Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: joppyuk1 on June 15, 2012, 12:22:23 pm
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This is my current project (not counting the ones on the back burner) and I hope to bring it to fruition fairly rapidly, for me at any rate, I once took three years to make my wife a spice rack! Without going into too much preamble, it involves building a 24inch electric powered HMS Hood from a plan available from Hobbies in 1940.
In order to make the build interesting I'm going to try doing it as it would have been done then. So, it's wartime, materials scarce, a basic tool kit (powered fretsaws were available, but no major power tools in the average home), glues were basic so no PVA, etc.
(http://s10.postimage.org/42bjn9dv9/plan.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/42bjn9dv9/)
this is the design sheet. thanks to Derick Scott of www.model-plans.co.uk
(http://s16.postimage.org/f02tqlbdt/and_instructions.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f02tqlbdt/)
and part of the instructions
(http://s17.postimage.org/an8f2j3dn/basic_toolkit.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/an8f2j3dn/)
finally, the basic tool kit, taken using details from the 1940s annual. Other items will probably creep in, but with care.
I hope to provide weekly updates if there is interest.
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This looks an interesting project Ian, especially the way you are doing it. Please more details and photos as you progress. :-))
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what a great idea. what glues did they have in 1940? will it be rc?
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What an unusual project. I shall look forward with interest as I'm sure it will bring back many childhood memories. :-)) :-))
Some of the members might be able to assist with factual details on various aspects and I hope to 'chip in' myself. Mind you, some of it might be worthless as your talking to ex child who cut the mains lead with a pair of scissors. <:(
Cheers
ken
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What an unusual project. I shall look forward with interest as I'm sure it will bring back many childhood memories. :-)) :-))
Some of the members might be able to assist with factual details on various aspects and I hope to 'chip in' myself. Mind you, some of it might be worthless as your talking to ex child who cut the mains lead with a pair of scissors. <:(
Cheers
ken
:embarrassed: I put a spoon in a 3 bear electric fire :embarrassed:
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The only way to learn .............................................................. <*<
This would make an interesting thread so I'll start one up and let joppyuk1 get on with his.
cheers
ken
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A little progress report is in order, and as I'm working ahead of my typing things are a bit further advanced than they may appear. I have been busy with the fretsaw, cutting the lifts from half-inch and quarter-inch balsa, and while recovering from cramp in the right hand I've put down a few preliminary thoughts.
My intention is to use the wartime 'make-do' ethos, by using whatever I have on hand, rather than going out buying the proper stuff. I'm sure that is probably how it went on. According to the plan I should be using deal for the hull, but this would mean shoving some planks through the thicknesser, which is against my rules! I have plenty of balsa about, so I'm using that.
According to the instructions I could buy a kit of wood (deal and satin walnut), dowel, motor, propeller, blade and shaft, wire, 8 turned metal guns, and screws, foor 11/6 plus 1/- postage. For comparison I did a quick check on current hobbies prices for the timber only, and this comes out at - balsa £30, obeche £82, and spruce £104. I have a prop and shaft but the only two motors lying around are a)too big or b)too small, so I'm going to have to purchase one.
Choice of glue was a problem. Modern glues are not allowed and a check of the 1940 annual shows only a choice of 6 adhesives. Two are paper pastes, then we have Tenastine, Ste-Fix, Hobbies Glue (all in tubes) and Croid Aero Glue in a tin (needing hot water to melt it). I haven't got any Croid (which I remember my father using) so I'm using clear tube UHU, as it's water-resistant and paint should seal it.
More pictures of progress next time.
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keep the pictures posted fella :-))
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I suppose, if grandad had access to a Mosquito factory, he could have "acquired" some aerolite (urea-formaldehyde) glue. :-)) %)
(Great idea for a thread, btw.)
Andy
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:embarrassed: I put a spoon in a 3 bear electric fire :embarrassed:
I bet that put them off their Porridge!!! O0
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hi ya there
enjoying the build :-))
I did something similar to this a while ago, with the Hobbies plan of the launch where I only stuck faithful to the plan and its method of build - but not to the materials - I used modern day materials. Its somewhere on this forum under 'the year I was born' title.
When was Cascamite glue first produced?
was it in the 40s or after the war?
cos that would be a suitable glue, if you can use it.
aye
john
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A couple of answers first. Mad Mike, no it won't have rc, mainly because the original didn't have and I doubt the 'average' chap would have access, especially in wartime. There is probably room for a small modern set-up inside the hull though, so it could be done. Bluebird, as far as I can find out, Cascamite didn't come along until the early/mid 50's, much like many of the other wartime developements. I said earlier that the 1940 handbook had a limited number of glues listed, by the 1945 issue this was zero!
(http://s15.postimage.org/4xm5v4tg7/hull.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4xm5v4tg7/)
Here's the completed hull, just needs lots of sanding to get the shape and lose all the irregulatities. The plan had no hull sections, or indication on its shape at all, so it's basically a slab-sided box pointed at both ends
(http://s12.postimage.org/g60mg3khl/hullplusdeck.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g60mg3khl/)
this shows the lift-out deck section giving access to the batteries. I'm off to the bike shop later today to see if I can still get the old flat battery used in bike lights. There is no allowance for a battery box, in fact the picture in the instructions just shows the batteries sitting loose on the hull floor.
That's progress this week, it's going slower than expected as real life keeps getting in the way, and I've got at least three other, unrelated, projects on the go at the same time.
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you may well be out of luck if its the battery I'm thinking of
I think the battery you want is the ever ready 800... I was looking for one a while back for a neighbors bike
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14394.0
Have a look in the first post and if thats the same as the one you are looking for then please let me know if you manage to find a supplier as I had no luck at all.
We ended up making a custom battery box that took 2 AA cells,
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This weeks instalment has been a lot of painting, sanding, painting, sanding, painting ... you know how it goes,(a couple of primer pots I have left over, Barracuda Red and Dove Grey) but in the meantime I've been roughing out the pieces for the forward superstructure. This consists of an assortment of solid shape from 1/4inch, 3/16inch, 1/8inch, and 1/16inch timber, all to be shaped and sanded then glued one on top of the other. The photo should give you some idea. I've also been trying to track down the correct batteries, either an Ever Ready 800 or a 1289, but local shops (bike, electrical, and hardware) seem to think they are discontinued - apart from one chap who shall be nameless, telling me 'if it's not on the rack we haven't got it'. The wartime ethos of the build tells me I musn't try online.
A piece of the instructions shows the arrangement.
(http://s15.postimage.org/tof5bmdhz/rough_superstructure.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tof5bmdhz/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/kp0yphyrj/motor_comp.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kp0yphyrj/)
The other thing I've been trying to work out is, how the switch works. I can see it's a simple contact switch turned by moving the turret, but the instructions give no indication how to p
ivot the turret to make contact. Also, the switch is open to the elements at one side, so I can see water causing problems. This is one instance where I might revert to a normal push switch.
(http://s9.postimage.org/vq0qvry0b/switch.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vq0qvry0b/)
see you
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I think with regards to the battery. You could source one online and not be breaking with the "as grandad did it" ethos, as the batteries would have been avaialble almost everywhere at that time
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I'm fairly sure that the "flat" batteries were 4.5 volt 3 cell jobbies intended for use in flat pocket torches, each cell the same proportions as, but bigger than, an "AA". They were good for models because you could hook the wiring up using paper clips. The bike front lamp batteries were usually 3 volt types, two cells a bit bigger than present day "D" cells. Since the rules back then limited you to what was available, I can't see a valid reason to avoid substituting a modern equivalent. If it had been made back then, and still existed, and you wanted it to run again, you would fit modern batteries anyway.
I well remember Tenacatine - you could get it from the corner sweet/tobacconist/lead soldier shop, and it did a great job of sticking Micromodels and Bilteezi card models, but, as I found out, it was very water soluble. Back then for sticking wood it would probably be the stuff made from melted bits of animal that you had to heat in a kettle - and then hoping that the paint would keep the water out.
Stick with the story that grandad had a mate who worked in a shoe factory - certainly immediately post war and possibly during the war, in that trade they used a rubbery glue that was called "solution", and was later to appear in shops as the original Evo-stick. At least, it looked, acted and smelled the same. The UHU is probably a good substitute, but I have a vague feeling that UHU is/was a German company, so its products were probably in short supply then.
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This weeks instalment has been a lot of painting, sanding, painting, sanding, painting ... you know how it goes,(a couple of primer pots I have left over, Barracuda Red and Dove Grey) but in the meantime I've been roughing out the pieces for the forward superstructure. This consists of an assortment of solid shape from 1/4inch, 3/16inch, 1/8inch, and 1/16inch timber, all to be shaped and sanded then glued one on top of the other. The photo should give you some idea. I've also been trying to track down the correct batteries, either an Ever Ready 800 or a 1289, but local shops (bike, electrical, and hardware) seem to think they are discontinued - apart from one chap who shall be nameless, telling me 'if it's not on the rack we haven't got it'. The wartime ethos of the build tells me I musn't try online.
A piece of the instructions shows the arrangement.
(http://s15.postimage.org/tof5bmdhz/rough_superstructure.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tof5bmdhz/)
(http://s11.postimage.org/kp0yphyrj/motor_comp.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kp0yphyrj/)
The other thing I've been trying to work out is, how the switch works. I can see it's a simple contact switch turned by moving the turret, but the instructions give no indication how to p
ivot the turret to make contact. Also, the switch is open to the elements at one side, so I can see water causing problems. This is one instance where I might revert to a normal push switch.
(http://s9.postimage.org/vq0qvry0b/switch.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/vq0qvry0b/)
see you
sadly these batteries were discontinued a few years back,we called them bell batteries as thats what powered most door bells at that time.My first scale model battleship was powered with 4 of these connected together using paper clips, and driving a 46" boat with two 3-6 volt orbit motors on 4 shafts ,and gave a reasonable scale speed for around an hour before running down,the best bit is they were also cheap as well.
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Duracell make them as I use them in a head torch
http://www.paperstone.co.uk/prod_24300_2243-2244-2245_Duracell-Plus-Power-Battery-Alkaline-4.5V-Ref-13279012.aspx?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=comparsionshopping&utm_campaign=googleproducts&p1=hSPWtJeoCzI1&gclid=CJWxppKy-LACFZMctAodwQ5E9g
Dave
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Things have been a little slow this last couple of weeks because, first, my elderly mother (94) was rushed into hospital about ten days ago after a fall and she is still undergoing tests and treatment, so we've been doing some long distance visiting (she lives in Lincolnshire while we're in Suffolk), and second, I somehow misinterpreted part of the instructions for the forward superstructure and had to remake most of it. The photos show progress to date.
(http://s13.postimage.org/9yej9anmb/101_0295.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9yej9anmb/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/x1455mr8l/101_0297.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/x1455mr8l/)
finally, I'm having problems with the secondary armament along the sides. These are basically blunt triangles of 1/8inch wood with a piece of metal rod pushed through, and I have so far made two units and spoiled quite a few more. I will have to use a smaller diameter metal rod and drill carefully. A modern mini-drill would have made short work of it! The photo shows what I mean, though I apologise for the poor quality.
(http://s8.postimage.org/7ooxvb6hd/101_0298.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/7ooxvb6hd/)
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What date are we talking - 1940? I don't think balsa of that size would have been available then - something like obeche might have been - though I could be wrong on that.
I'm a bit surer that the KaKo motor would not have been available. The plan shows a Trix motor, and these are readily available from ebay. There are three there at the moment, including one as a 'buy it now' for £15 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Trix-Permag-Electric-Motor-DC-4-8-Volts-Box-A545-/251117299333?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a77c1e685 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Trix-Permag-Electric-Motor-DC-4-8-Volts-Box-A545-/251117299333?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a77c1e685) That has a box - the others are auctions but will probably be cheaper...
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Thank you for that info, I'll look into the motor. I'm trying to stick to the principle of using what I have available at the moment, lying around in the shed. So far. touch wood, I have not had to buy anything. I've made no progress over the last couple of weeks as I have to keep visiting my elderly mother in Lincolnshire, who is on extended hospital stay and likely to remain so for some time, and as shes 94 in a couple of weeks it's no joke.
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Re battery:
http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63415
but I bet someone somewher in India still makes 'em.
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The batteries are no problem at all. The ones shown in the plan are not 800s but 3R12s.
3R12 4.5v batteries are still made by several companies - Just google '3R12'. Here is an example - http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_3r12.htm (http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_3r12.htm) . If you want a really poor performance you can still buy the original zinc-carbon ones! And you can get adaptors as well if you want use Ni-MH cells but still keep the flat battery pack...
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A little progress report is in order, and as I'm working ahead of my typing things are a bit further advanced than they may appear. I have been busy with the fretsaw, cutting the lifts from half-inch and quarter-inch balsa, and while recovering from cramp in the right hand I've put down a few preliminary thoughts.
My intention is to use the wartime 'make-do' ethos, by using whatever I have on hand, rather than going out buying the proper stuff. I'm sure that is probably how it went on. According to the plan I should be using deal for the hull, but this would mean shoving some planks through the thicknesser, which is against my rules! I have plenty of balsa about, so I'm using that.
According to the instructions I could buy a kit of wood (deal and satin walnut), dowel, motor, propeller, blade and shaft, wire, 8 turned metal guns, and screws, foor 11/6 plus 1/- postage. For comparison I did a quick check on current hobbies prices for the timber only, and this comes out at - balsa £30, obeche £82, and spruce £104. I have a prop and shaft but the only two motors lying around are a)too big or b)too small, so I'm going to have to purchase one.
Choice of glue was a problem. Modern glues are not allowed and a check of the 1940 annual shows only a choice of 6 adhesives. Two are paper pastes, then we have Tenastine, Ste-Fix, Hobbies Glue (all in tubes) and Croid Aero Glue in a tin (needing hot water to melt it). I haven't got any Croid (which I remember my father using) so I'm using clear tube UHU, as it's water-resistant and paint should seal it.
More pictures of progress next time.
Wasn't 'Scotch' glue available in the 40's, the stuff you melt in a pot, made from animal bones and comes as little brown pellets. I think It was used for veneering...
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Wasn't 'Scotch' glue available in the 40's, the stuff you melt in a pot, made from animal bones and comes as little brown pellets. I think It was used for veneering...
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
The smell of that hot glue takes me back to woodworking classes at school, at 15 I made a pair of 5 tread steps.
Children nowadays do not get the oportunities to do anything as there are no workshops in schools.
Len.
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Good grief! it's nearly two years since I looked at this project. Now, after various bouts of heart surgery and problems with the waterworks I can get back into the shed and finish it off. I've got to, there are other models I want to make. I'll post photos of current state soon, and go from there. I'm still trying to maintain the 'cheap and austerity' style of using basic tools and material I have lying around, so that precluded buying a period motor or any batteries. So far the ship doesn't bear close inspection, but doesn't look too bad from a distance - i.e. on the water. Definitely NOT a scale model in any way.
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As promised, here is the model in her current state as of last sunday. Since then I've been working on the mainmast, AA guns and searchlights, which are being painted at the moment. External work nearly finished.
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Hi there joppyuk1. Sorry to hear that you have not been well, I hope the future will better for you, and that you are now fighting fit. I can't belive that it was two years since your last post. I remember reading it like was only a few weeks ago. I am looking forward to seeing the end product of this build, as it has taken me way back in time. All the best too you.
Phil
East Devon
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Finally, a picture of the (almost) completed exterior. Just the ensign and radio ariel between masts to fit now, though I may leave the latter of to make removal of the trap easier. I've left of the lifeboats on davits either side, as they hung out and may get damaged by over enthusiastic catchers (free running, no r/c), and taken the liberty of turning one of the 'large boats' into the very vague resemblance of a picket boat. Next up, fitting the motor and battery, and ballasting.
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Over the weekend I managed to get the ballast sorted, with a couple of deviations from the original. The instructions said to use a 1lb bar attached to the bottom with screws, but I went for internal lead instead (I'd already made the stand and forgotten to allow for external ballast) and the model needed more like 2lb to get it floating near the waterline. Perhaps because I used balsa rather than the original specified deal. A quiet Saturday afternoon melting down old and damaged lead soldiers, all self-cast so no collectables destroyed in this exercise, into a home made mould. Health and safety was followed, I used glasses, heavy gloves, apron, tin tray on floor for spills. A change from chopping wood about. Sorry about the pictures, but my garage isn't condusive to decent photos, and I don't do this sort of thing in the shed.
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And, finally a last floatation test in the water before heading to the nearest model boat pond for some straight running. According to Hobbies magazine of the times, this system could be used to turn many of their waterline models into powered units, so the question is, as I have a number of their plans, some of which I show, what should I do next. Here's a picture of some of the collection, though I fancy going for HMS Exeter from the 1941 Handbook.
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The smell of that hot glue takes me back to woodworking classes at school, at 15 I made a pair of 5 tread steps.
Children nowadays do not get the oportunities to do anything as there are no workshops in schools.
Len.
Piffle, we had a workshop at primary, secondary, sixth form college and of course the engoneering department at university! Infact I blame my love of building things squarely at the feet of my primary head master. We built everything from a Tudor house to a model metal press that was computer controlled!
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Hi joppyuk1, which motor did you end up fitting?
regards
Roy
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It's quite a small motor from my box of bits, goodness knows where it's from originally, but the label says it's a 457-RE14C. It still has to be tried out on the boating pool proper but seems ok on the little paddling pool.
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Hi joppyuk1 you have a PM.
Roy
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Shame about the soldiers, they might like being apart of the Royal Navy though!
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They were press-ganged and had no say in the matter!
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Hi Joppy you have a PM.
Roy
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reply sent, thank you.
ij
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Hi Joppy you have a PM.
Roy