Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Artistmike on July 13, 2012, 02:55:52 PM

Title: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 13, 2012, 02:55:52 PM
I was given this old hull some time ago with a view to restoration but have always thought of it as a bit of a big job and almost forgot about it.  However I think I'm now in the right frame of mind to give it a go, I realise it's going to be a bit of a long job and during it would be grateful of any advice from anyone who has attempted the same sort of restoration...  :-)

I believe it's an old 36R class boat from it's length of 36 inches and it's other dimensions and the original mast is some 53 inches high. The hull seems very sound indeed though the keel weight obviously became detached at some time but it's been well made so my first job will be to remove the deck by drilling out old screws that won't unscrew, nails etc and then get at the insides to see what needs doing, before I start the hard work.

I may well restore it as original as possible, if I can find enough details and parts, and complement that with optional radio control.  Anyway, day one.... as I say I won't be rushing it but hopefully will end up with a nice working pond yacht when it's finished.  :D

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-1.jpg)

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-2.jpg)

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: tony52 on July 14, 2012, 07:28:17 PM
The Vintage Model Yacht Group may be a source of information.

http://www.vmyg.org.uk/
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 14, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
The Vintage Model Yacht Group may be a source of information.
http://www.vmyg.org.uk/

Yes, I've already dropped an e-mail to Russell Potts and he's kindly passed on a bit of information but like many of these early models, it's difficult to track down it's pedigree though he pointed me in the direction of a 36 Restricted class model called Babette by W.J Daniels, which he feels is similar . Still, I'll plod on through with the restoration process. The hull is in great condition so I've a good base to start from and I'll get a suit of sails made later as I don't trust my sewing skills.  :embarrassed: 

I need also to source some nice brass fittings, so I've got to start on a list of bits and pieces that I need to get it looking right.... It should be nice when it's finished though..... however long that may take.  :D
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: tony52 on July 15, 2012, 07:56:34 AM
Seeing the quadrant in the photographs, was a braine steering system used? Are your restoration plans for braine, vane or r/c.

Good luck with the restoration, please keep us updated with progress.

Tony.
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 15, 2012, 12:27:13 PM
Seeing the quadrant in the photographs, was a braine steering system used? Are your restoration plans for braine, vane or r/c.
Tony.

Yes, originally presumably it must have had Braine gear as the quadrant is there, so what I'm hoping is to get a new working Braine system going on it but also install some covert R/C to make life easier, even if it's only a simple assisted steering system but I'll see how I go as I go along and find out how easy it is to source original style parts for it.   ... I want it to look as original as I possibly can but at my age I'm too old to go running around the lake after an errant Braine system so some R/C will hopefully sort that out !  :embarrassed:

I'll post some photos as I go along but I'm more than happy to accept any advice as it's the first time I've restored anything like this.....  :D
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: tony52 on July 15, 2012, 02:38:44 PM
Some years ago I built and fitted a vane steering system to a Marblehead yacht and you are quite right in saying that you will need to be fit to go running around the lake. At the more mature years in life this is big consideration. I also noticed with the vane, is the social side is missed out on, whilst everyone is having a cup of tea and putting the world to right, you are practicing for the 100 metre sprint!

Whatever system you choose once again good luck with the project. The 36R was always a good manageable class.
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 31, 2012, 04:43:47 PM
I'm pleased that I made the decision not to chemically strip all the old paint off the hull, but rather to spend a week using a Stanley knife scraper to remove what appeared to be a few layers of Dulux or similar plastic type paint !

What I've managed to find underneath is two things, the truly original hull colours of Green and Cream/White and even more importantly, the correct waterline, which was a real bonus as it will be very easy to mask to this line when re-painting.  That's now saved the decision of what colours to paint and I shall now do some gentle filling in of imperfections to get the hull nice and smooth before the next stage.....


(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Nordsee on August 09, 2012, 11:34:27 AM
What a lovely Project! I think these old hulls were so graceful, my new Club is purely Racing, IOM and Marbleheads and is speed at any price! Still they have a nice water only 10 minutes away and they are friendly enough, when not racing that is!!
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 09, 2012, 12:11:53 PM
What a lovely Project! I think these old hulls were so graceful, my new Club is purely Racing, IOM and Marbleheads and is speed at any price! Still they have a nice water only 10 minutes away and they are friendly enough, when not racing that is!!

Funnily enough I changed clubs precisely for that reason. My old club were IOM racers and if you took anything else to the water and didn't race, you were rather regarded as somewhat weird ! Of course racing has it's place but not at the expense of everything else as far as I'm concerned so I've moved over to a more sedate bunch, in another club, who have every sort of boat imaginable and I can just cruise my yachts around.  There's a few of us have Micro-Magics so we do occasionally have a few races around the buoys but it's not cut-throat and done just for fun.  %%
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 18, 2012, 10:58:47 AM
Slowly but surely I'm almost to the stage where the hull is ready for final detailed filling and sanding, prior to starting the painting process. I had to repair the keel fin and then re-attach the lead weight, which weighs in at 6lbs. The original screws were used for this as they were long brass ones and are in lovely condition. The fin at the top where it joined the hull and bottom where it meets the lead were faired using filler to get a nice smooth streamlined profile.

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-7.jpg)

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-5.jpg)

The rudder post had failed due to fatigue, by the looks of things, so using the original rudder I had to construct a new unit out of a variety of brass tubes and rod, fixed to the rudder as per the original by drilling through the brass. It seems to have come out a very solid job, rotating at the bottom on a brass pintle which allows the whole rudder to be lifted a little and removed, if necessary and with the deck on and old quadrant attached it seems to work fine. Designing an RC link to it, that is not to obvious, will be a job for when I'm ready to put the deck back on..... .  All going well so far then, if a little slowly, but I'm in no rush.. :-)

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-6.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 18, 2012, 02:16:01 PM
Oh, and the lead weight is secured by three large screws which, as I said, screw vertically into the wood of the fin. The lead weight has these holes countersunk by about three quarters of an inch so in order for these not to be obvious on the finished build, I made wooden dowels to fill the holes left, after I had inserted the screws and these were then covered with a small surface of filler.

The aim of this is to make it easier for anyone attempting restoration in the future to remove the lead. I shall make a note of this, along with other build notes, in a small laminated document left in the hull, which should hopefully last till then and be of help to anyone doing the work. That is, if it doesn't sink in the meantime !  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Stavros on August 18, 2012, 10:59:30 PM
looks good nice one


Dave
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: mrpenguin on August 19, 2012, 12:54:24 AM
@ArtistMike:

Nice work on the rudder repair - looks really good.

Thinking that it would pay to check that the rudder tube through the hull is intact and waterproof as well while in that area.

You mention that the rudder can lift off the pintle, presumably meaning there is a bit of slap in the rudder shaft - should not be a problem if the rudder tube is continuous through the hull.

However does this mean that the rudder could lift off while sailing? There may be times during sailing when the rudder experiences some upward thrust.... if it came out of the pintle while at sea things could get ugly... :((
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 19, 2012, 07:27:05 AM
@ArtistMike:

Thinking that it would pay to check that the rudder tube through the hull is intact and waterproof as well while in that area.
You mention that the rudder can lift off the pintle, presumably meaning there is a bit of slap in the rudder shaft - should not be a problem if the rudder tube is continuous through the hull.
However does this mean that the rudder could lift off while sailing? There may be times during sailing when the rudder experiences some upward thrust.... if it came out of the pintle while at sea things could get ugly... :((

Yes the deck is off at the moment and that's enabled me to work inside the hull.  The original rudder tube was in very good condition, so it was carefully removed, checked, the small pin fixing it to the bottom of the hull replaced and then I used a small amount of Isopon to bond the tube in place to the bottom of the hull, which has the added benefit of completely waterproofing it. 

Funnily enough, I thought about exactly what you said about the rudder lifting when sailing. I've re-made the pintle arrangement so that to remove the rudder it has to be lifted right up and then the tube only just clears it to be removed, it's tight and takes some care to remove it so I'm hoping that won't happen by accident and the weight of the brass rod and quadrant should help. As it's copying faithfully the original way it was made I've got my fingers crossed that it will be enough to make sure nothing happens but if I do get problems, I may have to have a re-think. :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on August 19, 2012, 10:57:19 AM
Hi interesting thread and my favourite pastime.  The last few of yachts I have done over, I mounted the pintle on a bracket that screws vertically  into the keel, that way the rudder can be dropped in the usual way.  I have in the past used a brass screw as the pintle, using a nut on a bracket and another to lock it in place.  If the keel is metal at this point then bury a nut and use machine screws.

As far as RC operation of the rudder goes, with the various lines and elastic going to the Braine quadrant a couple more lines to the quadrant won't notice going to a servo.  The lines can be taken in through tubes into a deck hatch or via tubes mounted on deck.  I used curved tubes instead of pulleys, cheaper too!  Never had any wear on the tubes either even with monofilament line.

The rudder servo lines can be hooked into the holes in the quadrant at the working end easily disconnected when not needed.
very interesting look forward to the continuing saga.
regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 19, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
As far as RC operation of the rudder goes, with the various lines and elastic going to the Braine quadrant a couple more lines to the quadrant won't notice going to a servo.  The lines can be taken in through tubes into a deck hatch or via tubes mounted on deck.  I used curved tubes instead of pulleys, cheaper too!  Never had any wear on the tubes either even with monofilament line.

The rudder servo lines can be hooked into the holes in the quadrant at the working end easily disconnected when not needed.
very interesting look forward to the continuing saga.
regards Roy

Cheers Roy, that's just the sort of system that I'm hoping to build on mine. I'm still deciding where I'm going to put the lines at the moment. I've a spare Hitec drum winch that will do nicely for the sails and I want to put that, plus the steering servo just under the existing hatch and I'm hoping that I can access those, plus the batteries, without having to open up the deck any more as I want to keep that original. Also the deck will be screwed back in place so there will be no other access point when everything is installed, unless it's an emergency.... decisions decisions!  {:-{

I still have to try to find some suitable missing parts for the Braine system too, that or make them, so there's still plenty to be done...... I'm also still trying to work out whether these holes on the fore part of the deck were there for a Jib Rack or for bands to hold down a small bowsprit.... It's difficult to know to be honest and either way, the parts aren't there to identify it either way.....

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/restoration-8.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: mrpenguin on August 19, 2012, 01:23:30 PM
@ArtistMike:

I am guessing the foredeck holes in pairs (circled in green) may be for a bowsprit.
The hole circled in red is more likely location for jib attachment point I would think.
Hole at bow tip (yellow circle) may be for a forestay?
(http://s17.postimage.org/dzv7j9197/foredeck.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dzv7j9197/)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 19, 2012, 01:57:34 PM
I am guessing the foredeck holes in pairs (circled in green) may be for a bowsprit.
The hole circled in red is more likely location for jib attachment point I would think.
Hole at bow tip (yellow circle) may be for a forestay?
(http://s17.postimage.org/dzv7j9197/foredeck.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/dzv7j9197/)

I think the hole in red is just that bit too far back to be for the jib attachment, to be honest and the one in yellow could have just been one of the deck screws........ which leaves me back with a bowsprit or jib rack, or... just possibly .. something similar to this Bassett-Lowke Endeavour model which had twin jibs......   All very difficult but the more I look the more I'm thinking bowsprit which most boats of this age had, albeit short ones.  The mast I do have and that just shouts sloop rig ... not easy making these sorts of decisions with so little to go on really..  :(( ... god fun though  :D

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/Artistmike/endeavour2.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on August 19, 2012, 05:17:12 PM
Hi don't mean to be pushy but does this picture of the Braine diagram help?
regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 19, 2012, 06:04:22 PM
Hi don't mean to be pushy but does this picture of the Braine diagram help?
regards Roy

All help very gratefully received but yes, I have that picture plus a few photos of working ones, I just need to find out where I can buy parts, like the pin-rack, or work out how to make one.  %% .... :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 23, 2012, 11:29:40 AM
I knocked up a quick stand for the yacht and while I was at it assembled all the parts I have so far to see what she looks like. I'm fairly convinced now that she had a bowsprit so I added a piece of dowel to what looked like the right proportions just to see how it looks. As you can see from the mast height, she's going to carry a fair bit of sail too !  :-)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7276/7843661990_1fb177e050_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843661990/)
Pond Yacht 9 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843661990/) by Artistmike (http://www.flickr.com/people/18888931@N08/), on Flickr

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7115/7843662366_e6132b9e40_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843662366/)
Pond Yacht 10 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843662366/) by Artistmike (http://www.flickr.com/people/18888931@N08/), on Flickr

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/7843661566_8f07d8bb65_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843661566/)
restoration-11 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18888931@N08/7843661566/) by Artistmike (http://www.flickr.com/people/18888931@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on August 27, 2012, 12:48:34 PM
Hi Artistmike, the Braine steering is just a trimming system as you know.  I don't think you will have much rudder control under RC when the wind gets up.  It is worth making a bigger rudder but not much bigger, when she is heeled over the rudder is more like the elevator on an aircraft.

36's usually had 3 sets of sails in competition so that they could sail in the most efficient way, which is upright.
I have a yacht of similar size so just passing on my observations, hope they help.

good luck, I do feel a bit jealous!

regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 27, 2012, 01:56:09 PM
Cheers Roy

Yes, it's all a bit 'suck it and see' with this one as I've only got the hull and mast to go on, so not even a sail plan but it's going to be fun...  :-)   . When it's in a sail-able condition, if I find the rudder is insufficient it will be quite easy to try different sizes and shapes to see what suits it best, now that I've made it fully de-mountable.  I'm hoping though that the original builder has sorted out that problem and this one does it's job... fingers crossed !

I'm used to racing my IOM so the multiple suits of sails thing I'm used to, but this boat, due to it's stately age, which due to its design must be somewhere in the region of 100 yrs old, will probably end up as just a light airs cruiser for my club water, to be used just on high days and holidays and the rest of the time a bit of a show-piece.. Mind you having said that it's of very solid construction, being Bread and Butter, so I've no doubt if I do the job properly it will go on sailing another 100 years....  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on August 27, 2012, 04:18:57 PM
Hi AM, the 36 class dates from 1929 and the Braine rudder control from 1904. So you are getting there!  I would not bet on the original builder having sorted out the problems!

I have an old yacht in need of TLC and probably 100 + years old. (woodscrew plank on frame). The comment from the VMYG was that as it was in very good condition, probably put away in a loft, because it was not competitive so had been put to one side!

regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 27, 2012, 05:09:25 PM
What's what's interesting about this one. The rudder design is early, most of the early 36R yachts that you see have the later separate rudder, mounted vertically , slightly aft of the keel. This design definitely harks back to earlier pond yacht designs, but with Braine gear , yet it conforms to the 36R rule as far as size of hull is concerned although the hull again has the lovely overhangs fore and aft so typical of earlier designs. All very strange ....  %%

It's a fascinating boat to be working with though and as you say, the builder may have been learning as he went along ! :-)

So when are you restoring your one? And have you got any photos?
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on August 28, 2012, 09:32:36 AM
Hi A/M, I think I can find some pictures somewhere.  I stopped because I did something stupid!  I did not know it at the time but there we are.

The yacht is a "pond yacht" but had a rather iffy set of deck planks drawn on with a pencil.  Also the planks were tapered at each end, so there were the same number of planks across the deck.  I at the time thought this a bit strange so decided to clean up the deck by scraping down and doing them again.  The deck is a single piece of wood, not ply.

In the process I read some more info on full size yachts and found that Victorian Gentleman's yachts did indeed have tapered deck planks.  I was so peed off with myself that I stopped work!  I suppose that is the way we learn!

I should also say the the boat came to me with some swaps for radio control equipment and the previous owner had decided to waterproof the inside of the boat with roofing black paint / tar, which will not come off!
The hull planks were very well done and screwed on but started to shrink, I prised off the deck in one piece and revealed some very thin planking due to being rubbed down.  I strengthened this and started water treatment to get the planks to absorb water and swell again and this seemed to work.  Just wish I had left the deck alone!

The project is still in my head and will get done but at the moment I am working on a Zwarte Zee (original plank on frame) rescued from a loft 2 months ago.  A customs launch and a small schooner. I am also doing the admin for our annual exhibition.
So apart from the above I go ballroom dancing 2 / 3 times a week, play bridge and am a club secretary and like to cook, as you can surmise I am retired!

regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on August 28, 2012, 10:21:51 AM
Well Roy, we all do things like that, that's for sure !  It's one of the reasons that the progress on my pond yacht restoration is fairly slow. It's the only one I have, so I'm scared of messing anything up and instead of working to the old adage of ' measure twice and cut once ' I have modified that to 'measure fifty times and cut once' and still it's easy to mess up !   {:-{

Half the fun though is overcoming the problems and when you finish, the pain tends to go away ...... One alternative to water in restoring shrunken planks is lots of linseed oil or a linseed oil bath even, and it tends to make a more permanent job of it....           Is the external hull varnished or painted, because you could actually put a coat of resin on externally to waterproof it, .... just thinking out loud really. ....

The deck on mine is solid and of one piece too, a piece of 3/16th pine, which luckily is in nice condition and the deck lines have been nicely engraved. Might it be worth making a new deck for yours ? Actually I think it's worth having a few jobs on the go, it's often when you walk away from a problem and let your subconscious simmer on it, that it will pop up an answer further down the line....

Yes I'm retired too, though I still paint just for the pleasure of it but it's so difficult to find the time now to do everything I want !  :((
 ...





Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 06, 2012, 02:48:51 PM
At this stage I've installed the Radio Control system, at the moment it's following normal two channel procedure but should I decide later I need a further trim for the jib it will be easy to install one up the fore end.

I had a spare Hitec Sail Winch HS-725BB from a IOM boat so that's what I'm starting with and a standard Hitec servo for the rudder but with a long double servo arm, to give me more throw, that will work the rudder using cordage through two Nylet Sheet Leads onto the Braine Quadrant. I'm using similar sheet leads for the jib and main sheets too.  I've used Nylet pulley blocks internally fore and aft too for the winch run, I'm trying to make sure that when the deck is replaced, it has to come off as few times as possible so things internally are being built nice and strongly !  I have access through the hatch but I'm hoping that will just be for battery charging and checking the receiver. The deck will be removable as nothing is fool-proof but as I say, hopefully not too often !  :-)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8455/7943316968_cac3859b94_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: mrpenguin on September 06, 2012, 11:47:58 PM
@ArtistMike:
As you have it set up, if you needed to rethread the winch you have to remove the deck - this would be a big job I would think?
Also if you get a tangle , the winch may damage the boat at one of the anchor points.

There is an alternative method of doing a continuous winch loop below decks so you do not have to remove the deck to access winch ends.
The setup is identical to what you have except it is built on a strength member eg a piece of aluminium box section or such
The idea is that you build the entire winch loop setup as a separate module that then installs into the boat thru the hatch.
 
This idea works best if the hatch is more toward the stern as the module will be about 300-400mm long for a 1 metre boat.

There is an example built like this here (although this is a minature with limit switches, but should convey the general idea):
http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/miniature-sail-winch/537/

HTH
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 07, 2012, 07:35:38 AM
hi  HTH

Yes, one of the reasons I've been slow getting to this stage is that I have in fact been attempting to toy with a removable set-up but the flipping access I have into the hull with the deck on, is just far too small to be practical unfortunately and I really don't want to enlarge that and alter the deck, any more than I have to. .... The deck will be removable, as in screwed down as per the original design, but I'm trying to make the installation as simple and fool-proof as possible, so that the need for access is not a common occurrence.

The set-up I'm doing shouldn't tangle, it's tried and tested in my IOMs and when the plastic tubing from the deck for the sheets is installed, there's no contact between lines, fingers crossed !  :-)  Of course I've built in the normal weak point in the way of some elastic which tensions the system but it also acts a fail-safe. I'm pretty confident that, in the event of anything going amiss, that will snap long before the hull gets damaged as that's made of half inch thick solid pine, ... you'd need a sledgehammer to make any impression on that ! 
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: triumphjon on September 07, 2012, 07:59:13 AM
ive been watvhing your restoration with interest , i too took on an old pond yacht last year and converted to modern rc , ive not yet ventured into drum winches ( ive bougt a new hitec one thats sitting in its box )  for my build ive used the arm servos , but ive made a second hatch into the hull above my two sail servos , which is normally screwed closed unless its for maintenance . could you not have another acsess into the hull disgiused as a cabin etc ? jon
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 07, 2012, 08:21:49 AM
ive been watvhing your restoration with interest , i too took on an old pond yacht last year and converted to modern rc , ive not yet ventured into drum winches ( ive bougt a new hitec one thats sitting in its box )  for my build ive used the arm servos , but ive made a second hatch into the hull above my two sail servos , which is normally screwed closed unless its for maintenance . could you not have another acsess into the hull disgiused as a cabin etc ? jon

I want to do as little as possible to the existing hull and deck externally really Jon, so that I keep it all looking as original as possible when it's sailing.  ....I did think a lot about making those sorts of alterations and even at one stage making a totally new deck for it with the sort of arrangement you mention but in the end came down on the side of keeping it as close as possible to how it would have looked when it was on the water about a hundred years ago when it was sailing.

I use arm servos on my smaller yachts too but with a main boom of this length, over twenty-one inches, and a big mainsail on top of it,  %%  a drum winch is a lot more practical.  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on September 07, 2012, 09:21:41 AM
Hi AM following the thread with interest.  I have used the system referred to by MrP based on a dowel rod with a pulley at the end, I have to admit I have not had to remove it since installation but it is the inevitability of breakage and repair that conditions us.  As against the glue it all in place it is not worth repairing ideas from  China.

I am also starting to make notes on how my various models operate as the memory cannot always be relied on.
regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 07, 2012, 10:25:35 AM
I am also starting to make notes on how my various models operate as the memory cannot always be relied on.
regards Roy

Isn't that the truth !   O0  ... I'm doing the same for mine, partially as I know the fallibility of memory and also, when I do eventually leave this mortal coil, I shall pass them on to a family member who has in interest in modelling so he can carry on using them and it will save him having to try to decipher all my wiring as it's all somewhat idiosyncratic.  {-) ...
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: JayDee on September 07, 2012, 11:07:46 AM

Hello Mike,

Leave your Winch where it is and fit this onto the top of it.
You will not need all those pulleys and tensioners, nor will you need to ever take the deck off !!.

I have had this system on my schooner, Bluenose for over 20 years , never, ever had any problems with it.
It will let you hold the main boom amidships, sheet out all the sheet, then gently pull the boom out fully, without ANY snagging !!.

Been there, Done that !!.

John.

www.john-dowd.co.uk
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: JayDee on September 07, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
Hello Mike,

When the winch drum turns inside the box, the line unwinds off the drum, IF, the line is being pulled by the sails, the line comes out of the box as you would expect it too.
But, when there is no pulling from the sails, the line stays inside the box, but it does not get tangled up, or get snagged under or over the edges of the winch drum.

It just lies there waiting to be pulled out by the sails !!.
And it works EVERY time !!.

The box is big enough to contain all of the line, which forms nice orderly loops which don't get tangled up!.
Try it on the bench, you will love it !!!.

John.  :-))  :-))  :-))
www.john-dowd.co.uk
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 07, 2012, 12:23:33 PM
John,

It's another thing I'd considered but decided against mainly because, unlike the system I've put in, I've absolutely no experience of putting a winch in like that, at least this way I know that hopefully it will work as I've used it for a long time with my one meters and marblehead !  :-)  Having said that, further down the line I may experiment with the concept to see how I get on with it as it obviously works well in yours and it's nice to try new things.

My main problem is that the existing hole in the deck is just three inches in total, which must include access for batteries, receiver etc. so I really don't have a lot of room to work with, to say the least. As it is I will just have enough room to make adjustments to the winch and change batteries when necessary and the rudder servo will just have to take it's chances ! At least I can take the deck of if necessary though so I do have a bit of fall back situation.
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: JayDee on September 07, 2012, 12:27:56 PM


Hello Mike,

I wish you Luck !!

John.  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 07, 2012, 02:53:57 PM
Thanks John, I'll need it and I may well give you a shout if I get stuck..  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 16, 2012, 10:44:39 AM
This week I've been fiddling about trying to work out what fittings I'll need and making or buying the same as well as making and varnishing temporary bowsprit, booms, hatch cover and aft piece.

As this yacht came as hull and mast only, I'm really winging it when it comes to designing parts. I'm basing the sails and rig on William Daniel's Babette so I'm using those dimensions to make the booms. I'm absolutely sure this had a bowsprit now but again, the length is just a guess and may well need re-designing when it's had it's first sail as may the booms themselves. Still you have to start somewhere.  {:-{

Next job I have to put the sheet leads through the deck and work out the final placing of the shroud racks etc. before the painting begins..  :-)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8455/7991242941_a1cf52514c_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on September 16, 2012, 11:05:30 AM
Oh and I tidied up the inside a bit, and have got hold of a receiver, charging harness and switch so I now need to get the battery pack that I'm going to use and get that fitted in, then the inside will be just about ready ....

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8176/7991304429_2a8f60c752_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on October 06, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
For Wayne, a quick photo of how the rudder lines emerge from the deck through fairleads....  :-)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8170/8059510354_593e078b1a_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: goBulawayo on October 06, 2012, 04:01:19 PM
Thanks Artistmike, Was looking at some of your other pics, was your gooseneck with the yacht or have you bought it recently? My kripsie plans show a homemade plastic fitting for the gooseneck support  but I prefer the idea of a metal fitting

Wayne
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on October 06, 2012, 04:07:46 PM
I am buying a few bits and pieces from these chaps http://www.nylet.co.uk/ (http://www.nylet.co.uk/)  but you'll also find things like the goosenecks here on Cornwall Model Boats.. http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut_yacht_fittings.html (http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut_yacht_fittings.html) down the page a bit ...
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 27, 2018, 01:02:06 PM
I've not been very well for a while but thankfully today was actually able to get back to the water at Ilfracombe and give this one it's first sail since I did the restoration. I'm glad to say that all went well,  even better than I could have hoped  to be honest and it sailed beautifully.... Well worth the wait....

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1824/29169279938_95f9f74159_o.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/837/29169279628_8563205505_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 27, 2018, 01:30:52 PM
Hi artistmike, well done she looks good.  Glad to hear you are OK now, I was reading the thread posts and suddenly realised I was on there as well.  The point I made about memory is obviously true!
kind regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 27, 2018, 03:46:17 PM
Thanks, yes a good bit better now, at least good enough to get down the lake and that's the main thing....  :}   I know what you mean about memory, I've far too many boats, chargers and batteries and if I didn't make notes about what goes where I'd be in a right old mess...

Still, it was lovely to get out and have a sail again, good for the soul this hobby.....
As she looks out of the water.....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4680/38759504514_257639d6ac_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 27, 2018, 05:24:36 PM
Hi nice piccys.  Is the mast mounted on the deck?  Was the bowsprit your idea?regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 27, 2018, 05:58:46 PM
Hi nice piccys.  Is the mast mounted on the deck?  Was the bowsprit your idea?regards Roy
No, the mast goes through the deck to the original brass mast mount in the bottom of the hull of the boat...

The current provisional bowsprit I made in order to try various positions for the jib, it's difficult to tell from the original deck what exactly the situation was and as the mast is fixed, I needed a way or trying out various positions for the jib tack, fore and aft, to balance these sails.

Having had a sail today it was fairly obvious that the tack needs moving even a bit more outboard from the position of the furthest position that I have at the moment,  so a bowsprit is definitely needed to get the best out of the boat, so I shall now have to make something more permanent and in keeping.
It's going to be for purely pleasure sailing so I'm not trying to conform to any rules and if it sails happier with a bowsprit than without, that's ok with me....  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 27, 2018, 08:14:43 PM
Hi, I always try and get the mast on the keel as it makes rigging so much easier and stiffens the mast as well.  I also try and get it to sit in a tube, not always easy but it can be easier to stop water ingress.

My first effort like this was with a wood mast which got wet and it took 3 weeks to get the mast out of the tube,  I now use interlocking tubes with the inner one around the mast base.
I am just adding a bowsprit to a yacht and for the same reasons of balancing the rig.
Happy days,
Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 28, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Hi, I always try and get the mast on the keel as it makes rigging so much easier and stiffens the mast as well.  I also try and get it to sit in a tube, not always easy but it can be easier to stop water ingress.

My first effort like this was with a wood mast which got wet and it took 3 weeks to get the mast out of the tube,  I now use interlocking tubes with the inner one around the mast base.
I am just adding a bowsprit to a yacht and for the same reasons of balancing the rig.
Happy days,
Roy
That's a very good idea about the tube, I have to dismount the mast and sails from the boat to get it all in the car so if it were to jam I'd be in real trouble so I'll try that modification when I next remove the deck to work on it...
When I fitted the bowsprit I was very careful to use the marks of the original holes in the deck, so that if it transpired that I didn't need it and could fit a standard jib rack instead, I could do it all without any cosmetic damage. Now that I know that I will need the bowsprit, I shall now make a better permanent one with the right placing for the tack of the jib. All part of the fun of restorations like these.  ..  :-)   Nylets were very helpful with the original research and as you can see, their sails have really made the boat look fantastic...
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/833/42154739735_68596d3890_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 28, 2018, 09:52:01 AM
Hi, I would not make the bowsprit a fixture on the deck. On the basis it is easier to make or repair a bowsprit than re-build the hull. Mine will always come free if knocked hard. 

The current build has a Samson post that has a 1/8th. dia peg with the bowsprit located in it.  I am thinking the 1/8th wood peg will sheer off on severe impact. I am just deciding  between having the bowsprit part of the hull or the rigging when storing the boat.  I store the rigging in a separate sails box to save damage and easy transport.  I have also been using plastic 'Christmas tree' storage boxes about 1.1 metres long for hulls. 
On one yacht I have the bowsies up at the top of the mast so they are at eye level when setting up at the lakeside. 

Have you got a wire or line from the bowsprit tip to the bow at water level to support the tension from the fore stay, my eyesight is not good enough to determine.

kind regards
Roy

Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 28, 2018, 02:32:48 PM
Good points on the bowsprit for when I come to build the final version, I shall definitely incorporate them into the design.... Have you got any photos for inspiration?  ...  :-)
I have sail transport boxes for my IOM boats that I shall use for taking these to the lake and I may well sort out a new transport box for this hull too...  Never ending isn't it...  :D
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 29, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
Hello Artist Mike lets see if the picture gets through!Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 29, 2018, 09:24:14 PM
Hi artist mike I am having trouble posting pictures will do text if I get it rightRoy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 29, 2018, 09:29:08 PM
Still tryingRoy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 29, 2018, 09:38:55 PM
Well all my fault I am afraid perhaps moderator can remove two of them?
Hi artist mike,
Anyway this is a pond yacht I restored a few years ago she was made by my friend John Cook (who died 5 years back) and then put side for 30 years!  All the string had rotted so all ropes and whipping was replaced the brasswork removed and cleaned and new hatch covers made.  Redid most things but managed to keep the original sails.  She is nearly 4 feet loa always gets interest on the lake.
She looks lovely on the water and sails very well, batteries last for a full afternoon.I will see what else I can find if you are interested.
regards Roy

Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on June 30, 2018, 09:57:55 AM
I will see what else I can find if you are interested.
regards Roy
Yes that's a lovely looking craft, you've made a great job of the restoration and I expect she looks fantastic under sail, I'd love to see more of her if you have any more photos ....  :-)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 30, 2018, 08:31:20 PM
Restoration of Eleanor
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on June 30, 2018, 08:40:38 PM
Hello artist mike, here is what she looked like when I first had her.  She is about 30 inches loa and was made by the father of a lady who subsequently became a club member.  The boat was made during WW 2 as a semiscale fishing boat. 

I fitted her with an off set propellor and radio and brought her back to life.  The way I do it is to have a weekly contact with pictures on email and any points of how to progress are with the owner. Overall we decided to rebuild her the way her father would have done if he were here today.  She sailed very nicely in moderate winds. It worked out well and I was sad to see her go.regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 01, 2018, 05:03:25 PM
A really lovely job that Roy, you must have been thrilled to get that sailing on the water again... A credit to you and the original builder. Just ensuring that these boats continue to have a life, has to be a very worthwhile occupation...
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on July 01, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
Hi artistmike, thanks for your remarks.  I do enjoy getting the old boats working again.  It gives me a lot of pleasure. There was second  one of these boats the same size but in blue more like a yacht.  In both cases when the paint was stripped away the wood was in excellent condition but the blue one had no hatch.  So I took off a deck house and drilled a hole and put the club endoscope in to have a look, it was as new inside.  The endoscope is used to inspect loco boilers for defects. I think he had used Humbrol paints as I matched the original colours without problem.

When I first went to see the couple I was talking to the husband and after 5 minutes he said it was no good talking to him his wife was the technical one.  He was all hail fellow well met etc don't think he knew much, except how to earn money!  She was a Physics and maths teacher at the local private secondary school.
But when we all got to know him, taught him how to drive a 5 inch gauge loco he was a lot of fun.
These days we all have the ability to restore to better than the original, our materials and glues etc are excellent.  However I am still gearing myself up for the 100+ years old yacht I have upstairs!
But I do have a very fragile 36R a lot like Playaway from about 1938 to practice on.  Just a shell and a wobbly lead casting in the keel.  It looks nice and I have some old gear from a 10 Rater, sails, spars and am looking for a mast to try and keep it contemporary.  I have some nice looking vane gears but I think I shall just fit radio.
kind regards Roy
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: Artistmike on July 02, 2018, 08:17:10 PM
However I am still gearing myself up for the 100+ years old yacht I have upstairs!
I've got one like that to attempt... !!!..... I'll take some better photos over the day or so but this is it below, it's an amazing hull but I have very little information as to rigging etc, though I get the feeling it may actually be a French.
The hull is big, wide, deep and hollow so I get the feeling it would carry a good bit of sail. The bowsprit is broken, so I have no idea how big that should be and all sails and spars are missing... A doodle then ! ..  :embarrassed: Any ideas much appreciated...

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/843/28288683097_36194b3c52_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
Post by: roycv on July 02, 2018, 08:42:45 PM
Hi Mike, wow!  I can see a bowsprit that looks about right but what are the measurements?  Can you do another photo showing the deck?  My 'oldie' is in better shape with a deck.  Yachts of this age were mainly gaff rigged, the bowsprit suggests 2 jibs.  It looks like there is a complete keel.  The aft part of the keel looks like it might go on to have a rudder but only if there are signs of one having been there.  Frequently the rudder was sitting on its own as near the stern as possible.
Is it bread and butter construction?  Or perhaps solid?  After a long look I get the feeling she is about 2 feet long
  Assuming there is a deck does it come off?  Do you have a place where the mast should be?  Are there indications as to whether it had Braine steering?

There are quite a lot of photos on the net of gentlemen with their yachts which might help.  If you can put together a few more photographs send them to Russel Potts of the vintage Model Yacht Group, he is a fount of knowledge, but make sure you have all the dimensions.  He is very good with the old commercial market as well.

More please!kind regardsRoy