeline. About 60 miles long. I don't know how long it eventually became because the steel plants closed. But to my simple mind, just continuing this work could be the basis for a National Water grid. BY.
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... But to my simple mind, just continuing this work could be the basis for a National Water grid....
There is actually no need for a National Water Grid. Copious amounts of water fall, and will continue to fall, in all parts of the UK. The recent problems (over the last 10 years) have been entirely due to the government halting almost all reservoir building, following activist lobbying, the UN Agenda 21, and various EU directives. This has meant that the parts of the UK which have increased populations have been unprovided for, and have run short.
As far as I can tell, the justification for ceasing reservoir building is that water is a scarce resource, so we must use less of it.
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Well!,its not scarce here,its been p*****g down all weekend and for the better part of last week also,and i can,t get my grass cut,..and by the time i am able to get it cut,my lawnmower won,t be up for the job,as the grass will be too long,which will mean a double cut,if not a treble,
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Have a look at this website http://www.water.org.uk/home/policy/positions/national-water-grid and who pay for the pipeline and pumping stations? We have some 29 impounding reservoirs serving the northeast 2.6 million people in the Northumbria water area.
If the water companies repaired the damaged pipelines So 3300000000 litres aren't going down the drain everyday, do you think we may have enough water left.
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i can,t get my grass cut,..and by the time i am able to get it cut,my lawnmower won,t be up for the job,as the grass will be too long,
Yes Wulie, sheep really prefer the shorter grass. {-)
I am told there is a great variety in grass, I would recommend finding a fine one.
My garden is filled with beds, ponds, sheds, patios; and I have greatly reduced the need for grass.
I just Potter about out there now, but weed control is a definitely problem in miserable weather.
Now some people choose chemicals in the garden, but many are actually banned substances.
I'm sure there is A list available for those interested in the legal aspects of weed control.
And let's not forget that chemcals can get into your water too.
Dave
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Before Wullie gives all Scotlands water away perhaps he had better read the attached link - seems there is a shortage in some places
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-18646860
Trust Wullie to get it wrong again
Geoff
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Wullie already said that there was a shortage there,and that he's going there for his hols. :-))
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Hi Wullie, fill your boot with water cans you might be able to make a fast buck(sorry pound) selling it to pay for the holiday,I have never known a Scot to miss a money making opportunity yet, LOL. Mick B.
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Wullie already said that there was a shortage there,and that he's going there for his hols. :-))
Thankyou,I feel vindicated,....as for you Geoff, ..specsavers are doing a buy one get one free, {-)
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Hi Wullie, fill your boot with water cans you might be able to make a fast buck(sorry pound) selling it to pay for the holiday,I have never known a Scot to miss a money making opportunity yet, LOL. Mick B.
That was a bit below the belt,and un-called for {-)...and anyway i,m only 50% Scottish,and 50% Ukrainian,
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and anyway i,m only 50% Scottish,and 50% Ukrainian,
Ne khvīli͡uĭtesi͡a! Wullie, Meni, bud' laska pyva O0
Dave
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How can I moderate this. %)
ken
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Don't worry Wullie, can I have a beer please? {-)........... I think, sorry Ken
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Ban Wullie Ken and do us all a favour Ken. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/1986671973.jpg)
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er - You can't - that's only a yellow card photo
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(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/breakpc1.gif)
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Ban Wullie Ken and do us all a favour Ken. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/1986671973.jpg)
Dangling carrots or yellow cards,might be good for Donkeys, O0 O0
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It was on the news today that June was the wettest for 100 years. Any thoughts on this ???
ken
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Ken you can't ban Wullie, he is just pure entertainment & besides we all secretly love him. Billy Connelly move over Wullie has arrived. It is time again to laugh & have fun even if some will bust their strait jackets with the effort. We have been far too serious since the melt down, Lets have some Mayhem again. Mick B.
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I'll get a couple of crates of Double Diamond from behind the bar and it's all back to Mick's for a party. :-))
If anyone wants a soft drink it'll have to be Canada Dry {-)
Dave
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You obviously did,nt listen to a word I said Dave,when you eventually get the V,..I,ll send you down a bottle of decent beer,....and it,ll be broon, {-)...an no like that p***y watter stuff you,ve got doon there, {-) {-)
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The bottled stuff disappeared years ago Wullie - the modern draft beer is only 2.8%.
In the seventies we always had 'jars out' after the pub shut on Saturday night.
Then money back on the empties and crate got us a couple of pints for the Sunday afternoon session
Mackeson's milk stout, Mann's Brown were some others, the girls liked Pony, Cherry b, Babycham, Snowball.
Never did take to 'Newcastle Brown' though - not even during a 'drought in Engerland' ........................ and we're back on topic Ken {-)
Dave
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It was on the news today that June was the wettest for 100 years. Any thoughts on this ???
Yup
1 - The Met Office forecast in March for the next three months said it was going to be dry. They used their 'climate change' model....
2 - It doesn't matter how wet it gets. Down in the SE we haven't got enough reservoirs, so we can't store enough of it for when it's not raining. The government won't allow us to put any more reservoirs in - they say that water is too scarce, and we must use less of it instead....
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Yup
2 - It doesn't matter how wet it gets. Down in the SE we haven't got enough reservoirs, so we can't store enough of it for when it's not raining. The government won't allow us to put any more reservoirs in - they say that water is too scarce, and we must use less of it instead....
The mind boggles at the logic used there
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The government are blindly following a European directive on the 10% - I think it was on the news (not sure when).
If everyone just stopped huddling ever tighter into one corner of the country that would help too.
Dave
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The mind boggles at the logic used there
I have a letter from CCWater (the official body representing the water consumer) which says that although there is a lot of water on this planet, most of it is undrinkable because it is in the sea, so we must conserve the diminishing amount of fresh water we do have.
They do not appear to understand the hydrological cycle!
(In fact, it's worse. We have been 'ordered' by the EU environmental directives to cut our water consumption per head per day by 2030, and the officials are just casting around for a set of words to justify this. The current usage is 150L - we are expected to drop this to 130L or 120L. That is a 20% drop! Source 'Water Futures - 2008')
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Apply that logic to Air. There is a finite amount of it, most of it is elsewhere, reduce your intake by 2030 or else :police:
some simple measures -
expel some of the aliens - 10% saving there at least
ban all exercise - but would only work in the south really, already done that here
shut me up........... {-) priceless but can't be done (though the Mods occasionally prove me wrong on that <:()
Now Canada has an excessive amount of clean air and for the most part nobody is even using it.
Dave
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Plenty of water here as well.... nice clear water (well it is up here not so sure about down in Helsinki)
The lake that feeds our well is huge, it runs from here to Tampere which is 150kms south.
When you consider that Finland is 130,596 sq mi and has a population around 5.5million and England is 50,346 sq mi with a population of 52million we are positively swimming in the stuff (and do)
Its always amazed me that model boating is not a bigger hobby here than it is... Plenty of local wood for materials and you are rarely more than a few miles from a lake
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Here in Canada where we have between 20 & 25% of the planets total fresh water, depending on who you believe, we still get the story of there being a water shortage.We are only 33 million people & have 25% of the total planet supply of fresh water & we have a water shortage, LOL. Of course what we don't use winds up in the ocean anyway. What is really going on is that private interests (read crooks) see a bottomless pit of money if they could ever get control of it. I find it hard to believe that a national resource that belongs to us all could be taken over & then sold back to us by the crooks despite we being the original owners of it in the first place. The Americans are always casting their eyes north & have made lots of noise about we "sharing" with them & of course there are those among us that would be happy to sell. Some among us would not like them to have empty swimming pools in the middle of the desert states poor things.The problem is if that ever happened that we "shared" our water with them,under the present "free" trade agreement if once sold to them it cannot be reversed, that is without a war, & we all know how America plays the "share" game. The "free trade" agreement states that we have to treat the Americans exactly the same as our own people, you have to question the brains of any politician that would sign a deal like that & what did they get under the table. If any of you have the time take a look @ the Columbia River Treaty that was signed with the Americans & how they got control of the river & lakes, it is frightening to say the least. So far we are lucky, water was not part of the original "free trade agreement".What I don't understand is how private interests in the U/K got hold of all your water rights in the first place. The local council here in Calgary offers you a $100.00.discount on your water bill for every lo/flush toilet you install. Of course what they then do is inspect your home & raise your taxes because of the improvements you have made,pretty sneaky I would say. As far as that goes the less they know about me the better, Canadians will freely give out their private information to most anyone. I can see things getting very nasty in the not too distant future when people start to wake up & realise what has happened while they were asleep., it should be interesting times to say the least. Mick B.
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Now Canada has an excessive amount of clean air and for the most part nobody is even using it.
%) Doh - wrong again!!! I forgot about Mick {-)
Yes, if you sell to the Americans I can see your water prices being increased at least - though you have the water to spare, would you have to build greater infrastructure? Would the Americans contract for the local resources nearer the border, with the local population then paying for supplies from further afield? Who knows when it is all profit driven?
Dave
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[quote author=irishcarguy link=topic=37627.msg380187#msg380187 date=134132
Here in Canada where we have between 20 & 25% of the planets total fresh water, depending on who you believe, we still get the story of there being a water shortage.We are only 33 million people & have 25% of the total planet supply of fresh water & we have a water shortage, LOL. .....
[/quote]
Nobody on Earth has a WATER shortage. There are a couple of cubic kilometers of water for every man, woman and child on the planet. And furthermore, when you use it it is not destroyed, but just flows round the hydrological cycle to be used again. There is no reason everybody should not have as much water as they want.
What we DO have, frequently, are INFRASTRUCTURE shortages. There is loads of water available, but it needs to be captured, stored, purified and piped to where it is needed. That is, actually, quite a cheap process, and the water companies (at least in the UK) are happy enough to pay for it. But what is amazing is that they are being prevented from doing so by the UK Government and the EU.
These bodies have listened to environmental activists, who have a simple mantra for 'natural shortages'; "We must conserve!". So they are 'conserving' the water supply by forcing people to use less! This is madness. But it is happening, and nobody in authority seems to care enough to point out why it is wrong...
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There is no reason everybody should not have as much water as they want.
I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each <*< >>:-(
Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.
Dave
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I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each <*< >>:-(
Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.
Dave
Make them have cold showers or go swim in the lake :)
Now in my day.....
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Dave if we were ever stupid enough to sell to the Americans & the day arrived that we would need to restrict or curtail the sales can you imagine what would happen?. Selling your countries non renewable natural resources to the highest bidder is not a good long term policy, worse yet is letting other countries & private corporations take control of them. It is a complex subject but caution is never a bad idea before you make moves that can't or would be very difficult to reverse.There are people that would like a monopoly on air, water, & the food supply, all things necessary needed to sustain life, these should NEVER be in the control of private individuals, my opinion & quite a few others as well. Mick B.
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unfortunately, here, they are already in the hands of shareholders and executive boards already.
Dave
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Hi Dodgy, you are correct, water does not disappear it just goes round & round, ask the astronauts they know & I won't expand on it. To Dave, I am not aware of how that happened in England. Mick B.
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Now in my day.....
Let me guess, it was a wet tuesday afternoon, somewhere near the junction of routes 18 and 66 and the sound of the chainsaws of Alavus buzzed faintly, no Visuvesi bus today so you walked %). Yes, I could have done Essex but hey your place is more romantic
Well, that's exactly the sort of response I'd get from my kids for anything faintly historical - so I can never start with 'in my day'
Dave
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Let me guess, it was a wet tuesday afternoon, somewhere near the junction of routes 18 and 66 and the sound of the chainsaws of Alavus buzzed faintly, no Visuvesi bus today so you walked %). Yes, I could have done Essex but hey your place is more romantic
Well, that's exactly the sort of response I'd get from my kids for anything faintly historical - so I can never start with 'in my day'
Dave
Now thats some local Knowledge lol
I guess google is on your christmas card list ;D
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I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each <*< >>:-(
Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.
Dave
No there isn't. I've done the calculations. As an example, storing rainwater is about 80 times more expensive AND worse for the environment than using mains piped water. But that's a point for another thread....
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I don't see it Dodgy - If it takes X amount for a decent shower and my kids use 10X then ten times the water is pumped here by the waterboard, ten times the gas heating, ten times electrically pumped upstairs, bathroom lights and fans are on longer than needed. Then there's the waste water to be purified too. That is a lot of needlessly wasted energy.
Plus all the hot air I produce because I really need the loo O0 >>:-( <:(
Dave
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I,m surprised the water companies don,t ask us to perhaps share a bath,
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You talking to me? {-)
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Now in my day....we were so poor that during a drought we were forced to dilute the water !
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I don't see it Dodgy - If it takes X amount for a decent shower and my kids use 10X then ten times the water is pumped here by the waterboard, ten times the gas heating, ten times electrically pumped upstairs, bathroom lights and fans are on longer than needed. Then there's the waste water to be purified too. That is a lot of needlessly wasted energy...
You are quite correct that if you use 10x of anything, then the absolute costs are going to be higher than 1x of something. But your comment that this is 'needlessly wasted energy' takes us into a whole new ballgame of discussion, more appropriate for a book than a thread here! Remember, my initial point was not that using energy was not expensive, but that it was not 'an environmental cost'.
If you consider the costs of 'standardly provided water' vs the same amount of water provided in a 'green fashion', it is relatively easy to show that with the huge costs associated with things like local building rainwater capture, storage and dual-pipe 'grey water' use, reservoirs and mains piping are far cheaper and (if you want to believe that CO2 and energy use is bad) much more 'environmentally friendly'. The maintenance costs of filter changing and chemical anti-algae treatment for dual-pipe systems alone are horrendous. In fact, reservoir water storage, purification and sewage treatment, once set up (as the Victorians did for us) is a very cheap process.
But you have widened the field to consider general energy costs. Again, you are correct to imply that at the moment these are very high, and if you want to save money it is appropriate to cut its use as far as possible. My concern is that energy costs are high, not because that is the cost of energy production, but because environmental activists want people generally to cut energy for idealistic reasons - religious, if you will - and have persuaded politicians to increase costs considerably via taxes in order to achieve this. During the 1950s it was believed that nuclear generated electricity would become 'too cheap to meter', and that energy would be, for household purposes, effectively free. There is no technological reason why this should not be the case - the base costs of nuclear generation are very low - but determined activism coupled with capitalist love of profit has meant that society has kept energy costs artificially high. Current 'green' taxes are pushing this to the brink.
So I agree that using 'a lot' of energy is currently expensive - but maintain that it is expensive for political reasons, not fundamental technical ones, and not environmental ones.
Is having an hour-long hot bath 'wasting energy'? It is certainly expensive for the reasons I have given above - and that may be all that is needed to close the argument if it is your wallet paying for it. But I am a follower of Julian Simon's Cornucopia theory, and note that personal energy use has relentlessly increased throughout the ages. In 1900 a person would be controlling about 750 watts if he was traveling somewhere - by 1950 that figure would be about 20Kw, and today we think nothing of using 100Kw. Simon's theory stresses that each generation must and will use more and more resources, and that they will never run out. Google it for details, or have a look here: http://www.webcitation.org/5Xu64dbNz (http://www.webcitation.org/5Xu64dbNz) A bit of a read, but well worth it...
Your sons are just following Simon's laws. And the energy isn't 'wasted' - for their generation it's the norm. That's what Simon means when he says that:
"..the material conditions of life will continue to get better for most people, in most countries, most of the time, indefinitely..."
What would your grandfather have said if he could see you running central heating on a cold night? I'm guessing that a small coal fire would have been good enough for him? His 'waste of resources' is today's norm, and, so long as environmental activists don't get their way, tomorrow's humans will laugh at our meagre lifestyles...
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That might be fine for a lot of totally pampered western European kids to have an hour long hot shower perhaps they should try it is some part of the world where
electricity and water resources are not so generous - It might be good practise for them as we might have resource shortages in a few years time
Geoff.
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.....r perhaps they should try it is some part of the world where
electricity and water resources are not so generous - It might be good practise for them as we might have resource shortages in a few years time
If we do have resources shortages here (and we may well) it will not be because natural resources are short, but it will be because we have created those shortages by not providing properly - by not building power stations, reservoirs and other things.
Simon said that "...within a century or two, all nations and most of humanity will be at or above today's Western living standards. I also speculate, however, that many people will continue to think and say that the conditions of life are getting worse..."
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D.G. I think with several billion more people on this planet further down the line - if they are all living up to current western european standards
something has to give somewhere - Im glad I won't be around but I do worry about my grandchildren and their generation and beyond
Geoff
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18% of the human body consists of carbon. If we are really serious on climate change then maybe the best way to absorb substantial quantities of carbon from the environment is to accelerate the population explosion. %%
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I would say that in fifty or less years from now most of our homes will be self sustaining, IE, off grid . it is already happening here. I wonder what the utility companies & governments will do to steal money from us when that happens ?. I predict that there will be no power or phone wires attached to most houses by that time. I have been 3,500 feet under ground here where potash is mined & the constant temperature is 72 degrees F. even when winter temp drops to - 50F below zero. It might be smart to build underground like they do in Australia where they mine in very hot areas. We get about 300 days of sunshine where I live (Alberta, Canada) & the technology is already there to use this energy, but utility companies will either try to control it or curtail any research in developing it if they can get away with it. Mick B.
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Mick, Your taxes will change with the new technologies. You will be taxed for having them and fined for not having them. The energy companies will move into ownership and control of new technologies and the law will require inspection regimes that you pay the licencesed companies to do or fines to the government for failing to do.
Re - we'll all live better generation upon generation - for my money it isn't sustainable ad infinitum in a closed system - so that rosy future cannot ultimately be true for everyone. There are already thirsty and hungry kids in the world who won't even survive the reading of this post.
My kids Transatlantic flight is slower than it was for our generation, no one is going to the moon anymore, space labs are closing, space shuttle retired, and more importantly the tennis skirts have gotten no shorter at all <:( QED
Dave
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Several responses - find your own!
"I think with several billion more people on this planet further down the line .... something has to give somewhere"
We have documented complaints about overpopulation and 'something has to give somewhere' from the Greek City States of 400 BC. At that time there were around 100m people on Earth. Nothing 'gave' during all the history since then, in spite of continuous and dire warnings. Of course, world population growth rates have been slowing ever since the 1970s, and are expected to become negative in a couple of centuries....
"I would say that in fifty or less years from now most of our homes will be self sustaining, IE, off grid.."
If so, I would say that most energy will be generated very uneconomically....
"We'll all live better generation upon generation - for my money it isn't sustainable ad infinitum in a closed system.."
We are NOT living in a closed system! You have obviously not read or understood any of the references I gave. I enclose an excerpt which covers your point. Simon is answering the question of how, in an apparently limited system, we have been able to provide expanding resources for an apparently limitless population throughout ALL recorded history:
The paradox is that those abstract principles and speculative analyses seem so very logical and believable, whereas the facts themselves, the story of what has happened, appear wholly illogical and impossible to explain. After all, people are fruitful and they multiply but the stores of raw materials in the earth's crust certainly don't, so how can it be possible that, as the world's population doubles, the price of raw materials is cut in half?
It makes no sense. Yet it has happened. So there must be an explanation.
And there is: resources, for the most part, don't grow on trees. People produce them, they create them, whether it be food, factories, machines, new technologies, or stockpiles of mined, refined, and purified raw materials.
"Resources come out of people's minds more than out of the ground or air," says Simon. "Minds matter economically as much as or more than hands or mouths. Human beings create more than they use, on average. It has to be so, or we would be an extinct species."
The BIG mistake is to look at a current economic resource, created by current human ingenuity, and assume that it will remain constant while everything around it changes. 200 years ago Malthus predicted disaster using that theory, and it never happened, because human ingenuity created resources from things Malthus simply did not realise were available. Yet, in every age, people insist on repeating those provably wrong predictions....
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We are NOT living in a closed system! You have obviously not read or understood any of the references I gave.
Sorry DG but though I respect your views, you are mistaken in two areas; Firstly I did read your references and in fact I went further afield, Secondly I did understand (most) of what I read. I just failed to agree with it's ultimate conclusion. It doesn't make me correct, but merely decided upon my personal view.
The issue of a closed system - can't we just agree to disagree on what we mean by that phrase please? I mean simply that apart from the energy of the sun and the odd meteorite, our resources pre space travel are limited to those of the Earth's confines. The sun will become lethal at some point in any case and if we are still confined here that will be and end to it all anyway
To finish for now DG - You say 'the BIG mistake is to look at a current economic resource ....' I say in terms of no time or population constraints attached to his statements that the big mistake is not to look at the ultimate resource.
Regards Dave
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and its still, raining cats & dogs here,
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Sorry DG but though I respect your views, you are mistaken in two areas; Firstly I did read your references and in fact I went further afield, Secondly I did understand (most) of what I read. I just failed to agree with it's ultimate conclusion...
Point taken :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :-))
The issue of a closed system - can't we just agree to disagree on what we mean by that phrase please? I mean simply that apart from the energy of the sun and the odd meteorite, our resources pre space travel are limited to those of the Earth's confines...
We are no longer pre-space-travel, or confined to the Earth. We are at the beginning of an expansion into a field which makes the Earth look very small indeed. But even if we stay on Earth alone for the next 500 years, we still can't predict what resources we will be using in that time...
To finish for now DG - You say 'the BIG mistake is to look at a current economic resource ....' I say in terms of no time or population constraints attached to his statements that the big mistake is not to look at the ultimate resource.
Regards Dave
As far as we currently know (leaving aside todays announcement from the LHC!) the ultimate resource is the Universe. We currently believe that to be about 46bn LY across. In 1900 we believed that it was around 30,000 LY across. So, exactly as Simon predicts, our understanding of resources grows continually throughout time. Simon also points out that nobody at any one point in time can specify a 'total resource'. For instance, if you had listed the current population size and their possessions to a human in the 1700s, he would have pointed out that there simply wasn't enough material in the world to make all those items. Simplifying things, he might assume that they would be made out of wood, which was getting short by the 1700s. He would not have heard of plastics, because they didn't exist then, and they couldn't have figured in his view of what the total material resource was. That's why we can NEVER define an ultimate resource, even limiting things to the Earth.
The one thing that inclines me towards Simon's view of resource is a study of history. People throughout recorded history have continually said that we were going to run out of things - it's not just been an issue since the 1970s. And yet we never have - the warnings have ALWAYS been incorrect, and for the reasons that Simon gives. Did you see Monbiot's piece in the Guardian yesterday, where he suddenly realises that Peak Oil isn't going to happen? Simon's point in a nutshell...
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and its still, raining cats & dogs here,
where does that phrase come from?
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Its a saying,that was often used in the past, but not by the younger generation of today,..see here for explanation
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/raining%20cats%20and%20dogs.html
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Still used here in Liverpool Wullie O0 .................every beeping day <:(
'The Guardian' DG I never read newspapers. I just prefer the radio these days, I even cancelled my New Scientist subscription a few years ago. With the radio you can get on with something else as you listen. Plus debates seem less slanted. Take your 'Simon Says' chap - the articles I read generally put his views forward but failed to state and then refute any opposing views. I would have been more impressed had the journalists been competent to explore the issue. Perhaps I found poor examples. Not to worry :}
Hey DG - if my son ever discovers what you have said, and that there is a scientific basis to his lifestyle, he will expect more resources than I could ever hope have.
Dave
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Dear Wullie,
Hello again, no comm. dir. for a while... hope you keep well.
Now, it seems we have had a bit of wet down here one way and another (don't forget Wales it does exist in GB!). Not sure how Bonnie Scot. has faired, so, one is either up to one's top end of Kilt in the stuff, or the Still has run dry... and one is making whiskey out of something we do not want to know about! Might be a good year... who knows..........
As to wet, weeeel. Happend before, happened now, and, guess what, it will happen again! - prob. more reg. than before, but this has happened on a reg. basis very regularly over the last 200 years... so, nothing new.
What do the media make of all this.......... well.... lot's and lot's and lot's... nothing to sell better than bad news, and, guess what, lot's and lot's seem to fall for it time, after time, after time, after time.............
Who is and are the fools in all this................................................................................??????????????????????? %% {-) LOL
Take no offence, just fun.
Regards, Bernard
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'The Guardian' DG I never read newspapers.....
You are quite correct that newspapers no longer provide sensible comment on anything. However, if you want to find out what Monbiot (the darling of the environmentalists) is saying you have to read the Guardian, because that's where he publishes....
Hey DG - if my son ever discovers what you have said, and that there is a scientific basis to his lifestyle, he will expect more resources than I could ever hope have.
As, I suspect, you have consumed more resources than your father, as did he compared to your grandfather...
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The difference being that the latest generation does not work - whereas his forebears always have <*<
DG - any idea how my son's eventual offspring are going to be provided with a further improved living standard? State benifits shrinking etc.
Dave
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The difference being that the latest generation does not work - whereas his forebears always have...
O0 O0 True enough! If you didn't work a few hundred years ago you died. I suspect that this is the first generation where living standards have improved so much that the option of doing little or nothing in your life exists for the general public....
DG - any idea how my son's eventual offspring are going to be provided with a further improved living standard? State benifits shrinking etc.
If we want to follow Simon's theory precisely, I have two answers:
1 - No, in detail I have no idea; and I can't know according to the theory! New resources and living techniques uncovered by future generations are by definition unknown by current generations. That's like asking someone from the 1600s how you could put a bridge over the Humber Estuary. A visionary from that period might believe it was possible, but would have no idea how...
2 - In general terms, Simon points out that resources are not just forests or coal deposits. They are what we do with them - in other words, what resources ARE depends on human ingenuity. And it is essentially human ingenuity that provides us with constantly increasing living standards. So long as human ingenuity remains limitless, children will continually enjoy a better living standard than their parents.
I did say that this was likely to produce a book-length discussion.... {:-{
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Fracking then....
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Just one question? Where is Engerland? Never heard of Engerland. Is it near Gelderland?
I live in Gelderland and I have looked at a local map and there is no sign of any Engerland, maybe it is in the County of Hardask?
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I live in Gelderland and I have looked at a local map and there is no sign of any Engerland, maybe it is in the County of Hardask?
Maybe you have been looking at a Black & White map ;D England, or Engerland as they sometimes shout at a football match,is next to Scotchland for some, but for those that live here, Scotland,or to those in Germany Schottland,
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Fracking then....
{-) an observation? or a suggestion for discussion Colin?
Pre recent deluge - in the 'drought' and hosepipe bans - how much water would they have been willing to pump into the ground had fracking not been suspended due to the earthquake? Does it also pollute water as the American experience seems to suggest?
see you tomorrow lads - off to work in a few minutes.
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No peace for the ******then,as for the drought,...drought conditions today up here, but back to monsoon conditions tomorrow",Roll on summer from a slot machine"as whatsisname used to say,and for those that don,t,....know,....purrrrrrr S
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Either your accent has broadened considerably Wullie, or good old Polaris is giving you secret lessons on posting {-) :-))
Last night I spent over an hour (near Alsager in Cheshire) under a deluge of tropical proportions - and no shelter to be had.
Dave
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No Rain as yet, but flood warnings for most of England,Wales,and everywhere else except here,long may it continue,...not the flooding
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Norseman, I think I might know what you are driving at re fracking. Others might not know the concept meaning of same. B.
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Norseman, I think I might know what you are driving at re fracking. Others might not know the concept meaning of same. B.
Well, it's had plenty of publicity in the papers as a method of releasing vast quantities of gas for energy. Just google the term for more information.
Colin
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Are we talking about Shale, i seem to remember something in the papers recently,that they wanted to drill some test holes around Blackpool,
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Yes, release of natural gas from shale deposits. Seems to have really paid off for the USA.
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Dear Wullie,
Whilst I told the Mayhem System not to respond it has. No matter.
Fracking is a tried and tested solution to obtain hydrocarbons from the ground. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the concept, it works. What is considered a problem, can be categorised. Oil shale in Scotland has been a long standing Ind., it could be a greater one indeed these days if it was allowed to b, and it would work very successfully there if applied.
There is not a problem anywhere with this tech., if 'they' told people what might happen what might happen in the short term. There will never be created 'major quake results'. Shakes maybe, but I would have no hesition in creating heavier shakes than there have been to create a significant oil or gas flow for GB. RIGHT.... for GB, anything that now happens oil/gas for GB should be for GB.... it has been Nationalised. Therefore, my only reservation is, that it is for GB. And, I include any North Sea Oil in this, we are GB, and in this I absolutely stand.
Regards, Bernard
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I can't substantiate what I say at this moment but I have seen water coming out of domestic taps that was being set alight ---- in America
meanwhile http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/fracking
I'll try and find a link to the documentary or something similar
Dave
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Yes I remember now,and if my old brain serves me well,there was some concern from locals regarding,the safety of Fracking,as to wether it could cause quakes,...i think i,d be more concerned about all underground testing of the Atom bombs,that went on ,than i would about looking for shale gas,
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It really depends what fracking does to our water _ I'm not decided yet.
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3 short vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO2A97itUyA&feature=related tapwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8&feature=fvwrel tapwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7e553S7fg&feature=related explanation animation
next are seven parts of a long documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phCibwj396I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=trcWlUsNIZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOFTQyUERGg&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdQ-rwe6f-Y&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI05ycbgQDY&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_e0jijVxtk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hup1fem9Oqo&feature=relmfu
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It really depends what fracking does to our water _ I'm not decided yet.
..more like what all the water that England did,nt have 2 months ago,is doing now, should be your main concern,
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C`mon Wullie, whit aboot" Paraffin Young" who wis extracting ile oot o` the West Lothian shale in 1850s or lang syne. Ye no mind o` him, yid jist be a wee bairn aboot then. %)
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Here is a Public Service Broadast for us Sassenachs looking in %)
Paraffin Young 2 reels
http://scotlandonscreen.org.uk/database/record.php?usi=007-000-000-031-C
http://scotlandonscreen.org.uk/database/record.php?usi=007-000-000-033-C&searchdb=scotscreen_scran&PHPSESSID=j33ngmlb93ce11ahqbl7qv8r94
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Fracking certainly made the earth move
Lt Kara Thrace ;)
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Don,t mention Paraffin tae,me i hate the stuff, ...memory from when i was but a wee laddie, c,mon now, jist a wee suppie o, liquid paraffin will dae ye the world o,good, an make yer bowels move awfy fest, {-) {-)...you,ll no doubt remember as well Duncan cause you,re aulder than me,
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3 short vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO2A97itUyA&feature=related tapwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8&feature=fvwrel tapwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7e553S7fg&feature=related explanation animation
next are seven parts of a long documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phCibwj396I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=trcWlUsNIZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOFTQyUERGg&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdQ-rwe6f-Y&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI05ycbgQDY&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_e0jijVxtk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hup1fem9Oqo&feature=relmfu
You don't want to believe all you see on youtube. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/04/the-gasland-movie-a-fracking-shame-director-pulls-video-to-hide-inconvenient-truths/ (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/04/the-gasland-movie-a-fracking-shame-director-pulls-video-to-hide-inconvenient-truths/)
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Sorry about my rather strident signature earlier , Martin has now kindly removed it for me!...Strident?????I thought it was Flashing,and i,m just sorry its gone,..now i,ll just have to find something a bit less Flashy,or is it Strident,....oooo! decisions,
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Avatar & Signature? :o
Your old Heinkel maybe?
(http://s16.postimage.org/3xumhuxkx/Wullie_s_Heinkel_Tourist103_A2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3xumhuxkx/)
Dave
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its a maybe, Dave,..the only drawback is,I never looked like the guy in the pic,...my jeans were never that clean,and the shades were a no,no, {-)
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Perhaps something more current then
and on topic - water saving
(http://s11.postimage.org/dfleu48kv/Wullie_Saving_Water.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dfleu48kv/)
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Perhaps something more current then
and on topic - water saving
(http://s11.postimage.org/dfleu48kv/Wullie_Saving_Water.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dfleu48kv/)
Dave, you are a Star,that pic is a cracker, in more ways than one,..when i was younger, i.e.10 through to my early twenties, my nickname was ...OMO,...cause my surname is Omelasz...so OMO was deemed the best nickname,can i adopt this as my Avatar and signature,...or is whatsisname going to find it offensive and revolting, {-) {-)
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Dave, you are a Star,that pic is a cracker, in more ways than one,..when i was younger, i.e.10 through to my early twenties, my nickname was ...OMO,...cause my surname is Omelasz...so OMO was deemed the best nickname,can i adopt this as my Avatar and signature,...or is whatsisname going to find it offensive and revolting, {-) {-)
Omelasz? thats a traditional Scotts name if ever I saw one lol
Shouldnt it be McOmelasz ;D
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No not Steptoe Per, I always pictured Wullie thus and driving the sidecar scooter combo O0
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Thats the Ukrainian side of me,but i also have a bit of German floating about inside, as i have a document from the 1800,s that has my GGG parents living in Upper Silesia,with the name of Omelasche,then at some point,during the late 1800,s they moved to Western Ukraine,
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A Lambretta /VW hybrid,...and a very very big Muss of bier, i,ve drank from the smaller muss, i.e. 1lt but this must be at least 5lt,
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If the Avatar suits you then why not have it
a box of OMO in an upstairs window means 'Old Man's Out' an invitation of some sort I believe %) O0
another bathtime http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5WW_l-PZZg&feature=related
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I don,t have an upstairs window!
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Still avoiding the window tax eh Wullie - old habits die hard north of Carisle.
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Watching a very soggy Silverstone Qualifying, don't know what you POMS are on about ;D
Nick
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Watching a very soggy Silverstone Qualifying, don't know what you POMS are on about ;D
Nick
Looks like there is enough water at Lake Silverstone to consider holding the Mayhem event there next year O0
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Or on the A720 outside Edinburgh,